Unpacking Kirby Smart's comments on Big Ten vs. SEC + Future of CFP | Rushing the Field (FULL)

0:00 Hey everyone, welcome back to Rushing the Field,

0:03 college football podcast from NBC Sports.

0:05 He's Joshua Perry.

0:06 I'm Nicole Hourback and Joshua, have you ever been to the Kentucky Derby?

0:11 I have not.

0:11 I went to Keeland a couple weeks ago,

0:13 so I'm starting to get into the horses, but I'm not fully in it yet.

0:16 I feel like we should do it.

0:18 I feel like it's every year.

0:19 I mean, I love it really is like the most exciting two minutes of sports.

0:23 Like I always even when I know nothing about any of the horses, always watch.

0:26 We had a bunch of our friends were there.

0:28 John Fanta, Ahmed Freed, all our guys were there.

0:31 Um, but it's just it's so fun and I loved the reactions and like the first

0:35 time winners and um the female trainer Sheree like I I loved all of it.

0:40 I was like super into it.

0:42 Yeah, I was too.

0:43 I mean the race absolutely delivered too.

0:45 Like you get a you know underdog long shot uh that ends

0:48 up winning and like coming all the way from the back

0:51 like Yeah, like the the overhead shot

0:53 of like wiggling through all the other horses.

0:55 It's wild.

0:56 Wild.

0:56 It's insane.

0:57 It also inspired me.

0:58 I sent you a video.

0:59 I rode a horse this weekend [laughter] for the first time in my life.

1:03 How did that go?

1:05 It was It was awesome actually.

1:06 It's uh been a a bucket list item for me.

1:09 I think I'm not a big animal guy as you well know,

1:11 but I think horses are uh majestic creatures and so to like be

1:16 on the back of one and kind of trotting around was pretty cool.

1:19 So, you're like anti- like household pets but pro regal animals.

1:24 Yeah.

1:25 The horse doesn't live inside your house.

1:26 It doesn't take a dump on your floor.

1:28 It's perfect.

1:29 Uh, so the first time I ever rode a horse,

1:31 we like my Girl Scout troop went to this place

1:33 called Rocking Horse Ranch in upstate New York.

1:36 Didn't go well.

1:36 Like it nothing bad happened,

1:38 but like could not control or like get the horse to follow any instruction.

1:42 And that was kind of it for me.

1:43 I think that's funny.

1:44 We put uh we put my son James who uh turned two

1:47 in March on the on the horse and at first he was like,

1:50 "What is going on?" But then after a while

1:53 he did not want to get off, which was awesome.

1:55 Oh, I love that.

1:56 I love that.

1:57 He's going to be like um you know,

1:58 he's going to be playing like polo or something like that will be his sport.

2:01 I feel like he's he's too big to do a horseback sport, but it's fun to dream.

2:08 He's like the size of a jockey right now.

2:10 He is.

2:10 He is right now [laughter] at two at three.

2:13 Um awesome.

2:14 All right.

2:14 Well, so that has been like this is the portion

2:17 of the sports calendar where like other sports are happening.

2:20 not a ton going on in college football,

2:22 but we're also approaching talking season and this is where

2:25 people actually do make some really interesting observations about the sport.

2:29 Um, we get some of the financials.

2:31 We can kind of like piece together some trend lines

2:33 like we were been doing out of the NFL draft.

2:36 Um, so much of the conversation this off season

2:39 already is about the Big 10's place in college sports.

2:43 Three straight football national champions with three different teams.

2:48 You throw in the men's basketball, women's basketball championships,

2:52 it's obviously the dominance in this era is a massive storyline and you

2:58 can't hide it and you can't hide from it if you're in the SEC.

3:01 Kirby Smart, Georgia head coach, uh,

3:04 who's something of an elder statesman now in the sport,

3:06 he had some really interesting observations about how he sees the Big

3:11 10 and the SEC and and everyone's place in college football right now.

3:15 The college football landscape has really, really changed.

3:19 The Big 10 has won three straight championships.

3:22 I mean, that's just crazy.

3:23 The SEC dominated theory on that.

3:25 Let me hear it.

3:26 Why?

3:26 You really want my theory?

3:27 I want your theory.

3:28 Yeah, I want to hear it.

3:28 Because we just had more draft picks than them.

3:30 Not in the not in the first.

3:32 That was a flip in the first cuz they had more in the first than SEC did.

3:35 But why?

3:36 Why do you Okay.

3:37 So So here's my theory.

3:38 As a football coach, you're not going to like my theory.

3:39 I'll go ahead and tell you.

3:40 Okay.

3:40 I like all theories.

3:41 Um I I I think back in the day when he is so setting you up to cut you down.

3:46 I know what he's going to bring up the pay paying the players.

3:49 Well, everybody was paying players.

3:50 I'm not saying like only Alabama wasn't

3:52 only Georgia was everybody was paying players.

3:54 But I think there was almost a handshake agreement like

3:58 Alabama and Auburn to a certain extent

4:00 were going to let it go on because they knew each other were doing it.

4:01 But by god they weren't going to let Ohio State come down here

4:03 and get a player or Georgia and Florida they knew battling over South Georgia.

4:07 We're look we're both cheating a little bit but we're

4:09 not going to let Michigan come get a player.

4:10 Well, now it's free game.

4:12 Is there any validity to that?

4:13 Is that a bad theory?

4:14 I don't know.

4:14 I I I can't figure out what it is.

4:16 I I just think they have a more competitive uh conference.

4:20 Like the top of their conference, there's more good teams.

4:22 It used to be Ohio State was good.

4:24 Yeah.

4:24 You know, like Michigan was really good when Harold they had a great team.

4:27 Indiana's good.

4:28 Like now they got Oregon.

4:29 They got a draw.

4:30 They they they have an ability to attract good players coming.

4:33 Now NIL has a factor too for sure.

4:36 But but so does Miami.

4:37 I mean so does Florida.

4:38 I mean people have money.

4:39 more people have money.

4:40 So, I think that that the talent is spread out thin.

