Don’t Stop Trying Things | Reed CEO James Reed

0:00 In 1994, James Reed decided to join the family

0:03 business– after being pushed off the fence by his father.

0:06 My father said to me there's no point having a family

0:08 business if there's no one else in the family in it.

0:10 Do you want to join me or not?

0:12 And I was sort of sitting on the fence,

0:13 and he made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

0:15 It became the defining decision of his career,

0:17 not because it was obvious, but because he saw it as a risk.

0:21 He had already set himself on a different

0:23 path and worried about living up to his father,

0:26 knowing that if it went wrong, it could mean leaving the business altogether.

0:30 It was a good decision, but at the time,

0:32 it wasn't an easy decision, because I had anxieties around it.

0:35 I remember someone saying, you know, it's better to paddle your own canoe,

0:39 even if your father has a ship.

0:40 What Reed learned from that decision— and from the many mistakes,

0:44 reinventions and bets that followed— became a simple rule.

0:48 The worst decision would be to stop trying things.

0:50 That outlook would guide him in the boardroom and beyond— even on a mountain,

0:54 where a near-death experience reminded him to live more purposefully.

0:58 It changed me as a person.

0:59 It changed the way I think,

1:00 and it changed my priorities, and I'm grateful for that.

1:04 These are James Reed’s Executive Decisions.

1:12 Your story is a multi-generational one, and it would be remiss of me not

1:17 to start off by talking about your father as well,

1:20 Sir, Alec Reed, who passed recently and was such an enormous influence to you.

1:25 How big an influence was your father, is your father still, in your career?

1:30 Well, firstly, Steve, thank you for inviting me to talk to you.

1:33 My father was a huge influence and continues to be in my career.

1:37 I mean, he's a wonderful entrepreneur, a wonderful man,

1:41 a great philanthropist, and above all, inspiring.

1:45 So, he inspired me as a kid and continues to do so now in my adult life.

1:50 So, I'm very grateful.

1:52 I feel very lucky, both to have known him,

1:53 but particularly to have been able to call him Dad.

1:55 I mean, he was a special man.

1:57 He died recently, as you say, he's left a huge hole.

2:01 He started Reed in 1960 I think, in Hounslow,

2:07 with a £75 pound pot of money to build his business.

2:11 Do you know really, what galvanized him, what made him do that, rather than

2:15 following into someone else's company, for instance?

2:17 Yeah, I do.

2:19 He was very frustrated that he couldn't

2:22 put his ideas into practice at Gillette's, where he worked before,

2:26 and they were kind enough to give him awards for his ideas,

2:30 but he was a sort of ideas machine.

2:32 He had a genius for ideas, and he was very frustrated,

2:35 he just wanted to do his own thing and be self-employed.

2:37 I remember him saying, "all I wanted was to be self-employed.

2:40 If I could earn as much money as I did at Gillette,

2:43 I'd have been happy with that." So, he set up on his own,

2:46 and my granny used to help him do the books,

2:48 and he worked on his own for a year in Hounslow.

2:51 But what's interesting, he told me more recently,

2:54 that he made a profit from the first week.

2:56 He said he didn't need any money to start the company.

2:58 I mean, you mentioned £75 pounds, which is not much,

3:01 but he said that the business took off from the first week.

3:05 And he said he had two ideas that made that happen.

3:07 The most important was he charged more than everyone else,

3:10 which is quite an interesting entry strategy for a business.

3:13 And he realized that he could do that because there was such demand for staff.

3:18 And there was such demand for staff because Heathrow Airport was being expanded,

3:22 and just by his good fortune he was born in Hounslow,

3:25 a borough of London, West London, best known now for Heathrow Airport,

3:29 which is right in the middle of it.

3:31 Your grandfather has some fame as well.

3:34 Am I right in saying that your grandfather during

3:37 the Second World War was part of the Ministry of Information,

3:40 and actually was part of the team which came up

3:43 with perhaps one of the most famous phrases of all time,

3:46 which was, keep calm and carry on.

3:48 Yeah, that's right, my grandfather, Leonard,

3:51 he was a graphic artist and he worked in the Ministry of Information,

3:56 and was responsible with the team there for producing propaganda posters.

4:00 And that was the poster Keep Calm and Carry On, which

4:03 was going to be put up had the Germans landed and invaded.

4:05 And apparently this was a phrase he used

4:07 to sort of use around the house during the Blitz,

4:11 and then it ended up on the poster.

4:13 And so yeah, we come,

4:15 well I feel fortunate I come from a family of artists and entrepreneurs.

4:19 My dad's always complaining, there are too many artists,

4:21 not enough entrepreneurs, Steve, but I think they have something in common.

4:26 Entrepreneurs and artists, they never retire, they just love what they do,

4:29 and they keep going and I feel blessed to have that.

4:32 So, you found inspiration from day one, from your family around you as well.

4:38 Did you think you were always going to move into the family business?

4:42 Or, I know you were at various places beforehand.

4:44 It wasn't a fait accompli that you'd

4:46 necessarily carry on in the family business?

4:48 No, it wasn't.

4:49 I suppose reflecting back now, I was worried about following in such big shoes.

