Daredevil: Born Again Official Podcast | Inside S2 E8 The Southern Cross

0:00 Hello and welcome to the Daredevil: Born Again Official Podcast.

0:03 I'm Charlie Cox, and I portray the character of Matt Murdock,

0:06 best known to the city of New York as Daredevil.

0:09 I'm back to talk about this season's major finale.

0:11 And I can confidently say everyone has a lot

0:14 of burning questions that need to get answered.

0:15 We're digging into the final episode of season two,

0:17 sharing behind-the-scenes stories,

0:19 and chatting with the cast and crew of Marvel Television's Daredevil:

0:21 Born Again now streaming on Disney+.

0:24 On today's show, we will break down the shocking events,

0:26 climactic battles, and character resolutions from episode eight.

0:29 Returning to the hot seat is Kingpin himself, Vincent D'Onofrio.

0:32 Afterwards, we're going to hear from showrunner,

0:34 Dario Scardapane and Marvel Studios head of Television,

0:36 Brad Winderbaum to wrap things up on this incredible season.

0:39 But first, it's time to recap all of the pivotal moments from episode eight.

0:43 And trust me, there are some major spoilers.

0:45 So if you haven't watched, stop.

0:46 And come back when you've seen it.

0:48 DARIO SCARDAPANE: In order to take down Fisk,

0:50 Matt had to do the unthinkable and reveal himself

0:53 as Daredevil to the courtroom and to the world,

0:56 which resulted in a mistrial and Karen Page being set free.

1:00 Now, as things are in this world, any punch on Fisk risks a counterpunch.

1:04 And Fisk shuts down the courtroom and declares a state of emergency.

1:08 This happens after Bullseye has pulled a fast one of his own

1:12 and now we have a lockdown courtroom with protesters outside.

1:16 As they swarm the courtroom and Matt and Fisk come

1:20 to their final blows a deal is made between Matt Murdock and Fisk,

1:24 a deal that has repercussions for the future.

1:27 It's over.

1:29 It's over for both of us.

1:31 As they go their separate ways,

1:33 we come back into what the world looks like after Fisk.

1:37 Matt and Karen have a brief moment of normal

1:40 life that lasts for about one poignant dinner.

1:43 After that, Matt is arrested for Daredevil's crimes.

1:47 In other parts of the city, Luke Cage has returned.

1:49 And he and Jessica Jones have a reunion at Alias Investigations.

1:54 Bullseye, proving that no good deed goes unrewarded,

1:58 heads off into the sunset with a new benefactor, our Mr.

2:02 Charles, obviously heading to do dirty works abroad.

2:04 For King and Country.

2:06 Radiohead takes us out.

2:07 And we see our villain and hero in two very different places.

2:10 Fisk is in exile, looking out over the ocean,

2:13 contemplating staying, contemplating going.

2:16 And Matt Murdock is in jail behind bars,

2:18 gathering his strength for season three.

2:21 [HEROIC MUSIC] The final episode is the culmination of the courtroom scene,

2:30 which is our version of a few good men,

2:33 that leads into us being barricaded in the courthouse in different rooms.

2:39 Well, there's the great reveal.

2:40 CHARLIE COX: Yeah, the great reveal.

2:41 Yeah.

2:42 And then we're in— That was a lot of fun.

2:44 Very cool.

2:45 Yeah.

2:45 That was a lot of fun.

2:46 Yeah, that was all you.

2:47 You f***ing did great.

2:48 It was a lot of fun.

2:49 VINCENT D'ONOFRIO: You pulled it off brilliantly.

2:50 It was amazing.

2:51 Thank you.

2:52 You and I both know who Daredevil is.

2:53 He's the man who knows exactly what happened on the Northern Star.

2:56 He knows exactly what happened in my apartment.

2:58 And he knows exactly who the real criminal in this courtroom is.

3:02 Isn't that right?

3:03 You are a fool.

3:04 [SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC] No, I'm not.

3:13 I am Daredevil.

3:14 [GASPS] JUDGE: Objection.

3:19 Objection.

3:20 Really, really good.

3:21 A lot of dialogue, a lot of transitions,

3:23 a lot of twists and turns in that whole deal there.

3:26 I just had to watch.

3:28 I thought it was awesome.

3:29 But it was the first time I had ever been in a courtroom scene with you.

3:32 Right, right, right, right, right.

3:33 So it was nice.

3:34 Yeah.

3:34 Yeah.

3:35 And then— Into the rotunda, and the storming the Capitol,

3:40 and— And then some kind of agreement resolved.

3:43 Yeah, exile.

3:45 Exile.

3:45 CHARLIE COX: Yeah.

3:46 And then my arrest.

3:47 Yeah.

3:48 And, my boot.

3:50 How did I get booted out of the city?

3:53 Yeah.

3:54 So those are the broad strokes.

