Tommie Runz | Keep Hammering Collective | Episode 191

0:00 Every step I take, I move my truth.

0:02 Every time they tell me stop by you.

0:04 Every comment, hate that makes my fuel.

0:06 Gather up my energy and boom, I hear them talking,

0:08 saying the way that I move is so reckless.

0:10 That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with.

0:12 Give my blood so I am relentless.

0:15 All right.

0:16 This is a Keep Hammering Collective.

0:17 I'm with Tommy Runs.

0:19 Dude, you're here in Eugene.

0:21 This is This is cool.

0:22 I know you've been here before, but I didn't know that.

0:24 So, I'm pumped to sit down with you and this is great.

0:29 Thank you.

0:30 Thank I appreciate it, man.

0:31 Eugene's like a I was going to say a second home,

0:33 but it's like maybe like a fifth or sixth home, but I like it here.

0:36 Well, you're welcome here.

0:37 Um, so Tommy Runs, is that your like stage name or is that your real name?

0:43 Stage name for sure.

0:44 Okay, cuz it's like it's too perfect.

0:46 It's too good.

0:46 It's too good.

0:47 It was Tommy Guns for uh for like a year really.

0:51 And then I started running and really liking

0:53 it and figured out that Tommy Runs was available.

0:56 So we made the switch.

0:57 What was the guns like?

0:59 So, yeah.

1:00 So I got sober in 2017 and just needed to find,

1:05 you know, myself again and started lifting really like heavy and six,

1:09 seven days a week was just lifting and um

1:13 got to this point where I'm like looking good,

1:15 feeling good and then changed the name to Tommy Guns and was in the gym

1:18 heavy and then got offered a spot to run the Chicago Rock and Roll Half Marathon

1:25 and then kind of fell in love with that process and started running more.

1:28 and my cousins like, "Yeah, you're you're losing the guns, bro.

1:32 Your runs right now."

1:34 Were you pretty jacked?

1:35 I think so.

1:36 I think so.

1:36 Like it

1:37 like how much did you weigh?

1:39 I think I was I was only like 165, but that's a lot for me.

1:42 But shredded.

1:43 Yeah.

1:43 Yeah.

1:44 Yeah.

1:44 And now

1:45 I show you a picture.

1:46 Yeah.

1:46 Yeah.

1:46 And uh so how's the So you switched to running and what year was that?

1:51 Running uh 2018.

1:53 Okay.

1:53 So, yes, so early 2017 and then running

1:58 kind of came into the picture Mayish of 2018.

2:03 And has exercise just in general been the key to sobriety, do you think?

2:09 No, I don't think it was the the not for me at least.

2:11 I know a lot of people use that like different type

2:14 of modalities to kind of keep sober or help them in that aspect.

2:18 But I mean AA in the rooms of AA really

2:21 is what led me on this journey and this path.

2:23 Um running just

2:26 movement became a way that I use my time.

2:29 And after getting closer into running and and training

2:34 for marathons and stuff like that, I feel like it

2:36 is a very um it's a kind of the physical

2:40 version of of sobriety in a way because it's

2:43 it's it literally is one run at a time and one blah blah blah at a time.

2:48 So, it just kind of mirrors that sobriety aspect for me,

2:50 but it's not like how I stay sober.

2:52 um it's just what I choose to do now that I have like that clarity

2:58 or that time or that energy or that um that desire to do more.

3:02 Mhm.

3:03 Yeah.

3:03 I know for me it's like when you work so hard at something like in running

3:08 if I have running goals when I think

3:10 about drinking I that's just sabotaging my goals.

3:13 It's just like why would I bust my ass to do this and then just

3:18 kill myself with this other with this thing poison.

3:21 I mean, people do it, bro.

3:22 Yeah, I know they do.

3:23 It's like, but I I'm like I get so like tunnel vision.

3:26 I want to be the best I can be at this one thing.

3:29 And so, anything else that hurts that I don't want anything to do with.

3:32 Well, like I think I had, you know,

3:35 prior to choosing sobriety or going down that road.

3:39 I mean, I, you know, wanted to be, you know,

3:42 healthy and wanted to like go to the gym more and all that stuff.

3:45 And you just never, you know,

3:47 when you're in your like I guess like the throws of alcoholism, you don't

3:52 I mean, when are you going to go?

3:54 Yeah.

3:54 You know, I was definitely I'm not one of those I

3:56 wasn't one of those like binge drinkers where they,

3:58 you know, you only drink every two weeks,

3:59 something like that, and you just get drunk.

4:01 Mine was the everyday thing.

4:02 So, it was very timeconuming, very energy consuming.

4:06 And so when that finally like kind of broke,

4:10 I'm like looking at myself in the mirror just

4:12 like I don't even like like this person, you know?

4:15 I don't like the way I look.

4:16 I didn't like how I felt.

4:17 So then I just started going, you know,

4:19 and that's like if I didn't make that decision,

4:24 then I wouldn't be here, you know?

4:26 So you I was going to ask how has your life changed since then?

4:30 But your life would you think it'd be over?

4:32 Oh, yeah, for sure.

4:32 Like I mean just the just not to be dramatic but like the way that I felt

4:36 you know it wasn't um like the decision

4:40 the decisions I was making with my safety you know

4:42 and even like my kids safety um and the just the the the symptoms and the things

4:50 that I was like feeling every day that I

4:52 was just kind of pushing through and deciding to continue.

4:55 I don't even know if it's a decision.

4:56 I was just continuing down this road no matter what.

4:59 And you know, my my dad passed of a stroke at 39 years old.

5:04 He was a drinker.

5:06 Um, so like I had this model of like what essentially what not to do.

5:12 And but I was just kind of like barreling down that road like faster

5:15 to see if I could beat him to that, you know, get there quicker.

5:19 But I know for sure that if I didn't make that hard

5:22 decision cuz it wasn't it wasn't um try it, see what happens.

5:27 I mean, I tried a couple times to go

5:28 like sober January or something like that or, you know,

5:30 dry January, but it just didn't work.

5:32 Like, I couldn't make it 2, three days for the most part.

5:36 So, when I finally made that decision to like walk into those rooms,

5:40 it was a a hard firm decision and it just it it saved my life.

5:45 M.

5:46 Oh, that's I'm happy because seems like

5:49 you're just crushing it now and like you've

5:52 really created this this opportunity this in the space

5:55 and you're just making the most of it and you

5:58 know I I was lucky enough to be on your panel over here at the at the expo

6:03 for the Gene Marathon and it was packed and you

6:06 do such a good job talking with people and so

6:09 I it just makes me to see how successful

6:11 and and just the response you get from the community.

6:17 Um, what was it like before like when you're what

6:20 did you do before you drank or when you were drinking?

6:22 What was your job?

6:23 Um, so yes, I had a the same job actually from 2007 until last year.

6:29 So early 2025.

6:31 Um, I worked for a vehicle shipping company and I started working

6:35 as just like the ear this first job you get in and you

6:39 walk in the door and by the end of it I

6:41 was um one of the two vice presidents of the company and

6:46 I built all that and did all that while drinking.

6:48 And that was like probably the scariest like part

6:51 of it looking back is cuz like this whole

6:55 concept of um like functional alcoholic.

6:59 Yeah.

7:00 like I'm doing fine.

7:01 I'm not like on the side of the street or whatever and I'm not I haven't

7:06 lost my house and all these things and I haven't got any trouble with the law.

7:09 So, I was just figuring I was fine, you know,

7:12 and just kind of using those all those excuses that I wasn't

7:16 I wasn't the guy in the movies, you know.

7:19 Yeah.

7:19 And um so like it it was I was successful, you know,

7:23 in in in almost any um like metrics of how you could find it, but

7:30 it just I was miserable, you know, and inside.

7:33 Yeah.

7:34 And and it was kind of I've always kind of carried that, you know,

7:37 what if if people knew like what I when I last drank,

7:42 what I'm drinking, how much, then all this could be gone.

7:45 So, like it was kind of like a way to never really trust myself,

7:50 never um give myself credit for like what was happening.

7:55 But so, prior to to drinking, it was decent, you know,

7:59 and it just I just didn't like who I was in those things.

8:03 And then once I got sober,

8:04 then it actually then you start seeing that like the thing that you're,

8:08 you know, good at and that you're getting paid for maybe isn't your thing.

8:13 Yeah, maybe you have maybe now that this this new life that you have,

8:18 maybe you want to do more with that.

8:19 Maybe you want to start sharing real stories in a way

8:24 that help people um instead of just making money, you know.

8:30 And so I think that was the the change really for me beca after sobriety

8:35 was starting to like find my own voice in all of these things and then deciding

8:40 at one point I'm like this whole Tommy runs thing is is cool cuz I get

8:45 to run and push myself but then at the same time I'm able to share my story,

8:50 talk to other people about theirs um and do it hopefully

8:55 in a way that inspires like one or two people to do like anything.

9:00 Mhm.

9:00 Well, I know that will happen.

9:03 I'm, you know, when you explain that functioning alcoholic and, you know,

9:06 just getting by and nobody really knows.

9:08 There's so many people just like that, you know, that

9:13 and you know, I was probably like that in some ways.

9:15 And you can lie to everyone.

9:18 You can, but when you look in the mirror, that's that's when it sucks.

9:23 What what advice would you have for people in in the position

9:28 you were in that might be struggling with the same thing?

9:30 What would you tell them?

9:32 I mean, if if you're in a position where you know, like you

9:39 for a long time I maybe didn't know like I

9:41 tried to tell myself I was fine like everybody does this.

9:44 Yeah.

9:44 And but I think there's a certain amount

9:46 of delusion that you believe a lot of it,

9:49 but then there's a point where you stop believing that and you know it's not

9:52 okay and you feel the things you feel or whether it's a physical or emotional.

9:56 And if you're at that point,

9:58 I just like implore people to to kind of not give up

10:02 in the in the in the sense of um like just quitting,

10:06 but giving up like the fight of of trying to be

10:09 normal in that sense and trying to act like everything's okay.

10:13 cuz that's when that's where all the the lies

10:17 you tell yourself to keep going is is

10:19 happening when you just when you think you're

10:20 fighting through this thing and trying to be normal.

10:22 But if you say like, "Yo, I'm not.

10:24 This is not okay.

10:25 I have no control over this thing and I

10:28 have a problem." That's like the first step obviously.

10:32 And for me like that came from, you know, people always,

10:36 you know, if you have people that love you, people check on you.

10:38 They just ask you how you're doing.

10:39 And and my mom asked me that question.

10:42 And normally it's just like a quick text back like, "Yeah, I'm good." You know,

10:46 but for some reason like that day in January, I was like,

10:50 "Not doing great." And she didn't ask a bunch of questions.

10:54 She was just like, "Go check out employee assistance program." And so I hit

10:59 them up and they asked me how many times I drank and stuff like that.

11:01 I told them the truth.

11:02 That was like my second truth, I guess.

11:04 And then I went to a therapist and told her the third and she's like,

11:06 "You should go to AA." Mhm.

11:08 And so I think that's for me that story

11:10 just is is more about just realizing that I had

11:15 nothing left to like lie about or you know

11:18 and just giving up that fight of of like resistance to

11:24 um cuz we want to control it.

11:25 We want to we think we can.

11:27 We try

11:28 for decades.