4:54 I mean, he was very successful, he was well loved in the business,

4:59 I thought, well, you know, I don't want to mess that up.

5:02 So it was important to me to sort of learn and do

5:05 my own thing and get pay rises and promotions elsewhere under my own banner.

5:10 And I suppose I was very lucky because

5:13 I was always interested in working for entrepreneurs,

5:15 maybe it was something about growing up in an entrepreneurial family.

5:19 What was the guiding mission for you in your early part of your career,

5:22 did you always know though,

5:24 that by the late 90s you would probably go into the family company?

5:28 Or actually, did you think about going on other routes first?

5:31 I suppose I thought in my 20s,

5:33 I thought this is a great opportunity, being young,

5:35 to try stuff and find out what I really like doing

5:38 and what I enjoyed and maybe even might be good at.

5:42 And I think it's an opportunity for young people to do that, because, you know,

5:46 before you get too tied down with sort of mortgages and families and things,

5:50 you have a go at stuff, try things.

5:52 So that was a big part of my plan.

5:55 And I suppose as I got closer to 30, I started having children,

6:02 that was when I began to think more seriously about joining the family business,

6:06 because my father said to me, basically, you know,

6:08 "there's no point having a family business if there's no

6:10 one else in the family in it." He'd turn 60,

6:12 "do you want to join me or not?" And I was sort of sitting on the fence,

6:16 and he made me an offer I couldn't refuse, as they say.

6:20 Didn't he actually turn around to you saying something along the lines of, look,

6:24 "the job is going to be advertised

6:27 in The Sunday Times appointment section next week.

6:30 Do you want to apply or not?" Yeah, that's exactly what he said, Steve.

6:34 And that got me off the fence, and I'm very glad it did.

6:38 He had to give me a shove, and it got me off the fence,

6:41 and I joined him, this was in the spring of 1994.

6:44 And, yeah, you like, talk about decisions,

6:46 I look back on that and think that was a really good decision.

6:49 Was that the best decision you've ever made?

6:51 Yeah, well, probably yeah, looking back, because I wasn't sure at the time,

6:55 whether it was a good decision or not.

6:56 So, it was a hard decision?

6:57 It was a hard decision because there was quite a lot to weigh up.

7:01 He often, the company was coming out of a recession, it was growing,

7:05 there were actually three different jobs he asked me to consider.

7:08 And the job I took was an Operations Director job, so it was a difficult job,

7:14 and I took that job because I wanted to find out whether I could do it or not.

7:19 And so, I took a bit of a risk, because if I couldn't do it,

7:22 I knew that then the next, rest of my career wasn't here, sort of thing.

7:25 So it wasn't obvious that you would ultimately fill

7:28 the shoes of your father and become the CEO of Reed.

7:31 No, definitely not, no.

7:32 I mean, there was a very capable managing

7:34 director there at the time who I worked for.

7:36 So, you know, no, it wasn't obvious, and I needed to earn my spurs, so to speak.

7:42 You know, the company was, and continues to be,

7:44 a very competitive business, working in a very competitive market.

7:47 Despite the fact your father started

7:48 the business model by charging more than others.

7:50 Yeah, well, that just shows.

7:51 Which you couldn't do now.

7:52 Well, I wouldn't advise it, but maybe in some sectors.

7:55 I wouldn't want to do it in ours.

7:57 It was a good decision, but at the time,

7:59 it wasn't an easy decision, because I had anxieties around it.

8:03 And, you know, I was enjoying my work at the BBC.

8:08 I remember someone saying, you know, it's better to paddle your own canoe,

8:11 even if your father has a ship.

8:13 And there's some truth in that.

8:15 You said when you took over,

8:17 you'd be very worried about how you would cope during harder times.

8:21 Can you think of any examples where you've made the wrong decision,

8:24 or you've made a bad decision for the business and how that has affected you,

8:29 and then how you reacted thereafter?

8:32 I don't know if they were bad decisions, I mean,

8:33 sometimes you make a decision with the best information,

8:36 and then it doesn't work out.

8:38 So, I'm thinking particularly of investments that we've made where we've tried

8:45 to start a new venture or open an office in a new market.

8:48 And I'm thinking of quite a few places

8:50 that we used to have offices in we don't anymore,

8:53 or lines of business that we started that we didn't succeed at.

8:58 But I think that's a vital part of being an entrepreneur.

9:01 You have to keep trying things,

9:02 and the worst decision would be to stop trying things.

9:05 So, we've made lots of mistakes.

9:07 Do I think of them as bad decisions?

9:10 No, not really.

9:11 I mean, I think, I was thinking the other day, you know, what is a life?

9:16 A life's a lot of different things,

9:18 but in a way, it's an accumulation of decisions.

9:21 You decide to do one thing then the next,

9:24 and our business has had a good life, so far.

9:27 We've made bad decisions, sure,

9:28 but the good thing about making a decision is you can always make another one,

9:32 and that's what you should do.

9:34 I think the worst thing is sort of being

9:36 frozen in the headlights and not making a decision.

9:39 Yeah, change is good.

9:40 Change is always going to happen.

9:41 Change is going to happen around you,

9:43 but it's a question of how you adapt as a business as well,

9:45 and how you adapt as a person.

