Making Something New: Badlands interview with director Dan Trachtenberg
Film Riot
0:00 Oh my god.
0:01 You know, I felt um it felt awful.
0:04 It felt absolutely awful.
0:06 I can't even imagine.
0:07 Yeah.
0:07 I mean, the the devil on your shoulder
0:09 telling you almost exactly what you're afraid of.
0:12 What does Dan Cloverfield Lane have in common with Prey,
0:14 Killer of Killers, and Predator: Badlands.
0:16 They're all directed by today's guest, Dan Tractenberg.
0:19 Now, Dan is a friend of mine, but as you'll hear me say in our chat,
0:22 Badlands is genuinely some of the most fun I've
0:25 had in the theaters in a very long time.
0:27 who's surprising, exciting, and so well constructed that I wanted
0:30 to pick Dan's brain about all of the above.
0:32 This is spoiler-free, but if you haven't seen the film, take my word for it.
0:36 Go see it on the biggest, loudest screen that you can while you still can.
0:39 But I'm going to stop talking here and start talking with Dan.
0:43 So, you you just released two films in one year,
0:47 and I imagine just one film is intensely daunting.
0:50 So before we jump into the actual creation of the thing,
0:52 I'd love to talk a little life stuff where specifically where it comes
0:56 to the fact that you were making two films at the same time.
0:59 Like what what did that look like on a daily basis?
1:01 What are those kind of of work hours?
1:03 There was a portion where before we went
1:06 to New Zealand to to prep and then shoot Badlands,
1:11 we were developing them at the same time and then going into production
1:18 on Killer of Killers while we were still writing the script for Badlands.
1:24 Secretly, there was there's a there's something cool about being able
1:28 to switch gear whenever something was
1:31 feel like you're hitting a wall creatively.
1:35 Yeah.
1:35 You then have like, all right, let me just think about this one then for now.
1:39 Um, and within Killer of Killers,
1:42 there were like three or ultimately four movies um that were like,
1:47 I can't crack the code on this in the Viking chapter.
1:50 Okay, let's let's talk to the Feetal Japan folks, you know?
1:53 Let's get in.
1:53 Let's what where's that?
1:55 Oh, wait.
1:56 Oh, that's cool.
1:56 We have some cool ideas there.
1:58 Okay.
1:58 Then you get stuck on that.
1:59 And it's like now we have a Badlands meeting that the deal, you know,
2:02 and it and it allows me to not let things fester and and obsess
2:07 or worry about certain things cuz you you're
2:10 you're just sort of being bombarded with stuff.
2:14 And I was using my instincts more than anything.
2:16 But it was a lot of a lot of really a lot of late nights.
2:19 Um because then you get to deadlines for for any of those things
2:23 and it's like okay now we this has to get thought through.
2:29 Yeah.
2:27 Then on when we went to New Zealand that was tricky cuz and everyone of course
2:34 is like each thing is the most important
2:36 thing to any individual or team on the project.
2:40 So, the Badlands people were upset that we'd have this chunk of we couldn't do
2:45 a meeting in the morning because we had
2:47 a whole crazy fire happening for Killer of Killers.
2:51 Um, and vice versa.
2:53 But there was a lot of us, you know, at like 6:00 or 7 a.m.
2:57 driving to set an hour away or something in New Zealand and we had uh
3:02 my producer got Starlink attached to the vehicle that we were in.
3:07 Probably we probably all have cancer now.
3:09 Um like we were like surrounded by these like servers in the truck.
3:14 Um so we could have our our meetings um with our laptops
3:20 and and look we used this program Sync Sketch to um look at concept
3:25 art or animation or whatever it was at the time and uh go
3:29 over all that stuff then get to set and start going at Badlands.
3:34 And there were frequently moments where I would have my my cans,
3:39 my my headset for Badlands with one ear open like this and then
3:45 an earbud connected to my producers's laptop for a Killer of Killers meeting.
3:50 Um, and would be like cut full Spielberg with it.
3:56 Yeah.
3:56 And then and then overhearing something
3:59 that was like someone was misinterpreted.
4:02 like whatever it was.
4:03 It's like, "Oh no, I got to then like
4:04 pop into that meeting and and uh deal with whatever
4:08 the Killer Killers thing was." And there's a picture
4:11 we posted to Instagram that had like my onset monitors.
4:15 There was a day where we were doing we had second unit, I think, too.
4:18 So, it was like two sets of monitors, main unit and second unit,
4:23 and then a and then a laptop open
4:26 for a Killer Killers finaling shots or something,
4:28 you It was like this crazy like everything was happening at one time.
4:33 That's insanity.
4:33 It got pretty gnarly.
4:35 But also,
4:36 like I said, when something was you're feeling down on some creative idea here,
4:41 there was always something else that was up, you know?
4:44 I think the blank page is always this really daunting thing.
4:48 And I say the blank page also
4:50 metaphorically in terms of like starting from zero,
4:55 accelerating off of zero was really hard.
4:58 But with this, everything's all the gears are cranking.
5:04 Nothing got rusty.
5:05 You know, each creative idea boosts the other.
5:09 Um, and sometimes there's a period like of ending a project
5:13 and starting a new where you kind of sometimes you're relearning some lessons.
5:16 You're like, "Oh, yeah.
5:17 Why am I making this mistake again?
5:18 I knew that." you know um and this didn't
5:21 allow this led like oh reminded me of all the
5:26 right choices when killer killers was like coming together
5:28 and really working then it allowed me to kind
5:31 of carry that momentum into Badland stuff so I don't
5:35 know that I would do it again but there's something
5:37 very specific about working in animation that allows a lot
5:42 to be virtual as much fun as it is
5:45 to be in person and and sometimes makes things
5:47 smoother when I was doing the pilot for the boys.
5:49 I also was doing this for this video game Warframe,
5:52 the kind of directing the opening cinematic.
5:55 Um, and that was all virtual.
5:56 Um, they were on Budapest.
5:58 So, that kind of like opened the door for us
6:01 to walk through with our process on on killers.
6:04 Did you find like ideas hopping from one thing to the other?