4:43 Where before in the SEC, it was a magnet to talent.

4:46 The disparity was so great that it was like you couldn't mess it up.

4:49 You'd win regardless.

4:50 And now it's like, okay, it's more even.

4:52 It's just been three in a row.

4:53 They did.

4:54 But it's crazy like when you were over here as a defensive coordinator,

4:57 you would not have taken the Indiana job under any circumstances.

5:00 No, probably not.

5:01 There is no way they would have pried you away from Tuscaloosa.

5:03 You were waiting for a better job than that.

5:05 I I agree with that.

5:05 And now it's a national championship program.

5:07 It just shows you how quickly things can change in this land.

5:09 That's true.

5:10 It can change quick, but that doesn't explain why the big No, I agree with you.

5:13 That doesn't explain why the Big 10's been able to do that.

5:15 And that's just, you know, I have so much respect for them.

5:17 I'm like, are they better coaches than us?

5:19 Are they and that's what all our coaches say.

5:20 They're like, I think Joel Clatt says that people have said that.

5:23 I don't think that's the case because I don't think they're taking

5:25 they're taking they're taking less talent in theory and doing more with it.

5:30 Now, the other theory is this one nobody likes to hear

5:32 is it's a lot of SEC coaches say this in my meetings.

5:34 They say they don't have the grind we do.

5:37 There's no way they play three of their nine games are hard.

5:41 Their bottom four games are not our bottom four games.

5:45 I'm going to play at Starkville and Vanderbilts

5:47 in my bottom four and I'm holding on to my butt.

5:50 Yeah.

5:50 To be able to play at noon on on Saturday at Starkville and playing

5:53 a good team who beat Arizona State who goes and plays these other teams.

5:56 So I there is a theory that we're beating each other

5:59 up and it's like the intensity and it wears you down.

6:02 Yeah.

6:03 So, there's a lot there.

6:05 I actually thought it was like a really interesting conversation.

6:07 That was Kirby Smart on the next round,

6:10 I think at a golf tournament in between giving

6:12 us some thoughts on the state of college football.

6:15 Uh, so Josh, where do you want to start on this on where he was?

6:18 Um, I mean, I think we we can talk about the way

6:21 that the talent has spread out and that's where I would draft where he started,

6:26 you know, like versus overall the depth of the conference.

6:29 Yeah, it's the thing that we said all season long and the thing

6:32 that came true is that at the the very top end,

6:34 the Big 10 had the better players overall and and those players were

6:39 concentrated among a few teams for sure and that played out on the field,

6:43 but we also knew that the SEC probably had the better depth of players.

6:47 Like, you know, you you look at the way the draft shook out

6:50 and I think this would explain the way that the conference is built, too.

6:54 Like Wisconsin, they they didn't have any

6:56 any players that went in the draft, right?

6:58 like that was also true about their team.

7:00 They weren't a good football team.

7:01 You look at SEC programs and they at least

7:04 all had a guy get drafted at some point.

7:08 So, um I think that is a factor.

7:11 Um I don't I don't know if you have any more there just on the the talent alone,

7:16 but the [clears throat] idea that the Big 10 is able to get

7:18 more guys that can change the game than they did in the past.

7:21 And I I'll say when I was playing, um,

7:23 Urban came in in 2012 and one of the things that he was

7:27 very loud about was how the Big 10 was not a recruiting conference.

7:30 It was too regional.

7:32 Uh, guys had these handshake agreements

7:33 where they wouldn't poach each other's recruits.

7:35 They were scared to go into certain places down south.

7:38 Some of the coaches wouldn't let them recruit the high

7:40 schools down south because they weren't familiar with them.

7:42 And we they couldn't get guys.

7:44 And he was very adamant about everybody in the conference recruiting better.

7:47 And now you see what happens when you can get some premier gamechanging guys.

7:51 You're able to compete for championships

7:53 in a legitimate way year in and year out.

7:55 Yeah.

7:55 And I think it's it's um but to your point about the regional versus national.

7:59 I mean you think of like Harbaugh coming in and the satellite camps like

8:03 you don't even really need to do that anymore because so much more is national.

8:07 Um and you have a conference in the Big

8:10 10 that now literally stretches coast to coast.

8:12 And again, like historically conference footprints have been more

8:17 where you're recruiting and where your players are coming from.

8:20 Um, so that that all has changed and obviously

8:22 money has changed a lot of that too.

8:24 But but you're totally right Joshua.

8:25 I mean if you think about there's a couple things

8:27 that we've been using to kind of measure the shift.

8:30 One is the draft and again the Big 10 won the first round of the draft.

8:33 So that's the high-end players.

8:35 Also the Heisman races.

8:36 Couple years ago, there were no SEC players in the top 10 in the Heisman race.

8:42 So, that is the high-end players.

8:44 Those are the best players in the country, the gamechanging players.

8:47 SEC programs have missed on quarterbacks or quarterbacks have underwhelmed.

8:51 That's been a problem for some of these top teams in recent years.

8:55 And, you know, it's interesting.

8:57 I was I was talking about this with Rody Jones

8:58 on SiriusXM earlier this week and he brought up how,

9:02 you know, again, kind of the urban era,

9:04 but maybe a little before, maybe a little after as well.

9:07 Some of the Big 10 teams were consistently very good,

9:10 but they did not have great quarterbacks.

9:11 So, it was kind of like a limiting factor for those teams.

9:14 Now, you're putting some really great quarterbacks in some of these teams,

9:17 and they're able to elevate.

9:19 I mean, and you're you're thinking like what does matter, the depth, right?

9:23 at the SEC.

9:23 Yes, the bottom, the middle and the bottom is stronger than the Big 10,

9:27 but the Big 10 at the top, I mean,

9:29 Indiana went from bottom of the conference to the top.

9:32 Like, they missed that second tier.

9:34 Um, and and the top tier added Oregon.

9:36 It should USC should be there, right?

9:39 Like the West Coast editions made the top stronger, too.

9:42 So, it's a really interesting like confluence of events

9:45 that create the very top being stronger in the Big 10.

