Winning Through Suffering, Sobriety & Endurance | Ken Rideout

0:00 KEN RIDEOUT: I had tried the mediocre road, in life and it didn't pay very well.

0:04 Meaning it wasn't very fulfilling.

0:07 The only things that have been fulfilling to me as a person,

0:10 as a man, has had come with suffering and struggling.

0:14 ANDY GALPIN: The science and practice of enhancing

0:17 human performance for sport, play, and life.

0:21 Welcome to Perform.

0:23 I'm Dr.

0:24 Andy Galpin, I'm a professor and scientist and the executive

0:27 director of the Human Performance Center at Parker University.

0:29 Today, I'm speaking with Ken Rideout.

0:32 Ken is an author, elite endurance athlete, and a tremendous storyteller.

0:36 In this conversation,

0:37 you're going to learn a lot and probably a most be incredibly inspired.

0:41 Ken's journey from really tough circumstances

0:44 as a child to early career success, making millions of dollars,

0:48 then falling into a decade long battle with drug addiction,

0:51 and coming out of all that, breaking records in endurance sports and having

0:55 a successful life is as inspirational as anything I've ever been a part of.

0:59 I was lucky to get an early copy of his book.

1:02 I read the entire thing almost,

1:03 I saved the last couple of pages till today in one sitting.

1:07 Ken is different than anyone I've ever had on perform,

1:10 and so you're going to learn a lot of tactical stuff if you're into endurance,

1:13 racing, and running, but you're going to walk away entertained,

1:16 I guarantee you that, and also incredibly inspired.

1:19 The lessons he imparted are valuable to all of us,

1:23 regardless of whether you'll run a race in your life now or ever in the future,

1:27 I found it valuable.

1:28 I know you'll get a ton of this as well,

1:30 so please enjoy today's conversation with Ken Rideout.

1:33 Mr.

1:34 Ken Rideout, it is a huge pleasure to have you.

1:38 This is a very special episode for many reasons.

1:41 First, I've never had anyone even remotely close to you

1:44 on the show and I think within about three minutes,

1:47 anyone listening is going to understand exactly what I mean.

1:50 KEN RIDEOUT: Well, thank you for having me.

1:51 It's a huge honor to be on such a prominent show.

1:54 And like I said to you earlier, I'm sure this will be the least

1:58 technical conversation you've ever had on the podcast

2:01 because I'm going to disappoint everyone

2:03 with my lack of information about heart rate, all my training metrics.

2:07 But I can tell you perceived effort.

2:10 ANDY GALPIN: Well, you're going to give us a lot

2:13 of information and a lot of inspiration for sure.

2:15 I read your entire book except for the last five pages in one day.

2:21 KEN RIDEOUT: The best.

2:22 ANDY GALPIN: I intentionally did not read the last five pages.

2:24 I actually wanted to save it till after our conversation.

2:27 So I don't know how your story ends.

2:28 KEN RIDEOUT: Oh, my God,

2:29 I love the— I think the last five pages are the best like.

2:31 ANDY GALPIN: Of course.

2:32 KEN RIDEOUT: I sent that last chapter when I

2:34 was writing the book to my wife, a true story.

2:36 And I'm sitting in my office, she's sitting on the kitchen,

2:39 and I thought I heard her, like sniffling and sobbing.

2:41 And I come home and I'm like, yo, what's up?

2:43 Did you like it?

2:43 And she's like, Oh my God, I know how the story ends.

2:46 And I was still captivated.

2:48 And I was like, perfect.

2:49 And I told my editor and he was like, well, if they cry, they buy.

2:53 So you've obviously hit on something, so you're doing the right thing.

2:56 But I loved the last five pages, really.

2:58 To me, drives everything home.

3:00 There's so many lessons in that.

3:01 ANDY GALPIN: I teared up many times reading your book.

3:04 Like, very, very.

3:05 You and I have an insanely similar background we'll probably discuss later,

3:10 but— KEN RIDEOUT: In a lot of ways, I'm sorry to hear that.

3:13 ANDY GALPIN: No, no.

3:14 In many ways it's polar opposite, and in many it's very, very similar.

3:18 But I actually wanted to start today with my introduction to you.

3:22 And so I'm going to tell you this story,

3:24 and then I'm going to let you tell everyone else your side of the story.

3:27 So I remember actually probably sitting in this very

3:29 room a couple of years ago or so,

3:32 and our mutual friend who's the third body in this room here,

3:35 Rob, told me it came up somehow.

3:37 He's like, I this crazy friend.

3:39 And he goes, now picture everything I'm about to tell you in this, like,

3:42 thick Boston accent.

3:43 And I'm like, OK.

3:44 And he's like, I got this crazy friend.

3:46 He's running 150 mile race in Mongolia.

3:49 It's like 100 miles in, runs up next to some guy,

3:52 looks at him, just goes, you know, the funny thing is?

3:54 I never get tired.

3:56 And then bolts off and the guy falls

3:57 out and quits the race or something like that.

3:59 So first of all, did Rob lie to me about that story or is that actual?

4:03 KEN RIDEOUT: That's true.

4:04 I was racing in Mongolia.

4:06 There were two guys who were super competitive with me,

4:09 one guy, a Swiss mountaineer guy, Reinhold Hugo or Hugo Reinhold.

4:14 I forget how which one comes first, but just a superstar athlete.

4:18 And he was leading by about 12 minutes on a 50 mile stage.

4:21 And then there was David Daniel, who was like a Israeli soldier,

4:25 like just a real tough guy, little tiny guy, but just a savage.

4:28 And I just ran up next to David.

4:30 Daniel, you're supposed to have headphones,

4:32 but I had one headphone in that I had been squirreling

4:34 away with a charge because I didn't have a charger or anything,

4:37 and I was listening to music because I hadn't— you had

4:39 to have a phone with you in case you got— I mean,

4:41 there was no cell phone reception, but you had to have it for whatever reason.

4:45 And I was listening to music,

4:46 trying to get myself motivated on super low volume, and I ran up next to him.

4:51 I'm like, hey, David, you know something?

4:53 I never get tired.

4:54 And I feel fucking great today, like, let's do this.

4:58 And we're friendly.

4:59 And he didn't drop out.

5:00 But I looked back a few minutes later,

5:01 we were running through and we were running through fields like pastures,

5:05 like there was uneven footing.

5:06 It was so hard in hindsight.

5:08 And I looked back and he was walking and he'd been he's a competitor.

5:12 He came in second, I think overall in this race.

5:15 And I look back and he was walking and it was

5:17 just me and Reinhold off for the rest of the race, and then it was extreme.

5:22 I mean, that day I won that stage by 90 minutes and ended up winning the race.

5:25 But yeah, that's pretty much accurate.

5:27 ANDY GALPIN: Part of the story you just you just jumped over,

5:30 150 miles through Mongolia?

5:31 KEN RIDEOUT: 155 miles— six day stage race self-supported,

5:36 meaning you had to carry everything that you needed,

5:39 plus some mandatory safety equipment.

5:41 And they provided a tent every night and water.

5:44 So the stages were predetermined.

5:47 So it was like 21 miles, 28, maybe 25, 50, 26.

5:54 And then the last one was like five or six miles.

5:56 ANDY GALPIN: So you do one stage per day, you sleep at night,

5:59 you wake up and then everyone starts at the same time?

6:01 KEN RIDEOUT: And to be honest with you,

6:02 I think if it was straight through and just like a survival endurance thing,

6:06 it might have been easier because I did not want to hang out in the camp.

6:09 And to me, I was just wasting time.

6:11 I'm like, I don't want to hang out in this damn camp.

6:13 I'm starving to death, I'm burning like 8 to 10,000 calories a day,

6:16 and I only have 2,500 calories with me.

6:19 And you have to manage this every day, but it's like anything else.

6:23 You learn so many tricks along the way that I didn't— I

6:26 just learned so many things that people who do these races regularly do.

6:30 It was part of the racing the planet series, which they do a bunch of races

6:34 across different deserts and different rough terrain.

6:37 So a lot of the people knew each other.

6:38 It was funny, they all knew each other and people

6:41 were— it turns out some of them knew who I was,

6:43 but they were still dismissive and not rude to me,

6:46 but I definitely didn't feel like part of the crowd.

6:48 And I didn't probably didn't say two words

6:49 to people for the first day and a half.

6:51 And then once we got to the thing and people started saying,

6:54 oh, that guy is— he's this is who that guy is.

6:58 And they started there was one guy, Kelly and Ryan,

7:01 Irish guy, who was super nice to me.

7:02 His family owns Ryan Air.

7:04 ANDY GALPIN: Oh, wow.

7:05 KEN RIDEOUT: Just a total gentleman.

7:06 And he was like, after the first day I got killed,

7:08 I was fourth— came in fourth place.

7:10 And Killian said to me like, yo,

7:12 those guys think that they're going to wear you down every day.

7:14 They know you're a marathoner and don't have experience with this.

7:17 And I remember saying to him they're going to wear me down.

7:19 No one wears me down, I'm killing everyone.

7:22 Even though I was like, I'm going to get killed.

7:25 But I was just trying to project and I was

7:28 almost subconsciously trying to talk myself in to the place

7:30 where I knew I had to get to emotionally

7:33 to like this was— when I say it was hard,

7:35 man, it was— I know it's easy to be, oh, of course,

7:38 it was hard and corny and cliche, but it was hard man.

7:42 Participating isn't hard, competing is hard.

7:45 Trying to win is hard.

7:47 And which is why the title of the book is everything he wants,

7:51 on the other side of hard because it's like did,

7:53 was it easy to get a PhD, was it easy to start your own podcast?

7:57 Find guests, research the guests?

7:59 It's like everything in your life that's worth having is hard.

8:03 And I wanted to win that race, and I knew it would be hard.

8:06 And I felt foolish at times thinking like, why did I think I can win this?

8:10 I'm an idiot.

8:10 I'm going to be lucky to survive.

8:12 And then eventually I did, but it wasn't easy.

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9:43 You wrote in the book about how when you did marathons,

9:48 you would analyze every aspect of the track, the weather.

9:53 You were hyper prepared.

9:54 Pretty easy to tell from your personality pretty quickly,

9:57 that's a big part of you.

9:58 You didn't do anything for this race?

10:00 KEN RIDEOUT: No, I knew— ANDY GALPIN:

10:02 Tell me about— first of all, how many ultras had you done?

10:05 KEN RIDEOUT: Zero.

10:06 ANDY GALPIN: Zero.

10:06 You went from the longest race of your career being 26.2 and you 5x that?

10:13 KEN RIDEOUT: Marathon a day, plus a 50 miler for six days.

10:16 ANDY GALPIN: And how many years did you prepare for that?

10:19 KEN RIDEOUT: Four weeks.

10:19 ANDY GALPIN: Four weeks?

10:21 You have to give me more.

10:23 Why the hell did you sign up for 155 mile race on four weeks notice?

10:28 And how were you with the lack of preparation and planning?

10:32 KEN RIDEOUT: Great questions.

10:34 I had one Tokyo the 50 and over race in Tokyo and had the best— ANDY GALPIN:

10:37 You're the— you're the— for the record,

10:39 you're the fastest marathoner in the world over 50.

10:42 KEN RIDEOUT: I won the world championships at that race for 50 and over.

10:46 To say I'm the fastest would imply there's not another man

10:48 in the world that over 50 that can run— ANDY GALPIN: The fastest time.

10:51 KEN RIDEOUT: On the race day,

10:52 two guys that came in second and third had both run 225.

10:55 The best I'd ever run is 228, but they did some things.

10:58 I did some things, like all, all legal things, obviously.

11:01 ANDY GALPIN: You can look strategy wise.

11:02 Tactics strategy.

11:04 KEN RIDEOUT: Exactly.

11:04 They did some things tactically and I did some counter moves tactically,

11:08 and I beat them both by less than a minute.

11:10 Anyone who knows me knows like I'm not a narcissist, I don't think I'm great.

11:14 I don't think I'm special.

11:15 But I would say that what I did on that day

11:17 was like someone else was executing shit for me.

11:20 It just everything went right.

11:24 And believe me, I've had races where every single thing has gone wrong.

11:28 But when I heard about the race, Scott Giroux,

11:30 who at the time was the CEO of Equinox,

11:33 former dean at Michigan Business School and now the CEO at Ironman,

11:37 just a friend connected me with him.

11:39 Scott wanted to ask me questions about running in general.

11:43 And I talked to him, I never met him.

11:45 And I'm talking to him and he's telling

11:47 me about this race and for whatever reason,

11:48 like when people ask me, what about badwater?

11:51 What about western states?

11:53 I'm like, dude, the race,

11:54 I don't know why I'm not— again, there's nothing special about me.

11:58 It has to speak to me.

11:59 I heard about it and I was I'm winning that.

12:01 I want to do that desperately,

12:02 like the Ironman and I'm like, I have to go there.

12:05 ANDY GALPIN: Not, I'm going to do it.

12:06 I'm winning that.

12:07 KEN RIDEOUT: Ironman I was like— Ironman I was like I want to do—

12:10 I want to qualify because that to me was the win is qualifying.

12:13 But when I started winning races in my late 40s,

12:16 I never did another race not thinking I could win in some way,

12:19 shape, or form some capacity.

12:21 Other than— whether it was the age group in a world marathon

12:23 major or the— Myrtle Beach marathon the day before I turned 50,

12:29 I won the marathon in 230 flat, and we can come back to that.

12:33 So Scott's telling me about the race.

12:35 And I'm like, dude, I think I can win that.

12:37 And he was thought I was crazy.

12:39 And he's email the race director,

12:42 so I reached out to the American woman based in Hong Kong,

12:45 and she was you can get in.

12:46 I sent her some news clippings and stuff and said, here's my background.

12:50 I would love to be involved in the race.

12:52 And she was like, we'd love to have you come on.

12:54 And I signed up and bought the bat— bought backpacks,

12:57 and I started researching it extensively,

12:59 trying to figure out, what the hell do I need?

13:01 What do I eat?

13:01 I didn't even know camping food, like freeze dried camping food.

13:05 I didn't know anything about it, I had no experience hunting.

13:08 I had never been camping, and I wasn't looking forward to it.

13:11 I'm a big baby when I travel.

13:12 I want to stay at the four seasons, I don't try to pretend to be a hard guy.

13:16 I'm like, no, I don't want to rough it.

13:19 I've roughed it my whole first half of my life, I'm done with roughing.

13:22 So I'm thinking— I start running

13:24 with a backpack trying different ones in Nashville,

13:27 and I have water and towels in my backpack to simulate 20 pounds.

13:32 And let me tell you something, 20 pounds is effing heavy.

13:35 I was running, and again, everything with me is never heart rate.

13:39 It's all perceived effort.

13:40 So let's say at the time, and I was in shape,

13:42 and my rationale is to signing up for the race

13:45 to come back to that part of your question.

13:47 I knew that there's no way that someone had cumulatively more miles run than me.

13:53 Maybe they had done different training to prepare for this endeavor,

13:56 but just on a whole, I don't know how much— how many miles can your body absorb?

14:02 If I run more than 22 miles, it becomes like diminishing returns.

14:06 The recovery takes so long like running a race.

14:09 So my rationale was, well,

14:11 I know I have endurance and I know I have toughness and I

14:16 know I can acquire the knowledge about what to bring, what to do.

14:19 And the rest is experience.

14:20 And experience counts for everything in marathoning Ironman,

14:23 you just don't know what you don't know.

14:25 And when people are like, I've never run a marathon,

14:27 but I'm going to do it under three hours and I'm like,

14:29 I don't care how good you are until you get out there and do it,

14:32 it's two different conversations because when you do it, people are oh,

14:35 man, I, I hit the wall here I all the things you're like.

14:38 It's like people going to Hawaii saying, Oh, it's so hot and so windy.

14:42 I'm like, yeah, no shit.

14:43 Same thing every year.

14:44 It never changes.

14:45 Same thing you did exactly what everyone else did.

14:47 Welcome to the fucking world.

14:49 It's like that's what it is.

14:50 ANDY GALPIN: Welcome to Kona.

14:51 So this is exactly what it is.

14:52 KEN RIDEOUT: It's hard.

14:53 There's a reason people like it's revered

14:55 and respected and everything that goes along with it.

14:57 I remember distinctly my wife driving me to the airport and being,

15:01 yo, are you excited, Mongolia?

15:03 And the other thing is, I love exotic travel.

15:05 I like doing random weird stuff where people are like, where are you going?

15:08 I'm like, yeah, I'm flying to Ulaanbaatar and my wife's like, are you excited?

15:12 And I'm like, no, I'm not excited.

15:13 I feel like I'm going to the electric chair.

15:16 I'm like, what have I done?

15:17 Like everyone— I had some sponsors.

15:19 I'm like I don't need this pressure, it's hard enough to go do it.

15:21 Now I know people are watching and she's like, you signed up for this?

15:25 I'm I know, I know, just don't ask me if I'm happy about it, I'll talk.

15:28 I'll be happy when it's over.

15:30 And I remember walking onto the flight in Nashville,

15:32 walking down the jetway to start the journey

15:34 from Nashville to Atlanta to South Korea to Ulaanbaatar.

15:38 And I had like, literally like a mindset

15:40 shift that was almost subconscious where I was like, oh, my God, I'm scared.

15:44 I wanted to cry.

15:44 I had that depressing feeling,

15:46 like my parents just dropped me off at summer camp.

