Awkward Money Conversations 😬💰 Couples Therapy

0:00 There are things you spend on.

0:01 I don't.

0:02 And it's another x amount here, and another x amount there.

0:05 And we don't have conversations about that.

0:07 All of a sudden, I see wow, $700 out in the bank.

0:09 Where did that go?

0:10 What are you talking about?

0:11 You went to get your eyes tested last couple weeks ago and you spent $700.

0:14 But you know it's once a year that I go in and get my eyes checked.

0:17 I'm not going to justify that.

0:18 I'm not.

0:19 And this is where I get angry.

0:21 [AMBIENT MUSIC] In the very beginning,

0:26 it was like I was her assistant because I didn't have— like,

0:31 I was figuring my shit out job wise.

0:35 It's not like we had a conversation and I'm like, you're my assistant.

0:38 No, I didn't say that.

0:40 But that's how you treated me.

0:43 But since you're not the one making money,

0:46 then— Then I should be doing— You should help.

0:48 It was expected that, like, I was going to get up every morning before

0:51 her, and make the coffee and give it to her.

0:53 And when she came home from work,

0:54 I was going to have dinner on the table and, like,

0:56 I was going to do all the laundry and, like,

0:59 that I was going to be there to do everything.

1:01 I don't think that's totally true.

1:03 I think there was a bit of, like, I'm trying to help us survive and, like,

1:12 get this new job, and make money, and I needed help.

1:19 [SIGHS] We have struggled with this.

1:25 I felt to an extent that yes, if someone's going to sacrifice some time,

1:31 it makes sense for the person who's not earning close, like, close to as much,

1:40 like, not even close to as— like, it was not in the grand scheme of things,

1:44 wasn't earning, wasn't keeping us afloat even in the slightest.

1:49 That made sense.

1:51 I have— But there's not— I mean, you didn't invent that paradigm,

1:55 right, that money equals power,

1:58 and money equals some privilege in the relationship.

2:01 And it is something that we have— we have— we have talked through,

2:04 and I have worked on.

2:06 And it has been very, very, very hard to switch that mindset.

2:13 In the past, I would say entitlement, yes.

2:17 Today, it's— I just feel like it kind of comes

2:23 from a place of I don't know how to keep up.

2:28 I am— I'm nervous when there's dishes around.

2:41 Because you don't want to do them.

2:43 Can I ask a question?

2:44 I mean, like, it's not because I don't want to do them.

2:47 I don't mind doing the dishes.

2:49 I just— I just don't have that much time that often, and I don't know.

2:57 And maybe you don't feel like it's your job,

3:02 because you're more of the breadwinner.

3:05 Ding, ding, ding.

3:08 If we're working— let me ask you this.

3:09 If you and I are both working the same amount of hours,

3:13 whose responsibility is it to clean the house and to make sure shit gets done?

3:18 Ideally, we should both split it.

3:21 When does that happen.

3:22 Can I just ask?

3:23 I know it's not a PC question to ask,

3:27 but— and does it matter how much money each person is bringing?

3:32 I think, in my gut, I feel like, yeah.

3:42 It— I met him when I was 21.

3:49 Three months later, we got married.

3:51 When we first got married, there was good and there was bad.

3:54 Big picture items we're on the same page about, like how to raise our children,

3:58 the fact that we both were Jewish and were Orthodox,

4:02 so we agree on everything having to do with that.

4:06 But over the course of the last few years,

4:09 things have definitely become more difficult.

4:12 I've been very disappointed with, like, where we are now,

4:16 and— Where you are as far as?

4:20 Everything.

4:21 Like, where we are financially, where we are as a couple, where we are sexually.

4:26 Like, I want to be pregnant yesterday.

4:28 I ask him that all the time.

4:29 You know, I ask him, when am I going to have another baby, Michael?

4:31 Well, we can't afford one right now, unless I do something.

4:34 So I'm constantly walking around with all of this resentment,

4:38 and all this anger, and all this frustration.

4:41 So, and I feel like, ultimately, the reason for that is I blame him.

4:47 Because if he were different, then the situation would be different.

4:50 If he acted differently,

4:51 if he acted accordingly— Then he would deliver the life you— Yeah,

4:54 he would deliver the life that I want.

4:57 So what happened?

4:59 Why am I answering all the questions?

5:01 Maybe you can pipe in.

5:03 Well, what happened?

5:04 What happened?

5:05 Why have I not satisfied her every desire?

5:08 You know what happened?

5:09 He happened.

5:10 [LAUGHING] See, that's not a nice way to introduce me.

5:14 [LAUGHING] I mean, my general perspective on marriage is more that, like,

5:21 it's two people trying to make it through life together as partners.

5:26 And they're each contributing whatever they can

5:28 in whatever way they can to get through it.

5:30 You know what that sounds like to me?

