After tensions, Rubio meets the Pope | DW News

0:00 US Secretary of State Marco Rubio has visited Pope Leo in Rome.

0:04 The meeting follows a public spat between the Pope

0:07 and US President Trump over the war in Iran.

0:10 Rubio's trip is widely seen or viewed as an effort to bridge that divide.

0:17 The US Secretary of State Marco Rubio puts his best diplomatic

0:22 foot forward as he seeks to reset Washington's relationship with the Pontiff.

0:27 It follows a torrid period of criticism between President Trump

0:31 and the first American Pope principally over the US's war with Iran.

0:35 What do you get someone who has everything?

0:37 I thought I basically said that uh the message of the church my message,

0:42 the message of the gospel, blessed are the peacemakers.

0:46 I do not look at my role as being political, politician.

0:50 I don't want to get into a debate with him.

0:53 I don't think that the message of the gospel is meant

0:56 to be abused in the way that some people are doing.

0:59 Basta with the idolatry of Enough of the idolatry of self and money.

1:04 Basta Enough of the display of power.

1:07 Basta Enough of war.

1:10 In these challenging times

1:11 In recent months, the president has conducted prayer meetings

1:14 in the Oval Office with himself at the center.

1:18 Called the Pope weak on crime on social media

1:21 and hit out at the Pontiff while speaking to the press.

1:25 He's a man that doesn't think that we should uh be voting

1:30 with a country that wants a nuclear weapon so they can blow up the world.

1:34 I'm not I'm not a fan of Pope Leo.

1:37 Later that same evening the president posted this picture

1:41 of himself widely interpreted as depicting himself as Jesus.

1:47 example Trump denied this accusation and instead said he was supposed

1:52 to be a doctor before going on to once again attack Pope Leo.

1:58 Will you apologize?

1:59 No, I don't because Pope Leo said things that are wrong.

2:03 Uh he was very much against what I'm doing

2:05 with with regard to Iran and you cannot have a nuclear Iran.

2:09 Pope Leo would not be happy with the end result.

2:12 You have hundreds of millions of people dead.

2:15 The US ambassador to the Holy See described

2:18 the conversation between the Pope and Rubio as frank.

2:22 But whether relations can truly be reset now largely rests with the president.

2:30 And if he can refrain from his critical

2:32 outbursts and late-night posts depicting himself as the almighty.

2:38 And joining me now is David Gibson.

2:40 He's director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University.

2:43 He is one of America's leading observers of religion and politics.

2:48 Mr.

2:48 Gibson, it's good to have you with us.

2:49 Let me just start by getting your read of this.

2:52 Why is Secretary of State Marco Rubio Why is he paying a visit to the Vatican?

2:56 Why is he meeting with the Pope?

3:00 It's damage control, basically.

3:02 I mean after after his boss, President Trump,

3:05 went on the attack, unprovoked attack against Pope Leo with his comments.

3:10 Um it's been downhill for relations between the US and and the Vatican.

3:15 And you know, why Donald Trump would do something like this, no one can answer.

3:19 You'd need a a psychologist to answer that.

3:22 But the effects have been real and have been bad at a time

3:26 when Donald Trump cannot afford to uh wage more unnecessary wars with anybody.

3:34 The Vatican says that this meeting was requested by Washington.

3:38 I mean, what does that tell us about the current

3:40 state of relations between the Trump administration and the Holy See?

3:46 Well, it it clearly shows that the Trump

3:49 administration wanted to come with an olive branch.

3:52 They They realized that they were getting They were not winning this fight.

3:57 They were losing on every even among their own base.

4:00 You have to understand, you know,

4:01 white Catholics are almost as supportive of Donald Trump

4:06 and Maga as white evangelicals in the United States.

4:10 So, losing the white anything that erodes that white

4:13 Catholic base in the United States is politically dangerous,

4:17 very dangerous for the Trump administration.

4:20 So, they needed to do something to reach out

4:23 to the Vatican and to try and calm the waters at least.

4:27 You know, you you you talk about the Catholics in the United States.

4:30 Marco Rubio, he arrives not just as America's top diplomat,

4:34 but he's also a practicing Catholic himself.

4:37 Uh how much does that matter in a meeting like this, do you think?

4:42 Well, it's good.

4:43 Um it can That can cut both ways.

4:45 Uh the Vice President, J.D.

4:48 Vance, is a practicing Catholic.

4:50 And but he tends to hold his Catholicism so

4:54 tight that he uses it to argue with the Pope.

4:58 Marco Rubio is a cradle Catholic.

5:00 J.D.

5:00 Vance is a convert, interestingly.

5:03 Marco Rubio is a cradle Catholic from originally of Cuban extraction.

5:08 So, I think he has a let's say a better visceral

5:10 understanding of the Catholic culture and diplomacy and how these things work.

5:18 And he's going there not to pick a fight

5:20 with the Pope or to argue with the Pope.

5:23 Um he's a diplomat.