15:48 And I'm like, you guys are leaving me here?

15:50 And I'm like, walking to the walking the plank.

15:53 And then I just had a mindset shift of you know what?

15:55 F this, I'm no victim and I'm not going to get bullied around by anyone.

15:59 And I always— I was talking to Rob more this morning about this.

16:02 I'm like, whatever you think in your mind is the truth.

16:05 If you think that you're scared and you're going to get killed, then maybe so.

16:09 But if you think you can kill everyone else and you can go and dominate,

16:13 then that might be true too.

16:14 And it's much more fun to picture yourself the hero than the goat,

16:18 than the scapegoat, or like the person who's going to get mashed up.

16:23 So I just remember thinking like it's time, let's go.

16:26 It's like, get your head out of your ass and stop this moping around.

16:29 And I didn't sleep, I just thought about the race for the next 20 hours.

16:36 Got to Ulaanbaatar and slept in the like what was

16:39 the most expensive hotel but was like your worst nightmare.

16:42 I was falling off the shower and I'm just like, what the hell am I doing here?

16:46 And then the funny thing is, I didn't know very much.

16:48 So they said, we're going to— I thought that in the morning we'll get

16:51 up and we'll start the stage race like out in the desert from the city,

16:55 outside of the city, like, no, no, no.

16:57 Saturday night we're going to bus you— Saturday morning,

16:59 we're going to bus you out all day Saturday into the desert.

17:02 And then you'll sleep in the tents,

17:04 and then you'll get up in the morning and race.

17:05 And I'm like, oh, my God, there's one extra day in the tent.

17:08 I don't want to be in a tent.

17:09 ANDY GALPIN: The funny part is like growing up as a an outdoorsman.

17:13 A little bit like sleeping in a tent is very normal for me.

17:17 And what's funny for you— KEN RIDEOUT:

17:19 You're with your buddies and you got your camping equipment and your stove.

17:22 ANDY GALPIN: No, no, no, no.

17:22 KEN RIDEOUT: Just a backpack.

17:24 I just had a sleeping bag.

17:25 ANDY GALPIN: Like that would be the part

17:26 that would make me the most comfortable.

17:28 And you're not— you're not worried about the 155

17:31 miles you're about to race in right now,

17:33 and in the book you're complaining mostly about the tent.

17:36 KEN RIDEOUT: Even thinking about it now,

17:37 I couldn't— I couldn't get out of my mind.

17:38 I'm like I can't believe I'm doing this.

17:40 ANDY GALPIN: That part of— I'll leave that part alone.

17:42 But that's the funny part.

17:43 So not only you're flying halfway across the world, literally by yourself,

17:47 going where, there's no cell service, for the most part.

17:50 You're going to go run 150 miles,

17:51 which is 5 times longer than anything you've ever done.

17:54 You have no preparation, you don't know the course,

17:56 you don't know anything about it.

17:58 And your biggest concern is probably waiting in line

18:01 to board the airplane and sleeping in a sleeping bag?

18:04 KEN RIDEOUT: 100%.

18:05 Can I get my bags on the overhead without getting harassed and hassled?

18:09 And how is it going to be sleeping

18:11 on the floor of a tent next to three other strangers,

18:14 three women from all over the world?

18:16 ANDY GALPIN: Not the death that you're going to force yourself almost into?

18:20 That part's OK.

18:21 KEN RIDEOUT: No, because that was I'm comfortable with physical suffering.

18:24 That part is there's almost like some salvation there,

18:27 it's almost like a noble cause.

18:28 There's nothing noble about sleeping uncomfortably.

18:31 I'm a baby with sleep.

18:32 I need to be in a bed.

18:33 Everything has to be aligned, the temperature has to be perfect.

18:36 And dude, the first night it rained sideways.

18:39 At one point I thought this tent was going to blow away.

18:42 It was just— just the rattling of the tent.

18:44 It felt like I was on the side of Everest

18:46 and the thing was like just getting battered by rain.

18:50 Rain was coming in the frigging tent, I was like,

18:53 God, why are you doing this to me?

18:55 And I got up in the morning again, no one's talking to me.

18:57 I'm just going about my business.

18:59 And you know those crowds they all those people that know each other like,

19:03 hey, what's up, Joe?

19:05 How you doing?

19:05 Haven't seen you all great and everyone's happy.

19:07 Yay!

19:08 We're going to go do an adventure.

19:09 And I'm like, it's on.

19:10 I'm fucking killing all of you guys.

19:12 Like, I'm going to kill you guys.

19:15 And sure enough, the race takes off, dude, and we are on the gas.

19:18 There is no strategy.

19:20 I mean, matter of fact, typically, we get to the aid station,

19:23 you stop, you load up on water, you do this.

19:26 I rip into the aid station with like four or five other guys.

19:29 And I'm like, as I run up, I go, yo, do we have to stop?

19:31 And they're like, no, you don't have to stop.

19:33 I'm later, right through the aid station.

19:35 ANDY GALPIN: What are you probably?

19:36 eight, 10 miles in before that first aid station something?

19:39 KEN RIDEOUT: Five or six.

19:40 ANDY GALPIN: Five or six.

19:41 So you don't need that much water.

19:42 KEN RIDEOUT: No, no.

19:43 ANDY GALPIN: But you probably should have because

19:45 you got the next 150 to pay attention.

19:46 KEN RIDEOUT: You want to be— ANDY GALPIN: You can't get behind.

19:48 KEN RIDEOUT: You want to be fueling early and often and not get behind.

19:51 But I felt so good.

19:52 And then because I didn't stop, no one wanted to stop.

19:54 So was, oh good, I'm going to drag everyone

19:57 into the deep water and then we'll see who can swim.

20:00 ANDY GALPIN: What pace are you out here?

20:02 Are you running six?

20:03 KEN RIDEOUT: We're probably just under seven minute miles.

20:05 And the thing I lost my train of thought

20:07 earlier when I was saying when I was training,

20:09 if my normal pace is like at that stage,

20:12 7 minute miles would be like, not pushing it, but not taking it easy.

20:17 It'd be like a sustainable effort what I can run that pace all day.

20:22 When I put that backpack on, like 8:30 was like the same

20:25 effort that I was given to run seven minutes was like 8:30 pace.

20:29 And I was like, holy shit,

20:31 I am— I'm working and I'm like, barely moving, relatively speaking.

20:36 So when we were running and in that first day, you're fully loaded,

20:39 it doesn't get much lighter contrary to popular belief,

20:41 the food doesn't weigh much.

20:43 You have mandatory stuff, your sleeping bag,

20:45 a sleeping pad which you didn't need a sleeping pad.

20:47 But like, I had to sleep.

20:48 I couldn't just not have any comfort at all.

20:51 And we're just tearing, tearing through these trails.

20:55 We're running through rivers like your shoes are soaking wet.

20:58 It just— it's so hard.

21:01 But I was like I'll relax when we get done with this stage.

21:05 And then we get to about three to five miles to go,

21:07 and we go up the literally up the side of a mountain.

21:10 And the other two guys, the Israeli and the Swiss guy,

21:12 whipped out their poles and they're like, and I didn't have any poles.

21:16 So I was like, damn it.

21:18 And I mean, they would have beat me anyway, but I was in hell.

21:21 I mean, it was so steep.

21:22 I'm like, we're walking, but I'm like stopping and be oh shit,

21:25 how much further is this?

21:27 And it's one of those ones where as you go up,

21:28 you keep thinking, you see the peak,

21:30 and then you get to the peak and you're like,

21:31 oh my God, I'm not even halfway up here.

21:33 And then at the top, you run along a ridgeline.

21:36 And I mean, this is when I was like this race is crazy.

21:39 The ridgeline was so steep, I'm if I fall here, I might die.

21:43 And it was dangerous.

21:44 And I remember getting back to the camp

21:47 that night and saying to the person like,

21:49 dude, how did you get insurance for this race?

21:52 Someone's going to die.

21:53 If you make a mistake here, I mean,

21:54 we would end up doing much more dangerous stuff than the ridgeline.

21:58 So after we get up and over the mountain,

22:00 along the ridgeline, I'm in third and I'm running, and we come down in a little—

22:04 in a little depression and there's like a dried riverbed.

22:07 So I'm like, OK, no problem.

22:09 It's probably 100 yards across dried riverbed.

22:11 As soon as I step in it,

22:12 it's basically a dried riverbed with like a thick layer of cake of mud.

22:17 And then as soon as you step in it and go through,

22:19 you're in— ANDY GALPIN: You're gone.

22:21 KEN RIDEOUT: Thick like clay, like mud and covered in mud.

22:23 ANDY GALPIN: That will not come off your shoes.

22:25 KEN RIDEOUT: And I gotta tell you, I hate being dirty, I hate being wet.

22:29 Everything about it, I hate.

22:30 I hate being uncomfortable.

22:31 ANDY GALPIN: City boy.

22:31 KEN RIDEOUT: I'm like a baby crying with a dirty diaper.

22:34 And I'm like, oh my God.

22:35 So I'm like, I'm not going to fall down.

22:37 I'm going to go slower.

22:38 So I don't have to fall right down.

22:40 Covered in mud.

22:41 And when I get back, I mean, I fell down a few times and was covered in mud.

22:44 People came in like they were— you couldn't even see them.

22:47 All you could see was their eyes.

22:48 And I get to the finish and I'm like, oh my God, what have I done?

22:53 This sucks.

22:54 I can't even believe that I have to be here for five more days,

22:57 and that's when the Kelly and Ryan was, yo, they said they're going to kill you.

23:00 They're like super confident.

23:02 I'm like, don't worry about it, Kelly.

23:03 And tomorrow's another day.

23:05 But in my mind I'm like, oh my God, what have I got myself into?

23:08 ANDY GALPIN: You know Michael Easter?

23:09 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah.

23:09 I mean, I know him personally.

23:11 I know who he is.

23:11 ANDY GALPIN: I was with him a couple of weeks ago in Vegas,

23:13 and he was on stage talking about how he spent a month

23:15 or five weeks or something above the Arctic circle or some way up there.

23:20 And how he got back and got in the airplane

23:24 and was washing his hands in the bathroom,

23:26 and that was the first hot water he had touched in a month.

23:29 And he was this is just the most remarkable feeling.

23:32 And he's typically, was complaining on airplanes about the food and all that.

23:37 And he's like this is the most comfortable chair I've ever sat in my life,

23:40 hot water, just completely.

23:41 I have to imagine you had a similar feeling when

23:43 you got back to those camps and you're just thinking,

23:45 I don't have my four seasons anymore,

23:47 but at least I have water to wash this mud off my face.

23:50 KEN RIDEOUT: Well, the other thing is they gave you water,

23:52 but they're do not waste this, what we have is what we brought with us.

23:55 Do not waste the water showering,

23:57 washing your clothes because I was like, get the hell out of here.

24:00 There was some Italian guys there who I absolutely love.

24:02 ANDY GALPIN: You're good at following rules.

24:04 KEN RIDEOUT: Oh, yeah.

24:04 I'm a big believer in beg for forgiveness, never ask for permission.

24:08 So one of the Italian guys, I was, hey, buddy, what the hell was his name?

24:12 Felipe or something.

24:13 I'm like, hey, hold this water bottle over my head while I quickly shower.

24:16 I had a little tiny drop of concentrated camp soap.

24:20 So I would wash everything with my clothes on.

24:22 Then I would take the clothes, hang them up.

24:24 So at least they weren't like standing up

24:26 by themselves by the— by the end of the week.

24:29 And then I had camp clothes so I would hang those up.

24:31 So I tried to keep myself cleaned up and like a little bit comfortable.

24:36 But the nice thing about finishing so far ahead

24:38 of the girls is I'd get to the tent and I'd be,

24:40 oh, I have the whole tent because the first

24:42 night they were like, we set up the tent.

24:45 Yeah, Ken, come on in.

24:45 I'm like sleeping in the middle.

24:47 It's like it was awful, and there's rocks underneath the tent.

24:51 We ended up really getting along well, the girls.

24:53 So I'd get there first.

24:54 I'd go underneath the tent, get all the rocks out because the people

24:57 are just setting the tents up, they don't care.

24:58 I'm like I eventually went over to the Mongolian guys,

25:00 I'm guys, you don't see all these rocks underneath?

25:03 At the very least, kick the big ones out of the way.

25:06 So I'd get it all ready.

25:07 But the nice thing is,

25:08 I'd get my spot set up exactly where I want it, right inside the door.

25:11 So if I had to go to the bathroom, I could pop out of the tent.

25:14 And it was just— it's funny the little things

25:16 that you start to appreciate when you have basically nothing.

25:19 It's like when I worked in the prison,

25:21 you see the inmates would set up the cell and it

25:24 would be like if you touched anything in their cell,

25:27 it would be like World War III.

25:28 They kept that thing like dialed in, and that's

25:30 how I had my tent is like my cell.

25:32 And they call it the house in jail.

25:34 Like don't someone— who went in my house?

25:36 I was, yo, don't let anyone in the house if I'm not here.

25:39 That's what I would tell the girls.

25:41 ANDY GALPIN: So you're doing what pace for these 20, 25 mile stages?

25:45 If your marathon is we'll just call it 230.

25:47 What are these five hour?

25:49 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah, probably.

25:50 But the thing is it's hard to even say a pace because some days where,

25:53 one day we were like hands and knees scaling a rock

25:57 giant rock structure that took an hour to get up.

26:00 There's pictures, I have pictures posted.

26:02 If you just Google my name and Mongolia,

26:04 you'll see there's one where I'm coming up climbing a rock.

26:07 And there were race officials and I go,

26:10 dude, somebody is going to fall here and die.

26:12 It was so steep.

26:13 And they were older people there too.

26:15 And I was, I go, how did you get permission to do this?

26:18 He's like, that's why it's in Mongolia and not

26:20 the US because you would never be able to do this.

26:23 ANDY GALPIN: Do you happen to notice on that race

26:25 if anybody else was following heart rate monitors,

26:29 trying to use technology, was anyone there or was,

26:32 do you have to just be intuitive on something like that?

26:34 KEN RIDEOUT: I would imagine there was some guys that were

26:38 super like tech and data nerds that were really into it.

26:41 But I mean, what— it's like I was talking to Normann Stadler,

26:44 the Ironman World champion,

26:46 one time, and he's I was talking about power and what's on the bike.

26:51 And I was like, what are you doing?

26:52 He's like, no.

26:53 I had a power Meter sponsor,

26:54 but I put tape over it because at the end of the day,

26:57 I'm trying to win the race.

26:58 It doesn't matter what this says.

26:59 If one guy takes off up the road, I have to make a decision of who is that?

27:04 That guy, not worried about him.

27:06 That guy goes up the road,

27:07 I have to go with him because it's like if he— if I can't cover this move,

27:10 I'm basically making my whole bet is that he can't sustain that.

27:13 I don't know what he's done for training.

27:15 So when you're trying to be competitive,

27:17 I think there's only so much you can do with data.

27:20 I mean, there are certain athletes that they

27:22 just hold the same pace and it works.

27:24 And it's, but you're making a bet that the other person can't

27:27 do what they're basically telling you they can do with their early move.

27:30 And it's like, do I want to bet my whole race on my strategy or?

27:35 So there's a big difference in trying to survive versus trying to win.

27:42 And when you're winning,

27:44 you have to have some intuition to be I need to cover this.

27:49 Or at the same time, like you'll see in the last five pages of my book,

27:52 that one guy makes a move and I'm like,

27:54 if that guy can run that pace and win big, be my guest.

27:56 He probably ran past me at like 520 pace at three miles.

27:59 And I'm like, who is this guy?

28:01 Like, he's in my age group, but I don't know who it is.

28:04 And there's only a few guys that I know have

28:06 a chance to win this, and he wasn't one of them.

28:08 So I was like, oh, my God damn you.

28:11 But I'm sure some of them, everyone there was telling me about their ultra

28:17 coaching experience and I'm like, come on, man.

28:19 If you're coaching, you should be trouncing me,

28:21 and you're finishing hours after me.

28:23 Come on.

28:24 ANDY GALPIN: I want to come back actually later and ask about how you

28:29 find this balance between intuition and actually

28:31 data driven and coaching and things like that.

28:34 I know that's part of your things,

28:36 but let's keep going with this particular story.

28:38 So you've smashed through, you've got through the lake.

28:44 You're dried up, you got another 50 miles the next day.

28:47 KEN RIDEOUT: So no.

28:48 So the next day is 28 miles.

28:50 ANDY GALPIN: Oh, easy.

28:51 Nice soft 28.

28:52 KEN RIDEOUT: I'm like hurting.

28:53 So I'm like all right, I'm not going to even look at those guys today.

28:57 I'm going to just run my own pace because if I keep trying to push the pace,

29:00 I'm not even going to finish.

29:01 ANDY GALPIN: You said this multiple times, I was really hurting.

29:05 I've never run a marathon or anywhere in anywhere close.

29:08 When you say hurting in a situation like that, I have to filter it.

29:12 I'm you run 150 miles, you're hurting is not the same as my hurting.

29:16 What does hurting mean at that stage?

29:19 What is in your body?

29:20 What is happening?

29:21 What are you feeling that makes you go, I'm hurting right now?

29:24 KEN RIDEOUT: Well, imagine running a 21 mile race.

29:27 Your body is— ANDY GALPIN: Not 21 miles, like racing it.

29:29 Yes— trying to win it.

29:30 KEN RIDEOUT: Exactly.