9:49 Um, the idea of beating up on each other

9:53 is an interesting one because we it's it's it's

9:57 a there's a parallel here with Big 10 basketball

9:59 that always used to be the narrative that was so physical.

10:02 It was such a grind and then the Big

10:04 10 teams wouldn't do well in the NCAA tournament.

10:07 I do think that there is something to a stronger like if the depth is deeper,

10:14 you you cannot just overlook teams towards the bottom anyway.

10:19 Um, but we've always said this with the SEC, a lot of people are strategic.

10:24 They're putting a non-conference game in November

10:28 to help rest to help get healthier.

10:31 And this wasn't a problem really before when

10:34 the teams were stockpiling talent and the actual teams

10:38 like Nick Savven's teams or Kirby Smart's teams had

10:41 twos that were better than pretty much everyone else's.

10:44 It didn't matter as much.

10:45 So, you don't have as much depth.

10:47 You also have to play more games to get through the playoff.

10:50 So, I think those two things are are happening here.

10:53 But, I don't know how much you can put it

10:55 on the regular season because that didn't used to be a problem.

10:58 And you have to be good in the regular season and the postseason.

11:02 Now, also in the regular season, you could lose a couple games and you're okay

11:06 and then you just got to be good at the end.

11:07 So, like I see what he is saying

11:10 and certainly in an era where depth is harder to come by.

11:13 I get it.

11:14 But I don't think that can be all that that is leading to this outcome.

11:19 Yeah.

11:19 I mean, we're we're we shouldn't sit here and act

11:22 like Arkansas and Kentucky and South Carolina don't exist.

11:26 Like, oh, are those tough outs?

11:28 Like, yeah, I guess you can say that.

11:30 Like, certainly there are talented players.

11:31 Like, those are games that should be no

11:33 doubters if you're a top team in the SEC.

11:35 Like, Arkansas was was not it to me was not a team that you should be scared of.

11:40 Like, they literally they had good offense.

11:43 like they they literally couldn't stop anybody.

11:45 Like I watched Notre Dame go in there and absolutely embarrass them, right?

11:48 So like to me, we we have to stop acting like there aren't some

11:52 bottom tier teams that should be easy outs in the SEC is number one.

11:56 Number two is the point that you brought up wasn't a problem in the past.

12:00 Like it's supposed to it was always a meat grinder,

12:02 but you know the SEC was winning titles in the past.

12:05 Like that that part has not changed, right?

12:08 So like I can't necessarily see that as an excuse of like oh well you

12:12 know the conference is deep so it's just it's really tough to go the distance.

12:15 I get there more games at the end of the year now.

12:18 But this idea has not changed about what you had to do all

12:21 year long to come out of the SEC and to eventually win a title.

12:25 I think the other thing that they glossed over glossed over that you

12:29 and I specifically have spoken about I

12:32 think the Big 10 flatout has better coaches.

12:34 And I'm not talking about head coaches, right?

12:36 like they've got really really good head coaches down there in the SEC.

12:41 I'm talking top bottom staffs.

12:44 I'm talking guys who are in position rooms and guys

12:47 who were on the field teaching the position coaches, the coordinators.

12:51 The Big 10 to me has always had the better guys when it came to that.

12:55 And part of the reason why was because it was always

12:57 more of a developmental conference when you weren't recruiting the best

13:01 of the best every year in order to be what

13:03 Iowa was and what Wisconsin was and what Michigan State was,

13:06 which was a team that was winning Rose

13:09 Bowls and made it to the College Football Playoff.

13:11 They had to really develop the guys that they brought into the program.

13:14 Whereas Yeah.

13:17 the SEC was bringing in five stars that were, you know, three and out players.

13:21 And you don't have to be as good of a coach when you're doing that.

13:23 you have to be a great recruiter.

13:25 And now with the deemphasis of high school recruiting and more of it

13:29 shifting to the portal and now you we were past the era,

13:33 but you had the era of guys who could be in a program

13:36 for four and five and six years

13:38 sometimes and your development matters at that point.

13:41 the Big 10 always had that edge to me and I

13:43 do think that is a big factor in why things have flipped

13:46 and and I think like even the head coaches getting better like you

13:51 had to ele you had to make really good big hires at that position.

13:56 I mean Urban was was part of this right so you

13:58 talk about his impact on like getting everyone to recruit more aggressively.

14:02 um you know Jim Harbaugh like you're getting some of these are

14:06 like the best coaches that have ever coached football in the modern era

14:09 coming to the Big 10 and elevating and you know Kurt Signetti

14:14 we've have had this argument we probably have it this off seasonason is

14:17 he the best coach in the game right now I don't think there's

14:20 anyone else who could have done what he just did in the speed

14:22 at which he did it talk about how he is as a teacher

14:25 the preparation the way that those teams are structured the way

14:28 that they play um all of that is stuff that we would not

14:31 have seen seen in the past because you wouldn't have had the portal.

14:35 You wouldn't have had been able to flip a team like that.

14:38 Um, and when you talk about there was there's that part in that clip

14:41 with Kirby Smart where like what job would

14:44 you have left Alabama for as a coordinator?

14:46 First of all, people did not leave good jobs for Indiana.

14:50 That's why they had to go all the way down

14:52 and bring up a group of five head coach who

14:55 had just come to FBS like had gone from FCS

14:58 to FBS and then comes up to the Big 10.

15:02 But so even three years ago that was not the case.

15:05 Like people did not want to come to an Indiana.

15:08 Now you have this idea or like people think there's a blueprint that they

15:12 can copy and so they're more going to be more willing to do it.

15:15 But all of that was still really new to the sport.

15:19 And when you look at all of these things happening

15:21 at the same time and the fact that not just the Big 10,

15:24 three different teams winning,

15:26 but the SEC not even being in the championship game for those three years.

15:31 I think that's why like the red flags are going up in that conference.

15:34 And like you said, Kirby, the coach is wondering, are we not as good coaches?

15:37 Like what's going on?