9:46 Well, it might be bad, I mean, but change is inevitable.

9:49 I mean, nothing stands still, and so you've got to try and go with it.

9:53 And if the change looks bad, you know,

9:55 are there any opportunities it throws up, you know?

9:58 In a recession, actually, it's a great time to hire talented people.

10:02 There are lots of great people available if you go looking, in a recession.

10:05 It's a great time to acquire assets that may be cheaper than usual.

10:09 So, there's always something you can do, whatever the environment,

10:13 that would help carry your business forward, I think.

10:20 I want to just explore the relationship between you and your father

10:25 and that handover a little bit more, if I may as well.

10:28 You couldn't have had a different start from your father.

10:31 Your father was 16 and left school, and yet that didn't stop him having

10:34 multiple professorial-ships and doctorates, later on in life.

10:39 He was a late developer, you'd say.

10:40 But you had the most extraordinarily privileged education: St Paul's,

10:45 Christ Church Oxford, MBA Harvard Business School as well.

10:48 It couldn't have been more different from your father.

10:51 You know what, yeah, that's very interesting, and it's absolutely true.

10:54 So, he left school at 16,

10:56 and his mother insisted he went to night school to learn some,

11:00 get some qualifications.

11:01 Eventually, after multiple attempts, he became qualified as an accountant,

11:05 and subsequently got awarded three doctorates,

11:07 and he was a professor three times, and he did really well in that respect,

11:14 but he was always very keen that we should get a good education.

11:18 I mean, he earned his own money, and he came from a very humble background,

11:23 but he was really keen to invest that in us,

11:26 me and my siblings, in a good education.

11:28 So, I was the first member of my family to go to university, for instance,

11:32 but I remember him telling me when I was about eight,

11:34 no, you're going, you should go to Oxford.

11:36 And it was sort of in my head,

11:37 he sort of planted it as a goal as a kid, he'd never been to Oxford.

11:42 I barely knew where it was.

11:44 He sort of planted this...

11:46 That's interesting.

11:46 And then I was thinking, yeah, I better go to Oxford then.

11:48 So, I sort of made that a sort of goal, and I did.

11:51 And then I remember him saying, well,

11:52 you should probably go to business school, the best one's Harvard.

11:55 He was very good at sort of planting these, sort

11:58 of ideas and sort of encouraging me in that way.

12:02 And I enjoyed learning and I still do.

12:05 I'm a curious person, as was he.

12:08 So, I enjoyed the experience of learning, studying, and I thought, well,

12:12 I want to get as knowledgeable as I can so I can go out and use this education.

12:17 I never thought of education as something

12:19 that finished when you got your degree.

12:21 The whole point of it was to go and apply it in the world, I thought.

12:25 But you and I grew up, you're a little bit older than me,

12:28 but not much, we grew up in a time when, actually,

12:30 if you were hard, working, moderately smart, and I say moderately in my case,

12:35 a lot smarter in your case, you could get a job.

12:37 It wasn't hard to get a job.

12:38 And if you worked really hard, you could get a good career as well.

12:42 Did we need that kind of level of education when you

12:45 and I were hitting the workforce in the 80s and 90s?

12:49 Well, certainly, I think it's harder to get a job now.

12:51 I mean, there were periods in the 80s Now,

12:53 very different I appreciate that, James.

12:54 There were periods in the 80s when it was very hard to get a job.

12:56 You know, the unemployment was very high early in the 80s,

12:59 and there were periods in the 90s,

13:01 it's easy to forget now, you know, it can change quite quickly.

13:04 You know, three years ago, it was very easy to get a job, and now it's not so...

13:08 But, specifically when we were growing up,

13:09 though, there were jobs galore, weren't there James?

13:12 There were lots of jobs.

13:13 Yeah and I think one of the things that was

13:15 different then is there were lots of opportunities for young people,

13:18 teenagers, to go and work part time,

13:19 do sort of holiday jobs, working in supermarkets,

13:22 and I remember working in ice cream van

13:25 at Thorpe Park and doing all sorts of funny jobs,

13:29 which was really quite formative actually,

13:31 I look back on that and think actually I learned quite a lot about people.

13:34 Did you learn a lot out of your first job,

13:35 James, which I think I know what it was.

13:37 I think I'm right in saying I know what your first job was.

13:40 My first job, well, I'll tell you what it was,

13:44 just in case, was working in a cemetery leveling graves in Old Windsor.

13:48 You know, I learned from that job that I didn't want

13:51 to do that for the rest of my life, I tell you,

13:53 because it was cold, it was hard, it was cold,

13:56 but it was quite well paid, £2.50 an hour at the time, which was quite good.

14:00 And it was tough, it was a tough job,

14:02 but I'm glad I did it, I'm glad I did it, I remember it fondly.

14:07 How do you feel about the accusation, or indeed, the comment that actually,

14:12 nepotism was rife for many people and for you as well,

14:15 that was how you got your job,

14:17 that's how you got your big break as well, and the importance of it.

14:21 Well, I always say guilty as charged.

14:23 I can't see it any other way.

14:26 Yeah, it is nepotism, but I think it's interesting how you approach that.