29:31 So like that first day, I was completely depleted.

29:34 I hadn't slept, I was on a red eye.

29:36 And then I slept in this hotel, and I ended up falling asleep at 4

29:39 o'clock in the afternoon and waking up at, like, 2:00 in the morning.

29:42 Can't go back to sleep, my circadian rhythm is nonexistent.

29:45 So my body is just completely shot.

29:48 Then I go out to camp the next night.

29:50 I've been up since 2:00 in the morning the night before,

29:52 and I can't sleep in the rain.

29:54 And I'm anxious and nervous.

29:55 By the time that first day is over, my body is just broken down and hurting.

30:00 ANDY GALPIN: Are you like sore?

30:01 KEN RIDEOUT: Sore beyond words.

30:02 My back hurts.

30:03 I'm— oh, and I'm chafed everywhere from the backpack because

30:06 at this point I don't have any tape on or anything yet.

30:09 I would eventually end up taping my whole body with kinesio tape,

30:12 and like that tape, that's like cushioned— ANDY GALPIN: Like pre-wrap or?

30:17 KEN RIDEOUT: Not pre-wrap, the stuff that's thick it's like felt on one side.

30:20 So I'm putting strips of this thick ass tape around my waist

30:23 and on my shoulders because it's burned like burn marks from the raw.

30:28 ANDY GALPIN: Raw— rubbed raw your feet, your knees.

30:30 KEN RIDEOUT: The backpack is smashing against every step,

30:33 against my lower back and creating

30:35 swelling across like right above my waistline.

30:37 And it's like I almost felt like it was like compartment syndrome looking.

30:41 It was swollen in a way where I'm it felt like the worst bruise you've ever had,

30:46 and it looked terrible.

30:48 I mean, to the point where I'm what the F is going on?

30:51 My back looks like I have leprosy.

30:53 And they're like, oh no, it's just a heat rash.

30:55 And I'm like, well, should I keep taping it?

30:56 And they're like, I mean, in a perfect world,

30:58 you should not put your backpack on again.

31:00 But we've got five days to go.

31:01 And I mean, it looked terrible.

31:03 ANDY GALPIN: So you're one day in.

31:05 You've got blisters, rashes all over and burns.

31:10 Sunburn?

31:11 KEN RIDEOUT: No real sunburn.

31:12 ANDY GALPIN: Lips chapped?

31:13 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah, lips definitely chapped.

31:15 But not like— not like crazy.

31:16 I've always had decent genetics.

31:18 My skin doesn't really burn much.

31:20 I don't get super chapped lips like some people.

31:23 I was like— but I mean, I looked like shit.

31:26 ANDY GALPIN: I hadn't slept, and when you said under fueled.

31:29 KEN RIDEOUT: Oh, I mean,

31:31 I ate 2,500 calories and I burned at least 7,000 the first day.

31:35 I mean, I'm instantly I can see I'm losing weight,

31:38 and hydrated perfectly well beyond because I

31:41 only had the salts that I had there.

31:43 I had LMNT with me and I had enough two a day.

31:45 ANDY GALPIN: You had like two packs of LMNT.

31:47 KEN RIDEOUT: Yes, a day.

31:48 ANDY GALPIN: And you probably, I would have guessed, I don't know,

31:51 dumped 7 to 10 grams at best a third repleted.

31:54 KEN RIDEOUT: 100%.

31:55 ANDY GALPIN: Not even close.

31:56 KEN RIDEOUT: So when you start, you're like, oh my God,

31:58 I feel like shit, this is going to be a long day.

32:00 So I was saying, I need to be strategic.

32:02 The other thing I was saying earlier, too,

32:04 about experiences when people started dropping out and they started dropping

32:07 out after the first day and they'd be like, oh, I'm leaving.

32:10 I'm like, give me that food.

32:11 Whatever they had, it wouldn't help me to carry more,

32:13 so I would just eat anything.

32:15 I could find people.

32:16 If people weren't eating the rest of their food, I had no pride.

32:18 I was are you going to eat the rest of those noodles?

32:21 No, I'm going to throw them.

32:22 I'll have those.

32:23 I was I'm in combat mode, I'm I don't care if what germs you have.

32:28 Give me those damn noodles I was eating.

32:29 I ate a pack of, I don't even like sardines.

32:31 I was like I'm throwing these sardines away.

32:33 I'm I know sardines are rich in calories and fat.

32:36 I was give me those damn great, great strategy.

32:38 Oh my God.

32:39 ANDY GALPIN: So you didn't put anything into the preparation for that stuff.

32:42 You didn't think about the fueling.

32:43 KEN RIDEOUT: I just knew I needed like three meals a day.

32:46 So I grabbed three packs of these— what is it called?

32:48 Backpacker's friend or one of those brands.

32:51 ANDY GALPIN: That was it you didn't have any strategy for macronutrients.

32:55 KEN RIDEOUT: I was a complete idiot.

32:56 I didn't know anything and I didn't really care,

32:58 I was just I'm going to grit it out.

33:00 ANDY GALPIN: Do you remember what you took food wise?

33:02 I actually want to know.

33:03 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah, so like in the morning I

33:05 would eat like to— it was like an MRE,

33:07 so it had like scrambled eggs and sausage in it, let's say.

33:10 And you pour hot water.

33:11 ANDY GALPIN: Maybe some potatoes or something.

33:12 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah, exactly.

33:13 So it would be like some breakfast thing.

33:15 Then for lunch, it might be like Thai noodles with freeze dried chicken.

33:20 And it was actually good, I liked them.

33:22 It was just like you wouldn't eat them normally

33:24 because they're loaded with sodium and all this other shit,

33:26 but— ANDY GALPIN: It's intentionally.

33:28 KEN RIDEOUT: And then for dinner, it might be like macaroni and cheese or beef

33:33 stroganoff I don't know, you grab a pack.

33:36 ANDY GALPIN: Yeah, I got it.

33:37 So basic, I mean, these are— I've eaten more

33:39 packs of these in my life than I can count.

33:41 Like this is what you do when you go hunting.

33:43 KEN RIDEOUT: That's exactly right.

33:44 ANDY GALPIN: So you didn't take anything else besides those?

33:46 KEN RIDEOUT: No.

33:47 Oh, no, sorry.

33:48 I might have a few bars, random like.

33:51 ANDY GALPIN: It really no 150 calories is really.

33:53 KEN RIDEOUT: Exactly.

33:54 I had a couple meal replacement bars and I forget the brand,

33:57 but they were very, very dense.

33:58 And they didn't taste good, but I would force them down during this stage.

34:02 ANDY GALPIN: And then you're just relying on the aid stations to just grab?

34:05 KEN RIDEOUT: All they had was water.

34:07 ANDY GALPIN: Oh, no.

34:08 KEN RIDEOUT: Yes.

34:08 ANDY GALPIN: You don't even have— OK.

34:09 KEN RIDEOUT: It was just water.

34:11 ANDY GALPIN: So traditional ultras,

34:12 they're going to have peanut butter and jelly and— KEN RIDEOUT:

34:14 Oh, no, this is a survival race, man.

34:16 They didn't give you anything except water.

34:17 ANDY GALPIN: It would have been impossible for you

34:19 to run with enough water that you needed.

34:21 KEN RIDEOUT: Exactly.

34:22 So the aid station would be so you could load up with water.

34:25 So and even that I had like two,

34:27 I had a flask in the back with the hose on it or whatever that's called.

34:31 And I know— when I tell you

34:33 I know nothing about ultrarunning or camping, nothing.

34:35 So I had the camelbak, and I had some collapsible little water bottles,

34:39 two of them that would fit right here.

34:41 They were small.

34:42 They were 12oz.

34:44 So I would run through, load up, and be in and out.

34:48 I was never at the aid station like hanging.

34:50 ANDY GALPIN: So these are every five miles?

34:52 KEN RIDEOUT: Five to 10, they were really spread out.

34:54 On the 50 mile stage if you covered that stage in the book,

35:00 if you read about that the guy— the guy who was leading with me,

35:03 the Swiss guy, he almost dropped dead.

35:05 He had to stop and sit down in the desert.

35:08 And I was, man, we got to get to the next aid station,

35:10 and they were just so far apart.

35:12 And he couldn't make it and have an aid truck,

35:14 a truck came and eventually gave him first aid,

35:16 and he eventually walked into camp.

35:18 Dude, it was like a movie.

35:19 I've been in camp for like hours, chilling, eating, relaxing.

35:24 And here he comes, walking in the dark.

35:26 I'm like, dude, I can't believe you made it.

35:29 15 miles ago, I thought you were dead.

35:32 And he was, he wouldn't let me help him with his pack.

35:34 Nothing he's I don't want to drop out of the race,

35:36 and I gotta finish this dude tough.

35:38 ANDY GALPIN: What a tough, tough guy.

35:39 KEN RIDEOUT: Stoic never talked to me.

35:40 ANDY GALPIN: Somebody had died the year before or the race before?

35:43 KEN RIDEOUT: And had to get— I had to get

35:45 him out of the sand dunes with a camel.

35:46 They couldn't even get the truck in there, it was so treacherous.

35:49 ANDY GALPIN: This sounds like an amazing race to not prepare for.

35:52 So for weeks and no strategy— KEN RIDEOUT:

35:54 I think if I knew what I was getting into, I might have talked myself out of it.

35:58 ANDY GALPIN: Of course.

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37:14 So you run through all that thing and you got 50 and change the next day.

37:19 And then it finishes on like a five mile, you said?

37:22 KEN RIDEOUT: Five or six miles like a ceremonial stage.

37:25 And that's where the guy Kelly and Ryan said to me, oh, you're winning, man.

37:29 Are you going to let someone else win this stage?

37:31 Take it easy.

37:32 You got a 90 minute lead.

37:33 You're going to have a fun day relax, I was, dude, are you insane?

37:36 I will die before I let someone win.

37:38 No chance.

37:38 This is a race to the death.

37:40 ANDY GALPIN: You're going to bury that thing.

37:41 KEN RIDEOUT: Are we're racing?

37:42 I don't care who it is.

37:43 And sure enough, the Swiss guy was, not going out without a fight.

37:46 I mean, he couldn't win the race at that point, but he's I'm winning this stage.

37:48 And I'm like, no, you're not.

37:50 And we were drag racing and it finished into a little not a city,

37:54 but into the first civilization that we've seen in a little village,

37:57 and it's like going through the, I mean,

37:59 the streets, but it's like bombed out, tar roads.

38:03 So we're racing through and then it

38:04 finishes in this big old Genghis Khan fortress,

38:07 like a big walled— ANDY GALPIN: Legitimately.

38:09 KEN RIDEOUT: Fortress.

38:10 Yeah, oh, it was gorgeous.

38:11 And I just came in there like, oh, my God, I did it.

38:13 I won like it's a stage race.

38:16 So I knew I had won.

38:17 But crossing the line first into the fortress was like, yes, thank you, Jesus.

38:23 That one I was pretty happy.

38:25 When I won the World Championships in Chicago in the age group,

38:29 I mean I was almost emotional,

38:32 the relief was— I can't imagine winning a gold medal or something.

38:36 And just like I've done everything relatively

38:39 speaking to get ready for this, and then

38:41 you win and I called my wife and I'm like, I did it.

38:43 I won, I won by less than a minute.

38:45 And she's like, oh, cool.

38:47 I had won a bunch of age groups.

38:48 I won four of the six world marathon majors, it wasn't a big deal.

38:51 I just won Tokyo, I'd already won Mongolia.

38:54 She's like, I've won some stuff.

38:56 And she's like, oh, good for you.

38:58 I'm like, no, no, no, this was fucking huge.

39:00 I won the big one, I won the age group world championships.

39:03 She's like, what?

39:05 Oh my God, I didn't know.

39:06 And I'm like, I, I didn't intentionally not tell her.

39:09 And she's like, how happy are you?

39:10 And she starts crying.

39:11 And I'm— and I almost started crying.

39:13 I'm almost crying now thinking about it I'm so relieved that it's over.

39:17 Like I did it.

39:18 And I know people listening again, it doesn't matter what you think about me,

39:22 it doesn't matter what other people think of this endeavor.

39:24 It only matters what I think.

39:26 And to me, this was my Olympics.

39:28 I was never a runner, as a kid.

39:30 10 years, 15 years before this, I was like a dead dog,

39:33 loser, degenerate, drug addict.

39:35 And now I was a world champion at something.

39:37 It was just the age group, I get it.

39:39 I know it's not the Olympics, but to me,

39:41 it mattered more than anything in the world athletically at that point.

39:44 Obviously, not more than my family, but to me it was massively important.

39:48 I poured my heart and soul into doing this, and now I

39:51 had done it and I was I can't believe I did it.

39:54 It was just the relief, I mean, I feel it now.

39:56 It's like, oh, thank God.

39:57 ANDY GALPIN: You'll hear this really consistently

39:59 with people that have broken world records,

40:02 won world championships, win gold medals.

40:05 Very often relief is the word.

40:10 It's not joy, it's not anything else.

40:13 It is cool.

40:15 And then what typically happens is what we call post gold depression.

40:19 KEN RIDEOUT: That's it.

40:19 ANDY GALPIN: And you come hammering down off that thing.

40:22 You're never— you just don't see that thing you thought you were going to feel.

40:27 KEN RIDEOUT: That's right.

40:27 ANDY GALPIN: It's there and then it's gone.

40:29 Why do you think for your experience, that's a worthwhile endeavor.

40:33 If we know that's the end, why do we even start?

40:37 KEN RIDEOUT: That's a good question.

40:38 But I had tried the mediocre road in life and it didn't pay very well,

40:43 meaning it wasn't very fulfilling.

40:45 The only things that have been fulfilling to me as a person,

40:49 as a man, has had come with suffering and struggling, getting sober.

40:54 Being a dad is not easy, that comes with struggle.

40:57 And people could say, some people seem to be on a frigging pleasure cruise

41:00 and they're just I'm the best dad and I love it.

41:02 And they look like they're doing it right and I'm,

41:04 I'm jealous because to me, it takes work.

41:07 My default setting sometimes is to be selfish and lazy.

41:10 I'm the kids will be on a Saturday afternoon I did my run,

41:14 I'm hanging— sometimes after a long week,

41:16 I'm I know my wife will be like you just wasting time in your office.

41:18 I'm like, I'm not wasting time in my office.

41:19 I'm doing what I want to do, nothing.

41:21 I want to peruse the internet, look at Twitter and be lazy.

41:24 The kids are, dad, let's throw passes, let's run routes.

41:27 And nine times out of 10 I'll be like, yes.

41:29 Once in a while I'll be, guys, I'm sorry,

41:31 I have got to just sit here and be quiet.

41:35 I'm on full speed all the time, I don't want to be.

41:39 That's the only speed that I have found that I can be successful at.

41:43 When I tried having balance and doing the things

41:46 that I wanted to do and left to my own devices,

41:50 I found drugs as a way to cope with the emptiness and the void

41:55 that was missing in my life which was having a worthwhile endeavor.

41:59 So left to my own devices, I never found peace.

42:04 When I started living a life of discipline

42:06 and goal setting and enjoying the suffering,

42:11 I was able to find moments of peace.

42:13 And more importantly, I didn't turn to drugs to find that peace.

42:16 I found peace in suffering.

42:19 So to me when I— and again, I don't profess to have all the answers,

42:23 this is not what I would suggest for anyone.

42:25 I'm in survival mode, I'm flawed, troubled, trying to find the answers myself.

42:31 But if you don't start the journey and get

42:34 on the road towards where you want to get,

42:37 you don't have to know where you're going.

42:39 But it all starts with discipline and hard work.

42:42 You're not going to get to where you were— the easy road never pays well,

42:46 and the road to heaven can feel like hell.

42:48 And the road to hell always feels like heaven

42:50 in the beginning but where they end are very different.

42:53 ANDY GALPIN: I want to ask a few more questions about pain.

42:56 You said suffering, you mentioned this multiple times.

42:59 It's very much a part of your ethos.

43:02 It's my opinion of you that is a grounding feature.

43:06 You feel safe there.

43:08 You know what to expect, and so the rest of the world gets shut down.

43:12 And when you're suffering, and it is a pretty common thing.

43:15 I've heard similar language from other people that do

43:19 ultras and other friends campaigns is like this too,

43:22 that's like it's a grounding feature of your life to have that.

43:25 It doesn't make any sense though

43:28 this oxymoron of enjoying pain and/or enjoying suffering.

43:32 And I don't necessarily think you're saying you enjoy it though,

43:35 correct me if I'm wrong there.

43:37 But I would love to know more specifics

43:39 about when you say that's an you're in pain.

43:43 What are you exactly talking about?

43:45 Because it's hard for me to relate to you

43:49 saying you're in pain or you saying you're suffering.

43:51 To me the things that bring you joy sound like suffering.

43:54 I don't want to do that.

43:55 You gave us a couple of examples earlier.

43:57 You're chafed, you're rubbing raw, you're sore there.

44:01 When you are in a race,

44:04 whether it's Mongolia or your Ironman or any of the other ones you've done.

44:08 When do you start hurting?

44:10 And what does that hurt feel like to you when you're saying you're suffering?

44:13 KEN RIDEOUT: When I'm suffering in a race,

44:15 it's I'm really depleted and it feels like I don't know if I can keep going,

44:20 but I'm going to keep pushing.