15:38 There's been so much anxiety around Revshare and NIL

15:41 and the money because these Big 10 fan bases are huge, huge alumni bases.

15:47 Right.

15:47 You have the billionaires.

15:48 We've talked about the difference between like car dealership owner versus like

15:54 auto maker.

15:55 Yeah.

15:55 Automaker, right?

15:56 Like it's it's very different.

15:58 And so all of that's happening at the same time in a world where yes,

16:02 you don't just like roll out the five stars and you know can't stockpile

16:06 guys the way that Sabin and Kirby did in the first few years of Georgia.

16:10 No doubt.

16:10 So that's what's happening.

16:12 But it's really interesting because I'm not sure how you close the gap if you're

16:15 the SEC except like you need to get

16:18 again you need to hit at the quarterback position.

16:20 I think um and you need to survive the grind.

16:23 They're going to nine conference games this year.

16:25 So we're going to hear even more complaints about

16:26 this because half the league is picking up an extra loss.

16:29 We're still only a couple years into Oklahoma

16:32 and Texas making things harder as well.

16:34 Um but like you got to be able to survive that that four game

16:38 three four game stretch at the end of the year which is also different.

16:41 I think that's where like these are the teams

16:43 that truly are the best over the course of the year.

16:46 Even though Ohio State when, you know, we made such a big deal about,

16:49 you know, they were the eight seed and they lost to Michigan,

16:52 they lost these games they shouldn't have,

16:54 but by the end they were the best and they

16:56 could they could weather that that grind at the end.

16:59 That's what's going to take.

17:00 But I really think it's like it's it's goes

17:02 back to what we said right out of the gate.

17:04 You have to have the best players,

17:05 the key positions in order for those teams to ultimately win.

17:08 So, like I don't I don't think there's like one easy fix

17:12 for the SEC to like get back and win a national title.

17:15 No, I mean I think there's there's an evaluation on all of it.

17:18 Um, and there's probably some guys right now

17:21 trying to figure out like do we staff properly?

17:24 And I think that's a question everybody has and a lot of it has been like,

17:27 well, how do we structure our front office and how do we,

17:30 you know, we we have more allowable coaches on field

17:33 so what are we going to do with those guys?

17:34 But like from the standpoint of well what what qualities are you

17:38 looking at in your coaches when you're getting ready to hire them?

17:40 Like to me I think recruiting high schoolers might be

17:42 more of a secondary skill than it was in the past.

17:44 There's probably that evaluation of it.

17:46 How do you how do you entice that top tier talent

17:49 that you were just able to get back in the day?

17:51 Like how do you how do you get those guys to come back

17:54 and be back and you can win the first round of the draft again?

17:58 Um, I think all the the factors have to kind of come

18:01 together and once again everybody's figuring this thing out on the fly

18:05 to like how do you manage a postseason and you mentioned Ohio

18:09 State thought they did it really well the year that they won it.

18:12 Um, didn't feel like it was as tight this past year for them.

18:16 Like that's a learning experience they're going through.

18:18 Kurt Signetti kind of had the stairsteps where they made it.

18:22 They probably weren't ready to win a title uh you know

18:25 the the first year they made it to the college football playoff,

18:28 but learned from that experience,

18:30 structured their postseason really well where they were fresh and able

18:33 to compete and really throttle teams when they needed to.

18:36 Everybody's figuring that part out as well.

18:39 Um and you know, it's an adaptation, right?

18:41 Like Kirby's probably sitting in the room

18:44 by himself at times and he's like, "Okay,

18:46 like what is my practice plan when we're we're in the we're

18:50 in the second round of the college football playoff and we had that layoff.

18:53 Like what is my practice plan to make sure guys are fresh and ready to go?"

18:56 And it doesn't help that they're possibly

18:58 changing and tweaking it every year, right?

19:00 Like this year we're going to have the same format as last year,

19:03 but it is going to go even later into January.

19:05 Um, and then you know if you go to 16 or 24 like it it totally

19:10 changes the back end of the the calendar

19:12 so that becomes even harder to do as well.

19:14 You talk about getting rid of championship games.

19:17 All of those things affect what you're trying to do to make

19:20 sure that you're peing at the right moments in December and January

19:24 and they're always changing.

19:25 So, it's it's such an interesting conversation

19:29 even outside of the money piece of it,

19:31 which obviously like I think a lot of SEC people are like,

19:33 "It's just the money." Again,

19:35 I I still that doesn't explain getting Fernando Mendoza from Cal.

19:39 He was not the big marquee quarterback available last off season.

19:44 You heard me say it a million times.

19:45 I think it's a sneaky good pickup for Indiana.

19:47 Okay.

19:47 Did not think he was going to win the Heisman.

19:49 Did not think they were going to he was

19:50 going to be the number one pick in the draft.

19:52 But there there you have to still be good at some things like talent ID

19:59 and have money to get the players.

20:00 But it still doesn't have to be

20:02 the absolute high-end guys like the the headliner guys.

20:06 Um which again like you we're seeing we're going to see what

20:08 happens with Texas Tech when you know they got the headliner guy,

20:11 they got Brendan Sorsby and now they they probably don't have him.

20:14 Um what does that mean for them?

20:16 I want to underscore on the money point though, Joshua.

20:19 We actually got some financials last week from the Big 10.

20:23 They put out their media uh

20:24 their their revenue distributions from their media deal.

20:27 So, first year of the full new deal, also first year with 18 teams.

20:32 Now, Oregon and Washington are getting reduced shares.

20:35 That was part of the deal.

20:36 They just really wanted to get into the Big 10, so they took reduced shares.

20:40 Um, so here are the financials.

20:42 So in total it was $1.37 billion distributed

20:46 from the Big 10 for the fiscal year 2024 2025.

20:50 That was up from $883 million.

20:53 So that's a 55% increase.

20:56 Um let's see.

20:57 They got some revenue gained from Ohio State going through the CFP

21:01 that year as well because they were winning they're getting money per round.

21:05 Ohio State received $91.57 million that year.

21:12 Gez, that's a crazy number.

21:13 Penn State, which made the semi-finals 88.9 million.