3:55 The season is so intense.

3:57 And it escalates more than any other season.

4:00 Like, it really ramps up.

4:01 Because it starts quite small and insular.

4:04 And then it just kind of broadens and broadens and this.

4:06 Yeah, which sets us up to really have to pull

4:11 off that 208 episode in a big way because you know, what is there to do?

4:17 How do you resolve this?

4:19 And so to find that kind of gray area of resolve was tough.

4:24 What was really tough for the big

4:27 courtroom was— the courtroom sequence spans two episodes.

4:32 But particularly, 208, the final episode, the courtroom portion ends.

4:37 What was so tough about that from a writing

4:40 standpoint is Matt Murdock has to thread a very,

4:44 very tight needle here because he needs

4:48 to incriminate himself in order to incriminate you.

4:51 So he has to make that sacrifice.

4:53 In some sense, he's dying a death.

4:55 I mean, it's his alter ego.

4:56 He's giving up his identity as Daredevil, of course.

4:58 But in doing so, he's giving up his identity as a lawyer,

5:01 his identity as a blind man.

5:03 All of those things kind of are collateral damage with this, like, reveal.

5:09 And he's having to do so.

5:10 He's having to incriminate Fisk when Fisk is not on trial defending himself.

5:17 He is a witness because it's the trial of Karen Page.

5:20 And from a legal standpoint, obviously,

5:22 we always try to be as authentic as we can be, especially with the legal stuff.

5:28 And it's obviously in a comic book show.

5:29 It can be quite challenging.

5:30 It was tough.

5:31 CHARLIE COX: Yeah.

5:31 It was handled really well in the end.

5:33 You and I spoke a lot about that, the importance of getting that right.

5:37 Yeah.

5:38 It was a great way to end the season.

5:41 It was good to figure out a way to have these two dudes, like,

5:45 looking at each other and saying, I guess, there's no winner here kind of thing.

5:49 Yeah.

5:50 VINCENT D'ONOFRIO: You know?

5:51 Even though I had to be coaxed into it a little bit, my character.

5:54 But I think it was definitely the right way to end the season.

5:57 CHARLIE COX: Yeah.

5:58 It felt good.

5:59 CHARLIE COX: Yeah.

6:00 And then by the time we get to the rotunda— so

6:02 we've had these individual fight scenes that lead us to the rotunda.

6:07 The end of the arc of that brutality that you're

6:10 talking about is the scene up on the balcony.

6:13 Yes.

6:13 The location, the costumes, the lighting design,

6:17 just all of that, those were a couple of pinch me moments on that set.

6:21 Like, it looked so cool.

6:24 It felt like we were on a huge Blockbuster movie, you know?

6:27 It did.

6:28 Yeah.

6:29 And I think that from my character's point of view— I guess,

6:34 from my point of view, me playing the character,

6:37 I was very happy with the fact that the public throws me out because in the end,

6:43 they're the ones that suffered the most because I single-mindedly

6:47 manipulated New York City and all the people in it.

6:51 And so if anybody was going to be responsible for piling

6:54 up on me at the end would be the public.

6:58 And that final speech you give all bloodied up

7:02 on the balcony to the masses felt very Shakespearean, very Julius Caesar.

7:08 VINCENT D'ONOFRIO: Very cool.

7:09 Yeah.

7:10 I have done everything for you.

7:12 I've given you my heart and my soul.

7:15 Liar.

7:16 You're a liar.

7:19 I fought for you.

7:21 And I stand here now.

7:22 And I still fight.

7:25 No.

7:25 No.

7:26 Stop.

7:27 VINCENT D'ONOFRIO: It's amazing that over the years,

7:29 how comfortable we've become on set together.

7:33 I think the one thing that we've been so fortunate that we've

7:36 realized more and more every season that we've done over 12 years now,

7:41 whatever it is, is that in terms of what we

7:43 want this show to be and how the characters behave, we agree on everything.

7:48 Everything.

7:49 CHARLIE COX: And we're so lucky that we feel that way.

7:51 Oh, my god.

7:52 Yeah.

7:52 But I think also, the security that I feel on, like,

7:57 any given day when I know that your half of the show is happening,

8:01 that I'm completely confident in your half of the show.

8:05 CHARLIE COX: Likewise.

8:06 I will say this.

8:06 I think that some of the toughest stuff

8:09 that you've had is in the Born Again series.

8:12 And actually, some of it is masterful.

8:14 And I don't want to embarrass you,

8:15 but some of it is really masterful because pulling off this character,

8:20 Fisk, who comes with such baggage, you know, good baggage, but baggage,

8:27 being able to maintain that level

8:30 of expectation and deliciousness whilst having to deal

8:35 with all the kind of mayoral stuff that is not exciting that is,

8:40 at times, quite— it has to be, by its nature, quite expositional.

8:44 Fisk has to be restrained.

