What's Going on with Windows Laptops?

0:00 So, recent video on the channel will be live by the time

0:03 you see this, which is just talking about the Windows laptop problem.

0:07 This was inspired by the two Mac laptops

0:11 that I've tested most recently, the MacBook Neo,

0:13 their $599/ $499 mid-range fighter,

0:17 and the M5 Max MacBook Pro, which I've also tested.

0:21 I was running all my benchmarks on it.

0:23 It had like 18,000 MB per second SSD read and write speeds, which is crazy.

0:28 It has benchmarked multi-core higher than any other Mac ever,

0:32 including the Mac Pro and M3 Ultra.

0:34 It has GPU scores matching M3 Ultra, which is insane.

0:37 This is a Max chip in a laptop.

0:39 So, I'm actually thinking like this is now a laptop

0:43 that could actually replace my Mac Pro and be my desktop.

0:47 I might be that guy at some point.

0:50 But, having all these thoughts also made me think,

0:53 "Well, what's going on in Windows land?

0:54 Like, what is actually the equivalent of, you know,

0:57 the highest-end laptop you could get,

0:58 and could it be the desktop that I choose to use?

1:00 How good are those laptops?" And so,

1:02 that had me digging into like, "Okay, what's going on with XPS?

1:06 What's going on with Razer Blades?

1:08 What's going on also with the Neo competitors?"

1:09 I bought a $550 Acer laptop, we tested that.

1:13 And essentially, conclusion I came to was

1:15 Apple's Apple Silicon advantage and their vertical integration

1:19 Yeah.

1:19 is a huge advantage at the high end for efficiency and performance.

1:22 And it turns out to also be a huge advantage at the low end for cost.

1:27 Yeah.

1:27 And on the cherry on top is that Apple doesn't actually really

1:30 need to make a ton of money on Neos on the hardware margin The services.

1:35 because it is it's basically, as I said in the video,

1:37 like a Trojan horse for new Apple customers,

1:42 which then will spend way more on software, on services, on Apple Care,

1:47 on Apple TV, on Apple Creative Studio, all these other things.

1:50 So, they don't have to make the $100 on the hardware margin,

1:54 but they will make a ton of money over time

1:55 on just getting a new person to be a Mac user.

1:58 This is the entire Chromebook play.

2:00 It was get people on Google services when they're 5 years old,

2:03 so they they will use services for the rest of their life.

2:06 Yeah.

2:07 Yeah.

2:07 So, it was interesting to sort of see that in real time

2:10 and just like put the machines next to each other and be like,

2:12 "Oh, yeah, they they can make just

2:13 a straight-up better laptop for the same price,

2:16 and that's going to get people to become first-time Mac people."

2:19 I mean, a Windows computer has parts from a ton of different companies,

2:23 and every single one of those companies has to make margin.

2:27 Mhm.

2:26 That's literally the main problem.

2:29 off the riff, like just having to do that, and that But, it's

2:33 it's the same it's like similar with Android phones,

2:35 it's similar with uh tablets.

2:38 It's just like what Apple has the full integration through,

2:40 they've there's a benefit there.

2:41 Even just like making software on mobile, right?

2:44 Like we see all the time, if you're making iOS software, Mhm.

2:48 you don't have to do it that hard,

2:50 but if you're making Android software, it has to fit

2:53 a thousand a hun- like thousands of thousands of tens

2:56 of thousands of different like form factors of phones,

2:59 resolutions, and aspect ratios.

3:00 has been so hardcore about just trying to make

3:02 Android so flexible with screen sizes and stuff.

3:05 And that's part of the advantage, right?

3:06 Is there is a choice.

3:07 Like in Android land, if I really, really, really care about having 8K video,

3:12 well, there is no iPhone that can do that.

3:14 So, if I just want to choose a phone that can shoot 8K video,

3:16 you can find that in Android land.

3:18 You can find all sorts of other different things you might care about,

3:20 like a folding screen or whatever, in Android land.

3:24 Yeah.