44:22 Now, there's a difference where you're, OK,

44:23 obviously if I sprint as fast as I can the first mile in a marathon,

44:27 that's not sustainable,

44:27 but I want to get to the point where I'm as uncomfortable as I can possibly be

44:32 with the pace and still think there's a chance I can make it to the finish line.

44:37 Because I can't run fast in a marathon relatively speaking,

44:39 if I don't start running fast in the beginning.

44:42 But I will tell you that if you look

44:44 at any world record or anyone that's won a big marathon,

44:48 they're either a negative split or very close to negative split.

44:51 Meaning if you run the first half and it's something about us,

44:56 we always try to convince ourselves that if I can

44:58 just bank two or three minutes in the first half,

45:00 I can hold on for the back half.

45:02 But what I've come to realize,

45:03 and what people should know, is your survival pace,

45:06 where you're just trying to survive to the finish is so much

45:10 slower than your conservative pace early

45:13 because conservatively you run a 20 seconds.

45:15 Surviving, you're running a minute mile slower.

45:18 So it's very difficult.

45:19 And this is where you get experience,

45:22 and this is where intelligence comes into play in a marathon.

45:25 If you're trying to run 540 pace for the whole marathon,

45:27 then you should be able to run 520 pace for a first 10 miles.

45:32 But how do you rein it in and hold back when you're like, oh,

45:35 I feel like I can do this at mile one, then I can do this at mile 25.

45:39 You don't know until you get there, but that's where experience comes in.

45:42 But I would say that the suffering is like all encompassing.

45:46 It's emotional, it's physical.

45:48 You just like when I say emotional,

45:50 I mean you're agonizing over am I going too fast?

45:52 Am I going to make it?

45:53 I'm trying to calculate everything in my brain.

45:55 And then eventually, 15, 20 miles in the brain isn't really working clearly.

45:59 You're trying to calculate distance and pace.

46:01 If I run six minute miles and I always default to like,

46:04 what's the worst case scenario?

46:06 If I run seven minute miles for the last three miles, that's 21 minutes.

46:09 I'm right now I'm at 210, can I get to two?

46:13 And you're doing these things and very quickly,

46:15 your brain stops working accurately because it's depleted from glycogen.

46:20 You're trying to balance everything from caloric intake, hydration.

46:24 And in a lot of ways, that's is like emotionally distressing because

46:30 you're it's so much poured into this.

46:31 This is the big day, and it's not fun.

46:34 And the suffering is just the physical pain that you would feel if

46:37 someone went out and ran 1,500 meter sprints with 20 seconds rest in between.

46:43 It's that pain but it's not that I enjoy the suffering in the moment.

46:49 When I cross the finish line and it all ends,

46:52 the relief and the euphoria that I feel is like magic.

46:56 Even when you've killed yourself and you collapse at the finish

46:58 and need to go to the medical tent with IVs,

47:01 and there's something rewarding like that where like I did it,

47:04 I did every single thing that I could.

47:06 I drained myself as a test of like the human spirit.

47:10 And I get it to people that aren't into that.

47:12 They're like this guy's an idiot.

47:14 Why would anyone do this?

47:15 I get that, I'm not talking to you.

47:17 Fucking scroll on, scram like I don't— I'm not trying to convert anyone.

47:21 But to the people who are like minded

47:24 into this, I don't have to explain it to them.

47:26 They're like, there's something magical about

47:28 testing the human limits and the spirit.

47:30 And like I said, I can tell you when I didn't have this mentality,

47:33 when I was happy to be comfortable all the time,

47:36 and I was making money and— You know what,

47:39 to find the void that this provides for me,

47:41 suffering provides me, I found that in drugs.

47:44 I found the euphoric feeling that I liked in getting high on opioids,

47:47 where I was like, man,

47:49 nothing bothers me right now because I'm using those drugs

47:54 to mask some pain and unresolved trauma in my life.

47:58 And guess what?

47:59 prior to the drugs, I had this trauma that was unresolved,

48:02 and I'm in like this, I'm in a hole.

48:04 When I take the drugs, the hole gets a little deeper,

48:07 and the first thing you have to do to fix this is number one, stop digging.

48:11 Number two, start addressing.

48:13 Why am I using drugs?

48:14 Fucking happy, healthy people don't do drugs.

48:18 Happy people aren't like, I can't wait.

48:20 I'm going to get so high this weekend.

48:22 No happy people have outlets to make them to create that feeling.

48:26 And when you're doing those drugs, you're really,

48:31 like sabotaging your own dopamine and mental and neurological reward system.

48:40 Nothing in life makes you as happy as some of these drugs.

48:43 It's completely unnatural to get this huge spike in dopamine

48:46 and serotonin and all the things that go along with it.

48:49 And all you're doing is completely F-ing this system up,

48:54 so it's completely haywire.

48:55 So now, the feeling that you're trying to get of like sitting

48:59 on— the best vacation I ever took was in Bora Bora with my wife,

49:03 one of those overwater huts.

49:05 And it's gorgeous.

49:06 And you sit-in there and you're this is it, man.

49:08 This is heaven.

49:09 That feeling is like what drugs provide to a certain extent.

49:12 The problem is when you've hijacked your system

49:15 with this artificial reward system whenever you want it,

49:18 like, oh, it's raining and it's sunny, let me get high.

49:20 Oh, I'm in the happiest mood ever.

49:22 Now, your system, when it actually when you get

49:25 off the drugs and you get to Bora Bora again,

49:27 you're like, everything's dulled, nothing's the same.

49:31 And you can't explain this to someone until they've experienced it.

49:36 And if people can learn anything from my experiences like don't get

49:41 into that position in the first place because of all the things I've won,

49:45 getting sober is by far my proudest accomplishment because it was so hard.

49:49 It would have been so much easier to just keep doing what I was doing.

49:52 But that two, three,

49:54 four week period of like getting off the getting those drugs out of my system

49:58 and getting back to a baseline of acceptable mood where I wasn't manic,

50:04 depressed, and suicidal was hell on Earth.

50:07 It was so bad that I put it off for 10 years by continuing the addiction.

50:11 And I was never like using drugs thinking like,

50:14 this is awesome, I found my answer.

50:16 I was always dude, I have got to get sober.

50:19 But I was too weak to deal with the consequences of withdrawals and detox.

50:23 And eventually, when I started running as a form

50:26 of penance to deal with my withdrawals and I was like,

50:30 I'll fucking kill myself running because I want to be dead anyway,

50:32 I don't want to live like this.

50:35 I eventually got better at running and then, thank God,

50:38 I found suffering as my salvation and a way

50:41 to cope with the feelings that drugs provided for me.

50:47 I found a worthy cause in suffering.

50:49 And again, to someone who hasn't gone through this and doesn't understand,

50:52 they'll never understand.

50:53 I'm not trying to convince you of my way of life.

50:56 ANDY GALPIN: It took you 10 years?

50:58 KEN RIDEOUT: To get off drugs, yeah.

50:59 ANDY GALPIN: And 15 attempts?

51:01 KEN RIDEOUT: Oh, at least multiple attempts a year.

51:03 Half assed, sometimes half assed, sometimes sincere.

51:05 I mean, I got off them for here and there for a month,

51:08 two months, and then I would be on Subutex, which is like methadone.

51:11 It was like— ANDY GALPIN: Stops the opiates from working.

51:14 KEN RIDEOUT: It stops the cravings for the drugs,

51:16 but it's also highly addictive.

51:17 You don't really get high from it, but you can't just take that for— if you

51:20 take it for a week and then stop taking it,

51:22 you'll have some mild withdrawals, but that's the way it's intended to be used.

51:25 The problem is people take it as a maintenance drug,

51:28 and when you're on that for months at a time,

51:30 getting off that is just as hard, if not harder than getting off the opioids.

51:34 ANDY GALPIN: I don't get the sense that you're

51:37 in running specifically has really been self-punishment per se.

51:43 KEN RIDEOUT: Not anymore.

51:44 Initially, it was a little bit.

51:46 ANDY GALPIN: It feels like it's more of a altered focus.

51:50 If I can pour myself into that.

51:52 Not only is there like physical time away from anxiety— KEN RIDEOUT: Myself.

51:57 ANDY GALPIN: Yourself, like it's hard to have thoughts when

52:00 you can't breathe— KEN RIDEOUT: That's right.

52:02 ANDY GALPIN: For six hours or whatever the case is.

52:05 But it also feels like it's a target.

52:08 And at some point you're winning races, you're still using drugs.

52:13 You're you've found international success in a sport

52:16 that you never started until you're, what, mid 30s, late 30s?

52:20 KEN RIDEOUT: Using drugs while I was running or having success.

52:23 ANDY GALPIN: Never.

52:23 KEN RIDEOUT: No, no, no.

52:24 I mean when I was using drugs initially I was like I would exercise,

52:28 but when I started competing in any capacity, I never like.

52:31 In 2010 when I got sober, I had done like a couple triathlons,

52:35 but just as an experiment, I didn't race competitively.

52:40 I just showed up and did a race without

52:42 knowing what I was doing with a road bike.

52:44 Once I got sober, then I started to focus on racing.

52:47 Not competitively, but I started to set goals for myself.

52:50 But never when I was using those drugs, I couldn't.

52:52 My heart rate would get too high.

52:53 It just like it would cause complete chaos.

52:57 It was not sustainable.

52:58 ANDY GALPIN: You're obviously a competitive person.

53:00 That's clear.

53:01 I don't think that you're the same type of competitive as other people, though.

53:07 Myself, as an example, I'm beyond obsessed with competing.

53:12 I actually really don't care that much about winning though.

53:16 Winning is very obviously a driver to you.

53:17 Like you, in fact, the first thought

53:19 in your head is very clearly if there's competition.

53:21 Like if I can't win this damn thing, like, well, then I'm going to win it.

53:24 That's the only option is you're winning.

53:26 I actually am weirdly not worried about winning very often.

53:30 I want to compete as hard as humanly possible,

53:34 but I'd winning or not is a little bit less relevant for me than it is for you.

53:39 Why have you— and it seems to be this way from your book,

53:43 why have you cared so much about the winning part?

53:45 KEN RIDEOUT: Well, I think that that's

53:47 a big part of my unresolved trauma and insecurities.

53:52 I have to be recognized to a certain extent, less so now than previously.

53:57 But I feel like because I had done the things I had done with the addiction,

54:02 I felt like I had wasted so much of my life

54:04 that I had so much time to make up for that.

54:06 In my mind, I was such a loser and I didn't

54:10 want to feel like that anymore that maybe the winning filled some

54:15 of that feeling like I was a winner made up for some

54:19 of those insecure feelings that led me to my addiction in my first place.

54:23 And like I said earlier, this isn't a tutorial on how you should live your life.

54:28 I don't want to feel— I want to be able to feel like

54:31 I can go and have fun and not have to try to win.

54:34 But there is something about my own flaws

54:37 and insecurities that for a long time was like, no, you have to win.

54:40 If you're not a winner, you're a loser which is not the right mindset.

54:44 ANDY GALPIN: Sure, I understand that there's also a huge superpower.

54:48 You've had a wild amount of personal success.

54:50 You got an incredible family,

54:52 financial success, professional success, all those things.

54:55 So wanting to win really bad is a good thing.

54:59 There's obviously limits to everything.

55:01 You and I share a trait, another set of traits actually,

55:04 that are oftentimes the same thing that I was

55:07 like obnoxiously ambitious from the time I can remember.

55:13 And borderline with that is I would say I will use the word confident,

55:16 other folks maybe would choose a different word,

55:19 but the ambition and confidence and arrogance is

55:21 like we're talking about first cousins in this thing.

55:25 And what I've come to realize is it's my estimation.

55:30 If I asked you personally what your single best human trait is,

55:33 you'd probably say toughness.

55:34 And reading your book, I don't think that is you wanted to win,

55:37 you wanted to be better.

55:38 And from the sounds of it,

55:41 other folks in your family maybe didn't want to be better.

55:44 And I don't know if you're any tougher or less tough than your family is,

55:49 but it seems the ambition part mattered.

55:53 I was fortunate, I've always felt fortunate that I was

55:56 born with that or as much as I can remember.

55:59 My brother was born with that, we're just born and wildly ambitious,

56:02 wanting to get out of the spot we're in.

56:04 Is that something you think people can cultivate?

56:07 Do you feel like you were just born because either

56:10 of your circumstances or your genetics that made you want to get better?

56:15 KEN RIDEOUT: I think that I was born with the ambition,

56:18 but I definitely taught myself toughness, I wasn't tough.

56:21 Like you read about in the book about getting bullied when I went to Alabama,

56:26 I was scared all the time when I was in high school.

56:28 I grew up in a violent place, man.

56:30 There was always fighting, was ever present.

56:32 And I didn't want to fight, I was scared.

56:34 I mean I would fight, but I wasn't— it was— it was like death defying.

56:39 And I took practical steps to address these things.

56:43 I went to the somerville boxing club and said,

56:45 I'll just have to learn how to box.

56:46 I don't like it.

56:47 I don't want to be here.

56:48 I wouldn't say I learned to like it,

56:50 I got comfortable with being scared and uncomfortable.

56:53 And I turned that into a superpower by being I'm going

56:57 to be so tough that no one will even want to test me,

57:00 and I'll never have to show them whether

57:02 I'm really tough or not, and it became true.

57:04 And I tell that to my kids, now, one of my sons,

57:07 my middle son, he's very— he's a very good athlete, but he's very timid.

57:12 He doesn't want anything to do with contact, even in basketball he's like,

57:16 I tell him, I go, I can see that you're pretending to play defense.

57:19 You're trying to not— you're looking like you're trying,

57:22 but are you letting a guy go right by you?

57:23 I go you got to get your body in front of, his body.

57:25 He might bump into you.

57:26 And he's like, yeah, I am scared.

57:28 I don't I don't want it.

57:29 I was like, buddy, I hear you,

57:31 but you're going to have to learn how to do something scared.

57:34 I'm scared, too.

57:35 But at some point, what I realize is that when

57:37 you start like the story in the book where the coach,

57:39 I was playing quarterback, he's like, dude,

57:41 you're just out there taking hits when you're running the ball.

57:44 Did it ever occur to you to deliver the hit and run hard?

57:47 And that was a huge turning point for me.

57:49 The next time I ran the ball,

57:50 I tried to run the guy over like I was going to kill him.

57:53 And what you realize is in life,

57:55 whatever it is, any conflict, any physical interaction,

57:58 if you're going to get hit, don't wait until someone hits you, do the hitting.

58:03 It's like I tell my kids,

58:05 if you think someone's going to fight with you and wants to hurt you,

58:08 this isn't a tickling contest.

58:09 You not in an arm wrestling match, if you think someone's going to hurt you,

58:12 don't wait for them to you— don't wait to confirm your suspicions.

58:16 Start firing punches.

58:18 And I tell the little one, Cameron,

58:19 what do you do when you throw— when you punch someone?

58:23 Punch him, again, exactly.

58:25 And then keep punching him.

58:26 And he's like— ANDY GALPIN: Oh, the wife, I'm sure loves that.

58:28 KEN RIDEOUT: Oh, she's like, why are you telling him that?

58:30 There's never been a fight in this town since, like the '70s.

58:32 We live in Brentwood, Tennessee.

58:34 I'm like, well, if we get in a fight,

58:35 I want to make sure we're on the right side of it.

58:37 And I think that also stems from my own

58:39 childhood and my own insecurities of being like it's like you want to impart all

58:44 of your experience on your kids and be listen, this is how you handle this.

58:48 And they're like, their brain can't even comprehend.

58:50 They're like, what are you talking about, dad?

58:52 But the littlest one, he's so full of confidence.

58:54 He's like, dad, I don't have to punch anyone like he wrestles.

58:56 He does jiu jitsu.

58:57 He's like, what good would it do for me to hurt someone there?

59:00 He goes, I know I can do whatever I want to them.

59:03 And I was like I said to my wife, I'm this kid is so mature.

59:07 He gets it.

59:08 He's just— he's such a nice kid.

59:10 But I think if any, if I'm proud of any

59:12 of the things that I've imparted on my kids,

59:14 and I do think this about myself as far as tough as I might come across,

59:17 I think I'm very empathetic, and I think Rob Moore and the people that know me

59:21 would tell you that it's like I'm a very sensitive person,

59:25 I genuinely care about people.

59:27 And I say in jest, I want to kill everyone.

59:30 Not physically, I don't want to hurt anyone.

59:32 And the minute the race is over, I'm like everyone's best friend.

59:35 I'm like a huge nerd.

59:36 I just want to— I like interacting with people.

59:40 But until this the pressure is released till after the race,

59:46 I'm just— I've done so much to get ready for a race.

59:50 I'm just like a pressure cooker.

59:53 I'm like everything is bottled up inside of me.

59:55 And I'm like dying to get let the pressure out of the race, stop the suffering,

1:00:00 get the suffering over with so that I can enjoy what I just did.

1:00:04 And that's the only way I know how to do it.

1:00:06 And again, this isn't for everyone.

1:00:08 I wouldn't suggest— for me I can't have one without the other.

1:00:12 I have— or I haven't figured out a way to show up,

1:00:16 be loosey goosey, everybody's pal.

1:00:19 Go out, empty the tank, and then be happy with the results if I didn't

1:00:23 go through the process that I have to go through.

1:00:25 ANDY GALPIN: You'll see this you

1:00:26 and I have been around enough professional fighters

1:00:29 that when they're backstage and they're about

1:00:31 to walk out— KEN RIDEOUT: Oh, my God.

