Stretching Is Overrated (Here’s What Actually Works) w/ Lucas Hardie

0:00 What would be two or three simple movements that are

0:04 traditional strength exercises that could help improve their range?

0:08 Well, for lower body, I actually like I just call them stances.

0:12 So, in martial arts, they practice a lot of fundamental stance,

0:16 bow stance and horse stance, and it looks similar to a sumo squat.

0:21 When it comes to the lower body, I'll I'll really lean into those two stances.

0:26 I've even found a lot of individuals that train

0:28 the horse stance up to a high level become quite

0:32 the strength and conditioning world, the fitness world right now.

0:35 I'll look at something like Athlete X and I'll sort of like it triggers me,

0:39 but at the same time I'm like, you know what,

0:41 a lot of people they benefit from that first step into fitness.

0:45 And I guess my question was going to be is

0:47 like what do you see as like where they've gone wrong?

0:52 I think they just haven't done uh enough work in the areas that they talk

0:56 about like they know disciplines of training

0:59 uh like they've done it and they haven't.

1:01 I didn't really foster a solid opinion about

1:04 stretching and flexibility until I I did it

1:07 for a long time and studied the different worlds

1:09 and kind of came up with my own conclusions.

1:11 And I don't think enough coaches spend the time to do that echoing

1:16 what has been said by other people that we probably look up to.

1:19 And that's fine.

1:20 But I think it's important to recognize that.

1:24 We're going to dive into everything functional

1:26 strength and we're going to start right now.

1:29 I was privileged enough to sit down with Lucas Hardy aka range of strength.

1:34 And one of the coolest parts about this entire podcast is that Lucas talks

1:39 through his entire career of training and what it meant to be a really,

1:42 really strong power lifter but not have functional mobility.

1:46 And the crazy part is when we're saying functional,

1:50 when we're saying mobile, Lucas takes this to a whole another level.

1:55 He's talking splits.

1:57 He's talking about crazy mobility with 400 plus pounds on his back.

2:02 We're not talking about some fufu guru with functional strength.

2:05 We're talking about the real deal functional strength/functional mobility.

2:09 Get your notebook ready because we're going to go deep into mobility.

2:12 Coaches, we are hosting a strength and conditioning seminar

2:16 here in Pennsylvania June 5th and June 6th with Dr.

2:20 Kristoff Kip, Dr.

2:21 Ken Clark, Will Retell, and myself.

2:24 This is for strength coaches and sport coaches alike.

2:27 And the first 30 that sign up are going to get 400 bucks off.

2:32 This thing is going to be awesome.

2:34 Now, let's get to the podcast.

2:36 Okay, Lucas.

2:37 So, I'm 42 years old.

2:38 I' I've got four kids.

2:40 I've trained since essentially I was like 11 12 years old with my dad.

2:45 Uh I want to know as someone who's getting older

2:48 and even as I take myself somewhat seriously as an athlete,

2:53 why should I be training full range of motion with exercises?

2:58 Like should I be I you know some people might

3:00 say like oh you should try and protect your joints.

3:02 I guess my big question to you as like the range guy is why

3:09 does full range of motion make sense

3:11 for strength training and and building muscle mass?

3:16 Well, I'm glad you opened up the way you did because

3:18 you present that uh other aspect of life which you know 42,

3:23 you're a father of four.

3:24 Uh there's a lot more to this world besides lifting barbells,

3:28 even though sometimes I I often get blocked by that and that's my priority.

3:33 Uh you know, I was a competitive powerlifter myself

3:37 when I made the transition to get into this stuff.

3:39 And for me, it was kind of like enough is enough.

3:41 Uh I need to make a change.

3:43 And we had just had twins.

3:45 So, uh I had a 2-year-old at the time,

3:48 uh still competing competitively in powerlifting.

3:51 And I must have came across like my 50th

3:52 injury that like it was pretty pretty bad.

3:55 And uh we had twins and I'm like, you know, what am I doing this for?

4:00 And and I I want to be able to move on the ground with them.

4:02 I want to be able to show them cool things.

4:04 I want to get back to moving.

4:06 Like I want to move.

4:09 So for me, that kind of was the transitional moment where I was like, "Okay,

4:13 I got to figure this stuff out." uh

4:15 as a strength coach for the last 21 years now.

4:19 I've and I'm sure you've been there too.

4:21 We've seen the evolution of mobility training like

4:24 when I started there wasn't even a mobility training.

4:27 There was nothing.

4:27 We just trained people.

4:28 We got them strong, got them athletic or helped them lose weight,

4:32 whatever the goal was.

4:34 But then, you know, there was this new mobility training.

4:37 Everyone wanted to start doing things that were

4:39 a little more outside of what they were capable of.

4:42 I think because of the growth of CrossFit,

4:44 things like that um across the industry and uh you know that exposure

4:49 to mobility training when it first came out didn't really appeal to me.

4:53 And uh I think there's obviously even still it's

4:57 still very new and there's still a lot of it

4:59 that is evolving and we're still trying to figure out

5:02 this stuff like what what should we actually care about?

5:04 Do we have to extend a session for an hour on top of what we already are trying

5:09 to do to get gains or you know do we just change a few things here and there?

5:13 So I think like for me uh having kind of gone through that process and now

5:20 in this kind of deciding moment where I'm

5:22 pretty beat up and broken in my early 30s.

5:25 I think I was just turning 30.

5:27 I just started looking in places I haven't before man.

5:30 And uh just before we started the call, I said, you know,

5:33 I' I'd realized you're have a throwing

5:36 background and uh that really appeals to me at the moment because there's a lot

5:40 of unconventional uh applications to training there.

5:43 And I've always kind of been like that anyway,

5:45 kind of open-minded to exploring some of these different ideas,

5:49 which is why I got into powerlifting.

5:51 I think they were the only ones in the gym doing

5:53 everything opposite to uh what we were being told to do.

5:58 Uh, and then, you know, for me it was like looking where I haven't before.

6:01 So, I did start kind of going down, I think,

6:04 the traditional rabbit hole of like, I'm going to start doing some yoga.

6:08 I'm going to start, you know, uh, doing mo more mobility work.

6:13 And for that first year or so there where I was

6:16 really like committing to it and devoting myself to the practice,

6:19 I I just didn't really see any change.

6:22 I still had a lot of limitations in my flexibility.

6:25 started to think about it being more of a genetic

6:27 thing and maybe I was kind of too late for this.

6:30 Uh, and then someone introduced me to gymnastics,

6:33 strength training, more calisthenics I guess you would call it,

6:36 but a book called uh overcoming gravity it was called by Steve

6:40 Low that really kind of like changed my perspective on uh what body

6:44 weight training could be and it got me a little more excited about

6:49 learning that side of training rather than just trying to change my mobility.

6:52 I was like, "Okay, I'm going to start working on some

6:55 body weight strength stuff and and figuring out a lot

6:57 of these things I don't know in gymnastics." And that actually opened

7:00 up my eyes more to what mobility and flexibility development could be.

7:06 Uh I connected with coach Christopher S summer during that time.

7:10 So he is a head coach and owner of gymnastic bodies.

7:15 This was like the early 20110s around there.

7:20 Around that time, the gymnastic strength training was

7:22 really taken off and it was being presented,

7:24 I think, in a way where it was more accessible to everyday person.

7:28 You don't need to be able to do a PLCH to start training gymnastics.

7:31 You don't need all these crazy prerequisites.

7:34 But he he really opened my mind up to more

7:36 of this uh weighted mobility and weighted flexibility approach,

7:40 using weight to change range of motion.

7:42 and I really got my mind thinking and, you know,

7:45 applying a lot of what I already knew

7:47 to powerlifting around training range of motion and developing flexibility.

7:52 So, that kind of leads us to where we are today.

7:56 I'm still diving down those rabbit holes.

7:58 Uh, oldtime strength training has been another one um

8:02 that I've been really getting into over the years.

8:05 Uh, and for me it's like it got to a point where I started becoming so mobile

8:12 and flexible at my age and my size

8:15 that everyone was reaching out to me for that.

8:18 And I was kind of a little conflicted at the time.

8:20 I don't know if you've had this before, but you're like,

8:22 I I I really identify myself as a strength coach by heart,

8:25 you know, and that's kind of where I come from.

8:27 But now next thing you know, everyone's like,

8:28 I want to improve my flexibility and mobility.

8:30 Can you help me?

8:32 And this really Yeah.

8:33 This kind of sent me to developing range of strength.

8:36 And the big question I had to answer was

8:39 how can we do this without removing ourselves so

8:42 much from the things that we love doing because

8:45 I experienced that even coming around to, you know,

8:49 finding the way I like to train now.

8:51 I I was doing all these like really

8:53 drawn out mobility sessions and I was like, "Okay,

8:56 I'm going to take a break from strength training." And, you know,

8:59 it was like almost too much.

9:00 And a lot of people really battle with that is like how much do you have

9:03 to give up to really get back and and improve your range of motion and what

9:07 is a minimal effective dose right because I think a lot of people are trying

9:10 to sell sell something right mobility training as like

9:14 its own entity and it's kind of one

9:16 style approach but it really doesn't fit

9:19 into everyone's lives uh at a lot of different

9:21 levels too right so that's kind of where I came in with range of strength uh

9:26 methods is uh a lot of my programming I help people with is has that integrated

9:31 model trying to help them choose uh goals

9:35 that they should work on for developing flexibility.

9:39 Uh which is also a barrier.

9:41 You probably have experienced that too.

9:42 It's like well what oftent times the uh the retention

9:47 to mobility training is just people don't get it.

9:49 They just don't know what they're working for, right?

9:52 So helping people identify uh good entry level goals to work

9:56 towards that would help lead to other goals, things like that.

10:00 So um that's kind of where we are today,

10:04 guys.

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10:11 is our strength training app that sponsors this podcast.

10:15 If you guys need help with your programming,

10:17 you need help being held accountable to do

10:19 lifts that you typically wouldn't do, like myself.

10:22 I didn't want to do the mobility, but every single session,

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10:30 I've got timers.

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10:34 become more mobile and help me with my own recovery.

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11:01 to feel stronger again, to feel more mobile.

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11:30 Now, let's get back to Lucas Hardy.

11:33 I think first I want to touch on you and I share that we have twins.

11:37 So I need to I always like when I meet somebody who has twins.

11:40 I'm like yo I got twins too.

11:42 And I was in a similar situation.

11:43 I had two kids prior and then we had twins.

11:46 I wanted to get that out of the way because I just want to relate to you.

11:49 Um, now with that being said, if if I, you know,

11:54 hearing you out, like where I guess right off the bat,

11:58 my first thought is like what what would be like

12:03 two or three simple movements that are consistent like traditional

12:08 strength exercises that you might start with or that somebody

12:12 could start with that that could help improve their their range?

12:17 Uh well for lower body I actually like um I just call them stances.

12:24 Um and it looks similar to you know a lunge and a sumo squat but more of uh

12:31 what I've learned and studied from that side

12:33 of it is the martial arts side of stances.

12:35 So in martial arts they practice a lot of fundamental stance

12:39 like bow bow stance and horse stance are kind of like

12:43 these wide uh postures where you're basically just starting to express

12:49 uh a stance that is a very long kind of flexible position.

12:54 So I've learned from some teachers that uh

12:57 teach those things on just a different level.

13:00 And of course, I've related it to, you know,

13:02 sumo deadlifting and my powerlifting kind of experiences.

