Neuro-Spicy: Discussing ADHD with Dr. Kristin Carothers | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

0:00 But this is my ADHD as well, When I'm in a dirty car,

0:04 like a car that has everything in it,

0:07 all I can see and hear is the trash moving while you're driving.

0:12 So I don't know if you've ever taken the time to do it.

0:14 Don't because it will throw you like depending on what

0:16 type of car you have while you're driving around the like,

0:19 the sand is jumping in the mud.

0:22 It's like you don't see it, like bouncing.

0:24 And then you see on the dashboard,

0:25 it's like a little colony of dirt that's celebrating at every stoplight.

0:29 Doesn't bother you like, no.

0:30 And then and then and then there's a plastic.

0:32 Cup that rattles at every turn, at.

0:34 Every stop.

0:35 And I'm like, how are you living like this?

0:37 I got go, are you living.

0:38 Like this extra pair of socks?

0:40 Oh no.

0:41 No.

0:41 Oh.

0:42 Nice knife.

0:42 Just in case somebody tries to run up on me.

0:46 I have, like, one of those things that you crack the window.

0:49 I get it now.

0:51 Like I'm in this pocket.

0:52 And then in the middle pocket I have.

0:54 Lotion and contact lens solution and an inhaler and like, oh my God.

0:58 And then you open this door.

0:59 There might be, like a greeting.

1:01 Card in case I'm.

1:02 Going to a birthday party.

1:03 And I see you in the car.

1:04 Wow.

1:05 Wow.

1:05 I make up like, if I don't get a chance to put on makeup in the morning.

1:08 Yeah, there's foundation on my steering wheel.

1:10 I shouldn't be proud to say it, but it's just.

1:12 Like it's a like.

1:14 It's like it's okay.

1:15 It's.

1:20 This is what now with Trevor Noah.

1:33 Well, Doctor Carruthers, thank you for joining us.

1:34 Thank you.

1:35 Podcast.

1:36 You're a clinical psychologist?

1:38 Yes.

1:38 Just to set the scene for for, like, the conversation I wanted to have today.

1:41 Help me break down what you do and how it applies to ADHD.

1:45 Okay.

1:45 I'm a clinical psychologist.

1:47 And when you work with children and adolescents,

1:50 one of the predominant disorders or mental health presentations

1:53 you're going to work with is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

1:56 Yeah.

1:57 And so for me I diagnose ADHD.

2:01 And it's three forms.

2:03 I provide intervention and I do consultation

2:06 or coaching of parents when it comes to kids.

2:10 Now, my practice has taken a bit of a turn,

2:13 and I work a lot with adults who have just learned I had ADHD,

2:17 or they have it and I'm teaching them how to manage,

2:20 like parenting and having a relationship and having a career

2:24 while you're trying to also live a life with ADHD.

2:28 Does does everyone have ADHD?

2:30 We all have characteristics,

2:33 but that does not mean we meet clinical criteria for the.

2:37 Diagnosis, but we meet tick tock criteria.

2:39 We definitely meet.

2:40 I mean, we.

2:41 And.

2:41 Everybody everyone has ADHD.

2:43 Yes.

2:43 Explain the difference because some people actually dismiss the validity

2:47 of ADHD as a diagnosis that like, well, everyone has.

2:51 And then some people inflate it the other way and they go like,

2:54 oh, I definitely have it.

2:55 And I'll say, no, you're just disorganized.

2:57 So first of all, what is it that you have?

2:59 Because there are three different forms.

3:01 Okay.

3:01 So there's hyperactive impulsive presentation.

3:04 Hyperactive impulsive.

3:05 And what does that look like?

3:06 That looks like you are always on the go, Energizer bunny.

3:10 You keep going and going and going.

3:12 You talk nonstop.

3:13 You're doing 15 different projects.

3:15 You are, moving from one topic to the next.

3:18 You're running when you should be walking.

3:20 If you're a little kid, you're climbing when it's dangerous to climb,

3:23 you're just acting before you think.

3:26 Can this be presented like so?

3:27 I know with some people it's like the persistent tapping.

3:30 Is that.

3:31 The high?

3:32 Okay, so that hyperactivity.

3:33 Like they need to be constantly moving or they

3:35 can't sit still in a chair for a while.

3:37 So people can be anxious and do that.

3:39 People can do that.

3:39 So there can be lots of different functions of certain behaviors.

3:42 So that's another thing like the tapping doesn't mean you have ADHD,

3:45 but what you will find is that people with ADHD tend to be a little bit louder.

3:49 They tend to move their bodies more.

3:52 They tend to have difficulty being aware of, like their body,

3:57 and that their bodies are moving and that sometimes is restless energy.

4:00 But that can you can also see that for people who have like anxiety,

4:03 then you have the inattentive presentation,

4:05 which is like space cadet, you are forgetting things.

4:08 You're losing things.

4:09 You're drifting off into space.

4:11 You're supposed to be focused on one task and before you know it,

4:14 like Bonnie runs across your path and you like.

4:18 Yeah, but I mean.

4:18 Everyone should look at the brain.

4:20 I always worry about people who don't look at the money.

4:23 If you're living your life and a buddy runs across your pocket,

4:25 you don't look at the bunny.

4:26 Who are you?

4:27 Who are you?

4:28 What life are you living?

4:29 I don't know, but it's not a good one.

4:31 And so you got.

4:33 Hyperactive, impulsive type.

4:34 You got inattentive presentation and then the third is the combination.

4:38 Of all three.

4:39 Oh, the big boss.

4:40 Who?

4:40 The big boss, which is where in some settings are hyperactive, impulsive.

4:45 And those same settings.

4:46 You might be inattentive.

4:47 And this is when you see people really start to struggle

4:51 and you have to have disruption in social and occupational functioning.

5:00 What that means is this has to be negatively impacting your relationships

5:05 or it has to be causing trouble on your job occupationally, right?

5:09 If you're a kid, you don't have a job.

5:11 You have schools.

5:12 So what you see is difficulty,

5:14 like getting through a test or forgetting to turn the homework.

5:17 And even though you did the home.

5:18 Right.

5:19 Or losing the worksheets, with my kids that I work with, I'll have them bring

5:23 the book back in and it looks like a war zone.

5:27 I get that.

5:29 But for adults, and I talk about myself.

5:33 The house is organized, but if you open a drawer or you open the closet,

5:38 it looks like it's chaos.

5:40 Chaos?

5:42 That's so I was.

5:43 I was diagnosed with ADHD.

5:44 I don't know when this was.

5:46 Maybe it was definitely during the pandemic.

5:50 Graduations.

5:52 Welcome back.

5:54 But what happened is one of my best friends,

5:56 he was he was going through the most is the best way to put it.

5:59 He he thought he had depression and then he thought he had something else.

6:03 And then someone who was bipolar,

6:04 he went through his whole journey and then came out on the other side of it,

6:08 a almost completely different person.

6:10 And then he told me, he said, hey man,

6:11 I was diagnosed with ADHD and this is what it means.

6:14 And I was like, okay, I mean, I took it seriously,

6:17 but also we're friends, so I didn't take it seriously.

6:19 And then he said, this changed my life.

6:21 And and I felt so emotional and the world has never looked like it.

6:26 And I feel like I've wasted so many chances in life now.

6:29 And I was like, damn, this is getting deep.

6:31 You know, you just forget things.

6:33 Calm down, calm down.

6:33 When he said no, now I take medication

6:36 and then he explained some of the symptoms to me.

6:38 Okay?

6:39 And I was like, that sounds like me.

6:41 But we're so different personality wise that I

6:44 could not believe that we had the same thing,

6:47 because in my head, he was describing a personality.

6:49 And is not a personality disorder.

6:52 Personal disorders, mood disorders, disorders of regulation.

6:58 They are not the same thing.

6:59 And I also kind of want to move away from the the term disorder.

7:02 Yeah, right.

7:03 Your brain is wired to function differently and in different settings.

7:08 In some settings, the way that your brain

7:10 functions is optimal in other settings is suboptimal.

7:13 And so rather than saying like, oh,

7:16 we're disordered because we can't focus, well,

7:18 when it comes time to solve a problem and we're down to the wire,

7:22 we don't have a lot of time.

7:23 Your brain is willing to think creatively.

7:25 Yes a problem.

7:26 Yeah.

7:27 But it can be depressing for you if you are in a setting where

7:31 everybody seems to be able to go with the flow and go with the brain,

7:36 and you're like, I am dying, I am miserable.

7:39 Yeah, go on along with this.

7:41 This is driving me crazy and nobody gets why you're so bother.

7:46 And that's what I find,

7:48 happens when you finally get validated or you get a diagnosis.

7:53 You know, they're like, okay, I knew I wasn't crazy.

7:57 This is actually more for me.

7:58 This is not the way my brain is reinforced.

8:01 This is not what I'm meant to do in life.

8:03 And, the reason I say congratulations to you is because I think

8:07 once people know what's going on with their brains, then they can,

8:11 like, not just look at it from like a negative point of view,

8:13 but almost like embrace it like, okay, so this explains it.

8:17 And now that I know this, I've got to figure out how I work.

8:22 I'm curious because you specialize in children.

8:25 And the thing about early childhood is

8:27 that it's very difficult to articulate your own experience.

8:30 Yes.

8:31 And what's going on in your brain?

8:32 Yes.

8:33 A lot of the things you describe, you're like,

8:34 oh, that sounds just like a toddler, right?

8:36 Well, that sounds like a bright five six year old.

8:38 Right?

8:38 So how for parents with young children

8:40 that are displaying some of this behaviors,

8:42 how can they know the difference between that being like, okay,

8:45 this brain is wired differently and this is just emerging childhood okay.

8:49 So a couple of different places.

8:51 ADHD used to be diagnosed.

8:53 You had to have the symptoms before age six.

8:55 Now we say you have to have them before age 12.

8:58 There are oh why.

8:58 Do they make it.

8:59 Because the researchers said I don't really know.

9:03 But they're.

9:04 Just sad what the new additions of like the manual that we

9:07 use to diagnose a diagnostic and statistical manual for mental disorders.

9:10 That's DSM.

9:11 DSM, right, that it was based on the research

9:14 that people were presenting with symptoms as late as age 12.

9:18 And so they wanted to make sure that they could be I guess, more inclusive.

9:20 Okay.

9:21 So before what was happening is they said if you don't show it by six,

9:23 you don't have it, you're good, you're good.

9:25 But guess what happens at age six?

9:27 Some kids are just entering formal.

9:29 School and now you get.

9:30 Exposed and then you see it.

9:31 Now you see, now you get exposed.

9:33 You don't send your kids to preschool.

9:35 Oh yeah.

9:35 And then you wait until they turn six for kindergarten.

9:38 And then at kindergarten, it's like this kid can not stay in.

9:40 I see this kid is I've walked into classrooms

9:43 where I'm coaching and, looking for my client, and they're under the table.

9:47 And the teacher was like.

9:48 Okay, that's classic, right?

9:51 And like, where is this kid?

9:52 Oh, under the table.

9:53 Okay, time to go with me.

9:55 Right?

9:55 Yeah.

9:56 And so your original question was,

9:58 how do parents know if it's like typical behavior

10:02 or behavior that is different for us as a parent?

10:06 You have to know what your temperament is.

10:08 Is there a mismatch between your temperament and your child's temperament?

10:11 That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem with your child.

10:14 That's number one.

10:15 I think what you want to look at is how that kid interacts with other kids,

10:19 and what it takes to get that kid through a day, because typically,

10:23 if you have a kid who's really hyperactive is going to take a ton of energy

10:26 and organization and routine and planning and accommodating

10:31 to get this kid through the day,

10:33 whereas you may have other kids where you can say,

10:36 put your shoes on, come back five minutes later, the shoes on with this kid.

10:40 If you say, put your shoes on and you come back,

10:42 they're going to be off to the next thing.

10:44 But we want to look at this.

10:46 I want.

10:46 To show they stole my shoes.

10:47 And all these things.

10:50 Okay.

10:51 My, my, my record with my mom,

10:53 the story that she keeps bringing up is one day I came home from school.

10:59 I had no backpack and I had no shoes.

11:04 Come on.

11:06 And then my mom said to me, and my cousin always tells a story as well,

11:09 because that day I got one of the all time beating.

11:12 And he says he remembers, like watching me going,

11:15 but this could have been avoided.

11:16 He was also a child, but he was like.

11:18 This is he watched me and he thought to himself, but he could have avoided this.

11:22 But what had happened was I came home and apparently my mom was like,

11:25 where's all your stuff?

11:26 And I said to her, I said, the bag got heavy, put it down.

11:31 So I put it down.

11:32 I literally left it on the side of the.

11:33 Road up to.

11:35 Me.

11:35 Logically.

11:35 Yeah.

11:36 And then she said, and what happened to the shoes?

11:38 And I said, the shoes were new and I didn't want to finish them.

11:41 So I left them somewhere close to school so that I

11:44 don't have to wear them out on the way home because,

11:47 you know, like your shoes would get worn out on the sides, right?

11:50 Like we couldn't afford new shoes the same way other kids would.

11:53 So I noticed kids always had like a flat heel on their shoe.

11:56 Look at how observant you are.

11:57 That.

11:57 Yeah, exactly.

11:58 And then my shoes had the slant.

12:00 Yeah, that looked terrible.

12:02 So I was like, okay, if I can preserve my shoes,

12:05 then I won't get laughed at as much.

12:07 So I'll leave the shoes near school and then walk home barefoot.

12:11 And we went back and everything was where it was.

12:13 Which means my plan worked.

12:14 Technically.

12:15 Technically, yeah.

12:15 But she she couldn't understand my brain.

12:18 I remember thinking.

12:19 This made sense to me.

12:21 To me, it makes complete sense.

12:23 Yes.

12:23 Now, I don't have the kids, but I also have ADHD, right?

12:27 So I find myself very comfortable with the.

12:29 Child until daughter.

12:30 Who has ADHD.

12:31 I have a question.