11:30 Yeah.

11:30 But we think maybe we can change it.

11:32 But you if you can't and you know you can't

11:34 just let that go and start getting help like immediately.

11:38 Yeah.

11:39 Well, that's good advice.

11:40 I mean and I mean it feels like lately society is

11:46 going more towards sober than it had than I have remembered.

11:52 Like less people are drinking.

11:54 It feels like from what I see more people are

11:57 cuz before you'd say oh I don't drink.

11:59 Then people would be like, you know, what's what's wrong with this guy?

12:03 You know what I mean?

12:04 You were the outcast if you didn't drink.

12:06 Now it's like kind of switching where it's kind of celebrated to be like,

12:09 "No, I don't need to pollute myself." Yeah.

12:12 You know, that's fine.

12:13 So that's that's good to hear, but

12:15 or good to see, but it's great to hear your your journey.

12:19 And I know just you talking about it will help people and will cuz people

12:24 will listen to this and they they know

12:26 they're in the same situation, you know, and

12:29 um it is hard making that first step

12:31 and and going and talking to somebody and saying, "Hey, I think I need help."

12:37 Yeah,

12:36 that's that's really hard.

12:38 But it's the way you fix it.

12:40 Yeah.

12:40 I mean, it's scary for sure.

12:42 But then I guess like if you're at the point where I was at, I mean,

12:45 I was scared to, you know, die.

12:48 you know, I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want I got two kids.

12:51 I didn't want to leave them like kind of how I felt like I was not left,

12:54 but you know, the situation I had to look grow up through.

13:00 Mhm.

12:59 And I'm just looking at them like, yo,

13:01 like if I have a opportunity to maybe try to do

13:07 this a little differently than just I'm going to go sober for a month.

13:11 um if I can do something real and different and tangible,

13:15 then maybe I could stick around a little longer.

13:19 And that was kind of what I needed to step through like that door.

13:24 Mhm.

13:24 Yeah, that's that's great.

13:26 And now this whole thing,

13:28 it's just like did you ever envision that this could

13:30 be as successful as it as it is?

13:33 No.

13:33 No.

13:33 You know what I mean?

13:33 Cuz I when I started running, I was just making content because I posted

13:37 stuff on like Facebook and people would say,

13:39 "Good job." And I was like, "That's all I needed." I'm like,

13:41 "Okay, I'll keep going." You know what I mean?

13:44 Um because a lot of people knew that I drank.

13:46 So, and

13:49 and so hearing something different, you know, was was what I needed.

13:53 And

13:54 I just made content for me and maybe a few people to say good job for.

13:58 And then eventually,

13:59 this was kind of before like the running influencer like I guess thing.

14:04 Mhm.

14:04 And um so I was just making stuff for fun and then it

14:07 led to something more and then the pandemic and I started a podcast.

14:10 And so I've always tried to um I've always been the type even through like

14:15 drinking I was always looking for some

14:17 like random opportunity to do more or something.

14:21 Mhm.

14:21 And um so I never thought I'd be here,

14:25 but it it kind of makes sense when you when

14:28 you look back and start connecting the dots and stuff.

14:31 Yeah, for sure.

14:31 Well, it's uh I mean, so you work for yourself essentially and then you

14:35 then brands hire you to do different projects and

14:39 but you have you have your podcast.

14:41 Um like what's your main things that you do?

14:44 So I have two podcasts.

14:45 I have the Tommy Run Show.

14:47 Um, and then which which you were on.

14:49 Uh, and then I have the PR project with two of my friends.

14:52 Uh, we we we pod every other week

14:54 and we just talk about all the all things running

14:56 and have fun and but then also talk about

14:59 more serious topics and we kind of lean more towards

15:01 I don't know if I've listen to that.

15:02 What's it called?

15:03 The PR project.

15:04 Okay.

15:04 Yeah.

15:05 Yeah.

15:05 Yeah.

15:05 So, it all it started because we always were trained to PR something

15:08 and then it just kind of it's evolved to something a little different.

15:11 We've hosted live shows.

15:13 This is how the Eugene thing came about was the PR project.

15:18 Yeah.

15:17 And um and then for Tommy Runs, I run I train for races.

15:21 I sign up for races with brands and stuff like that and

15:24 um make content along the way and try my best to

15:28 you know check the the brand box,

15:30 but then also carry the I guess whatever's true to me

15:35 and hopefully it like resonates with my community and others.

15:39 Yeah.

15:39 Well, yeah.

15:40 I mean, you're doing great work.

15:42 What's what of those things like what's the most rewarding part of it?

15:47 So, I think it's a couple things.

15:49 I mean, it the one that just like just jumped up first was is when I share about

15:56 my sobriety um and maybe a lesson learned or just

16:01 sharing that I'm sober period or like talking about,

16:04 oh, you I just hit 9 years in January.

16:06 and hearing people um that don't know me, you know,

16:11 or I don't know them reach out to me and share a story, you know,

16:16 maybe while they're struggling or they're 30 days sober or 5 years or 10 years

16:21 and they're just saying thank you to me for telling my truth again, you know,

16:25 and that's huge because it it it's deeper than like

16:32 a shoe sale or like a affiliate code or whatever.

16:36 And it's more about like it makes me feel

16:40 valuable to um that makes all this worth it.

16:44 I mean because if you like I feel like I suffered

16:47 for a bit you know and it I wouldn't want to take it back

16:53 but I do want to make sure that that is is worth something

16:56 you know and if I can share the story and people reach out

17:00 that's all like that's that's fine.

17:01 If if I make a real and 10,000 people watch it and like one person reaches out,

17:07 that one person means more than 10,000 views for me.

17:10 Yeah.

17:10 The impact.

17:11 Yeah.

17:11 And then so that same kind of sentiment carries into like,

17:15 you know, to the black run community.

17:17 And the more people that see me do my thing

17:19 and run a marathon or run two in this short

17:23 period of time or whatever or jump into ultras

17:25 and people say that like they feel like they can

17:30 they're invited more to a certain space because of us,

17:33 you know, seeing you there.

17:34 Yeah.

17:34 Seeing me there and seeing me share it the way I do, then

17:37 then both of those, you know, are are make it feel all this is is worth it.

17:42 What how come do why do you think like um Ultra has been slower

17:47 to to grow and like you know there's a lot of old white guys basically.

17:53 I mean that's who like why is Ultra slower

17:56 cuz I see the road road running is very diverse.

18:00 Yeah.

18:00 Well I think it's like

18:01 is it just a mountains?

18:03 I mean maybe I mean I guess like if

18:05 you I guess if you look at like population like

18:08 density yeah I mean cities it's not too many like

18:10 there's not mountains near Detroit right you know period so

18:13 I just that I don't know

18:15 I think it's I think it's many things I think it's

18:16 that but then I think it's also you know I didn't

18:18 grow up seeing people run you know I didn't see black

18:22 folks like running for recreation or fun just around the neighborhood

18:25 and if you see that growing up often then the chances of you picking up you know

18:30 a pair of running shoes eventually and doing

18:31 the same thing as an adult is is higher.

18:35 Y and I didn't start running until until after sobriety.

18:37 So I was 33 or 34 or whatever when I started running and I'm like when I

18:45 started it in 2018 19 I didn't even see many of us at that point you know like

18:49 when you signed up my first race was

18:50 the Detroit Free Press in Detroit and you still kind

18:54 of like look around and at that point it's

18:57 like there's not that many of us here then.

18:59 And so like after 2020, 2021,

19:03 then you start seeing more um more black folks like stepping into that space.

19:07 You just more people running in general because of the pandemic.

19:10 And

19:11 I think that trail will happen, you know, but it's just

19:15 if a community in general is new to like a sport period,

19:20 they're not going to typically like go straight

19:22 to the extreme like climb run up a mountain.

19:25 It's just it's real it's incremental and you're just seeing

19:29 you're just seeing the growth of it.

19:30 You're seeing people get faster.

19:32 people have bigger goals and targets um just as time goes

19:37 in the community cuz there's many I mean

19:39 just just not to discount like all the black

19:41 folks that have been putting up crazy numbers

19:43 and miles for a long time you know um

19:46 and like Ted Corbett and the you know NYR he like so long ago

19:51 but it's still just small in compared to like

19:54 what the possibility is as a community um and I

19:57 think all things are better like even on the road

19:59 now that you you look around you see

20:01 things are more diverse and that means that brands

20:03 and race organizations and whatever have you like have

20:07 to um now or can not even have to can

20:11 change how they communicate to all of us, you know,

20:14 right?

20:15 Hopefully social media helps that too.

20:17 I think so for sure.

20:18 You know, reach because you can reach everyone.

20:22 Yeah.

20:21 Uh cuz I know I mean I ran the LA half.

20:24 Have you run that?

20:24 That

20:25 I ran LA for the first time the full uh this last pass LA.

20:29 Oh, you did?

20:30 Yeah.

20:30 Yeah.

20:30 Yeah.

20:31 The just happened.

20:32 Yeah.

20:32 Okay.

20:32 Cuz I was there I was there, too.

20:34 It was hot, right?

20:35 Yeah, it was a little hot.

20:36 It got it got a little spicy.

20:38 I mean, I only I wasn't out there as long as you, so was easier on me.

20:42 But

20:43 yeah, I mean, I think I snuck I snuck cuz it wasn't a bad day.

20:47 Like, it started off as like 50 something degrees and then it got to like 90

20:51 towards the end.

20:51 Yeah.

20:51 But I think I snuck in when it before it got hot, too.

20:54 So, like I I got I got the good side of it.

20:58 Good.

20:58 But but what I was going to say is like I

21:01 noticed down there I hadn't done a race in LA ever.

21:04 Very diverse.

21:06 I mean it's just like I I thought it was cool.

21:10 I was like I'm not used to cuz Eugene is like

21:14 it's Eugene.

21:15 It's not like LA.

21:17 So you go to a race here is just what it is.

21:19 I go down there and I was like this is awesome.

21:22 I love to see all you know so just all sorts of different people.

21:27 It was sick.

21:28 Yeah.

21:28 I mean, because it it kind of felt I guess if you had to think about

21:32 like it it felt a lot like New York like New York New York City Marathon.

21:35 New York City Marathon is

21:37 I mean New York is global diverse though.

21:39 It's like I love the running through the five burrows and you see like Yeah.

21:44 Each each burrow has their own feel.

21:45 the hidic Jews are just like kind of

21:48 you know just so quiet not make then you go in reggae

21:51 music going crazy and I don't know I can't remember where Bronx maybe

21:56 but this is so cool I love seeing all those different communities

21:59 I mean they they they could just make the course

22:02 a little flatter and we could just still maybe the bridge itself

22:05 if we could get if we could just get

22:07 through all these burrows somehow just a little flatter

22:09 the worst bridge is is Queensboro bridge the one with the like

22:12 the over overpass or whatever it just gets it's only at mile 15,

22:16 but it gets so dark and like lonely right there.

22:18 Yeah.

22:18 And it it's like a little It's a hill.

22:20 No, it's definitely a hill to get up on those things.

22:23 But I That was where I'd got my fastest marathon before today.

22:27 Oh, really?

22:28 Yeah.

22:27 New York.

22:28 Yeah,

22:28 that's crazy.

22:29 That was in 2000 20 years ago.