13:05 But, uh, when it comes to the lower body,

13:08 uh, I'll I'll really lean into those two stances.

13:11 So, the long stance, which is like a almost looks like a a standing front split,

13:17 but you're in an active isometric one, you know,

13:20 you're really stretching the knee, comes behind the heel, behind the toe.

13:25 Um, and then the, uh, wide stance is the horse stance.

13:28 So there there's just like subtle qualities there that are

13:31 and details that are slightly different than a sumo squat versus teaching

13:34 a horse stance where we're we're thinking of how the expression

13:38 of range of motion is is executed versus just standing wide.

13:44 Um so I lean into those because they uh they really open up

13:47 a lot of doors for people in the lower body how to use the hips.

13:51 Uh, I've even found a lot of individuals that train

13:54 the horse stance up to a high level become quite more efficient

13:58 at just a grass squatting because it really helps break down

14:01 the mechanics of the hips a little better for them to understand.

14:04 Um, so I lean into those.

14:06 Uh, I'll also work on the the toe touch, like the traditional forward fold.

14:11 That's often a goal for people.

14:13 But, you know, within that, that's like

14:15 the posterior chain flexibility kind of thing,

14:18 which could start with a Jefferson curl,

14:20 but oftent times that's not super

14:23 available to individuals that are quite restricted.

14:26 So, I'll start with introductions to I like split stance hinging.

14:30 Um, and just like teaching how to actually load and stretch

14:34 the hamstring with a little bit more of a straight leg.

14:37 Uh, so it has a little bit more of a yoga background kind of application.

14:41 Um, and uh, that'll that allow help a lot

14:44 of individuals develop some flexibility to touch their toes.

14:48 And a lot of these things too,

14:50 I like to put some some numbers and figures around.

14:53 Like we we don't want it to be a one-time thing.

14:56 We don't want to say like, okay,

14:57 we're going to do this session and all it's like some magical toe to toe touch.

15:00 It's it's something we're trying to have

15:03 a permanent change of range of motion in.

15:06 And I think this is where a lot of people get caught

15:08 up in how that's presented is like stretching's neural and it's temporary.

15:13 Uh, you know, it's not going to stay

15:15 and it's not something that you can actually train up,

15:18 which isn't true in my experience and a lot of the things that I've studied.

15:22 It has to be trained over time, right?

15:25 And it has to be progressively overloaded

15:27 for adaptations to occur in those ranges of motion.

15:30 It's like saying that you can't squat 405 because it's temporary.

15:35 It's like trying to turn up every day and squat 405 would just

15:38 be silly to think that that's something that you can do right starting out.

15:43 So, um those are three big ones for lower body.

15:47 And then upper body, uh I really lean into the overhead stuff, right?

15:52 Because a lot of individuals get that, you know,

15:55 loss of range of motion overhead.

15:56 And that's also one of those things that's kind of uh

16:00 a bit of a fear around miss some misinformation around like

16:04 oh you shouldn't reach overhead because you're going to[ __]

16:06 your shoulder up uh you're going to create all these issues whereas

16:09 I try to open some doors and start creating some stimulus

16:13 overhead which involves a lot of static stretching which static stretching

16:18 isn't just passive it's it's under load if we do if

16:21 we're thinking about how we're stretching the tissue and contracting them.

16:25 So, um I find that the even the hang I've shared some posts around this too,

16:31 developing a hollow body hang for somebody who's quite limited overhead.

16:37 So, it's a little different than a relaxed hang like which is still a good goal.

16:41 It helps with that uh you know decompression of of the back and the spine.

16:46 Um, but the hollow hang when you think about creating that shape,

16:50 it it puts quite a more substantial load in the lats and in the shoulder girdle.

16:55 So, it starts to become more of a strength stimulus

16:58 for people that are lacking that overhead range of motion.

17:02 So those are some things I I think that like you know right

17:06 out the the gates you can get people having some big wins right away

17:10 with just some of those small changes and they fit quite easily into traditional

17:14 programming models which we don't want to strive too far away from, right?

17:17 Like we already know uh you can't go wrong getting strong, right?

17:22 Like most people that are deconditioned and if they lack range of motion,

17:26 they're very intimidated with getting strong.

17:28 So it's like we that's still a priority.

17:30 like we got to find a way to get

17:32 this person confident with developing some strength again.

17:35 And then on top of that, you can start putting

17:39 some of these goals in where they're range of motion specific.

17:43 So when you're saying this, like I I initially am hearing like

17:47 a a bunch of different stuff around some of these unique positions,

17:51 some of the the split stance positions,

17:53 but I I wanted to almost go back to like your initial start and in and journey.

17:59 And it almost seemed like that first year

18:02 into yoga and like the more traditional mobility stuff,

18:06 you know, I I remember like Supple Leopard came out in like 2010 or 2011.

18:13 And I think like prior to that, you would see guys,

18:16 you know, doing yoga and doing mobility work.

18:18 I have a good friend actually known as the mobility doc.

18:21 Uh, and he would always talk more about mobility tools

18:26 or mobility resources as like almost like if someone gets injured,

18:31 how to get them back quicker, but then using load like similar to you,

18:36 like he's a big fan of like things like full range of motion squats.

18:39 As long as someone's capable of doing it,

18:40 it's probably the best way to keep somebody mobile.

18:43 M anyway, where I'm going with this question is is

18:46 it is it accurate that you were, you know,

18:50 the the the traditional like just stretch and and foam roll

18:56 and do yoga didn't do enough that you did find like look,

19:00 I've got to do this stuff and I've got to do

19:03 it loaded and I and when you did it loaded,

19:06 you tended to see a lot better progress from it.

19:09 Is that accurate?

19:10 Yeah, absolutely.

19:11 And so to reflect on that a bit deeper,

19:13 like I didn't have the prerequisite positions to do the things I was doing,

19:18 I actually love yoga.

19:20 And when I had started to develop a good foundation of flexibility,

19:24 I went back and started doing yoga and I was like, "This is 10 times better.

19:27 I can actually access a lot of these positions now.

19:30 Whereas prior to that when I was struggling,

19:33 I was like kind of sitting in child's pose because they were like,

19:35 "Sit in child's pose if you can't do this." And I was like,

19:37 "I can't do that." Right?

19:38 Like so there is a lot of this like how do we

19:41 get someone developing some prerequisite range of motion or at least thinking

19:46 about how they should do that versus just doing a bunch of exercises

19:50 that act they actually can't access or they can't load very well

19:53 like static stretching is good if you have the mobility already to do

19:59 it but I find a lot of individuals especially uh bigger developed

20:03 individuals like individuals that carry a lot of muscle like there's know

20:08 you you need load to assist you to actually get in the position.

20:11 The muscle and the connective tissue are so strong that even just

20:15 like putting a little bit of weight into a stretch for someone,

20:18 it's not making it harder, it's actually making it easier for that person

20:22 because they're so stiff and they actually need load.

20:26 It's like when we look at these passive

20:27 range of motion tests where we're checking someone's

20:30 external rotation and stuff and they got all

20:32 this muscle and they can bench 400 lb.

20:34 just like that's that means nothing to me because I

20:37 know that how much that person can do under load.

20:40 Why would I care what he's moving passively here?

20:42 Like I need to actually teach them how to start moving and and getting

20:46 into these positions with some weight so that they

20:48 can start getting some changes in their ROM.

20:51 And I think that's the thing we overlook a lot

20:52 with some of these like even mobility itself is a lot

20:55 of them are like very passive modalities for certain types of people

20:59 that maybe enjoy it because they already have those prerequisite positions.

21:04 It kind of feels like yoga in a way.

21:06 Um, versus the types that need some kind of higher stimulus

21:11 or they need some kind of constraints in place that actually

21:14 help them start to change and develop range of motion versus

21:18 trying to access a position that they just don't even have yet.

21:21 So, I I got a question and and part of this is that I

21:24 I love triggering powerlifting individuals and I

21:27 know you have the powerlifting background.

21:29 Um, do you think it was powerlifting that sort of like led you

21:34 astray or or led you a and got you to be like almost immobile?

21:41 And the reason I'm asking this is like anecdotally, you know,

21:46 we have powerlters that train here, so I I don't want to attack them too bad,

21:49 but we have powerlters that train, we have weightlifterss,

21:52 we got guys that come in for general fitness,

21:53 bodybuilders, and a lot of athletes.

21:56 And when we see stereotypically the powerlifters

22:01 are almost always stiffer and then depending upon the level of a bodybuilder

22:07 some bodybuilders have unbelievable mobility.

22:10 Um and then the weightlifterss are are tend to be incredibly mobile.

22:14 That's where I wanted to go.

22:15 Like is it is it because the the benefit of the shortened range of motion

22:22 leads to greater maximal out max strength uh in the sense of the competition?

22:28 Like does powerlifting did that lead you sort of arai?

22:35 And then is it now looking back

22:37 like it's not inherently that powerlifting is bad.

22:40 It's just you need to be doing more range work

22:44 to sort of support uh the athlete who is a powerlifter.

22:48 I guess that's where I I wanted to see what your thoughts were on that.

22:52 Yeah, absolutely.

22:52 I had a lot of identity crisis there when I was getting at a powerlift and like

22:57 for a moment there I hated on it because I

23:01 had so many injuries to it and I was like,

23:03 you know, I'm never going to go back to it and I'm going to kind

23:05 of transform my body and get myself into shape and I'm I'm powerlifting now.

23:10 I just turned 42 and I would even argue

23:13 I'm probably pound-for-pound stronger than I was back then.

23:16 At least raw, I would say, because I used to train equipped.

23:20 Uh, but it certainly was a c more of a culture culture cultural thing.

23:26 Uh, if that makes sense.

23:27 Like getting caught up in like the uh, you know,

23:29 taking the bus to the gym instead of walking

23:31 because I didn't want to waste any gains.

23:33 and you know uh just really trying to focus

23:36 on the big three and uh any accessory work that would help

23:40 that get stronger versus you know the powerlters that I help

23:44 today um I work with more powerlifterss now for mobility purposes than

23:48 I do for barbell strength purposes but it's really just about

23:52 adding some of these things into their training that suits and balances

23:57 out uh all the other qualities and I think that's really

24:01 where probably a lot of specialist ath athletes can get into.

24:03 Like Olympic lifters have it kind of nice where their lifts

24:06 are bringing them through a full rom all the time,

24:10 but there are certainly some qualities being missed there

24:12 that they have to find ways to address in different ways.

24:14 And I think that's probably where, you know,

24:18 I I'm seeing a lot of it start to switch that way.

24:20 Um, you know, coaches like Trevor Joffy, Joffy Strength, um,

24:25 he helps me out and he's very much a little more open-minded to this stuff.

24:28 He trains powerlifterss at a very high level,

24:30 but he puts the things in there that aren't being addressed on a regular basis.

24:34 So, making some time to do some things through full rom,

24:38 making some time to train some

24:40 positions that don't regularly get trained, right?

24:43 Um, I think that's really the culture has to change and I think it is changing.

24:47 I think people are starting to realize it was, you know,

24:49 not doing cardio and not doing all these other

24:52 things that are just important for vitality reasons.

24:56 Um, and it's I think it's nice to be in a position where I'm

24:59 in now where I am powerlifting again and I'm still doing the things I was doing.