14:30 I remember feeling that as a pressure, not as a gift.

14:34 I remember thinking, I've got to work harder than everyone else,

14:37 because they're going to be looking,

14:39 they're going to think, oh, that's Alec Reed’s son, what's he doing?

14:42 Yeah.

14:42 So, I've got to make sure, I felt,

14:45 that I had to be as hard working as the hardest working person,

14:50 and I really wanted to do well.

14:52 So, it's a, I didn't see it as a sort of privilege, you know,

14:56 I just get the director's parking slot and all that crap, at all.

15:01 I felt it as almost a responsibility.

15:05 And a pressure.

15:06 A pressure, yeah.

15:06 Because of your very close relationship with your father and your family,

15:10 you just didn't want to let them down.

15:11 Not at all, no, I wanted to succeed.

15:15 And even now, you know,

15:16 I suppose it's funny you're asking this question of me now,

15:18 you know, I'm 62 years old, I've been CEO for 29 years.

15:22 People still ask me and yeah.

15:25 It's interesting.

15:25 I think it's fascinating.

15:26 I suppose it's true of any family business, isn't it?

15:28 I mean, if you're going to carry on with a multi,

15:30 what I call a multi-generational effort,

15:32 as a family, as an entrepreneurial family,

15:33 there are going to be, there's going to be a founder at some stage,

15:37 but then they're going to be lots

15:38 of subsequent lots of subsequent generations hopefully.

15:39 But, I mean, I think it was the Malcolm Gladwell book talking about

15:43 how we underestimate just how much privilege successful people have had in life.

15:46 And I remember my first job in the city of London,

15:49 couple of miles up the road when I had my interview in Fenchurch Street.

15:52 The reason I got that interview is because I went to a school

15:56 that was a rival school of my first boss, as it turned out,

15:59 in the city as well, and I got in probably because he knew my school,

16:02 and my sister had been at the same school as him.

16:05 So I think we all underestimate how much privilege,

16:07 whether it's coming from a stable middle class background,

16:10 having a good education, whatever it may be,

16:12 we underestimate the role of privilege

16:14 in getting our break and our career ladder.

16:17 I see my privilege, in that sense, slightly different.

16:20 I mean, you mentioned I went to Oxford, Harvard Business School,

16:23 but I learned more from my dad than I did in either of those places.

16:26 But I feel the same.

16:27 And I learned from him, just sitting at the kitchen table,

16:29 going out with him, visiting offices with him.

16:31 And, you know, I grew up in a business family.

16:35 Yeah.

16:35 And I think that does give you an advantage

16:37 if you want to go into business, you know,

16:40 if both my parents had been teachers or police officers,

16:43 I wouldn't have had the same input,

16:45 I'd have probably become a teacher or a police officer.

16:47 Or ended up in media eventually, you never know,

16:49 you could have been interviewing me here James, the other way round.

16:51 Or something like that, but it's sort of, it's interesting,

16:53 because you sort of imbue this stuff.

16:55 And I'll tell you, I felt after going to Oxford,

16:58 I enjoyed my time, I had to unlearn quite a lot.

17:01 I mean, they make you think you're marvelous at Oxford, and you're not.

17:04 You're just a kid at 21 and you've got to go on with your life,

17:08 and you've got to work hard.

17:09 There is a problem with too much education.

17:11 I'll probably get myself into a lot of trouble for this.

17:15 CNBC hires fantastic young people.

17:17 They are amazing interns and amazing first starters,

17:21 and they've had brilliant media education

17:24 at all kinds of brilliant organizations.

17:27 I personally think those individuals would be brilliant,

17:29 regardless of that education,

17:31 but it's because they've spent all that extra money on their BA

17:34 and their post-grad qualification that they've got in the door at CNBC,

17:38 where actually, as individuals, I think they are just as good,

17:40 and we could have trained them up anyway,

17:43 regardless of three four years in extra education.

17:46 Well, more and more people are asking themselves that question,

17:48 thinking, do I need to go to university,

17:50 or should I just go and learn a trade or an apprenticeship?

17:53 But we have a similar view on this one, don't we?

17:55 Well, my view is, yeah, I think we do, Steve.

17:58 My view is that too many people are going to do

18:01 degrees at universities that don't help carry them forward afterwards,

18:05 and end up with a lot of debt having spent three or four

18:08 years doing something that won't help them

18:11 progress in ways that they might desire.

18:13 As CEO of Reed, what are the biggest, most pivotal decisions that you've made?

18:19 I suppose one decision that changed the nature

18:21 of our business was taking it private.

18:23 It was a quoted company.

18:24 Yeah, that was in 2003?

18:25 Yeah, it was a quoted company.

18:27 My father listed the company in 1972 and we took it private in 2003.

18:31 So, I'm glad we did that, because it

18:35 didn't really suit our business model to be quoted,

18:38 because we weren't going to the market for funds, we weren't doing acquisitions,

18:42 and so it wasn't a sort of pressing benefit to us and there were costs involved.

18:47 So, we left that club, at that time.

18:50 And I guess, you know,

18:52 it's good in the way our successes and failures are to a degree, private.