1:00:33 ANDY GALPIN: They're not the same human you've ever known in your life.

1:00:36 And when you say, I really want to hope this lands for people,

1:00:40 when you hear these athletes say things, I was ready to die that day.

1:00:43 They're not that far off from that.

1:00:45 KEN RIDEOUT: No, I can tell you from my own experience, in my mind,

1:00:47 there is a part of me that's if you die, you die, and I don't want to die.

1:00:52 But I've also been suicidal as a result of my addiction,

1:00:54 and I know the pain that it caused me.

1:00:56 And I know that the pleasure that I get

1:00:58 from getting the most out of myself physically now,

1:01:00 and there is a huge component where I do feel like no one wants to die.

1:01:06 If you did, you would have— you would be dead if you wanted to die bad enough.

1:01:10 I don't want to die,

1:01:11 but I also don't want to leave with the feeling of having given

1:01:15 up because the first time I qualified to race in the Ironman in Hawaii,

1:01:20 I quit, just— I felt quit the race.

1:01:25 I just stopped on the run because it was getting difficult and at the time,

1:01:29 the most humiliating and embarrassing thing ever,

1:01:31 my wife's like who are you embarrassed in front of?

1:01:33 I said myself, I feel terrible, in that feeling and that the void that left

1:01:39 in my life changed the course of my endurance career.

1:01:42 Because once I felt that, and all I can

1:01:45 tell is like I tell people is unless you've experienced, you just don't know.

1:01:49 But the emptiness that I felt inside when I didn't get the most out of myself,

1:01:53 when I just took the easy way out,

1:01:54 was like the way I think of everything in life.

1:01:57 And I've given up so many times with addiction and everything else that I

1:02:01 would— I just didn't want to be that person, and it hurt me.

1:02:04 And I said, I will never feel this feeling again.

1:02:07 And to keep going when you want to stop,

1:02:10 when you're completely depleted, it takes a lot of toughness fitness.

1:02:15 And that's where that mentality all stemmed from is,

1:02:20 and those fighters know that feeling,

1:02:22 especially in fighting in MMA you know the minute

1:02:25 that guy is getting pummeled on the ground, he doesn't surrender.

1:02:29 But he like strategically lets the guy choke him.

1:02:33 He doesn't offer the resistance, you can even hear the announcers.

1:02:35 He's not defending this choke at all.

1:02:36 He's not doing the right things.

1:02:37 Oh, he's, oh, it's over.

1:02:39 He tapped or he got choked out.

1:02:40 And it's like your heart breaks because you could see what he's doing,

1:02:43 but he just refuses to say it out loud

1:02:46 but he's going to have to live with knowing that surrender.

1:02:49 And it's not fun, it's not easy.

1:02:51 But if you don't put yourself in those positions,

1:02:53 you'll never learn that feeling.

1:02:54 You'll never learn how to deal with that feeling more importantly,

1:02:57 how to avoid that in the future.

1:02:59 ANDY GALPIN: Today's episode is sponsored by LMNT.

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1:03:09 Hydration is critical to performance, both physical and mental,

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1:03:20 We also know that electrolytes are critical to proper hydration,

1:03:23 which I've been harping on for years.

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1:04:20 You had two things specifically in the book,

1:04:22 and I didn't write the exact quote down,

1:04:23 but one of them was to the effect of everyone can say they

1:04:27 have this idea that I'm going to win or I'm going to die trying.

1:04:30 Until they start to get to the die trying part,

1:04:33 or something— KEN RIDEOUT: That sounds good until you get to the dying part.

1:04:36 ANDY GALPIN: And then you also wrote down, and this is actually,

1:04:39 the direct quote that I've quit many races in my mind

1:04:43 and then forced my body to keep going until I broke the tape.

1:04:49 Walk me through that process.

1:04:51 Maybe take a marathon, take whichever one— KEN RIDEOUT:

1:04:54 I've got a good one for you.

1:04:55 ANDY GALPIN: When you say your mind broke?

1:04:57 And then what the hell— how do you get yourself past that?

1:05:00 KEN RIDEOUT: So I was running the Malibu half marathon.

1:05:03 And again, these things are all like minor little races, little experiences,

1:05:07 but the— but I'm sure a lot of people are going

1:05:09 to be able to relate to this, to the thought process,

1:05:12 to the event that takes place.

1:05:16 We take off in Malibu half marathon, I get out in front.

1:05:19 I think I won it the year before, and I'm leading— in the turnaround,

1:05:22 I'm leading by— it goes out in back 6 and 1/2 miles.

1:05:24 ANDY GALPIN: And what's your best half time?

1:05:26 KEN RIDEOUT: 110.

1:05:26 ANDY GALPIN: 110.

1:05:27 KEN RIDEOUT: It's 522 pace.

1:05:29 So I get to the halfway point at this race.

1:05:31 I think I ran 112.

1:05:32 It's a tough course, but funny thing is when I moved out of LA— when

1:05:36 I moved to Nashville from LA the year after I left, Rob Moore won the race.

1:05:41 So him and I dominated the race for so many years,

1:05:43 and he ran the same exact time.

1:05:45 ANDY GALPIN: Did he really?

1:05:45 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah.

1:05:46 And then one time I ran the Huntington

1:05:48 Beach marathon in 230 flat and got second.

1:05:51 And I think the year after I left, Rob went down ran 230 flat and won it.

1:05:55 So— ANDY GALPIN: That's embarrassing because you're a lot younger than Ken.

1:05:58 That's, that's pretty embarrassing.

1:06:00 KEN RIDEOUT: Rob's a savage.

1:06:01 He also did a sub 9 hour Ironman,

1:06:03 so he's definitely has nothing to be embarrassed.

1:06:05 ANDY GALPIN: They were telling me earlier,

1:06:07 I think something about the first time you guys met

1:06:10 and you were like not giving the business a little bit.

1:06:12 KEN RIDEOUT: I typically don't like anyone when people are,

1:06:14 hey, you want to train, you want to hang out?

1:06:16 And someone introduced us.

1:06:17 And very quickly, though, I was like, I love this guy.

1:06:19 ANDY GALPIN: Like you wrote hundreds miles or something, you're like, oh, OK.

1:06:22 KEN RIDEOUT: Let's get serious.

1:06:22 He's like into it.

1:06:23 He's like savage.

1:06:25 So I'm running the half marathon,

1:06:26 I get to the halfway and I probably have a minute lead,

1:06:30 which is pretty significant.

1:06:32 Between nine miles and 11 miles, I look back and the guy's on me.

1:06:36 And in my mind in that split second,

1:06:38 and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this.

1:06:40 I was, damn it, I'm going to get second place.

1:06:43 My God, I thought I was going to win this.

1:06:46 And in that split second,

1:06:47 when that guy didn't go by me and pass me like I was standing still,

1:06:50 which is what you should do when you catch someone in a distance race,

1:06:53 I had surrendered, I was, oh, I'm going to get second.

1:06:57 I'm already running as fast as I can.

1:06:59 And now the guy caught me, he's going to go past me.

1:07:01 He must be feeling good.

1:07:03 But in a split second,

1:07:04 I was like or he could have just emptied the tank from 9:00 to 11:00

1:07:08 to try to catch me because he caught me too fast from where he was.

1:07:11 And I was you know what?

1:07:14 Let me put it— let me step on the gas for a second.

1:07:16 So he ran next to me— and the funny thing is his it ended up being his dad,

1:07:20 but someone on the side of the road,

1:07:21 I didn't know who it was at the time ended up being his dad,

1:07:24 handed him a bottle of water, which you're not technically supposed to take

1:07:27 outside assistance just from the aid station, but it's a small race.

1:07:30 It's not a big deal.

1:07:32 So he takes the water and I'm running next to me,

1:07:33 and I was, hey, buddy, give me that water when you're done.

1:07:35 I've done this so many times in race of just

1:07:37 like barking at people and they're this guy's crazy.

1:07:40 I'm give me that water.

1:07:41 And he's, Oh, he starts trying to tell me what's in it.

1:07:43 And I'm, don't worry about it.

1:07:44 If it's good for you, it's good for me.

1:07:46 So I drink as much as I can and then throw it away.

1:07:48 And he took some, I took some and then threw it.

1:07:50 I don't know if he wanted more, but neither of us was getting any more.

1:07:53 So he caught me between 7:00 and 9:00, and 9:00 to 11:00 we're running together.

1:07:56 And then I was I can't get into a sprint with this kid.

1:07:58 He looked Prefontaine, he had little shorts, a little mustache, he was young.

1:08:02 At the time I was like maybe 50.

1:08:04 And so I was let me put in a little— No, I was like 48.

1:08:07 Let me put in a little surge and see if he goes with me,

1:08:09 and I put in a little surge, and I opened up a small gap,

1:08:12 and anyone who knows distance running knows once you get that gap,

1:08:15 you're all in, I don't have the gas tank to keep putting these surges in.

1:08:20 Like, I know how I'm feeling in the moment.

1:08:21 So I'm I put in a surge, he didn't go with me.

1:08:23 He didn't cover it.

1:08:24 So I was F it, I'm all in now at 11:00.

1:08:27 And I sprinted the last two miles as fast as I could.

1:08:30 I mean, I was hyperventilating, I was hurting.

1:08:34 And I got there, I beat him by 10 seconds.

1:08:36 And when he crossed the finish line and his dad came rolling over and they're,

1:08:39 oh, it was a great race.

1:08:41 And I'm talking to them, I'm listen, dude.

1:08:42 Because again, I'm, Hi.

1:08:44 When I finish the race, I'm like everyone's best friend.

1:08:46 I'm, hey, buddy.

1:08:47 Had you gone past me like you meant it,

1:08:49 I was dead, I had— mentally, I was tapped out.

1:08:52 I was I can't keep running like this.

1:08:54 The minute you didn't,

1:08:55 you gave me new life and you basically, sealed your own fate.

1:08:58 You had me.

1:08:59 You should have ran past me without thinking,

1:09:01 and I would have not chased you because I couldn't go anymore.

1:09:04 ANDY GALPIN: Because then literally the opposite happened.

1:09:05 KEN RIDEOUT: But when you didn't go past me,

1:09:07 I realized you were hurt as much as I was.

1:09:09 And I was, no one can suffer more than me.

1:09:11 And I took it upon myself to out suffer you.

1:09:14 And the dad was, are you listening to this?

1:09:16 You just cost yourself a win.

1:09:17 And I'm, so didn't mean to get you in trouble with your dad,

1:09:20 buddy, but yeah, you did.

1:09:21 You could have beat me.

1:09:22 ANDY GALPIN: When he passed you, you're at mile— you said 7?

1:09:25 Or— KEN RIDEOUT: Nine.

1:09:26 ANDY GALPIN: Nine.

1:09:26 KEN RIDEOUT: He didn't pass me, he caught me, but he was way behind.

1:09:29 ANDY GALPIN: What are you telling yourself when you're going,

1:09:32 maybe your confidence is back, but you said you're hurting.

1:09:36 We 10 out of 10, are we nine out of ten?

1:09:37 And then what are you telling yourself to not go sliding?

1:09:40 Because in this case,

1:09:41 if you slide down the smallest thing, I wouldn't even know.

1:09:45 If I was watching, I wouldn't be able to tell really?

1:09:48 And that would lose you the race.

1:09:49 What are you telling yourself,

1:09:51 what's your either internal talk or physical talk or what are you doing to go?

1:09:54 I have to run at this 520 pace, not this 524 pace or whatever the number,

1:09:59 which sounds like the exact same thing.

1:10:01 But how are you convincing yourself that 99%.

1:10:04 KEN RIDEOUT: At that point, I had done so much training with guys like Rob

1:10:07 and like bike riding and running and knowing someone's half wheeling you,

1:10:11 and they're just trying to stay ahead of you,

1:10:13 but they can't get away from you but they keep doing that.

1:10:16 There's so many little tactics going into it.

1:10:18 I'm running as close to him as I can get uncomfortably close.

1:10:22 We're just trying to unsettle him.

1:10:25 And I'm just— a bit like running a bit like a bully.

1:10:28 You're not doing anything dirty,

1:10:29 but you're also not trying to be handing him water at the aid stations,

1:10:33 which I— which I have done and would do.

1:10:35 I'm not a bad sport, but I'm also like a competitor.

1:10:38 ANDY GALPIN: You're trying to win.

1:10:39 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah.

1:10:40 And the whole time I'm evaluating everything he's doing,

1:10:42 I'm listening to his breath.

1:10:44 I'm trying to get any kind of sense of weakness,

1:10:46 I'm trying to see where he feels strong.

1:10:48 There's a million— it's just like your brain's like a supercomputer.

1:10:51 I'm analyzing every single thing.

1:10:53 I'm looking at how he's holding his hands.

1:10:54 I'm looking at his face where I can without being obvious.

1:10:58 Every step I'm is he step for step?

1:11:00 Is he falling back?

1:11:01 Is he coming forward?

1:11:02 And I could sense he was hanging on.

1:11:04 And it's a weird thing to say because I don't know how I would describe it other

1:11:07 than I just got this sense that he was hanging and I was let me just push.

1:11:12 And when he didn't cover that and didn't stay with me,

1:11:14 I'm, oh, if he could, he would have.

1:11:16 And I'm, OK, he can't do that.

1:11:18 Let me see if he can do this, and he couldn't.

1:11:20 But it wasn't like he just faded away and gave up.

1:11:23 He stayed within tens of me the whole time.

1:11:25 And I was go away because I want to have—

1:11:29 the moment where I run across the finish line, yes, I won and enjoy the sprint.

1:11:33 But you saw that finish of the LA

1:11:36 marathon where the guy's he's not looking back.

1:11:38 And I'm this guy's coming like a freight train,

1:11:40 and this guy's freaking falling apart like

1:11:42 dives across the line and still loses.

1:11:44 I'm, man, you got to keep your head on a swivel.

1:11:46 If nothing else, you could have at least tried to run

1:11:49 in front of the guy a little without breaking rules.

1:11:53 You see it in track,

1:11:54 the guy in the lead comes out and he starts to drift to the outside lane,

1:11:57 trying to force people to run.

1:11:59 It's racing, ANDY GALPIN: It's racing.

1:12:00 KEN RIDEOUT: There was no racing there.

1:12:00 It was just completely collapsed.

1:12:02 ANDY GALPIN: Are you trying to avoid losing?

1:12:04 Are you trying to win?

1:12:05 Are you trying to— KEN RIDEOUT: It's a good question.

1:12:07 ANDY GALPIN: Remind yourself of technical stuff with your own mechanics?

1:12:11 What is actually happening there?

1:12:12 KEN RIDEOUT: All of it, there is a part of me that's I do not want to lose this.

1:12:16 I said, when he caught me, I wasn't thinking I got to go with him.

1:12:18 I was thinking, Oh my God,

1:12:20 I can't believe I'm going to lose, I'm going to get second place.

1:12:22 And then I came back to my sense.

1:12:24 I'm what are you— literally, I'm talking to myself.

1:12:26 What the F are you talking about?

1:12:27 Don't you dare give up.

1:12:29 And I'm also focusing on mechanics, I'm how's my form?

1:12:32 Let me look at his form.

1:12:33 I'm analyzing his form and it's all happening at once.

1:12:37 It's like a car race.

1:12:38 You see a car race and you're there are so many things

1:12:40 going on in a car race for people that are into it.

1:12:43 You're coming into the corner, what line is he taking?

1:12:45 Am I behind him on my slipstream?

1:12:47 How I want to pass him so he can't then slipstream this.

1:12:51 It takes so much time to explain

1:12:53 this versus what's being calculated in your brain.

1:12:56 It's all being calculated.

1:12:57 It's like when I've heard Tom Brady describe when he drops back to throw a pass,

1:13:01 he's not like, OK, he's running this fast.

1:13:03 I gotta throw it here.

1:13:04 He just sees it and knows where to put it.

1:13:06 And it's just there.

1:13:07 It's like your brain is a supercomputer, it's calculating.

1:13:10 You don't have to tell me,

1:13:11 have you ever done one of those online speed reading things where it's read

1:13:15 this word and it's just the highlighted

1:13:17 word and it's going super fast, ridiculously, fast.

1:13:20 And before you know it, you're I just followed that whole story,

1:13:22 and I don't think I read one word.

1:13:24 It was you fill the gaps and your brain calculates, that's what's happening.

1:13:29 It's I'm not as much as bike racing,

1:13:32 but nothing is like bike racing in terms of calculating decisive moves.

1:13:37 That sport is so much more strategic than non bike racers.

1:13:40 No, it's crazy.

1:13:41 ANDY GALPIN: From the combat world, you and I have been around these people.

1:13:45 We've done it ourselves.

1:13:46 You'll hear all the times people saying things, oh, he saw that punch coming.

1:13:50 You don't.

1:13:51 If you look at the actual time and speed

1:13:54 and cognitive processing time with vision, you don't.

1:13:57 You do not have the time to see anything and react.

1:13:59 What you're looking at are patterns,

1:14:01 and you're packaging things and you're seeing, in fact,

1:14:05 you hear funny stories of all boxers and fighters who they're unskilled and they

1:14:11 come in and they're actually really successful

1:14:14 because they don't have the same tells.

1:14:16 KEN RIDEOUT: They're unpredictable.

1:14:18 ANDY GALPIN: They're unpredictable, but not even on purpose.