25:04 I guess the battle that I have sometimes with that is

25:06 like how for how limited I was, you know,

25:10 sometimes it's like is the best answer to take a little bit of a break

25:15 from some of those things that are kind of messing with you mentally,

25:18 which powerlifting was for me at the time, and then,

25:20 you know, figure some[ __] out and come back.

25:23 And I think that's just something that we do now anyway is I'm

25:26 sure you can relate as someone who's been doing it for so long.

25:29 We take these side quests so that we can keep trying

25:31 to be the best version of ourselves and try to keep going, right?

25:35 Uh it makes us better coaches at the end of the day

25:38 because it's not always the same athlete in front of us, right?

25:41 Wish it was.

25:42 It wouldn't be as fun, would it?

25:46 I guess like going off of that is if if you're

25:50 looking at it from from this perspective going into bodybuilding man.

25:53 So so I wanted to you touched on weightlifting.

25:57 Do you think with bodybuilding like the the guys who are

25:59 in it for a while that are good they are typically

26:04 and like I could be wrong in this analysis but I

26:06 feel like the the best of the best are like super mobile.

26:09 Like you'll see Yeah.

26:10 I'm just thinking top of mind.

26:11 Someone like Michael Hearn who's almost I

26:13 feel like the dude's almost 60 and he's

26:16 he has incredible mobility and you'll even see videos

26:19 of like the best bodybuilders like doing hamstring stretches and stuff.

26:24 Do you think that that is from the range that they train in?

26:28 Um they they consistently train in such a long range because either

26:33 one they're going to get more mechanical tension or two they also

26:37 train in ranges and they might use different movements that we aren't

26:42 used to seeing to try and get a this like mind muscle connection.

26:47 You can say it it doesn't work, but I think bodybuilders would argue with that.

26:52 And it almost brings up like I'm thinking

26:55 about like Bill Pearl's book and I've seen you

26:57 you post with Bill Pearl's book uh which

27:00 you did that before me and I was extraordinarily

27:02 jealous that you did it on social media

27:04 before me but it made me think like genuinely

27:10 the bodybuilding mobility might be almost what you're

27:13 saying because they're going to do some calisthetic movements.

27:15 they're going to train in a longer range for more muscle growth

27:18 and then at the same time it's targeting weaknesses or weak points potentially

27:23 and they might hit it from a really weird angle just

27:26 because they don't feel that specific muscle and is that like

27:30 do you have any thoughts on that?

27:32 Oh, for sure.

27:32 Uh, and that's where a lot of my thoughts have gone in the recent

27:35 years studying the old time old time strongman stuff and the bronze era.

27:40 The silver era was when bodybuilding really

27:43 started to become more of an isolated sport.

27:46 And even if you look the silver era is

27:48 probably I would say where you would look more

27:50 and see that stuff where they're really focused on trying

27:53 to develop a muscle through full range of motion.

27:55 They're just really trying to ensure that that muscle is

27:58 trained through full range with pullovers and the stiff leg deadlifts.

28:01 back then they used to do from a big deficit.

28:04 Um all of that stuff is there and you know

28:08 speaking of guys like Michael Hearn like you know say

28:10 what you will about him like he trains like

28:13 that still and he's trained like that for a long time.

28:15 He's had that old school approach where he's

28:18 doing pullovers and he's doing behind the neck presses.

28:21 He's training in these ROMs that bodybuilding really

28:23 moved away from right because the drugs got better.

28:27 The development got a little easier.

28:29 So, you kind of started leaning

28:31 into these ways of training where it's like, well,

28:33 I don't want to put myself in a harder position

28:35 or I don't want to compromise anything or, you know,

28:39 I can still look the same, but do I still move the same?

28:42 And I think that's what we need to look

28:44 at when it comes to bodybuilding is like, you know,

28:47 you can have that aesthetic quality and it can be built on a machine,

28:50 but how are you moving when you're away from it?

28:53 And you look at guys like Mike and he's

28:54 he's I think he's doing BJJ now, too, right?

28:57 like he's grappling and he's he's moving around,

28:59 he's active doing all this other stuff

29:01 and it's just like proof of the work, right?

29:03 Like he still trains that way.

29:05 Um, machines are great.

29:06 I love machines.

29:08 Uh, unfortunately haven't had access to them very much throughout

29:12 my career because I've always worked in little dungeons and I

29:14 worked for the military for a long time where it was

29:16 just like we're just really raw training with what we got.

29:19 But when I have the machines, I certainly use them and it's fun.

29:23 But I don't think we, you know, I wouldn't want to see,

29:26 and it's kind of going that way sometimes

29:27 with the optimal training approach with all these cuffs and stuff.

29:32 There's some good ideas there,

29:33 but certainly gets a little crazy where I think we

29:36 should be measuring our movement qualities outside of the gym.

29:39 And, you know, Mike's a good example of that.

29:41 And a lot of what they did in the silver era

29:43 and the golden era even um before the machines got so

29:46 popular it was still that you know raw approach moving through

29:51 full range of motion and you know that kind of thing.

29:55 So okay I wanted to I wanted to ask you because you sort of mentioned this.

29:59 There's there's a recent study where like they like strap they strapped some

30:03 guys down and then they were doing like these crazy like 15minute pec stretches.

30:07 I don't know if you read the papers.

30:09 It was like in the last 5 years there was a there was an Achilles stretch

30:12 on the calf where they put athletes in a boot

30:15 for over an hour and they basically would like

30:18 crank for the boot to to li to strengthen

30:22 to dorsif flex more to lengthen uh and it

30:25 it's essentially like one hour torture devices to get

30:30 some type of range added to the muscle.

30:34 And like I think they developed some muscle tissue too there, didn't they?

30:38 Yeah.

30:38 Yeah, they they did develop some it.

30:42 Yeah,

30:41 I think even even in the pec one, if I remember,

30:44 the pec one was like a 15 minute stretch, but it was like on a scale of 1 to 10,

30:49 these these individuals would go to like a seven and a half or an eight.

30:54 Yeah.

30:53 Then they'd stay there and as the pain deteriorated,

30:57 they would go back into a deeper range where it was more painful.

31:02 When when my first hesitation to range training and now also

31:06 I would I would say I am a range a ranger however

31:11 you would describe it whatever your the the term would be

31:16 um arrangian or something like that right I would be that person

31:21 range seeker that's what we call it

31:23 yeah okay range seeker so so like the problem that I

31:26 have that or the hesitant the hesitant part is like sometimes I

31:31 get a little scared that like I'm gonna have that type

31:34 of discomfort and I guess that Like for someone listening right now,

31:40 how much discomfort are they going to have

31:42 to go through or that that you're going

31:43 to be like to be real like look like you got to loosen up a little bit.

31:47 There's going to be some point and and I

31:49 guess walk me through someone like myself.

31:52 What would that what would that look like?

31:53 Who who doesn't have the best doesn't have the best mobility overhead?

31:58 You know, what does that look like?

31:59 Yeah, for sure.

32:00 That was uh really eye- openening research.

32:04 It was a little um extreme, right?

32:06 like that's obviously not a very good practical um approach to things.

32:11 Uh and I did get into some discussions

32:13 with Adam Meakans at the time when that came out.

32:15 If you know Adam, he posts a lot of good research that you know and helps

32:20 helps us remove ourselves from the thought

32:21 of being broken all the time, which is great.

32:24 But uh we discussed that paper a little bit and I shared another one

32:27 with him that was I think done around the same time that was more realistic.

32:31 So they used similar pain thresholds but they used a progressive

32:36 scale of intensity and a progressive scale of volume of more like

32:40 45 seconds over the course of nine weeks they went up

32:43 to 90 seconds for like traditional think of it like strength training.

32:46 It was like you know sets and and holds

32:48 kind of thing and they had a very similar result.

32:51 There was an a felt like a permanent change in range

32:55 of motion at the ankle and there was also muscle development as well.

33:00 So it's a little it's cool because it's more of a realistic scenario now.

33:03 You're like oh you know so stretching can be done at more intense

33:08 level and kind of the uh the stimulus is more important right and we

33:14 can think of progressing it the same way we progress strength training which

33:16 is really what I've was doing over the have been doing over the years.

33:20 So now it's like this research is starting to come out

33:22 to say like we do need to challenge ourselves to a pain threshold.

33:27 whatever the scale is, they're usually using I think like an seven

33:31 or eight out of 10 like you were saying.

33:33 So, we actually do need to create

33:35 a stimulus that is going to create change, right?

33:38 Which we know we have to do with strength training, too.

33:41 It's just I think like you said,

33:43 the intimidation side here is there's not enough accessibility

33:48 to that as like being taught how to do it well, right?

33:53 Um, so it's kind of intimidating.

33:55 It's like should I and I get that a lot.

33:56 people will start doing um heavy Jefferson curls and trying

34:00 to really force a range of motion they don't have with weight.

34:02 And I'm like, well, that's that's not the approach we should do.

34:05 We should try to find an intensity on that hamstring a bit of a different way

34:09 and build that up from there while learning

34:12 the technical qualities of a Jefferson curl, for example.

34:15 Um so, you know, like anything, you know,

34:18 I was like that when I was younger and I was learning how to strength train.

34:21 and I was reading whatever article and I was going to the gym and I

34:23 was trying it and probably putting myself at risk of getting hurt or whatever.

34:27 But, uh, it's nice to see that the a lot of the literature is starting

34:31 to say the most important component to changes

34:35 in range of motion is intensity, right?

34:38 But how can we do that intelligently where

34:41 we can actually teach someone how to do it?

34:43 And goes back to I think a lot

34:44 of the PNF principles that have been around for a while.

34:47 Like at the end of the day, static stretching is a form of isometric training.

34:52 So for me, I deal with people that can't do a lot

34:57 of[ __] So I I have to start finding ways to put them

35:00 in a position that we can create

35:02 some kind of isometric component and and getting

35:05 some kind of intensity on either side of the joint that we're stretching.

35:09 Um so you know, it's it's still new, right?

35:14 like it's a lot of what I present is

35:16 like newer ideas around like what I've been experimenting with.

35:20 Um but trying to align with a lot of like what some

35:23 of the newer literature is saying and at least you know sometimes you

35:27 got to steer a little bit away from that to you figure

35:30 out what works for different types of people and what works for yourself.

35:33 But um yeah, it's it's like certainly one of those things where we just again

35:38 we just don't have we don't have enough

35:41 coaches or teachers that can implement that stuff.

35:44 You know, we're still got people being told

35:47 to stretch for five minutes after a session.

35:49 It's like what does that mean?

35:51 Yeah.

35:52 Yeah.

35:52 I actually dude,

35:53 it's funny cuz you're saying all this and we of our kids after we train,

35:57 they do they do like a 10-minute cool down

36:00 and we we do some static like like positional work,

36:04 squat deep into the hole, sit there,

36:06 rock back and forth, you know, maybe like a little duck work,

36:09 foam roll, but then also just crazy static stuff.

36:12 And I'm sitting here immediately like challenging myself like,

36:16 is this really the best thing?

36:17 It's It's great to have kids that are in middle school stretching,

36:20 but like we could take this a little bit further.

36:23 Um, before I go into that, we don't need to go into that.

36:27 Actually, I wanted to ask you because you mentioned PNF principles, right?

36:31 What does that mean?

36:32 Somebody listening right now, what is PNF?

36:34 Can you explain that?