12:32 Yeah, so I have a bunch of friends,

12:35 who are now the high performing girls in school super price men,

12:39 nearly 40 and they're like recently diagnosed and it came up in postpartum.

12:43 Yeah.

12:44 Everything for fell apart.

12:45 And a lot of things that their therapists and the people

12:48 that work with that we we miss it in girls.

12:51 We miss it.

12:52 Yes.

12:52 I don't want to go into the gender binary, okay.

12:55 But you know, the girls I see even

12:57 in my son's preschool and my they behave very differently,

13:00 even when they're energetic, they're energetic in a different way.

13:04 How they mean.

13:04 Yeah.

13:04 How do parents of girls who may not have the same presentation make sure

13:10 that these girls don't go under the radar

13:12 for a long time and maybe never get diagnosed?

13:15 What are you seeing in girls as children?

13:17 So that story that I told you about the kid under the desk was a girl.

13:21 And that four girls, unless their behaviors are so hyperactive that it is,

13:27 like, really problematic girls tend to fly under the radar.

13:29 I think because of confirmation bias,

13:31 we expect that boys are going to be more likely

13:34 to struggle with attention and focus or will say like,

13:37 oh, it's part of being a boy.

13:38 But then if it goes too far, it's like, okay,

13:40 well then we probably need to look at this boy.

13:42 I think a lot of girls present

13:44 as inattentive initially and people miss in attention.

13:48 Or the girls that get caught are the girls who are super talkative,

13:53 super busy, super on the go.

13:56 And, and so for girls you can meet

13:58 those six out of nine criteria for hyperactivity.

14:01 But if it's not at a level comparatively to like a boy

14:04 who's hyperactive or another girl who's super hyperactive, you could get miss.

14:08 It's like based on like our cultural expectations for girls,

14:11 behavior for boys, behaviors which make it tough.

14:15 Yeah.

14:15 But there are girls are girls who are struggling.

14:18 Absolutely.

14:18 So what would you look for?

14:20 I guess I think you would look for how the girl is doing in friendships.

14:24 In friendships.

14:25 Are they making friends?

14:27 Are they sustaining friendships?

14:29 Whoa, wait wait wait wait wait.

14:31 Let's let's break this down.

14:32 Yes.

14:33 Why is that?

14:33 One of the signifiers of potentially having ADHD?

14:37 Because children with ADHD are most likely to struggle in social relationships.

14:44 They're going to be the last to be picked to be on teams.

14:46 And we've got research for this.

14:47 Wow.

14:47 What happens is they stay little and people developmentally move on.

14:54 So it's a lot of fun to have a hyperactive friend when you're 3 or 4.

14:58 When you're at 910, not so much, Okay.

15:02 If we're 3 or 4 and you're breaking the rules and you're running,

15:05 it's like, how have fun.

15:06 This is so much.

15:07 Yeah, yeah.

15:08 Yeah, I'm going to play.

15:09 But by the time we get to playing like the video games or we get to like,

15:12 there's a sport and you got to be really agile physically,

15:15 that's another thing that kind of tends

15:17 to co-occur for people with ADHD is physically.

15:20 When it comes to sports and activities,

15:22 they don't necessarily excel in some of those because coordination.

15:26 Yeah.

15:27 Right.

15:27 So you may be more likely to be clumsy.

15:29 And so you need a lot of input.

15:31 Yeah.

15:31 Like if you're playing baseball you got to stop.

15:33 You got to watch.

15:34 That can be really boring for kids.

15:36 Soccer for a kid with ADHD.

15:37 You out there and, and you out there?

15:40 Yeah.

15:40 There's there's moments where they're just watching.

15:42 Nothing kick.

15:42 They picking the flowers out of the dandelions.

15:45 Hey.

15:46 I got a basketball team.

15:48 We got to get you to be able to look and and follow cues.

15:51 And so your social functioning is major when you have ADHD.

15:55 And so if you have a girl or boy and you're worried about them and wandering,

16:00 look at their social functioning.

16:01 How are they doing with friends and our sports and activities then academically,

16:06 talk to the teacher about what's happening in the classroom.

16:12 Is the kid able to sit in a chair or do they stand the whole day?

16:19 When you put the kid under timed pressure,

16:23 or do they do poorer or better finishing an assignment?

16:28 Is this kid likely to stay on task, like to do the assignment until it's done?

16:33 Or do you have to give constant reminders?

16:35 Think about at home.

16:38 How long does it take to wait to get up?

16:40 How long does it take for the kid to get dressed?

16:43 Does the kid lose things?

16:45 Can they follow a routine without a constant reminder?

16:49 And it takes a lot of, like,

16:51 external stuff to be able to get them to that point where they can.

16:55 So it's possible, but you're going to have reminders everywhere.

16:58 So like for me, last two days I've been in New York,

17:03 I've decided not to really set my alarm, which is not a good idea.

17:08 But.

17:10 I like winged it and I made it, but I made it down to the wire.

17:13 That's another thing.

17:14 Wait till the last minute.

17:16 Oh yeah, that's classic ADHD.

17:18 Yeah, that's completely.

17:19 I can do this at eight minutes.

17:21 Yeah, yeah.

17:21 Time blindness.

17:22 Time blindness.

17:23 Completely time.

17:24 You know, you know, what I'd love to do is

17:25 break down each part to help us understand the whys behind.

17:28 Okay?

17:28 Because I think a lot of people will,

17:30 you know, a lot of people recognize this stuff, right?

17:31 Yeah.

17:32 They'll go like, oh, yeah, that's me.

17:33 I can't wake up or I'm late or I'm, help us understand the why.

17:37 So why is it hard to wake up if you have ADHD.

17:42 And you likely don't have great sleep hygiene?

17:44 You know, you should go to bed at 8:00, but you really want to watch that show.

17:48 And fixated go down.

17:49 That rabbit hole.

17:51 Why do you not go to bed then?

17:53 Because your brain is like,

17:54 but I could just watch this one episode and it won't be that bad.

17:57 And then you get hooked on episode one you like,

17:59 but now I want to watch another.

18:00 Or you're like, I want to read this book, and my brain isn't tired yet,

18:04 so I'm going to read a few chapters of this book.

18:06 Like, I need my brain to be exhausted, to fall asleep and stay asleep.

18:10 Okay, but then why is your brain wanting?

18:12 Because your brain is reinforced by dopamine.

18:17 Okay, what is happening with ADHD is your brain functions differently.

18:21 Okay.

18:21 And so the dopamine or the reward centers

18:24 of the brain need a lot of input for reinforcement.

18:28 Okay.

18:28 And what's happening with a with a regular brain.

18:30 With a regular brain.

18:31 I like to call an office brain.

18:33 And office.

18:33 Yeah I didn't put it that just quarter I.

18:36 Call it office.

18:37 I call.

18:37 It a non office.

18:38 Brain.

18:38 And my brain is like.

18:40 What office brain people do.

18:42 Office brain people are reinforced by being

18:44 in the office and getting their work done.

18:46 Okay.

18:46 When an office brain person wakes up.

18:49 Task.

18:49 Oriented, they wake up easily because.

18:52 Now they're happy to wake up.

18:53 They're probably more organized or have better sleep patterns.

18:55 Yeah, they're.

18:56 Routine and structured.

18:57 So they go to bed.

18:59 They have a routine.

19:00 Yeah.

19:00 They sleep while they're in.

19:01 Bed and their brains giving them dopamine for doing that.

19:04 Yeah, I don't know.

19:05 That is giving them dopamine.

19:06 But their brains and bodies are reinforced by having that eight hours of sleep.

19:10 They know they need it to function.

19:12 It really helps them to get through the day.

19:14 It makes them feel comfortable and secure, and so they prioritize it.

19:17 For a person with ADHD, sleep isn't necessarily a priority.

19:22 Getting stuff done and having fun is a priority,

19:24 like doing as much as you can in a day as a priority.

19:28 Like being able to multitask even though you might not be good at it.

19:31 That's the priority.

19:32 That's what's reinforcing.

19:33 Like, usually I have to get up at 610 to wake my son up,

19:36 but hey, got somebody waking him up because I'm not there yet.

19:40 So you switch.

19:41 Your I.

19:41 Switch my alarm back 30 minutes.

19:43 And before I left Atlanta one day,

19:46 I decided, like, I'll just take them to school.

19:48 Forget it.

19:49 On the school bus.

19:49 Right.

19:50 That's me.

19:50 Decided I'm not going to engage in routine

19:52 because I just decided I didn't want to.

19:54 But I am training my child to respond to an alarm.

19:58 And so I was still on the bed and got a knock on my door.

20:02 And my child is like, it's 630.

20:04 And I was like, oh, I was going to take you to school today.

20:07 He's like undressed.

20:08 I was like, okay.

20:09 You know, the buzzer.

20:10 Yeah.

20:12 So, yeah.

20:13 So.

20:13 So okay, so it sounds actually you you have ADHD.

20:16 Absolutely.

20:16 But I was like, good.

20:17 Look at me.

20:18 I'm making excuses.

20:19 So the school.

20:20 I don't think my teachers would have complained about me.

20:22 I just talked.

20:24 I just talked, and I had to do.

20:25 Did you?

20:26 But did you know when you got into clinical psychology.

20:28 Did you did you know by that time would you know afterwards?

20:30 I'm black.

20:31 And when I got into my clinical psychology program, I had never been to therapy.

20:36 All of my white colleagues, most of them have been to therapy before.

20:39 They had seen psychologists.

20:40 So I decided to do this.

20:42 On saying I would never wanted therapy or nobody in my family went to therapy.

20:46 It's like when.

20:47 You just pray, you pray.

20:48 I mean, that's what we did.

20:49 And you say, is nothing wrong with anger, right?

20:51 No.

20:51 Wrong.

20:52 Again.

20:52 We just going to pray on.

20:53 A pray that like get out of here, you know, had no problems.

20:56 We got problems like.

20:57 You know, like it's like that's how it goes.

20:59 So like when I went to grad school,

21:02 I used to take copious notes so that I could focus.

21:06 And then I would doodle and then in undergrad I remember getting

21:10 called out by a professor because they knew I was doing one,

21:13 which is pretty embarrassing at the collegiate level to get called out for dude.

21:16 And I like, I'm in college like this is my fifth great.

21:18 But I got called out, but I've always just figured out how to make it work.

21:25 Because that's like there's like different cultural expectations, right?

21:29 And my grades were high.

21:30 Yeah.

21:31 I got everything done.

21:33 But I just know that there's a there's a book that talks

21:37 about ADHD and functioning and they talk about like brain glitches.

21:41 And, one of the glitches is go ahead and forget it.

21:45 Like go ahead, you're gonna have enough time later.

21:47 Go ahead and do what you want.

21:48 You're going to be able to calm down.

21:49 Oh yes, I call that now and not now.

21:52 Title that.

21:52 Is.

21:53 What is that?

21:54 So for an ADHD brain there are only two modes.

21:57 There is now and there is not now.

22:01 Okay okay.

22:02 So when I meet other people,

22:04 I'm always really impressed and fascinated by how they are able

22:08 to see time laid out in, in a more gradual fashion.

22:13 So somebody says to me, let's say it's now like 5 p.m.

22:16 and they go, dinner's at eight.

22:18 In my head, what I've heard is dinner is not now, okay.

22:21 Then at like 630 they'll start like dressing.

22:25 They'll go, all right, I'm going to go get dressed.

22:27 And I'll say to my friend, I'll be like, you're getting dressed.

22:29 Why?

22:29 I go so we can go to dinner.

22:30 Then I go, wait, what's the time?

22:32 They go at 630 and they're like, Caesar, Caesar!

22:34 I have Caesar on the podcast all the time.

22:35 He's like, the antithesis of it is he is the, like, the furthest thing possible.

22:40 So he'll start getting dressed at like 6 p.m.

22:42 or 630 with dinners at eight.

22:45 Yes.

22:45 And then I go, but dinner's at eight.

22:47 And he's like, yeah, so I'm going to get dressed.

22:48 Now I go, but that's not now.

22:50 Like dinner is not now.

22:51 Could do so many other things now.

22:52 My brain is going I mean I could watch a movie,

22:55 I could watch a few episodes of a TV show, I could read something.

22:58 This is this makes no sense, because how long does dressing take?

23:01 Dressing takes approximately six minutes.

23:04 That's like six minutes to get your whole outfit together.

23:06 That's what I'm going to.

23:07 -30.

23:08 You never know.

23:09 It's like six minutes.

23:10 You put your things on and.

23:12 Then I'm like.

23:12 And then what?

23:12 To get out of the door.

23:13 That doesn't even take time.

23:14 That's like six 70s at best.

23:17 And then when you're in the car, what does Google say?

23:18 Oh 11 minutes.

23:19 Okay.

23:19 So it's going to take 11 minutes to get to the place.

23:21 So if we combine all of this time, well 27 minutes is what I need.

23:26 And I'll and I'll be this is what my brain says.

23:28 Sit on the couch location location location location, location.

23:31 And then at some point I even get anxious or I

23:34 get I get annoyed that the time is not happening.

23:38 So I'll look down and go, what's the time now?

23:40 715 now I have to wait 15 minutes before I can start doing stuff,

23:45 and I'll sit with that.

23:47 I'll sit with that and look at it and look at it and look at it.

23:49 And then finally at 730,

23:51 I'll wait for that three minutes because I know I need 27 minutes.

23:55 I wait for the three minutes, I'll be like, all right, time to go.

23:58 And then like, my phone will ring.

24:01 And then that now has thrown off everything

24:02 because someone phoned me for like four minutes.

24:04 Now you have just killed my 27 minute plan.

24:07 And then now I'm not running.

24:08 But then you're.

24:09 Going to be late.

24:09 Because it's not now.

24:10 That's the thing.

24:11 And like, I think that's why I say like with kids,

24:15 part of it is because I don't take things that seriously.

24:17 But when I talk to people's kids who have

24:20 this, I articulated to their parents with them because I go,

24:23 no, I know you're making it serious.