22:31 What time?

22:32 Wait, 20 years ago.

22:33 What time was that?

22:34 It's 25021.

22:35 And then you just ran 238.

22:38 239.

22:39 239.

22:39 Yeah.

22:41 Gez.

22:40 But like I said, I have never trained.

22:42 I've I jog like Well, we used to call it jogging, but I used to call it jogging.

22:48 Yeah.

22:48 Back in the day.

22:50 Okay.

22:50 I'm old.

22:51 Running.

22:52 Okay.

22:52 Or training.

22:53 Nobody says jogging, do they?

22:55 Yeah.

22:55 No, I don't think so.

22:56 I think if somebody says I went for a jog.

22:58 Yeah, that's right.

22:59 Kind of supposed to be a little funny or something.

23:00 That's what we used to say.

23:02 Um, so yeah, I've run I've run my whole life,

23:06 but uh and I you know, like when we were talking on the panel Yeah.

23:09 when I starting when I was five.

23:10 So, I've been doing it for 53 years, never done it right.

23:14 So, with this, you know, as I said, true.

23:17 It helped, but I've finally actually trained.

23:19 And so, this is a result.

23:20 Well, I mean, I'm glad that you're starting to pick

23:22 it up a little bit, you know, cuz like before it's too late.

23:25 Yeah.

23:25 I feel like I feel like I mean,

23:27 some would say like you're you might be a slow learner in these situations

23:30 cuz 50 something years is a long time to be like, you know what?

23:33 Let me try to a little different.

23:35 Maybe I could do this better.

23:37 Yeah.

23:37 Um but yeah, so New York was my Yeah.

23:41 2006 that was my fastest.

23:43 But I love I love the big ones, but um you know, like London today.

23:49 True.

23:49 It just it's like so many people.

23:52 It makes it makes me really appreciate a race like Eugene, you know?

23:56 It's like the perfect size.

23:57 I don't know, man.

23:58 You like the big ones?

23:59 Well, so I think I think that you like

24:01 being like in the in like the woods by yourself.

24:05 Yeah.

24:05 Yeah.

24:06 So if 10 people are outside cheering for you, you're like, "Wow, this is great."

24:10 Yeah, that's true.

24:11 Yeah.

24:11 Like I'm I'm like my favorite race or marathon

24:14 is London because it's flatter than New York,

24:17 but it also has like that same energy.

24:20 So like I want I want there to be like eight deep like

24:23 crowds screaming and I'm just going to pretend that they're all there for me.

24:27 You know, that's the vibe I need.

24:28 That did it did help today cuz just because I've lived here my whole life,

24:32 I heard a lot of keep hammering or can't.

24:34 It does help for sure.

24:36 But uh

24:37 I don't know if I don't know if that I'm

24:38 sure it's because people know you that because you live here,

24:41 but also I mean you're you're kind of well known a little bit.

24:45 Yeah.

24:45 I I don't know.

24:46 But it was it was it was a fun day.

24:48 You didn't like that?

24:49 It was a fun day.

24:51 I just I just love competing.

24:53 I think I think I just love to line up, which is weird.

24:56 You'd think that I would if I love competing,

24:58 you think I'd want to be better at it, and I hadn't until this year.

25:01 So,

25:01 do you think like after today's after the training block you

25:04 did and then after today's race you'll you'll kind of stay

25:08 I don't know you never I'm not very smart okay

25:11 50 years to learn this but I was talking

25:13 to Truit kind of debriefing his race and my race

25:17 and uh I said how how fast do you think I could get

25:22 because we want to I I can't remember if I mentioned

25:24 but we're we want to set the world record for father son marathon

25:29 LeBron James.

25:30 Yeah.

25:30 Yeah.

25:30 Cuz right now it's uh it's Tommy Hughes from Ireland.

25:35 I think it's from the 80s maybe.

25:36 I don't know.

25:37 It's been around a while, but he was an Olympian in Ireland.

25:40 His son was a good runner, but he ran like a 220 some like a 230 some.

25:45 So the world record all time father son is 459.

25:49 Same race.

25:50 Has to be the same race.

25:52 Um probably.

25:53 I'm not sure.

25:54 I feel like that would Yeah, that would make sense.

25:56 So, I think me and Truit want to do

25:58 it in London next year because that's where Guinness is.

26:00 Guinness Book of World Records.

26:02 So, we get the certificate right then if we do it.

26:05 Okay.

26:05 That'd be a vibe because you know

26:06 they're doing like the two-day thing next year,

26:09 right?

26:09 Double the people, right?

26:10 Right.

26:11 Yeah.

26:11 Double the people.

26:11 That would be great for you.

26:12 Yeah.

26:13 Be sick.

26:14 Yeah.

26:14 Oh, God.

26:15 It would be great for your performance.

26:16 But, uh, yeah.

26:17 So, that's We were kind of debriefing there,

26:19 seeing how close we were after today.

26:22 And, uh, yeah, I think we can get it.

26:24 Yeah, you guys are kind of close then today.

26:26 Yeah, I mean if he would have had a better run for sure.

26:29 Yeah, cuz tell him he's got to pick up the slack.

26:31 So if he's got to get 220 and then I got under 240, I got 23.

26:36 So we would had it.

26:38 Mhm.

26:37 But he has to get 220.

26:39 Okay.

26:39 So he's got he's got the harder work to do.

26:42 He's got Yeah, he's got he's got for him.

26:44 Um Okay.

26:45 So you like the big stuff, the big races.

26:49 Yeah.

26:49 But you also are doing Western States.

26:53 Yes.

26:52 That's not a big race.

26:53 No, I mean it uh Yeah,

26:55 for ultras it's kind of pumped.

26:57 Yeah.

26:57 Yeah.

26:57 Yeah.

26:57 I think like the from what I've seen the videos

26:59 the the aid stations are go kind of crazy.

27:03 Yeah.

27:02 Yeah.

27:02 People love cuz most people can't get in.

27:07 Yeah.

27:06 So when one of their buddies gets in, everyone goes, you know what I mean?

27:11 Yeah.

27:11 But uh are you pumped?

27:12 Yeah, I'm excited.

27:13 Um yeah, I think um the the funny part about like

27:17 my ultra this ultra journey is like it's very new to me,

27:20 you know, like I've only been doing trail and ultra for a you know,

27:24 my first Altra experience was last March 2025.

27:28 And that was uh the speed project.

27:32 Yeah.

27:31 So from LA to Las Vegas.

27:33 Yeah.

27:33 And so like this is all fairly new.

27:36 But when I first started running,

27:39 I was watching like western states, you know, happen.

27:43 I I saw the documentary when Jamsy turned the wrong way.

27:46 And then the next year I was like in my car like tracking like

27:49 the old school tracker where you just keep updating to see if if he did it.

27:53 And that's when he dropped out cuz he got like overheated or something.

27:58 Yeah.

27:57 But like so my I was watching Jim Wamsley

27:59 before like I knew who Ellie Kachchokei was essentially.

28:03 It's kind of cool to to remember that moment and then

28:07 now I'm doing like Western States and and I'm aware

28:10 of like the history I always have been like how

28:12 hard it is to get in and how many years people,

28:15 you know, wait and keep re-qualifying to be at this race.

28:18 So,

28:20 um the way that I got in was definitely different than than that process.

28:25 But uh just like when I ran like Havalina 100 last year,

28:29 um my goal is to use the opportunity cuz it's a crazy opportunity

28:34 to get to run this race and use it to the best of my ability,

28:37 which I mean to me just train as hard as I possibly can, be ready for it,

28:41 and just go for my best period and um make sure

28:47 obviously I tell my story along with others along the way.

28:51 Yeah.

28:50 Yeah.

28:50 So like it's I'm excited about it.

28:53 Um, I feel uh I don't feel nervous about it yet.

28:57 Uh, but I know that I can put

29:00 in a lot of work between now and when Western happens.

29:03 Yeah.

29:03 Yeah.

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31:22 How much like like hill work do you do?

31:26 So in Michigan it's not much, right?

31:28 So like I find on normal runs I try to find as many like little hills as I can.

31:33 Um uh but other than that, like if I have a hill workout,

31:37 it's I'm just straight to the treadmill with it.

31:39 Turn it up and just get to work.

31:40 Uh one thing that I learned, I ran big Alta 100K,

31:43 but that's like 12,000 or 1200 12,500 ft of elevation gain.

31:47 Yeah, that's actually a lot.

31:48 Yeah.

31:48 So for 60 miles

31:50 and and I trained for that in the gym pretty much, you know,

31:54 sled pulls and all the things and I didn't feel like trashed after that.

31:58 So I'm I'm happy with that.

32:00 But then one thing I learned a lot about that experience

32:03 is that I'm like terrible at like walking and and like hiking.

32:06 Yeah.

32:07 You know, because I'm so I'm so

32:08 used to marathon training and everything's running.

32:10 There's there's not a point when you're walking.

32:13 I mean, unless you're having a bad day.

32:16 Yeah.

32:15 So, I'm not good at it.

32:16 And so, my goal this training block is to do

32:19 all the things I did for Big Alta plus,

32:22 you know, four mile at 15% or 14% and just like walk, hike it out.

32:27 Yeah.

32:27 Yeah.

32:28 Those suck.

32:29 I'd rather do Yeah.

32:31 I'd rather do a marathon specific workout than walk

32:35 four miles.

32:37 Yeah.

32:37 And there is a lot of walking in Mountain ultras

32:40 for sure cuz you try to run up the hill,

32:42 you blow your legs out or the the thing that gets people at Western.

32:46 I remember this from when I I this is like a long time ago, 2010 I ran it.

32:51 But

32:52 it's going down in the canyons at the beginning.

32:54 You blow your quads out and then you got nothing left.

32:57 But cuz you can just bomb down those hills.

33:00 And I remember there was a guy he they let him

33:02 in cuz he's supposed to be like in the top 10.

33:05 So he got some whatever entry

33:08 and uh he was supposed to compete, flew over from his country,

33:12 bombed down the past me, flying down the downhills and then dropped.

33:18 Could not run.

33:20 Yeah.

33:19 I mean legs just would not work after that.

33:22 And then you hear people like going backwards downhill

33:25 to give their quads a break.

33:26 Okay.

33:26 Okay.

33:27 So, they have to go backwards.

33:28 Yeah.

33:28 Towards like middle end of the race.

33:30 Yeah.

33:30 Yeah.

33:30 So, yeah.

33:31 I mean, that's why I asked about the hills.

33:33 Yeah.

33:33 I'm I'm I'm working on it.

33:34 And I mean, I know that I'm at a disadvantage than like

33:37 for some people that are that live near like stuff like this out here.

33:40 Yeah.

33:40 But 12,000 ft if you did that.

33:42 That's a lot cuz

33:43 then I ran the next day.

33:44 Western only has 18 I think.

33:46 Yeah.

33:46 18.

33:47 And then like but the descent I guess is the issue

33:49 because it's like 18,000 ft and then like maybe 20 or 21,000.

33:52 Right.

33:52 A little more descent.

33:53 Yeah.

33:54 So, I'm just I'm just I'll just I'm going to be in the gym doing my thing,

33:57 trying to just make sure I'm as ready as possible.

34:00 Yeah, I mean, I know like my head will be there, though.

34:02 That's that's an important part of it, too.