5:32 When he says that, is I'm hearing, that is what a lazy person would say.

5:36 Oh, you know what it is?

5:37 It's that every individual, it's like socialism.

5:40 So we're in a socialist cooperative now, and every person has to contribute.

5:44 I feel like socialism isn't the worst model.

5:46 I'm sure you feel that way.

5:47 Every person has to contribute equally.

5:49 Can you both slow it down?

5:50 I'm the person that's screwed over by it because I'm the person

5:54 that's contributing on every front so much more than you are.

5:57 Just to be clear, that's total nonsense.

6:01 No, it isn't.

6:02 One second.

6:03 I'm not doing anything towards improving our future?

6:07 I'm doing more than should— How do you measure

6:10 when you're doing enough and when I'm not doing enough?

6:12 Because all I expect of you is literally one thing, and you don't do that thing.

6:15 What is that one thing?

6:17 Support me so that I don't have to work.

6:19 That's kind of a big umbrella to throw things under.

6:21 You're right.

6:22 It's so hard because I'm demanding billions of dollars out of you.

6:26 So it's just a number?

6:27 There's a number somewhere?

6:27 I expect this of you?

6:28 It's not a number.

6:29 Call me when you've got it.

6:31 I don't know.

6:32 It feels like a little bit like a ransom, honestly.

6:34 OK, well, if you're not willing to pay it,

6:36 then maybe you should be married to someone else.

6:38 Is that a healthy dynamic?

6:39 Say, like— I don't care.

6:41 I'm so tired of having these conversations with you.

6:43 Mihal, Mihal.

6:46 I'm just, I'm so exhausted.

6:48 But you're partially exhausted because you are working so hard.

6:53 You don't need to do all of it.

6:55 But you're here with me.

6:57 I can't sit back.

6:58 You're here with me.

6:59 --driver's seat.

7:00 Can I ask you to pause?

7:01 Sure.

7:03 What do you think about that?

7:05 I would say that she's probably that I have a laissez faire attitude,

7:11 and I'm just generally comfortable with how things are.

7:15 I just think that life is more manageable if you enjoy it.

7:22 And I think that anyone who doesn't take it as a priority

7:24 is just going to fail miserably in one way or another.

7:31 How are you feeling?

7:32 Very, very angry.

7:34 I've enabled you to relax and enjoy your life for the last decade,

7:37 and now it's time for you to get up

7:39 off your ass and start doing something and stop relaxing.

7:42 Grow your damn law firm.

7:44 I am working on that.

7:45 I haven't seen you do anything.

7:46 I feel so exhausted by this marriage.

7:49 We had our daughter's birthday party on Saturday, so it was a lot.

7:55 Wait, how old is she?

7:56 She's turning six on Thursday.

7:58 Yeah.

7:59 I think the kids had fun.

8:00 It was a costume party.

8:04 It definitely caused a little— a little rift between us, I think.

8:08 What happened?

8:09 I mean, I think that it was, like, a little overpriced.

8:11 I think that it probably cost three grand

8:14 or something like that all in, with the magician,

8:17 and the cotton candy, and the food for everybody.

8:20 But I think that it was one of those situations where, like,

8:23 she was planning a lot of it and feels alone, and thinks I don't care.

8:29 And I feel like she's just— Keeping you out.

8:33 She wants me to collaborate, but doesn't really— --show that you.

8:37 I want you to come to me for once and be like,

8:39 what we doing for Liz's birth— You both have this issue of, like,

8:42 I want the other one to come to me.

8:43 Yeah, but even, like, after the party,

8:46 Nick laid on the couch and watched a movie,

8:48 and I cleaned up everything after this huge party.

8:53 And he just, like, watched me and didn't help me.

8:56 And I got really mad.

8:57 And that was, like, the fight.

8:58 We spent three grand,

8:59 and now it's on me to figure out how we're going to pay for all of that.

9:04 The party was covered with cash,

9:06 so it's a different— The party was covered in cash?

9:08 What do you mean?

9:09 Well, like, we paid for the party.

9:10 Like, it's not like— Literally, we were paying for the party out of my business

9:13 account and then pulling out of our other account until,

9:16 like, things were getting extremely low.

9:18 We were just pulling money willy nilly.

9:20 But it wasn't, like, credit.

9:21 I'm not saying, like— I'm saying the party was covered.

9:24 By who?

9:25 By what?

9:26 What do you mean covered?

9:27 It was paid for by, yes, by your business account.

9:30 I'm saying, and then you have to figure out how to, like,

9:33 put the money back into the account.

9:35 Well, what prevents the two of you from planning,

9:38 for example, how much you want to spend on this party?

9:43 I didn't even know Nick wanted to set a budget.

9:45 Like, he knows— he does things at the last minute sometimes.

9:49 Why doesn't she know?

