Are saunas and cold plunges actually good for you? - What in the World podcast, BBC World Service

0:00 Do either of these have a health benefit for the human body?

0:03 Well, when it comes to saunas,

0:04 there's actually a fair bit of evidence they might.

0:06 I was reading about some really important meetings

0:09 that take place in saunas, too, in Finland.

0:11 Yes, we did pioneer sauna diplomacy.

0:14 I'm about to get into what is called the mental plunge- two to three degrees,

0:19 and I'm not very good in cold temperatures.

0:23 Up to the shoulders.

0:25 Up to the shoulders?!

0:29 How long am I meant to stay in?

0:31 Two minutes.

0:31 I'm not staying for two minutes.

0:33 I mean, you signed up for this.

0:36 So people say this is meant to be good for you.

0:38 Apparently, it's meant to be good for your mental health.

0:40 Give you all kinds of clarity.

0:42 Out the ice and into the sauna.

0:45 This already feels so much better.

0:48 I can feel my muscles are just beginning to relax.

0:51 My toes are defrosting.

0:53 Saunas, cold plunges, ice baths, it seems like they're everywhere at the moment.

0:56 And today we're going to have a look at why that is,

0:58 and also what the science says about how good for you they actually are.

1:02 I'm Hannah, and this is What in the World from the BBC World Service,

1:06 brought to you from the sauna.

1:15 I am back in the studio now feeling a little bit warmer.

1:18 And here we have got Emilia Jansson, who is our resident Finn.

1:21 Hey.

1:21 Welcome back.

1:21 Hello.

1:22 It's good to be here.

1:23 How are you, Hannah?

1:24 That looked amazing.

1:25 It was pretty chilly.

1:26 I think I'm more of a warm blooded person than a cold blooded person.

1:29 I couldn't do more than ten seconds in the barrel of ice cold water.

1:32 I am proud of you for doing those ten seconds anyway.

1:35 Yeah, it felt really tingly and stabby,

1:37 like my body couldn't actually tell the difference

1:39 between hot and cold after a while.

1:41 It was a really interesting sensation.

1:42 And that's one of my favorite parts about going to a sauna, actually.

1:45 Obviously, because I am from Finland, I've been going since forever.

1:48 I can't even remember the first time I was in a sauna,

1:51 but that sticky feeling across your skin,

1:53 that's one of my favourite parts actually, of going to a sauna.

1:56 And tell me, why do Finns love sauna so much?

1:59 Finns have always loved saunas.

2:01 It's a huge part of our culture.

2:03 There are over three million saunas in the country, so people joke- well,

2:07 it's also true that there are more saunas than cars in Finland.

2:11 You know, you usually have a sauna in your house, or if you live in a flat,

2:14 you will have a communal sauna in the building that you can book.

2:17 So saunas are a very normal part of our daily lives.

2:20 You can have sauna nights with your friends where

2:22 you have some drinks and snacks with your family.

2:25 You know, Finnish grannies love to, in the winter,

2:27 make a hole in the ice and then they go and take a dip.

2:30 Yes, take a dip and then they go to the sauna.

2:33 This is a very well-known Finnish granny activity.

2:36 Your Finnish grannies must be very healthy.

2:39 I mean, not everyone is as extreme that they

2:41 go into an ice cold sea in the winter.

2:44 Sometimes it's just about stepping outside the sauna for a bit,

2:47 for example, just to get that feeling of the hot and cold.

2:50 So it's not necessarily about sauna and cold plunge,

2:53 it's just more about going to sauna and then

2:54 having the feeling on your body of the difference.

2:58 Contrast, right?

2:58 I was reading about some really important meetings

3:00 that take place in saunas too, in Finland.

3:03 Yes, we did pioneer sauna diplomacy.

3:06 The godfather of this was called Urho Kekkonen.

3:09 He was president of Finland for 26 years.

3:12 And what he would do is, when political leaders,

3:15 especially Soviet ones, would come to Finland,

3:17 he would then take them to sauna and it

3:19 would be this place for informal discussions and negotiations.

3:23 And the most infamous meeting was in 1960,

3:27 when Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev came to Finland,

3:30 and Urho Kekkonen and Nikita Khrushchev went to sauna,

3:35 didn't come back until five a.m.,

3:38 and afterwards it was announced that the Soviet Union were happy for Finland

3:42 to move more towards the West and to have closer ties with the West.

3:47 So that was something really important that came out of the sauna.

3:51 We wanted to find out what actually happens to the body

3:52 when it's put in these extreme hot and cold conditions.

3:56 So we reached out to James Gallagher,

3:58 who's our health and science correspondent.

4:00 So just a little confession from me.

4:02 I do love going to the sauna, when it comes to cold water therapy, not so much.

4:07 But do either of these have a health benefit for the human body?

4:10 Well, when it comes to saunas,

4:12 there's actually a fair bit of evidence that they might.