3:24 But, the couple of phones that Apple

3:25 makes are like locked in, super tightly integrated,

3:28 and you might not be super used to the way they do things,

3:31 but they do it the same way every single time,

3:33 so you you kind of just get used to that when you're in that ecosystem.

3:37 Yeah.

3:37 And yeah, that's kind of the same thing with Windows.

3:38 Now, in this sort of latest generation, this is a nuance of it, is yes,

3:43 you depend on all these different companies who make

3:46 the parts to your computer to all make their margin, but also make a good piece.

3:51 You have to have, to make a great Windows laptop,

3:54 several different companies all executing and firing on cylinders

3:57 at the same time for your one computer to be good.

4:00 So, if you're Dell and you make the XPS like I showed,

4:03 you're also depending on Intel to be making

4:06 a good chip at that time, which they are.

4:08 And, you know, you're Dell,

4:10 you have to make a good computer with a good screen

4:12 and a good keyboard and all that stuff, which they are.

4:14 And you need Windows to be good.

4:19 I'm fine with Windows.

4:21 So, Windows 11 is in kind of a weird

4:22 place because not everybody's loving Windows 11.

4:24 I do not.

4:26 I haven't used Windows since Windows 10 and I was

4:29 jumping into Windows 11 again and I set up this XPS.

4:31 It took me 45 minutes to set it up.

4:33 The setup is Yeah, sufferable.

4:35 There were mandatory downloading updates and stuff.

4:37 Once I got through the updates,

4:38 it was like sign into this, sign into that, download Microsoft 365,

4:41 do you want to use Copilot,

4:42 do you want Recall on, do you want all these other things?

4:44 And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

4:46 All this stuff it was asking me.

4:47 And then I finally got into my clean install of Windows

4:49 and then I got a pop-up from McAfee to be installed.

4:52 And this is this is the other thing.

4:53 The the only other way that these manufacturers

4:55 that make the laptops can make the laptops cheap enough

4:59 to even be competitive at all is that they

5:00 have to put a bunch of bloatware on it.

5:02 They have to get more?

5:03 Yeah, I mean, we see this on Android phones, too.

5:05 Like the Android phones that come

5:06 with Facebook installed and come with Instagram installed.

5:08 They don't do that out of the kindness of their heart.

5:10 They do that because Meta pays them to do that.

5:14 Mhm.

5:13 So, yeah, it's just it's not a good situation for anybody else.

5:18 Yeah.

5:17 And Microsoft really they tried to do the vertical integration with the Surface,

5:21 but I just they're such a B2B company that it's such an afterthought for them.

5:25 We saw this with the Pixel for a very long time.

5:27 Then the Nexus program, the Pixel.

5:29 Now Tensor.

5:30 Google didn't really care about the Pixel and they still don't really

5:33 get They're trying to care more and the Pixels are really good now.

5:37 They're really, really good now.

5:38 But it still doesn't have quite the level

5:41 of vertical integration that they would like.

5:43 And even if they achieved it,

5:44 they're in this weird spot where they make Android for everyone else.

5:48 So, they're competing against all of that.

5:52 Yeah.

5:52 While also providing them with the OS.

5:53 So, this happens in in Google land because they

5:57 make the Pixel and Tensor and they're all vertically integrated.

5:59 And they'll give the Pixel exclusive Android features

6:01 and now they're competing against every other Android phone.

6:03 Same thing happened with Windows and Microsoft

6:07 and Surface and making this beautifully,

6:09 ideally, very vertically integrated thing.

6:10 Now, you're competing against all the other

6:12 OEMs trying to make a good Windows machines.

6:15 And maybe that's like a lead by example type thing,

6:17 but it just it never went well.

6:20 Yeah.

6:19 And the funny thing about that the the Google Android features thing is

6:22 that they also want to make Android a popular OS to compete with iOS.

6:27 And so, they have to eventually give a lot

6:29 of these features to the the broader Android ecosystem.

6:32 And that's why Google does this awkward thing where they

6:34 have Pixel exclusive features for like 2 months and then

6:36 it goes to every other Android phone because they

6:39 need other people to want to use Android in general.

6:41 And it's also why they had that weird

6:43 bromance with Samsung for such a long time.

6:46 Yeah.