18:56 How different was running the company

18:58 as a private company compared with a public company?

19:00 Well, I spent, I mean, I was the CEO then and, you know, before we went private,

19:06 I would have spent more time doing presentations to analysts in the city.

19:10 I don't do that at all now, and answering questions.

19:14 But it hasn't inhibited the growth of the company?

19:16 I mean, the question I got asked most when I was the CEO of a public company,

19:21 your father said that going public was his greatest mistake,

19:23 what have you got to say about that.

19:26 So eventually we answered that question by going private.

19:30 I presume your father just agreed with you, yeah let's get it off the market.

19:32 Oh, yeah, he was quite supportive.

19:34 Yeah.

19:34 I suppose that was a decision he made at the time for good reason at the time.

19:38 I think there was a, there was a picture of him in The Guardian

19:42 that said "Alec Reed's business goes private

19:44 after 31 uneventful years on the stock exchange",

19:46 but he would have said, and he would have been right,

19:49 the people who bought shares in the company got a good return on it.

19:51 And he did too.

19:52 I was going to say, has it been a profitable decision?

19:54 Well, I don't know what the business is worth now, but I have no regrets.

20:00 Do you not?

20:00 No, I don't, well, it's not quoted, so there's not a daily price.

20:03 No, but I mean.

20:04 I mean, I've got an idea.

20:04 Owners of businesses tend to know what their company's worth.

20:08 You could look at the accounts and multiply the profits.

20:10 I mean, it's not for sale.

20:11 No.

20:12 So, yeah, I don't really.

20:13 I know that it's a good business,

20:15 and I know that, you know it's valuable and needs to be looked after.

20:19 I wouldn't be able to put a price tag on it.

20:21 You were asked a while back by, I think it was a Harvard professor,

20:26 what is the defining moment of your career,

20:28 and I have the quote saying you were stumped.

20:30 It was very clear when you sat back and thought about it,

20:33 what the big epiphany was in your life,

20:35 and it came actually quite later on, rather

20:37 than in your early part of your career?

20:39 Yeah, I think it's a great question.

20:41 I mean, for anybody,

20:42 what is the defining moment of your career so far, I think he said.

20:45 And it did take, I mean, I was stumped,

20:47 because lots of things were sort of whirring in my mind.

20:50 But then it came back to this one thing,

20:53 which was nowhere near the office and was a moment

20:57 on a mountain called the Matterhorn in the Alps, when I fell and nearly died.

21:04 Twice.

21:04 Twice, yeah.

21:05 So, you've worked out, I'm not a very good mountaineer.

21:08 No, no, I disagree.

21:09 You were just pretty unlucky with the weather that day, I think.

21:11 Well, the weather was bad and, and, yeah.

21:14 But just go into a bit of detail, James.

21:16 You were climbing with some great mountain Alpine experts and your son as well.

21:20 Yeah.

21:20 So, there were four of us.

21:22 So, I went with an Alpinist called Stefan Gatt,

21:26 who's a friend and an amazing mountaineer.

21:28 His claim to fame was he climbed Everest a few years ago with no oxygen,

21:34 and then snowboarded down from the top,

21:36 and was the first person in the world to do such a thing.

21:39 So, this kind of caught my attention,

21:41 and he was giving a talk about this and got big standing ovation,

21:45 and I sort of sidled up to him at the end, and said,

21:48 "Any chance you'd take someone like me up Mont Blanc?" He said,

21:51 "Yeah, sure." And so, we did this little trip up Mont Blanc,

21:54 then after that, did many other trips in the Alps.

21:56 So, about a decade later, we went off to climb the Matterhorn.

21:59 I was 50 at the time.

22:00 So this is 2013.

22:02 2013 yeah, I was 50.

22:03 My son, Harry, was 18.

22:05 It was a sort of a Father-Son bonding trip.

22:07 Not going to the football or something.

22:10 We do that too, but this seemed like an exciting thing to do,

22:13 climb the Matterhorn.

22:13 And we got there in September, and it snowed,

22:16 and the mountain was covered in snow.

22:18 I should have smelled a rat when I didn't see anyone else on it.

22:23 But we headed up, and I was doing a traverse, crossing a snow slope,

22:27 and the new snow that had fallen was on sort

22:30 of hardened old ice that had been there all summer,

22:34 and I slipped, and I started sliding, pulling Stefan down with me.

22:38 So, you were roped together, you were pulling you down.

22:41 I was pulling him.

22:41 Yeah, he was coming down with and he said,

22:43 "Put your crampons in." These are the big

22:45 sort of claws that you put on your boots.

22:47 And the crampons, I tried to put my boots in, it didn't stick.

22:50 I carried on, and then I remembered I had an ice axe, and it was on my chest,

22:55 and I put the ice axe with all my weight into the snow, and it stopped,

22:59 and I was about a meter from oblivion, as was Stefan,

23:03 and I remember still looking at him as I'm

23:07 looking at you now about that far apart,

23:09 thinking just down there to our right was death.

23:12 And this moment stayed with me ever since,

23:15 and it got me thinking a lot, but then I fell again.

23:19 I was going to say, so there were two incidents on one mountain,

23:21 both of which you could have died on.