8:47 That could have been really boring.

8:49 Yeah.

8:49 CHARLIE COX: And it wasn't.

8:50 And it hasn't been.

8:51 Well, I appreciate you saying that.

8:54 I think that a lot of it has to do

8:57 with the playfulness of the cast on my side of the show.

9:02 I'm sure you can say the same for yours or similar.

9:04 But I think that when we're on set doing all that Gracie Mansion stuff,

9:10 you know, I happened to be with really playful actors.

9:14 And they're up for anything.

9:16 They're up for any crazy idea that I come up with.

9:20 Or if I reblock the scene and it's like— everybody's like, you know, hell yeah.

9:25 Let's do it.

9:26 Like, it's like, you need that kind of attitude, otherwise it doesn't work.

9:30 Yeah.

9:30 I don't respond well to threats.

9:32 That's not a threat.

9:35 Look, neither of us ever walk in anywhere

9:38 without knowing how we're going to get out.

9:40 It's adorable, but you can put your hands down.

9:43 You're right.

9:45 [GUNSHOT] Your shipment will be delivered when the time is right.

9:53 I would ask that you practice patience.

10:00 Next time you want to see me, call.

10:03 It's courteous.

10:04 It's funny.

10:05 It is true that— and probably if you watch the show,

10:07 you probably don't quite realize it.

10:09 But this show is in two halves.

10:10 Yeah.

10:11 CHARLIE COX: There's a whole half of the show,

10:13 sets, actors that I don't spend any time with.

10:16 I see them, occasionally pass each other in the corridor.

10:19 But that's it.

10:20 That's it.

10:21 I don't think I've had any scenes with Daniel Blake,

10:24 with Michael Gandolfini, I don't think.

10:25 Maybe— I can't think of it.

10:26 Maybe— I mean, he was in the ballroom in 108 or whatever.

10:30 I mean, I'm fortunate that I get to work with Deb sometimes.

10:32 CHARLIE COX: Yeah.

10:33 Yet I believe in order.

10:36 And you are a criminal.

10:38 Worse.

10:39 You're the sidekick of a deranged vigilante.

10:44 You, broken and deluded.

10:48 You abet his crimes.

10:51 For what?

10:52 Love?

10:54 Ha!

10:55 And Margarita went from one side of the show to the other side of the show.

11:00 So I was with her in every scene in season one.

11:03 And last season, I hadn't spent any time with her at all.

11:05 Yeah.

11:05 I mean, I didn't speak to her in season two.

11:07 VINCENT D'ONOFRIO: Oh, yeah.

11:08 That's crazy.

11:09 Yeah.

11:10 Well.

11:10 It feels like we're done.

11:11 Mr.

11:12 D'Onofrio, thank you for joining us on Diary

11:16 of a CEO from the Daredevil: Born Again Podcast.

11:21 VINCENT D'ONOFRIO: Thank you for having me.

11:23 Thank you for being the wonderful actor that you are.

11:25 CHARLIE COX: Likewise.

11:26 Right back at you.

11:27 To everybody watching and listening, from Vincent and I and the entire cast,

11:31 we know we have the best fans in the world, so thank you.

11:35 And we look forward to seeing you next season.

11:37 Let's go.

11:38 CHARLIE COX: All right.

11:39 Let's do it.

11:40 This is your so-called retribution.

11:47 It means nothing to me.

11:51 What about grace?

11:53 Hey, everybody.

11:53 I'm Brad Winderbaum, Head of Marvel Television.

11:56 And I'm back here again with my pal, Dario "Thrown Away Bread," a.k.a.

12:02 Scardapane.

12:03 That's what it means in Italian.

12:05 And he's our incredible showrunner on Daredevil: Born Again.

12:08 Today, we're digging into that electric finale looking back at the entire

12:13 season and looking ahead to season three as much as we can,

12:16 hopefully without any catastrophic spoilers.

12:19 Dario, welcome back to the show.

12:21 Wonderful to be here, Brad.

12:24 BRAD WINDERBAUM: It's a completely unhinged

12:26 episode in the greatest way possible.

12:28 Comes up running 100 miles an hour and does not let up.

12:31 [LAUGHTER] It's a good feeling.

12:33 One of my favorite payoffs is Puerto Rican superhero,

12:37 White Tiger finally coming into her own,

12:40 fully realized, taking on the mantle of her uncle and being White Tiger.

12:46 She's jumping off walls and kicking ass in that sequence.

12:48 DARIO SCARDAPANE: And what's great about that is it's a kind of deep callback.

12:52 You know, we saw the evolution of Angela slightly in season one.

12:57 We track it kind of sweetly, I guess, in a way, in season two.

13:01 And by the end, she's part of the city.

13:04 She's honoring her uncle's legacy.

13:07 There's a sequence we call the bodega scene

13:10 in episode two that really kicks off her story.