34:05 That'll be fun because again, all the stars are there, you know?

34:09 So, that's kind of the big reason why I was wanted to do Coco Dunana again,

34:13 just because I just love seeing everyone.

34:17 Yeah.

34:17 Do you know Do you know Dan Green?

34:18 Uh, I don't know him, but

34:20 Yeah.

34:20 So, I got to hang out with him at Big Alta.

34:22 Yeah, he I didn't know whoast I didn't know who he was.

34:24 He was like, "We we met each other like

34:26 at at at breakfast at the hotel and we're I was like,

34:30 "Oh, I'm supposed to drive you over to the thing

34:32 with us to the shakeout run." I'm like, "All right, cool."

34:34 So, I'm like talking to him,

34:35 giving him[ __] because he's he's like driving 10 and two in the car.

34:38 He's like, I hate he's like, "I hate driving.

34:40 My girlfriend drives."

34:42 And um I didn't know like for a whole day at all about the background.

34:46 And then all of a sudden,

34:47 I'm I'm listening to him and Debo talk uh through an interview.

34:51 Yeah.

34:51 And Debo starts off.

34:53 He's like, "Yeah, we got Dan Green here, you know, winner of Coca-Cola.

34:57 Broke the record." I was like, "Oh my god."

34:59 Like I could have been asking him questions, bro.

35:00 I'm like making fun of his driving skills.

35:02 He's legit.

35:03 I haven't met him, but he's commented a few times, I think, on my stuff,

35:07 but I think I told him, you know,

35:08 obviously he's a incredible performance last year, but

35:12 those guys went out cuz Courtney went out super fast.

35:17 Harry went out.

35:18 Dan uh and some of them blew up.

35:23 Yeah.

35:22 You know, it was just But they were pushing, dude.

35:25 God.

35:25 Yeah.

35:26 I saw the he he he dropped a Dan dropped a video,

35:29 um like a little film about it.

35:31 And I mean, they did a really good job.

35:32 I think it's just him and his his his uh the Bargain Boys.

35:36 Yeah.

35:36 Uh just like covering the whole thing.

35:37 And he just was talking about that that moment he passed Courtney eventually.

35:42 Um, that's just such a wild like Coca-Cola like 250 miles

35:46 is in a race setting cuz I I did TSP so it

35:50 was like I get the distance but but that's a different thing

35:53 from like that type of start line to that type of finish.

35:57 Yeah.

35:58 And it's really hard like if you have the opportunity to pass it up just because

36:02 of we do all this because we want to see if we got what it takes.

36:06 Do we are we made with the right[ __] Yeah.

36:09 To get this done or not?

36:10 And how long did How long did it take you to finish?

36:14 Uh 84.

36:15 What is that in days?

36:17 Three and a half.

36:18 Yeah.

36:18 Okay.

36:19 Yeah.

36:19 Okay.

36:20 I'm hoping I'm a little quicker.

36:22 Uh yeah, it's Yeah, it's just hard.

36:26 I mean, I was kind of banged up last year.

36:28 Didn't know if I was going to be able to do it.

36:31 Had to cancel Boston cuz I got hurt.

36:34 So, I was like, well,

36:36 I had I hadn't done a 200 in eight years from me and Courtney did uh Moab 240

36:42 in 2017 and then I did Bigfoot in 2016 and I hadn't done a 200 until last year.

36:50 And I'm like, I don't even know if I'm tough

36:53 enough or good enough or maybe I'm too old now.

36:57 And then I was hurt and I'm just like I went down there.

37:00 I'm like, why am I doing this?

37:02 But you did it though.

37:04 Got it.

37:04 So now I'm back.

37:05 I feel I think I made it through Eugene.

37:08 Okay.

37:08 Today and uh so we should be all right.

37:10 All right.

37:11 Yeah, I think you're fine.

37:12 Yeah.

37:12 Yeah, it should be good.

37:13 Um so what's your like you mentioned Dan Green,

37:16 like who who do you enjoy following in Ultra like or runner?

37:20 Who's your favorite?

37:24 Um I guess I'd have to say Yeah.

37:27 I don't know.

37:28 You put me on the spot there.

37:29 Um,

37:31 yeah.

37:31 I don't really know cuz like I think that for the most

37:33 part cuz I'm I'm in like running like content world,

37:36 I try my best to like not see as much as possible cuz it either either like

37:41 I like somebody's content enough or like maybe I'll

37:43 accidentally like make her something just like they did

37:46 or it just becomes like too much to to watch and oh, Sally.

37:51 Sally.

37:50 Yeah.

37:50 like yeah I like watching I actually told I I messaged I was like yo

37:54 your content's actually like helping me because just

37:56 the way that she presents it cuz I've known

37:58 Sally for like 3 years but I was I'm a marathon dude so I wasn't worried

38:03 about Sally's content at all like she's running

38:05 these races that I have no idea about

38:08 and but now that I'm in this thing like every time she posts like I'm seeing how

38:11 much how valuable like the way that she's

38:14 sharing the content and the information that she has.

38:16 So, I've been definitely tapping into Sally stuff.

38:20 And I don't there's not a chance that I'd be a trail

38:22 runner if I lived anywhere where there was snakes like this often.

38:28 Yeah.

38:27 Like I was running through the Spencer's but thing imagining

38:32 like if if I died out here because of a snake.

38:35 Yeah.

38:34 This is that'd be a wild way to go.

38:37 Yeah.

38:37 It's uh Spencer doesn't have too many snakes.

38:40 Like too many?

38:41 I thought you were going to say no snakes.

38:43 Uh there's probably snakes, but Pisca has quite a few snakes.

38:46 Okay.

38:46 So, it's more it's more in the sun.

38:48 Like Spencer is wetter.

38:51 Snakes like the dry stuff.

38:52 Got it.

38:53 Yeah.

38:53 Got it.

38:54 So, when it's in the sun over there, Pisca is like in the sun all afternoon.

38:57 That's where you It's just It's just like a gopher snakes,

39:00 but they look like rattlesnakes.

39:02 They're I mean, they're this long.

39:06 Yeah.

39:05 And they look they don't do anything.

39:09 Okay.

39:08 But they look big.

39:09 All right.

39:10 I'll just have to I mean some things in like

39:12 you know some things in life you just don't have to

39:16 deal with.

39:16 Yeah.

39:16 Yeah.

39:17 And that's those one of those things

39:19 if I never see a go for steak in real life I'd be I'd be fine.

39:23 I hear you.

39:24 Um yeah.

39:25 So like what's where do you see ultra running going?

39:29 Cuz you said you've been a marathon guy.

39:31 Now you're getting like doing western and then what?

39:35 Um yeah I don't know.

39:36 Let's assume that goes good.

39:37 You get your under 24.

39:39 Yeah.

39:39 Yeah.

39:39 get that silver buckle.

39:40 The silver buckle.

39:41 One 100 miles one day.

39:43 Um, I think that I don't know like what

39:48 race would happen next or what direction that would take,

39:52 but I would love to to take whatever

39:54 momentum that that would cause in, you know,

39:58 my the the world of Tommy Runs and uh

40:01 build something that would give more um accessibility

40:07 or accessibility to people that wouldn't have imagined being

40:12 going on a trail run or being in the mountains,

40:14 something like that.

40:16 Um, and just use that momentum to build something for for people to either see

40:20 from a distance and be inspired by or uh to physically be a part of.

40:26 Um, I kind of have some thoughts about, you know,

40:29 what I think road watching from road running from 2019 till till now.

40:39 I think that some of the brands just the way

40:43 that society reacted to, you know, 2021, you know,

40:47 George Floyd and all these other different instances that caused

40:51 a lot of uh feelings and emotion and wanting people wanting,

40:56 you know, folks of color to be represented in a different way.

40:58 M I think that a lot of the brands responded well at that time,

41:02 but then also uh the I think if

41:07 there was a little more foresight in certain moments,

41:10 it would be something that's a little

41:11 more sustainable and more real to this day.

41:13 Mhm.

41:14 And with trail running being in the space that it

41:17 is right now and is is growing so so fast,

41:21 um that I think and would hope that the same

41:25 brands just on the other side of their companies

41:28 could could see the benefit of of positioning themselves

41:33 in a different way than they did on the road and

41:37 using like all these, you know,

41:38 resources and um in momentum that they have from the way

41:45 the trail is growing to uh to provide people all

41:49 people of you know of the backgrounds that don't have

41:54 the access or even like the imagination to end up some

41:59 of these places to figure out like hey how can

42:02 we include more people in this thing you know that uh

42:07 there's room for it you know and I hope that if

42:10 I And whether Western States goes good or well or not,

42:14 like I hope that I could be a part of creating a lane, so to speak, to

42:20 to help people see some other things.

42:24 Yeah.

42:24 Um cuz I said this I was on a panel at Trail Con um between Broken

42:28 Arrow and uh Western States last year and it

42:32 wasn't about it wasn't about this at all.

42:35 was about like content creation and stuff like that, but

42:38 I just like had to point out that like we

42:40 went on a four mile run up the escarment, you know,

42:43 and I had been there before and saw the things before,

42:47 but it's still like as I'm going up this escarment,

42:49 you kind of look to your right or your left or whatever and you you can imagine

42:53 that some people have never even thought of seeing

42:57 the site or the the views from these places,

43:00 right?

43:01 And it's not lost on me that like a kid or someone

43:07 standing in that spot right there that I just ran past kind

43:10 of willy-nilly on a shakeout run could change that person's like aspect

43:15 or life or vision or perspective on like what is possible outside of running.

43:21 Yeah.

43:21 And if I could use my voice or my privilege

43:27 in this sense or um you know my leverage then I'll do it.

43:34 Yeah.

43:35 Yeah.

43:35 Yeah.

43:35 That I you know when you were saying that about George Floyd and all

43:38 that it it is like there is a big reaction when something happens and then it

43:44 Yeah.

43:44 It didn't it goes away.

43:46 Yeah.

43:46 cuz I mean it's so many like which sucks but then at at the same time it's like

43:53 it's so much especially now it just seems like

43:55 it's so much to be um to react to.

43:59 Yeah.

43:59 And that like

44:00 there's something new every day

44:01 that the things that we should just be like let's stay reacting to this.

44:05 Yeah.

44:05 For a while

44:06 just kind of you know let's not move on with a new cycle.

44:10 Yeah.

44:10 And it it's like some things are like hey

44:11 let's address this for a second but let's go back.

44:13 But I just feel like it was um I would have liked in hindsight,

44:19 you know, I to see different things happen.

44:21 Um, and I'm not sure.

44:23 I mean, obviously things nothing's ever

44:25 beyond like change or whatever, but just,

44:28 you know, speaking about like for trail as it starts to grow and build,

44:31 like it would just be a shame to me to see a space

44:35 that is so different and so like surprisingly welcoming as like coming from like

44:40 from my perspective like walking into like Havalina 100 or Big Alta and feeling

44:45 the way that me and my crew were extremely like um welcomed and supported.

44:53 ed by random people, you know,

44:55 it's a different trail is a different vibe for sure.

44:58 So, if that's the vibe of trail,

45:01 then I would like for more people to experience that.

45:03 Yeah.

45:04 No, I I get that.

45:05 I was like, uh I was thinking, too,

45:08 um what about like a Tommy runs training camp for mountain,

45:12 you know, for new mountain runners?