23:23 So, a lot of normal right-thinking people think,

23:25 what the hell were you doing carrying on, which is what we did.

23:28 I sort of bullheadedly wanted to get

23:30 to the top of the Matterhorn, so we carried on.

23:33 And then we didn't get to the top because the weather got worse and worse,

23:37 there was icy winds, and we could see the top, but we decided to head back.

23:41 And it was later, after the next morning, on the way down, we are abseiling,

23:45 or I was AB sailing, and I was the end of a long rope,

23:49 went off at an angle to join Stefan slipped,

23:52 and then I found myself at the end of what's called a pendulum fall.

23:56 So, if you put 100 kilos at the end of a long rope and swing it,

23:59 it swings and I ended up dangling off the Matterhorn on this occasion.

24:03 And I'd gone around the corner, and I remember Stefan shouting,

24:07 "Are you alright?" And I thought, well, I'm still alive.

24:09 So, I said, "Yeah, I'm all right." He said, "Are you sure?" I said,

24:12 "Yes, but I've broken my leg." And he said, "How do you know,

24:15 you've broken your leg?" And I said,

24:17 "because my foot's pointing in the wrong direction." So,

24:20 I was sort of dangling there high up on the Matterhorn.

24:23 And so, he got a rope to me, pulled me to a ledge, and called the air ambulance,

24:28 and this wonderful crew from Valle d'Aosta in Italy came

24:30 up and took me off the mountain, and saved my life.

24:34 Am I right in thinking they wouldn't let your son watch one of these.

24:36 One of the other climbers just turned your son's head away?

24:38 Yeah, no, the first fall when we nearly went off the slope,

24:42 he turned Harry's face away so he wouldn't see us fall off, it was that close.

24:48 So, but why was this my defining moment?

24:51 Well, it was some, I came back and I was smashed up,

24:54 and I was in hospital for a bit,

24:56 then in a wheelchair, and it gave me lots of time to think.

24:59 And I was thinking, I suppose, having turned 50,

25:01 very much about the second half of my life,

25:03 and I decided I really wanted to live it purposefully,

25:06 and I wanted our business to make as big an impact as it could.

25:10 And that's when we settled,

25:12 subsequently on improving lives through work as our purpose.

25:15 And then I've subsequently written a book about values-led,

25:19 purpose-driven businesses called, as you kindly mentioned, Karma Capitalism.

25:23 And I'm trying to encourage other companies, philanthropy companies like us,

25:27 where 10% or more of the shares are owned by a charity,

25:30 because that really helps give them a superpower, I would say.

25:33 The fragility of life, forget about business,

25:36 forget about all the successes you've had and your father had,

25:40 and the successes you want to pass on to the rest of your family,

25:43 the fragility of life flashed before you at that moment

25:46 and changed who you are as a person.

25:49 Yeah, I think it did.

25:51 I felt very lucky to be alive, and I still do, because it was very close,

25:59 and I suppose I had two near death experiences within 24 hours,

26:03 and that, I guess, woke me up.

26:05 I call it my wake-up fall, and it really was.

26:08 And so, I feel now, I had lunch with Stefan Gatt,

26:13 my Alpinist friend, and I said to him, he looked quite surprised...

26:16 I hope you paid.

26:17 I did pay.

26:18 I said to him, he looked quite surprised.

26:20 I said, you know, looking back and I'm quite glad that happened now,

26:23 he looked a bit amazed.

26:24 But it did, it changed me as a person, it changed the way I think,

26:29 and it changed my priorities, and I'm grateful for that.

26:33 And your wife banned you from mountain climbing, I presume.

26:35 Yeah, no, I'm not allowed to go Mountain Climbing.

26:37 No, no, she didn't ban me, that's unfair on Nicola.

26:39 I promised her I wouldn't do it again.

26:41 Poor Nicola was sort of pushing me around in a wheelchair,

26:44 and she was incredibly kind to me.

26:46 And we do have six children, so pretty irresponsible thing to do.

26:54 Tell me a little bit about the book Karma Capitalism,

26:57 and you came on Squawk Box recently to talk about it as well.

27:01 The concept is quite difficult for a lot of, I think,

27:04 corporate leaders watching, to turn their companies,

27:07 which are primarily for the for the benefit

27:10 of shareholders and in some cases for broader stakeholders,

27:13 but to turn that into a philanthropic venture,

27:16 I'd imagine that's quite a jump for many companies.

27:19 I can't see how they can make the decision

27:22 to do so without enormous buy-in from shareholders and others.

27:26 Yeah, I accept that.

27:28 So just to be clear, I mean,

27:30 a PhilCo by definition, and it's defined in the book,

27:34 is a company where at least 10% of the shares are owned by a charitable family.

27:38 And Reed is what, 18% at the moment?

27:39 Yeah, we're 18% at the moment,

27:41 but I know in my father's legacy it's going to go above 20%.

27:46 So, Reed is, let's say, 20% owned by The Reed Foundation Charitable Trust.

27:50 So, we say we work one day a week for charity,

27:55 and that's highly motivational for people in the business,

27:58 and it's also appealing to our customers.