36:36 explain PNF principles and then walk us

36:39 through what that would mean for you teaching,

36:43 you know, teaching, let's say, maybe actually with the Jefferson curl.

36:46 Uh, and maybe let's just roll right into like

36:49 do we really want to do spinal flexion?

36:51 Do we really want to have final spinal flexion occur as well?

36:54 So, like introduce the principles from PNF, what does PNF mean?

37:00 And then how could um someone safely achieve spinal flexion?

37:05 But I might ask you to defend spinal flexion

37:08 being is okay before we get into the defense.

37:11 Yeah.

37:11 Yeah.

37:12 Well, PNF's interesting, right?

37:14 Because there's been all these evolutions of it where it's confusing now.

37:18 And I was confused as a coach when

37:20 I started getting into mobility and flexibility training.

37:22 There was all this terminology and it was really all the same.

37:26 We're just saying the same thing over and over again.

37:27 And so PNF uh I think has a bit more of the um kind of long-term origins

37:34 of what we're doing in a stretch where

37:37 it's propriioceptive neuromuscular facilitation is what it stands for.

37:42 And what it is is it's a contraction technique on both sides of the joint.

37:47 So if you're imagining holding a hamstring stretch,

37:50 TNF style is usually administered assisted.

37:53 So, partner stretch and we have a contraction on the stretching side.

37:58 So, if you're in a hamstring stretch and you're contracting your hamstring,

38:03 we're creating a contraction to help that muscle

38:05 lengthen and relax into a deeper range of motion.

38:08 And we're pairing that with a contraction on the other side of the joint.

38:11 So, the quadriceps and the hip flexors are shortening

38:14 to pull the muscle into a deeper contraction and deeper stretch.

38:18 And there's been all these evolutions of it, right?

38:20 So then there's the crack method which is

38:22 contract relax agonist contract it's the same thing

38:25 and then there's the pales and rails from FRC

38:28 which is progressive and regressive angular isometrics which

38:32 is a nice way to think about it because they're a little bit more specific

38:35 to the isometric side of it and the intensity

38:37 side of it but it is the same thing.

38:40 So, we get into this def and a lot

38:42 of people will reach out to me and be like, "Well,

38:44 what should I try?" And I'm like, "All it's all the same." So,

38:46 you don't really have to worry about one being right or wrong.

38:50 They're just have their different way of saying how to do it.

38:52 But the most important is intensity.

38:56 So, when I'm teaching static stretching,

38:58 I'm trying to progressively get someone into a more intense

39:02 stretch and feel like they are actually understanding the stretch.

39:07 There also doesn't have to be contractions on both sides.

39:10 We, you know, we know there's constant angle stretching.

39:13 So, we're actually just progressively making

39:15 the the stretch harder by moving deeper into it.

39:18 Um, you know, there's a lot of these rules around it,

39:21 but I I like to teach individuals just

39:23 to learn how to get comfortable with being uncomfortable,

39:26 and a lot of these ideas help with that.

39:29 There's, you know, simple rules of thumb with stretching

39:31 is like even for a lot of individuals,

39:34 just knowing that you just shouldn't move at least at the start is number one.

39:40 I don't know if you've implemented a stretch with someone before

39:42 and like the first 30 seconds they've moved five times already to readjust.

39:45 And it's like we're not we're not allowing the muscle

39:47 to stay under tension yet as we keep moving.

39:50 It's like when you're teaching technique, it's like no, keep your feet there.

39:55 I didn't put them here.

39:57 You want them there.

39:58 Puddle the[ __] your back.

40:00 Yeah.

40:00 Well, this is and this is a funny argument, right?

40:03 Because if someone is so stiff that they can't hold a stretch,

40:07 why are we telling them not to stretch and that it's useless?

40:09 It's like they're so jacked up that that stretch

40:12 is actually the isometric entry point that we're looking for.

40:15 Yeah.

40:16 and and and they need to spend time there because I

40:19 mean always performing reps and moving in and out of a ROM,

40:22 we're never actually spending time in that end

40:25 range where we want change to happen, right?

40:28 So, and that's really what what stretching is

40:29 for me is spending time in that end range.

40:32 So, if someone doesn't have it and I can create it

40:35 and facilitate it and get them training it at a high intensity,

40:39 change is going to happen.

40:40 Right?

40:40 This could be good for anyone that's coming out of a muscle

40:43 tear or an injury and they really lack um options, right?

40:48 They don't have any options for training those tissues.

40:52 So, that's a little bit of the the PNF kind of stuff history, right?

40:56 And like the contraction stuff for anyone

40:58 listening and they're confused, it's all the same.

41:01 It's all the same.

41:03 It's just a different organization

41:04 with different terminology, different systems.

41:07 Uh, but we're just trying to learn how to contract

41:09 on the on the different sides of the joint and learn how to be there.

41:13 Um, for the I guess spinal flexion stuff, well, we know we can't avoid it.

41:20 You know, there's there's some good studies

41:21 out there that show even with neutral spine,

41:24 there's still degrees of spine flexion occurring.

41:27 So, to tell people to avoid it is kind of well, we can't there.

41:31 It's always going to occur at some capacity.

41:34 And do we need to like train it through a huge range of motion really heavy?

41:39 Depends on the person in front of us, maybe not, right?

41:42 Like I would argue a martial artist or BJJ

41:45 athlete that gets compromised a lot in those positions

41:48 may need to learn how to be

41:50 in a deeper spinal flexion under load than most people.

41:54 Um, but for me it's more of the exposure thing.

41:58 It's like if I can and what that's how it's helped me.

42:00 I I came out of that school of don't bend your back, don't round your back.

42:06 I think it limited me as a powerlifter.

42:08 I'm I'm conventional deadlifting better now than I

42:11 did in my 20s and I'm in my 40s because I'm actually leaning into some flexion

42:15 and I used to try to avoid it, right?

42:18 Um but it exposed me to how I can move my spine

42:21 and develop that mobility on that side posterior chain of my body.

42:26 Um, and I went through a very very long progressive scale of it.

42:30 In the gymnastics community,

42:32 a bodyweight Jefferson curl is like kind of like a gold standard.

42:36 So, I did chase that.

42:38 Uh, at the time it was 185 pounds because I was

42:41 quite lean and I did that for reps through full ROM,

42:45 straight legs, but that took me like three years

42:48 or or so to get up to that point.

42:51 And I was doing 10 pounds and I couldn't even touch the floor when I started.

42:55 So, you know, people don't see that stuff

42:58 and enough and they don't consider like how

43:01 long sometimes it takes for this like created

43:04 exposure to these uh unique compromised positions, right?

43:09 It's like someone wants to do a Jefferson curl this year.

43:11 It's like uh you know, it's just something you should train all the time.

43:14 You should train spine flexion to some capacity all the time.

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44:15 Now, let's get back to the podcast.

44:17 Let me ask a question on that because I'm thinking about this ego,

44:20 you know, selfishly.

44:21 What it like for me, okay,

44:24 my my PR I wanted to echo actually my PR deadlift I

44:27 was when I finally got away from like trying to hold like

44:31 this neutral back and just accepting that I was setting my dead

44:34 with a slight like with some spinal flexion right off the floor.

44:38 Just accepting it's going to happen.

44:40 Mhm.

44:41 Um, and I and it makes me reflect back

44:44 to yesterday I was snatching and I'm like, man,

44:48 I did that for a while and now sometimes I struggle

44:51 to hold any type of extension at all off the floor

44:55 and it made me actually think maybe I should be training

44:59 more of like a Jefferson curl to try and strengthen that position.

45:05 um and to to become more organized and maybe more coordinated with it.

45:10 What would that look like on a week for you?

45:12 Like a week of training.

45:13 Let's say I'm on a a typical uh push pull like or upper lower upper lower.

45:21 You know, I'm doing an upper day, a lower day, an upper day, a lower day.

45:24 What would that look like as far as where you would place the Jefferson curl?

45:27 Would that be an everyday thing or would

45:29 that just be something I do like twice a week?

45:31 I would just do it even once a week.

45:34 I've only ever done it once a week myself for the last 12 plus years.

45:39 Once a week, but uh I would have

45:42 probably another exposure to some forward folding stuff,

45:46 elephant walks or, you know,

45:49 just getting down there and spending some time in that position.

45:52 So, not as much of a spine flexion under load kind of position,

45:55 but just if it's something where we're like trying to open that range up,

45:59 something softer on another day of the week would be helpful.

46:02 give you a second exposure.

46:04 Kind of like a high low day, I guess, for Jefferson curls.

46:08 That works quite well for anyone that's into that.

46:11 And I always like to um at least balance out the equation a bit

46:16 with that more graded exposure to spinal

46:20 extension stuff like back bridges, things like that.

46:23 which is why I got so into throwers

46:25 thrower content throwing uh training because Jesus,

46:29 you just don't see, you know, I learned how to do a back bridge

46:33 and gymnastics style training and then you're seeing

46:36 the application of it under velocity and speed

46:39 and you're seeing like what's capable in the body.

46:42 It's pretty cool.

46:44 But I do try to balance things out a little bit.

46:46 So if someone's working the spinal flexion stuff under my programming,

46:50 I'm going to have some kind of uh complement to like getting the spinal erectors

46:55 in a little more extension and getting the upper

46:57 back t-spine in those kind of ranges as well.

47:00 So yeah, what do you say to people that Okay.

47:04 So all right.

47:04 Well, I I'll go with two questions here.

47:07 Let's say you do, you know, let's say you got a leg day, upper body day.

47:11 Would you do like Jefferson curls day one?

47:14 Maybe back bridge is day two for your upper body day.

47:18 Maybe day three you're back to a leg day.

47:20 That's an elephant walk.

47:21 Then day four you do some type of bent arm pullover.

47:25 Would that be something of decent practical application?

47:32 Yeah, absolutely.

47:33 Um, I don't think the the I guess the bridge

47:37 stuff may not have to be done as as much,

47:39 but it depends on what they're they're training for.

47:42 But that would be a good balance there.

47:44 Like some some back bridge skill stuff,

47:46 which really at the start that stuff feels a little bit more like elephant walk,

47:50 low intensity type work because you're just

47:52 trying to get people in positions and stretching

47:55 a little bit more because it's like they

47:56 haven't spent any time in a static abdominal stretch.

47:59 So, it's just like, holy[ __] like put that near the end

48:01 of the week where they can spend some time and uh

48:05 maybe the pullover kind of weighted stuff in the front of the week

48:08 so they can train those up a little bit more balanced.

48:11 So I think traditionally if I'm looking at those kind

48:14 of programs that front load intensity at the front of the week,

48:18 I would usually do some softer bridge stuff at the end of the week.

48:22 Um just think about some of the stretches for those kind of things.

48:26 Okay, that makes sense.

48:27 Now, what if you have somebody who's consistently

48:29 cramping when they do like a back bridge?

48:32 What do you how do you what do you think that is?

48:34 And how long does it take to sort of overcome the the that point of just like

48:40 they go to hit a back bridge and their erectors

48:43 or their romboid is just like immediately seizing?

48:46 Like is that yo, give me a couple seconds dealing with it and then

48:49 over a long period of time we're going to eventually come out of this.

48:53 Yeah.

48:53 I think a lot of people jump too far on the back bridge.

48:56 they go right into some shapes that maybe they aren't ready for.

49:00 Um, so I like to look at the back bridge in layers.

49:03 The hip flexors and the abdominals need to be flexible.