6:45 Ellis, Ellis, you look like you really want to say something.

6:47 I know.

6:47 I've just been fighting a Windows PC all week.

6:50 And and like to be honest, I I it's all tinfoil hat stuff.

6:54 Like because it's a Windows PC that on paper has a really

6:58 good graphics card and a really good pro or you know,

7:00 good enough graphics card and a good enough processor.

7:03 But like and we didn't build this PC and it

7:06 it sort of is the things that, you know,

7:08 you I think you've been talking about, Marcus.

7:10 Like like it's for a video we're working on that involves this like

7:13 peripheral device that connects via USB 3.0 and it keeps crashing all the time.

7:18 And I couldn't figure out why it kept crashing.

7:21 And my working theory right now,

7:22 and I haven't like tested this, so again, it's tinfoil hat,

7:24 is that the USB 3.0 ports on this computer are just not USB 3.0 ports.

7:31 That that's my best guess.

7:32 Cuz when you And the USB 3.2 ports are USB 3.0 part ports.

7:37 And it's like there's no way the company who built this PC you know,

7:41 they didn't build the the ports.

7:43 They definitely got the the USB IO box like from

7:47 Yeah, from someone else.

7:48 But it's like that it's sort of what you're talking about.

7:50 It's like you need all or like for some reason

7:53 not a single Bluetooth keyboard will connect to this PC.

7:56 Not one.

7:57 There's there's one Logitech keyboard in the whole office

8:00 that will connect for 30 seconds and then immediately disconnect.

8:03 And the the rest of And it's not like I

8:05 haven't tried all 100 Bluetooth keyboards that are in the office.

8:09 there?

8:10 Where could those have come from?

8:11 Yeah, it's so it's I've just I This is all ringing very true to me.

8:14 shaped like a shoe.

8:15 Well, I was trying not to say cuz I didn't

8:16 I don't know if that any of these are the problems.

8:18 I don't want to out.

8:20 There's a chance like that computer doesn't get used very often.

8:23 There might be some driver updates that are in there that we haven't

8:25 like dug that deep into or like it was dormant for a while.

8:29 So Totally.

8:30 And I don't Some are probably that, but some are also like it

8:32 should be easy to figure out what those problems are.

8:34 Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to accuse anyone of counterfeit USB ports,

8:37 but I genuinely cannot I'm at the point now where I'm like,

8:41 why why does the USB 3.0 cable not get

8:45 USB 3.0 speeds until it's in the 3.2 port?

8:49 Why does the 3.0 port not give 3.0 speeds?

8:53 Yeah.

8:53 Yeah.

8:54 What?

8:55 Yeah.

8:55 Sorry, I was looking into the eyes of your hat for a second.

8:58 Yeah, I should probably address this.

9:00 This is Franklin, the mascot of the Philadelphia 76ers.

9:03 Thank you to fan of Michael for the sick hat.

9:05 I'm going to wear this all week.

9:06 Why do they have a cat as the mascot?

9:08 It's a dog.

9:08 And his name is Franklin.

9:10 That is a cat, a thousand percent a cat.

9:11 Isn't Franklin a turtle?

9:13 Yeah, Franklin is Benjamin Franklin, the founding father.

9:16 Which half of the things in Philadelphia

9:19 Ben- Benjamin Franklin was in fact

9:21 What number president was he?

9:23 He was president number six and he when he

9:25 signed the Declaration of Independence, it was a paw print.

9:28 Mhm.

9:28 He got that dog in him.

9:29 Cat print.

9:31 Um

9:31 Um

9:33 Yeah.

9:32 it back, I think the the best way It's just I didn't notice that.

9:39 I feel like the best way,

9:41 if you really want an example of the difference between like

9:43 the vertical integration in Apple

9:45 and the vertical integration in Android Windows,

9:47 go on r/apple and go on r/android and watch

9:51 everyone in Apple is just generally mad at the same

9:54 thing where everyone in Android is mad at each

9:56 other because even though they're all using Android,

9:58 they're all fans of different companies of phones and they all hate each other.

10:06 Yeah.