1:14:19 KEN RIDEOUT: And awkward.

1:14:20 ANDY GALPIN: That's the word you hear.

1:14:22 You're awkward, weird angles.

1:14:23 And what you're really hearing is the experienced fighter saying,

1:14:26 I don't recognize this intentionally,

1:14:28 but I'm used to seeing the hip move and the shoulder move then the head,

1:14:31 and then this comes.

1:14:32 And this guy doesn't have that same package.

1:14:34 All of a sudden, the hand comes in like you'll just hit guys all over the place.

1:14:39 They may not win, but you're just they get frustrating, they're awkward,

1:14:41 and they're of— KEN RIDEOUT: Nate Diaz was unpredictable like that.

1:14:45 ANDY GALPIN: You just— it's just not coming in the normal patterns.

1:14:47 And you're how are you doing this— this weird thing.

1:14:50 There was a lot of research, actually, a decade or so ago,

1:14:53 a little bit more than that on eyesight in professional baseball players.

1:14:57 KEN RIDEOUT: Yes.

1:14:58 ANDY GALPIN: And it's the same basic story.

1:15:00 What you're seeing there is the reason why left handed pitchers

1:15:02 are so much more difficult to deal with than right handed pitchers,

1:15:05 is nothing to do with really the angles,

1:15:06 but simple fact that you've got 90% of your processing

1:15:10 and packaging mental history is in that same slot.

1:15:14 And now, you have a very limited data set from the left side slot in this case,

1:15:19 and it's more challenging.

1:15:20 So you can't see the spin on a ball,

1:15:23 in baseball it's too fast, but you can remember it afterwards.

1:15:28 The same thing is, I'm sure true with racing,

1:15:30 you have this package of information that's coming in your brain,

1:15:33 that is the breathing, the temperature, the sweat, like all that stuff.

1:15:37 You know what?

1:15:38 And you probably couldn't go back and gone, oh, his elbow started to flare.

1:15:41 No, no.

1:15:41 But like I felt it, it's this packaging.

1:15:45 When we talk to younger athletes

1:15:46 and competitors and we say things like experience,

1:15:49 that is exactly what we're referring to.

1:15:51 When you have to have that set of stuff

1:15:53 come in where you just felt it different,

1:15:56 and it's impossible for the most part to simulate those things.

1:16:00 That was just a monologue for the record.

1:16:02 KEN RIDEOUT: No, I love it.

1:16:02 ANDY GALPIN: No question, but here's the actual question on that.

1:16:06 I think you called this earlier, Rob clean versus dirty fuel.

1:16:10 But I want to double dip on that because I think

1:16:13 the way you phrased it is you train like you can't possibly win.

1:16:19 And then you compete like you can't possibly lose.

1:16:23 What is that?

1:16:24 KEN RIDEOUT: When I'm training,

1:16:25 I'm training as much out of fear as aggressiveness.

1:16:28 I'm like, I'm going to have to race here in the coming weeks.

1:16:33 If I don't do this now, it's like not studying.

1:16:36 If I don't study, I am not going to be ready for the test.

1:16:39 And in a lot of ways I always tell my children,

1:16:42 pay me now or pay me later, but you will pay.

1:16:44 And that means if you don't pay now,

1:16:46 with the suffering and training and do the hard work now,

1:16:49 you'll pay me later with the performance that you don't get in the race,

1:16:52 and that sucks 10,000 times worse than having an uncomfortable one

1:16:57 hour training session at the track which is very, very difficult.

1:17:02 800 is hell on Earth.

1:17:04 Hell on Earth.

1:17:05 I can't stand doing them,

1:17:06 but there's nothing more magical than when you're doing

1:17:08 them and they're working and you're like, it's clicking.

1:17:10 It's hard.

1:17:11 Everyone you're hyperventilating, you don't think you can survive,

1:17:14 but next thing you're ticking them off and you're like, dude, I'm doing this.

1:17:17 And that to me is the true test of fitness when I'm getting ready for a race.

1:17:22 If I can do those 800 on the pace,

1:17:24 I'm looking for roughly two 30— two minute 30 seconds maybe a little bit faster.

1:17:28 When I can do 10 of those with two minute recovery,

1:17:31 I'm ready to throw down, and that's a huge test.

1:17:35 I think the actual workouts called the Yasso 800, you can Google it.

1:17:39 It's very famous assessment tool.

1:17:43 It basically says that whatever your time for those 10,

1:17:46 eight, hundred or whatever the official amount is, maybe it's 12.

1:17:50 Something like that, that should be your marathon time.

1:17:52 If you're doing them in two minutes 30 seconds,

1:17:53 you should be able to run a two hour 30 minute marathon.

1:17:56 But clean versus dirty is like the dirty fuel is I'm creating enemies,

1:18:02 I'm telling myself everyone's trying to kill me and I'm going to kill them,

1:18:06 and I'm not a victim, and I'm going to show you.

1:18:09 I'm trying to show all my naysayers and doubters,

1:18:12 even though I don't think I have any.

1:18:14 I mean I'm sure there's always going to people,

1:18:16 no matter what you do, that don't like you.

1:18:18 If you walk on water,

1:18:19 there's certain people that are going to tell you it's because you can't swim.

1:18:23 There are going to be people that just don't like you because you

1:18:26 represent everything that they don't stand

1:18:28 for, you're doing things they can't do.

1:18:30 It's human nature.

1:18:31 And I don't think I have a lot of them.

1:18:33 But in my mind, I create this whole

1:18:35 universe of people that are trying to get me.

1:18:37 And maybe it's from my childhood where I'm,

1:18:39 oh, they're going to try and kill me.

1:18:40 They're going to laugh at me if I don't win, which is completely irrational.

1:18:44 But again, the only opinion that matters to me in that moment is my own.

1:18:47 And that's how I motivate myself.

1:18:50 As I've gotten older now, I've started to find more clean energy that's racing

1:18:54 out of let's get the most out of ourselves, let's represent ourselves.

1:18:58 And more importantly, now my children and my family,

1:19:01 represent them with honor and integrity.

1:19:03 Go out and show everyone like what you stand for, empty the tank,

1:19:07 give your best effort, and handle yourself with class,

1:19:10 which I think that I've always done.

1:19:12 But that's how I think of like clean versus dirty fuel.

1:19:16 And obviously, I think it's better for your mindset

1:19:18 in general to have that to be training and racing in a positive state

1:19:22 of mind and racing for the right reasons,

1:19:25 and not trying to create enemies where there

1:19:27 are none because at the end of the day, it just creates like bad energy.

1:19:30 And a lot of times your brain doesn't understand the difference

1:19:33 between what someone's saying versus what you're saying to yourself.

1:19:36 And a lot of times we talk to ourselves in ways

1:19:38 that we would never talk to our friends or our even competitors.

1:19:43 The things that I say to myself are so harsh.

1:19:45 And I said this to my wife the other day, it's funny.

1:19:47 I was on the plane and I was texting with her and I was,

1:19:49 I'm trying to think of what it was.

1:19:51 I yelled at her about— Oh,

1:19:55 I came out and I was the car was crashed up a little and I'm like,

1:19:59 dude, did you smash into something with the car?

1:20:02 She's like, yeah.

1:20:03 I'm like, what were you not going to tell me like you didn't think?

1:20:06 And what I realized is because she's so close to me and basically

1:20:10 like part of me at this point and almost like an extension of me,

1:20:15 I catch myself talking to her the way I talk to myself.

1:20:18 And I was like, do you realize?

1:20:20 And I go I never thought about this before,

1:20:22 but I'm why would I talk to her like that?

1:20:25 Because that's the way I talk to myself.

1:20:26 Because that's part of all of my problems and all

1:20:30 of my flaws and unresolved trauma stems from this incredibly unrealistic,

1:20:36 harsh expectations of myself, where in a lot of ways I'm a failure and a loser.

1:20:42 At my worst, obviously,

1:20:43 I try not to live in this space and like in a constant shame storm.

1:20:47 But what I realize is when things like this happen and it involves my wife,

1:20:52 I verbally talk to her the way that I would talk

1:20:55 to myself because I'm almost viewing her as part of me.

1:20:58 If she let me down, I'm like, it's like I've let myself down again.

1:21:02 Like when I was in my addiction, like you stupid.

1:21:05 I would never say this to her, but to myself,

1:21:07 I'm you stupid bastard, how could you do this?

1:21:09 I had a nail stuck in my tire the last week,

1:21:12 and I said to her, hey, can you pick me up at the airport?

1:21:14 Do me a favor— She has an SUV, and I said, do me a favor.

1:21:18 Take my car.

1:21:18 I forgot that the nail was in there and the tire had gone down to seven.

1:21:22 So she's— I go out the car and she's there, and I get in and I go,

1:21:26 oh my God, the warning lights are on I go, fuck, I have a flat tire.

1:21:30 I'm you didn't see the warning light on?

1:21:31 So I basically start yelling at her, you don't see that I've— and then I'm like,

1:21:35 it's— you know what?

1:21:36 I said it's not your fault.

1:21:37 I am an idiot.

1:21:38 And for like 10 minutes,

1:21:39 I'm I can't believe I was this stupid trying to drive to a gas station.

1:21:42 I get there, it has seven pounds of pressure in it,

1:21:44 the tires basically on the rim.

1:21:46 And I'm like, I am so stupid.

1:21:48 And she's it was a mistake, let it go.

1:21:50 And that's when I realized I'm talking out loud

1:21:53 to you the way I'm talking internally to myself,

1:21:56 but I don't want that to be a reflection on you.

1:21:58 I said, I'm sorry.

1:21:59 I never thought about it like this.

1:22:02 But in reflecting on how I was venting to her, it

1:22:05 wasn't at her, I was venting at myself externally.

1:22:08 And I guess that's some insight into my good energy,

1:22:13 clean energy and dirty energy.

1:22:15 That was all my dirty energy of— But at the end of the day,

1:22:19 it was just a mistake.

1:22:20 I should have been able to just be like,

1:22:22 look, if the freaking tire is ruined, tires ruined.

1:22:25 At the end of the day, even if the rim is ruined, it's a little bit of money.

1:22:28 I mean, I'm far from wealthy, but I can afford to fix the tire if I have to.

1:22:32 ANDY GALPIN: I have personally never been a big like rah, rah guy.

1:22:36 I don't— I don't watch an Instagram video or a song and be great,

1:22:41 I'm going to go change— I just never

1:22:44 like it's feels cliché and I'm not really that.

1:22:48 That's never been my motivation,

1:22:50 though all it fine if that's anything that gets people

1:22:52 to do positive things like I'm all in for, who cares?

1:22:56 We're all have different personalities.

1:22:58 That's great.

1:22:59 But what I have found so inspirational about your journey

1:23:03 is just how candid and how raw it is?

1:23:07 It's the flaws, it's everything else there.

1:23:09 And I have found some useful things out of it personally.

1:23:13 And it's not that, again, it's not that big stuff.

1:23:18 But if people are listening or read the book and take that, that's great.

1:23:21 So I'm wondering if somebody who's listening and they're look,

1:23:25 I'm never going to go do an ultramarathon.

1:23:26 I don't have that extreme personality, so that part doesn't resonate with them.

1:23:30 But they maybe want to make a change or they're thinking that they might want.

1:23:34 Are there some baby steps that you

1:23:37 feel might be useful for that non-extreme personality?

1:23:41 I'm not going to go from zero to an ultramarathon.

1:23:43 I can't do this wild type of stuff.

1:23:46 What are some things that you would recommend for a step one path?

1:23:50 KEN RIDEOUT: Great question.

1:23:51 I wouldn't even suggest that you do an ultramarathon.

1:23:54 I wouldn't suggest— ANDY GALPIN:

1:23:55 I just want to make sure people aren't hearing that you're not recommending.

1:23:57 KEN RIDEOUT: I'm not even recommending you run races.

1:24:00 But what I am suggesting is that your health—

1:24:02 mental and physical health is your top responsibility in life.

1:24:05 It's more important than your children

1:24:07 and your marriage because without your health, you're useless to anyone.

1:24:11 Would you— I couldn't think of doing something

1:24:13 worse than neglecting my mental and physical health,

1:24:16 and having my wife and children have

1:24:18 to care for me before it's absolutely necessary.

1:24:21 You can get in an accident and something happens and you're married.

1:24:24 Your family will do anything to take care of you,

1:24:26 and I would expect and hope that would be the case.

1:24:29 But if you're out there smoking cigarettes, eating junk food, not exercising,

1:24:33 and putting yourself in a compromised health position,

1:24:36 and then you develop some ailment.

1:24:37 Now, your children are like having to worry about you.

1:24:40 Just like for a parent,

1:24:41 you're never going to be happier than your saddest child.

1:24:44 Your children most likely are never going to be happy if they

1:24:47 know that their parents are dealing

1:24:48 with health issues that were totally avoidable.

1:24:51 So I would say to anyone listening,

1:24:53 the first thing you need to do is A, take responsibility for yourself.

1:24:58 No one can tell you what you should eat, no one can tell you have to exercise.

1:25:01 But I can tell you that if you don't eat healthy and exercise regularly,

1:25:05 you're not going to live as long or as healthy a life.

1:25:07 Period.

1:25:08 It's just impossible.

1:25:09 Muscle is the organ of longevity.

1:25:11 If you don't have some, you're probably not going to live quite as long.

1:25:15 Maybe you're a freak of nature and you can live to 100,

1:25:17 but if you're taking care of yourself,

1:25:19 you're probably going to have a lot more healthy,

1:25:21 productive years, a lot more time to spend with your children.

1:25:25 And what I would suggest is that you start to institute some discipline,

1:25:29 meaning it doesn't have to be running.

1:25:31 How about this?

1:25:32 Just get out if you're not an exerciser at all,

1:25:34 how about you start with a one mile walk,

1:25:37 10 minute walk, and work your way into being

1:25:39 able to walk for an hour several times a week.

1:25:42 And if you can do that, maybe you add some weight

1:25:44 and do a rucking backpack and you rook for an hour.

1:25:49 But I just think that for the people that don't do that, they're

1:25:53 missing out on a key component in life because there's nothing to me,

1:25:57 there's such a great feeling that's available to everyone every day,

1:25:59 and that's the minute you're done doing something hard.

1:26:03 That's the key.

1:26:04 It's like I was telling you I don't

1:26:06 really get a runner's high while I'm running,

1:26:08 but I get a runner's high every single day the minute I stop running.

1:26:12 I walk up this little Hill to my house every day,

1:26:14 I've never been in a bad mood walking up that Hill, never.

1:26:17 Even when I'm like getting emails and texts when I stop running,

1:26:20 I look at my phone and I start walking up the Hill.

1:26:23 Even when there's negative news, I absorb it so much better.

1:26:26 If I wake up and I look at my phone for the first time,

1:26:29 and there's bad news, immediately, I can feel like a chemical shift in my body.

1:26:32 I'm like the frustration and the chemicals that get

1:26:36 released as the response to this negative news, it can throw me off kilter,

1:26:40 which is why I try not to look at the phone for the first hour when I wake up.

1:26:44 But when I get that same message after a run,

1:26:47 I'm let me just deal with this right now.

1:26:49 And typically, if it's something that needs to be addressed,

1:26:51 I just call them right now.

1:26:52 I'm like, I'm a big caller.

1:26:53 I'm not like I send some text,

1:26:55 but anyone who knows me knows I don't hesitate to just call someone.

1:26:59 Which is funny because then I see my phone ring

1:27:00 and I'm what lunatic just calls someone without texting for us?

1:27:04 But that's me.

1:27:05 And Rob can tell you I just like when I need to talk to him, I just call him.

1:27:08 ANDY GALPIN: I got you there.

1:27:09 You wake up in the morning and run is the first thing that you do?

1:27:13 KEN RIDEOUT: In a perfect world,

1:27:15 if I'm in my routine, I wake up, have some coffee,

1:27:17 deal with some work stuff, read the news,

1:27:20 like read the online news, check the sites that I check.

1:27:24 Look at stock stuff, a little bit of finance stuff.

1:27:27 And I'll try to watch a little bit of sports and I try to relax and get up,

1:27:31 and I like slow roll.

1:27:32 I do not get out of bed and just start running,

1:27:34 I need to slow roll and so I'll have some coffee in the morning.

1:27:37 I try to do the Huberman protocol and not drink it immediately.

1:27:41 Actually, the first thing I drink as soon as I wake

1:27:43 up is I have— and I don't have a partnership with LMNT,

1:27:46 but I drink elements in 16 ounces of water and I just chug it down.

1:27:49 It's not enjoyable, it's not fun.

1:27:51 I'm this is just necessity.

1:27:53 I need to rehydrate.

1:27:54 And then I will have some coffee in like 30 minutes later,

1:27:58 I'll just sit there, relax, and typically then the kids get up and I try

1:28:02 to get them wait until they go to school at like 8:30.

1:28:04 So I'll go through my morning routine, talk to my wife.

1:28:07 What's going on today?

1:28:08 Like just like a business, I just work from home.

1:28:10 So I'm like going through the morning routine,

1:28:12 and then I'll run like 8:30 to 10:00, come home.

1:28:15 Depending on what the phone call is like,

1:28:17 a lot of times I'll take calls while I'm running.

1:28:19 If it's someone— if it's with my own business, my own agency,

1:28:22 if I'm talking to Ben or one of my colleagues,

1:28:25 I'll talk to them on the phone if I'm not working out.