24:25 And a lot of parents of ADHD

24:28 children feel like their kids really undermine them.

24:31 Yes, yes.

24:31 That's like the biggest thing.

24:32 Defiance.

24:33 It feels like defying.

24:34 But it also feels like prank defiance.

24:35 Because think about it.

24:38 You send a child into another room.

24:40 Just just think of it from a parent's perspective.

24:43 Please go into your room.

24:45 Yes.

24:45 And put on your jacket and put on your shoes.

24:47 We're leaving.

24:48 We're leaving in ten minutes.

24:50 The kid goes into the room.

24:52 15 minutes later, you're like, where's the kid?

24:54 You go to the room.

24:56 They have a.

24:57 Plan.

24:57 They do not have.

24:58 A jacket on.

24:59 They don't have the shoes on.

25:01 They have books on the bed that if they've opened up,

25:04 they've started reading something, they've started building Lego.

25:06 They've stopped and you're going, what are you doing?

25:09 And the child looks at you and goes, what are you like your jacket in there?

25:13 Well, he's like, what are you I just need.

25:16 And I see how many parents because it feels like you're being under my.

25:19 It feels like somebody please go and grab something for me.

25:21 They never come back.

25:22 Yeah.

25:23 You know, and so I like.

25:25 I love that you're saying that thing of, like, the brain, the brain glitching.

25:28 Because I think people take that for granted.

25:31 And I also understand a lot of people are just like, this is this is bullshit.

25:35 Come on.

25:36 There's no way your brain works like that.

25:38 Is absolutely not bullshit.

25:40 If you've got a kid with ADHD or you have ADHD,

25:43 you've got to do one thing at a time.

25:44 You get one command in the room where you want it to occur.

25:47 You wait for the person to start,

25:49 so then you can reinforce the fact that they're started.

25:50 Thank you for listening, cause I'm trying to get them to listen to you.

25:53 Oh, I love this.

25:54 Wait, so let's let's play the scenario out.

25:55 Yes.

25:56 You want the best result for your kid and from your kid.

25:58 Yes.

25:59 Or from.

25:59 Your partner.

26:00 Right.

26:00 Who might have ADHD?

26:01 Okay.

26:01 Oh, I like we'll get to that.

26:02 Yes.

26:02 We're going to get.

26:03 We got to.

26:04 Get to that.

26:05 Let's so we start with the kids.

26:06 So you in the room.

26:07 Yes.

26:07 So you want something to happen.

26:09 You want your kid to make their bed?

26:11 Absolutely.

26:12 Okay.

26:12 You don't tell them to make their bed from the living room.

26:15 You're saying you go with them, you.

26:17 Go with them.

26:17 And so nobody has time for that.

26:19 That's our issue, right?

26:19 We don't have time to go.

26:21 I need you to go to your bedroom.

26:22 Make your bed.

26:22 Actually, you go to the setting where you want the behavior to occur.

26:25 Okay?

26:26 In order to increase the chances that the behavioral will occur.

26:28 So ABC antecedent behavior consequence antecedent.

26:31 We're going to go to the kid's room.

26:33 We're going to say if you don't get some information you give it.

26:36 Now I need you to make your bed the wrong mess.

26:39 You don't have to throw in the rules mess.

26:40 But I need you to make.

26:41 Your bathroom and rooms a mess at the wrong.

26:43 Time.

26:43 I need to make your bed.

26:45 Yes, please make your bed.

26:46 And you can say please, because it models a social scale.

26:49 Being polite when you make a command and it's not a question is now like,

26:52 are we ready to clean up the room?

26:54 It's like a question now.

26:55 It's a command.

26:56 So this is not gentle parenting where it's like, oh,

26:58 I'm being nice to the kid for the sake of being nice.

27:00 Okay.

27:01 Got it.

27:01 There's a difference.

27:02 So please make the bed.

27:04 You wait, you say nothing.

27:06 The K starts to make the bed.

27:07 Great job listener.

27:08 I'll be back in two minutes.

27:09 You think you can get this done in two minutes?

27:11 Like, make it a little game?

27:12 He's like, yeah, I got this in two minutes.

27:14 You go, I.

27:15 Like them, make.

27:16 Them make it a game.

27:17 Gamifying tasks that are non desirable.

27:21 Yeah.

27:21 For now reinforcement is a big thing for people with ADHD.

27:25 You set that timer you see if you can beat it.

27:27 So back to the kid.

27:28 We want something done.

27:29 We have to do the command in the setting where we want it done.

27:33 If you do it from afar with multiple parts, they're going to lose it.

27:38 They're just going to lose the task because their brain is

27:40 not wired to keep up with multiple task at a time.

27:44 I'm really curious because you said I'm black.

27:47 Yes.

27:47 Sorry.

27:47 Said I'm.

27:48 Not.

27:48 I'm not sorry.

27:50 I'm black.

27:51 Yes.

27:51 Your focus is children.

27:53 Yes.

27:53 And we know that black children,

27:55 minority children in this country tend to be really under.

27:59 Yes.

27:59 And as a result that often expelled.

28:02 It's like that's a bad kid.

28:04 And we know about the school to prison pipeline.

28:06 And there's some that I can't remember the statistic about

28:08 how many people in the prison system actually have ADHD.

28:11 Right.

28:11 It's I think it's, 60 to 70%.

28:13 It's like a huge.

28:15 Huge swath of, like, black men in this country who were once

28:18 black boys with ADHD who were never diagnosed.

28:20 And because of, you know, historical and social factors so bad you're a bad kid.

28:25 Systemic racism, systemic racism.

28:27 Yeah.

28:28 So we're in this kind of very negative

28:30 loop that becomes multi-generational because I think culturally,

28:32 sometimes we don't have the words someone's anxious.

28:35 They may say my nerves is bad.

28:36 They're not going to say that like I have anxiety.

28:38 Yeah.

28:38 So there's no none of the cultural language.

28:40 So I'm wondering like, what can we do for those children around us where

28:45 they actually have internalized the idea that they are bad?

28:49 Well, the school is saying that there are

28:51 bad kid and they're on that expulsion track.

28:53 How do we get them out of that?

28:55 Because it seems that once you're on that track, it's hard.

28:58 It's hard to get off.

28:59 I think the first thing and this is like what

29:01 I learned as a behavioral psychologist is we don't discuss like,

29:05 children as traits, characteristics.

29:07 We talk about the behavior.

29:08 Right.

29:09 So we're externalizing a behavior from a kid.

29:11 So it's not that you're bad because you won't sit down

29:14 and listen is because it's hard for you to sit still.

29:17 You have difficulty sitting still for long periods of time.

29:19 That doesn't mean there's something wrong with you.

29:21 It's just better for you to be able to move around.

29:24 So getting parents to see behaviors as behaviors and not

29:27 as children's personality or what they're going to grow up.

29:30 Yeah.

29:31 The other thing that we've got to be really aware of is like, messages.

29:35 They get passed down through generations and through

29:38 families that can be really kind of negative.

29:41 And trying to, like,

29:43 compare kids to people around them who we think that they are like.

29:47 And we have all this anxiety and this angst and this worry about whether or not

29:50 our boys are going to be okay or what the future is going to hold.

29:54 And so we want them to, like, conform to all of these, like,

29:58 behaviors that are going to ensure that they're successful.

30:01 And now we're learning that there's no perfect recipe.

30:04 I mean.

30:04 Look at him.

30:05 Come on.

30:06 There is no recipe for this.

30:08 But for black people, it's like, well, if there's no recipe,

30:11 if you can't just be good and go to college

30:14 and get a good job, what do we do now?

30:16 And we're learning that that's not necessarily the recipe.

30:19 Yeah.

30:20 You know, but that's the recipe.

30:21 This kind of being push, which is why I think a lot.

30:24 And if systems around you I hate to go here, but whatever.

30:28 If systems around you are built so that you don't succeed,

30:34 then you got to wonder if people are going to be

30:37 more likely to blow you off and dismiss you for any difference,

30:43 rather than looking at it as like a positive or saying,

30:46 this is my kid who likes to talk in the classroom,

30:49 so I'm going to have him stand up and explain

30:52 to the class what I just said in his terminology.

30:56 And if this is my kid who likes to be on the table,

31:00 then I'm going to say, if you all get through this assignment,

31:02 I'm going to let you come up with a beat

31:04 on the table and the rest of you all dance.

31:06 If this is my kid who likes to challenge and question,

31:10 then let's have a debate right about this subject.

31:12 But you got to care.

31:14 And you got to believe that this type of behavior is functional.

31:17 Right.

31:18 You've got to believe that there's functionality to being busy.

31:21 There's functionality to thinking outside of the box.

31:23 There's functionality to like thinking.

31:27 And many systems are set up for that.

31:30 We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

31:40 And I'll often say to my friend, I say it a half joking, but I do believe it.

31:44 I go ADHD isn't necessarily a problem.

31:47 ADHD is just like the enemy of capitalism.

31:49 I truly believe this.

31:51 And what I mean by that is if you think

31:54 of what how ADHD presents most of the things that ADHD presents,

32:00 they're like sort of bad for a factory worker.

32:03 Absolutely.

32:04 I joke and I call people office thinkers,

32:06 but I know some of my friends love organizing and being quiet

32:10 and reading and looking at lists and putting numbers to get good for you.

32:14 Good for you.

32:16 But you have to admit that the world has just been designed that way.

32:18 Absolutely right.

32:19 So the world is great for people who wake up early.

32:22 The world is great for people who wish to sit in a cubicle.

32:25 But what does the world do for you if you do want to talk,

32:28 or if you do want to run, or if you want to jump, or if you want to?

32:31 Now luckily, there's some outlets, like for instance,

32:33 in the same way that prison athletes overindex for ADHD.

32:37 Oh, I didn't know that.

32:38 Yeah a lot.

32:39 Do they.

32:39 Train?

32:39 No, but.

32:40 No, no, that's what reinforces that's what reinforces that okay.

32:42 Yeah.

32:43 The hyper focus is their sport.

32:44 So I'm intrinsically internally motivated to do

32:48 this activity that I love this athletic.

32:51 So I can do it for hours.

32:52 I can train for hours.

32:53 I'm around my people who also love it.

32:55 I'm so reinforced by that.

32:57 I just want to be in this setting in and I can I can perform and I can excel.

33:01 It does.

33:01 Two things that I've seen firsthand is like,

33:04 number one, it's it's routine and it's rhythm, right?

33:07 But it's also not boring routine and rhythm.

33:09 Yeah.

33:10 So it's high intensity.

33:11 Someone's throwing a ball at your face.

33:13 This is not like like if you read a textbook and you miss a line,

33:16 you're not walking out with a black eye.

33:17 Do you know what I'm saying?

33:18 Trevor, normally I agree with you when you say stuff about,

33:21 like, capitalism and office workers.

33:23 Yes, but an ADHD brain.

33:25 I'm with you on that.

33:26 But I think that ADHD brain can make you a bad partner.

33:30 Like in a relationship.

33:31 Definitely.

33:32 You know, I mean, like,

33:33 but imagine you didn't even have a job and you have all the money in the world.

33:37 Oh, that's.

33:37 Why you get.

33:38 What your wife is saying to you.

33:40 I need you to pick up the dry cleaning.

33:42 But you know what's interesting about the at least, you know,

33:44 before we move on to to talk is,

33:48 a lot of athletes don't know that they have ADHD.

33:50 That's what I've realized as well, because especially in America,

33:54 like, sports started at such a young age.

33:56 Yeah, yeah.

33:57 So they just know that they excel.

33:59 Yeah.

34:00 Right.

34:01 A lot of them don't even realize

34:02 that it's their ADHD brain that makes them excel.

34:04 So they're able to think of multiple plays at the same time.

34:07 On the court.

34:08 They're noticing it's.

34:09 A level of.

34:10 Genius.

34:10 It is a level of genius, sure.

34:12 But they never get diagnosed and they never present it.

34:15 But maybe in their personal lives that I know.

34:17 That's why I mentioned the partner thing.

34:19 Tom Brady I'm not saying he has ADHD, but.

34:21 Like this is a good.

34:23 His life kind of fell apart when he retired, right?

34:26 Yeah.

34:26 And then he has to go back to the thing and then you know.

34:28 Yeah.

34:29 No.

34:29 Look you never know.

34:30 You never know with anyone.

34:31 But that's what I mean.

34:31 It's like because but I think also even in those situations like you,

34:36 you listen to some of the, the top performing athletes, the ones who have,

34:41 I would say, like the most rigid routines

34:43 are generally the ones who do the best,

34:44 because even in their personal lives, their meals are the time with the family.

34:48 They they have this.

34:49 So the family has to also fit

34:51 into the schedule because the schedule is so intense.

34:53 So then that to me goes to the conversation about partners, right?

34:56 So the athlete is hyper focused in doing what they have to do

34:59 to maximize what their bodies can do to maximize their amount of time.

35:02 But then that is one part of your life.

35:06 Yeah.

35:06 And you miss out on the other parts

35:08 of your life that are kind of orbiting around you.

35:11 And that's not your life.

35:12 Is your livelihood.

35:13 But for many of them, it's their life.

35:14 Yeah.

35:14 It is their.

35:15 Life is where they've been there it's been

35:16 their life is finally where they feel secure and productive.

35:19 And they may not have.

35:21 And it is a way out.

35:23 Poverty is a way out is a way to help family.

35:26 You serve so many functions.

35:27 But when it comes time to being a partner of a person,

35:31 you've got to be able to be empathic and to understand

35:36 what it is you need and what it is your partner needs.

35:40 And so can you give me an example about what might

35:44 make it hard to be in partnership with somebody with ADHD?

35:48 I don't want to look at it strictly through a heterosexual lens,

35:51 but I think domestic labor is something most couples,

35:54 wherever you are, struggle with.

35:56 Yes.

35:56 Who does the washing up?

35:58 Yeah.

35:58 Who gets the laundry?

35:59 Who's kicking today?

36:00 Who's cleaning?

36:01 Like the house needs to be in a certain way.