4:14 So people in Finland who have been going to saunas for decades,

4:18 they found that those going four to seven times a week

4:21 have a dramatically lower risk of things like heart disease and stroke.

4:26 So it seems as though going to the sauna is good for the heart.

4:29 Now, the reason for that is because when you're in that intense heat,

4:33 your body has to fight to keep its core body temperature the same.

4:36 So it opens up blood vessels all over the skin.

4:39 That's why you go bright pink and that is releasing heat.

4:42 But in order to do that, your heart has to work quite hard.

4:46 So it's like a mini shot of exercise.

4:49 Now, when it comes to cold water therapy, there's lots of ideas.

4:52 Things like improving immunity or mental health or again,

4:55 being good for the heart.

4:57 And the truth is, there's just not the same standard

4:59 and quality of research as there has been in saunas.

5:02 So there's still quite a lot of arguments around

5:04 whether it does have those health benefits or not.

5:06 It's still being debated.

5:07 Now, whichever one you go for.

5:09 There's a couple of things you do need to remember.

5:12 First of all is this is like exercise.

5:14 It's not exercise.

5:15 So if I just whip out my kettlebell, here we go.

5:19 This is great for strength training.

5:20 It's really working my muscles whenever I use it.

5:23 However, you don't get that same benefit as you would do if

5:26 you were going to a sauna or having a cold water splash.

5:28 It's like exercise.

5:29 It's not exercise.

5:30 I'm just going to pop this down.

5:32 There we go.

5:33 The other thing is that you need to think about your current health

5:36 before you jump in the sauna or in a cold water therapy session,

5:40 because they can be risky for some people because

5:43 they are putting a strain on the human body.

5:45 So if you are pregnant, if you have other medical conditions,

5:48 thinking of things like type two diabetes, or if you have heart problems,

5:51 there are more, if you have anything like that, you need

5:54 to have a conversation with your family doctor before you jump in.

5:58 Emilia, these cold plunges and saunas are getting really popular

6:01 in lots of different places outside of Scandinavia now, too.

6:04 I mean, I even saw that there was a sauna rave here in London.

6:08 Why do you think this has caught on?

6:10 And just how big of an industry is it?

6:12 In 2020, Unesco made the sauna an intangible cultural heritage of humanity,

6:17 so recognised it as an important part of Finnish culture.

6:21 But as you said, since then, it's really spread across the world.

6:25 So the business consulting firm Grand View Research estimates

6:29 that the sauna sector is worth around $950 million,

6:33 and that's expected to increase to $1500 million by 2033.

6:38 The biggest market is Europe, with the Nordic countries and Germany at the top.

6:42 But the UK is creeping up that list, and actually,

6:44 by 2033, it will be the largest market in Europe for saunas.

6:49 Maybe it's because we can't control the weather,

6:50 but you can control the temperature of the sauna and the cold plunge.

6:54 And we have been asking you guys why you

6:55 love going to the sauna and the cold plunge.

6:57 Hello, my name is Ray.

6:59 I'm from Singapore, but I'm currently in Lobuche

7:00 on my way to Everest Base Camp in Nepal.

7:02 Cold plunges and saunas and why do I do it?

7:04 My first ever cold plunge was in Solas Reformative in Singapore.

7:08 It was so painful and it took me so long, at least 30 minutes to get to the top.

7:12 But after I got to the top, I felt like I could conquer the world because

7:16 it took so much willpower and mental strength to make

7:20 myself willingly get into that cold plunge tub that I

7:22 felt like once I was inside, I felt so powerful.

7:25 And like, for example, right now it's negative seven degrees.

7:28 All I can think of is it's just a cold plunge.

7:30 I first started doing cold plunges and saunas when I

7:32 started ramping up my training towards my triathlons and hyrox [races],

7:35 and I was just looking for the quickest way to speed up my recovery.

7:38 In terms of the physical effects,

7:39 I do it because I do feel like it reduces the soreness the next day,

7:42 but I really do it more for the mental strength because if

7:45 I wasn't feeling awake before then I would definitely be awake after that.

7:48 It just helps me make sure I signpost my training

7:51 blocks with proper recovery and resets every single time.

7:53 Saunas have a lot of physical benefits,

7:56 recovery, nervous system regulation, all of that.

7:59 But honestly, the real reason people love them

8:01 right now is the social aspect of it.

8:04 So we're seeing this shift where people are drinking less,

8:06 but they still want connection, energy, and a place to hang out.

8:11 And that's where social saunas come in with high energy.

8:15 And it's giving you music, heat,

8:18 guided session and people going through something

8:22 intense together that actually creates a stronger connection.

8:25 We've had saunas and steam rooms, hot and cold for a long time.

8:28 The Romans used to to bathe and use steam rooms and things like that.