21:18 Most of the other schools were between 76 and 79 million.

21:22 Oregon, Washington, partial shares till 2030,

21:25 so they were in the 46 to 48 range.

21:28 Here's the comparison, though.

21:30 So again, think about Ohio State, $91 million one year revenue.

21:36 SEC in the same year including bull revenue averaged

21:43 $72 million for schools who are getting their full shares.

21:47 That's a pretty significant difference.

21:50 And I know that that's not everyone in the Big 10,

21:52 but that gap is going to exist and it's going to build year-over-year.

21:56 So, when we talk about the Big 10 and the SEC

21:58 and the separation between the Big Two and everybody else,

22:02 there's also going to be a gap between the Big 10 schools and the SEC schools.

22:06 And that's where like the middle and the lower

22:08 tier schools should really see a difference.

22:11 And we'll see if that happens.

22:12 But like that's going to create some angst as well in SEC country.

22:16 It will.

22:16 It will.

22:17 But the the thing I think that is a differentiator between the SEC

22:22 and the Big 10 is Ohio State takes in that almost $92 million.

22:28 They've got 36 sports, right?

22:30 Penn State, I think,

22:31 has 31 sports where a lot of the schools in the SEC are floating anywhere,

22:36 you know, 16, 19, 21, right?

22:40 So, they've got less mouths to feed in their athletic department

22:45 as a whole than a lot of the Big 10 schools who,

22:47 you know, much like the uh the RIP to the old Pack 12,

22:51 like really had a rich history of some of these Olympic

22:55 sports and like maybe some of the the lesserk

22:58 known sports like it's it was a it's a big

23:00 deal for the athletic department to sponsor those sports.

23:02 So, um I think that's where maybe some of the money gets lost in the wash.

23:07 Like Ohio State's always going to figure these things out, right?

23:10 Like they they've got a bunch of different channels that they can tap into.

23:13 It's been a priority for them.

23:15 But, you know, if you're a uh Minnesota, for example,

23:19 and you're trying to take that next step into like being a solid

23:22 tier 2 team in the Big 10 year in and year out,

23:26 whereas you've got like an SEC school that has, you know,

23:29 seven less sports that they sponsor,

23:32 that's eating into this gap that you've created with your revenue.

23:36 So, I'm curious just in the the overall landscape of collegiate sports,

23:41 like how willing are people going to continue to be to let that that gap

23:47 in revenue be eaten up by sports that don't return on the investment?

23:52 We already have some answers, right?

23:53 So, Arkansas a couple weeks ago gets

23:56 rid of its men's and women's tennis programs.

23:58 To your point, like they don't even sponsor that many sports in the SEC.

24:02 a lot of these like the average number

24:03 of sports is much closer to the minimum required.

24:06 Yes, it is.

24:07 By division one than it is what you're talking about at the Ohio States,

24:11 the Michigan's um you know when you're you have so many Olympic sports.

24:15 So the this actually a really interesting question.

24:17 I I'm curious your read on this because you played football.

24:20 You played football during an era where obviously like so much

24:23 money is going towards it like it's going to the coaches,

24:26 it's going to the facilities.

24:28 Players could not get paid yet.

24:29 But it was still obvious like football

24:31 is driving decisions like that was already happening.

24:34 Everyone was trying to keep up with the Joneses.

24:36 So how should people think about this?

24:39 Like I covered four five Olympics now.

24:42 Is that right?

24:43 Five Olympics.

24:44 Four Olympics.

24:45 So I like am very partial to these Olympic sports.

24:47 I think like this stuff really pay first of all I just think it's like healthy.

24:51 I think you should be these are scholarships that like

24:54 change people's lives to allow them to go to college.

24:56 Um, I think it's healthy to have all of these other sports

25:00 and then like legitimately this is our feeder system for the Olympics.

25:04 Like this is how you win medals

25:06 in track and field and swimming and these sports.

25:09 Um, so I think that that is absolutely going to be affected

25:12 regardless of like me making a passionate plea for it or not.

25:16 Like maybe we don't see it in LA,

25:17 but you see it down the road in some of these Olympics.

25:20 So I'm like concerned.

25:22 I'm getting like very annoyed at people cutting

25:24 tennis programs and saying they don't make money.

25:27 We're not doing it because that isn't the only

25:30 thing that should be measured in my mind.

25:33 And I even saw like one of the Twitter lawyers making the point that

25:38 um well, let's just find new revenue streams for those sports.

25:41 Unless you're like endowing the positions

25:44 and and the sport, if you have new revenue streams,

25:47 that money is just going to go to football 100%.

25:49 Like what do you think's going to happen?

25:50 You're not going to be like, "Oh, here.

25:51 Look, we found a pot of gold.

25:52 Therefore, let's be generous about it." If you're not doing it right now,

25:56 if tennis costs $2.5 million total, including scholarships,

26:00 that's like a line item for football.

26:02 So, if you're deciding you don't want to spend that on tennis,

26:05 you're deciding you don't want to spend money on tennis.

26:07 No doubt.

26:08 No doubt.

26:08 It's um I I really struggle with it.

26:11 There's a a pride aspect of like I

26:15 I just think that athletic departments should do it.

26:18 Um there's there's a part of this too where you mentioned like developing

26:25 Olympians which is I think really important

26:28 if we're going to have national pride

26:30 in our Olympic teams like they're going to have to have some places to build

26:33 skill and to train but also like

26:36 we're we're talking about opportunities for young people

26:38 and we're in this world right now where everything's about the almighty dollar

26:42 and I think that and I've said this before on this show but some things

26:46 need to be separated away from capitalism

26:49 and one of them should be this enterprise

26:51 of not not just like higher education

26:53 generally but like collegiate athletics as well.

26:56 the the money and the mission I don't think always go together.

26:59 And so that's how you get to this point.

27:01 But when I was at Ohio State, some of my best friends played field hockey,

27:04 lacrosse, uh synchronized swimming, which was a championship team,

27:08 rowing, which was a championship team.

27:11 Like I go down the list.