10:05 the wildest infighting ever and like now imagine all of those different

10:09 people need to work together and build something and it's just

10:12 And and to be fair, like

10:13 I'm a full Android and Windows user at home, by the way.

10:16 I only use Apple stuff Yeah.

10:18 I

10:18 I like Android better than iOS by far and there's a great piece by David Pierce.

10:23 He he tried to use Android for like the last 4 months and he

10:27 used a bunch of different phones and he really liked the Fairphone 6,

10:30 but it doesn't work on Verizon, so he couldn't do it.

10:32 But he went back to iOS because his conclusion

10:36 was effectively phones are app machines and iOS

10:40 has better apps and he relies on too many iOS apps to go back to Android,

10:44 which sucks cuz Android is a way better OS.

10:46 Well, I I want to play devil's advocate cuz as someone who's like fully Apple,

10:50 you know, ecosystemed up,

10:52 there are a lot of these like vertically integrated things in the Apple

10:56 world that are like not supported to the degree they should be.

11:00 Like Freeform has like six updates that they just need to add.

11:06 Like there's just no excuse why Freeform doesn't have these things,

11:09 but I just don't think they care enough about Freeform Yeah.

11:13 to do it, you know?

11:15 do.

11:14 And there's a or like why does the Apple Mail app still kind of blow?

11:19 Or like So, you know what I mean?

11:21 It sucks.

11:22 Yeah.

11:22 It's just when you're the default and you get to be the default thing for Right.

11:26 80% market share of the US, like why change?

11:28 Why update it?

11:29 Yeah, but like why is it so hard

11:31 to rotate something on the desktop version of free

11:34 form and why is it so hard to select

11:36 multiple objects on the mobile version of free form?

11:39 like to see the user base for free form.

11:41 It's me.

11:42 Yeah, it's just That's all I was saying.

11:45 Your average Apple user.

11:47 There's definitely some people who hate Apple screenshotting you

11:50 in the group chat right now like average Apple user.

11:54 There's also There's also it's kind of like either that or the massive

11:59 graveyard of stuff that Google tries and then just kills a year later.

12:03 So it's like would I rather have the kind of weak updates but at least

12:06 it works the same way every time on one side of the fence or like

12:11 Google launching an app and me going I don't think I want to switch

12:13 to this because I don't trust them to even keep this alive for a year.

12:16 Rip inbox, bro.

12:17 Yeah, so true.

12:18 So it yeah, that's There's choice on one side

12:20 but there's the upside and downside of that choice.

12:23 Also there's at least six free form users because there are several

12:26 things that I force my friends to do on free form with me.

12:29 So my plan Plan vacations Free form is excellent for that.

12:32 This whole conversation is also negating people who

12:35 have like very specific needs that software-wise or like

12:39 needs to be on a Windows machine needs to be on Android needs to be on iOS.

12:42 Like we're talking outside of that because clearly they they have one option.

12:46 Almost every business distributes Windows computers.

12:49 I think it's a big part of the equation for like

12:51 why they are where they are especially cuz like you talk

12:53 about like David having like he come from an iPhone so

12:56 he's already plugged in and uses a lot of iPhone only apps.

12:59 Yeah.

12:59 There's a lot of people who play a certain game that you can't play on Mac

13:02 or there are people who use certain softwares

13:03 for their business that are just only Windows XP.

13:07 Like that that's a real thing where okay,

13:09 now Windows XP has a massive market share because that's still stable

13:11 and that's the thing that we use and that's where our apps are.

13:13 So like if your dependencies or you're plugged into one specific thing like

13:17 I'm a Mac user I you're not because I switched to Final Cut Pro.

13:23 Yeah.

13:22 That is why I started using a Mac.

13:25 Yeah.

13:25 And now here we are a decade later and I'm in the ecosystem and they got me.

13:29 Yeah.

13:29 That's that's the point of Neo.

13:30 That's the point of like all these other, you know,

13:32 feelers is to just get a device in front of you that gives you options

13:37 and hopefully you like one of those things

13:39 and then you are sucked into that ecosystem.

13:40 Yeah, I mean I I was the lead reviewer at Android Authority for 5 years.