36:03 And when you have children, that's even compounded, right?

36:06 For the most part, women take on a lot of domestic labor.

36:09 We talk about the mental load all the time.

36:11 It's women doing that.

36:12 And I speak to a lot of friends whose husbands have ADHD.

36:16 And, like we're really dealing with the gender differences that come up.

36:20 But I'm doing a lot of the domestic labor.

36:22 But this man is also forgetful and but he's not being an asshole, do you know?

36:28 I mean, because sometimes there's this idea that, like,

36:30 you know, the lazy man is like, he's struggling.

36:32 He he generally forgot to take out the trash, even though I can smell it.

36:36 Right?

36:36 Right.

36:36 Stinky forgot to take out the trash.

36:38 He didn't make the bed.

36:39 He didn't pick up the dry cleaning.

36:41 I organized the cleaner.

36:42 You forgot to get the cash to pay the cleaner.

36:44 Do you know what I mean?

36:45 And like that can cause a lot of tension in relationships.

36:48 And then you think that that person dislikes you?

36:51 Because I think when you're in love with somebody, it's like,

36:54 if you love me, you do this thing for me.

36:56 But they're incapable of.

36:57 But love is not transactional.

36:59 Well, for some people it is.

37:00 Okay.

37:00 So that's one thing.

37:01 So we have love is transactional.

37:03 Then you need to know what the currency is.

37:06 Yeah.

37:06 My currency your currency is going to be different.

37:08 Your currency is going to be organization.

37:11 Yeah.

37:11 You are going to be able to like make sure the kids have the schedule.

37:15 Make sure that the cleaner is scheduled.

37:16 Make sure that we know what day the trash goes out.

37:19 We know how much money is in the bank account.

37:21 The other person's currency may be like on stuff,

37:25 and it can be hard when you are the person,

37:27 the the currency of responsibility and the other person who

37:30 seems like to do the yes to do the fun stuff,

37:31 but is like making sure that you all are having family outings.

37:34 The person who has relationships with everybody in the neighborhood,

37:38 that might be the person who's able to make

37:40 sure that they check in with the family,

37:42 to make sure that you all are going to have a family vacation.

37:44 So it may seem like one person is like day to day,

37:47 like, what's happening right here on the ground.

37:51 The other person may be bird's eye view.

37:53 And I think you got to know what

37:55 your strengths and weaknesses are in the couple.

37:59 So if you are the partner of a person with ADHD

38:02 and you know that money management is not their thing,

38:07 then we don't want to put all money responsibilities on them.

38:11 We want to make sure that they're knowledgeable.

38:13 But we may say hey, so we have a system and there's a budget.

38:17 Your budget is this we have a credit card that is set to this amount,

38:22 and once that amount is over, we're done.

38:24 There's going to be some tension there.

38:26 But you are helping that person to structure,

38:29 but then you're also reinforcing that by saying like,

38:31 look says we were able to stay within our budget.

38:34 We have this much more to take.

38:35 That vacation you want and you want it to plan is great, but you can't.

38:37 Go either way because there's a lot of wives who have the ADHD.

38:40 Yeah, the husband doesn't like it.

38:42 We can go either way.

38:42 But I think really, you've got to be honest about who you are.

38:45 You know, this is something that I know, like, I've struggled with, you know,

38:49 after being diagnosed with ADHD, I then went back and I was like, oh, wow.

38:53 Half of the issues I had in my relationships were from ADHD,

38:57 and then 90% of the issues I had with my mom was just ADHD.

39:01 Just me realizing, oh, oh, I was never I was never, quote unquote naughty.

39:05 Oh, my brain was just trying to be stimulated.

39:07 I wanted to see what would happen if I threw

39:09 rocks at all the windows at the houses in the neighborhood.

39:12 And I know now, as an adult, it's now the logic has caught up to it.

39:16 But I still think it's an exciting endeavor.

39:18 Right?

39:19 But how do you find the difference between

39:24 being incompatible slash an asshole and oh no,

39:28 this is the person's ADHD because I can understand

39:32 in anyone's defense who's with someone who has ADHD.

39:36 To your point, they might just be ignoring your requests and they might not be.

39:41 But then there's a person with ADHD who's going like,

39:44 damn, I really, really, really didn't want to forget that.

39:47 And I really didn't want to be late for dinner.

39:49 And I really didn't want to be.

39:50 Promising and under-delivering,

39:51 which I think is another ADHD thing that could come up in relationship.

39:55 Yeah.

39:55 Like I, you know, the biggest thing that helped me genuinely, yeah,

39:58 is now and I give this advice to anyone who has

40:02 ADHD is I go start with no change my whole life.

40:07 Start with no.

40:08 Yeah.

40:09 Let me think about it.

40:10 Everything people ask you start with no.

40:13 And you'll be shocked at how it like changes.

40:15 Because that's what I realize happens to ADHD people.

40:17 Our brains are moving so quickly.

40:19 Someone says something, we love being stimulated.

40:21 And so Christiana goes, hey, can you babysit my kid this week?

40:24 Yeah, I'd love to see.

40:26 I said immediately.

40:27 Yes.

40:27 And then I leave the conversation.

40:30 I pull up my phone and I go, oh,

40:32 this weekend I have a oh, I've got, I've got an my world.

40:35 I've got a gig that I have to do.

40:36 And I forgot about this thing.

40:38 But now and then you send me a text going,

40:40 thank you so much for agreeing to babysit.

40:42 I'm like, oh damn, what do I do now?

40:45 Thank you for letting everybody down.

40:46 Yeah.

40:46 Now I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, I think I can do this.

40:48 So wait, what time is the actual babysitting?

40:50 Yeah, okay.

40:51 From 4 to 6.

40:52 My gig is at 630, so I could make.

40:54 It's a 2020 seven minute drive.

40:56 I think I can, and now I'm back in the loop.

40:58 I'm back in the 27 minutes.

40:59 Right.

41:00 And then what happens is I disappoint you on the day because I get overwhelmed.

41:05 Because the day comes, my times aren't lining up.

41:08 I can't get to you on time.

41:10 And and then what?

41:12 What happens to a lot of people with ADHD,

41:14 I know is there's the shame that comes with it.

41:16 Yes.

41:16 Because you were because you were trying to do the thing for everybody.

41:21 What happens is you fail everybody.

41:23 Yeah.

41:23 And because rightfully so on this, I

41:25 they don't know what you were going through.

41:28 And so they just go,

41:29 why didn't you just tell me then why did you agree to do this?

41:32 And why did you like it?

41:33 Why do you want so much on your plate?

41:35 Is this part of why people with ADHD

41:37 have higher levels of depression and suicide?

41:39 Let's talk about it.

41:40 Is absolutely.

41:41 Is it?

41:41 Yeah.

41:41 That I think so.

41:42 Yeah.

41:43 You internalize it.

41:44 And I think already the research we don't technically I

41:48 don't think we have a ton of it just yet.

41:50 But anecdotally I believe that many people who struggle

41:54 with ADHD often have underlying anxiety and depression for decades.

41:58 Anxiety and depression tend to kind of co-occur.

42:00 It's hard for us to tease them apart,

42:03 but what happens a lot of times is kids who once they're medicated,

42:07 once a person is medicated for ADHD with the stimulant medication,

42:10 which actually slows your brain down,

42:12 then we start to see all of these anxious thoughts come up.

42:15 And it's not that the medication is causing

42:17 those thoughts is that we can hear them now.

42:19 Oh, the person was so busy or so distracted

42:22 that all we were focused on was their behaviors,

42:24 and we didn't know what was happening in their mind.

42:27 Yeah.

42:28 So on the partner side, what advice would you give someone like how does because

42:33 I think like if I'm just being fair to everyone here,

42:36 I would hate for some people to use ADHD or their.

42:41 Diagnosis to get out.

42:42 As an excuse.

42:43 Like I use pregnancy not to do stuff.

42:45 No, no, you should be able to use pregnancy to get like I.

42:49 I can't, I can't breathe when I can.

42:50 You switch on me like I'm pregnant.

42:52 The life cycle.

42:52 Right.

42:53 Very like right now.

42:54 Like I do ask excuse about.

42:57 Pregnancy should be used as an excuse for.

42:59 Everything.

43:00 If you were talking to the partner who doesn't have

43:03 ADHD and how would you counsel them and say, okay,

43:05 this is where I think your your boundaries should be or this is what I

43:08 think you should look for, and then we'll move on to the partner with ADHD.

43:11 Okay.

43:11 So anecdotally what I tend to notice is that we attract opposites.

43:16 A person with ADHD is typically going

43:18 to attract somebody who's more structured routine, right.

43:21 It helps them a person who's.

43:23 Monsters could pack bags very well.

43:25 Are you expecting them to write?

43:28 I do.

43:29 They were just like you said it, not me.

43:31 They were just like, no, I didn't pack my bag.

43:33 I didn't know.

43:34 If they did.

43:34 You were.

43:35 Happy?

43:35 No.

43:35 Can I tell you is the opposite?

43:37 I think someone.

43:38 Sorry to attack, you.

43:38 Know, I hate, so I don't feel attacked.

43:40 I had someone packing my bag because then I don't

43:43 know if the thing I want is in the bag.

43:44 You don't know I stuff do not pack my bag for me.

43:47 Do you like that?

43:48 You don't.

43:48 That's your.

43:49 Control.

43:49 And that's what I was going to say.

43:51 A lot of times, people who are with someone

43:55 with ADHD start to get engaged in over controlling behaviors,

44:00 because you are so worried about what happens

44:02 when the person with ADHD forget something oh, so overcorrect okay,

44:07 and then the person with ADHD becomes

44:10 resentful because they think you're trying to control.

44:13 And really, what you are trying to do

44:15 is manage your anxiety about something being forgotten.

44:18 Because they forget every time.

44:19 Because they do forget everything.

44:21 You forget they're not forgetting everything.

44:22 To get at.

44:23 You are to be annoying.

44:24 It's just something that happens.

44:25 But what then you may do is list out a schedule,

44:28 make sure that everything is just so,

44:30 and when that person doesn't comply, you lose it.

44:33 When they do comply, you're happy.

44:35 But what you're teaching them is not to engage in the behaviors on their own.

44:39 So if I am scheduling all of your appointments, packing all of your bags,

44:43 when do you have to think and when do you learn to do it yourself?

44:46 Okay, so well, you had to watch for if you're

44:49 the partner of a person with ADHD and you don't have ADHD,

44:52 is that you could start to do too much,

44:55 and then you start getting into this control dynamic,

44:57 and then the person starts to resent you

44:58 because they think you're trying to control them.

45:00 And then you resent them doing double the.

45:02 Work.

45:02 Yes.

45:03 Do you know something?

45:03 You said that because I feel very ignorant to ADHD,

45:06 because I think my brain is probably wired the opposite way.

45:09 When you said that piece about the control and you're doing it for them,

45:13 you're saying that people with ADHD are capable of doing these things,

45:16 and they just you just need a system, okay?

45:18 Because I in my mind I'm like, yeah, oh, you just can't do it.

45:21 But they are capable.

45:22 You're capable, but that your system may not

45:25 look like the person who's over control system.

45:28 Your system may be okay when it comes to packing a bag for me.

45:32 I'm going to set that bag out three days in advance.

45:34 But guess what?

45:35 An hour before it's time for me to go to the airport.

45:37 I'm still rifling through that bag.

45:38 Yeah, because there's something I forgotten.

45:40 Or I decided, like, I had two blazers and then I'm like,

45:43 I don't like these Blazers.

45:45 Throw the Blazers out.

45:45 And then I'm like, well, maybe I don't need the Blazers.

45:47 Put the blazer back in.

45:48 So I start to question myself.

45:50 My brain is getting busy.

45:51 I'm getting distracted.

45:52 I'm overwhelmed.

45:53 So even though I had the goal of being prepared,

45:56 I still find myself struggling an hour before I'm supposed to go.

46:01 So because it's not now.

46:04 Because it's not now.

46:05 It's not now.

46:06 But when it's now, I'm like, well, yeah, that wasn't as bad.

46:09 Exactly.

46:10 So yesterday I had to go by a blazer.

46:12 So it required.

46:12 So I got, I got what I love I guess about me.

46:17 So I'm going to be real with you all.

46:19 I'm not going to point fingers.

46:20 Yeah.

46:20 You know.

46:21 Yeah.

46:21 Do you know what I think that means for the person who is not neuro spicy?

46:26 And his wife very was wired in a very typical way.

46:29 It requires a lot of acceptance because part of me is judging.

46:32 I'm like, what's wrong with you?

46:33 But guess what?

46:34 When you want to have fun.

46:36 Who do you call exactly?

46:38 Trevor.

46:38 He probably says, and if he doesn't come, you're sad because you're like,

46:42 I'm not going to be able to push myself to have fun the way I have.

46:45 Yeah, yeah.

46:46 It's true, it's true.

46:52 Have you ever thought about all the crazy specific jobs out there?

46:56 And I mean, like crazy and I mean specific.

46:58 For example, did you know a company

47:01 is currently hiring for a psychic in California?

47:05 This is a real thing.

47:06 Yeah, this job and others like it or what

47:09 inspired a special part of today's episode next big Opportunity,

47:12 brought to you by ZipRecruiter.

47:15 Every day, ZipRecruiter helps 10 million candidates with their job search,

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47:24 And when they say no matter the role or industry, they really mean it.

47:29 You can see for yourself by going to ziprecruiter.com/trevor Christiana.

47:35 I always wondered what jobs do you think you would be good at?

47:37 Like, do you think you'd be a good life coach?

47:40 Oh no a good no.

47:42 Wow.

47:42 I would be a good life cut.

47:43 No, because I would probably tell you that it's not going to go well for you.

47:48 And you need someone, like, inspiring.

47:50 You know, I think I'm just too cynical and real to be a life coach.

47:53 I'm going to go the opposite way.

47:55 And I say, I think we need a few more life coaches who tell people,

47:57 hey, man, this is not work.

47:58 I just can't do this, right?

48:01 It's not.

