Extended interview: Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch

0:00 I thought that if it's all right with you,

0:02 we would start by how you start the book.

0:06 All right.

0:06 I was hoping you might just read that for us.

0:08 Sure.

0:10 You will never know how much it

0:11 cost the present generation to preserve your freedom.

0:15 I hope you will make good use of it.

0:17 John Adams.

0:19 Why'd you start the book with that quote?

0:21 We wanted to show the kids the kind of courage

0:23 it takes not just to realize the Declaration's promises,

0:28 begin to realize them through the revolution,

0:30 but to carry them forward and to realize them in our own times.

0:34 Do you think that we've taken some of those sacrifices for granted?

0:38 Yes.

0:38 I I think that we take our life,

0:42 liberty, property rights, the right to rule ourselves,

0:47 and we don't realize that most people through history did not have those rights.

0:53 Most people in the world today don't have those rights.

0:57 And it wasn't inevitable, either.

1:00 Right?

1:01 We almost lost the revolution.

1:03 The vote for the Declaration of Independence was initially not unanimous.

1:08 One of the Declaration's three big ideas

1:10 that we're all created equal, all of us,

1:14 that we have rights that are given to us by God,

1:17 not government, and that we have the right to rule ourselves.

1:20 And yes, we take those things as given.

1:22 We take them as the air we breathe, but they're not.

1:25 They don't preserve themselves.

1:26 We're not a nation united by religion or by culture, by heritage.

1:32 That's our creed.

1:34 And each generation has to choose that as their creed.

1:37 And it has to be passed on for each generation to choose it anew.

1:42 And I want kids today to see the challenge they face.

1:46 The torch is about to pass to their hands.

1:48 Are they going to carry it?

1:50 Are they going to drop it?

1:51 The ideals in the foundation set in the Declaration paved

1:54 the way for women to vote, the end of slavery.

1:58 Yes.

1:58 Why do you think people don't appreciate that?

2:01 Nations across the world have used it

2:03 as a model of their own because it is perfect.

2:06 The ideas are perfect.

2:08 Why do we take it for granted?

2:10 We don't teach the kind of civic virtues

2:13 that are necessary for a republic to sustain itself.

2:17 Do you worry about that?

2:18 Sure, I worry about that.

2:20 More so now than ever?

2:21 Well, I try to remind myself that democracies are supposed to be a messy place.

2:30 All right.

2:31 That we're supposed to disagree.

2:33 But you know, even America 250 is divided.

2:37 We've got competing events.

2:38 How did we get to this place?

2:40 we've all What I guess I'm saying is we've always been that place.

2:44 Am I here to tell you that it's uh no worse um No,

2:49 I'm not here to tell you that.

2:50 But we're not living through the American Civil War.

2:53 We're not living through the Revolutionary War.

2:56 So, yeah, we have our hard times,

2:58 but they feel hard to us cuz we're living them.

3:00 I do feel like there's a a moment now where people feel like hopeless,

3:05 like our country is in trouble.

3:07 And what I say way?

3:09 No, I don't.

3:10 I mean, Jan, when when I look at young people and talk to young people,

3:13 I say you are the luckiest people alive.

3:17 Not just now, in the history of the world.

3:21 Where would you rather have been born and when would you rather have been born?

3:26 You live in the freest nation in the world, in the history of the world.

3:30 Is it perfect?

3:31 No.

3:32 I'm not here to tell you it's perfect.

3:34 But I'm here to tell you it's awful good.

3:36 What is your goal here in doing this book

3:38 and and sitting down and doing these interviews?

3:41 to inspire young people to realize what a heritage

3:43 they have and what a responsibility they have.

3:45 Right?

3:46 And do I worry, Jan?

3:47 Yeah, of course I do.

3:48 I worry when I see that maybe 13% of eighth

3:54 graders are proficient in American history, 22% in civics.

3:58 Of course I worry.

3:59 I worry about America fulfilling its own promise.

4:03 Right?

4:04 And we are our own worst enemies.

4:06 And but are these things fixable?

4:08 Of course they're fixable.

4:09 Of course they're fixable.

4:11 Teachers, parents, children, we can do this.

4:14 You know, polls show that most Americans have lost faith in their institutions.

4:19 Does that trouble you?

4:22 I think that same thing was true again back back in 1776.

4:26 Only 40% of Americans wanted to declare independence.

4:30 We are a disagreeable lot.

4:33 We're also incredibly litigious.

4:35 I mean, 50 million people file lawsuits in this country every year.

4:38 Yeah, that's part of the American culture.

4:41 That's part of who we are.

4:42 What about at the court?

4:43 I've covered the court a long time.

4:46 And it does seem more divided now.

4:48 I do see justices writing a little

4:52 differently and saying things publicly a little differently.

4:55 Do you feel that at the court?

4:58 Do we disagree on hard cases?

5:00 Yes, Jan, we do.

5:02 You give us the 70 hardest cases in the entire American legal system every year.

5:08 That's our diet.

5:09 There are nine of us appointed by five

5:12 different presidents over the course of 30 years.

5:16 Can you get nine of your best friends to agree on where to go to lunch?

5:20 Okay.

5:20 All right.

5:20 So, you give us those 70 cases, we're unanimous about 40% of the time.

5:26 Where lower court judges have

5:27 Sometimes higher than that.

5:29 agreed.

5:29 How does that happen?

5:30 It happens cuz we listen to one another.

5:32 Go around the room, each of us has our say.

5:35 I've never heard a voice raised in the conference room.

5:38 Never.

5:38 Never.