45:13 Yeah.

45:14 I mean, I I definitely got I got a thing.

45:15 I got a thing.

45:16 I'll let you be the first person to know.

45:18 You'll be one of the first people to know once I once

45:20 I'm like fully like aligned on what I want to do after Western.

45:23 I think that would be sick to expose, you know.

45:26 Yeah, for sure.

45:27 Yeah.

45:28 Cuz it's it's it's I strongly feel that that brands um you know,

45:34 brands have to do their thing.

45:36 They have to from an influencer standpoint,

45:38 they have to like check the boxes for the views and this and they got to sell,

45:41 right?

45:42 And and then but I also feel like brands should always have

45:46 a a section of something that like this matches our core values.

45:51 Yeah.

45:53 And

45:53 um no matter what this side here is doing,

45:55 we're always going to have this whether it's two

45:57 people doing it or 10 or 100 or whatever,

46:00 we have to always have someone or people moving forward in that sense.

46:04 And a lot of times they do it through athletes.

46:06 But then as we know through, you know, history,

46:08 athletes don't necessarily have the time or capacity to like

46:13 be be an influencer in that like they're trying to win races.

46:16 Yeah.

46:17 There's not there's not many special people like that that can go

46:20 win a race but then also connect with people on that scale.

46:24 Yeah.

46:25 I think you'd be perfect, dude.

46:26 And it's like you talked about like the person who's never

46:29 been there on the trail that gets to see this new perspective.

46:32 You could do that with people.

46:34 Yeah.

46:34 And say, "Take a look at this." You know, you could actually put words to it.

46:38 I think you'd be perfect.

46:39 And I think every brand,

46:40 not every brand, but most big brands would be like,

46:43 "Yeah, we want to be part of this." Yeah.

46:44 I you you'd hope so.

46:46 I mean, just cuz it's so it's it's big deal, but it's simple.

46:52 Mhm.

46:51 It's not that it's nothing new, you know?

46:55 Just um but that's that's what I hope to do.

46:57 I hope to continue to push.

46:59 But the main thing for me is that it's always I have to make sure that it

47:03 if anything comes from um to that extent

47:07 like where I'm able to do stuff like that.

47:08 I want it to be built on the fact that you know

47:11 that I've been true and authentic to like who I am, what I am.

47:15 Um and then the the training and all this stuff is is is is like first for me.

47:21 Like I have to do all the things

47:24 and I have to put on all the miles.

47:25 I have to be ready for it fully.

47:27 You got to be authentic.

47:28 Yeah.

47:28 Like it's not just like, hey, um just because I'm me or whatever,

47:33 just jump in there and say, okay, I want to do this.

47:35 It's like I'm going to go um if you if you follow me, you already know that.

47:39 But if you don't, then it's like I'm going to do all the things that I

47:43 have to do to try to be ready for whether it's a 5K or, you know,

47:47 100 miles or like TSP was 340 miles.

47:52 Yeah.

47:51 And I had no idea why I said yes to that, but we did it.

47:55 Um, that was like my first ultra experience.

47:57 But even then, like I I said I said no twice in the to to myself kind of.

48:03 And the when I finally said yes, it was because that I could I knew that I could

48:08 make it make sense and make do it for a reason,

48:11 but then I knew that I could put in the work for it.

48:14 So, we raised money for release recovery that they

48:17 give scholarships to people looking to get into rehab.

48:19 But then also like my coach was like, "Yeah, I think you can do this.

48:23 We just got to put in a bunch of work and we did.

48:25 Yeah.

48:26 Nice.

48:26 Who's your coach?

48:27 Melissa Johnson White.

48:28 So, she's uh like, have you heard of Hansen's marathon method?

48:32 So, Luke Humphrey is that's his team.

48:34 And I got hooked up with her before my first marathon in 2019.

48:39 And I was like, I want to qualify for Boston.

48:41 And she's like, well, you have to run a marathon.

48:43 So, I'm like, all right, let's let's run this first one and then see,

48:46 you know, if we can train up for the second one.

48:48 And so, I've been with her since 2019.

48:51 Did you qualify?

48:51 I mean, you did Boston.

48:53 Yeah.

48:53 So, I the first marathon, she's like,

48:55 "Just break 3:15 and so we can see how far we can go

48:58 and then 8week training plan really quick and did 313 in Detroit." That's good.

49:03 So, area code 313 worked out well.

49:05 Oh, perfect.

49:06 And then co

49:08 and then I ran 248 like 40 something in 2021.

49:14 Yeah, dude.

49:14 That's good.

49:15 And then but then now like I think I'm on like 17 or 18 marathons.

49:19 Oh man.

49:20 Yeah,

49:20 man.

49:20 And you're on one.

49:21 Yeah.

49:21 We're just just training, working.

49:23 Love it.

49:24 Doing too much.

49:25 You said the 313.

49:26 That reminds me of 8 Mile.

49:28 Yeah.

49:28 Yeah.

49:28 Yeah.

49:28 The the movie.

49:29 Yeah.

49:30 313.

49:31 Put your what?

49:32 Hands up.

49:33 Yeah.

49:33 Yeah.

49:33 Yeah.

49:34 I don't One person did not put their hands up or what.

49:37 I can't remember how.

49:38 But I love that scene.

49:39 That was a good It was a good movie.

49:40 Eminem did a good job with the movie.

49:42 I love I loved it.

49:43 Yeah.

49:44 He was a good actor, too.

49:45 Yeah.

49:45 He didn't do bad.

49:45 I mean, he's playing I mean, he was kind of playing himself.

49:48 He was he was he did a good job at that.

49:50 For sure.

49:50 For sure.

49:50 You got to deliver lines still.

49:53 Yeah.

49:54 Um

49:54 well, tell me about uh how how was Eugene this time?

49:57 Like tell me you've done that panel before then?

50:00 So I've done so the PR project hosted the same type of show like where it was

50:06 um you know eight guests in a day or whatever just kind of back to back to back.

50:10 So we've done that twice.

50:12 We've done that for the running event.

50:13 Have you been to the running event yet in in Austin?

50:16 No, I haven't.

50:16 You should go.

50:17 you should go on time,

50:17 but I was in San Antonio for a couple

50:19 years because they're doing like a renovation, but

50:21 Oh, it's a vibe.

50:21 It's a vibe because like all the brands are there.

50:23 Um, but it's just it's just a big conference.

50:26 Um, and I think I think you'd like it.

50:28 But we've we've we hosted TR Live there a couple

50:30 times in a row or three times in a row now.

50:32 Um, so we're just like really good at just sitting down talking

50:35 to people and kind of like cranking them out and, you know,

50:38 next story, next story.

50:39 Um, but this time was cool cuz it was just me this time.

50:42 Um, and it was it was it was cool

50:45 to be able to to just have those conversations again,

50:50 but then each time it's somebody different, someone new,

50:52 like you were you were on the show with with Alexi.

50:54 Um, so I just I like talking to people and having

51:00 just a few things that I want to talk about,

51:02 just a couple bullet points and then just kind of vibing

51:05 out the rest and trying to figure out what makes people,

51:09 you know, why are people there and then but then also like

51:11 what makes them tick and have them move forward or, you know,

51:14 what why why on earth would you want to be in Eugene run the marathon, you know?

51:19 Yeah.

51:18 Um, but it's been it's been a vibe.

51:20 Um, and got to see the marathon.

51:23 Got to see you go by.

51:24 I got to see my girl put down put down a number.

51:26 Um, how was that?

51:27 You were everywhere out there.

51:28 How'd you get around so fast?

51:30 So I So a couple times I saw you and I was like I don't think he wants me to

51:34 No, I was fine.

51:35 I was I was just like in a groove.

51:37 Yeah.

51:37 Yeah.

51:37 I was just like I don't know.

51:39 No, I was fine.

51:39 Yeah.

51:39 No, it was it was cuz I've been there.

51:41 I mean I haven't run the rest you knew where I was.

51:43 Yeah.

51:43 This is my fourth year here and I haven't run the marathon yet here.

51:47 Um and

51:48 you're like a professional spectator now.

51:49 I'm a professional.

51:50 Like that's what I should just I need to add that to the bio on on on uh IG.

51:56 But it was cool because like it's it's not a bad course to spectate,

51:58 you know, like if you don't if you don't have a car to drive around,

52:02 you you can have a solid like three maybe four four points like

52:06 at the start back at mile nine just then cross the bridge 16.

52:12 Yeah.

52:11 And then back to like 25 or whatever,

52:13 right?

52:13 Yeah.

52:14 So that's that's all.

52:15 Is that where I saw you?

52:15 Okay.

52:16 Yeah.

52:16 I saw you.

52:16 I saw you at 9:00.

52:18 Yeah.

52:18 16 around that corner.

52:19 Well, no.

52:20 You were weren't you up on the Parkway?

52:22 Yeah.

52:22 So, I came over to 23.

52:24 I came down that way.

52:26 Okay.

52:26 Gotcha.

52:26 Gotcha.

52:27 Yeah.

52:27 You were zoned out.

52:28 You don't even know where you were.

52:30 But pushing.

52:32 Yeah.

52:32 And it was a vibe because you mean you had like the the the button-up shirt,

52:36 you know, the cut off sleeves.

52:37 I know.

52:37 I had to

52:38 you had to you had to be play the role, you know.

52:40 Got to do something crazy.

52:41 Yeah.

52:41 Yeah.

52:42 I got to make take advantage of this before I get it changed out.

52:45 What are you going to put?

52:46 They made a white one.

52:48 Oh, no.

52:49 Wait, wait.

52:50 People are going to People are going to unfollow you, dog.

52:52 I know.

52:53 We're doing uh Yeah.

52:54 Anyway, we got a plan.

52:56 But so they said I had a fake tooth.

52:58 They said I had a cavity under it.

53:00 So they had to pull it out.

53:01 So they pulled it out and then there was no cavity.

53:04 So now I'm like now I had a good tooth.

53:06 Now I got to redo this.

53:08 Anyway, I had to go over my teeth.

53:10 I used to bleach them.

53:11 Anyway, they wanted to match the color.

53:13 So they said, "Come over here so we can match your your teeth

53:16 on the color." And then I get over there and they said, "Hey,"

53:19 she's like, "Hey, my husband does a really good job on gold teeth.

53:21 Do you want for fun make a gold one?" I'm like,

53:24 "So, how long have you had that?"

53:26 Couple weeks.

53:27 Oh, that's it.

53:28 Okay.

53:28 No, like you got I think feel like you got to like keep it for now.

53:34 It's like Yeah.

53:35 I mean, I used to be so selfcon like wanted perfect teeth, perfect hair.

53:40 Like now I just don't even care.

53:42 But if you're gonna have something there, it has to be a gold tooth.

53:45 I feel like

53:46 I I don't know.

53:47 I think that if you're listening to this, I feel like

53:50 you need to comment right away so he doesn't do this.

53:53 Smash that like button.

53:54 Yeah.

53:54 Smash that like button and say gold tooth.

53:57 Yeah.

53:57 You want him to keep the gold.

53:58 There you go.

53:59 Yeah.

53:59 Yeah.

53:59 I I could easily be talked into keeping it.

54:02 I just feel like you should keep it.

54:03 Like I don't know.