13:14 And this pays that off.

13:16 And it was cool.

13:16 And then you have the redemption of Cole North, which that's not done yet.

13:20 And you know, like, there's— what is fun about working

13:23 with this much cast is you can find things that are tiny

13:26 in this season that are going to be huge in next or tiny

13:29 in season one that are going to be huge in season two.

13:31 Yeah.

13:32 We know from that resolution montage that Matt's not just in jail,

13:36 he's in jail with Powell.

13:37 He's in jail with North.

13:39 He's in jail with— who knows how many people he's locked up?

13:41 DARIO SCARDAPANE: --that he's put away.

13:42 Because I remember coming to you.

13:43 And it kind of goes up the ladder.

13:45 I was talking to Sana.

13:47 And then I came in and I'm like, what about Matt revealing himself?

13:49 Yeah.

13:50 DARIO SCARDAPANE: How does the OK of a move that bold happen?

13:53 Because there was a lag between here's what we want to do and go for it.

13:58 Well, Kevin and Lou are amazing storytellers.

14:00 You don't build the MCU if you're not, like, some of the greatest of all time.

14:05 And very quickly, they saw that it was where the story needed to go.

14:11 And of course, like, we could point to the comics.

14:13 Right.

14:14 BRAD WINDERBAUM: So as soon as you can

14:15 point to the source material and show how it

14:16 plays out and all the stories that we're able

14:17 to be told after the reveal of the identity,

14:21 it becomes an easier argument to make.

14:22 But we're probably not going to do Purple Man doing

14:24 mass brainwashing of an entire city to buy it back.

14:27 Yeah.

14:28 We're not doing buybacks.

14:29 Like, if you're taking that step, it's like, all right.

14:32 Now everybody knows Matt's Daredevil.

14:33 Yeah.

14:33 Oh, yeah.

14:34 Oh, yeah.

14:35 Which changed the storytelling in season three in such a cool

14:39 way because having been in and around the Netflix show,

14:41 one of the things everybody was always talking about is,

14:44 how do we change things up next time?

14:46 How do we change things up next time?

14:48 And I feel that Marvel has been really good about not reiterating.

14:53 Like, season one is one thing.

14:54 Season two is another.

14:55 Season three is another.

14:56 And the type of storytelling and where all

14:59 the characters at is radically different every time.

15:02 Yeah.

15:03 But it is radically different every time,

15:05 but this idea of what is the meaning of Daredevil.

15:09 What does he represent?

15:10 That is true in season one, season two, and in season three.

15:14 In one little moment at the end of this episode,

15:17 there is an entire story yet to be told.

15:20 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Yeah, so let's talk about that.

15:22 You know, really exciting cameo right there at the finish line.

15:26 I'm comfortable saying it.

15:28 Luke Cage is going to be a big part of season three.

15:30 Luke Cage is a big part of season three.

15:32 And the funny thing this is giving away,

15:33 but actually kind of, like, hiding an Easter egg.

15:35 If you know these characters' history and you know some of the comic book runs,

15:40 you'll know what's happening.

15:41 Definitely.

15:42 We tipped our hand for season three incredibly at the end of season two.

15:47 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Big time.

15:48 So you know, the season wasn't without some costs.

15:52 We lost some characters who we loved along the way.

15:56 Can we talk a little about that?

15:58 There were two big deaths this season.

16:00 DARIO SCARDAPANE: Yes.

16:01 So the Vanessa one, that was kind of the cost of Foggy,

16:05 like, that parallel stuff.

16:07 We actually started talking about it in season one,

16:09 so we knew that each of— It was kind of inevitable because you had to bring Matt

16:14 and Fisk to the same emotional place or back

16:17 at that table by the end of the season.

16:19 DARIO SCARDAPANE: Their fight had to cost them personally.

16:22 But the one that is crazy is Michael, is Daniel Blake.

16:26 Yeah.

16:26 DARIO SCARDAPANE: We didn't write it that way.

16:28 And then how his story ended originally wasn't how it ended on screen.

16:34 Michael's character did not die in the original version.

16:38 But then we realized if the theme is everything has a cost and for him to do

16:44 the right thing for BB and walk away clean—

16:47 I think what happened it worked on the page.

16:51 We love Michael as an actor.

16:54 He's unbelievable.

16:55 It was a truly heartbreaking choice.

16:56 It was a heartbreaking choice.

16:57 But when we were all in the edit bay together and we

16:59 got to the end of that episode and that final conflict with Buck,

17:02 we all always knew it,

17:04 but it took us— we had to get all the way to the finish line to really do it.

17:09 It is the perfect example of kill your darlings.

17:11 Like, we were all holding on to something that was wrong,

17:15 for lack of a better word.

17:16 The Buck-Daniel relationship is not going to go anywhere else.

17:20 I think we were— we were in love.