6:08 Like you have an idea here that's not quite sticking in Killer of Killers,
6:11 but hey, that would actually fit in bad lanes.
6:13 Yeah, there we had a design come in for the what
6:19 we call the Zamboni in Killer of Killers that was like a hover bike with a thing
6:24 on the front that pushed the bodies out of the arena.
6:27 I think when it first came in, it wasn't
6:29 in that much of the movie and I was like, "Oh man, this is so cool.
6:34 Uh, I wonder if there's a way for this to be
6:36 in Badlands." And then we were scouting for Badlands.
6:41 We scouted like Iceland, Australia, and New Zealand.
6:45 And every time we would scout, especially when we were in Iceland,
6:50 it' be like where the landscape is so breathtaking.
6:54 It'd always be like, wouldn't it be so cool to just see like a little
6:57 speck with some smoke in the horizon like it's a hover bike,
7:00 you know, like what?
7:02 Yeah.
7:02 Look how cool this is.
7:02 Wouldn't it be awesome if the you know,
7:04 and and and then that there there was no hover bike in in Badlands at all.
7:09 We call him the hoverhog until we had already filmed.
7:11 Um, and then we concocted some sequences.
7:17 I'm I'm lying.
7:17 There was the dad, but there was no deck
7:19 on a bike in the be for the opening of the movie.
7:21 But all that came in, too.
7:23 Like that was one of my favorite shots.
7:25 That opening shot looking through the cave and seeing that like
7:30 that opening that shot for a long time was
7:33 not pushing through a cave for that long time.
7:36 It was just the static on a planet and we heard voice what is the codeex.
7:41 We actually heard that as voice over and it was
7:44 hearing the wind and the it was mirroring very much
7:47 the prey opening that open on prey kind of opens
7:50 on this like docu style like oh here's the the land
7:54 and nature and we were doing the same thing
7:56 on an alien planet and then in one of the trailers
8:00 we wanted to start with letter boxing um and then
8:03 open up to make the movie feel really big.
8:06 Then it became, what if the movie did that?
8:09 And then it became, oh crap, wait,
8:12 what if we make that that cave that cave wall instead of just black bars?
8:18 Um, and then it could feel like the opening shot
8:20 of the searchers and which Bray had a thing similar to as well.
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10:11 Let's go back though like it the inception of it
10:14 all like starting even with Prey because this franchise
10:18 what you're doing with it I just love so much
10:20 because it's not a repackaging of what's been done before.
10:24 You're taking this very well-known franchise and then
10:26 you're using it to make these very unique films,
10:29 which you've said in other interviews, you know,
10:31 things that we haven't really seen before,
10:33 and people always say that, but it's true in this case,
10:36 the way that you're doing these things.
10:37 And and that's why Badlands was so fun and exciting
10:40 to me cuz I kept just leaning to my wife going, "That's I that's new.
10:44 Good for like that is for me.
10:46 That is the the golden egg right there is for me to go like,
10:49 haven't seen that, you know,
10:51 that's incredible." And to do that on such a large franchise,
10:54 like just I just got to know how how did this come to be?
10:58 Did did they come to you for a Predator film?
11:00 Did you go to them?
11:02 I I heard little uh bits about that, but I I would love to hear,
11:05 you know, the inception of it all.
11:07 I think part of what was in the recipe here um that made these movies
11:12 work was that it I wasn't thinking about how do I make Predator something again?
11:20 Um, yeah.
11:22 Or or or even what would I I like Predator.
11:24 What would I do?
11:25 And and and the studio wasn't saying, "Hey, we want to make bring Predator back.
11:29 How would you do it?" You know, I really came to it very organically.
11:33 And they already were making the Shane Black.
11:36 They were making they were rebooting Predator in a in a different way.
11:39 At the time that you came with this, at the time of of me coming up with Prey,
11:42 Prey came from me just thinking about a movie I want to see,
11:46 a movie I I I want to make and and really driven
11:49 towards the notion of making something
11:53 that would be primarily told through action.
11:55 Fury f what would Fury Road on foot feel like?
11:59 And so that put me in the headsp space of like a revenant or gravity,
12:03 a real survival tale, just someone unexpected up against the odds.
12:08 And that then brought me to someone proving themselves and sort
12:12 of a Comanche going off into the woods with something to prove.
12:15 And then I'd always been interested in sci-fi and period film coming together.
12:21 That just that just is a I think that's peanut butter and chocolate.
12:24 And we we rarely see um that combination.
12:28 And because I was in that headsp space, I think that got me to Predator,
12:33 which then we had the story with the character trying to prove
12:36 themsself and and here's this thing looking for the most worthy.
12:40 Suddenly that's that wasn't just a genre exercise.
12:44 It was like, oh, that that's meaningful.
12:47 um her story could become um really epic
12:50 and the Predator story becomes not just something
12:52 there for action but but but something that was
12:55 had more emotional and thematic weight to it.
12:58 So um that was like holy crap this is a cool movie and it's
13:03 and it's interesting before it's a Predator
13:05 movie it's already got conflict that I've
13:08 and has a protagonist that we never get to see like already was
13:11 a movie worth making and then the then
13:13 the Predator aspect became even more tantalizing.
13:16 Um, so I had emailed an Exact 20th and pitched the movie,
13:20 but but because they were making the Shane Black movie at the time, I said,
13:23 "Why don't we call it Prey?" um, to not step on Predator Dumb and they dug it,
13:30 but the Fox Disney merger happened and the movie went away for a few years.
13:34 So, the same thing happened every time.
13:37 It was then um after Prey was trying to think
13:42 about what else doesn't exist in the Predator franchise.
13:46 Sure.
13:47 But really for me is like what about s what about all of science,
13:51 you know, what about movies?
13:53 What what what do I want to make?
13:55 So I'm not just making a sequel.
13:56 I'm like making something that's also a cool movie.
14:00 And and a few ideas sprung to mind and two
14:03 of them were Killer of Killers and and Badlands.
14:06 one, you know, a lot of the movie that where
14:08 the Predator's protagonist or a cre take any franchise making
14:11 the creature the protagonist um was a really exciting endeavor
14:16 but uniquely exciting for the like notoriously ugly[ __] you know,
14:21 um being who you're like strapped to
14:24 and and the challenge of finding a way in emotionally without defanging it.