1:28:27 And meaning if I'm just doing 10 miles, that's like my maintenance run.

1:28:31 But when I'm training for a race,

1:28:32 I'm doing like workouts twice a week, a long run.

1:28:35 It's like focused.

1:28:37 And then I come home and I get into the work routine, start to get into my diet.

1:28:40 I usually don't run,

1:28:41 eat until after I run and have a very strict, regimented lifestyle.

1:28:47 And I've just found peace in the discipline, man.

1:28:50 And I heard Eliud Kipchoge say one time

1:28:52 that a man without discipline is a man with no freedom.

1:28:55 Because when you have discipline,

1:28:56 you're free to do what you want the rest of the day.

1:28:59 When you have no discipline, you're a prisoner to your emotions.

1:29:02 You feel lazy, so you take a nap.

1:29:04 You feel hungry, you eat a piece of pie.

1:29:08 That to me is in freedom.

1:29:10 Freedom is to know I'm doing what I know I need to do.

1:29:13 And then when that's all done, I can do the things that I want to do.

1:29:16 And to someone who doesn't have discipline, would say,

1:29:18 that sounds he's a prisoner to the workouts, I disagree.

1:29:21 ANDY GALPIN: You're maintenance 70 miles a week.

1:29:24 That's baseline, you're going to run 70 a week.

1:29:27 What's the highest?

1:29:28 You would get up to 100?

1:29:29 KEN RIDEOUT: 100 yeah, hundreds would be a lot for me.

1:29:31 Maybe a little bit more occasionally, but not much more.

1:29:34 ANDY GALPIN: Would you ever go to that middle ground 80, 85?

1:29:37 KEN RIDEOUT: Many, many times.

1:29:38 Like if I'm training for a marathon, it's typically 80 to 90.

1:29:41 That would be average.

1:29:43 ANDY GALPIN: So you're going to do your 10 every day.

1:29:45 And then occasionally, a few of those days you'll jump up.

1:29:47 KEN RIDEOUT: And then the other thing I

1:29:48 would just want to say is like I realized

1:29:50 that a lot that it would probably benefit me

1:29:52 more if I took a day off here and there,

1:29:55 or if I did like three miles, I know that.

1:29:57 But this again, this journey for me, anyone who knows me,

1:30:00 I've said this is as much about mental health as it is about physical.

1:30:03 I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone, this is not for anyone else.

1:30:07 You could never do this thing for other people.

1:30:10 This is not performative, I don't care what you think about my training.

1:30:14 I'm not looking for adulation or congratulations from online coaches.

1:30:19 And there's a lot of them, apparently,

1:30:20 there's a lot of people out there that know a lot about running.

1:30:23 They all want to tell me how I should do it,

1:30:24 but I have to stress I'm not trying to necessarily run as fast as I can,

1:30:29 I'm trying to be the best version of myself that I can be for my family,

1:30:33 and this is the only thing that I have found that worked.

1:30:36 When I left to my own devices, I found drugs.

1:30:39 I found like cheat codes, and I like realized that again,

1:30:42 the easy road never pays well.

1:30:45 And I'm not looking to do not get paid well for my work.

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1:32:20 Earlier in the conversation,

1:32:21 I told you I wanted to come back to your coaching part of it,

1:32:25 and I want to do that right now.

1:32:27 You've told me before, 10 miles a day is that's the day.

1:32:30 And if someone asks you, hey, can't you get your run in today?

1:32:33 It's like, well, if you see me alive, I got my run in.

1:32:36 It's just not a day, of course, you're not going to hit that in there.

1:32:39 And at some point that took you from presumably never running

1:32:44 a marathon to running a 2.5 hour marathon or something like that?

1:32:48 KEN RIDEOUT: I had run a marathon in my 20s when

1:32:51 I got to New York in three hours and 20 minutes,

1:32:55 just without very much training or knowing what I was doing.

1:32:58 So I had like I had some ability to run,

1:33:00 but I wasn't— I wouldn't consider myself a runner.

1:33:03 ANDY GALPIN: So actually I'll back up a little bit, that's interesting,

1:33:05 you played every sport in high school like as a kid.

1:33:08 You just played everything.

1:33:09 Hockey was your main jam.

1:33:10 Played college hockey— KEN RIDEOUT: And football.

1:33:12 ANDY GALPIN: And college football.

1:33:14 And then you ran that marathon something in your 20s.

1:33:19 And that was the first time you'd ever run over— KEN RIDEOUT: Any race.

1:33:22 ANDY GALPIN: Five miles?

1:33:23 KEN RIDEOUT: Obviously, I started training and I had done like

1:33:25 a handful of 18 mile runs in Central Park.

1:33:28 But again, I was running in cotton

1:33:30 gym shorts like mesh champion shorts, cotton t-shirt.

1:33:34 I was so chafed I didn't know about gels or anything else,

1:33:37 I was fantasizing about food.

1:33:40 When you're not in great shape, you're you get dehydrated quickly,

1:33:43 you're starved for calories, your body's not used to running fasted.

1:33:47 Now, I mean, I run 20 miles in the summer with no fuel,

1:33:50 no hydration and no calories easily.

1:33:51 ANDY GALPIN: I think that's interesting here is

1:33:54 you went from a very traditional sport background,

1:33:57 where little success played some college stuff, that's great.

1:34:00 And then your first marathon is 3.5 hours, which is good.

1:34:04 But that's pretty normal.

1:34:06 Most athletic young men are probably going to finish

1:34:10 their first marathon in the four hour range.

1:34:12 Plus or minus, and you obviously have some genetic endowments— KEN RIDEOUT:

1:34:16 I ran two or three after 320 and 330.

1:34:18 So just to give you context, it wasn't like, oh, my God, he's a natural.

1:34:21 ANDY GALPIN: That's what I'm getting at.

1:34:22 KEN RIDEOUT: I couldn't.

1:34:23 ANDY GALPIN: You're a little bit better than some of us,

1:34:25 but you weren't like a first marathon 245, anywhere in the stratosphere here.

1:34:29 KEN RIDEOUT: Not even close.

1:34:30 ANDY GALPIN: You didn't come from running cross country as a five-year-old.

1:34:33 You don't have— hockey's a very fatiguing sport.

1:34:37 It's a high anaerobic sport.

1:34:38 That's right.

1:34:39 It's anaerobic threshold.

1:34:40 This is nothing— it's not even running.

1:34:42 It's a different movement pattern entirely.

1:34:44 And football is, especially at quarterback, it's far from that thing.

1:34:48 I hope people are connecting with that a little

1:34:50 bit because that's a pretty normal thing.

1:34:53 And then you start packing on 70 week, and that gets you an hour off your time.

1:34:58 KEN RIDEOUT: I mean, I did that in 1996.

1:35:00 I don't think I ran a marathon again until 2012.

1:35:05 ANDY GALPIN: So that was— KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah, you're talking crazy.

1:35:08 I did that on a whim.

1:35:09 I trained for several months and ran a marathon.

1:35:12 And after that, I was that sucked, I don't want to ever do that again.

1:35:14 And then I didn't— ANDY GALPIN: You like running initially.

1:35:16 KEN RIDEOUT: No, I don't like running now.

1:35:18 I don't, I'm like I'm not like, yay!

1:35:20 I can't wait to go for a run.

1:35:22 I'm like, Oh my God, I gotta go run.

1:35:23 Just like I gotta go to school or I gotta go to work.

1:35:25 ANDY GALPIN: Gotta take out the trash.

1:35:26 KEN RIDEOUT: Yeah, that's it.

1:35:27 I'm yeah, what do you want to do today?

1:35:29 Let me just get this run over with.

1:35:30 I'll be right back.

1:35:31 I got involved with drugs, when I got sober in 2010 I started doing triathlon.

1:35:37 And through that, I was running.

1:35:38 And as I was running in triathlons, I'm my running is pretty good.

1:35:41 I wonder if I do some open races, and I did like a 130 marathon.

1:35:45 Then I did a 124 marathon, then I did a 117 marathon.

1:35:48 I was like, holy shit, I'm really getting faster.

1:35:50 Half sorry, half marathons.

1:35:52 And I was, wow, I'm getting pretty good.

1:35:54 And my wife's coming to the races, we don't have kids and it's fun.

1:35:57 And then we had our fourth child and I moved to LA in January 2016,

1:36:02 and I lived in the Palisades.

1:36:04 I met Rob, trained for— I had already qualified for the Ironman 2016 in Kona.

1:36:10 In 2015, right after I had my fourth son,

1:36:13 I did the Ironman Wisconsin and I finished like sixth or seventh overall.

1:36:18 I smashed it, I did like 9:30 ish and I ran fast.

1:36:23 I rode my bike under five hours and I did terrible in the swim.

1:36:26 But we had my first son and I was living in Westchester County,

1:36:29 so I'm driving back and forth to work in the city.

1:36:32 It's driving me crazy, mad anxiety, road rage every day.

1:36:36 So I just abandoned the swim.

1:36:38 I'm like what, F it, I'm going to either swim.

1:36:40 If I train obsessively, I can swim close to one hour.

1:36:43 If I do no swimming, I can swim in 110.

1:36:47 So I was like— ANDY GALPIN:

1:36:48 You're going to make up that difference in the run and the bike easily.

1:36:50 KEN RIDEOUT: Well, so I gave up the 10 minutes in the swim,

1:36:52 and I probably missed second place by 10 minutes.

1:36:54 And I was, damn it, if I swam, if I did this, if I did that, and then I was,

1:36:58 if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

1:37:00 Like what's the difference?

1:37:01 Like people always like, if I didn't go so hard on the bike,

1:37:04 I had the fastest bike split.

1:37:05 My run was shit, but I'm it's a triathlon.

1:37:08 It does not matter if you ran one mile fast

1:37:10 or you did the bike fast, or you had a great.

1:37:12 I don't care if you were the first out of the water,

1:37:14 you were last in the race after the run, so that's all that I care about.

1:37:18 If it was a swim race, you'd be the best.

1:37:20 But it's triathlon, you're the worst.

1:37:22 ANDY GALPIN: It's a swim, bike, run.

1:37:24 KEN RIDEOUT: Two and 1/2 mile swim in the ocean in Hawaii.

1:37:28 112 mile bike, which is so much harder than it sounds.

1:37:32 ANDY GALPIN: On pavement and— KEN RIDEOUT: Up to Harvey up this long ass climb

1:37:36 and just— I'm telling you like dangerous crosswinds.

1:37:40 So when you're coming back down this Hill at 40,

1:37:42 50 miles an hour and you're getting battered by crosswinds

1:37:44 on the bike with your arms extended on these arrow bars, and you get blown up.

1:37:49 People get blown right into the lava.

1:37:51 And newsflash, getting thrown into lava is like getting thrown into sandpaper.

1:37:56 They're just they look like they've been thrown through a meat grinder.

1:38:00 And it happens.

1:38:00 So you're like, holding on for dear life and you're trying to make up

1:38:03 for time because you've just been riding uphill for six miles, it's so hard.

1:38:06 And then you start the marathon around 1:00

1:38:08 or 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon in the Hawaiian heat.

1:38:11 And people, it was so hot on the run.

1:38:12 I'm like, yeah, no shit.

1:38:13 It's Hawaii in the middle of the day.

1:38:15 Of course, it was hot.

1:38:16 ANDY GALPIN: I appreciated that context in the book,

1:38:19 especially because having done the things I've done,

1:38:23 it's not the running, it's not the hiking,

1:38:27 it's not that stuff that is the suffering part.

1:38:29 It's the fact that you got the chapped lip.

1:38:31 It's the blister.

1:38:32 KEN RIDEOUT: That's right.

1:38:32 ANDY GALPIN: It's the fact,

1:38:33 you haven't had a normal bowel movement in 3 and 1/2 days, and you're just.

1:38:36 It's that stuff that grinds on you mentally and you're just like,

1:38:39 I just want clean socks.

1:38:41 Or I just want this blister to go away, it's driving me nuts all day.

1:38:46 It's not your muscle glycogen, it's not your pace.

1:38:48 It's none of those things.

1:38:50 It's that little discomfort stuff, and you don't plan for it.

1:38:53 You don't know what's coming.

1:38:54 It's the wind.

1:38:55 Like the thing I always say about hunting in the cold especially.

1:38:58 You put the temperature at 0, I don't care.

1:39:01 It's not that bad.

1:39:02 But if the wind is blowing in your face, oh my God,

1:39:05 that's the fastest way hunters are back in the truck.

1:39:08 KEN RIDEOUT: That's exactly right.

1:39:09 ANDY GALPIN: Like you're done.

1:39:10 You can't handle that wind in your face, it's just so horrible to be with.

1:39:13 KEN RIDEOUT: That's what I'm talking about, about the suffering.

1:39:16 It's like— ANDY GALPIN: It's so it's every second to— KEN RIDEOUT:

1:39:18 Physical suffering, of course, you're hurting, but it's the mental suffering.

1:39:21 It's like I so badly want to stop.

1:39:24 So just imagine in a marathon,

1:39:26 1,000 voices in your head telling you, dude, just stop.

1:39:29 This is stupid.

1:39:29 No one cares.

1:39:30 You're not going to win the Chicago Marathon, you loser.

1:39:32 No one cares, you're not even going to be in the top 100.

1:39:35 But there's that one other voice in the like corner like,

1:39:38 fuck you guys, we're winning this race.

1:39:40 Keep going.

1:39:40 Don't listen to these guys, they're losers.

1:39:42 Keep pushing.

1:39:43 And it's which crew do you listen to?

1:39:46 The loud like peanut gallery, or the one guy who's just desperate to win?

1:39:50 And that's literally what goes on?

1:39:52 It's like everyone's screaming to stop all systems are stop.

1:39:55 Hyperventilating, dehydrated, legs are sore, calf is killing you.

1:40:01 And then there's the one person who's like, do something different.

1:40:03 Be a champion.

1:40:04 Fight through this.

1:40:05 There's like a million stories of guys

1:40:07 that have overcome guys and girls that have

1:40:09 overcome incredible discomfort and displeasure to be

1:40:11 like to go on to do great things.

1:40:14 ANDY GALPIN: 49/51, that's how you wrote it in the book.

1:40:17 49% of you wants to quit.

1:40:20 I don't need it to be 99%, I just need 1% more says go, keep going.

1:40:27 Then the 1% that says stop going.

1:40:29 KEN RIDEOUT: That's right.

1:40:30 ANDY GALPIN: How do I build that 51%?

1:40:31 KEN RIDEOUT: You just have to make the decision that you want.

1:40:33 Do you want to win or lose in life?

1:40:35 And I can tell you this with certainty

1:40:37 because I've chosen the losing path many, many times.

1:40:40 And it was not fun.

1:40:42 And I was talking to Rich Rolle recently

1:40:44 and he was maybe you traded one addiction for another.

1:40:47 And I'm yeah, guess what?

1:40:48 One addiction had me suicidal and the other addiction

1:40:51 has me here talking to you about my new book.

1:40:53 I'll take this addiction, I wouldn't suggest anyone else does this.

1:40:56 I'm not— I haven't figured it out.

1:40:58 I'm not in a— ANDY GALPIN: Oh, this is survival mode.

1:41:00 KEN RIDEOUT: I'm not in a state of bliss.

1:41:02 I'm telling you, hey, I'm deeply flawed.

1:41:04 I did some cool things along the way,

1:41:06 but here are some things that you might be able to learn from.

1:41:08 But I wouldn't suggest that you want to be like me,

1:41:11 but I would say that could take some of the things

1:41:13 that I've done and some of the tricks and things that I've

1:41:17 been able to do and convince myself of you might be able

1:41:20 to take something from this and apply it to your own life,

1:41:23 and maybe you can become the best podcaster,

1:41:25 the best sports scientist, the best trainer.

1:41:28 You don't have to run, I don't— like I said, I don't like running.

1:41:31 I'm not— I'm not an advocate for, hey, come join the running community.

1:41:34 I'm trying to build a tribe.

1:41:35 I'm not.

1:41:36 I'm telling you running happened to be the vehicle

1:41:38 that I use to get to where I am today,

1:41:41 but it was just by happenstance that I was running a lot,

1:41:44 and I just started to get good at running.

1:41:46 But I was not trying to be like a winning marathons and be a great runner.

1:41:51 But I hope that people listening can apply that to whatever it is.

1:41:55 If you run a hedge fund, be the best hedge fund manager in the world.

1:41:58 Typically, the guy who tries the hardest,

1:42:00 puts in the most work, typically, will win.

1:42:03 And occasionally, you'll get people that are

1:42:05 like savants and they're maybe on the spectrum.

1:42:08 And they have some natural ability where you're like Elon,

1:42:11 where you're how does this guy's brain work like this?

1:42:13 And he'll tell you, like, I've heard Elon say, you don't want to be like me?

1:42:17 You think you want— people just want the prize,

1:42:20 they don't want what comes with it, and you can't get one without the other.

1:42:24 I've heard Kobe Bryant and Tom Brady talk about the process

1:42:27 that it took them to get the most out of themselves, and it doesn't sound fun.

1:42:31 That doesn't sound appealing.

1:42:32 I heard Tom Brady the other day say I was a psychopath,

1:42:34 Monday to Friday on the practice field, I was a lunatic.

1:42:37 I wasn't fun to be around.

1:42:38 All I wanted to do was win.

1:42:40 That doesn't sound like fun, but do you want seven Super Bowl rings?