49:08 So I'll often spend a lot of time

49:09 in that area first developing some hip flexor and abdominal flexibility.

49:14 Um, the shoulders, they need to be through

49:17 a certain range of motion and flexion and then

49:20 the back is where it's cramping through

49:22 the erectors and stuff needs to be trained up.

49:24 So even doing some, you know, back extension work,

49:28 uh, that kind of thing can go really far.

49:30 But for someone that's quite limited in cramping like that, I'll usually look

49:34 at like the anterior chain flexibility

49:37 where that's almost non-existent for most people.

49:40 No one's no one really stretches their abs.

49:42 No one stretches their hip flexors.

49:44 Uh, no one really takes their ab

49:45 work through full range of motion either, right?

49:48 So often we're looking at shoulders,

49:50 we're looking at the hips and it's like your trunk,

49:53 your trunk is super jacked up, right?

49:55 The obliques don't bend and it's like we got to spend some some time there.

49:59 And that's been the game changer for me, man.

50:01 Like my my back bridge right now, __] it's it still was the hardest thing.

50:07 Like my wife used to have to uh spot me, try to lift my rib cage up.

50:12 It was like the only way I could get

50:13 into somewhat of a bridge or get my hands behind me.

50:16 But it was when I started doing that, I started really training my abs,

50:20 more my trunk through more ROM

50:22 and really developed my flexibility there and really

50:25 just spending time focusing on endrange

50:27 back extension strength like cobras in yoga.

50:30 You can really I've you've probably seen Olympic lifters do that too

50:33 where they're on the floor and they're doing back extensions under load.

50:37 It's[ __] crazy.

50:39 But spending time on those things and like my back bridge is just like solid.

50:44 like it's more solid than it was thought when I, you know,

50:48 was just doing that[ __] and wasn't lifting at all

50:50 and I'm lifting and deadlifting and all this[ __] and I'm

50:52 just flying in my back bridge now because those qualities

50:55 are way uh more developed than they were back then.

50:59 Walk me through when when I see the Steinborn squat, right?

51:03 Like I like to think about uh throwing actually

51:06 a lot and and the rotation involved with throwing.

51:10 Yeah.

51:10 Um, but I'm I'm watching you do the Steinborn and I'm like, first of all,

51:15 so you and I are the same age and it blows me away that you even

51:18 want to do that, but then you got like I don't even remember what you had on.

51:22 I swear in my mind it was 500 lb.

51:24 I could be completely wrong.

51:28 No, but but I'm sitting there like what is this lunatic doing?

51:32 So, walk walk me through like the the key components as far as the prep

51:39 for it as as like what are like some checkpoints from a mobility,

51:43 you know, I don't want to say mobility,

51:45 but like these are the checkpoint exercises that you

51:48 got to be able to to do proficiently

51:51 before you can start to screw around with it.

51:53 And then, you know, over time,

51:54 I'm assuming it's just like standard progressive overload.

51:57 If you've got these things achieved, these exercises here,

52:02 now you can start tossing weight on the actual movement because you

52:05 will you will gain the range from the intensity of the movement.

52:09 Yeah.

52:09 Um Yeah.

52:09 So, I want to hear what you have to say about this.

52:12 Yeah.

52:12 I mean, I've I've had good success walking

52:15 most people through a Steinborn in the workshops.

52:18 I I do workshops now and that's part of it.

52:20 We go through some oldtime lifts and you know if you just

52:24 get people doing it in a facilitated environment where it's being taught

52:28 and instructed like a lot of people can Steinborn obviously putting a lot

52:33 of weight on there is what's hard but it makes for quite

52:36 an athletic kind of movement when people start realizing like holy[ __]

52:39 a plate feels like two plates again right because it's like that's what

52:43 it was for me I got into it during COVID so the world

52:47 shut down I had a barbell and some bumper plates and I just

52:50 started doing some old[ __] in the backyard just messing around and uh

52:53 I did I think I hit 275 on the Steinborn and it

52:56 just like almost destroyed me like two and a half plates and then

53:00 I got in I got some coaching so there's a a guy

53:03 out there who teaches and trains this stuff and has for a long

53:06 time James Fuller uh strongman archaeology is his tag and I did

53:11 some coaching with him and he just like actually walked me through

53:14 some technical points I don't think anyone would think about with a Steinborn.

53:19 So, positioning the barbell on your back in such a way

53:23 where you can make it more of an efficient movement.

53:26 So, when I go through the process of doing that with heavier weight,

53:30 I actually set it up more in a low bar position.

53:32 So, the bar and the weight's a little closer

53:34 to my hips so that when I tip off the floor,

53:37 I'm in more of like a hip dominant power position.

53:40 So, if you watch my tip or my rock over,

53:42 when it rocks over, I I almost spend no time in a stuck squat.

53:47 I just kind of drive it right up because of this hip dominant kind of setup.

53:51 Low bar position.

53:53 When I come to stand, I use that momentum to reposition the bar to high bar.

53:58 So, these are some things he taught me just to make it more efficient, right?

54:01 And then you start doing it, you're thinking, "Oh man,

54:03 like I can actually move a decent amount

54:04 of weight without it feeling like very fatiguing." Um,

54:10 positioning the barbell offcentered.

54:12 So, if you think about it, when you're closer to the weight off the floor,

54:15 it's going to tip off faster and it's not going

54:17 to be as demanding on your obliques when you laterally bend.

54:21 So, that's another technical point there.

54:23 Like, that's quite helpful when I set it up that way.

54:25 And it tips, it comes off the floor a little more with ease,

54:28 and then you can drive up, reset the bar, and go kind of thing.

54:32 So, those things help a lot for sure when

54:35 you're going through the process of doing a heavy Steinborn.

54:38 But um yeah, like I think just knowing some of those ways

54:44 of getting like a mechanical advantage on your setup is one thing.

54:48 But another thing I like to do even

54:50 just with like basic barbell squatting and some mobility

54:54 stuff is I'll just get people sitting

54:56 in a squat and just uh moving side to side.

54:59 So like a Steinborn tap it's called.

55:02 It's quite a nice movement where you're just you're just

55:04 trying to learn where that space is because it's so unfamiliar.

55:08 You're you're performing a side bend

55:10 and feeling the barbell actually make contact.

55:12 So your brain's kind of getting an understanding of the ROM.

55:15 So you're turning and and hitting the almost

55:18 like like I don't know the weightlifting crowd

55:22 could could relate to like Lu Xiao standing

55:25 and doing Chinese side bends like with a barbell.

55:28 You're doing this at the grass.

55:30 Yeah.

55:30 just in a squat.

55:31 And what's nice about that progression is you can extend it and get people

55:35 pushing up into hip extension like they're going

55:38 up into that tip and that rock over, right?

55:40 So now you touch and then you extend your leg up and then come back down

55:45 and now you're going side to side and it

55:47 actually just makes for a nice accessory exercise.

55:49 I use that in a lot of my programming just

55:51 for fun for like you know lateral flexion strength stuff.

55:55 Um but you know you just start

56:00 with the Steinborn then now that you're like playing around

56:02 with that the like do you think of any sport

56:06 that's like yo this actually could help this sport specifically?

56:09 Yeah, absolutely.

56:10 Like I mean I with the military background, we did do a lot of physical fitness

56:15 testing for fireman carries was a big one, right?

56:18 So I mean and you'd have to do it with someone the same size, right?

56:22 So if you and I had to pass this test,

56:25 I had to find a partner the same size as me to pass that test.

56:28 So like you're doing it with someone of pretty good weight.

56:31 You're not just picking up someone small.

56:34 Um so obviously for things like that, it can be

56:36 quite helpful to understand how to tip some heavy weight over.

56:39 Um, there's actually a wrestling move.

56:41 It's called like an airplane or something and it's it's like a Steinborn flip.

56:45 I've only seen it a few times, but obviously wrestling is a big one where you

56:49 can get into that position where you're doing that.

56:51 But there is a move it's called like an airplane

56:53 where you you basically sweep someone and you laterally throw them.

56:57 So, that's kind of cool to see.

56:59 Uh, I was even thinking about fireman's carry.

57:01 like hit like this like you you pull over

57:04 and then you sort of dump over top and it's like

57:08 it would be just a as long as you have that col like the you you know how

57:12 to use your over hook like a quick version

57:14 of that the Steinborn would be a good supporting movement there.

57:19 It's like I

57:21 it's it's fun for me to think through this because I I feel like I get

57:25 so lost in my own um like full range weightlifting pio track world that for me

57:35 to like I have yeah I've got three copies of Bill Pearl's book and I'm

57:40 oftentimes doing stuff myself but very rarely

57:42 am I really going all in on something.

57:46 I mean, this would be more so the old old school strongman stuff, but really

57:51 I almost want to use this at like when

57:54 you were when you were describing the Steinborn taps.

57:57 I'm like that could be a good accessory for my weightlifterss.

58:00 Like that could be like a

58:02 I'm going to make them do this in the mornings at the very least.

58:04 It's like,

58:05 yeah, I mean, a weightlifter is is explosively moving into these end ranges.

58:09 And it's like any kind of tool we can give them

58:11 to troubleshoot when things potentially go

58:15 out of or deviate from perfection, right?

58:17 And I think that's a really helpful tool for that.

58:20 I mean, the oldtime stuff is so fun to get

58:22 into because when Steinborn did that, it was a funny contest

58:28 because they just had a barbell loaded on the a platform

58:31 and they were just said and by any means necessary,

58:34 who can get the most amount of weight on their back

58:37 and he went up and did it that way,

58:38 which probably came from working on a farm or just that technique of like how

58:43 you going to tip something over that's really heavy and he just did it and he,

58:46 you know, it was insane how much weight he moved pound for pound,

58:49 especially actually.

58:50 But then just thinking of the other things they did back then that we don't do.

58:54 It's like the one hand lifts.

58:57 Yeah.

58:57 Heavy lifts with one hand, like heavy deadlift variations.

58:59 It's like that's probably the most corrective form of exercise that there is out

59:03 there or organic thing strength-wise we can do and we just stopped doing it.

59:10 Okay, this actually is a good segue from this.

59:13 I I I'm jumping the gun on this is

59:16 the question from our previous podcast was with the strength coach

59:21 for the Chicago Bulls um when they won the world title multiple times.

59:25 The assistant strength coach name is Micah Tone.

59:27 He's now the head of um high performance at the Olympic

59:30 training set uh for USA weightlifting with the USOPC.

59:34 He's been to the Olympics like five times.

59:36 Cool.

59:36 He actually brings this up and he said,

59:38 "Do you have um anything to help with consistent aches and pains

59:45 that will help athletes like push through

59:48 injury while having some type of objective,

59:51 measurable or protocol to possibly mitigate

59:55 these aches and pains?" And the reason

59:58 why I'm pitching this as a question to you from Mike is

1:00:04 when you're bringing up the one- arm stuff and these these old school movements,

1:00:09 could these be part of some type of simple protocol like,

1:00:14 yo, to be healthy on a on a every other day basis,

1:00:18 we got to make sure you can do a one- arm lift or you can do a Steinborn tap.

1:00:21 I don't know.

1:00:21 I want it.

1:00:22 It just triggered me to ask that question there because

1:00:24 I almost felt like you were sort of hitting on it.

1:00:26 Yeah, in a way I was.

1:00:28 And that was a wakeup call for me, too.

1:00:30 The first time I tried the uh straddle

1:00:33 one hand deadlift where you stand over the bar, it's between your legs.