5:24 Um so, I think he has a better understanding of it.

5:26 It's interesting that in this whole past 2 weeks of Trump versus the Pope,

5:31 Rubio has not weighed in.

5:33 J.D.

5:33 Vance has.

5:34 So, Rubio is the one to send.

5:37 Rubio is the one to send.

5:39 Is Marco Rubio, in your opinion,

5:41 is he going just as America's top diplomat or is he

5:45 going there as a politician who we know has presidential um designs?

5:52 It Does this make him look more presidential candidate-like?

5:58 I mean, is this grooming him to replace maybe Donald Trump?

6:04 Absolutely.

6:05 You cannot separate this visit or frankly anything

6:09 that's happening going to be happening in the next

6:12 two and three years leading up

6:13 to the 2028 presidential election from the personal ambitions.

6:19 Who's going to succeed Donald Trump?

6:21 And look, it's between two Catholics.

6:23 Vice President J.D.

6:24 Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

6:28 And uh this this this visit certainly furnishes

6:33 Rubio's credentials with Catholic voters in the United States.

6:38 Let me go back just to, you know, the the background for this meeting.

6:43 The Vatican's basically Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin,

6:48 effectively what it's like the Holy See's top diplomat,

6:53 a lot of foreign minister, if you will.

6:55 He has called Trump's attacks on the Pope, and he's used the word strange.

7:01 In Vatican language, how significant is that comment,

7:05 the use of the word strange?

7:06 I mean, it's not something that the the Vatican throws around.

7:11 No, and it's Look, the Vatican has been around for centuries.

7:15 Vatican diplomacy has been around for centuries.

7:18 They're very good at this.

7:21 Donald Trump is such a an oddity.

7:25 Even the Vatican is at a loss for how to characterize this.

7:30 They want to talk in standard diplomatic language.

7:34 They want to speak in ways that you know,

7:39 of international law and international norms,

7:42 and a way to calm the waters and to get things done.

7:45 So, they're really at a loss and they don't want to dignify what Trump is doing,

7:51 that kind of rhetoric.

7:53 They want to dismiss it.

7:54 They want to put things on a whole different level, which Marco Rubio does.

7:58 But again, you have to understand,

8:00 whatever comes out of this meeting between Rubio and the Pope,

8:04 Donald Trump could blow it up with a post on Truth Social 5 minutes later.

8:09 Mhm.

8:10 Would you say that Pope Leo is particularly well equipped though to to deal

8:17 with President Trump by the simple fact that he is also an American?

8:22 Absolutely, and there is no doubt that the one thing

8:25 in in Trump's initial attack a couple of weeks ago,

8:27 he said, "Pope Leo owes his election to me." I

8:31 don't know what he meant by that, but you know,

8:32 in some ways I was at the I was at the conclave last year,

8:36 a year ago, uh that elected uh Cardinal Prevost, Chicagoan, as as Pope Leo.

8:44 And some of the some of the cardinals, especially from the Southern Hemisphere,

8:48 said, "We want an American who can speak the same language to Trump,

8:53 who can stand up to Trump." So, there is a degree that the cardinals did want

8:57 someone who understands America and who can speak to Americans.

9:01 And with Pope Francis, the Argentine Pope,

9:04 a lot of American conservatives would say, "Oh, he's just a he's a Latino.

9:09 He doesn't understand America, and he just speaks off the cuff.

9:13 He just shoots his mouth off." You can't say that about Pope Leo.

9:18 Pope Leo is a very careful American who, when he speaks, says what he means.

9:25 Let me ask you, before we run out of time here,

9:27 if we get beyond the the accusations and the maybe personal animosity here,

9:32 Pope Leo has spoken repeatedly about peace, migration, and moral responsibility.

9:38 Is this becoming more than a political disagreement?

9:42 I mean, is it now a deeper moral and theological

9:45 clash that we see between the the Pope and the President?

9:53 Yes, I think that's exactly right.

9:54 And I've I've written a a piece recently

9:56 about what I call a kind of new Americanism.

9:59 This isn't just about personalities.

10:02 This a clash of personalities is not just about particular policies or this war.

10:07 This is a larger problem that's been emerging in the American

10:11 Catholic Church where they just don't disagree with the Pope.

10:17 They disrespect the Pope.

10:19 They don't just dissent.

10:21 They dismiss what the Pope says,

10:24 and not just the Pope, what Catholic teaching is.

10:26 Pope Leo is not just speaking as himself.

10:29 He's representing an entire Catholic tradition

10:32 and 1.4 billion Catholics around the world.

10:36 American Catholics don't realize that they're just 5% of the global church.

10:41 And they're kind of putting themselves over and above everyone else.

10:46 And that's a real, as you say, theological problem that will last after

10:50 this Rubio visit and after Donald Trump.

10:54 Mr.

10:54 Gibson, we appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today.

10:57 Fascinating getting your your take on this.

10:59 Thank you.