9:51 That I want to set a budget?

9:52 I don't know.

9:52 I don't understand that answer.

9:53 Did you talk to me before— no, you said after— No,

9:57 I talked to you throughout the whole thing.

9:59 I talked to you throughout the whole thing.

10:00 What gets in the way of negotiating, like, figuring it out together?

10:05 I don't know.

10:06 I'm much tighter with it.

10:07 Like— But if you're tighter after.

10:11 Oh, wait, what do you mean?

10:12 If you were tight in advance, you'd say, no,

10:15 not this magician, or no, not this cotton candy.

10:19 Right, but I did kind of say that.

10:22 What do you mean kind of?

10:23 I said I canceled the cotton candy machine.

10:25 So then it's made to make it be like, oh, I'm the one taking away their joy.

10:30 I didn't— You're the one saying we need a budget.

10:34 You don't— you're not comfortable with that.

10:36 It's just a complicated dynamic where I'm put in a position to, like,

10:41 be the—- The bad guy?

10:43 The cop.

10:44 I mean, I think Nick grew up with a lot of, like,

10:46 this dynamic between his parents watching them, like, fight about money.

10:51 And, like, I think he felt very much in the middle

10:54 of that, and sort of— We do want to hear something about your history,

11:00 but, I mean, would this be a good moment to shift to that?

11:05 Sure.

11:07 So tell.

11:09 Yeah, just go?

11:10 Just go.

11:11 [LAUGHS] Um, OK.

11:15 Do I want to crack this egg, is my question.

11:19 Well, what's the— I just I don't know if I really

11:24 want to— I want to be careful about what I say.

11:28 Got it.

11:31 My mom's not here anymore.

11:32 My mom passed away.

11:33 My dad is.

11:34 Right.

11:35 And, like, there's a lot of really complicated stuff towards the end

11:40 of her life going on that I was in the middle of.

11:42 There was, like, a lot of sadness.

11:44 When do you think she started to get sad?

11:47 To me, it was, like, my teenage years, and it was my fault.

11:52 That's how I've seen it for a long time.

11:55 How would it have been your fault?

11:57 I don't know.

11:58 Like, doing drugs, and going out with my friends,

12:01 and, like, being a kid in a lot of ways.

12:06 I don't feel like she was, like,

12:09 polluted with sadness throughout her whole life.

12:11 I feel like it came with the pressure of sort of the lack of what

12:17 she'd hoped for, which was that someone was going to take care of her.

12:20 And she ended up having to in her own way, take care of everybody else.

12:24 And that made her tired, and made her angry, and sad, and all of those things.

12:31 And that eventually ate her up.

12:33 Could that be why you don't feel comfortable saying, we can't afford this?

12:38 Is why?

12:40 I mean, I should get what you're saying, but I'm not getting.

12:43 Meaning you have the story of your mom, who, at least in her mind,

12:49 if someone provided her with what she needed,

12:52 she wouldn't get depressed, and get sick and die.

12:58 So how could you ever, like, say no cotton candy?

13:03 Terrible things could happen to you.

13:07 [SOFT MUSIC] I'm somebody who tries to anticipate problems.

13:13 And because I'm the one who anticipates the problems,

13:17 I end up just doing everything.

13:20 And I think the task list became so long once the kids arrived,

13:26 that I gradually developed just an enormous amount

13:30 of rage and how much I had to do.

13:33 Jessica, I think, has an— if you're OK with me speaking about

13:36 what I think the issue has been for you— you look so angry.

13:39 Mm-hmm.

13:41 You're feeling angry?

13:44 Well, maybe we should slow down.

13:47 Finish your thought.

13:48 Oh, no.

13:48 Hold on.

13:49 Just say what has angered you.

13:52 Boris's narrative of my competence and ability

13:56 at different times in my life is very unfair.

14:00 So describe.

14:02 Boris, I did all those things in my life before I met you.

14:08 And there are reasons why you ended up doing

14:12 a lot of the things that you ended up doing.

14:15 Tell.

14:16 Boris does not like me to go grocery

14:19 shopping because I shop very differently than he does.

14:22 It's not efficient.

14:23 It's not economical.

14:24 We used to just shorthand it by saying the tomatoes,

14:27 because I once went and I bought some tomatoes that were very expensive.

14:31 And this was proof that I could not do it to his standards,

14:37 and therefore, he must always do it.

14:39 Are there other areas like that?

14:44 I hate the way that this makes me sound.

14:48 How would you characterize grocery shopping?

14:51 Who gives a fuck about the grocery shopping?

14:54 It's such a small part of the overall issue.

14:56 Yes, we can talk about why I would go

15:00 the extra block to buy tomatoes that are as good.

15:03 I don't want to buy shitty tomatoes.

15:05 I want to buy nice tomatoes.

15:06 But if you can get them for $1 less per pound a block away,

15:10 I would go with that block.