17:22 DARIO SCARDAPANE: And that was what was so crazy about

17:23 when we called Michael to talk to him about it.

17:26 He was like, this isn't surprising me.

17:28 Like, he felt the same way because here's the thing.

17:30 We did not know in season one the chemistry

17:32 that was going to be between him and Arty.

17:35 Like, there was no way of knowing that.

17:37 You get a taste of it, but towards the end of the first season.

17:40 And I remember, like, we were in editorial.

17:42 And we kind of saw it.

17:43 DARIO SCARDAPANE: This is cool.

17:44 Yeah.

17:45 That's why I love television, because it's dynamic.

17:49 It's constantly evolving.

17:51 You're finding things inside of a season.

17:53 And then thankfully to Marvel again, since we're doing multiple seasons,

17:56 we're not doing just one limited, doing multiple seasons, you're like, oh, wait.

18:01 This pairing really works.

18:02 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Yeah.

18:03 So action— it's a Daredevil show.

18:05 Action tells so much of the story for us.

18:07 Phil Silvera is our commander in chief of stunts.

18:11 What are some of your favorite sequences in this season?

18:13 The fun thing about Phil is there is no we can't do that.

18:18 That does not— and the diner sequence with Bullseye and the rotunda,

18:23 the tale of two hallways, both of those were times that Phil was like, yes.

18:28 And it's a yes and because we write the action sequences to a point,

18:34 knowing that then that goes into Phil.

18:37 Then the pre-viz comes out.

18:38 And that's when the work really starts.

18:41 There's always notes.

18:42 But Phil, more than any other action director,

18:45 stunt coordinator I've worked with, he's telling a tale.

18:49 Oh, yeah.

18:49 DARIO SCARDAPANE: Like, there's a beginning,

18:51 middle, and end in those action sequences.

18:53 Give him enough time and enough money, you have an opera.

18:56 We never have enough time, never have enough money,

18:58 but he manages to get us more than I could imagine on the page.

19:02 And a lot of the time,

19:04 it's not the tail wagging the dog, but we know sequences we want.

19:07 And I love, like— every season,

19:09 I love that sooner or later, you'd be like, all right.

19:12 Where's our oner?

19:13 That's my big Phil story from season two,

19:15 the prison break episode where Matt and Swordsman free all the detainees.

19:20 That wasn't designed as a oner.

19:21 The clock was ticking on the sequence.

19:23 And we kind of realized this was the oner and Phil was game.

19:27 You carry, kind of, two heads with you at the same time.

19:29 There's the one that's like, oh, my god.

19:31 That's going to be so hard to do.

19:33 And then the other one, which is the one you want to listen to the most,

19:35 but it's going to be so cool if we pull it off.

19:38 And I remember you were looking at it.

19:40 You were looking at the pre-viz.

19:41 You kind of took it all in and was like, this could be the oner.

19:45 And it's a testimony to Phil because I don't think he batted an eye.

19:49 Like, he's like, all right.

19:51 And then he dives in.

19:53 And almost every action sequence I can remember, it's on the page.

19:57 We busted it out in the writers' room.

19:59 We've got— no surprise here.

20:02 These scripts go through many, many, many drafts.

20:04 So we're in the midpoint of the drafts.

20:07 And that's when we pull in Phil.

20:09 And then Phil's got his stuff.

20:11 And that changes the draft.

20:13 And then we kind of get to this point where it's, do we have the time?

20:16 Do we have the money?

20:17 Is this freaking possible?

20:19 And more so than anybody else I've worked

20:21 with, the edge of that with Phil is farther.

20:24 Like, pulling off that oner, insane.

20:26 Pulling off the rotunda, insane.

20:27 I love working with Phil.

20:28 I want to do it for the rest of my life.

20:30 I'm so grateful in a way that he came in.

20:34 He had— I mean, Phil had— I wouldn't call it a chip on his shoulder,

20:37 but Phil wanted to buy back Daredevil's action.

20:40 Oh, yeah.

20:41 Oh, yeah.

20:41 DARIO SCARDAPANE: That's where he started.

20:43 He came in ready.

20:44 DARIO SCARDAPANE: He did Daredevil.

20:45 Then he went on and did Deadpool.

20:46 He's kind of sprung out of Daredevil into an amazing career.

20:51 And getting him back, he came back with a vengeance.

20:54 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Oh, he sure— you can say that again.

20:56 Can we talk about the Bullseye diner scene, the cold open in the fourth episode?

20:59 Put your goddamn hands up.

21:01 Turn around now.

21:02 Let's go.

21:07 [SCREAMING] BRAD WINDERBAUM: It's, like, one of the coolest sequences.

21:10 I've made a lot of things at Marvel.

21:12 And that's, like, one of the coolest things I've ever been a part of.

21:14 Chantelle Wells, that was on the page.

21:17 The thing that— So good.