1:42:43 I do, I'm willing to do that.

1:42:44 I can do that.

1:42:45 And most people think they can do that, and they want to do that.

1:42:48 They believe it.

1:42:50 But the minute the shit gets hard, you find out how badly you want it

1:42:54 because what I've done is available to everyone, I'm not a good runner.

1:42:57 I mean, I'm a decent runner, I'm a decent athlete, I know that.

1:43:00 But I wasn't— no one was looking for me in division one sports.

1:43:03 No one was seeking me out to sponsor me to run races.

1:43:07 I just tried harder than a lot of other people

1:43:09 in a sport that where you try— when you try hard, you're rewarded with results.

1:43:13 But I would argue that that's available in every profession in the world.

1:43:18 The person who's into AI coding or whatever

1:43:21 the technical term for AI engineering is,

1:43:24 the guy who spends the most time obsessing over

1:43:26 that is probably going to be like the guy

1:43:28 who gets those $100 million contracts to go

1:43:31 to ChatGPT or Anthropic or whatever the competitors are, XAI.

1:43:35 You studied more than everyone, you know more than everyone else.

1:43:38 He has $100 million, we need you.

1:43:39 ANDY GALPIN: One of the questions I've got the most in my career

1:43:43 is having dealt with and personally coached

1:43:46 some of the world's most decorated athletes, many of them actually.

1:43:50 What's different about them?

1:43:52 Having done this in baseball players

1:43:53 and football across all these different things,

1:43:55 one thing that is consistent across all these people,

1:43:59 when they get tougher, it matters.

1:44:02 Tough always translates.

1:44:04 Skill practice doesn't always translate more

1:44:07 diet— those things don't always translate.

1:44:09 They generally work for most people,

1:44:11 but always we've found when people try harder, it translates into more.

1:44:16 Which is the wildest thing to say.

1:44:18 But even the best in the world, try harder.

1:44:22 That is your quickest, most consistent path to getting better.

1:44:26 You call it the other side of hard, we call it try harder.

1:44:29 It will deliver.

1:44:30 It's the one consistent thing that I can say,

1:44:33 if you're going to roll the dice on something

1:44:36 and— just try it like more effort tends to win.

1:44:40 And there's the exceptions when that's like, hey, you're burying yourself.

1:44:43 And we got to back off and like we got to maybe pull some flying.

1:44:46 But let's start with figuring out what hard really is,

1:44:49 and let's get there first.

1:44:50 KEN RIDEOUT: Through all the training I've done, I've never felt,

1:44:52 oh my God, I've done too much this week.

1:44:54 I've never.

1:44:54 I mean, I feel like I'm exhausted, I'm destroyed.

1:44:57 But I never felt I can't get more out of myself in a weird way.

1:45:01 And it's a strange thing to say now reflecting because I'm trying

1:45:04 to think when was the time where I really needed a break?

1:45:07 I would say after those endure, after the Mongolia race,

1:45:10 I knew I needed like a couple of weeks to feel normal again.

1:45:13 I was run down.

1:45:15 But you're talking a week of like extreme racing every single day.

1:45:19 But to your point about try harder,

1:45:21 I tell my own kids, and I know that for my children.

1:45:24 I feel bad because I know it ain't easy being

1:45:26 my kids because they see the intensity that I bring to everything.

1:45:30 And it's like I get— I understand the reputation that I have.

1:45:33 ANDY GALPIN: That's not everyone's personality.

1:45:35 KEN RIDEOUT: But I try to convey to them,

1:45:36 I'm guys, I don't care if you're good, bad, or indifferent.

1:45:39 But the one thing I do care about is who's trying the best because I said,

1:45:43 if we're at football or soccer game, any sport, I said,

1:45:46 we can all sit here in the stands, and we can watch the game,

1:45:49 and all of us can say which kiddo there is a savage, who's trying the hardest.

1:45:53 He's not the best, but he's trying the hardest.

1:45:55 He cares, you can see the emotion.

1:45:57 He's I go, that's free for everyone.

1:46:00 Any of you can be that guy.

1:46:02 So anyone listening,

1:46:03 like you can be the guy in work who comes in a little bit early,

1:46:06 stays a little bit late,

1:46:07 and you can fake your way through that for a week or two.

1:46:10 But you can't be that savage every day, all day.

1:46:13 Someone is, but you can't force your way through

1:46:15 it unless you truly believe that that's who you are.

1:46:18 And in a lot of ways, that's what I've been able to do, is convince myself.

1:46:21 Because there's many days I don't believe anything about myself.

1:46:24 I'm not that tough, I'm just trying to get through the workout.

1:46:27 I'm just trying to get through the day.

1:46:29 But by showing up every day, and even if I don't believe it internally,

1:46:32 I'm that's the external— that's what I'm reflecting to the world.

1:46:37 And that's the other thing to know that the world is a mirror,

1:46:39 you get back exactly what you put out there.

1:46:42 So if you put out like, I'm tough,

1:46:43 I show up every day and you put it out there enough,

1:46:46 people will believe you and you'll start to reflect back to you.

1:46:48 Like in my case, where people are, wow, you're really tough guy.

1:46:52 I'm scared shitless all the time, but OK,

1:46:54 I'm tough, if you believe, I fooled you, but OK.

1:46:58 And so that's what I try to reflect to the kids is guys,

1:47:01 pretend that you're not scared.

1:47:04 Pretend that you're like you want to try the hardest.

1:47:06 At the end of the day, I don't care what you think.

1:47:08 I only care what you do.

1:47:09 And if you're doing it, if you're out there trying super hard,

1:47:12 everyone will see it and be I want that guy on my team.

1:47:15 At the same time, when they see you pretending

1:47:17 to do a tackle and the guy runs right past you,

1:47:19 everyone knows you didn't want that, and I that sucks.

1:47:22 It's much more rewarding to stick your helmet in there

1:47:24 and maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable and have,

1:47:27 get a hard hit than to feel that emptiness of being you didn't even try.

1:47:31 You let him run right by you.

1:47:33 I try not to tell them that, but I mean, everyone can see what happens,

1:47:36 and that's what I try to tell them it's like you're not fooling anyone.

1:47:39 ANDY GALPIN: I had a really big revelation

1:47:41 when I was working with a UFC fighter, and he had won seven or eight in a row.

1:47:46 He should have gotten a title fight, he was right there.

1:47:50 And just— he was bad luck, bad timing,

1:47:52 injuries, and those things go and whatever.

1:47:56 And soon after that his career was over.

1:47:58 Still as a young guy, still hyper competitive,

1:48:00 he just had some, honestly, super bad breaks.

1:48:03 Winning World championships hard, he's like really, really hard.

1:48:07 KEN RIDEOUT: Gets harder every year, guys are so competitive.

1:48:10 ANDY GALPIN: So the lesson I learned from him

1:48:12 was the last couple of fights in his career,

1:48:14 he would come back afterwards and we'd do these deep dive

1:48:17 analyzes after competitions because I need feedback and lots of stuff.

1:48:22 And he was like, man,

1:48:23 the hardest part was actually like getting hyped up for the fight.

1:48:28 And I'm like, whoa.

1:48:29 And this was a enormous red flag for him.

1:48:32 Some people are not that way, but he's just I just didn't care.

1:48:38 And I was like, oh, and he's the guy who's

1:48:41 in the back and he wants you to say the most vulgar things.

1:48:45 Probably, some of your self-talk would land like that's the stuff he

1:48:49 wants to hear about this is life and death and this stuff.

1:48:53 And he needed that mindset to get in there.

1:48:54 And he's like, I just like— I just couldn't, and I was like,

1:48:59 oh no, because I knew that was part of his process.

1:49:03 I don't know, three fights later, he's retired.

1:49:05 I was like, oh shit.

1:49:07 The revelation I had there was,

1:49:09 I don't think for a minute he ever got comfortable being uncomfortable.

1:49:16 I don't believe in that at all.

1:49:18 One of the other conversations I had with a guest this year, Dr.

1:49:22 Lenny Wiseman, the sports psychologist, he hates that saying.

1:49:25 I'm not fully convinced people ever get comfortable

1:49:27 with that because when you talk to these athletes, they're still scared.

1:49:31 They hate the thing.

1:49:32 You hate the race, you're scared every day you don't want to do it.

1:49:35 I'm not fully convinced people get more comfortable because in my life,

1:49:38 I'm like waiting to get comfortable with those things.

1:49:40 I'm it's never here,

1:49:41 what am I going to get this thing that I'm like, I'm comfortable.

1:49:43 But I think what people can develop and I would love

1:49:47 your thoughts here is just a willingness to do it anyways.

1:49:50 KEN RIDEOUT: That's a great point.

1:49:51 I'm not comfortable like, Oh, I'm so comfortable with the fact that I'm about

1:49:55 to feel like I could drop dead at every step.

1:49:57 It's not that it's being comfortable knowing

1:50:00 that it's coming and doing it anyway.

1:50:02 That's what I mean.

1:50:03 It's like you're comfortable with the fact that I know that I'm going

1:50:05 to wake up and wish to God that, the race would be canceled.

1:50:10 There'd be a fire downtown,

1:50:12 and no one can race because the fire or going walking into a boxing match.

1:50:16 When I was boxing for the New York Athletic Club,

1:50:18 I would be praying for the lights to go out.

1:50:20 Please, let there be a power outage like crazy thoughts, but you go anyway.

1:50:25 And what I mean by being comfortable with discomfort is like,

1:50:28 I'm comfortable, meaning I'm still going to go.

1:50:30 I have all these thoughts,

1:50:32 but I'm comfortable with the fact that I believe— I know I'm going anyway.

1:50:36 I'm comfortable knowing I'm still going, but I'm scared.

1:50:39 All these things are happening, all these thoughts are there for me, I'm scared.

1:50:43 I have all the insecurities,

1:50:44 but I have comfort inside knowing I'm still going to go,

1:50:47 but I'm going to go through this process.

1:50:49 So it's not that you're I'm so comfortable with the fact

1:50:52 that I might get knocked down in front of everyone, no.

1:50:54 But I'm comfortable knowing that I'm going

1:50:55 to show up no matter what happens here.

1:50:57 I'm going in, I'm getting in that ring,

1:50:59 and I'd be comfortable betting on myself to show up.

1:51:03 ANDY GALPIN: How do you get that comfort?

1:51:05 KEN RIDEOUT: Experience.

1:51:06 You have to put yourself out there.

1:51:08 It's that's why I can't understand why

1:51:10 people aren't involved in any competitive process.

1:51:13 If you're just going to work,

1:51:14 coming home and not putting yourself in those positions,

1:51:17 I just feel like you're missing a lot of important lessons in life.

1:51:22 Because what do you do when you're faced with real adversity?

1:51:25 My wife was diagnosed with cancer earlier last

1:51:27 year and that was man— it's hard not to get choked up to thinking about it now

1:51:32 because it was scared the shit out of me.

1:51:34 It scared the shit out of her.

1:51:35 It scared my children and I was like.

1:51:37 And we had a moment after like a week of several

1:51:40 days of crying and feeling like victims and feeling like,

1:51:43 you know, we have the death sentence that I literally said to her, like,

1:51:47 enough of the bullshit.

1:51:48 We got to suck it up and lean

1:51:50 into this and get ready like someone's coming to fight us,

1:51:53 and we can either get the shit kicked out of us or we can fight back.

1:51:56 That's how I looked at it, and I convinced she was like you know what?

1:51:59 You're right.

1:52:00 And my wife doesn't have the same, obviously, the same mindset as me.

1:52:03 She's a normal person and it mattered.

1:52:06 And thank God she had best case scenario.

1:52:09 She had her she had the mastectomy surgery.

1:52:12 It all went well.

1:52:12 She didn't have to do any like really

1:52:15 harsh chemo treatments or anything to that effect.

1:52:18 And now she's like on the road to recovery.

1:52:19 But the point is I believe, would we have gotten through it if I

1:52:23 wasn't doing the crazy shit that I was doing?

1:52:25 Probably, but in a lot of way it made it easier to cope

1:52:30 with and deal with because I honestly think that my mentality rubbed off on her.

1:52:35 She's tough.

1:52:35 Anyway I'm not trying to take credit for any of her toughness,

1:52:38 but that talk made us sense.

1:52:40 Like I'm not a rah, rah guy.

1:52:42 I don't you don't have to yell at me, you don't have to cheer me up.

1:52:44 I know there's nothing you can say to make me try harder than I'm about to try.

1:52:48 But what I would do is even with my kids,

1:52:50 I would like lean in and get close to my children.

1:52:52 I'm like, hey, when shit gets hard, show them who you really are.

1:52:56 Be tough out there.

1:52:58 And no matter what happens out here, we're going to leave, go get donuts.

1:53:01 I'm still going to love you and it doesn't matter,

1:53:03 but we're going to have much more fun if you try your hardest.

1:53:06 And it's like, all right, let's go.

1:53:08 And you see them and you see sometimes

1:53:10 they respond to it and sometimes they don't.

1:53:12 And they come back defeated, especially, like the little one who wrestles.

1:53:15 It's man, he gets pinned twice in his first like competitive tournament.

1:53:19 But I'm like, buddy, those guys have four years of wrestling experience.

1:53:23 You've been to one wrestling tournament in your life?

1:53:25 I'm like, you have to get comfortable with losing

1:53:29 to in the sense that don't view them as losses, learned something new.

1:53:33 Did you learn something when you did that?

1:53:34 And the guy, like, cradled you and rolled you over?

1:53:37 Did you— you see what you did wrong there?

1:53:39 You had him and then you did.

1:53:40 And he's like, Yeah, I was like, the Champions realized they can process that.

1:53:44 Everyone hates to lose, all the kids cry when they lose.

1:53:48 It's OK because it means that you care.

1:53:51 But what you can't do is let that define you to say, that's who I am.

1:53:55 I lost, I'm a loser.

1:53:56 You're not a loser.

1:53:57 The world champion has lost in there in tournaments.

1:54:00 When especially when they're kids, you have to go through this.

1:54:04 It's like jiu jitsu is the perfect example.

1:54:07 There isn't a person alive who goes to jiu

1:54:09 jitsu who didn't get tapped out multiple times every single

1:54:12 training session because how can you get better if

1:54:14 you don't train with guys that are better than you?

1:54:16 And when you train with guys that are better than you, they dominate you.

1:54:19 Ask anyone who's gone through any jiu jitsu and you're a white belt,

1:54:22 and you go with a guy who's a blue belt or a purple belt.

1:54:25 You can look at him and be like, I'm going to twist this nerd in a pretzel.

1:54:28 Look at this guy.

1:54:29 He's a geek.

1:54:30 And the next thing you know, he's got you in like a friggin' a twister.

1:54:33 And you're like, how am I stuck in this position?

1:54:36 But it's all technique and it's, and it's being calm.

1:54:39 Now, I think that jiu jitsu gives some of the best life lessons today.

1:54:42 And Cameron, my youngest, he goes to jiu jitsu and his little girls

1:54:45 there who are just their technique is so flawless.

1:54:49 And I'm like, and you— he goes there,

1:54:52 the girls get the better of him and he's like, he comes out.

1:54:55 I'm buddy, you did pretty good.

1:54:57 He's like, did you see I got that girl and I did this.

1:54:59 And I'm like thinking to myself,

1:55:01 I'm I love the fact that he realizes the gender doesn't matter.

1:55:05 The technique is there, it's for every— it's available to everyone to learn.

1:55:09 And when you understand staying calm

1:55:11 in a calm environment and it's like physical chess.

1:55:15 I'm when you did that, she basically reversed you.

1:55:18 It's not about being stronger than her because he would say to me,

1:55:21 he'd be like, dad, it's crazy.

1:55:22 I'm so much stronger than her.

1:55:23 I can pick her up, I can take her down, I can do anything I want.

1:55:26 And then the minute we get on the ground, she's on her back,

1:55:28 and the next thing you know, she's got me in a triangle.

1:55:31 I can't her— and I go, yeah, buddy, you have to learn what she's doing.

1:55:34 And this isn't about physical strength, it's about intelligence.

1:55:38 That's what I like about jiu jitsu is you can apply strength and intelligence,

1:55:42 and one doesn't beat the other.

1:55:44 It's like, which one's more important?

1:55:45 I don't know, but they're both critically important in jiu jitsu.

1:55:49 But for parents out there, I can't— of all the sports that my kids do,

1:55:53 jiu jitsu is the best for all kids because you can be the worst athlete,

1:55:59 the nerdy kid who just wants to be studious.

1:56:03 And you can apply that intelligence to that sport and be really good.

1:56:08 But the worst sport is wrestling.

1:56:10 Wrestling if you're not comfortable being uncomfortable,

1:56:14 wrestling is a hard sport.

1:56:15 It's hard to watch.

1:56:16 It's hard for the kids to do it.

1:56:17 It takes so much effort and man, it is painful when it doesn't go your way.

1:56:22 ANDY GALPIN: Oh, it's full peg the whole time.

1:56:24 KEN RIDEOUT: Oh, I it's so physically demanding.

1:56:26 ANDY GALPIN: You guys hate wrestlers.

1:56:27 You're like, well you just calm down.

1:56:29 KEN RIDEOUT: Exactly.

1:56:30 ANDY GALPIN: Just calm down.

1:56:31 KEN RIDEOUT: Calm down.

1:56:31 Let me put this move on you,

1:56:33 and the wrestlers just like sweating all over you just like a savage.