48:01 Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, this rap thing.

48:03 I actually think if we had more life coaches like you,

48:06 people would be in better careers and the world would be a better place.

48:09 And not everyone would try to go viral on TikTok.

48:12 I just feel like.

48:13 Medicine, medicine, accounting, engineering.

48:16 We need more plumbers, electricians.

48:19 I'm just going to tell you to do regular jobs and make some money.

48:22 But the rest of the stuff now, not for me.

48:26 I can't believe that people are hiring psychics.

48:29 Like, yeah, well.

48:30 Yeah, if you're going to get your wish,

48:32 that's word of mouth, which is not something.

48:34 You go against.

48:37 What do you what.

48:38 Do you even ask in that interview?

48:40 I would just sit there and I'd be like,

48:41 well, you know what my questions are, aren't they?

48:44 Yeah.

48:44 That's true.

48:45 You know the questions.

48:46 Maybe I'm a little too closed minded,

48:48 but if I was working at a company and they said, hey guys,

48:51 I know things have been going bad for the past few quarters,

48:54 but the good news is we've hired a psychic.

48:56 I'd be like, Okay, if you'll excuse me,

49:00 I'm going to go on ZipRecruiter and see if there are

49:03 any other companies out there who are hiring for my position.

49:06 What?

49:06 I do want.

49:07 To work somewhere that is open to the spirit realm,

49:09 but that's a bit too open, you know?

49:12 I mean, I actually do like that I would love to work

49:14 in a company that had a psychic on staff, just for the vibes.

49:18 Yeah, yeah.

49:20 Do you know what I mean?

49:21 Just like lunchtime vibes.

49:21 Just go check in with the psychic, see how things are.

49:23 I like that actually, because we've worked in a dog office.

49:26 Why not have a psychic friendly office?

49:28 Well, whatever role you're looking to fill,

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49:32 and handy tools like the Invite to Apply feature.

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49:42 In fact, four out of five employers who post

49:45 on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidates within the first day.

49:49 See for yourself.

49:50 Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com/trevor

49:54 that's ziprecruiter.com/tree the org ZipRecruiter.

49:59 The smartest way to hire.

50:03 It's also it's also difficult to try and explain

50:06 to people how many fights in their relationship aren't necessarily fights,

50:11 but they're a manifestation of ADHD.

50:13 Meeting up with non ADHD.

50:16 So I didn't until I like delved into all of this.

50:19 I didn't know that for an ADHD brain for the most part not all brains,

50:24 but for most ADHD brains arguments are fun.

50:28 Yes, because this cycle of interaction there's a term for.

50:31 Coercive cycle of interaction.

50:34 Reinforced by your coercive behaviors.

50:36 And this is what we teach in behavioral parent management training.

50:38 Another plug for an evidence based intervention

50:41 for ADHD itself and behavioral parent management training.

50:45 The first step is teaching parents about

50:47 the coercive cycle of interaction and how

50:49 their kids are reinforced to continue arguing

50:51 because they eventually get what they want,

50:53 and parents are reinforced to be more

50:55 punitive because they eventually get what they want.

50:57 So when you get when you've done that as a child with your parent,

51:00 and then you get into a relationship and you're like,

51:02 I can prove that I'm right, I can get you to see that the way

51:05 I'm thinking is the way you should be thinking.

51:07 And you just continue to engage in this spiral until you win.

51:10 And the other person is pissed.

51:11 Oh, they gave up because they're desperate.

51:14 They're example.

51:14 So ADHD person can keep.

51:15 Can they keep going along and you'll be like, can you just stop?

51:20 And they're like, no.

51:21 So instead of telling them to stop,

51:23 you give them the positive opposite behavior.

51:25 The two do behavior.

51:27 So instead of would you stop talking?

51:29 It's can we take a quiet moment?

51:32 Can you be quiet?

51:32 What do I want you to do?

51:34 Okay, so instead of, stop arguing, can we change the subject?

51:40 Or sometimes you got to kind of just turn away and, like,

51:42 wait for to catch them being good and then turn back.

51:45 Like, if you're taking me down that spiral where you're trying to argue with me,

51:48 I'm going to, like, turn away, pretend to do something else.

51:50 And then the minute you get quiet, even if is by accident.

51:53 Thanks, driver, for being quiet.

51:56 But I think.

51:56 I think sometimes people take for granted.

51:58 And I'm saying this from experience is like ADHD people.

52:02 We are not.

52:03 We are not arguing.

52:04 And you're not an ADHD person.

52:06 You are a person with a neurodivergent brain.

52:08 Okay.

52:10 First of all, I feel like you did.

52:12 There was like, it's like going, you don't homeless you, unhoused you.

52:15 That's what you just said.

52:16 She said the poetic.

52:17 But you really did.

52:18 You really did you like.

52:19 No, Trevor, you are not.

52:21 A homeless person.

52:22 You were a person who does not have a home.

52:24 Live in you are now seriously makes a difference.

52:27 Okay, okay, fine.

52:28 You are Trevor.

52:29 Yes.

52:29 Happens to have a brain that is neurodivergent.

52:32 Okay, okay, I'll take that.

52:33 All right.

52:34 So sorry I got.

52:35 No, no, this is fine.

52:36 So I think when people take for granted is this.

52:40 And sometimes it's because we don't know to articulate it as people.

52:43 Sometimes we don't even we don't even know what's happening.

52:46 Some people think of it as an argument, but it's not an argument.

52:50 You get what I'm saying.

52:51 So the ADHD brain is just having fun.

52:53 Yeah.

52:53 And it's going, let's discuss the merits of and you just go.

52:57 It's just so you can be exact.

52:58 And you're spinning and you're spinning and you

52:59 spinning and you spinning and you spinning,

53:01 but you just having fun trying to figure this puzzle out.

53:03 Now a non ADHD person goes like, no, but but but.

53:06 What do you why you just let it go okay.

53:09 They get it.

53:10 They're getting.

53:10 Angry.

53:11 And then at the end of it and I've

53:12 seen this happened like in my group of friends.

53:15 All the ADHD friends will like hang out together.

53:18 All the friends who have a neurodivergent brain.

53:21 Yes.

53:24 They thank you for.

53:25 Using that.

53:25 Term.

53:26 They'll be energized at the end of a group

53:28 argument and they'll go like, that was fun.

53:30 And then all the friends who don't

53:32 have a neurodivergent brain hissed, they are pissed.

53:35 They're they're worn out.

53:37 They're carrying it.

53:38 I can't believe you.

53:39 You said you.

53:40 Why did we fight?

53:40 You know what?

53:41 I'm tired.

53:42 And you and you and the rest of us are going.

53:44 Wait, what?

53:44 This was fantastic.

53:46 This was fantastic.

53:47 We argued the merits of Mesopotamian laws and.

53:50 And from that, we understood why we shouldn't be eating fried chicken tonight.

53:54 Just the understanding of it helps, because to your point,

53:59 if you understand that I'm not doing something to you,

54:02 yes, then you don't think of it that way.

54:05 Like so, you know, some divergences, we'll call them,

54:08 whatever they may be, physical or mental, are more apparent than others.

54:13 If somebody's blind, we normally can see that they're blind.

54:17 If that person bumps into you, most rational human beings will never go.

54:22 You're right.

54:23 What were you going to bump into?

54:25 You'll be like, oh man, that person is blind.

54:27 Oh, person's blind, you know what I mean?

54:30 If somebody rolls up in a wheelchair and they can't go up the stairs,

54:33 no one goes like, get up the stairs.

54:34 You go like, oh, let's get the ramp.

54:36 Or can we help someone?

54:37 Because there's a signifier that tells

54:40 us that this person is divergent physically,

54:43 mentally, there's almost no signifiers for this.

54:46 So you meet someone with ADHD, you don't realize that you started speaking.

54:52 Their brain hadn't even started pressing the record button, right?

54:56 You started a whole conversation.

54:57 You got home, you started talking to your partner.

54:59 Oh.

55:00 Hey, honey, you know, I was just thinking we got to do.

55:02 And don't forget the thing.

55:03 And, you know, I can't believe as well.

55:04 And then the person goes, like, what?

55:07 What just happened?

55:08 And they're like, oh, my God, did you listen to anything I just said.

55:11 Oh, it's so annoying.

55:13 Yes.

55:13 And it's not that they're not listening to you.

55:17 If there was a way for you to be, you know,

55:19 if they could signify it, you'd realize, oh, the record button wasn't on.

55:23 You hadn't paused for a moment,

55:24 the same way I've seen people pull up their phones,

55:27 stand at a concert and record a moment, and then I look at their phone.

55:30 I realize they never press the record button,

55:32 but then they they blame themselves.

55:34 They go, I don't press record.

55:37 I'm an idiot.

55:37 Yes.

55:38 And I sometimes say to people,

55:39 I know it's a bit of a burden, but think of it that way.

55:42 When you have an ADHD partner, ask yourself if you've pressed record.

55:45 Like one of my best friends taught me this and he has ADHD,

55:48 but he literally will be talking and he'll

55:50 notice that my brain is I'm finishing an email.

55:53 He'll say like, oh man, I got to tell you, this thing that happened.

55:56 So the I was at the office and and then he'll pause and you'll go,

55:59 like, I'll wait for you to finish.

56:01 Yes.

56:01 And I go, no, no, I'm here.

56:03 He's like, no, no, no, finish the email.

56:05 Do you know, the funny thing is I'm hearing you both speak today.

56:08 I think there's something about if you're the non ADHD parent or partner,

56:14 whatever you are in relation to someone with ADHD,

56:17 I think it can really increase your empathy and your sense

56:21 of patience if you really sit with the diagnosis.

56:24 Yeah, because what you're saying right now,

56:28 whether somebody has ADHD or not to say to your partner,

56:32 let me just finish what you're doing.

56:33 We'll talk when like, you can give me your full attention.

56:36 Yeah.

56:36 What changed?

56:37 So many times or even dealing with your child?

56:40 Because sometimes I, like you, just say things to a kid.

56:42 But maybe the kid is like, with their Legos,

56:44 with their dolls or whatever they had had.

56:46 They.

56:46 Have you pressed record?

56:47 Yeah.

56:47 Have you pressed record?

56:48 You haven't pressed.

56:49 Okay.

56:49 We'll come back to it.

56:50 Yes.

56:51 It kind of just transform.

56:52 Oh, I need you to press record.

56:53 Right.

56:54 That also helps me as well.

56:55 Yeah.

56:55 Someone goes like, hey, no, no.

56:56 Can you put that down?

56:57 Yeah.

56:57 No, no, I need you.

56:58 Then I'm like, oh okay.

56:59 You even, even even signaling urgency helps an ADHD brain.

57:03 Absolutely.

57:04 So you say to me like if you as Christian I'll go like,

57:07 oh friend, I need your help.

57:08 Immediately.

57:09 My brain goes like, yo, what's happening?

57:10 I love that what's happening?

57:12 And then I focus.

57:13 I won't look at my phone, I won't, but if you just tell a story and it's

57:16 like the music of it doesn't signal urgency.

57:19 And then the name and then and and my brain just goes like,

57:21 oh, she doesn't need me.

57:23 And I don't realize my brain's doing this.

57:25 I'm thinking of four things at the same time.

57:27 Is how you communicate to an ADHD.

57:29 It's ADHD.

57:30 Complete.

57:30 Make sure record has been pressed.

57:32 Then you can like fight with them if they're

57:34 not doing the things you hope them to do.

57:35 But I promise you, the difference it makes is insane.

57:38 You say, I need you to listen to me right now,

57:41 or you say, let me know when you're done.

57:43 And all of a sudden it just changes the dynamic that you have with somebody.

57:46 And that's the antecedent intervention that's

57:48 setting up the environment for success.

57:50 Yeah.

57:51 You say in person record or let me know when you're ready

57:53 to press record signals to his brain that I've got to do something.

57:58 I've got to behave differently.

57:59 Yeah.

57:59 And then he's able to follow through.

58:01 And then you reinforce and because then you continue to talk to him,

58:03 once you know that, he's ready to listen, okay.

58:06 Consequences.

58:06 You all are connected.

58:08 So like right.

58:09 What you are jazzy right now there was connection there.

58:11 You gave feedback about when you are able to really hear her.

58:15 And then you were like, thank you for giving me that feedback,

58:17 because now I know how to come in when I need to talk to you.

58:20 And that's what does happen in partnerships and relationships.

58:23 Whether it's parent to child.

58:26 Parent to child, spouse to family, family to family,

58:29 that's what we don't that's like a process thing.

58:32 We don't take time to process things because we're so

58:35 focused on moving forward and getting to the next phase.

58:37 Yeah.

58:37 And so to have the opportunity to say, especially to your significant other,

58:42 I need you to press record or I need you to say,

58:45 hey, can you put your phone down?

58:47 Because like with kids, we're accustomed to like snatching a tablet,

58:51 turn it off screen to get them focus.

58:53 As adults, we're just as guilty of being preoccupied with Instagram,

58:57 with our screens, with our phones.

58:59 And sometimes we need help to get away from those things

59:02 so we can actually attend to each other, you know?

59:04 And like one of the things I say to little kids

59:06 that I'm working with, an intervention is, give me your art.

59:08 Thank you for looking at me.

59:10 Now that I know that you're looking, I think you can listen.

59:12 Please pass me that.

59:13 And then we continue to maintain eye contact.

59:16 That really helps them to know that I'm engaged and so on a relationship,

59:20 if you have ADHD or you don't have ADHD,

59:23 I think that's a skill that we could all learn because many of us

59:26 think we have ADHD because we are so wired to screens right now.

59:30 We're so reinforced with screens with so reinforced by multitasking.

59:33 We, are hearing a lot of noise,

59:35 and we don't take a lot of time to be fully present and aware in this moment.

59:39 I had to I have a question, yeah, about setting up for success that I,

59:45 I've seen a lot of parents grapple with, and it's the question of medication.

59:48 Yes.

59:48 Now I'm a millennial and I and I

59:51 think we're like the Ritalin generation as well.