21:19 I took the writers' room out last night.

21:21 And we were kind of singing her praises

21:22 because the funny thing about Chantelle and the thing

21:25 about Bullseye is very few changes

21:27 from the very first draft of that diner sequence,

21:30 it's almost exactly on the page as it was on screen.

21:33 And she nails— she said last night— she's like,

21:36 there's something about Bullseye.

21:37 I just know how to write this guy.

21:39 And I'm like, yeah, you do.

21:39 Yeah.

21:40 DARIO SCARDAPANE: We've seen Bullseye bummed out.

21:42 We've seen Bullseye in crisis.

21:45 This is Bullseye stoked.

21:47 Like, Bullseye is feeling good about the world.

21:50 Much of his incarnation on the page in the comics is— Crazy.

21:55 BRAD WINDERBAUM: He's maniacal.

21:56 Yeah.

21:56 He's out of his head.

21:57 And he— in the original era of Daredevil, you see his origin.

22:03 And you see him— you kind of see him growing,

22:06 but he's not fully realized in that series.

22:08 I don't think he's fully realized until that diner scene.

22:11 And he's actually way more complex character than he is in the comics.

22:16 When he's talking to the guy with the dog, he has an amazing line.

22:21 Don't worry.

22:22 [SCREAMING] I'm one of the good guys.

22:28 And this comes out with Wilson a lot of the time too.

22:31 Wilson is not playing Bullseye as a villain.

22:34 And Wilson will never play Bullseye as a villain.

22:37 For Wilson, Bullseye is somebody who's got a very specific point

22:43 of view on the world that comes from a lot of pain.

22:47 And that specific view of the world, people might disagree with.

22:50 Now, you take that guy and basically give him an opportunity and say, hold on.

22:54 They're hunting vigilantes.

22:56 In his mind, I'm a vigilante.

22:58 I'm on the side of the angels now, so I'm going to go wreak havoc.

23:04 as a good guy.

23:05 And it makes— in his mind, it makes perfect sense.

23:07 And you know, so much of this season is about redemption.

23:11 Can we talk about the flashback episode,

23:14 which is one of the coolest things the show has ever done?

23:17 Not only does it bring you back to Foggy Nelson and frames

23:21 Foggy Nelson as the protagonist of the episode, but we also— we,

23:26 in such an amazing way,

23:28 are really going back to the look and feel of the original

23:31 show when Foggy was alive in a way that's really clever.

23:34 There was a couple of things that happened in that episode.

23:37 And again, I got to give credit where credit's due.

23:40 Jesse Wigutow is one of our killers in the room.

23:43 The guy can write with a capital W.

23:45 We knew that we wanted to bring back

23:47 Foggy in a way that wasn't just fan service.

23:49 It was the way that Foggy has to matter to the story.

23:52 And I remember it was— I think it was you and Kevin who were like,

23:54 what is the one to one?

23:56 What Foggy says and does, it affects Matt now.

24:01 And very quickly, it came into Foggy gives Matt permission to give grace

24:07 to and redemption to the man who killed him, which is like, OK.

24:10 And that's such a Daredevil theme.

24:12 It's the only way it could happen.

24:14 And that is so very Daredevil in the kind of large tablet like.

24:18 So we have these kind of crazy journeys, where we go back in both camera.

24:25 We're doing the look and— We're back in 16-9.

24:31 [INTERPOSING VOICES] [INTERPOSING VOICES] The color palette is similar.

24:36 And then you have that with this very blue and red

24:40 journey through the underworld ending up in Clinton Church and that redemption.

24:46 And Foggy's memory as being the kind of soul I ever knew,

24:50 he was better than all of us.

24:51 Every quote you want to do about Foggy bleeding

24:54 into this new version of Daredevil and Bullseye's relationship.

24:59 I was really surprised at how that tracked.

25:03 It was a long road to get there.

25:04 It sure was.

25:05 I mean, because it's not a simple task.

25:07 No.

25:08 So it was on the page.

25:09 Then it was in the performances.

25:11 And then it was in the editorial.

25:12 But like, everyone really had to be on their A game to get— like you said,

25:16 to get those two stories to really line up

25:18 on a razor's edge right at the right moment.

25:20 And truth be told, it took a long time.

25:22 Like, it took a long time on the page.

25:24 We didn't know what we had when we shot it.

25:27 Let's just be completely honest.

25:28 We didn't know.

25:29 So Dario, you and I are both long time Marvel fans.

25:32 We grew up with this stuff.

25:33 Do you remember, like, the moment you were brought into the Marvel Universe?

25:36 Well, so there's kind of, like,

25:38 this— it's been a really weird— and one of those things

25:41 that you look back on a career and go, whoa.

25:44 So like a kid, I always— Spider-Man was super cool.

25:49 I read Spider-Man comics.

25:50 I was a comic kid.