14:29 And then Killer of Killers was a just
14:32 telling more historical stories in in animation,
14:35 getting to express the violence in animated form,
14:38 but also the idea of watching an anthology
14:42 movie and then finding out it's not an anthology.
14:45 You're actually watching one story.
14:47 Um,
14:48 that all became super tantalizing and and I didn't know which would
14:52 happen first and they both happened at the same time as the universe decides.
14:58 um they're so unique.
15:01 I I just was there one an uphill battle
15:05 to these and two how much doubt did you face
15:10 through that say development process of these stories like were
15:13 there a lot of times you're like this is s
15:14 this sucks I suck this is a terrible idea
15:17 you know and and and if that did happen which
15:19 I'm assuming it did because it's creative process but you
15:22 know how how did you find yourself pushing through those
15:27 simultaneously there was excitement from the studio
15:33 uh in in ways that are very surprising.
15:36 But they immediately saw the merits of both ideas and were not
15:42 afraid of the things that would would have maybe many years ago deterred
15:46 a lot of movie studios and and recognized what it takes to get
15:50 people off the couch is something surprising and fresh and new and all that.
15:54 So on the one hand they embraced a bonkers idea in Badlands and Killer Killers,
16:01 you know, we had never done animation.
16:02 They never did animation.
16:03 We were going to work with a company third
16:05 floor that had never done a finished animated project before.
16:08 We just worked with them in previs.
16:10 So it was it was a lot of handholding, you know, um and and trust.
16:15 At the same time, there was a lot of doubt throughout the way.
16:18 There's a lot of doubt, you know, with Killer of Killers,
16:20 our desire to tell three stories and then unite them in one
16:25 and and have every character arc completely enough in their own story,
16:30 but then in the fourth story still have more like there was
16:33 a lot of temptation to like let's just make it fun, you know,
16:36 like it doesn't have to all come together like let's, you know,
16:39 and it would have been much easier um to do
16:42 that and way harder to narratively figure that stuff out.
16:47 um Badlands.
16:49 I was had an insane amount of confidence going into it.
16:54 I remember the same feeling in in life,
16:58 like even in just the idea of making movies where I
17:01 on the one hand had this feeling that I was like,
17:04 I'm I'm going to work really hard.
17:06 I'm going to figure it out.
17:07 I'm I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to be director one day,
17:10 you know, like I I'll just I'll figure I'll I'll work hard enough to do it.
17:16 And then you get older and I got married,
17:19 you know, and like like life, the older you get,
17:21 the more mortal you feel and you realize that it's
17:24 nothing set in stone and and and and anything can happen.
17:28 Um, and I realized, oh my gosh,
17:31 I could not do it's it's not it's not a lock, you know, like it cannot happen.
17:36 And that's what motivated me to make that portal short so many years
17:39 ago and really just like put it all on the on the line.
17:43 And I had the same feeling where I was so
17:46 confident in in the idea of for Badlands and it was
17:51 really hard to make and there was not a lot
17:53 of precedent for some of the ideas and choices we were making.
17:57 So there was nothing to lean on and say well that worked there so we're good.
18:01 Um and there were a lot of moments uh where I turn to my producer and say
18:07 what if we're making Howard the duck you know like it it it occurred to me.
18:12 It took a lot of effort to make Howard
18:14 the duck and those suits are like really cool.
18:17 Um, and they're really well realized and handcrafted by make, you know.
18:22 Um, and everyone was going, "This is a crazy movie.
18:25 May it may be awesome." You know, Star Wars was probably felt crazy to everyone.
18:28 This is this is crazy, too.
18:30 And then it turned out that movie, I mean, I actually like Howard the Duck.
18:33 Um, but I'm the world did not.
18:38 Um, you know, it was so crazy that it was crazy.
18:41 And people were like, "That's a ridiculous movie." And it was like we
18:44 could be making a ridiculous movie for so many reasons.
18:48 There were so many choices that any one of them um and there's
18:52 there's certainly people online that would say we did make a ridiculous movie,
18:55 but you know, it was really
18:58 scary and there's a funny feeling with a little bit of success
19:03 and and and with this with Prey working as well as it did.
19:08 I always had this feeling of I feel like
19:10 people are not certain about what we're doing here,
19:13 but they're trusting me because of prey and then I'm like,
19:17 but what if they should be correcting me right now?
19:21 You know, what if I they they're just like saying yes,
19:24 agreeing to something and they shouldn't be, you know,
19:26 and because actually what they're I might be wrong
19:30 about this one thing and we need to be,
19:31 you know, and so I really was petrified.
19:37 um that everyone was like you this is insane but okay we're you know we'll
19:42 trust you and and and they shouldn't be trusting me and the movie was hard
19:45 to figure out to get to the very core of of the of the thematics
19:51 of everything and yeah and they're tonally we
19:54 were walking a real tight rope between how how
19:56 how fun is the right amount of fun what what's too absurd um and especially
20:03 with elements from the Alien franchise that Predator
20:07 has involved a little bit of camp along
20:09 the way and whereas the Alien franchise has always been dead serious and we were
20:13 using some elements from that franchise in ways
20:15 that were pretty bold and and out there.
20:18 So, um all of it was really touch and go and scary and I had many many
20:24 a night sleepless you know and just feeling like
20:28 well this this could be it it for my career.
20:31 This is this is the end.
20:32 Um, and I will even say the first time that we test screened the movie,
20:39 as soon as it ended,
20:40 I went to the went to the bathroom and I'm standing at a urinal,
20:45 the door uh opens and two guys come in and one guy's like, "I loved Prey.
20:52 Why the[ __] would they make that movie next?" And the other guy was like,
20:56 "That was absolute dog shit." Um, and I'm like,
21:00 this is the first reaction to the movie,
21:02 ju just showing a general audience, you know,
21:05 and I'm just like this[ __] you know,
21:06 watching looking down the drain at my at everything, you know.
21:10 Um, and I just devastated, you know.