54:05 I think that you should keep it.

54:06 What if your girls What do you Do you think you should keep the gold tooth?

54:11 Yeah.

54:12 See Yeah,

54:17 the white one looked perfect.

54:20 Okay,

54:19 it did.

54:20 They put the white one in.

54:21 I was like, "God dang, that

54:23 that looks good.

54:24 That does look good." But let me see the gold one again.

54:26 I'm like, "Yeah, let's see that."

54:28 Except I told him to not do the permanent permanent cement.

54:32 So, I was the other day I was running like on the course.

54:34 God

54:35 and the tooth fell out.

54:37 Jesus.

54:37 And I'm like I'm like I took a drink and then I was like

54:42 do you talk different immediately when it's gone?

54:44 Well, no.

54:45 I was like where did that tooth go?

54:46 It was the gold tooth.

54:48 And uh so then I thought did I swallow that?

54:51 Oh my god.

54:52 And I'm like I'm going to have to make myself puke and cuz I was walking up

54:55 and down the sidewalk over there on Amazon

54:57 and I'm like where the hell is that tooth?

54:59 And finally I found it.

55:01 Oh my god.

55:02 So yeah.

55:03 Anyway, we got it fixed now.

55:05 Okay.

55:05 All right.

55:06 I can't wait to see the story of this of this go

55:08 to what happens next in the in the saga of the tooth and we're making a video.

55:12 So I'm g well that that Bentley out there is like I give away cars.

55:17 So if you buy merch off my website you have a chance of I'

55:21 I've never given away car but I've given away a lot of trucks.

55:24 If you buy merch you have a chance for every dollar you spend you

55:28 get a point whatever you can win this Bentley right with the camo flame.

55:33 So, but what I'm doing is we're going to have like cuz

55:38 I used to be well I still kind of am a redneck hillbilly,

55:42 but even more so and lived in trailer parks type stuff.

55:48 So, we're going to do a we got Did you talk to that trailer park guy?

55:52 Yeah.

55:52 Are we good?

55:53 Yeah.

55:54 So, we're going to I'm going to like act like I'm living in a trailer park.

56:01 Okay.

56:01 But with this car.

56:02 Oh my god.

56:02 And I'm going to wake up in the morning and grab my gold tooth and put it in

56:07 in the trailer.

56:09 And then I'm going to go to the mirror

56:10 just thrash trailer and this is my life when I

56:14 started and then like play the answer machine and some

56:17 girl's going to be saying what a piece of[ __]

56:19 I am and then drunk and all this and then I'm going to go out of the trailer

56:23 and get in that car and so this is

56:25 and then we have cops that are going to chase me.

56:28 I'm like wait what's happening right now?

56:30 So it's going to be a whole video.

56:32 I don't know which story is better, the the tooth.

56:37 We'll see.

56:38 On the like losing on the sidewalk or or the getting

56:42 chased by cops out of a trailer in a Bentley.

56:45 We got to make we got to make the most of it.

56:47 This that sounds like a like a random recreation remix of of Eminem's

56:53 8 Mile story cuz you know he was in a trailer.

56:56 I know.

56:57 Yeah.

56:57 So it's like this you've you've taken it to another level though.

57:01 Mhm.

57:00 Yeah.

57:01 Well, and I like that, you know, he said he's white trash.

57:04 I do with live with my mom.

57:06 So, you take away all the[ __] people can say about you.

57:09 Then you just rap, you know.

57:10 Then, so that's what I do.

57:13 Okay.

57:13 Okay, bro.

57:14 Now we're getting to the bottom of like the whole camera story.

57:16 You've just modeled yourself after Eminem after all these years.

57:19 Nobody knew.

57:20 No, now they know.

57:21 Now I've been been exposed.

57:23 Yeah.

57:23 Um, yeah, it was it was fun seeing you out there on the course

57:27 and like I I just like I just love the Eugene Marathon,

57:31 but it's like having you there and having cuz I didn't run last year,

57:34 as I said, I was hurt, so I didn't see you last year,

57:36 but I just thought it was such a good addition there to have that

57:41 part of that.

57:41 And

57:42 every time when I was over there,

57:44 cuz I went over there to make that bracelet yesterday, but it it was like

57:48 there's a lot of people over there.

57:49 Yeah, it's it's definitely growing.

57:50 Like I mean obviously I have 1500 more

57:53 um runners or marathoners this year than last year.

57:58 Wow.

57:57 So it's growing pretty fast and I've I've been really

58:02 you know we've we've been blessed to be like a part

58:03 of it and um you know last year we had

58:06 Kira Damato on as like the main guest or whatever.

58:09 So a lot of people showed up for that and we had a big shakeout run last year,

58:11 big shakeout run this year.

58:13 So, it's been it's been really cool to like for them to embrace, you know,

58:17 because what happened was like I got invited what four

58:20 years ago to come and I had just run Boston.

58:22 I'm like or I I was planning on running Boston.

58:27 Yeah.

58:26 And I'm like I'm not going to run

58:29 because I'm doing Boston.

58:30 That's like my goal race.

58:31 But if you I got an idea and that's my that's my thing.

58:34 I like pitch ideas to people.

58:36 That's good.

58:37 Um I just feel like it's it'd be more me if I

58:39 pitch the idea to you instead of you giving me the idea.

58:41 Yeah.

58:41 Yeah.

58:42 Um, but uh, pitched the idea and we came out and they,

58:45 my friends, two friends ran the race, Gary and Aaron.

58:48 And then she's like, "We want you back." And I was like, "Well,

58:51 how about this time we sit down and do a show?" And then she's like,

58:54 "Yeah, sure." So they we haven't gotten ourselves uh booted yet,

58:58 so we're just keep coming back.

59:01 Oh, maybe next year I'll run the race.

59:02 Yeah, maybe next year.

59:02 I run the race.

59:03 I was going to say, "If I run the the Eugene Marathon, will you crew me?" Oh,

59:07 throwing some I'll run with you.

59:09 All right.

59:10 How about that?

59:10 I'll take I'll take that.

59:12 Which like Yeah.

59:13 I mean I don't know.

59:14 What would your goal be?

59:15 I don't know by then.

59:16 Yeah.

59:17 We got to see where you're at.

59:18 I'd love to like you know after this after Western I'd love to if the schedule

59:22 doesn't get weird I'd love to like run a fast marathon in the fall you know

59:27 and so you know what if I find myself back on a marathon?

59:30 I know that'd be sick.

59:31 I mean you could you could probably get

59:33 in the 30 30s could you take eight eight minutes off.

59:37 I've tried to break my so my PR is in Boston of 24659 or 246.

59:43 Yeah.

59:43 So 6 minutes

59:44 in uh uh 2023 and but I've tried

59:48 to break it like I honestly tried like three times.

59:52 Yeah.

59:52 Two of them were back toback.

59:53 So maybe the second one wasn't necessarily I did I did Berlin and then Chicago.

59:59 Okay.

59:58 But I I just I don't like I No shade to Berlin Marathon as a race.

1:00:02 I just don't like super flat.

1:00:03 I don't think like I just the super flat variation.

1:00:06 Yeah.

1:00:06 a little bit and um and then came

1:00:10 back and then did Chicago and tried that there.

1:00:12 But so I haven't broken that PR and it's a long time to to carry

1:00:15 a PR and Boston's a weird course to have a PR since 3 years old.

1:00:18 It's not 20 years, dude.

1:00:20 I carried mine for 20 years.

1:00:21 That's true.

1:00:22 That's true.

1:00:23 I mean, but maybe I need to go to jogging.

1:00:26 Yeah.

1:00:27 And not a training plan.

1:00:30 Yeah.

1:00:31 No, I think Yeah, it'd be cool to So,

1:00:33 have you done the whole like track workout and all that?

1:00:36 Oh, yeah.

1:00:36 Oh, yeah.

1:00:36 Yeah.

1:00:37 I mean, because I I started with a coach before I ran a marathon cuz like I

1:00:41 thought like if I'm going to qualify for Boston

1:00:43 within a year and a half of this moment, I'm going to need some help.

1:00:46 You need some help.

1:00:47 And um and that kind of goes back to like the sobriety

1:00:49 thing cuz like I know when I need help and Yeah.

1:00:52 And and let's Yeah, let's let's jump in.

1:00:54 She's been great though cuz she's she's trained me

1:00:56 through the the TSP thing um through the 100 mileers,

1:01:00 100ks, the 16 17 marathons and all that.

1:01:03 So, she's been great.

1:01:04 Like she's been super flexible.

1:01:06 Um like 2024 I ran uh seven marathons.

1:01:10 So, but all six majors before there were seven

1:01:13 and then of the seven the first one was Osaka.

1:01:16 Oh man.

1:01:16 So, like Osaka, Tokyo, seven days apart.

1:01:20 Yeah.

1:01:19 And um so she's been she's been a vibe, bro.

1:01:21 That's sick you've got to do all that.

1:01:23 How lucky is that?

1:01:24 Yeah.

1:01:24 Super.

1:01:25 I mean, I didn't even I mean, well, must be See, he must be nice.

1:01:27 You earned it, but people say lucky.

1:01:29 I'll say lucky.

1:01:30 But pretty amazing.

1:01:31 Yeah.

1:01:32 Oh, yeah.

1:01:32 Lucky, blessed or something, you know.

1:01:34 I mean, cuz the opportunity opportunity shows up and if you're ready.

1:01:38 Yeah.

1:01:38 You got to be ready.

1:01:40 Yeah.

1:01:39 And available and and willing.

1:01:42 Um what's the what's the newest major?

1:01:45 Um Sydney.

1:01:46 Oh, Sydney.

1:01:47 Yes.

1:01:47 Sydney's the seventh and then they'll do uh I believe like

1:01:50 Cape Town probably be the eighth like soon maybe like next year.

1:01:55 Mhm.

1:01:55 And then um uh like Shanghai I think it'll be nine.

1:01:58 So there'll be nine majors.

1:02:00 Running's going ape[ __] isn't it?

1:02:02 Yeah.

1:02:02 And then you got then you got London

1:02:04 doing trying to have 100,000 people in two days.

1:02:07 It's just crazy how do you like it?

1:02:10 Do you like the like the way it's as popular as it is?

1:02:13 Um, I mean there's always growing pains, you know, but no,

1:02:17 I I like it because I I like people doing cool[ __] you know.

1:02:20 It's like most I want people who aren't doing cool stuff to get out and live.

1:02:27 Yeah.

1:02:26 You know, and uh

1:02:28 what I always say when I meet somebody, my thing is like tell me a story.

1:02:34 Mhm.

1:02:34 If they don't have a good story, I'm like what the what are we doing?

1:02:38 What are we doing?

1:02:39 Yeah, I want to hear tell me a good story about something you've done.

1:02:43 And some people just don't don't have them.

1:02:48 And so I love that, you know, running can you have stuff to talk about.

1:02:52 You have experiences to talk about.

1:02:54 You have success and failures and people you met and all these things.

1:02:59 It's like that, okay, now we're that's living.

1:03:02 Yeah.

1:03:02 I feel like I feel Yeah, I agree.

1:03:04 I agree that like it gives you like um a thing to talk about,

1:03:08 but I feel like there's when people ask me about like content and like what's

1:03:13 a guess some advice to to whatever and grow my channel and all this other stuff.