27:12 Like I wasn't one of those guys who was just hanging out with, you know,

27:15 all the football players all the time.

27:16 Like it was a big athletic department.

27:18 We had over a thousand student athletes.

27:20 I thought it was a great opportunity to meet

27:22 people that we could cross paths later in life,

27:24 which I did a couple weekends ago with a a rower

27:26 who's now a Pelaton instructor who's killing it, right?

27:29 Phenomenal.

27:30 These are real life stories of like the opportunity people had

27:34 to come into school for a sport that nobody cares about,

27:37 and I put that in air quotes as I say it, to like set themselves up for life.

27:41 Um, I hate the idea where it's like we got to cut,

27:45 we got to cut because we want football and basketball to be really good.

27:48 like there's there's more to it in terms of what that does for young

27:53 people in that particular aspect of their life than just dollars and cents.

27:59 And I really hate that conversation being a thing.

28:02 One thing that's also weird to me is like looking at it like your sport needs

28:07 to cover the expenses for your sport when

28:10 again if you're starting college sports in 2026,

28:13 you don't set it up the way that it's set up where like football

28:16 and men's basketball and some women's basketball

28:18 are like kind of paying for everything else.

28:20 But that's how it's been.

28:22 There are other places you could totally

28:24 reimagine or restructure if you really wanted to.

28:26 Don't pay the buyouts.

28:28 Don't structure the contracts this way where

28:30 you have to pay buyouts to these coaches.

28:33 Are coaches really worth $14 million per year?

28:36 Or is that just because for a long time you could

28:38 only pay coaches and put money towards facilities to recruit talent?

28:42 So therefore, the coaches salaries kept getting bigger

28:44 and bigger and bigger and now you can't go backwards.

28:46 There are other ways to do these things, but like I don't know.

28:49 I mean, we never used to think about these things as like,

28:52 oh, well, did they break even on what it costs to sponsor gymnastics, right?

28:57 Um, which again, I get it.

28:58 Money is more important than ever.

28:59 We're also people are also bringing in more money than ever before.

29:02 No doubt.

29:03 And there is supposed to be

29:05 nonprofit missions, academic focused missions, like sports,

29:09 bringing people in, like having people apply

29:12 to their school because they've been introduced through sports.

29:15 There used to be other benefits.

29:17 Yes.

29:17 and other other goals and now it's like well did you cover your own exp like you

29:22 even see this with women's basketball which is obviously like

29:25 South Carolina women's basketball oh yeah it's expensive to well

29:27 yeah you win national championships you got to spend

29:30 right it's it's a it's it's just I feel

29:33 like it's a really tough place because we've I think

29:36 we've lost the plot on what we're actually supposed

29:39 to be doing with collegiate athletics and that's not just like

29:44 which is that just going to keep happening unless it

29:46 is until it spins off like football spins off or whatever.

29:49 Yeah, 100% it is which I think is it's unfortunate if we're going to start

29:54 leaving people behind as a result of it.

29:56 And I've watched um you know like max

29:59 schools for example which like money is real tough.

30:02 I've watched them over years just cut and cut and cut.

30:06 And once again, like these are athletes who

30:10 some of them like might not have even decided

30:13 that college was for them without the idea of them

30:17 like the sport introducing them to higher education, right?

30:21 Like I can pursue this thing that I love

30:23 to play while also enrolling in school and getting an education.

30:26 Like I don't know, man.

30:28 I It's It's a weird spot.

30:30 Yeah, it is.

30:31 This stuff is like we're purists.

30:32 Like we believe in like all of those benefits

30:35 and I think that a lot of the athletic

30:37 directors who are lifers in college sports are

30:40 being pushed out in a lot of places.

30:42 Like that's been one of the offseason storylines.

30:44 A number of ads um I'm going to say like specifically in the ACC getting nudged

30:49 out and people want to bring in like

30:50 people with business backgrounds and do different things.

30:53 You kind of lose the people who genuinely care about that stuff or the people

30:56 who go to like a tennis match on campus on a Wednesday afternoon.

31:01 I used to see Jean Smith when I would go watch synchronized swimming.

31:05 He and his wife would be up there watching.

31:07 Yeah.

31:07 Because he was a lifer.

31:08 Like he fully believed in the in the mission of

31:10 And he was a student athlete, too, by the way.

31:14 Right.

31:13 Right.

31:13 Like like he came up through it.

31:16 Like this wasn't some business dude who was like,

31:18 "Oh, this is an opportunity for me.

31:20 Let's get in." Like he was an athlete and then he was an administrator.

31:24 Like it's what he did.

31:25 He coached the game.

31:26 Like he was a part of every part of it.

31:27 You know what you think?

31:28 You know what I think is going to happen more so than

31:30 just these announcements like we saw from Arkansas where they're cutting sports.

31:34 I think you're just going to see people like kind of quiet quit the sports.

31:38 So, they're just like gonna stop funding x number of scholarships or like

31:42 you just kind of admitting you're not

31:43 going to be nally competitive in something,

31:45 but you don't want to like fully drop it.

31:47 So, you just don't put a lot of money towards it.

31:49 Um there was like an announcement over the weekend that Pit's

31:52 swimming coach was leaving and basically said like they like

31:55 my interest in the sport doesn't align with like their investment

31:58 in the sport which basically suggests that right that they're

32:02 saying like we're not going to put a lot of money

32:03 towards it whether that's salaries whether that's scholarships um because

32:08 now you can do scholarships up to a certain amount right

32:11 that means you don't have to do all of them right

32:14 and so I I think that's what it is so I'm just calling

32:16 it quiet quitting where you're like not announcing that you're dropping a sport,

32:20 but you're making it clear that like you're

32:21 not expecting to be very competitive in it.

32:27 Weak.

32:26 Yeah.

32:27 I don't I don't love all this, but like this is I think

32:30 these are the hard decisions that people are going to have to make

32:33 um that people kind of hid behind an even playing field for a long time.

32:39 So, they could say like, well,

32:40 we have the scholarships or whatever, blah blah blah.