28:00 So, what defines us as a PhilCo is that shareholding,

28:03 and I want to stress this because,

28:05 it doesn't change the way we do business, it changes what we are.

28:09 It changes the DNA of the business.

28:11 It's about being a different type of business,

28:13 rather than doing business differently.

28:14 And that change in the DNA of the business, we discovered by accident.

28:19 It gives it a sort of superpower,

28:21 because the people, people are much more committed to it.

28:23 I mean, it's a really good business model.

28:25 And my father, I mean, he's quoted in the book, saying, you know,

28:29 I gave away 18% of the business,

28:31 I'm glad I did that, because it's made the business more successful.

28:33 You know, it's like an investment if you just look at it commercially.

28:37 But also, it's enriched his life and mine, usually through all the other things

28:41 we've done with Big Give and philanthropically.

28:44 But it does mean that someone has to be generous,

28:47 yeah, you know, whether it's the founding entrepreneur or business family,

28:52 you know they could issue more shares,

28:53 or they could give some shares away to a charity.

28:56 But interestingly now,

28:57 there are a lot of families who are facing challenges around inheritance tax,

29:01 in the UK in particular,

29:03 where if you have to pay 20% inheritance tax on business assets,

29:07 a lot of families are thinking, well,

29:09 we might have to sell our business to do that.

29:11 Well, no, they don't.

29:13 They could give those shares to the charity of their own

29:16 founding and become a PhilCo and do really well.

29:18 So, you know, I want to give some hope to those sort of businesses,

29:22 who are under a lot of pressure that you dont have to...

29:25 Are you finding other companies are looking at the model seriously?

29:28 Yeah, I've had lots of people say I really like this, or people are saying,

29:31 I'm setting up a new business, I'm going to set it up as a Phil Co.

29:35 People who have come out of the woodwork and say,

29:37 well, actually, our company is a PhilCo.

29:39 I never really realized, you know,

29:40 we've got a big Charitable Foundation stake because

29:42 someone in a legacy gave their shares to charity,

29:45 and that's helped us, and we want to make more of it.

29:50 So, I think we're trying to build

29:52 a movement of PhilCo's that support each other.

29:54 And there are great businesses around the world.

29:58 IKEA is a PhilCo, Lego is a PhilCo, Carlsberg, Novo Nordisk, Maersk, Rolex.

30:04 These are brilliant businesses.

30:06 They're market leading businesses.

30:08 They make more money and last longer than regular businesses.

30:10 But they started off as family business every single one of those.

30:15 Well, all businesses have someone starting them,

30:17 don't they, at some point, and I suppose that...

30:19 But they've retained the very strong family connections.

30:22 Yeah, and that's what's interesting, you see.

30:23 If you're an entrepreneur who started a business and you want a legacy,

30:27 this is the way to go.

30:28 Yeah.

30:28 I mean, Alec Reed has a fantastic legacy,

30:31 both through Big Give and the charities he started,

30:33 and the business that we're continuing,

30:35 and lots of entrepreneurs are interested in legacy and longevity.

30:38 You know that wonderful professor you mentioned from, Lauren Cohen from Harvard,

30:42 he asked another good question, he said,

30:43 you know if I mentioned the words Carnegie and Mellon,

30:45 the names Carnegie, what do you think of?

30:48 I think of big US philanthropists.

30:50 Yeah, they were "Robber barons" before they became US philanthropists.

30:53 They were "Robber barons".

30:54 I'm just half-way through the book about the "Robber barons" as well.

30:57 And that's what I think.

30:58 But bigger European corporates starting from scratch who

31:02 aren't already PhilCo’s unlike the likes you mentioned,

31:05 you know, Lego, IKEA, Maersk, Carlsberg,

31:07 they're not going to change their corporate structure, are they?

31:11 Well, I don't know, because there's a lot

31:14 of pressure on companies to take different routes.

31:17 You know, people are becoming more and more

31:21 sort of disillusioned with business, and more,

31:24 and young people especially are sort of feel to me,

31:27 quite alienated from society and business and commerce in ways that is not good.

31:34 So, I think this is a way for companies

31:37 that take a long view to reconnect with people actually,

31:40 and to participate in their communities in a new way

31:42 that will be better for their long-term health as a business,

31:45 and better for the long-term health of their society.

31:48 What are the big decisions you've got left

31:50 in your career that you really want to get right?

31:52 So, we talked about AI,

31:54 we've got a new service offering called Reed AI, which is in beta format.

32:00 It has the potential, I think, to be really fantastic,

32:03 because it will change the way people look for work.

32:06 Because when someone signs up with Reed AI, they search,

32:09 they don't have to apply for jobs,

32:12 but they surface in the searches that other people make.

32:16 So, you know, and we're going to be paying

32:19 a bonus to people who get jobs through Reed AI, which will be a first, Steve.

32:23 You'll pay them a bonus?

32:24 Yeah, you'll get £300 quid when you get a job

32:27 to buy a new suit or tie or shirt or whatever, and that will be a new thing,

32:31 which is good for people and will be very interesting,

32:34 I think, because, from the employer's point of view,

32:37 you know, they can create their job descriptions,

32:39 and then the AI will basically do the job

32:42 that Alec Reed did in Hounslow in 1960, which will be to surface good candidates

32:47 for that particular job description, and say,

32:50 "Would you like to see any of these people?"