1:03:17 I think that like we all have we all have stories, you know?

1:03:21 I just feel like we're so we're so

1:03:24 for so long you're you're to you tell yourself like your story doesn't matter,

1:03:28 right?

1:03:28 Yeah.

1:03:28 you know, like there's if you just worked at like Staples for 20 years, I mean,

1:03:34 it's it's a different story,

1:03:36 but you have you have something, you know, and I just that's that's my thing.

1:03:40 Like if people telling their stories like literally changed and saved my life,

1:03:47 you know, in the rooms at AA.

1:03:48 So, it's like that's why I and it put mine forward, right?

1:03:52 And it probably wasn't like what people

1:03:54 would would categorize as an amazing story.

1:03:58 Yeah.

1:03:58 But it's their story.

1:04:00 Yeah.

1:04:00 So I you know what it run when I did these books I didn't think I had

1:04:05 anything worth a book.

1:04:08 Yeah.

1:04:07 So it's kind of the same thing

1:04:09 and the my publishers convinced me that oh no this is this is good.

1:04:13 People would enjoy this and I'm like I doubt it.

1:04:16 So it's it's just that and it's like but once you find a hobby or a thing

1:04:21 then it's like that can be like the canvas

1:04:24 that likes that let you start telling that story cuz

1:04:26 it doesn't always have to be like my story isn't

1:04:28 necessarily about running you know like I just do that

1:04:31 but then because I do that you know if I was like bowling and I

1:04:35 love that or whatever I would probably

1:04:36 somehow be doing the same storytelling kind

1:04:39 of through bowling you know and I just like whatever your hobby is or whatever

1:04:43 your thing is to me um it's easier for I guess me to say or whatever,

1:04:49 but I feel like I'd rather have a smaller following and like

1:04:52 all of and everybody that sees my stuff is like feel something and

1:04:56 resonates because that story seems unique and and it resonates with them

1:05:00 then like have um no story and just kind of like Yeah.

1:05:06 You know, just turnurning out a thing.

1:05:07 Yeah.

1:05:07 Just just to appeal to followers.

1:05:10 And but then there's people that have both.

1:05:11 Yeah.

1:05:11 Which is amazing.

1:05:12 and and those are those are people that like

1:05:16 that make change in in really cool ways.

1:05:21 Um NE I had a question for you too.

1:05:22 So, it's like you you've created this thing um and you know,

1:05:27 you start off and we're on the we're on the panel or in the pod and you're like,

1:05:30 you know, I'm a bow hunter first and then but then from my view,

1:05:34 you're all the you know, you're you're a runner, you know,

1:05:37 and but you've built this whole thing based

1:05:39 off of like who you are at your core,

1:05:40 which is a which is a bow runner and a a bow hunter.

1:05:43 But how do you know as you've built this thing and I'm sure people

1:05:48 reach out to you for so many different ways cuz you you talk about struggle,

1:05:51 you talk about keep hammering and all these other things,

1:05:53 but what's like one thing that like you feel

1:05:57 that you continually tell people about like how you got

1:06:00 to this point that maybe people like overlook like how

1:06:04 do you become like camera hands that people don't know?

1:06:08 Uh it's just not quitting.

1:06:10 It's just you know I had a passion.

1:06:12 and it was bow hunting and I was obsessed with it and then I just haven't quit.

1:06:17 Like everything I've done even with running was to help me in bow hunting.

1:06:21 And so what I would say is no matter sometimes it takes a long

1:06:27 time like I did this for decades before really anybody knew who I was, right?

1:06:33 And if you want that immediate or the the you know I mean immediate returns

1:06:39 or uh um the quick fix or it it's just probably not going to happen.

1:06:45 So but if you're willing to put your head down and just get to work and grind

1:06:49 and uh you know stay true to I guess your passions and just the hard

1:06:57 work and not take shortcuts then yeah you

1:07:00 can you can turn it into something special.

1:07:02 But like even the running today was a great example of my PR.

1:07:06 I've been doing this for 50 years, right?

1:07:09 I just haven't quit.

1:07:10 So how how does somebody get faster after 50 years?

1:07:15 Just got to keep going to work.

1:07:18 Just got to keep putting in the work.

1:07:19 And and so that's the the only reason why I've

1:07:22 had success in anything is I just don't quit.

1:07:26 Like there's a lot of people like I went to school with better athletes

1:07:30 obviously smarter obviously smart is great

1:07:33 connect more connected their family had more money but I just never quit

1:07:39 and so I've I've you know passed up all of them but they had all the advantage

1:07:45 but it's just it's hard to

1:07:48 you know people just want these this these results too fast and they give up

1:07:52 on things before because they don't get And who knows what it could have led to.

1:07:58 So like another question I guess a followup for that like just like how

1:08:01 running for you you know you did this all these years and then but you

1:08:06 made like you made a switch you changed something you know like you didn't just

1:08:09 continue to do you you you didn't quit but you you made a a pivot.

1:08:16 Mhm.

1:08:14 And but I'd imagine like for we've all had

1:08:18 a moment where like we're we're sticking to the plan.

1:08:21 or doing the thing, but maybe when other people would

1:08:25 just stick to that and not necessarily learn or change, right?

1:08:29 That little shift is, you know, essentially, you know, the 239.

1:08:34 Yeah.

1:08:34 Yeah.

1:08:35 And so I think it's important to keep hammering and keep pushing,

1:08:40 but then there's also like those moments where

1:08:42 things align and you should listen to subtle changes,

1:08:45 like not quit or go the other direction,

1:08:47 but it's like maybe I should try this a little new way.

1:08:50 Yeah.

1:08:50 And when I think of that, um, when you bring that up,

1:08:53 it reminds me of like my buddy Joe Rogan.

1:08:56 He for years he's telling me to quit my job because I

1:08:59 had a full-time job just until I I retired three years ago.

1:09:04 I was I worked at the water and power company here.

1:09:07 I was a superintendent in the water division

1:09:10 and I worked there for 26 or 27 years.

1:09:15 So that's what I did.

1:09:16 And he's just like, "Dude," he goes,

1:09:17 "You need to quit that job." I'm like, "Job's the best job I've ever had.

1:09:22 How can I quit the best job I've ever had?

1:09:24 I'm making good money.

1:09:25 I'm I like leading men.

1:09:28 I like construction.

1:09:30 I like I was a buyer for 20 years, so I like numbers and buying and contracts.

1:09:37 Why would I quit that?

1:09:38 This is this is all I'm good at." And uh and then he's just like, "No." He goes,

1:09:43 "You you know, your podcast could do well.

1:09:46 you could just you'd be way more successful if

1:09:48 you didn't have to go that job every day.

1:09:51 And I didn't believe him for years.

1:09:52 And then finally I said, you know, got to where over at sub at Springfield

1:09:58 Utility Board when you're 55 you can retire

1:10:02 if you've been there I think 20 years

1:10:05 or something like that and get all your retirement.

1:10:08 So I made it till my 55th birthday.

1:10:11 That was my last day.

1:10:12 And uh so that was 3 years ago and then now this has happened.

1:10:16 So none of this would have happened without without that.

1:10:20 And if

1:10:21 if I would have quit that, I couldn't have went and taken jelly roll hunting.

1:10:25 I couldn't have went like all these like giant life-changing events

1:10:30 would never have happened because I had to be at work.

1:10:33 Yeah.

1:10:33 So that's an example of sometimes you just have to even

1:10:36 though nobody would blame me for not quitting that job.

1:10:40 Yeah.

1:10:40 because it it was a good job and a career and it provided,

1:10:44 you know, for my family.

1:10:46 So, nobody's saying you're an idiot for keeping that job,

1:10:49 but there was a better path and I just had to do it.

1:10:53 Yeah.

1:10:53 That kind of like it feels like my my TSP, the speed project experience.

1:10:57 So like my my the company I worked for all those years

1:10:59 was was changing and it had their they had to sell

1:11:02 or whatever and I got offered the same position at this next

1:11:08 company that was going to be buying ours you know

1:11:11 and this was in February of 2025 and TSP's a month away you know

1:11:16 cuz I'll be gone for how many other days from my to Las Vegas right

1:11:21 and they offered the position and they're like

1:11:23 as soon as you we're really excited to have you on whatever we'll get you back

1:11:26 on the road traveling again as much as you were

1:11:29 and you know like that whole like corporate thing

1:11:32 and I'm on the call like if they could see me I'm

1:11:34 like yo you are not saying what I need you to say

1:11:37 it's the last thing I want and then they're like you

1:11:39 got like 10 days PTO and I'm like 10 days like bro I'm about to I'm about to use

1:11:45 eight of them like next month and but that was like the vibe like it would

1:11:49 have been I guess like smart like for you know like

1:11:53 it have been smarter okay if I was like safe But I was able to like I just said,

1:11:58 "No, I'm okay." And and then I ran TSP the next year or like the next month.

1:12:04 And that, you know, we'll see how it's only a year ago now, but we'll see.

1:12:08 It feels like it's changed my life a lot, you know, like

1:12:11 um not just in not having the job,

1:12:12 but doing something that's like way out of out of the ballpark for me,

1:12:17 you know, originally.

1:12:18 And now I'm, you know, running the western western states in Amazing, dude.

1:12:22 What nine weeks?

1:12:22 I love to see it.

1:12:23 Yeah.

1:12:24 So it's like crushing it.

1:12:25 Yeah.

1:12:25 So, I guess the only reason I asked that cuz I knew you're I knew it would be,

1:12:28 you know, you know, next next, keep pushing, but then at the same time,

1:12:32 it's like you you've made you've obviously made

1:12:34 smart decisions or changes along the way that that

1:12:37 I think people think that a lot of the people

1:12:40 that are successful in like high-flying and stuff

1:12:42 like that that they stick to one thing

1:12:45 and they just hammer it home and then you're like,

1:12:48 but I've been doing this for how many years?

1:12:49 Nothing's happened.

1:12:50 It's like, what things have you passed up

1:12:52 along the way that could have been little deviations?

1:12:54 That's true.

1:12:54 Yeah, that's that's an actual that's a wrinkle I wasn't considering.

1:12:59 Um I was just thinking about Do you have merch?

1:13:03 Um I I I don't yet.

1:13:05 I've had merch in the past.

1:13:07 Okay.

1:13:07 Um I've had like little drops here and there that that worked out.

1:13:10 Um Um cuz I So my podcast, the Tommy Run Show,

1:13:13 started off as the Run Eat Sleep Show.

1:13:15 Yeah.

1:13:15 And I was just talking to runners like just back toback

1:13:17 like that's how I interview like Sarah Hall, stuff like that.

1:13:20 Um, and I uh I had a shirt that said run, eat, sleep, repeat on it.

1:13:26 So, like that was my merch at the time.

1:13:28 But I think with this new um ultra world thing,

1:13:31 I have something kind of brewing that I'm excited about.

1:13:34 Well, you got to look, you know, you got a unique look.

1:13:36 You can you can market that for sure.

1:13:38 Yeah, for sure.

1:13:39 I'm trying to.

1:13:40 Yeah.

1:13:40 No, you you got you got what it I mean,

1:13:42 dude, you could you are blowing up and I love it.

1:13:44 I appreciate that.

1:13:45 I didn't you know, this wasn't planned.