32:42 Now, you have to actually make the hard decisions about what do you care about?

32:44 What's been historically important to your school?

32:47 How many sports do you want to have?

32:49 um how good are you in them?

32:52 Like what matters?

32:53 Um and I think that that's going to be that's a that's a real thing.

32:57 This is like a real reality for a lot of these schools

33:00 even though they have the record amounts of money coming in.

33:03 Um they're spending it.

33:04 It's a sp they have a sp college sports has a spending problem,

33:07 not a revenue problem.

33:08 Yeah.

33:09 I mean, you walk through some of these uh football and basketball facilities

33:13 and you just see some of the things that are laying around in them,

33:18 like some of the equipment where it's like,

33:20 I don't even know if this is functional and if you can use it,

33:23 or these entertainment areas with golf simulators

33:27 and arcade games and all the different

33:30 things and it's like you just like to have that so when recruits parents come,

33:34 they can swing the clubs.

33:35 The players don't even really Yeah.

33:37 Yeah.

33:37 That's that right there funds another program,

33:42 but you'd rather just have the gear laying

33:44 around there so you can say you have it.

33:48 Every school's got their little logos on every single weight plate.

33:53 Yeah.

33:52 In their football locker room.

33:54 Like there's lots of things where people are just spending money to spend money.

33:57 And again, coaches salaries, buyouts, people are still making decisions.

34:02 Even if you get donors to cover that, those are like there is ultimately like

34:06 not an unlimited amount of money and choices

34:09 of what people are spending money on.

34:10 I could talk about this forever, but we'll we'll save it because I'm sure

34:13 we'll continue to hit it this off season.

34:15 Joshua, I wanted to get one one more question your way.

34:18 I want to ask your thoughts on something before we go.

34:22 One of the big conversations right now

34:24 in college sports is about the NCAA tournament expanding.

34:27 So, it's in the final stages like they've gotten

34:30 their proposal that the money is going to be.

34:33 It's going to be a 76 team NCAA tournament.

34:37 So, that's for the men and for the women.

34:40 Basically, what it's going to be is like two first four sites.

34:44 So, I think Dayton's still expected to keep one.

34:46 [snorts] And then the other one I would anticipate would be

34:49 in the Mountain time zone or the Western time zone.

34:51 So then the teams from that pod can go

34:54 to NCAA tournament sites without having to cross the country.

34:57 That part actually I think is good.

34:59 Um but I don't think adding more opening round games does much.

35:04 Um the way that it's been described to me financially is like it covers

35:08 the costs of doing it and maybe there's like a little bit more opportunity.

35:12 Um because the NCAA can open up some of its

35:14 uh corporate sponsorship deals by opening up the deal.

35:18 Okay, we're in the weeds there.

35:19 I know I lost you.

35:21 No, you didn't lose me.

35:22 It's just like what are we doing?

35:23 Yeah.

35:23 No, no, no.

35:24 There like no one was asking for this.

35:26 This was not necessary.

35:28 There clearly wasn't a ton of money that was available for it

35:33 because this would have happened three years ago if that was the case.

35:36 Um if it was a slam dunk.

35:38 My question to you, seeing that this past,

35:42 seeing that we're moving towards that where you

35:45 just have more games on like the Tuesday,

35:48 Wednesday before the full bracket before Thursday, the round of 64.

35:53 Does tournament expansion mean we're more

35:57 or less likely to get playoff expansion?

36:00 Is it like are there anything we can take?

36:02 It's a lot of the same decision makers for what we can see with the CFP.

36:08 So, I would I don't know if I would

36:10 say this necessarily makes it more or less likely.

36:14 I feel like it was CFPA expansion was always going to be a priority.

36:20 I think the gauging the reaction of this helps

36:24 for the PR of when they ultimately decide to expand the college

36:31 football playoff because you have many fans who are like

36:34 this this feels unnecessary and like these extra teams I'm not

36:38 even really going to consider them tournament teams because like

36:41 what are we doing right so like I think they're going

36:43 to try to have a better plan to roll this out

36:47 for fans to not be like this feels was dumb.

36:51 But I also think that there were a lot of reactions from media that were

36:56 former players or coaches in the basketball

36:59 world and current basketball coaches who are like,

37:03 "This is really important from the opportunity for us because

37:07 it it gives us a different way to characterize success

37:12 for a few more teams throughout the season." And I

37:15 think we we've spoken about this for the college football playoff.

37:20 It's the one thing that I do think that has been

37:23 a benefit is for a team that is 10 and two who

37:30 didn't win a conference title to be like we were

37:33 in and that characterizes success around the type of season that they had.

37:38 Um so but but go ahead.

37:41 Go ahead.

37:41 Does it dilute that though when there are

37:43 It does, but I don't I don't think they look at that.

37:46 And I think that they're they're trying

37:48 to frame it as not necessarily a delilution,

37:51 but more teams who on that bubble were probably as good as the teams

37:57 who snuck in to be able to characterize themselves the same way.

38:01 I think that's how they're trying to spin it.

38:03 I don't necessarily agree with that.

38:05 Like I I don't anticipate these teams would make a run very much.

38:08 Like I don't anticipate the teams that kind of sneak in on the back end

38:12 of the college football playoff to to make

38:14 a deep run on a year in yearout basis.

38:16 Um but that's what they're trying to say.

38:19 And I I do think that is a benefit for more

38:22 programs to not feel like they're just kind of stuck

38:24 in this weird world of like we had a decent enough

38:27 season but we really don't have anything to show for it

38:30 and like nobody wants to play in the NIT anymore.

38:33 So, like it's I I I see that argument from a for a current coach's standpoint.

38:38 I'm just not sure that's going to keep like save people's jobs.

38:41 Like I don't know getting into a playin basically a playin game is going to do

38:45 that and I just think like there's so much that it's going to alienate fans.

38:50 Like part of what makes March Madness so

38:52 great is like the bracket fits perfectly on one.

38:55 It's really good.

38:55 Yeah.

38:56 You don't have to fill out like I never fill out the first four games.