15:11 That is the person I am.

15:12 That is the place that I come from.

15:14 I want tools to figure out how to be cool with what she decides

15:19 to do about the tomatoes and the 1

15:21 million things the tomatoes are a metaphor for.

15:24 Can you guys tell me about a few more things just so I'll get a sense of it?

15:28 Boris finds me to be forgetful, unreliable, flighty,

15:35 unable to concentrate, generally not trustworthy, not in, like,

15:40 I'm a bad person, but I can't trust that if

15:43 I ask Jessica to do something that it will get done.

15:46 Therefore, I must do all things by myself.

15:49 Do you see any of that in you, or is that— I can say that that has

15:55 never been my role in any previous relationship.

15:59 But there's something about this relationship where I've been

16:03 shifted into a role that is a mystery to me.

16:06 I don't know why I'm this person in his mind and in this relationship.

16:13 Do you want to try talking about finances?

16:15 Sure.

16:17 Go ahead.

16:17 We know the answer.

16:18 We need to make more income.

16:19 That's the answer.

16:20 We can't cut back on anything because there's not nothing to cut back on.

16:23 We need to bring in more.

16:25 There are things you spend on that I don't,

16:27 and it's another x amount here, another x amount there.

16:30 And just, we don't have conversations about that.

16:32 All of a sudden, I see, wow, $700 out in the bank.

16:35 Where'd that go?

16:35 What are you talking about?

16:36 You went to get your eyes tested last couple of weeks ago, and you spent $700.

16:39 But you know it's once a year that I go and I get my eyes checked.

16:42 I'm not going to justify that.

16:44 I'm not.

16:45 And this is where I get angry because this is where,

16:47 like, that's the conversation we're having?

16:49 It just came up.

16:50 It wasn't conscious.

16:51 I wasn't— What conversation do you want to be having?

16:54 You wanted to talk about money, and here's a conversation about money.

16:57 It just— So why didn't you talk to me about it then?

16:59 Why did you have to wait?

17:00 Like, if there's something bothering you— So if

17:03 you want Rod to talk to you more, you have to make the conversations inviting.

17:11 OK.

17:13 If you're going to keep being angry,

17:15 you're not going to have that thing you want.

17:22 What triggered the anger?

17:24 Because I've taken a lot of time away to be with our daughter.

17:28 And I don't regret one minute.

17:30 I'm thrilled that I've been home.

17:33 But we lost a lot of money when I was home.

17:39 So now it's like catch up.

17:45 But it sounds like you're regretful for the last decade.

17:48 [SIGHS] And then when he says something like that, I

17:51 just— I'm not interested to talk to him about it because,

17:54 like, it— because it is so— it's so condescending.

17:58 You're in a job, so I'm frustrated.

18:08 I just feel like it's the same dialogue over and over again.

18:13 Years of it, because I feel like it's so suppressed for so long on the reality,

18:18 on how much it hurts.

18:22 What hurts?

18:30 I don't know what I'm saying.

18:31 I don't.

18:32 I agree.

18:33 I really don't.

18:34 I don't know how to communicate.

18:36 I don't know what to say.

18:38 I just think that you can apply yourself so much more, and you don't.

18:44 And maybe this is who you are.

18:46 And like, this is who I am, anxious and angry over performance.

18:53 Over whose performance?

18:54 Rod's, because I didn't have a performance.

18:58 I took too much time off, and that's what I'm angry at.

19:02 I'm angry at myself.

19:03 Yeah.

19:05 That's it.

19:06 I mean, that's so honest.

19:09 I can't be anymore honest.

19:12 And yes, I expect a lot from you.

19:14 Over the last decade, that's how old her daughter is.

19:16 I've stepped five— What did you just hear Allison say?

19:20 But he didn't.

19:21 Hold on.

19:22 Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

19:23 What did you just hear Allison say?

19:24 She's admitted that she's upset with herself for taking so much time off.

19:27 Yeah.

19:28 And that's obviously, you know, true and deep.

19:30 And hard.

19:31 Yeah.

19:32 But I didn't acknowledge that.

19:33 I heard it, but I didn't acknowledge it.

19:35 Right.

19:37 But also, because of that, we have an awesome kid and you're an awesome mom.

19:41 So you have to also give yourself a Pat on the back

19:43 for, you know— it might not be in the bank,

19:44 but it's certainly in life experiences.

19:46 That's great, but not the point.

19:49 Thank you.

19:51 No, it's not.

19:52 Doesn't feel good.

19:59 [DOG WHIMPERING] I feel the same way, Nico.

20:03 If I could lay on the floor, I would do the same.

20:05 I would do the same exact thing right now on the sisal rug.

20:09 I would lay right like that.

20:11 Now that's how I feel.

20:12 [POSITIVE MUSIC]