59:54 And there's a lot of millennials who felt that they were overmedicated,

59:58 that they looked back at their childhood and they're like, I felt like a zombie.

1:00:01 They're trying to figure out who they are

1:00:02 without the presence of some sort of medication.

1:00:05 And I think a consequence of that is

1:00:07 that a lot of millennial people who are becoming parents now,

1:00:10 who are medicated as kids, are maybe reluctant to medicate their children,

1:00:13 do not know when they should introduce that modality.

1:00:16 What are the effects of it?

1:00:18 Can you even, you know, I struggle giving my kids Tylenol.

1:00:21 I'm like, is.

1:00:22 This a gateway to my dad now?

1:00:23 Anyway, okay, so let me talk to you about that gateway drug thing.

1:00:26 In my opinion, that is a cultural belief

1:00:28 that comes out of the crack pandemic, right?

1:00:30 We know that there were specific plans and things that were done

1:00:35 to make sure that a certain group of people were destroyed by a drug.

1:00:41 And over time, we have become very wary and suspicious.

1:00:45 And it is healthy cultural paranoia about the use of medications and drugs.

1:00:50 Yeah.

1:00:50 How can we get hooked?

1:00:51 How could this ruin life for us?

1:00:53 Because we had a whole generation that this impacted?

1:00:56 What I want you to know when it comes to stimulant medication,

1:01:01 any of the psychotropic medications is

1:01:03 consider the ways that you are self-medicating.

1:01:07 Are you using gummies?

1:01:09 And we just to get out of the bed half the time.

1:01:12 How much alcohol are you drinking?

1:01:14 How much are you indulging and overeating?

1:01:16 Is this a symptom of some difficulty that you are having in your life?

1:01:20 The medication you take for depression is not the same

1:01:23 class of medication that we take to address ADHD.

1:01:25 And so what you need to know is for stimulants.

1:01:29 Stimulus can be abused and they're the same class like they're amphetamines.

1:01:33 Those things amphetamines are similar to what's called cocaine right.

1:01:38 It's an amphetamine as well.

1:01:39 The difference is it's highly regulated.

1:01:41 It's been studied.

1:01:42 It's been studied in children.

1:01:43 And we can pretty much tell that there have been there's

1:01:46 at least 30 years worth of data about people being successfully treated.

1:01:50 One thing about stimulant medication is once it's in your system,

1:01:53 eight hours typically is out of your system.

1:01:55 Unlike other classes of medication that take weeks to build up in your system.

1:01:59 That's like anti-depressants.

1:02:00 Takes about two.

1:02:01 Weeks.

1:02:01 You can't you can't go off of them right instantly.

1:02:04 So I'll tell you one of the craziest,

1:02:06 craziest things I learned actually made me really,

1:02:09 really sad because then I had to go

1:02:11 back and think about how it affected my relationships.

1:02:16 I have had this crippling feeling whenever I travel day one of any trip,

1:02:25 I'll fly somewhere, I land a vacation and immediately I go, I need to go home.

1:02:32 Or anxiety.

1:02:33 Immediately.

1:02:34 And my brain is like, I need to go home.

1:02:35 I need to go home.

1:02:36 What am I?

1:02:36 What am I doing here?

1:02:37 I need to go home and go home.

1:02:37 I need to go home.

1:02:38 I need to go home.

1:02:39 I need to go home.

1:02:39 So what would happen is sometimes I'd be on a trip.

1:02:42 I would be with my partner with somewhere.

1:02:44 They couldn't get me to leave the hotel room.

1:02:46 And.

1:02:46 They couldn't get me.

1:02:47 And they would be like, what is going on?

1:02:49 I was like, I think,

1:02:50 I think I need to go home and I can't imagine what they were going through.

1:02:53 But for me, I was and I was, I was trapped.

1:02:55 And until I understood how dependent and ADHD brain is on routine.

1:03:03 Did I then understand what was happening was like, oh, because it's a new place.

1:03:08 Time zones have screwed me over.

1:03:10 I also have nothing to do, which is the most crippling thing.

1:03:13 Funny enough for an ADHD brain.

1:03:15 What are we doing?

1:03:16 What do you want to do?

1:03:17 Right?

1:03:17 What do you mean what do I want to do?

1:03:18 I don't know, my brain jams my brain.

1:03:21 I know how to give me a schedule.

1:03:23 That's from, you know, 8:00 am until midnight.

1:03:26 I'm fine.

1:03:27 Give me space.

1:03:28 The brain panics, ADHD, you know, too many choices.

1:03:31 And then now, literally, what I'll do is I'll only medicate most

1:03:34 of the time when I'm traveling first day,

1:03:37 because I just know for that first day it just brings my brain down.

1:03:41 I don't think about what's tomorrow, what's the next day,

1:03:43 what's the next day, what am I doing on the trip?

1:03:45 What are the because I would rush to the conclusion of the trip.

1:03:47 And I know a lot of people will do that with ADHD

1:03:50 in the now and not now is your brain has the ability.

1:03:55 But I mean infinitely.

1:03:57 So do you know how many ADHD people I'll

1:03:59 speak to as like kids or parents or just people?

1:04:02 And I have such empathy for them because I go,

1:04:05 you don't understand what you're experiencing.

1:04:07 So you might think, for instance, you you are you have depression.

1:04:11 But I go, no, no, your depression is from ADHD is not just like a depression,

1:04:14 which it could be on its own.

1:04:16 But sometimes this is what like my brain will do.

1:04:19 And I've spoken to a lot of people who experience this.

1:04:22 I'll wake up in the morning, I go, what time is it?

1:04:26 Oh, it's 30 minutes before I need to get up.

1:04:29 Okay.

1:04:30 Should I sleep now?

1:04:30 Maybe I'll wake up.

1:04:31 Okay.

1:04:31 I'll wake up then.

1:04:32 What I do?

1:04:33 I gotta go brush my teeth.

1:04:34 Then I've got a shower.

1:04:36 I want to get dressed, then I've got to leave the house.

1:04:39 Then I've got to go to the office.

1:04:40 Now.

1:04:41 I got to have that meeting that I'm going to have that next meeting,

1:04:43 that I'm gonna have that other meeting, then I'm going to do that thing.

1:04:45 Then I've got to go to the dinner that that those people have planned.

1:04:47 Then I had to come.

1:04:48 Oh, then I've got to find time to work out.

1:04:49 Then I got to my plan, my outfit for the way.

1:04:52 Then you do it the next day.

1:04:54 You do the same thing.

1:04:56 You brush your teeth again.

1:04:57 Oh, you got to get clothes.

1:04:58 Okay.

1:04:59 Wait.

1:04:59 How many years does this happen for?

1:05:01 Oh, wait.

1:05:02 So we just going to do this for like 80 years?

1:05:04 90 years?

1:05:05 We're just going to keep on doing this.

1:05:07 And then what the next generation does it.

1:05:09 And then as well.

1:05:10 Why am I waking up?

1:05:11 Wait I'm going to come back to bed anyway.

1:05:12 What's the point of leaving the bed?

1:05:13 Why am I leave?

1:05:14 Why am I waking up?

1:05:15 What are we all doing?

1:05:16 Why are we building these things?

1:05:17 Why are we not?

1:05:17 And you will be shocked at how ADHD

1:05:21 brains can do this for everything, for people.

1:05:24 So even in a relationship, you'll have a fight.

1:05:31 And then your brain goes, oh, fight.

1:05:34 This is.

1:05:34 And this is how.

1:05:35 And this is hard.

1:05:36 And what's the point of relationships?

1:05:38 And yes, everything ends with.

1:05:40 And there's typically a time of day.

1:05:42 There's a place where everybody's going.

1:05:44 Yes, you're not wrong.

1:05:45 It's time of.

1:05:46 Day.

1:05:46 Ruminate.

1:05:46 And all the rumination is in as an anxiety thing, too.

1:05:49 But that rumination as part of ADHD is made.

1:05:51 It really is.

1:05:52 And if there's a certain time of day I'm a nighttime person, I can lose my mind.

1:05:56 And I can, I tell you so if there's one thing I've learned from my brain,

1:06:01 the mornings is where I have the biggest feelings of what

1:06:05 is the point of this whole thing we're doing right?

1:06:09 The evenings.

1:06:10 This is where I have the I mean, anything can happen.

1:06:13 So it's like an existential morning.

1:06:17 You're crazy.

1:06:18 Evening.

1:06:18 Yo.

1:06:19 The morning, the morning.

1:06:20 No.

1:06:20 The mornings.

1:06:21 Let me tell you something.

1:06:22 In the morning.

1:06:23 Can I tell you something?

1:06:24 The worst thing you can do to me in the morning.

1:06:26 The worst thing you can do to me in the morning.

1:06:28 And I've experienced this.

1:06:30 I remember someone turn to me in the morning and said, hey, do you love me?

1:06:34 This is in the morning.

1:06:37 What do you left me?

1:06:38 Did you love them?

1:06:39 And I did so, but.

1:06:40 I did, but I did, but my brain went.

1:06:43 Nuts.

1:06:45 How does anyone define love?

1:06:47 What is love?

1:06:48 Oh, and that pissed that.

1:06:49 Oh, you.

1:06:50 Oh that poor.

1:06:51 And what is it about my words that will

1:06:53 make you feel like your day got better or worse?

1:06:55 So you're like.

1:06:55 I don't know.

1:06:56 My brain was like, oh, and my brain did that.

1:06:58 And in my brain, maybe this was two seconds, but it lasted a lifetime.

1:07:02 A person, the.

1:07:03 Person that went, oh, what was that pause?

1:07:04 What was that past?

1:07:05 And then I go, no, no, no.

1:07:07 Yeah, of course I love you.

1:07:08 Then they go like, no, what was that?

1:07:09 Pause.

1:07:09 And now we're in fight land.

1:07:11 But they just started to fight.

1:07:13 Right.

1:07:13 But we were in fight land because the person like,

1:07:15 I can't believe you put why do you put a knife?

1:07:16 I explain it, it's terrible.

1:07:17 Well, but why would you even think that?

1:07:19 What kind of person would think.

1:07:20 You just always have a message for the person of the person

1:07:22 with a person with ADHD is not always about you.

1:07:25 That's hard to learn.

1:07:26 That's hard because it.

1:07:27 Always should be.

1:07:28 What it is about me.

1:07:29 But it's not like that pause or that like

1:07:32 what it says is not necessarily about you.

1:07:35 It's about something is going on in that person's

1:07:37 head that you don't even know about you.

1:07:38 Yeah, the night time version is and I know

1:07:41 this with like a lot of my ADHD friends, that's like, we call that sugar time.

1:07:47 Is second time.

1:07:47 Oh my.

1:07:48 It's literally it came from start zooming.

1:07:50 No, it came from the direct thing which was sugar.

1:07:52 So we all start craving sugar, I can't eat sweet things in the morning.

1:07:57 Pancakes or.

1:07:57 I don't know how people do that.

1:07:59 I'm like, no little sugar cereal, I can't I night time.

1:08:04 Let me tell you something.

1:08:05 If there is sugar hidden in your house, I will find it.

1:08:08 Okay, if you think there's sugar in your house and you're not sure where it is,

1:08:12 call me over night and I will find that sugar for you.

1:08:16 And then my brain then goes like but for.

1:08:18 And we call it sugar time because it's like

1:08:20 the it's sort of the manifestation of sugar as a concept.

1:08:23 Is it like sugar?

1:08:24 Time for everything.

1:08:25 Then it's like, what's happening?

1:08:27 Where's it happening?

1:08:28 Who's it happening with, and where are we going?

1:08:30 What do we do?

1:08:31 Oh yeah.

1:08:31 Oh, this is sleep is terrible.

1:08:34 Nothing good has ever happened during sleep.

1:08:36 No.

1:08:36 Tell me one great story that involves sleep.

1:08:38 None.

1:08:39 What about what about a good dream?

1:08:40 History is there's no.

1:08:42 I mean, okay, MLK had a dream.

1:08:44 Okay.

1:08:45 Yes.

1:08:46 Oh, wait.

1:08:47 No.

1:08:47 When he first had the dream.

1:08:48 He had the dream.

1:08:49 So maybe.

1:08:50 That's.

1:08:50 The one.

1:08:50 That's the only great thing that's happened in sleep was his dream.

1:08:54 The rest of history happened when people were awake.

1:08:57 I love that you said that because it's it's it's learning yourself,

1:09:01 being honest with yourself.

1:09:03 And if there's one piece of advice I would give people think of the ADHD

1:09:08 as this little gremlin passenger in my life who

1:09:10 I have a fun relationship with, by the way.

1:09:12 I don't resent it.

1:09:13 Yeah, I don't hate it.

1:09:15 But what I will I'll do is I'll call it out.

1:09:17 Like I'll actively say at times.

1:09:19 You'll find if you leave a microphone in my home randomly,

1:09:22 you'll hear me going, hello ADHD, I just say this every now and again.

1:09:27 I'll just be like, there you my mom's going to be like, yeah, you're.

1:09:31 Yeah, my mom.

1:09:33 Is the spirit.

1:09:35 My mom actually, love it.

1:09:37 Yes.

1:09:38 But I promise you.

1:09:40 I promise you I do that all the time.

1:09:42 Yes.

1:09:43 Because I've also learned for people with ADHD,

1:09:45 it's nice to to to remove the shame.

1:09:48 Yeah.

1:09:49 Because people will tell you the thing you're experiencing is bullshit.

1:09:53 They'll tell you that it's not real.

1:09:54 You need to get over it.

1:09:55 You just need to work just to function, function, function.

1:09:57 But people just say this to you, but it's like, no, just trust me.

1:10:01 Take it out of yourself and say, Hello, old friend.

1:10:06 Eliza.

1:10:06 Hello.

1:10:06 Yeah.

1:10:07 You just like, look at you.

1:10:08 You want some ice cream?

1:10:09 Do you.

1:10:09 Know ice cream for.

1:10:10 You?

1:10:10 You know.

1:10:11 And then I'll.