39:00 Yeah.

39:00 So sometimes it screws me later because like that team goes to a sweet

39:03 16 or goes on a run and I didn't like put them in my bracket.

39:06 But now you're going to have to because every 12 seed will be in a playin game.

39:12 None of the five seeds will know who they're playing.

39:14 Like all that stuff is just the little things that make

39:17 it worse that make it a worse experience as a fan.

39:20 Worse for casuals who usually pick up and fill

39:22 out the bracket by Thursday morning for their office pool.

39:26 So, like there's just so much like that where

39:28 I I just I I don't know that the benefits

39:31 that people think like yeah that it will save people's

39:33 jobs that it'll you know that that will mean something.

39:36 I don't know that it will or if it will just

39:38 kind of be like you didn't really make the real thing anyway.

39:42 I think that's where a lot of fans have landed.

39:43 I think that's where fans are going to be.

39:45 And like it makes me wonder too um if Joshua,

39:50 do you think that this would have ever happened if the Pack 12 still existed?

39:54 like if if the conferences didn't get to 16, 17, 18 teams, do we do we get here?

40:00 Uh I think that has a lot to do with it.

40:03 Um and in particular,

40:04 you've talked about this and explained it really well on the football side,

40:08 how not having the Pack 12 really like really screwed up the way things were

40:14 supposed to be with the you know like

40:17 the uh who was included auto bidwise, right?

40:21 like it was supposed to be five power five conferences and then

40:26 you had to do was power four and a group of five

40:28 whatever the case is right and then you look at this where

40:31 like the the conference tournaments

40:33 the Big 10 conference tournament for basketball

40:35 it's like so many so many teams and so many games

40:38 and like what do you do with some of those teams like

40:41 they're at the end who are on the bubble so yeah I

40:43 think like that that has that's certainly part of the calculus here

40:47 okay so let me play devil's advocate because I have heard this argument.

40:53 Doing something that fans probably don't want, like a pretty unpopular move,

40:57 expanding the tournament, even though they're doing it in a small way,

41:00 but they're still doing it might make it easier to go to like

41:03 a 2014 playoff because right now not a lot of fans like that idea, right?

41:08 But if you're deciding it's just better, it's just worth it.

41:13 all the reasons that we're talking about, successful seasons, places to play,

41:18 conferences that are so big, you need more spots for your teams to participate.

41:22 Is it more likely actually because you just did something?

41:26 Yes.

41:27 Maybe against fan the fans feelings?

41:30 No, I I don't I think that it's it's the the weather balloon, right?

41:34 Like they're just they're they're trying to see

41:36 what the reaction is going to be.

41:38 And and I think they're going to do it regardless of how popular it is.

41:41 I think where our anxiety comes a lot of times as fans is,

41:46 oh well, you went to 24.

41:47 What's stopping you from going beyond that?

41:49 Like, who's to say that we're not going

41:50 to be sitting here at 32 teams at some point,

41:53 which feels ridiculous and insane, but like I mean, they' do it, right?

41:59 Like, they don't care, you know?

42:01 Like, that's that's the whole the issue with this is we just don't

42:04 feel like there's a natural 76 doesn't feel like a very natural number for

42:10 Right.

42:10 because and it's it's not and it's not even like the bracket doesn't even

42:15 make sense for that, but they can't move it back because of the Masters.

42:19 So, it's like smooshing their extra games in to the weekdays.

42:22 Here we go.

42:23 Before the third No,

42:24 but that's that's like that's the whole stupidity of all of this though, right?

42:30 If you really were like, "Oh,

42:31 we need to have a certain percentage of division one, right?"

42:34 You would add a full weekend, right?

42:36 Like you would you would just expand the actual bracket.

42:38 Yes, you would.

42:39 you wouldn't be worried about all that other stuff.

42:41 So, just stop.

42:42 But like that's that's where we're at though.

42:44 I Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see.

42:45 I mean, you know, again, we're heading into talking season where people will

42:48 be kind of talking about some of these topics

42:50 and certainly the size of the CFP will be

42:53 a huge talk focal point for a lot of people,

42:55 but um I really do think that these things are kind of connected.

42:59 Who's the most likely in terms of like

43:02 uh stakeholders in college football to want expansion?

43:08 Because like if you're for example Kirby Smart or Ryan Day Kirby like

43:14 or Steve Sarkeesian, right?

43:16 Like I think that they would be tolerable

43:18 to a slightly bigger field but not much more than that.

43:21 I think if Yeah, but there have been there have been

43:23 SEC coaches now that want 24 cuz I think

43:26 I think they're worried about that ninth conference game.

43:29 Which ones?

43:30 Hasn't haven't we heard from Josh Hypel?

43:32 That's what I'm saying.

43:33 Like Josh Hypel feels like he would be like Yeah, we should a beneficiary.

43:37 Yeah, I think Kirby maybe because of the brotherhood

43:40 of the the other coaches that he gets along with, but for himself,

43:43 I don't think he gives a damn.

43:45 I don't think Ryan Day really cares.

43:47 They're they're in it.

43:48 No.

43:48 Right.

43:48 Well, they they got in when it was four.

43:50 They're in it.

43:51 Like, yeah, you don't you don't need it.

43:53 But that that part is going to be interesting.

43:55 And also the divide of like Greg Sinki prefers 16, Tony Patiti prefers 24

44:00 because the 16 captures his teams.

44:03 The 24 teams are always in the fringe.

44:05 more leeway to capture his teams.

44:09 Well, and to help the middle of the Big 10 get better.

44:13 Exactly.

44:13 Whereas like that is not

44:15 PJ Fleck and Kirk Ference, they probably feel very differently about this than,

44:19 you know, Kurt Signetti and and Ryan Day at this point.

44:23 Yeah.

44:24 Yeah.

44:24 Well, talking season is upon us and we'll have so much more to talk about.

44:28 But that'll do it for this week's episode of Rushing the Field.

44:31 He's Joshua Perry.

44:31 I'm Nicole Hourback.

44:32 Thanks for hanging with us and we will see you next week.