21:13 Uh, thankfully that was not the common reaction to the movie,
21:18 even at that screening that I just happened to be in a very unlucky position.
21:22 The universe humbling you for no reason.
21:24 But even still, there was still was a lot
21:26 there still plenty that wasn't working in that screening.
21:28 And so, oh my god, you know, I felt um it felt awful.
21:34 It felt absolutely awful.
21:35 I can't even imagine.
21:36 Yeah.
21:36 I mean, really, it's like your inner, you know,
21:40 the the devil on your shoulder telling telling you,
21:42 you know, almost exactly what you're afraid of.
21:46 Was that that I answer your question?
21:47 No, totally.
21:48 I in those in those times when when you are
21:52 feeling that immense doubt cuz this is no small thing.
21:54 This is Predator.
21:55 This is a massive film you know 100 plus
21:57 million dollars I believe the budget was you know how
22:01 how did you push through that?
22:02 Is it just pure courage to say no these ideas are good and I'm going
22:06 to stick to that like where are you
22:08 finding that balance of like should I shift gears?
22:10 How how are you holding tight?
22:12 cuz there are some wild ideas here that completely pay off and are
22:16 some of my favorite I which I told you already some my genuinely some
22:20 of my favorite stuff I've seen at a theater in I can't think of how
22:24 long everything feels so safe and and this did stuff that was so wild which
22:28 I don't want to spoil maybe we'll spoil a little bit later but so
22:31 wild especially with Elle's character Thea
22:34 and what happens toward the end and something
22:36 comes and how they find her I was like giggling with delight you know
22:40 not like giggling at it but giggling of like is he going to do this?
22:44 Oh, he's doing this, you know, and just loving that so much.
22:48 But in the theater watching it,
22:50 I immediately put myself in your place and was just like,
22:53 would I have had the balls to go through with this and this and this, you know,
22:57 and on such a massive scale.
23:00 So at those times when you are doubting yourself,
23:03 I don't even know if you ever even doubted that specific thing.
23:06 But those moments that you are doubting yourself,
23:08 is it someone that's being a pillar for you or is it you just saying,
23:12 "No, this this works.
23:13 I know it works." And and quieting that part of your brain.
23:16 It's a cycle because lucky that I have creative
23:19 collaborators that I'm very in sync with that we're
23:23 all attuned to the same frequency and remind
23:26 us of the noble endeavor and support those ideas.
23:29 But there were times where some of those folks were would doubt something
23:32 and I would need to lean on myself or um another figure, you know,
23:36 like like it all you go through all these cycles of uhoh, you know,
23:41 of people that you respect and trust, like suddenly being unsure about an idea.
23:45 That that's what it feels like to to be a director, frankly,
23:48 is it you do your best to clearly communicate what's in your head,
23:52 but there's no one with a supernatural ability.
23:54 And so you're always going to encounter someone who or or groups
23:58 or whatever that aren't seeing things just as you see them.
24:02 And the difference between something being good and bad comes
24:07 down to how it will be visually realized in the end.
24:11 And this this is a movie where we could not see how
24:14 things were going to be visually realized until the bitter end um
24:17 with with the amount of visual effects work and the main character
24:21 um being a visual effect itself and and the sidekick being a visual
24:25 like everything the same thing that doesn't work if we never changed
24:29 anything but just having eventually the face there and seeing Thea not
24:33 with blue legs dangling but like actually as they suddenly that that scene
24:38 comes alive and does work and how do we mess with it,
24:41 we may have ruined it or whatever.
24:43 So, you really have to take in feedback constantly,
24:47 but also listen um to your inner honed craft,
24:52 instincts, whatever to realize when is when is an when is a a thought,
24:58 a piece of feedback um essential and when is it when
25:02 do you feel like that this is going to be different?
25:04 when they when this looks the way that it was intended
25:06 to from an you know from from our imagination to to to the screen.
25:11 Yeah.
25:11 So having those collaborators to lean on was essential.
25:15 Um and knowing how fragile it all is.
25:21 You know the smallest change can make something that doesn't work work
25:26 and the smallest adjustment can take something
25:28 that works and and and break it apart.
25:31 It's it's it's it's incredibly daunting and intimidating,
25:34 but that always has to be kept in mind.
25:36 And that the pendulum has a tendency to swing.
25:40 Too much comedy.
25:41 Let's get rid of all the comedy.
25:42 You know, like you think about your experience of things,
25:45 there could be one any time.
25:47 Just speaking of comedy,
25:48 if there's a joke that does not work once in a movie, that experience,
25:55 it can happen at any point in the movie
25:56 and there can be a bunch of last whatever,
25:58 but that one you go, "Oh, this movie com this maybe too joke,
26:01 you know, like it doesn't you and it's one.
26:04 All it takes is one.
26:05 It's deciphering those kinds of notes."
26:08 That goes to like a lot of the decisions you're making in in pre-production,
26:12 too, which you mentioned something with, you know, Dex face.
26:16 Wait, did you have like the full mask
26:18 on the whole time and then you're just CGing
26:20 that or cuz I saw some BTS stuff where
26:23 that was open and you could see the actor's face.
26:25 Was that just rehearsal or did you do that for performance?
26:28 No, it was an open cowl the entire time.
26:30 We we had a stunt mask for for wide shots where we were
26:33 all hoping that we could get away with a few shots here and there.
26:36 I don't even think that ever came to be.
26:39 I think we always judged up something.
26:41 Um but but no, it was um committing to building a full prosthetic suit.
26:48 Just the face was open and to kept Demetrius's eyes.
26:52 Um he would wear contacts and everything else was uh visual effects.
26:57 Very very scary.
26:58 Very scary because what we love about
27:01 this franchise is the is the physical suit.
27:03 And I think part of what gave me ease when we saw some tests,
27:08 unlike some of the CG work in Prey
27:11 and in um the 2018 Predator um where that was okay,
27:16 the Predator CG, so it's flesh, but that's different than the suit.
27:20 This time the part that was visual effects was matching the texture of the suit.