13:44 I didn't use an iPhone until the iPhone 13 when I reviewed it

13:47 and I didn't switch to an iPhone until the iPhone 15 because I had USBC.

13:51 I would have never touched an Apple device

13:53 and all of my dependencies were in Android.

13:55 Like I I could use my world.

13:57 People were Nobody texted cuz when I lived

13:59 in the Bay Area everyone used Facebook Messenger.

14:02 But then I moved here and now I swear I am in so many

14:06 iMessage group chats that every time I test Android phone they bully the out of

14:09 Now look at you.

14:11 What have they done to our lad?

14:12 And I know that you say that's not a real problem.

14:15 But bullying is real, okay?

14:17 I don't like crying.

14:18 Do you like crying?

14:20 It sucks.

14:20 You should have uh we should get on GroupMe.

14:23 No.

14:23 Oh my god.

14:24 Fun facts.

14:24 Oh my god.

14:25 Worst app of all time.

14:27 First messaging app of the MKBHD business.

14:30 Yeah.

14:30 When Brandon and Vince started It was a good time.

14:32 Well, because Marques and I were in a GroupMe for our both of our ultimate team

14:36 Every frisbee team I've played for for 15

14:38 years until like last year was a GroupMe team.

14:40 That's unbelievable.

14:41 That was the most like feature not an app app of all time.

14:45 It's one It's genuinely I was talking about Flighty being one of the five best.

14:48 GroupMe is one of the five worst apps Yeah.

14:51 of all time.

14:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:54 Yeah.

14:54 I want to make one final note really related to this and then

14:57 we can take it to break on the Windows 11 thing.

15:00 Dave 2D put out a really good video recently about this and the kind

15:04 of the gist of this was that a number of years ago, like five or six years ago,

15:09 he had all of the Windows manufacturers sent him laptops

15:13 that were in the same price range as the Apple M1 Air,

15:17 I believe, so he could compare them.

15:19 And all these manufacturers like, "Sure, yeah,

15:21 like here's our laptop that's that price." And then he asked to all the same

15:25 manufacturers this year to send him laptops that were in the same price range,

15:29 and they were all like,

15:30 "No." And I feel like that kind of distills the entire thing.

15:36 That's all you really need to know.

15:37 They're all afraid.

15:39 They knew the video he was going to make.

15:40 going to make it look negative.

15:41 Yeah, he was going to make it look terrible.

15:42 They didn't really know at the time how insane M1 was,

15:45 but they still feel 5 to 6 years behind at this point.

15:48 So, it's it's crazy.

15:50 Yeah.

15:51 So, go watch the video if you haven't already.

15:53 I want to say something nice about Windows.

15:54 Go for it.

15:55 Because everyone always tells me I'm too mean to my Windows green bubble people.

15:59 I know those are two separate things.

16:00 Windows green bubble.

16:01 To me, you're the same.

16:02 But, Yeah, that's fair.

16:04 something nice about Windows, I like that they support old graphics engines.

16:10 I like that I can still get a DirectX

16:12 driver that runs on a modern Windows motherboard.

16:16 I think that's cool.

16:17 Apple does not do that.

16:19 Pre-pre-metal stuff, very hard to run on macOS.

16:23 DirectX stuff, very easy to run on a Windows computer.

16:26 Pre-metal is like rocks and fire.

16:28 Yes.

16:29 I That was the name of the old Apple graphics engine, actually.

16:32 Rocks and fire.

16:33 Hell, yeah.

16:33 Yeah, Steve Jobs was super against it.

16:36 Yeah, and then when and then when Jony Ive came in and he said,

16:39 "Aluminum." And they knew it had to be metal.

16:41 Hey, thanks for watching this clip.

16:43 If this clip gets 10,000 likes, I will order a Cyborg R.A.T.

16:48 7 mouse for the next episode of the podcast.

16:51 I might do it anyway,

16:52 but if this clip gets 10,000 likes, I will definitely do it.

16:55 Mhm, just saying.

16:57 R.A.T.

16:57 7.

16:58 R.A.T.

16:59 7.

17:02 Okay.