1:00:37 My it was like 50 pounds difference one arm to the other.

1:00:40 I was like, "What the hell?" Like,

1:00:41 I just I've had some shoulder injuries on that other arm,

1:00:43 which I've rehabed a traditional way with a lot of isolated kind of stuff.

1:00:50 But really, I think what's missing

1:00:53 in the corrective exercise world is load and intensity.

1:00:56 So when you look at a lot of these corrective positions,

1:00:59 it's always some kind of split stance, some kind of, you know,

1:01:03 coming down to hinge pattern deadlift of some sort,

1:01:06 but we're never challenging load or putting any weight in anyone's hand, right?

1:01:11 And when you do a heavy one-hand deadlift, whether it's straddle, uh, suitcase,

1:01:16 or even just like the straight bar in front of you,

1:01:19 like a normal setup for deadlift with one hand,

1:01:21 that really challenges you and gets you to selforganize yourself like you would

1:01:27 in the real world or in a scenario where you have to move some[ __] So,

1:01:32 you know, this certainly for I think athletes in season, you know,

1:01:37 that's always the challenge is like how

1:01:38 can we keep challenging these guys to just

1:01:40 give them a stimulus that's not going to put them too much at risk.

1:01:44 One reason why I really love the one-hand lifts because like you're just

1:01:47 never going to exceed what you can do bilaterally on a one-hand lift.

1:01:53 So, you're going to get a strong stimulus and you're going

1:01:55 to be obviously a lot safer from inseason kind of mishaps.

1:02:01 Um, that's why it was such an impressive feat back then, right?

1:02:03 Because if you have guys like uh

1:02:05 Herman Goer deadlifted 600 pounds with one hand,

1:02:09 people used to be like, well, what could he do with two?

1:02:12 That's like 1,200 lb, right?

1:02:14 Yeah.

1:02:14 Yeah.

1:02:14 Yeah.

1:02:16 People say it with single leg squats.

1:02:17 It's like, no, no, that's not how it works.

1:02:19 No, really.

1:02:20 It's still legit.

1:02:21 It's still cool, but no.

1:02:23 Um, so you know, it's I think we've kind

1:02:26 of overlooked that in the corrective exercise world and corrective

1:02:30 exercise has kind of blown up into this thing

1:02:32 where you got to fix yourself and it's like, well, what do you mean?

1:02:35 We're all we're we're uh imperfectly built anyway.

1:02:40 So, we're supposed to actually know how

1:02:41 to lean into these imperfections as well.

1:02:43 And I think one hand lifts do that quite well.

1:02:47 Um, and I think for people that maybe are,

1:02:50 for me, it's not even flexibility or mobility.

1:02:54 It's looking at what we're not training,

1:02:56 like what shapes and what positions aren't being addressed.

1:03:00 And you can see some strength coaches doing that really well

1:03:03 with even like uh I always like looking at Pat Mahomes

1:03:08 uh training where his trainer showing him some back bridge stuff

1:03:11 and then there's a clip of him being tackled weird, right?

1:03:14 and he's like moving into this back bench and his trainer

1:03:16 is learning how to expose him to those shapes,

1:03:19 he doesn't probably need a perfect yoga back bridge.

1:03:23 But the more ways that we can introduce him to expose him

1:03:27 to those potential mishaps or positions where he's going to get exposed to it,

1:03:32 and you know, this is the argument for me when it comes to full range training.

1:03:36 As athletes going hard on the field, you're you're going to be exposed to some

1:03:41 endrange awkward position whether you like it or not.

1:03:45 Obviously, to the extent of how hard you

1:03:47 should put that in your training or reinforce it,

1:03:51 it doesn't have to be at a crazy extent that maybe I

1:03:54 do myself sometimes because I'm not an athlete like I used to be.

1:03:57 I don't go on the field and do that stuff.

1:04:00 But, you know, certainly I think that's the argument

1:04:03 is when athletes get these weird injuries and stuff.

1:04:05 Sometimes it's like you really can't prevent those, but we

1:04:09 can certainly do our best to prevent them.

1:04:12 And I think sometimes prevention's best tool is exposing them to these awkward

1:04:16 positions that are really hard to do in the weight room.

1:04:18 Right.

1:04:20 I guess.

1:04:20 Okay.

1:04:21 So, I wanted to share with you

1:04:23 on this because you you mentioned the like the Steinborn,

1:04:28 the one- arm lifts and stuff like that.

1:04:29 And Rusty Wit, who is he's the strength and conditioning

1:04:32 coach uh for the University of Florida's football team.

1:04:35 He was at Two Lane, just got this job.

1:04:36 They, you know, they just moved into Florida the there.

1:04:40 And he actually mentioned in he was texting me.

1:04:43 we're talking about training and he's like I said,

1:04:45 why are you doing these specific deadlifts and they're

1:04:49 doing like a double over no double over they

1:04:54 can do a hook but there's no straps deadlifts

1:04:57 and he goes the reason being is I know somebody

1:05:01 is not their grip is not strong enough

1:05:04 to put their back in a bad position where they

1:05:07 would hurt their back from a double over deadlift

1:05:11 and it made me think about the single arm stuff

1:05:15 and I'm I was going through this internally just

1:05:18 as you were speaking and I'm trying to think through

1:05:21 how you know how to how to train those qualities

1:05:26 because then you mentioned the Pat Mahomes thing and I

1:05:29 have my initial negative response is like Pat Mahomes

1:05:33 posts right like that post is cool I know exactly

1:05:35 what you're talking about but where I struggle is

1:05:38 I'll have a I'll have a parent hit me up

1:05:41 and they'll say Pat does this, we need to do this.

1:05:44 And I'm going, your kid can't even ask the grass back squad 225.

1:05:48 Why am I doing this[ __] And so to fight you back,

1:05:52 I want to be like, yo, Lucas, you're you're putting out this[ __] you know?

1:05:58 And and and then I started like I was I was listening to you,

1:06:01 but at the same time having this internal struggle as you were talking going,

1:06:06 how do we balance it?

1:06:08 Yeah.

1:06:08 to where we're training those shapes and we're training

1:06:11 those those areas the way that we need to.

1:06:15 Yeah.

1:06:14 But we're not being taken away from like the fundamentals

1:06:18 of of of of strength and the fundamentals of, you know, getting stronger.

1:06:24 And then I started to think about myself, well,

1:06:25 how often should I be doing a one- arm lift?

1:06:27 Is it once a week?

1:06:28 Is it just like Yeah.

1:06:30 And I'm I'm playing this game right now where I'm trying to think through

1:06:34 because I was trying to defend you with Rusty's scenario,

1:06:37 but then at the same time I was so triggered by the Mahomes

1:06:40 post because I started to think about my high school parents.

1:06:43 So I don't know.

1:06:44 I want to see I know that was a long drawn out explanation,

1:06:47 but I want to see what what your what your takeaway is from something

1:06:49 like that as as a as a as an argument almost against it.

1:06:53 Yeah, absolutely.

1:06:54 And I think this is where we have to come up with I mean standards

1:06:58 say what you will about standards of practice

1:07:00 or training this is what's helpful for them

1:07:03 right and a lot of coaches look for that kind of stuff for me you

1:07:06 know they come in they they want

1:07:07 to study the training programs and ask questions

1:07:09 and look at some of the systems and make those decisions like okay I have

1:07:15 a team of whatever for an hour and a half how can I even think about

1:07:20 introducing them to a back bridge or a back

1:07:22 bend or anything like that and this is

1:07:24 where we have to look at the things that do fit in nicely into programming.

1:07:28 So then we, you know, we lean into things like a pullover.

1:07:30 We lean into things like a hanging back bend or hanging cobra

1:07:34 because they're quite accessible and and they can be progressed quite nicely.

1:07:38 Um we can start making a decision as to whether

1:07:41 or not we want to do assisted bridges.

1:07:43 You know, you cross someone over a bench

1:07:46 after they do some pullovers and then they

1:07:48 can actually already have the rib cage elevated

1:07:50 and they can perform a little isometric, right?

1:07:52 So this starts to come down to management of time and how to actually lay

1:07:57 out a session which you know Mike Bole used to do that quite well and you

1:08:00 know he he's functional training books used to save my life when I first started

1:08:04 as a strength coach because it was very organized it was like fit all your stuff

1:08:08 in here right and I even still reference that stuff now but I look

1:08:12 at some of these qualities that aren't getting

1:08:14 trained so these these big long range positions

1:08:18 uh how am I going to fit those in uh you know a back bridge

1:08:22 or bend shape and then a spine flexion

1:08:25 shape or posterior chain kind of flexibility exercise.

1:08:27 Like how do we fit those things in?

1:08:30 And um you know there's a way to do it.

1:08:33 Uh there's certainly a way to do it

1:08:35 and you probably already are doing it to be honest,

1:08:37 but maybe there's some strategies there that we could get

1:08:41 a little more out of some of the we could create some

1:08:43 super sets or things like that to get a little more

1:08:45 out of what you're already doing because it sounds like you're doing

1:08:47 that's what I was just thinking there.

1:08:49 Yeah.

1:08:49 Yeah.

1:08:49 like it sounds like you're probably already doing some of it anyway.

1:08:52 And of course, yeah, I've been a part of that.

1:08:55 I get a lot of messages sometimes when people

1:08:57 get excited about those Pat Mahome videos and they're like,

1:08:59 I need my kid to do this or they need to be able to do that.

1:09:03 And it's like, okay, what do they do now?

1:09:04 Are they even strong?

1:09:06 Yeah.

1:09:06 Yeah.

1:09:08 My my son Go ahead.

1:09:10 Go ahead.

1:09:10 No, tell me your about your son.

1:09:12 Well, my son's kind of like my my guinea pig.

1:09:14 He's 16 now.

1:09:16 And we haven't done anything, I think, off the cuff too non-traditional.

1:09:21 He squats, he presses, he deadlifts, he does his conditioning and pio work.

1:09:25 And I've just added some of these things.

1:09:27 So, we just add some of the things I've talked

1:09:29 to you about with some stances and some basic bridge stuff.

1:09:33 And it's just things that he doesn't get exposed to.

1:09:37 Um, he's doing quite well.

1:09:38 He's getting crazy strong.

1:09:40 And it's how much more does he need from those things?

1:09:43 Well, it just depends, I guess, how far he goes.

1:09:46 But, you know, he's holding a low bridge now where he's it's almost like

1:09:49 a tripod and he just kind of holds that so he understands that position.

1:09:54 Um, but giving him this little exposure to some of these weird things,

1:09:57 but you know, he's still doing all

1:10:00 the same traditional stuff that we we know works.

1:10:03 We know what works and you know, these young guys coming in got to be strong.

1:10:08 you know that it takes a lot of while to get strong

1:10:10 and that's been the the big thing for him is just having

1:10:13 a few of these things in there but like we got

1:10:14 to get strong buddy and we got to do it with good form.

1:10:17 Same kind of approach that we used when I was a kid.

1:10:21 What do you think?

1:10:22 Like do you teach kids how to weightlift?

1:10:24 Do you do you do cleans or snatches?

1:10:26 Um not so much the weightlifting side.

1:10:28 I I took weightlifting certifications.

1:10:31 Um I've done some weightlifting but I also blew my ACL out playing rugby.