27:26 Um, so instead of like improving the suit
27:28 to make it look like it's actual more real,
27:32 um, the way that that we can in visual effects, uh, no,
27:35 it was like sticking to it has the dreadlocks and all
27:37 that stuff still if you can feel they have a look to them
27:40 that feels like they are tubular physical pieces and there's a quality
27:46 to the texture of that suit that just feels like really well done,
27:51 but suit work not not it's not Gollum or apes or any of that stuff.
27:56 So, letting the face match that texture, I think really helped create,
28:02 you know, the magic trick of the movie.
28:05 Yeah, it definitely grounded it all for sure.
28:07 Did you Did you have like uh a piece of the mask on on set for like
28:12 just seeing it for maybe the light or just seeing it on camera just to be like,
28:16 "Okay, yeah, that looks cool.
28:17 Now take it off." You know what I mean?
28:18 That sort of thing.
28:19 No, not on him.
28:20 Just at the they would have on like a stick.
28:23 Um they'd have for lighting reference, you know,
28:26 and because every single shot was a visual effect.
28:30 Like there was no like, all right,
28:31 we got that and next thing every every shot of the movie was we have that.
28:36 Okay, balls and charts.
28:38 Um then they do a pass with that thing.
28:40 Okay, now we're going to do a clean pass
28:42 and they have to do the camera move all over again.
28:45 Like every single like every single shot had
28:49 like you really made like a liveaction animation hybrid.
28:52 Yeah, it was.
28:54 But in in a way that hopefully um it funny enough has its
28:59 own challenges because some like even thinking
29:02 of Avatar um there's a clever there
29:05 in that it's all visual effect you know um for the most part other than
29:09 some of those sequences with humans but um everything is made by the same thing.
29:16 I remember when we were doing the bear and prey
29:18 like it's harder to be immersed in reality and your eyes
29:22 are accepting a reality the entire time and then something
29:26 CG happens and suddenly it's it's a harder threshold to overcome.
29:31 You know, you you can smell it right away.
29:33 And I really wanted it to feel as much as possible
29:37 like we are in these locations that's real and we're just peppering
29:40 in visual effects along the way but didn't quite process the uncanny
29:43 valley aspect and like how it really slams you in the face.
29:47 Um because because that that work can stick out.
29:51 So um I think in a way I what I
29:55 thought was going to make things easier ended up being harder.
29:59 Um I thought oh we're shooting so much and then you have reality to match to.
30:03 Um but actually um it's just a higher
30:06 threshold um a higher standard um to an audience
30:10 which actually makes me wonder how much of Badlands was location burst stage.
30:15 I want to say like 90% on location.
30:19 Nice.
30:18 Like we we did most of the end infiltration on the on the way base at night.
30:24 Then we did some pickups on the stage and I was like why why do we
30:27 why were we you know doing night shoots like crazy and um we could just be here.
30:32 It's pretty much the same because night becomes
30:35 black and so what black is now blue for us and we still brought in our ground
30:39 and but actually I I would do that again.
30:43 Um I I'm realizing how much of a difference it makes a when
30:49 you do have something to when the visual effects artists have have more
30:52 reality to match to there's you you just you can I think you
30:56 can kind of feel artifice and having there's a magic trick that happens I
31:03 think when you don't know which is the real part you you're flopping
31:07 back and forth between them enough um that you don't you lose track internal
31:12 subconsciously ly of like when something felt added and when is something was
31:17 as I as I normally see it in photography or in my own life,
31:21 you know, um when there's too many different things in the frame,
31:24 I think it helps pull off everything.
31:26 So, as like the previous statement, as hard as that is,
31:30 I think to finish that thought worth it.
31:35 Yeah.
31:34 For me, the momentum of the film really sold so many things, too.
31:38 Like there's such a driving forward.
31:40 You mentioned um Mad Max,
31:42 which is funny because I thought that when leaving this film,
31:45 like there was such this driving forward
31:49 story through action momentum that never led up.
31:52 It just started and kept going and we're getting all
31:54 of our story and character through the forward momentum of the thing.
31:58 And I think the reason yours connects so well for me is, you know,
32:02 it really does the thing I love so much is
32:04 you're constantly putting us in the shoes of the character.
32:08 He doesn't just grab something.
32:09 We watch him calculate and see it and make a decision.
32:13 And that so immerses, you know, me, the viewer, into those moments.
32:17 It's it's a small moment,
32:18 but one of my favorites was when Deck gets flung into a vehicle and then
32:22 he looks up and sees the door and the next shot is him pulling it off.
32:25 And it's just that simple one moment of him looking and seeing the door.
32:28 And it's just constant.
32:30 It's so consistent.
32:31 You're constantly letting us, you know, do that evolution of the moments.
32:35 Nothing just happens.
32:37 it set up and then paid off in every tiny little way.
32:40 So, I'd love to talk a little bit about
32:42 that, especially because you're doing a lot of longer takes.
32:44 I mean, obviously some things are CG stitched and, you know, whatnot.
32:48 They're not necessarily wonders, per se,
32:51 but and and they're I wouldn't even call them winners.
32:53 They're they're spilly and long takes.
32:55 You know, they're these things that evolve and move
32:57 and you're getting all your setups through this one,
33:00 you know, now we're in our close and it's
33:02 and that's the stuff that man, it's delicious.
33:05 So, I I'd love to more than anything else, I would love to dive into that.
33:09 You know, even not to just geek out about your movie to you,
33:12 but the the crash sequence.
33:14 He wakes up on the floor.
33:15 We get that whole crash.
33:17 It's this perceived long take and then he ends
33:19 up back on the floor getting up again, you know,
33:22 and that that book ending of that it's just so
33:25 smart and and so I would love to, you know,
33:27 what how are you putting those together?
33:29 What do you how much is instinct and how much is very very calculated?
33:32 Um, and it is is it a lot in collaboration or are you
33:36 are you kind of you know how how are you mapping that out?