8:31 But I think what we're seeing now is the commercialisation of them

8:34 and how they're becoming like this- quite an exclusive experience, aren't they?

8:39 Yes.

8:40 It's been interesting to witness the consequences of the sauna

8:44 becoming more popular worldwide because as you say,

8:46 for example, here in the UK, if you want to build a sauna in your house,

8:50 or if you even want to go to a sauna,

8:52 that can be quite expensive compared to the Nordics,

8:54 where it's a lot more of a communal activity.

8:56 And so there are a few things that I find interesting that have kind

9:02 of popped up as a result that aren't

9:04 necessarily related to the original Finnish sauna culture.

9:07 In some aspects, it can be a bit of a status symbol because, you know,

9:12 you tell others, oh, I go to sauna because you have the money for it.

9:15 And some- And the time.

9:17 And the time.

9:18 And the luxury of time.

9:19 Exactly.

9:19 Whereas the sauna isn't supposed to be a status symbol,

9:23 it's supposed to be something everyone can enjoy.

9:26 And also, as you said, the commercialisation, it's become- in the UK, you know,

9:31 that the sauna is more of a business,

9:33 which means that the people who go there are more are consumers.

9:36 And so some places might tell you need to have this sauna hat.

9:39 You have to buy it, you have to buy this thing or that thing,

9:42 when in reality you just need yourself.

9:44 But that's quite interesting because in the Nordics,

9:47 there is no business consumer aspect that there is

9:50 in other countries where the sauna has spread to.

9:52 And so, for example, when I go to saunas here in London,

9:56 sometimes I will see these gym bros sat in the sauna,

9:59 you know, they've been there for a while.

10:01 You can literally see the sweat, you know, they're red in the face.

10:04 They're checking their watches.

10:06 They just look like they're in pain.

10:08 And the sauna is not meant to be a painful experience.

10:11 The sauna is meant to be something enjoyable.

10:13 And it's like they're competing to see how

10:16 long they can endure being in the sauna,

10:18 when in reality, the whole point of a sauna is the hot and cold.

10:21 So when I go to my summer house in Finland,

10:23 you know, we go to the sauna for a few minutes,

10:25 we go outside, we come back, we go in, and that happens many, many times.

10:29 Yeah, I mean, people see it as an endurance symbol,

10:32 that kind of competitive nature.

10:33 When I went to the cold plunge, there were these little pink timers,

10:36 these little hourglasses, and they went up to like two minutes.

10:39 And I can't believe that some people could

10:41 stay in two to three degrees for two minutes.

10:45 Well, you should meet these Finnish grannies, then.

10:48 They're harder than anything I'm ever going to be.

10:50 Saunas are really interesting because they're dry heat,

10:52 but hammam, steam room, they use wet heat.

10:54 That's obviously been around for for ages.

10:57 And also when you go to the Turkish baths, to the hammam,

11:00 they like, scrub you really hard and like, smack you around with some branches.

11:05 Do they do, like, skin treatments like that too?

11:09 Yes we do.

11:10 So we will have these leaves that we put together like branches,

11:14 and then you'll dip them into some water

11:16 and then you'll whip each other on the back.

11:19 And that is actually because it helps

11:21 with blood circulation and it's very healthy.

11:23 So it's for the health aspects.

11:24 And obviously saunas aren't suitable for everyone.

11:26 So please do enjoy them responsibly.

11:28 Thanks so much, Emilia.

11:30 Thank you for having me.

11:31 So we heard from some of you, but I want to hear from more of you.

11:34 What do you make of saunas and cold plunges?

11:36 Do you love them?

11:37 Do you hate them?

11:38 Let us know in the comments.

11:40 And I also want to read some of your comments

11:42 on an episode we did on getting rid of screens in schools.

11:46 So one of you said that I think it's a good idea to go back

11:49 to pens and paper in school without

11:51 the constant distraction of push notifications and messages.

11:54 Students can focus more on their teachers and learning.

11:57 Besides, most AI tools come with clear instructions and children

12:00 can learn how to use them quickly when needed.

12:03 We also got this from Jorge,

12:04 who said that I think the problem is not the use of digital books,

12:07 for example, it's the use of high dopamine spike apps.

12:11 People can't do slower tasks like before,

12:13 and I really do feel that like my patience has definitely decreased since

12:18 I've been on Instagram and TikTok and seeing all of this short form video.

12:23 And lots of you said that it's actually about striking a balance

12:26 and schools do still need to use devices for subjects like computer science.

12:31 It is always so interesting to hear your thoughts

12:33 on debates like this, so please do get in touch.

12:36 You can leave us a comment right here below.

12:38 You can send us a message on WhatsApp or on Instagram.

12:41 We're at @bbcwhatintheworld.

12:42 For now I'm Hannah, this is What in the world

12:46 from the BBC World Service and we'll see you next time.

12:50 The things I do for this programme, I don't even like the cold.