1:10:35 So, I mean, of all the things uh I try to keep exposing myself to, the weight

1:10:40 the weightlifting stuff is the one thing like I

1:10:42 don't I do no foot uh snatches and cleans.

1:10:46 So, like I don't really do hard jumps on that.

1:10:48 It's the only thing.

1:10:49 But I've been restoring my plyometric work uh is a lot better than it

1:10:53 used to be given some of the new kind of ideas being presented around that.

1:10:57 But um yeah, I teach all that stuff I have for a long time.

1:11:00 And like I said to you, it was like when I just started becoming so

1:11:04 mobile and flexible was when it was like, you know,

1:11:06 I have to kind of answer the call to all these questions

1:11:09 and people not feeling like they could figure that stuff out, right?

1:11:13 So yeah, these days it's it's more of a focus there.

1:11:16 And my traditional programming stuff is just a little bit of a blend.

1:11:20 It doesn't look much different than what we already know is good stuff.

1:11:23 It just has a little bit more of uh

1:11:25 some of these other things that get missed added in.

1:11:29 Okay.

1:11:29 Okay, I want to ask you a real off-the-cuff question.

1:11:32 What are the best the best lifts that will transfer to skateboarding?

1:11:38 Well, Astigrass squats 100%.

1:11:41 I mean, getting back into skateboarding now and my powerlifting years,

1:11:44 I wasn't an astigrass squatter and I think

1:11:47 it had obviously a lot to do with mobility,

1:11:49 but also some not training certain technical qualities on on the high bar squat.

1:11:54 But, um, I'm not having any problems getting back on the board now.

1:11:58 I think that that's a really good one.

1:12:00 And I would say those two stances, the the horse stance and the long lunge,

1:12:06 I've worked with some skateboarders and it's just been

1:12:08 a matter of introducing them to those and loading them up,

1:12:10 like getting them really strong, thinking about like, you know,

1:12:13 how can we load these positions because I mean,

1:12:17 you're always slipping on the board and stretching out the groin,

1:12:19 stretching out the hamstrings, those sort of things.

1:12:22 But, uh, pio and some squats, man, like you're going to be flying on the board.

1:12:27 I've been doing all right.

1:12:30 All right.

1:12:31 Whe when I'm thinking through this, okay,

1:12:34 I have a I have a couple I have a couple like long life dreams.

1:12:39 I want to I want to eventually try to do a split.

1:12:42 If I wanted to do a split,

1:12:45 how long would that take for me to be able to be able to hit a split?

1:12:50 And what would that look like practice-wise?

1:12:53 What would that look like, you know, as far as actually training is is involved?

1:13:01 Um, it took me 3 years to really lock that split

1:13:04 in to like how like I can train it now like I have been,

1:13:08 you know, uh, it still takes me a little prep to warm up.

1:13:11 I can't just slide right into my split.

1:13:12 I can, you know, takes a little warm up and I can get into a passive split.

1:13:16 But three years there was a lot of trial and error for me, right?

1:13:20 So, there's a lot of trying to figure out what works.

1:13:22 Um, most of my dedicated clients that are really locked

1:13:26 in, like I want to do the splits are getting really,

1:13:30 really good progress within 18 months to 24 months.

1:13:33 So, you're looking at least a year and a half putting some work in.

1:13:37 Um, I've never trained much more than once a week.

1:13:40 I still train once a week, sometimes once every 10 days.

1:13:45 Um, it's recovery, right?

1:13:47 like you need to recover from the split.

1:13:50 Uh a lot of people don't treat it like strength training,

1:13:53 but it's very much the same as strength training.

1:13:55 And even to a higher extent, hard on the nervous system,

1:13:58 uh your adductors will be a little banged up for longer.

1:14:02 So, you got to be smart about where you're putting it in the programming.

1:14:05 Um I did do some specialized training.

1:14:10 Um Dan Vanzant, so he's flexibility research online.

1:14:13 He he posts a lot of good stuff on flexibility.

1:14:17 Uh he had an old program years ago.

1:14:19 It was like a specialized three days

1:14:21 a week and you're progressively adding weight like

1:14:24 each week like holding it in your hands which I've gotten back into that now.

1:14:28 I'm I'm doing a lot of weighted split

1:14:30 work where I'm holding my splits with weight.

1:14:33 But I did do that for uh two months and it

1:14:36 was around the time I did actually get my split.

1:14:39 So I was actually loading it up, getting it strong outside of my max

1:14:43 range and then progressively getting myself lower.

1:14:46 But ever since then, I I haven't trained it more than once

1:14:49 a week or once every 10 days prioritizing recovery.

1:14:52 And uh you know, it's the thing about splits that people don't

1:14:59 consider is like just understanding the technical qualities of holding a split.

1:15:03 So, we know we can only abduct our leg so far.

1:15:07 And there's this old test where it's people would say like

1:15:09 if you can't lift your leg this high, you can't do split.

1:15:12 That's not necessarily the the reason you can't do a split

1:15:16 because that's only driven by external rotation and um abduction.

1:15:21 If we start thinking about like what happens when we're

1:15:24 in a split and we're keeping the feet on the ground,

1:15:27 you can actually drive a lot of qualities of internal rotation into your split.

1:15:32 And as you're doing that, you can actually

1:15:33 start to learn to override this limit in abduction,

1:15:37 like how far you can lift your leg.

1:15:39 And that's really how I obtained my split because I couldn't lift my leg.

1:15:42 I did those tests when I started.

1:15:43 I was like, "Fuck, this says I can't do split because I can't

1:15:46 lift my leg this high." But when you start to study uh Thomas Kurs,

1:15:51 he's actually one of the first that presented that that I have read about.

1:15:55 I don't know if anyone else did at the time,

1:15:56 but a lot of people talk about it now.

1:15:58 So, his book stretching scientifically,

1:16:01 he talks about the split in the horse stance

1:16:03 this way because it's not traditional to martial arts.

1:16:06 They teach a posterior pelvic tilt which is like movementbased and like

1:16:10 fundamental for transitions where he taught and teaches anterior pelvic tilt.

1:16:17 And part of the reason he talked about

1:16:18 that was to override as well the uh impingement.

1:16:22 So your femur gets impinged in the hip socket.

1:16:25 And if you learn how to train your hip this way, it kind of overrides that.

1:16:30 So a lot of leaning into that.

1:16:32 You probably are a lot farther along than you would think if

1:16:34 you just leaned into training the isometrics with your hip in that position.

1:16:38 Um, yeah, that's you probably could think the carryover of like a deep classic

1:16:44 squat is to a to a like a decent classic squat to a split.

1:16:52 Probably not as much as it's promoted because okay, you need you need load.

1:16:56 You need to be under load.

1:16:58 Like I would I would even argue that just an isometric

1:17:01 split hold probably is the best adductor exercise you could do.

1:17:05 You don't have to force the ROM,

1:17:07 but just spread the legs and hold with those hip qualities.

1:17:10 Your If I'm like spread like this and I'm holding like dumbbells here.

1:17:16 Yeah.

1:17:16 Like would that what you're talking about?

1:17:19 Um, you probably wouldn't need dumbbells right away,

1:17:22 but you'd looking at certain hip qualities like

1:17:24 on where your hips are located and positioned first.

1:17:27 But I don't even think you need dumbbells for most people.

1:17:29 Like if you just spread the legs open

1:17:31 and you actually understand the quality of the hip,

1:17:33 you're going to get a huge stimulus on your adductors.

1:17:38 Okay.

1:17:39 All right.

1:17:39 What What about Okay.

1:17:40 If I'm looking at like Squat Youu,

1:17:42 the the the strength and conditioning world, the fitness world right now,

1:17:47 what do you think guys like like someone like Aaron,

1:17:50 he's had a huge impact on a lot of people?

1:17:53 Like a lot of people have positively come out of, you know,

1:17:57 been impacted by him.

1:17:58 And I I even like you know I'll take sometimes I'll I'll

1:18:01 look at something like Athlete X and I'll sort of like it

1:18:04 triggers me but at the same time I'm like you know what

1:18:06 a lot of people have been b they benefit from that first step

1:18:11 into fitness and I guess my question was going to be is

1:18:14 like what do you see as like where they've gone wrong and where

1:18:19 they've where what they're missing in their message as far as like

1:18:23 a potential for improvement to bridge

1:18:27 this loaded slightly more intense movement pattern,

1:18:32 movement training into into the the overarching sphere of of fitness.

1:18:39 I think they just haven't done uh enough work

1:18:41 in the areas that they talk about like they know

1:18:44 about like like they they're talking about these uh disciplines

1:18:48 of training uh like they've done it and they haven't.

1:18:52 Okay.

1:18:52 So, I didn't I didn't really foster a solid

1:18:56 opinion about stretching and flexibility until I I did

1:18:59 it for a long time and studied the different

1:19:02 worlds and kind of came up with my own conclusions.

1:19:04 And I don't think enough coaches spend the time to do that.

1:19:07 We're just saying or, you know,

1:19:10 echoing what has been said by other people that we probably look up to.

1:19:14 And that's fine.

1:19:16 But I think it's important to recognize that if that person hasn't done the work

1:19:20 to even understand what it is the person who's having success doing it is doing.

1:19:25 Like if he's going to say stretching doesn't work and it's a waste of time.

1:19:29 But then if you look at my cl

1:19:30 my account and all my clients are having great success

1:19:33 stretching and they're just doing it in a bit

1:19:35 of a different way or they're thinking about it differently.

1:19:37 Like why wouldn't you at least try to see

1:19:40 what's going on that's different or try to understand it?

1:19:43 That's always been even for me I try to do that where if a new

1:19:47 idea or thought is brought forward before I make an assumption I'm like okay I'm

1:19:52 going to like investigate this a bit see like what what's worth taking from it

1:19:56 and you know there's always something you're

1:19:59 always going to get something from an idea

1:20:02 even if it's an idea that you've heard of before just being you know

1:20:06 repeated a different way and I think

1:20:07 what drives people crazy that have been around

1:20:11 for a while when Aaron and and Wedding

1:20:13 start saying uh really uh limited thoughts

1:20:18 like that is like they just haven't done

1:20:19 any work in those areas they're talking about.

1:20:21 It's like I would argue that one of the reasons that a lot

1:20:24 of these powerlifters can't do Jefferson curls

1:20:26 very well is because of their frame.

1:20:28 They got these big protruding kind of guts and we have to figure out how to get

1:20:33 them doing spine flexion a bit differently than

1:20:35 a yoga person because their frame is different, right?

1:20:38 So, they're going to be under way more pressure in spine flexion when they get

1:20:42 in those ranges than someone who would be more slim kind of uh setup, right?

1:20:48 So, it's like we're not thinking about those things.

1:20:50 We're just like thinking in absolutes.

1:20:52 And as you know, someone coming from the throwing world,

1:20:54 that's just not how it works, man.

1:20:57 Right.

1:20:57 Yeah.

1:20:57 100%.

1:20:58 It's like um it's a it's an as the kids would call it, low IQ.

1:21:07 um statement I guess to a point.

1:21:10 Um I I think your answer is is great

1:21:14 because it's like look there unless you really really understand

1:21:18 it and like I could I you know personally

1:21:19 I because I think about myself in the range community

1:21:24 as sort of like this outsider maybe knocking on the door

1:21:26 like hey I'm here but I'm not I'm not in it to the extent I'm not in the club

1:21:32 because I'm not I haven't done enough in that regard.