33:39 Well, I love I love you referring to it as this the Spielberg
33:42 and Long take um because that is the same terminology I use
33:46 and I really um I bristle at Warner because I think sometimes it
33:54 can feel like we're doing it to be look at us and and I
33:59 and really the impulse every time is like um no I think I
34:04 think the moment is best told without cuts or like like the one
34:09 that you bring up like you just think of it as sentence
34:12 structure or like how cool would it be to all in one breath,
34:16 you know, you to experience this moment with him of waking
34:19 up and and and you feel you feel like him
34:23 when so when it finally when he crashes and it
34:25 goes quiet and you're on the pl you're like you're like,
34:28 "Oh my god, I'm breathing again." And it
34:31 makes that moment that much more powerful.
34:34 or there's a longer take when you meet Tessa um on the on the prowl
34:41 um coming to that same crash location that starts on her finding
34:44 some predator blood and then wraps around and ends which to me
34:48 that's just like that's the right sentence structure for the for the moment
34:52 that freef fall sequence we had the idea to do it
34:56 but really procrastinated figuring it out um and we we kept on saying
35:02 okay we're going to take an office chair and put on on the stage
35:04 and we're going to take an iPhone and figure it out.
35:06 We had to put that on the schedule, you know,
35:08 and it just kept on getting moved and moved and moved and moved until
35:11 um we found ourselves uh shooting it the next day or that morning or whatever.
35:17 Okay, we really got to now figure it out.
35:20 And we had a little miniature of the of his seat.
35:23 And part of what was tricky and I had in my head
35:26 the like I always loved the moment in Die Hard 2 when
35:29 he's in the helicopter and all the grenades come and he
35:31 and he ejects himself and he comes towards camera and away from camera.
35:36 You really feel it in your stomach and I wanted to create that feeling again.
35:39 And a lot of it, by the way, comes from the amount of shots,
35:42 visual effect like, "Hey, we have too many shots for the sequence,
35:44 over budget, and what, you know, um and say, okay,
35:47 what if it's all one um which is a which you know,
35:51 um they're on to me with that, but because we're on against blue,
35:55 you can't feel the parallax of anything." So,
35:59 the whole like him going up and away
36:02 from us and then down and falling, whatever.
36:04 But we were horizontal on a stage and we could move the seat at a certain
36:09 and put the camera so it feels like
36:11 when we're behind him that'll feel like we're going
36:12 down even though we're pointed up and all of that was like really hard for all
36:17 of us any you know of us to to figure out and feel comfortable and confident in.
36:23 Are you using any overlays in those moments?
36:25 Like um I saw later uh you posted with the power loader which maybe we'll get
36:30 to that later but uh how it's you know it's you had that AR iPad with a Yeah,
36:35 that was we were just ahead of the we knew about that sequence and and Weda
36:39 was able to you know they have this powerful tool that allows us to do that.
36:43 So you didn't have any of that in when you're just on this blue.
36:46 It's just all it was really like you know
36:49 and suddenly with his with with Demetri's performance
36:52 and felt like when we're going around and he's screaming and it felt like oh
36:56 this this I get fans are going and it starts to come alive just enough
37:01 to feel like it's going to work in terms
37:03 of use is it the momentum of everything.
37:05 I also really try to prioritize keeping people in the movie
37:12 and at a certain stage of the post process focusing on scene
37:17 transitions and we had a lot of dips to black um
37:20 in the movie and those can kind of feel like resets you know.
37:25 Yeah.
37:25 commercial and kind of moments for you to be like,
37:29 "Oh, what else is going on?" You know, mentally or whatever,
37:31 you kind of get pulled out and tried as hard
37:33 as we could to keep people in the movie.
37:37 So see scenes just keep handing off to one
37:39 another thrust you from one thing to the and ironically
37:43 cut to this now that we just heard that or um and when we had dips to black we
37:48 sonically solved it by hearing flashbacky things or the thing
37:52 that gets us into that one is this awesome
37:55 very late in the game idea of having um
37:58 what you think is he's drifting back in slow motion.
38:01 and Deck is drifting back in so much after
38:03 seeing what happened to um his brother and we're hearing
38:08 what we think is a pulse in music that then
38:11 turns into the pulse of the alarm of him.
38:15 You know, it's a beautiful transition.
38:18 Um that's kicks off that that longer take.
38:22 Um and it keeps you in the in the in this in the emotionality
38:26 of one moment and brings you to the next without it being a hard reset.
38:30 So that eventually when the movie does finally stop,
38:34 um, which I would argue was the title,
38:36 there's this like, oh my gosh, that was all one big opening, wasn't it?
38:40 You know, like you realize that before then, um,
38:43 we we were just kind of going really really motoring.
38:47 Um, so I do try to take special attention
38:52 to to keep people and not overly getting overly logical about stuff.
38:56 It keeps you in the emotional spirit of everything.
38:58 And there's plenty of things in the movie that you could kind of pull a thread
39:03 on and go logically would that and you don't not even allowed to think that way.
39:07 Uh side note on a on a personal note,
39:09 the when the title came up, I saw it with Josh too.
39:12 Uh and the the my version of compliments to the chef is if I see
39:16 a movie with Josh is I lean forward and I just give him a look.
39:19 And then if he leans forward and give me a look,
39:21 we're both like, "Fuck yeah." Like that's what that means.
39:24 That just means like,
39:25 "Oh shit." That's how okay okay Dan you know there's just man
39:31 when that came on I was like you son of a[ __]
39:33 and even how he did the title with the 20th century below
39:36 it it felt like classic but now at the same time so sick
39:40 well that was in prey that was so funny and they happened the same
39:43 for both like that what there was no the script never said and then we cut
39:47 to title there or whatever um and I remembered in same thing in prey the title
39:53 reveal is is we see the spaceship in the sky but we we tilt built up.
39:57 Um, Space was kind of go up to the clouds and then
40:00 the t the music gets crazy and the title slams on.
40:03 And the same thing with 20th like old school
40:05 and I watch a lot of react videos um,
40:09 which is just this lovely joy that we get as filmmakers and people always
40:12 freak out on that title and I didn't I didn't think it was that cool.
40:16 I you know I thought I like that we
40:18 did it but I didn't realize how effective it was
40:21 and so with Badlands I was like oh man I
40:24 don't I don't have some cool idea for the title.