5:39 And wait for it.

5:40 In 1945, the numbers were almost exactly the same what I've given you.

5:45 Nothing has changed around here.

5:47 Nothing.

5:48 So, if we're doing as well as they did then, I think we're doing okay.

5:52 And for whatever whatever disagreements we have about law, and you're right,

5:57 uh Justice Breyer is never going to convince me not to be an originalist.

6:00 Okay?

6:01 It's not going to happen.

6:02 What unites us far outstrips what divides us.

6:06 Each of my colleagues loves the Declaration of Independence.

6:10 Loves the Constitution of the United States and is eager

6:13 for young people to take up the challenge to learn about them.

6:16 What are some of those things that you do that we

6:19 don't see at the court where you do have agreement?

6:22 Yeah, I often think that how much I'd like for you

6:25 to have some of these cameras in our conference room.

6:28 I would like that, too.

6:29 you would.

6:31 [laughter] I'm sure you would.

6:31 And even in the courtroom.

6:32 It would be a terrible idea in in the conference room

6:35 because the conference room's where we speak most freely about law.

6:38 That's where the nine of you sit around the table,

6:40 no law clerks, no secretaries, just the nine of you.

6:43 That's right.

6:43 It's just the nine of us.

6:45 And it's where we're talking about the case after we've heard argument,

6:48 read briefs, and done all our homework.

6:51 And we listen.

6:53 And it goes around one by one.

6:55 You don't interrupt one another.

6:57 You listen.

6:59 Everybody gets their say.

7:01 And it's remarkable as as the conversation progresses,

7:05 you'll see the idea getting narrower to the nub

7:09 of the issue to where where we can all find some agreement.

7:13 And often times I walk into the conference room

7:15 thinking I don't know where this thing's going to land,

7:17 what the and it winds up nine to oh.

7:19 Okay.

7:20 40 to 50% of the time.

7:21 Yeah, right.

7:22 So much.

7:23 And if you had a camera and the American

7:26 people could see that, I think they'd be enormously proud.

7:32 There's something magical about it.

7:35 Magical.

7:38 It works.

7:39 We're very different people from very different parts of the country

7:42 who believe in how to interpret law very differently.

7:45 Not politics, law.

7:47 Originalism versus living constitutionalism, textualism versus purposivism,

7:51 a bunch of isms that nobody cares about,

7:53 but they have to do with how we view our jobs.

7:55 We view them differently.

7:57 But it works.

7:58 It's worked for 250 years.

8:01 You know, the president is constantly taking shots

8:03 at the court and especially the three of you.

8:06 Uh and you because you off I mean,

8:08 there are times where you are not in lockstep, as you've said.

8:12 Um he is constantly tweeting things.

8:14 The other day he said uh you're showing very little

8:17 loyalty to the man who appointed the three of you.

8:22 I mean, just Does a justice owe a president loyalty?

8:26 No.

8:25 My loyalty is the Constitution, the laws of the United States.

8:29 That's the oath I took.

8:32 It's really just that simple.

8:34 Yeah, there's a reason why our Constitution is set up the way it is, right?

8:38 Think about it.

8:39 You You've given nine old people uh life tenure.

8:44 But you give them life tenure if you believe their job is only to apply

8:47 the law fairly without regard to anybody or anything

8:50 else or politics or any of the noise.

8:54 And then they can be immune from external forces.

8:57 it.

8:57 Yeah.

8:58 That's why the Constitution is set up the way it is with respect to judges,

9:02 and I think it works.

9:04 And so, do I care people say left, right, center about me?

9:07 Nah.

9:08 There's been tremendous pushback.

9:09 And now we have calls for reform.

9:12 We have calls for additional justices.

9:14 This a court of nine.

9:15 Uh is that the way it should be?

9:18 It's not always been that way.

9:19 We've had nine since about 1860-something.

9:23 And it's worked reasonably well, as Ruth Bader Ginsburg said.

9:27 It's like all of our institutions that we've been talking about here.

9:30 Do you know their history?

9:32 You may have some great ideas about reforming things, and they might be right.

9:36 But make sure you know what you're reforming before you tinker with it.

9:40 Cuz once you start tinkering

9:42 And once you start tinkering, you expect other people to tinker.

9:45 And then where does it end?

9:46 Same with the issue of life tenure.

9:49 I mean, we've seen term limits proposed.

9:52 Sure.

9:52 Sure.

9:53 All anything.

9:54 The Constitution all of those decisions were made thoughtfully and for reasons.

9:59 If you don't know them, if you haven't thought about them

10:01 and understood their history and the consequences,

10:04 be careful about what genies you let out of the bottles.

10:08 Well, let me just get back to the children's book.

10:10 Why are justices writing children's books now?

10:13 You're not the only one.

10:14 No, I'm I take my inspiration from Sandra Day O'Connor,

10:17 who during her tenure in the court, uh fellow Westerner,

10:21 became concerned about the state of civic

10:23 education in this country and decided dang it,

10:26 she's going to do something about it.

10:28 And she wrote children's books and she set up an organization to teach children.

10:32 And I can't pretend I'm Sandra Day O'Connor, all right?

10:35 Nobody is.

10:36 But I sure admired her.

10:38 And so I guess I'm taking a bit of a cue from her.

10:40 And trying to take that message

10:42 that civics are important to the American people, starting with the kids.

10:46 Yeah.

10:47 That's right.

10:48 And I think that's something if you pulled the nine

10:50 of us in our conference room, we'd all agree on.

10:53 You would be unanimous on the importance of civics.

10:56 Yeah, I believe so.