1:10:11 I'll even play the game.

1:10:12 I'll be like, okay, how about this?

1:10:14 If you have very cold water and you still want ice cream,

1:10:16 30 minutes later, you can do it.

1:10:19 And then I'll go and drink like a cold

1:10:21 glass of water and see what happens in 30 minutes,

1:10:23 90% of the time I don't want the ice cream.

1:10:26 You've you've moved on.

1:10:27 Yeah, but it's also because I've started to learn.

1:10:29 I've started to learn that sometimes the thing

1:10:31 that you look like this is for everyone.

1:10:34 The thing that you craving is

1:10:36 oftentimes the manifestation of lacking something else.

1:10:38 Yeah.

1:10:39 So what I've tried to learn to do is go, what is happening right now?

1:10:44 I'm craving ice cream.

1:10:46 But what is ice cream?

1:10:47 It's a cold thing to sweet thing.

1:10:49 Let me try.

1:10:49 Break it down.

1:10:50 Start with the cold.

1:10:51 You're a thinker.

1:10:52 Yeah, I am a overthinker.

1:10:53 Yeah.

1:10:54 So I start with a cold.

1:10:56 And then I go.

1:10:56 And also.

1:10:57 What does it do?

1:10:58 Okay.

1:10:58 It also does hydrate me.

1:10:59 So I'll go with something cold and hydrating that has no sugar.

1:11:02 See how I feel.

1:11:04 And most of the time I find those small things.

1:11:06 But I gamify everything in my life.

1:11:08 Too, right?

1:11:09 So that's 80s brain again.

1:11:10 The superpower.

1:11:11 You're a thinker.

1:11:13 You think very deeply,

1:11:14 and then you are willing to try different interventions to solve your problem.

1:11:19 So you don't just give up and give in to the ice cream.

1:11:22 And a brain that's like,

1:11:23 maybe depressed might just say, well, forget it, it's hopeless.

1:11:26 It's worthless.

1:11:27 I'm just going to give in to the ice cream.

1:11:29 You're like, no, this is serving a function.

1:11:31 I need to try to figure out what the function of this craving is.

1:11:34 How can I come up with a plan so that I don't engage in this behavior?

1:11:37 Like there's multiple levels,

1:11:39 and that can be exhausting if you have to do it with every decision you make,

1:11:43 which some people get into like analysis paralysis when it comes to that ADHD,

1:11:47 because they're over thinking whether or not and it's not necessarily anxiety,

1:11:51 but it's like trying to plan out the consequences.

1:11:55 Yes, because.

1:11:55 You're a problem solver.

1:11:56 Yes.

1:11:57 And problem solvers are very tied to consequence of behavior.

1:12:01 So it's like, well, if I did it this way,

1:12:04 this might happen in this way, this might happen if I did it this way.

1:12:07 And then you've lost track of time while you're doing all of that.

1:12:10 So I think is good.

1:12:11 That would be a thinker.

1:12:12 Yeah.

1:12:12 Which is also why the capitalistic societies are.

1:12:16 Right to bring.

1:12:16 It back.

1:12:17 Yeah.

1:12:17 Why this has been so useful for me.

1:12:19 I just think for people that are in community with people and with ADHD,

1:12:24 whether you're a parent, partner or a friend,

1:12:26 it's like our job is to like understand the superpower.

1:12:29 Like understand how you how it works.

1:12:32 Understand if you're drinking some water late at night.

1:12:36 Oh, they probably wanted ice cream.

1:12:37 They're having the water.

1:12:39 Leave them.

1:12:39 Don't be like.

1:12:40 Why are you drinking?

1:12:41 Yeah, glass.

1:12:41 Of water at 1230 in the morning.

1:12:43 To be like this is their way of coping.

1:12:46 And you just say to our community, yeah,

1:12:48 we need to be in community with people and other people

1:12:52 who have similar and dissimilar experience because it can get very lonely.

1:12:56 Yeah, it sounds like a lonely.

1:12:57 It can be very lonely.

1:12:58 You got to be in community,

1:13:00 like you got to find your tribe and this is a big thing

1:13:04 for me right now with the young adults I'm working with who have ADHD.

1:13:08 It's like they have not found their tribe.

1:13:10 Yeah.

1:13:10 And then they internalize it, and then they feel super depressed,

1:13:13 like, what is wrong with me?

1:13:15 Why does it never work?

1:13:16 And so I want I want to tell young adults with ADHD and teens with ADHD,

1:13:20 you will find your tribe,

1:13:21 but you have got to seek them out and that tribe may not be the people who like,

1:13:27 look like you all who have the same interests.

1:13:29 But the superpower of having ADHD is you're willing

1:13:32 to put yourself out there and take a risk.

1:13:34 And so you may have to take a risk with different people.

1:13:37 You have a tribe.

1:13:38 You haven't found it yet.

1:13:40 Because you have found your tribe.

1:13:41 Doesn't mean you'll never find your tribe,

1:13:43 because I also get worried about those people in terms of suicide out.

1:13:46 Because there's the loneliness, there's the like, does anybody care about me?

1:13:49 I can't get anything right.

1:13:50 What's your relationship and what's wrong with me?

1:13:53 And so just like having some hope and knowing there

1:13:56 is you've got to try and then parents leave them alone.

1:13:59 If the tribe is online like they have a try.

1:14:02 Yeah.

1:14:03 I just want you to have some social connections, safe social connections.

1:14:05 I want you playing with like adults of your kid.

1:14:08 But we need to have, that's why we have kids in sports and doing activities.

1:14:13 We want them to build relationships with different groups of people.

1:14:15 But as adults, once we get into our careers, we can become isolated.

1:14:20 And so you have got to have community.

1:14:22 You got to have a tribe.

1:14:24 You have to have community.

1:14:25 Yeah.

1:14:25 You guys are a tribe.

1:14:27 Yeah, reluctantly.

1:14:30 I love it.

1:14:30 And any other way you guys.

1:14:33 Don't go anywhere because we got more.

1:14:35 What now?

1:14:36 After this.

1:14:44 You know, there's an idea that I have often say to Christiana, I go,

1:14:48 there's moments where I dream of being a dictator,

1:14:51 just like a like a small island.

1:14:54 Said this.

1:14:55 You said this is not the time.

1:14:56 Yeah.

1:14:57 I'm not Pakistan.

1:14:59 I would I would love to be a dictator of a small island,

1:15:02 though, like just a small place,

1:15:03 because I think the small number helps you be a little more nimble,

1:15:06 you know, like like like Sweden, for instance.

1:15:08 I would love you as an advisor, you know, Swedes, 4 million people or whatever.

1:15:11 It's like, it's easy.

1:15:12 It's easier to do things and see how they work.

1:15:15 300 million people is chaos.

1:15:17 And, and one of the experiments I would love to conduct because I,

1:15:22 I, I'm sure there will be second system effects, don't get me wrong.

1:15:26 But I wonder what would happen.

1:15:28 Two things.

1:15:28 One, I wonder what would happen if we treated almost everybody

1:15:34 who we think is an outlier in society just for ADHD.

1:15:38 And I know this is a gross mal practicing of science and medicine,

1:15:42 so don't cosign this at all.

1:15:44 I'm just telling you about my crazy world.

1:15:47 I would love to see what would happen.

1:15:49 No joke if everyone who is homeless

1:15:52 gets ADHD medication like people in the street.

1:15:56 Like we don't want people like that person is crazy.

1:15:57 I genuinely would love to see what I just want to see what would happen.

1:16:00 You give all of them ADHD medication, you give everyone in prison,

1:16:04 ADHD medication, or every kid who's been expelled ADHD everyone.

1:16:08 I'm willing to bet money.

1:16:10 Yes they will be.

1:16:11 Please terms and conditions apply.

1:16:13 There's obviously gonna be something for you.

1:16:14 I want him to be making this exact ADHD medication.

1:16:16 Will go very bad.

1:16:17 There you.

1:16:17 Go.

1:16:18 So that's.

1:16:18 Why I'm sure they have a hard.

1:16:19 Problem.

1:16:19 Terms and conditions.

1:16:20 Apply.

1:16:20 Right.

1:16:20 Those are terms.

1:16:21 And conditions apply.

1:16:22 I'm not saying, but I'm willing to bet you will see

1:16:26 a massive amount of that population no longer have the problem.

1:16:30 And I can't help but think to myself,

1:16:32 how many people in our society are one intervention

1:16:36 away and not a massive one, by the way, right?

1:16:39 One intervention away from being fully back in society,

1:16:43 fully part of a community,

1:16:45 and fully being back to who they wish to be as a human being.

1:16:49 Do you know what I mean?

1:16:49 Yeah.

1:16:50 So I'm from Chicago originally and Cook County Jail at one time.

1:16:56 They are the person who was in charge

1:16:58 of the director was a clinical psychologist.

1:17:00 And I think this was a few years back, and she did a program where she had

1:17:05 when people came in and they were repeat offenders,

1:17:07 they got a psych eval as part of the psyche vows,

1:17:11 they were able to determine that many

1:17:13 of the people who were coming through this system,

1:17:15 this program actually had met criteria for diagnoses,

1:17:19 and then they were able to get them medicated, right.

1:17:21 They were able to get them on.

1:17:22 Even if it wasn't medication.

1:17:23 They were able to get them some psychotherapeutic intervention.

1:17:26 Yeah.

1:17:26 And the types of gains that can be made from doing that type of intervention.

1:17:30 Right.

1:17:30 So even if you don't have an island,

1:17:33 what will happen in terms of reform in the justice system?

1:17:37 If people had access to high quality mental health care before they got there?

1:17:43 Right.

1:17:43 I'm in private practice.

1:17:46 People will ask, why don't you accept insurance?

1:17:48 Insurance companies don't value mental health right now.

1:17:51 So they're starting to understand that if we can treat depression,

1:17:55 you're more likely to follow through on your medication

1:17:58 regimen when it comes to the hypertension,

1:18:00 when it when it comes to like the diabetes, right.

1:18:03 If you're not depressed, if I've treated your depression,

1:18:05 you're going to be more likely

1:18:06 to change your lifestyle factors exercise, diet, etc..

1:18:11 So if we address mental health first,

1:18:13 we can actually do medicine, physiological medicine,

1:18:17 a big service because people would be engaged and invested in taking care

1:18:22 of their bodies and making different choices about the way they ate, etc., etc.

1:18:26 but it's almost like mental health care is an afterthought.

1:18:29 And so I think there are many different avenues

1:18:32 to actually make what you want to see have it happen.

1:18:34 It could be school systems.

1:18:35 It could be like, juvenile justice systems.

1:18:40 It could.

1:18:40 I just think there's ways I don't think that's a far fetched idea.

1:18:44 May not be an island.

1:18:45 Yeah.

1:18:45 I mean.

1:18:45 You know, I think it's a far fetched.

1:18:48 In.

1:18:48 South Africa without foundation.

1:18:49 The thing we did was we we brought in psychiatric

1:18:53 help to the schools because they didn't have it.

1:18:55 And we found the results were in it was exponential.

1:18:59 Just.

1:18:59 And here's one of the most interesting ones we learned.

1:19:03 We learned that our foundation just having

1:19:06 someone to talk to improved kids scores.

1:19:09 You literally didn't have to fix the problem.

1:19:11 They were kids who were coming from homes where they were neglected,

1:19:14 they were abused, they were beaten, they were whatever it was.

1:19:17 And we were like, what do we do?

1:19:18 How do we fix this?

1:19:20 And then we were humbled to realize that most

1:19:22 of the kids weren't looking for someone to fix it.

1:19:24 They just needed somebody to speak to, and all

1:19:28 of a sudden their grades would improve.

1:19:30 They just needed somebody to say, you're not crazy.

1:19:33 Your parents aren't treating you well, your community isn't looking after you.

1:19:38 And yes, you're validated and the kids scores would

1:19:42 go up and you're like, this is come on.

1:19:45 This is this is beyond basic.

1:19:47 The other thing I think of and, you know,

1:19:49 we we've said it multiple times in this conversation,

1:19:51 and I love how you've tied in.

1:19:54 There was a beautiful conversation that I had on The Daily

1:19:58 Show with a woman who is one of the foremost,

1:20:01 like disability advocates, advocates in the US.

1:20:04 Right.

1:20:04 So she was part of the team

1:20:06 that was behind the Disability Rights Act in America.

1:20:08 So people take for granted.

1:20:10 There was a time when places didn't have ramps right?

1:20:13 Places didn't have any accessibility features at all.

1:20:16 It was like, oh, you can't come up stairs.

1:20:18 Tough luck.

1:20:18 Right.

1:20:20 And she said something really fantastic to me.

1:20:21 She said, you know, the biggest arrogance a mistake people make

1:20:25 is one they always assume that they will never be disabled.

1:20:29 Right?

1:20:29 This is like, no, you just it can happen to you through age,

1:20:32 through accident, through whatever it is in life.

1:20:34 It can always it's it's an opt in service.

1:20:37 Surprisingly.

1:20:39 And she said, you also take for granted how the idea that seems like a burden

1:20:46 today because you're doing it for others is

1:20:48 actually the thing that's going to help you.

1:20:51 So they designed ramps at supermarkets for people with disabilities.

1:20:58 Do you know who uses ramps more than anyone now is people who are fully able

1:21:03 bodied and have found it's an easier way

1:21:05 to roll things up and down into a supermarket.

1:21:08 I'm always with my with you, with my stroller.

1:21:10 Yes.

1:21:11 Ramps again.

1:21:11 Yeah, but changes for me.

1:21:13 I can take my kids into a supermarket because as a yes.

1:21:16 Because there's a ramp.

1:21:17 And then you go, thank you.

1:21:19 Disability advocacy.

1:21:20 Do you get I'm saying all the things and it's like it seems and I think of it.

1:21:24 Let's let's go through everything we discussed today.

1:21:27 We start with the kids.

1:21:28 Yeah, right.

1:21:29 You go everything you're talking about for an ADHD kid,

1:21:33 if we learn how to implement those systems for ADHD kids,

1:21:37 other kids benefits, right?