40:26 Um, and then as we were putting it together,
40:29 we get to that moment where he looks out at the planet
40:32 in front of him and I was like the clouds,
40:34 the sky, like we could put the title there,
40:36 you know, and then and it was like, oh my god,
40:38 it's so cool that it's so late in the movie and yeah,
40:40 that's how ballsy we're going to be,
40:41 you know, like so unapologetically cinematic.
40:45 It's it's just so great and like classic.
40:47 So, it just rips you back to that just like I was saying, that feeling of like,
40:52 you know, that I haven't had in so long of what it felt like as a teenager.
40:55 so stoked to see his movie and then it's
40:57 summer and and now here it is on the screen.
40:59 Uh that was just one more element that just it's
41:01 just another seasoning on there that's just a delicious one.
41:04 We were talking about the power loader and um one
41:08 the fact that you got to play in the Whan world.
41:11 It was just man that's the most jealous I've
41:13 ever felt of a friend's work in my life.
41:16 I was like damn it.
41:17 Uh, but just having the power loader in there was so
41:19 sick and and and then your BTS on having the AR there.
41:23 Like how much did you have because like you said,
41:25 every shot's a visual effects shot.
41:26 So, how much did you use elements like
41:29 that where you're able to see a little bit,
41:31 introduce a little bit um into the world while shooting to get
41:35 a sense of it or were you really flying blind with imagination?
41:39 That was I that was kind of the only thing that was the only
41:43 toy that we had just because of the the prep time and and because
41:48 we knew it was a weta sequence and and they are so
41:51 on the ball and and awesome um and they they have developed that tool.
41:57 So that was we were able to kind of put an iPad
42:00 up and really really helpful especially for um the camera operator.
42:05 What tends to happen having made a couple of these now like the operator
42:11 is always going to go for what's the most interesting inframe in that moment.
42:16 Um it's really hard.
42:18 They're so trained to not like leave the negative
42:21 space for the the thing that will be there later.
42:24 And we had the best operator in the world.
42:26 like arguably one of the this guy golly Mark Golene Neck who did the studio
42:32 um which was you know all wonders and and all and he did Fury Road
42:36 um before so so he really is
42:39 like an exceptional craftsman um uh physical specimen
42:45 and and also like one of the most attuned to the emotionality of the movie.
42:50 that guy was like felt every emotion that the actors were performing
42:54 and anyway but but but but yeah so really helpful to remind like
42:58 oh and like oh we're too clo we're on its foot right now
43:02 if we're there we have to be this further back and ey lines
43:05 and all that stuff really um really helpful but but unfortunately yeah there
43:12 wasn't too many other tools like that and it would have been would
43:15 have been cool to have like play take back and then see like
43:18 deck's face as as a because it it it does it changes everything.
43:22 Um, and we all got really tied to Demetrius
43:26 and connected to him in a very specific way and then you put that face on and uh
43:32 and it really changed um and for the better thankfully.
43:37 it like just the fact that we had that emotional performance
43:41 but with that kind of face um made everything so much more
43:46 surprising and and like oh my god I can't believe I'm watching
43:49 this from the with this kind of guy um and the jokes
43:54 the the the the few moments where there are jokes feels was
43:57 fun with Demetrius with the human face but another element when you're seeing
44:02 the predator saying you know my favorite part was when I killed
44:05 him and the blood was dripping down my looking at that crazy face.
44:10 Yeah.
44:09 Sticking with like sort of directoral choices, but you know,
44:12 aspect ratio is a choice uh and a story choice in my opinion.
44:17 Um and and I know you shot large format and you picked um specific lenses.
44:22 Could you talk about what was the decision process
44:24 of those uh particular things headed towards the visual you headed toward?
44:28 We we shot anamorphic.
44:29 So, we shot we shot 240 um which I just
44:34 is just the visual language that my imagination works in.
44:40 Uh and and also with my my DP Jeff cutter and we've Jeff found these lenses,
44:45 the Zelmus that were uh the bane of our visual effects departments.
44:51 Uh they're just messed up.
44:53 Um they're just so weird.
44:56 A lot of crazy soft spots.
44:59 Um, and and you know, chromatic aberrations out the wazoo.
45:04 And I what I love the most is a lens that breathes.
45:07 Um, so when you rack focus, you see like it's like someone's face like grows uh
45:13 and uh expands and and despands or whatever, you know.
45:16 So um it just remind me feel there's just certain movies
45:21 that hit me as a kid that had those that quality.
45:23 So it makes makes everything feel that much more cinematic to me.
45:26 Yeah, I agree.
45:26 I think sometimes when you're shooting visual effects,
45:28 the preference is to shoot with a really clean glass so that um
45:32 everything's sharp and and um you're able to to na nail stuff and uh
45:37 this felt like a a more unexpected visual approach to um this kind
45:42 of work and being in location and and it all being a little visually messy,
45:48 you know, um grounded everything, I think.
45:51 So that informed the lens choice.
45:53 I I I don't know that I ever could shoot something not in two for row.
45:58 In fact, I I've often brought up to my producing partner um
46:03 shooting in three like like can we make it can we go really
46:07 um really w extra wide cuz sometimes we'll see
46:10 things in full frame when we're doing visual effects
46:12 and like oh my god what you're so striking
46:15 but uh I keep on backing out maybe one day.
46:19 Is it when you make your western when you make your sci-fi western?
46:22 Exactly.
46:22 That's when you go three.
46:24 What about sticking with you know directorial choices?
46:26 Um and we talked a little bit
46:28 about a little already with your scene construction,
46:30 but um how how much was visually prep before time?
46:34 Like did you storyboard?
46:35 Did you do animatic?
46:36 I mean it is a very large VFX piece.
46:39 So I imagine there was a good deal of animatics or
46:42 Yeah, we were prevising even before we had a treatment for the movie.
46:48 We a started with concept art.
46:51 Um, and just on the the idea of the movie, we had Andre Wallen,
46:55 who's a concept artist that I had admired forever
46:58 and was like I couldn't believe I was like,
47:00 "Oh my god, is this movie big enough where we
47:02 could like ask if he'd want to, you know?" Um,
47:05 and so we he was just doing like Predator in this environment, right?