25:53 And then when I was in college over in Eagle Rock

25:57 in the '80s— that's how old I am— I discovered Frank Miller.

26:03 And really, the gateway drug for me— I was an English major.

26:08 And it was at the time that they were starting

26:10 to look at comic books not as pulp, but as lit.

26:13 You know, Maus had come out.

26:15 Art Spiegelman had done that.

26:16 You know, Frank had done something with another character.

26:19 And then Frank got his hands on daredevil

26:23 and that— and the crazy thing is— and this is— I'm not lying.

26:28 My excitement and interest in Marvel came vis-a-vis Daredevil.

26:35 And then years later, I'm walking into the Marvel TV, the other iteration.

26:42 And I'm sitting there with Karim Zreik and Jeph Loeb.

26:45 And they've got— they'd already done the Daredevil.

26:48 They had started this.

26:50 But it was in Daredevil one and season two.

26:53 And they have photos on the wall.

26:56 And there's Electro.

26:57 There's Iron Fist.

26:58 There's Jon.

27:00 And I'm like, hold on, guys.

27:02 Are we talking about a Punisher spin off here?

27:04 And then I was all in.

27:06 And then to get a chance to come back into this, it really— I mean,

27:11 I've been geeking out on this stuff for about 30 years.

27:14 And then I was wondering— because it seems like when we talk, you,

27:17 me, and Sana in particular— but you're like a Marvel lifer as well,

27:21 like, because you've been doing— you've been with them— BRAD WINDERBAUM:

27:24 I mean, I grew up here, really.

27:25 I mean, I— You were into comics as a kid.

27:28 BRAD WINDERBAUM: I was into comics as a kid.

27:30 The first comic I ever bought was Revenge of the Sinister

27:33 Six by Erik Larsen at Wizard Cards and Comics in Nanuet,

27:38 New York, where— I grew up in Rockland County.

27:41 And it was— Wizard was a really important

27:44 comic shop because it published a magazine called Wizard,

27:47 which was like our lifeblood at the time.

27:49 We'd read it all the— So that was, like,

27:51 the rundown of what issues came out, what's going on?

27:54 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Totally.

27:55 And that it, man.

27:58 I've never heard that story.

27:59 But I was a '90s kid, so I was like— I was like, Liefeld, McFarlane, Jim Lee.

28:05 Like, all the artists that, like, left and formed Image,

28:09 those that was my beginning into kinda— But it was through that, that— you know.

28:14 And then how did you end up at Marvel?

28:15 I ended up at Marvel because I was

28:18 a PA on a television show that Jon Favreau directed.

28:22 And I found out he was going to do Iron Man.

28:24 And I just tortured his assistant.

28:26 You've been on that early?

28:27 Like, you've been on, like, the beginning of the Feige era?

28:29 Yeah.

28:30 I didn't know that.

28:30 My first day at— so I got brought

28:33 into the Iron Man office as a production assistant.

28:36 It was just me, Jon, his assistant, and the accountant,

28:42 and Louis D'Esposito, who is the line producer EP, and his assistant.

28:48 And I'm just getting their coffees and doing their photocopies.

28:50 And on the first day there, I meet another assistant named Stephen Broussard,

28:55 and another assistant named Jeremy Latcham,

28:58 and this young executive who they just made a VP named Kevin Feige.

29:02 And we were just kids, you know?

29:04 And it was, you know— I mean, I was so happy to be there.

29:10 It was like a dream come true already.

29:12 I had no idea where it was going to lead.

29:14 DARIO SCARDAPANE: We get a lot of feedback from the fans,

29:16 but the thing that's always funny— and I— it sounds so easy to say.

29:21 We're fans.

29:22 It's kind of how it started.

29:24 Like, Daredevil matters to me for a lot of different reasons.

29:29 It's a type of storytelling I like.

29:31 I'm a lapsed Catholic.

29:32 It's like, you know, when I meet and talk to Frank Miller,

29:36 he feels the same way.

29:38 When I meet and talk to Joe Quesada, he feels the same way.

29:40 When I meet and talk to Charles Soule— and you've got that same vibe.

29:44 Like, I have never— in the Marvel institution,

29:47 it is rare to meet somebody who's just doing a job.

29:50 Like, you don't see that.

29:52 BRAD WINDERBAUM: So I think the reason for that— I

29:54 have a theory behind that because I think you're totally right.

29:56 Kevin designed the producer model, the studio,

30:00 on the editor model of the comics.

30:04 So the Marvel editorial has always been like— it starts with Stan Lee.

30:09 And it's a tradition of the editors bringing in the talent

30:13 and ushering these massive franchises into different people's hands,

30:17 so that they could lens the characters

30:20 differently over these long periods of time.

30:22 And it's similar the way we make movies.

30:24 I mean, if you look at our films each time there's a new creator,

30:30 look at our television shows, each time there's a new creator,

30:32 you can see our wackadoo universe kind of through a different set of eyes.