1:21:39 Yeah.

1:21:39 How do you make a classroom more engaging?

1:21:42 Yeah.

1:21:42 How do you talk to your child?

1:21:44 How do you engage with your child?

1:21:46 How do you empathize with them?

1:21:47 You apply that to a non ADHD brain.

1:21:51 It's still going to be rewarded.

1:21:52 It's still going to reward you.

1:21:54 The things that you said about athletes and finding

1:21:57 purpose on the other side of life and the pivot.

1:21:59 Yeah.

1:22:00 Yeah, that's great for ADHD.

1:22:01 But you know who is also grateful?

1:22:02 Everyone else people are going to switch careers.

1:22:05 People are going to change what they're doing in life.

1:22:06 People are going to find themselves a little unmoored.

1:22:09 And this is the same thing.

1:22:10 All of a sudden, you found a path.

1:22:12 You go to relationships.

1:22:13 Yes, your partner might have ADHD.

1:22:16 And so it helps to say, hey, are you listening to me?

1:22:18 Or I need you to listen right now.

1:22:20 Or actually, hey, I noticed you in your trigger right now.

1:22:23 Go relax.

1:22:24 Go sleep.

1:22:24 Let's not do this now because you're going to spot,

1:22:27 you know, that also helps people in normal relationships.

1:22:30 Yeah, it's just ADHD is the most acute example I find.

1:22:34 And it's also the most obvious at times.

1:22:36 But I think like if we solve the world for ADHD people,

1:22:40 it solves the world for everyone.

1:22:42 We're almost like the Canaries in the coal mine,

1:22:45 I think where, you know, I genuinely.

1:22:46 Think we are.

1:22:47 You're showing like the sickness.

1:22:48 And I think.

1:22:49 Let me tell you something.

1:22:50 No, I'll tell you now.

1:22:51 If a kid thinks it's boring, they're right.

1:22:54 As do you know, because people with, like kids don't.

1:22:56 Kids can't.

1:22:57 Pay attention.

1:22:57 Yo, kids can play 18 hours a fortnight.

1:23:00 They can definitely pay.

1:23:01 I was in, I took my son to a like

1:23:03 a dinner and we were like 45 minutes through and he said,

1:23:07 how do you guys listen so long.

1:23:10 Like ten more minutes?

1:23:11 Can we have those?

1:23:13 Right.

1:23:14 Like it was just going on and on and.

1:23:16 On and it was like, yes, we don't have to do all of it.

1:23:19 Yes.

1:23:19 Do you know what?

1:23:20 I was never bored as a kid where, you know, I was never bored.

1:23:23 Black church never so much because.

1:23:26 Someone would be like, no, it's about listening,

1:23:27 yo, when we would go to White Church.

1:23:29 Yeah, it was just.

1:23:31 All right, here we go.

1:23:32 John 316 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,

1:23:35 that whosoever loved him shall not perish but have eternal life as I all.

1:23:38 I have a black church.

1:23:40 I don't care if you were four years old or 40 years old.

1:23:43 That pastor made that sermon come alive in response.

1:23:48 Yeah, exactly.

1:23:49 Yeah.

1:23:50 You're engaged.

1:23:50 Standing up, you're standing, you're in.

1:23:52 And even as a child, I was like, yes.

1:23:56 In Jesus name.

1:23:58 I was like, wow.

1:23:59 Wow, right, right.

1:24:00 I might not understand all these concepts, but I'm you.

1:24:03 And that kid says, what is happening like this.

1:24:05 And this is a god.

1:24:06 And then I'm like, hey, and the pastor will like, repeat something.

1:24:09 You know, I don't think you heard me say it again.

1:24:11 I'm gonna say it again, right?

1:24:12 I'm gonna say it.

1:24:13 Again because he knows we have ADHD.

1:24:15 You see what I mean?

1:24:15 But no, that works for the whole congregation.

1:24:17 And so I feel like like in these things,

1:24:20 sometimes people I can understand if you don't have ADHD,

1:24:23 you're going like, this silly sounding because

1:24:26 it really sounds like a little quirky little,

1:24:29 you know, disorder that people have.

1:24:31 Everyone has ADHD.

1:24:32 Yeah.

1:24:32 Everything good.

1:24:33 Everybody does.

1:24:33 Well, I also struggle to get out of bed.

1:24:35 Get over it.

1:24:37 You think I like the office?

1:24:39 Get over it.

1:24:40 Oh, please.

1:24:41 You can't pack your suit.

1:24:43 Get over it.

1:24:44 I understand where you're coming from, but mark my words,

1:24:47 if you listen to ADHD people and you quote unquote fix the world for them,

1:24:52 you will live in a better world.

1:24:54 I grew up sometimes that was not quite as loud at night,

1:24:57 but our brains can exist.

1:24:58 I think they can't.

1:24:59 And I think sometimes if you take that so I'll I'll challenge

1:25:02 my friends who are parents of ADHD kids and I'll say this to them,

1:25:05 I'll go and I go, please.

1:25:07 I say this with all the compassion in my heart because I know you're busy.

1:25:10 I know you're tired.

1:25:11 I know, I know all this.

1:25:12 I'm not saying you're not.

1:25:13 And even a person who's in a relationship with someone with ADHD,

1:25:16 I know it's I know it's annoying.

1:25:18 I know how much you hate repeating yourself.

1:25:20 I know how much you feel like you, you know,

1:25:22 going through the same cycle of, I say, all of those caveats,

1:25:26 but you'll be shocked at how much fun you can have and how

1:25:29 much it can benefit you to take it as as a fun challenge.

1:25:32 So, for instance, I say to parents of ADHD kids,

1:25:35 sometimes your child with ADHD who's like climbing on the couch and then

1:25:40 like standing on a thing and then doing somersaults in the living.

1:25:43 You know what they might actually expose

1:25:45 for you if you're willing to listen to it,

1:25:47 they might show you how little you move.

1:25:50 Do.

1:25:51 You know what I'm saying?

1:25:53 Because you're living a sedentary lifestyle, you barely move.

1:25:57 You sit at the office, you sit in your car, and then you sit at home.

1:26:02 Now another child is able to mold themselves to match what you're doing.

1:26:08 An ADHD kid cannot.

1:26:09 They need to get the thing out of their body.

1:26:12 It's cool.

1:26:12 It's got some image on them.

1:26:14 Yeah, pent up energy, but now they're exposing it like like you,

1:26:18 you you go like, this kid can never sit still.

1:26:20 But sometimes you ask yourself like, I've noticed that we sit still quite a lot.

1:26:25 Yes.

1:26:26 Like, look at that as a challenge and go like, okay,

1:26:28 every time they do that, do 20 squats with them,

1:26:30 do jumping jacks with them for a minute.

1:26:32 Do.

1:26:33 Yes, exactly.

1:26:34 But this is.

1:26:35 Already in good shape.

1:26:36 This is my point.

1:26:37 This is exactly my point is that sometimes you can find things

1:26:43 that you've taken for granted that can actually help you as well.

1:26:47 And that, like the gamification can go both ways, is what I'm saying.

1:26:50 But it's like, yeah,

1:26:51 solve the world for others and solve the world for yourself.

1:26:54 I love it.

1:26:55 That's a beautiful refrain.

1:26:57 Yeah.

1:26:57 This has been so much fun.

1:26:58 It was so much fun.

1:26:59 Thank you.

1:26:59 I hope we have you back again at the end.

1:27:01 By the way, thank you for being a bridge as well.

1:27:03 You know, I think as you said, you know, like,

1:27:05 black people just take for granted how culturally certain cultures

1:27:10 are going to catch up to certain ideas in different ways.

1:27:13 Right.

1:27:13 And I remember when I was diagnosed,

1:27:15 my first time actually was when I was diagnosed with Aids.

1:27:18 Back then, they.

1:27:19 Just called in deficit disorder when I was just 80, in fact.

1:27:21 No, that back then they called it hyperactivity.

1:27:24 That's all they called it.

1:27:25 Okay.

1:27:25 So that was like.

1:27:26 This was I was like 6 or 5.

1:27:29 So you know what it probably was was that ICD ten,

1:27:32 which is the international system.

1:27:34 Probably.

1:27:34 Was calling it one thing.

1:27:36 And then the United States system was calling it aid.

1:27:39 Right.

1:27:39 And so now they try to be on the same page.

1:27:42 So they said to me, your title, your they said to my mom,

1:27:45 so the school said to my mom, I guess they did a good job.

1:27:48 They said, hey, you need to take this kid for evaluation.

1:27:51 He's very smart, but he's chaos.

1:27:53 But not he's not rude, he's not anything.

1:27:55 He's just chaos though.

1:27:56 And she took me in and they told her that.

1:27:59 And when we came out by mom, I said, what did they say?

1:28:02 And mom said, I suck at these people.

1:28:03 They they said, you, you you, you hyperactive.

1:28:06 I said, this is a child.

1:28:07 And they said, no, but he's very hyperactive.

1:28:09 And I said, so what do we do when she says, honey, we pray.

1:28:13 We pray.

1:28:14 Right, let's move on.

1:28:15 And I said, but we've been praying.

1:28:16 And she said.

1:28:17 That's we've been praying.

1:28:19 And it hasn't worked.

1:28:20 And she said, yes, sweetie.

1:28:21 And that's then once the praying doesn't work,

1:28:24 then that's what the beatings are for.

1:28:26 Then we will, she said, we'll we'll beat it out of you, my child.

1:28:28 Don't worry.

1:28:29 And your rules?

1:28:29 My favorite thing is she made it seem like it was going to be a team effort.

1:28:33 My mom didn't make it seem like I was going to get.

1:28:35 She was like me.

1:28:36 She was afraid.

1:28:37 She was like.

1:28:37 Honey, I'm not even a threat.

1:28:39 She made it like, honey, you know what, baby?

1:28:41 We're going to beat this thing.

1:28:43 We will take a stick and we will beat this thing out of you, baby.

1:28:47 We're not going to let it win.

1:28:48 And I'm like, this sounds like a team talk, but I'm the one.

1:28:54 Who's going to be beat you in the same job.

1:28:56 But no, I the reason I say thank you

1:28:58 for bridging the gap is because it doesn't matter.

1:29:00 Black, Latino or, you know,

1:29:02 you name it might you know how many of my Asian friends have told

1:29:06 me in a different way they've had like a it's not the spiritual one.

1:29:09 Their one is like a no no, suck it up, keep moving vibe.

1:29:12 Yeah.

1:29:12 That's like up on my brain.

1:29:13 No, no, no.

1:29:14 What do you mean, your brain?

1:29:15 Hey, you make it work.

1:29:16 And I think.

1:29:16 Right, I think it would be great for us to find

1:29:19 those bridges because somebody sees a doctor who looks like them.

1:29:22 Sounds like them is.

1:29:23 So you don't roll your eyes when someone says that's the.

1:29:26 That's a spirit.

1:29:27 That's a that's a demon.

1:29:28 You don't go like.

1:29:29 They bring up a spirit.

1:29:30 Yeah.

1:29:30 I'm totally I'm gonna be like, okay, you did it first.

1:29:34 But you see I think yeah, I think so.

1:29:36 You see, that's what I was going to say.

1:29:38 Yes, that's what I was going to say.

1:29:39 We take for granted that most of the ideas of professionalism

1:29:43 that we've adopted in society are a homogenous idea of professionalism.

1:29:47 Right.

1:29:47 So we go that's not professional.

1:29:49 What we mean is that's not stock standard

1:29:51 white men like WASPy white men as well,

1:29:54 because southern white men are my southern friends.

1:29:56 They have a different vibe of what professionalism is.

1:29:59 They'll say thing, hey darlin.

1:30:00 There's like, hey, hey, that's not professional.

1:30:02 You don't call people darling.

1:30:03 Yes, but then you do.

1:30:05 Yes.

1:30:05 You know, and then you go.

1:30:06 All around the world, Italians have different professionalism.

1:30:08 French people have different professions.

1:30:10 And I think that's something we take for granted when we're treating people,

1:30:13 helping people, discussing things with people.

1:30:16 We forget that guy is an African doctor.

1:30:19 We'll joke with you in a setting where no joke would be told,

1:30:23 you know what I mean?

1:30:24 Like a white person would go, I cannot.

1:30:26 Believe that an African.

1:30:29 Doctor can come in and just be like, so you're dying and you're like, what?

1:30:33 Yeah, you're dying.

1:30:34 You're dead this week.

1:30:35 No, I'm joking, I'm joking.

1:30:36 No.

1:30:37 I'm joking.

1:30:37 No.

1:30:37 The blood test came back.

1:30:39 You're looking.

1:30:39 Good.

1:30:40 Like that is unprofessional, right, African?

1:30:42 There's an element of, like, you.

1:30:44 Come on.

1:30:44 Okay.

1:30:44 You can't be serious all.

1:30:46 The time, right?

1:30:47 And I think those things are beautiful to examine.

1:30:49 It's like it's fun to be in a space with somebody who knows you,

1:30:52 even though they've never met you.

1:30:54 Because then I think they can help you get

1:30:56 to the place where they helping you fix the problem.

1:30:59 But they're not seeing who you are as part of the problem.

1:31:01 They're not seeing your culture as part of the problem.

1:31:03 They're able to split it and go, oh no, no, no, that's not a problem.

1:31:07 That's just black.

1:31:09 This is the thing we're actually trying to solve.

1:31:11 Yeah.

1:31:11 So I'm it's been really wonderful meeting you.

1:31:13 Thank you.

1:31:13 You're doing.

1:31:14 That.

1:31:14 You're doing the good work.

1:31:21 What now with Trevor Noah is produced

1:31:23 by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.

1:31:27 The show was executive produced by Trevor Noah, Samas Yamin and Jody Avigan.

1:31:32 Our senior producer is Jess Hackel.

1:31:34 Claire Slaughter is our producer.

1:31:37 Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown.

1:31:40 Thank you so much for listening.

1:31:41 Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?