47:09 We didn't even know what the look of each planet would be.
47:12 And one of the first piece of Kaza
47:13 Darty did was the Predator in a snowy environment.
47:17 And he he drew these like ice spikes in a way that made me think of like,
47:23 oh, I thought I didn't know it was snow.
47:25 I I thought maybe that was like crazy white grass.
47:28 And that then became like, oh man, what if we do like razor gr, you know,
47:32 I thought that's what he drew and it was like, oh no, it was snow, you know.
47:34 And so then we prevised the entire what we call the razor grass sequence,
47:39 him hunting the bone bison and then the tree monster which
47:41 we call the Luna bug and that whole thing and meeting Bud,
47:44 the first interaction Bud because that in cat
47:47 that was it was not in the screenplay.
47:50 Um we just kind of wrote the scene to represent all the gears of the movie.
47:54 It had the fun of the back to back him and the uh the fun of seeing the predator
47:59 hunting other creatures and encountering another little thing that would
48:03 be competition and then have a rivalry with him.
48:06 And be, you know, it just had all the elements as as a as a as a signpost
48:11 not only to the studio but also for the writer um to see like,
48:16 oh, this is the tone and this is what you you know.
48:19 Um, so we prevised that.
48:21 Um, and then as we had concepts for sequences,
48:24 whether they were written or not, we just kept prevising.
48:28 Um, my dream was to was especially, you know,
48:31 the one of the pleasures of animation is that you previs the whole thing.
48:34 Um, and I really wish we could
48:36 just previs everything because it just locks people in to get what it is and not
48:42 not have way less wiggle room for misinterpreting um,
48:45 any any aspect of the movie.
48:47 So, we prevised a lot of sequences and there's
48:50 a lot there you'll there'll be a disc.
48:51 There'll be a there'll be a Blu-ray um that has
48:55 um a lot of previs for deleted scenes there.
48:58 The fight in the Callus Den used to be this outpost sequence
49:02 um that was where the initial leg fight used to be meeting Thea.
49:07 the way he met the uh um was a completely different well it's
49:12 like a dangerous hot lava style sequence that then turned into in the movie
49:16 it's the spike pods and then there's plenty that uh like like
49:23 the one that we talked about with the chair that we procrastinated
49:26 that we but Jeff and I would talk about all the time
49:28 but we never really like did the like what is each shot you know
49:32 as best I we can we we go through the script and try
49:36 to touch every scene and and and if we don't then we're storyboards too.
49:40 There's storyboards for the spike pods, but if we don't have um previs for it,
49:45 we'll try to kind of just shoot each other as reference for each
49:49 shot or have in our hearts like what is the shot of the scene?
49:54 The scene if the scene only had one shot to articulate it,
49:57 what would that shot be?
49:58 And start from there and then from that easily blossoms out
50:02 the other kind of coverage that one would need, you know.
50:05 Yeah.
50:05 sort of like a flag planted visually for the scene and then build from there.
50:09 Yeah, I love that.
50:09 I'm gonna steal that.
50:12 Yeah.
50:11 Did you shot list a lot or were you
50:14 on set just discovering a lot for the non-previsit scenes?
50:17 Obviously,
50:18 it would be Yeah, for whatever did not have any pre visualization component.
50:22 It would be more like my AD would come in and be like,
50:25 so what's like the first shot of the Actually, that's not always true.
50:28 Most we would show up on set and before the actors would come I
50:32 would talk through with Jeff and AD and team like this is what I think
50:36 it's going to be generally this um and then actors would come and we'd
50:40 block and talk through and there might be some changes to the plan or not.
50:44 inevitably there's there's something that I feel like I have
50:46 a handhold on that we can always start with and then
50:49 from there while we're filming it while we're setting up
50:52 and they're pushing the you know with with second team
50:54 or you know with the standins then you start to feel
50:57 like oh I know what I need to see after
50:59 this now we got to get a this and a that you
51:01 know and then we'll be good with the scene.
51:03 So it's like sometimes building it out is
51:05 just the process of getting started with something.
51:07 Yeah.
51:08 Yes indeed.
51:09 So what's next then?
51:10 Do you got you got another Predator movie in you?
51:13 Do you have something else, you know, uh,
51:15 planned that yet that you're going to try to dive
51:17 into next or are you just resting at the moment?
51:20 I'm resting at the moment, but all things are true.
51:21 There's definitely awesome more Predator stuff to make um,
51:27 that very much excite me.
51:29 Uh, and there's also other stories and and kinds of movies
51:32 that I love that I've been always always been wanting to make.
51:35 And the the the real pressure I feel, we're all going to the movies.
51:41 It's just a matter of which one are we deciding to see.
51:43 Every movie has to require, you know,
51:48 insist that people get up off the couch and go um
51:54 spend much more money now and see to see the movie.
51:57 Um, and so that affects the kind of movies that I want to make,
52:02 you know, that like that I decide to do, you know,
52:04 like each each thing has to you're not going
52:08 and you're going which one of these whatever is cool,
52:10 whatever whatever I hear is good, you know, no, no, no.
52:13 It has to like yank you up um and and into your car
52:19 and out to the theater um to see it.
52:22 So, um that's that's really informing um and h has informed
52:27 and continues to inform um the choices I'm I'm making towards,
52:31 you know, what I do next.
52:32 That's smart.
52:33 Well, you crushed it, man.
52:34 You had two incredible films in one year.
52:37 So, congratulations.
52:39 This one huge success across the board.
52:41 Box office critical fans, everybody is loving it.
52:45 So, congratulations.
52:46 And uh you know, thank you for taking the time to do this as well.
52:49 Thanks, man.
52:49 Always a pleasure.
52:50 Thank you.
52:51 Huge thanks to Dan for taking the time
52:53 to chat and for being so honest about his process.
52:55 And like I said at the start, his film rules.
52:57 So go see it now before it's off the big screen.
53:00 And as always, if you dug the episode, like, subscribe,
53:02 hit the bell to be notified when we put up new content.
53:05 And until next time, don't forget to write, shoot, edit, repeat.
53:18 All I see you later tall.