32:52 And then that that client can say, "Yes,

32:54 I'd like to see these three." Would then go and ask them,

32:56 "Would you like an interview?" So,

32:57 it takes a lot of the pain and disappointment out of recruitment, actually.

33:00 So here I'm seeing something that has the potential

33:03 to really improve the way a market works,

33:06 using AI with, you know, if it's well implemented.

33:10 And what's not to say that could be mirrored in lots of other markets too.

33:14 So, you know, I'm not AI doom and gloom,

33:17 but I do see it's going to take some jobs.

33:20 It might well create some new ones.

33:21 What do you do as a CEO to find balance away from the working life?

33:27 Yeah, I'm not sure my wife would say I was balanced.

33:32 You're not the first person on this podcast to say that.

33:34 I can't claim to be a moderate, really.

33:37 You know that quote "everything in moderation,

33:39 including moderation", always makes me laugh.

33:42 So, I'm probably a bit of an extremist by nature,

33:45 because I throw myself into things and I really want to see them through.

33:50 But I like getting outdoors, and I love horses,

33:54 and I've got a black and white cob that I drive

33:56 around the country lanes of Wiltshire with a horse and cart.

33:59 I just love doing that, and that makes me very happy,

34:02 and it's totally absorbing and relaxing.

34:04 And I ride horses through the woods as well.

34:07 So, horses are my sort of therapists, you know,

34:11 I just find being with horses very relaxing, you know.

34:15 A horse can hear your heartbeat from 10 feet away,

34:18 so it knows exactly what mood you're in.

34:21 Are you a workaholic?

34:22 Well, I'm an addictive person.

34:25 Do you think a lot of CEOs are addicted people?

34:29 Yeah, it's a characteristic I see.

34:30 I mean, I've obviously interviewed a lot of people myself through my podcast,

34:34 so a lot of entrepreneurial people,

34:37 I think we're called neuro-diverse these days.

34:41 I don't know if addictive is one of those, but it possibly is.

34:47 It's, yeah, I think I have an addictive nature,

34:50 and I've learned as I've got older,

34:52 to try and channel that into more constructive activities,

34:55 other than going to the pub and having too much to drink.

34:58 And how successful have you been at channeling

35:01 it into the equine life and the outdoors?

35:04 Well, I don't drink anymore, those days are behind me.

35:07 And so, I think as I've got older, I've got better at doing that.

35:11 But I feel very lucky because I love my job, and, you know,

35:14 our brand message is "Love Mondays" and I think it's

35:17 possible for everyone to find the job they really love.

35:19 But James, you even sing on the adverts about loving Mondays, don't you?

35:22 Yeah, I do.

35:22 I mean, I just, I just feel lucky to love my work.

35:25 I love work.

35:26 I don't want to retire.

35:27 I want to carry on, and I feel lucky that I feel like that.

35:30 James, it's just been a real privilege,

35:32 listening to your enthusiasm and your amazing ethos,

35:34 and you're trying to get people to think about Karma Capitalism and PhilCo,

35:38 so thank you very much indeed for sharing your professional journey with us.

35:43 It's been a real pleasure.

35:44 Well, thank you, Steve, for giving me the opportunity,

35:46 and I hope people have a look at Karma Capitalism,

35:48 especially your important business audience.

35:50 Thank you very much.

35:51 Thank you very much indeed.

35:52 Thank you.

35:54 Speaking to James Reed has been incredibly fascinating.

35:57 This wasn't a man who was the plucky outsider,

36:01 the man who came from incredibly humble beginnings.

36:04 Quite the opposite.

36:06 James Reed grew up with immense privilege,

36:09 a phenomenal education including Harvard and Oxford.

36:13 Afather who was one of the top British businessmen, Sir Alec Reed.

36:18 No, the challenge for James Reed has been following in those mighty footsteps,

36:24 how will you fill the boots of a very successful father

36:27 and take over the baton from him as CEO of Reed group.

36:32 He did so, and he did so very successfully.

36:36 What is fascinating as well is how that role evolved for him and how through

36:41 a life changing event he basically almost fell

36:44 off a mountain in the Alps and almost died.

36:48 It made him think very much about the fragility of life and about

36:52 what purpose he wanted and what he wanted for company as well.

36:57 And he’s developed that into a model,

37:00 perhaps that others can follow that isn’t just about Reed,

37:04 isn't just about Sir James Reed,

37:05 it’s about how other companies can find a charitable purpose.

37:09 Not only for their shareholders but for society as a whole.

37:13 Thank you for joining me on Executive Decisions.

37:15 I would love to hear your feedback,

37:17 drop your thoughts in the comments or a review,

37:20 and please hit that follow or subscribe button.

37:22 On the next episode of Executive Decisions,

37:25 I'll be speaking to the CEO of Euronext, Stephane Boujnah.

37:28 The defining force to make a decision as a leader

37:32 in a company or in any other situation, what is your appetite to be lonely?

37:38 I’m looking forward to it.

37:41 We’ll see you then.