30:36 And that's really something we try to do.

30:38 [HEROIC MUSIC] Do you want a truth?

30:42 Sure.

30:43 Please use one word to describe Matthew Lillard.

30:46 [LAUGHTER] Jessica.

30:49 Wait.

30:50 Hold— hold— hold— hold on.

30:51 Before you choose violence— You sent your assholes to my house.

30:55 That was a mistake.

30:56 They were just supposed to tell you to back off.

30:57 --with my daughter there.

30:58 I would never hurt you.

31:00 I love children.

31:01 Oh, my gosh.

31:02 BRAD WINDERBAUM: That's a great question.

31:03 He's a longtime member of your D&D campaigns.

31:04 Yeah, we played D&D together.

31:08 Entertaining.

31:09 Entertaining.

31:10 He sure is.

31:11 He sure is.

31:12 He is a dear friend.

31:13 So now Daredevil.

31:15 BRAD WINDERBAUM: I'm not afraid.

31:16 OK.

31:16 Which of Daredevil's superpowers would you like in your own life?

31:20 Oh, man.

31:22 Would you want to be able to hear everything?

31:24 Well, I think that the guy's, like, an athletic, you know, phenomenon.

31:32 He's doing things that a human being just shouldn't be able to do.

31:34 That would be pretty cool.

31:36 It would not suck to be in that good of shape.

31:37 BRAD WINDERBAUM: It wouldn't.

31:38 I mean, no it wouldn't.

31:39 No it wouldn't.

31:40 I mean, I am.

31:41 I'm keeping my shirt on just cause like— They use you as his body double.

31:44 I forgot that.

31:45 Yeah.

31:45 It's true.

31:46 It's a little known fact.

31:47 Little known fun fact.

31:48 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Also was Chris Hemsworth's body double.

31:50 OK, let's ask you a Daredevil question here.

31:53 Two MCU characters that have never interacted that you'd love to connect.

31:58 You mean never interacted in the comics or never interacted on screen?

32:01 Let's say on screen.

32:02 Oh.

32:03 Bullseye versus Punisher.

32:04 Oh, yeah.

32:05 DARIO SCARDAPANE: Has to be done.

32:06 Someday.

32:07 Someday.

32:08 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Someday.

32:09 Someday.

32:09 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Come on, film gods, television gods.

32:11 Can we do this?

32:12 Please, shine down upon us.

32:15 Can we do this next time with cocktails?

32:18 Turns out we don't need them.

32:19 DARIO SCARDAPANE: We don't?

32:19 Oh, OK.

32:20 Wow.

32:21 I have to go write a penultimate episode of a season of Daredevil.

32:25 I know.

32:25 You got some work to do, Dario.

32:26 DARIO SCARDAPANE: I know.

32:27 I think I might actually be a couple days late.

32:28 I'm sorry.

32:29 BRAD WINDERBAUM: It's OK.

32:30 It's OK.

32:30 We'll get there.

32:31 We'll get there.

32:31 I'm so excited for the audience to see what's in store in season three.

32:34 It feels like a very worthy successor to the awesome second season.

32:38 DARIO SCARDAPANE: You know, this is the point in time where

32:40 I'm equal parts totally stoked and completely terrified.

32:43 And that's how I know it's the right place— That's your sweet spot.

32:46 DARIO SCARDAPANE: It is because then the terror goes away.

32:49 And then by the time we're doing this next year, it's all stoke.

32:53 I can't wait for you to see the seventh episode of the third season.

32:56 Dario, in all sincerity, you're an amazing partner.

32:58 I love having you around the Marvel offices.

33:01 Every time you send me a script, I can't wait to read it.

33:04 And I am so grateful every day I get to be working on this show with you.

33:08 And the fact that I get to see it before anybody else is the best.

33:12 This has been— you know, it is the end of Casablanca.

33:15 This has been quite a beautiful creative friendship.

33:18 And I'm looking forward to doing it all over again in about two weeks.

33:25 Hell yeah, brother.

33:26 Awesome.

33:26 DARIO SCARDAPANE: All right.

33:27 BRAD WINDERBAUM: Thanks, everybody, for watching and listening.

33:28 And an extra shout out to those of you who have been with us all season.

33:31 Marvel is nothing without our passionate fans of which

33:35 Dario and I are two of two among your ranks.

33:38 And we are eternally, eternally grateful.

33:41 See you next season.

33:42 I'm so excited.

33:44 Podcast wrapped.

33:46 That is podcast wrapped.

33:47 Podcast done.

33:49 CHARLIE COX: Watch and listen to the Daredevil: Born Again Official Podcast,

33:52 available on Disney+ and wherever you get your podcasts.

33:54 And stream season two of Marvel Television's Daredevil: Born Again on Disney+.