1:21:35 I've done a we I actually want to send you uh I might DM you after

1:21:39 this to try and get your cell phone cuz

1:21:40 I I have a pullover movement my brother and I

1:21:44 so we learned like this long straight arm

1:21:47 pullover and when we were like 14 where we

1:21:50 started bending our elbows and we called it

1:21:51 the miracle grow and I saw you use this.

1:21:54 I don't know if you've ever seen me post about it,

1:21:57 but I see like I can comment a little bit because we train full range,

1:22:01 we train with pauses, we train with double bounces,

1:22:03 we train all these things in weird positions.

1:22:07 And I think it I think it is it is a it's like just

1:22:12 getting out of the their lane when they have a lane that is quite established.

1:22:17 You know, it's fine to get out of your lane if you have other lanes or if

1:22:19 you have other areas that you've sort

1:22:21 of played around with that can sort of blend.

1:22:23 Uh but when you're so just sort of stuck here, it it Yeah.

1:22:29 You haven't spent enough time to really comment on it.

1:22:31 Um yeah.

1:22:33 Yeah.

1:22:34 And I think it would be it would it would probably be

1:22:35 dogmatic of me to say that like my[ __] works for everyone.

1:22:39 I know it doesn't, right?

1:22:40 Like I know some people just like really

1:22:42 don't like some doing some of those things.

1:22:44 And um I I have to lean into the people that like doing it,

1:22:50 but I'm not going to sit here and say like, "Oh,

1:22:52 everyone's wrong because they don't like my shit." It's like, well, you know,

1:22:55 some people just like training a certain way

1:22:57 and they're fine with what they have, right?

1:23:00 And it's like, I just got to learn to keep learning and growing

1:23:03 and leaning into the people that I've had success doing my stuff with, right?

1:23:07 But you get some people get really tied up

1:23:09 in their how they created their brand around a certain message.

1:23:13 Yeah.

1:23:14 that as soon as that message gets any

1:23:16 kind of flak or, you know, change of thought,

1:23:19 it's like they're not taking the time

1:23:22 to see what's going on outside of their world.

1:23:25 And y there's a lot of great things going on outside of that world,

1:23:29 including how it's affected my life, 12 years doing Jefferson curls now.

1:23:33 Um, and I've trained them at a very high level.

1:23:36 Uh, I can't say that I'm small by any means,

1:23:39 like Winning would say, or that I've been seriously injured,

1:23:42 but That's why I love that your your response is like,

1:23:45 well, I don't think I'm that small,

1:23:49 but you know, you know what the world's like on social media.

1:23:52 A lot of people are chasing attention

1:23:53 and sometimes that's the way you do it, right?

1:23:56 But so I got I have one more question

1:24:01 and and it's based around this is actually like a practical thing.

1:24:06 I like doing hangs myself.

1:24:07 I felt like it does help me when I go downstairs if

1:24:10 I'm sitting all day and I and I go down and do hangs.

1:24:13 I also at time at sometimes I'm like choking myself out

1:24:18 like I can feel my my pecs like literally choking myself out.

1:24:23 So if you get somebody a heavier powerlifter,

1:24:25 how do you navigate that or what's a cue that they could use to like

1:24:30 slightly alter their their positioning so

1:24:33 that they're not feeling as lightheaded?

1:24:35 Yeah, I think I would just get them taking some slack out of the hang.

1:24:39 Like if they're if they're completely relaxed at the shoulder girdle,

1:24:42 I would get them just like actually pulling into some active um position.

1:24:47 That's really what the hollow body does anyway.

1:24:49 If you try to get someone to hollow out in a hang

1:24:51 to kind of pack the shoulder a little bit more, right?

1:24:54 So some Yeah, that's quite common.

1:24:56 That happens to me, too.

1:24:57 If I relax in my hang, I can feel myself getting lightheaded

1:25:00 to to a point where I'm like, "Okay,

1:25:01 I gotta like just pack down a little bit here." You're not all the way,

1:25:04 but I mean that's that's a nice progression anyway.

1:25:06 Just learn how to articulate your your shoulder blades in a hang

1:25:09 is a really nice way to kind of layer off of just hanging.

1:25:13 Um Okay.

1:25:16 Okay, Lucas, I want to ask you to I want

1:25:19 you to give me a question for our next guest,

1:25:22 but I'm going to give you time to think

1:25:24 about it because I'm going to go through this.

1:25:25 I've got I I have a a slight summary here and I've got horse stance,

1:25:32 long lunge, hit some elephant walks, do some pullovers.

1:25:38 I'm going to personally play around with some one hand work,

1:25:40 some Steinborn tap, Steinborn taps, some bridges as accessories.

1:25:45 I'm going to put that into some of my athletes accessory area.

1:25:48 Cool.

1:25:48 Um, and that's where we're going to start to play around with some

1:25:52 of those ranges slowly building that out into some type of application.

1:25:57 Um, and take that as slow as possible and not deviate too much

1:26:02 from what what what I sort of uphold as like the strength standards,

1:26:06 but almost sort of just packing this stuff on as accessories.

1:26:10 Um, as a as a lesson almost from you.

1:26:13 And I and I I want to just tell you like in the beginning you

1:26:16 had said like don't veer too far off of what you really like to do.

1:26:21 And that struck a chord with me being a thrower.

1:26:23 I've almost always sort of um gotten away from throwing in my fitness stuff.

1:26:30 And at the end of the day, I'm still a[ __] thrower.

1:26:33 I still love throwing[ __] I still love rotating and I still love training.

1:26:36 I still love[ __] smashing weights and[ __] right?

1:26:38 It's like it made me as I was saying as as we

1:26:41 were going through this podcast like I'm taking these lessons

1:26:44 and these exercises and this practical application that you just

1:26:48 gave us and and and also the time horizon 18 24

1:26:51 months is some of the stuff you had said

1:26:53 in here takes time and and and I I appreciate all

1:26:57 of the these lessons uh and and the the direct fit

1:27:03 that I'm going to try and plug into the into our system here.

1:27:06 So, I I really am grateful for this.

1:27:08 Um, and I wanted to let you know and I think and and correct me if I'm wrong if

1:27:12 those are some good lessons that we could use

1:27:14 as a even the listener out there today is like horse stance,

1:27:18 elephant walks, long stance or long lunge, uh, the bridges,

1:27:23 pullovers, one hand work, read some old school books.

1:27:27 You dropped a bunch.

1:27:28 So, I I really do I value all this.

1:27:31 Yeah.

1:27:31 Yeah, for sure, man.

1:27:32 I think that's a good takeaway.

1:27:34 Okay, give me if you don't what would be the next question the the question

1:27:39 that you would want to ask someone and you don't know who it's going to be.

1:27:44 When you think about what I've been dealing with lately,

1:27:47 um I think maybe I wonder if uh a nutrition

1:28:06 question would be all right for the next guest.

1:28:08 Yeah, I think that'd be fine.

1:28:11 Um, there is a lot of talk.

1:28:14 I guess I see a lot of influencers talking about eat

1:28:17 whatever you want and you can still lose weight kind of thing.

1:28:21 Um, I'm just I guess I would be curious to hear what

1:28:24 the next uh guest has to say around that if they've had success,

1:28:29 you know, staying in in lean, fit shape, eating whatever they want,

1:28:33 but having their calories uh or macros, whatever, just kind of fit in place.

1:28:39 Because uh I' I've found as I got older like I really I can't the older I get.

1:28:44 I don't know about you,

1:28:45 but if I'm eating like if I have too many cheat meals or meals where I'm

1:28:49 like the my joints and inflammation and things

1:28:53 like that kind of skyrocket through the roof.

1:28:55 But you know certainly I'm not the nutrition guy by any means.

1:29:00 I kind of have a good base of knowledge to ensure

1:29:03 that anyone I help or ask questions about gets a a good,

1:29:06 you know, understanding and I point them in the right direction.

1:29:09 But I don't know, maybe you have some thoughts on that, too.

1:29:12 But that's I I was just going to say,

1:29:14 so we've had Lane Norton, we had uh her name's Dr.

1:29:17 Jesse Hoffman.

1:29:18 Uh Lane Norton's hasn't come out yet.

1:29:21 And then we have um another nutritionist that we're bringing on in in two weeks.

1:29:26 We had coach John John uh Hec come on and dude I would I

1:29:33 feel like I could possibly speak for them but I'm going to speak for myself.

1:29:37 I'm actually in the middle of a YouTube video

1:29:40 where I'm eating the exact same meal at breakfast at lunch and at dinner.

1:29:45 But like the breakfast every day for two weeks is the same meal.

1:29:50 The lunch is the same meal for all lunches.

1:29:52 And then my dinner is the same meal and then I get one snack.

1:29:55 And essentially it's like pigeon holing me into my macros,

1:30:00 which is I I cut my macros by like 800 calories,

1:30:04 but I wanted to make sure I would get 40 grams of fiber, 200 grams of protein,

1:30:08 and then the rest is carbs, and I got like 40 to 60 grams of fat.

1:30:12 M so last night I had told myself in the beginning of the video, you know,

1:30:18 and we're in the process of filming it that I was like,

1:30:20 you know, I got I'm going to get one cheap meal.

1:30:22 We had this hospital come down and they they they

1:30:25 did strength and conditioning with us for the whole weekend.

1:30:27 They they learned from us and I had a piece of pizza, one piece of pizza.

1:30:33 Dude, my farts, my stomach.

1:30:38 I I'm like sitting here like, dude, I feel like I'm about to implode.

1:30:42 And like I've eaten pizza and been fine.

1:30:44 And I'm just my stomach is so in line right

1:30:47 now from just two weeks of like eating oatmeal, pears,

1:30:52 bananas, um an avocado, a pound of chicken,

1:30:56 um some chia seeds, and like it's and then I have sauerkraut.

1:31:02 That's like my meals, right?

1:31:03 Spread out throughout the the day.

1:31:05 and just adding on like, "Oh, I can eat whatever I want."

1:31:08 Dude,[ __] If I was eating pizza all day, even if it fits my macros,

1:31:12 I feel like[ __] Like,

1:31:14 you you to to your point on the the joints, like your energy drops.

1:31:18 And then on top of that, you start to feel like crap.

1:31:20 You want to eat more pizza.

1:31:22 So now I want to eat a whole a whole pizza pie instead of one piece.

1:31:25 Now I'm going to get fatter.

1:31:28 Yeah.

1:31:29 It's interesting.

1:31:30 So, sorry I went off on a rant from your question,

1:31:32 but that's a great question for the for the next guest.

1:31:34 So, I want you to plug your network and uh where people can find you.

1:31:39 I think Instagram is probably the best place

1:31:41 to get into the range of strength stuff.

1:31:43 It's been around the longest, but I am on YouTube.

1:31:46 Uh I'm on all the platforms now.

1:31:48 That's been a hard push the last couple years to get out on all those areas,

1:31:51 but Instagram's probably your best bet to get into everything we do.

1:31:55 And there's a community there now, the Range Strength Network, you know,

1:31:58 and it's like people that are

1:32:00 into the crazy[ __] They're they're into the message,

1:32:03 right, of like training unconventional and doing some different stuff.

1:32:08 So, I think that's a good place to start.

1:32:11 Absolutely.

1:32:11 All right.

1:32:12 Thanks, Coach Lucas Hardy of Range of Strength.

1:32:15 Thanks for having me on.

1:32:18 Peace.