1:13:48 this just kind of happened organically just because I was

1:13:51 over there then hey want to be on the pod

1:13:53 saw you all day today was just it's just

1:13:55 awesome I'm super super grateful that you know I know

1:14:00 we we're out on the marathon course all day

1:14:02 this is the last sitting in that hard chair probably

1:14:05 is not the greatest thing to do right now

1:14:07 but I really appreciate you guys coming over in this time

1:14:10 no man I appreciate it was actually when the way you know it happened

1:14:13 we did the interview and then you were just kind of like right away like

1:14:16 hey you want to be on the pot and like I know I've seen podcast

1:14:18 before and and I've seen the guest you people that you have on the show

1:14:22 and it was to me I'm like you know even if we had

1:14:25 to like stay a little longer or something like that to be honest like I

1:14:29 don't think that you just like randomly asked people to be on the show

1:14:31 so it was an honor to be invited to come over so appreciate it man.

1:14:36 Oh yeah dude no I'm I'm I'm the pleasure is mine.

1:14:39 Did you have any questions?

1:14:40 Have a couple.

1:14:43 Okay.

1:14:45 We got referring to the crowd, you know.

1:14:48 These are going to be stupid questions and we usually cut them out.

1:14:51 I've got I've got a couple good ones.

1:14:52 He can barely speak.

1:14:55 Uh it it seems like there's kind of a um

1:14:59 a through thread of runners who are have been alcoholics or addicts.

1:15:04 and you guys kind of touched on it, but why do you think it is that so

1:15:08 many of them have a story where they've gotten sober

1:15:11 and they've turned to running um as their new fix

1:15:15 or the new thing that they're kind of addicted to?

1:15:18 Um I think that it's well I don't like to say addicted to it.

1:15:23 Um because like to me addiction is I've even heard like Rich Roll say

1:15:28 this a lot is like addiction is is takes from you you know it it's harmful.

1:15:32 It harms your family.

1:15:33 It harms you.

1:15:34 Um, and running is a it could be a passion or a hobby or a habit,

1:15:39 you know, more so than because it it I feel better.

1:15:43 I I feel my family is my kids are can be inspired by it

1:15:48 and and watch what I do and see

1:15:50 some it's an enhancement like a discipline, you know.

1:15:54 Um, but I think that u sobriety and and running

1:16:00 or movement that you that you like have to make

1:16:04 a decision to rededicate yourself to often um sometimes every day

1:16:08 you got to dedicate yourself to going to do the thing.

1:16:11 It feels a lot like um the the the um it feels like

1:16:20 kind of the grind of of maybe being uh an addict or an alcoholic,

1:16:26 but it's your choice.

1:16:29 Mhm.

1:16:29 You know, like you talked about like suffering in in a way.

1:16:32 And I I've always said like I'll never suffer

1:16:34 as as much as I did um in alcoholism as I you know the little suffering that I

1:16:40 got to deal with on the road or the trail.

1:16:42 But it's a choice and I feel like the way

1:16:44 that you can decide to go for a run and suffer

1:16:47 a bit and feel better at the end versus not

1:16:50 being able to control it and then just suffering every day.

1:16:53 I I feel like something about that that feeling

1:16:56 of choosing to suffer um is attractive to people

1:17:02 who have suffered for so long kind

1:17:05 of at the hands or at the power of something else their addiction.

1:17:08 Yeah.

1:17:08 you know, and so I think it's it's a it's a comfort

1:17:12 to be able to go someplace for a little while and get close

1:17:16 to that and step away from it and feel and be done

1:17:20 with it and feel better and then get to do it again tomorrow.

1:17:23 Like they control the the terms of it.

1:17:25 Yeah.

1:17:25 Like I can I chose it cuz like drinking sometimes you're not even

1:17:29 No, there's you don't control it.

1:17:31 Yeah.

1:17:31 I don't Yeah.

1:17:31 I think some people may be able to control that thing, but I can't.

1:17:35 And I know that I had no I had no control over that.

1:17:38 And the the cho the the times that I drank and the in the choices to drink in mo

1:17:45 in times and moments when I could I could

1:17:47 feel like when I would touch things with my fingers,

1:17:50 I would I it I'd feel it like a half a second later.

1:17:53 And I was only 33.

1:17:55 I was on high blood pressure medicine, you know.

1:17:58 I could I would I could feel my blood pressure was getting higher.

1:18:01 Like my face would kind of go a little numb.

1:18:03 My fingers would go a little numb.

1:18:05 Yeah.

1:18:04 And I was still drinking through that,

1:18:06 you know, and but now I get to decide to go suffer a bit

1:18:10 for a six mile run or a 10 mile run or a 20 or whatever.

1:18:13 And I feel good after.

1:18:15 Um and I think that for some reason those two things just kind of go

1:18:20 well together for for folks that like

1:18:22 struggle through something for a long time.

1:18:24 That makes sense.

1:18:26 Um, have you talked to Max Jolof yet?

1:18:29 I've I've met Max.

1:18:30 I haven't t like sat down and talked to him yet,

1:18:32 but I I watched The King of Moab like a few times when I was training

1:18:36 for I was training for TSV and I'm

1:18:38 just like watching that like like over and over.

1:18:40 It's like a regular movie.

1:18:42 Yeah, it is.

1:18:42 It's good.

1:18:43 I like the Beach Kid, too.

1:18:45 Yeah, me too.

1:18:45 Yeah.

1:18:45 Yeah, that was the first one I think I saw.

1:18:46 And then I saw King of Moab and I'm like, "Okay, this is cool." Like,

1:18:49 and he I think he's talking about sobriety more and more, so that's good.

1:18:53 Yeah, that I saw your tattoo on your hand and so I was like uh this one.

1:18:58 Yeah.

1:18:57 Oh, so this one.

1:18:58 So if I could just So this one

1:19:01 my um my best friends he uh I met him when I was like 12, bro.

1:19:04 Like and we just like immediately were like like literally brothers, you know,

1:19:08 and um we went through a bunch of random[ __] together um over the years.

1:19:15 and he passed in um on March 15th of of of last last March

1:19:22 in 2025 like a week before I went off to run from LA to Vegas.

1:19:27 So um and he passed essentially, you know,

1:19:29 or potentially because of um a substance abuse

1:19:34 and I didn't know what he was going through, you know,

1:19:37 and it it kind of uh it it hit me really hard.

1:19:39 So I got this tat.

1:19:40 It's like a the the Celtic symbol for brotherhood or friendship.

1:19:44 Mhm.

1:19:44 And I got this tattoo right before I went to to to um to run across the desert.

1:19:48 We were in Death Valley on the Saturday he was born, you know.

1:19:51 I mean, not born, buried.

1:19:55 Yeah.

1:19:54 Um and it just that just I'm I'm glad you kind of like pointed that out, but

1:19:59 I'm sorry we lost that battle.

1:20:01 Yeah.

1:20:01 Yeah.

1:20:02 It's um I mean it sucks, but then you know like it kind of made

1:20:06 me um like remember what I got sober for too.

1:20:11 Yeah.

1:20:11 And it isn't just for a selfish pursuit of just like feeling good.

1:20:15 It's like I should be able to tap in and tell

1:20:18 the stories and continue to try to actually help people,

1:20:21 you know, and not just use it as like some type of stick or whatever, right?

1:20:24 So yeah, that's true.

1:20:26 That's that's u good perspective.

1:20:29 Did you have another one?

1:20:29 Yeah, one more.

1:20:31 So, you had mentioned, you know, you could have never dreamed of what this had

1:20:34 turned into uh years ago when you started it.

1:20:37 So, now that you're here,

1:20:39 where do you draw that line of dreaming too big and not dreaming enough?

1:20:43 Oh, man.

1:20:44 I don't think that there's I don't think that there's really anything,

1:20:48 you know, there's never a dream that's too big.

1:20:51 I don't feel um I just feel like the bigger your dream is,

1:20:56 the more you'll just have to put action or work or or process behind it.

1:21:02 And I think that we all skewed towards probably not dreaming enough.

1:21:07 Mhm.

1:21:08 And like the concept of like I don't have a story to tell.

1:21:11 Yeah.

1:21:11 But it's I think if we maybe just step away

1:21:16 a little bit of from the thing that we do every day

1:21:20 and like the grind that we kind of have to put

1:21:22 ourselves through or whether it's responsibilities or a job or whatever.

1:21:26 If you take a step back from those things,

1:21:29 you have a little more room to like see potentially where

1:21:32 the dream could be if you don't feel like you have one.

1:21:35 Um or you don't have big enough ones.

1:21:37 Um, but for me, like I want I have to kind of remind myself,

1:21:42 not that I'm like that guy, but I mean, I think I am sometimes.

1:21:46 Um, but you have to kind of remind yourself what you want to do with this life.

1:21:55 That's what for for me, I guess I have to remind myself what I want to do

1:21:59 and the things that I'd like to do.

1:22:01 And I'd like to um create more in the world and touch

1:22:07 more people in the world and leave an impact that that matters.

1:22:14 And so I have to remind myself to dream bigger.

1:22:18 Um it because it just I'm blessed to be here.

1:22:23 Like I literally I know for sure I wouldn't be here, you know?

1:22:27 So, who am I to not like remind myself like, bro, like

1:22:33 go circle the moon or something, you know what I mean?

1:22:35 I I have no desire to go around the moon.

1:22:38 Tommy runs the movie.

1:22:40 That's what I see, bro.

1:22:41 I mean, we got to do a book first.

1:22:44 A book.

1:22:44 A book's easy.

1:22:45 Yeah.

1:22:45 I mean, you got you got you're I mean, you're so insightful and like you Okay.

1:22:51 It's no surprise that you're good at conversation and talking to people

1:22:56 and and putting things in perspective cuz you you have a gift.

1:23:00 You are you are really Yeah.

1:23:03 I mean, you you're good.

1:23:05 So, I'm not surprised at the success,

1:23:07 but I'm also not surprised I won't be surprised

1:23:10 on where it goes cuz I just feel like it's Yeah.

1:23:13 You have what it takes.

1:23:14 Um appreciate that, babe.

1:23:16 Yeah.

1:23:16 No, this this has been this has been amazing.

1:23:19 I'm super grateful.

1:23:20 Uh, you're good, James?

1:23:23 Yeah.

1:23:24 Okay.

1:23:23 No more, James.

1:23:25 Oh my gosh, dude.

1:23:27 I just want to say thank you, man.

1:23:28 Thank you for Appreciate it, man.

1:23:30 For doing this, making time.

1:23:31 I know you guys want to just get out of here and relax.

1:23:35 I I get it.

1:23:36 But I'm super grateful.

1:23:37 We got We got an afterparty to go to, man.

1:23:39 Are you?

1:23:39 I don't know.

1:23:42 Oh, the only time I go to parties is like literally at marathons.

1:23:45 Like, if I'm at home Yeah.

1:23:47 just invite me cuz I want to be invited.

1:23:49 But I may actually have something to do, you know.

1:23:53 Yeah.

1:23:54 No.

1:23:54 Well, get to that after party.

1:23:56 Thank you.

1:23:56 Um Yeah.

1:23:58 Appreciate it.

1:23:58 Appreciate you, man.

1:23:59 Thanks so much.

1:23:59 Keep hammering, guys.