Ex-FDA chief says that hantavirus is "not going to spread like a pandemic virus like COVID did"

0:00 Passengers from the hantavirus-stricken cruise

0:02 ship arrived this morning in Spain's

0:05 Canary Islands where they were ferried onto land by small launch boats,

0:09 then checked for symptoms before being flown on evacuation flights.

0:14 Close to 150 people on board the ship and among them 17 of them Americans,

0:21 they're going to be flown to a quarantine unit in Nebraska.

0:25 No one so far is showing symptoms.

0:27 For more now, we turn to former FDA Commissioner Dr.

0:30 Scott Gottlieb.

0:31 He also serves on the boards of Pfizer and United Healthcare.

0:34 Welcome back, doctor.

0:37 Thank you.

0:38 So, there have been three deaths linked to the outbreak.

0:41 Here in the US, there are six states monitoring potential exposure,

0:45 all either linked to the ship itself or flights

0:48 of people who had been on the ship.

0:51 And then those 17 Americans, um do you agree with the CDC and the World

0:56 Health Organization that the risk to public health is low?

1:01 Yeah, I do agree with that.

1:02 Uh we have to concede that there's still things we don't know about this virus.

1:05 We haven't had to grapple with many outbreaks in the past.

1:08 There's been two large outbreaks in Argentina, but based on that experience,

1:11 what we know is that typically for transmission, you have to have close contact.

1:15 We also know that people typically aren't contagious

1:18 unless they have showing signs of of the infection

1:20 itself in the what we call the prodromal phase

1:22 where they start to have an onset of symptoms.

1:24 And the progression from that onset of symptoms to um severe

1:28 disease and in the these cases death is typically just days.

1:32 This is a very aggressive virus.

1:34 And so, based on what we know, the transmission risk is low.

1:36 Now, that said, when you look back at the past experience,

1:39 there are these outlier cases where there appears to have been

1:42 transmission among people who weren't um perceived to be in close contact.

1:46 And so, there are these um cases that we need to look at closely from the past

1:50 experience and just be wary that perhaps there's

1:52 things we don't know fully about this virus.

1:54 I will say say we are nearing the end of the transmission

1:57 window for the people who are being repatriated here in the US.

2:00 And so, it looks to me like the last death on that cruise ship was May 2nd.

2:05 That patient had an onset of symptoms on April 28th.

2:08 If you believe that the incubation period is about 2 to 6 weeks,

2:13 they'll be at the peak of that incubation cycle sometime point this week.

2:17 So, I think we're about 2 weeks away from knowing whether or not

2:19 there'll be additional cases that come

2:21 from that initial outbreak on the cruise ship.

2:23 So, a key moment here.

2:24 I mean, the the WHO said it's very clear this is not COVID all over again.

2:30 But, as you know, it has ignited some of the very same

2:34 skeptics who during the pandemic really

2:36 questioned our government institutions and the response.

2:40 The WHO has said there is no research

2:44 that ivermectin is an effective treatment for the virus.

2:47 But, I'm wondering what you make of these calls

2:50 for alternative treatments and resistance of government health advice.

2:59 Look, I think we're going to be relitigating

3:01 the consequences of COVID for a long time.

3:03 And I think a lot of people who are in public health positions right now believe

3:06 that their tenure and their appointment to these positions

3:09 is a referendum on COVID in some respects.

3:11 And so, that echoes through their public comments.

3:13 This is not COVID.

3:14 It's not going to spread like a pandemic virus like COVID did,

3:17 like a coronavirus did.

3:18 It spreads far less efficiently.

3:20 There aren't any treatments, successful treatments for this virus.

3:23 Ivermectin certainly isn't an effective treatment.

3:26 Just by virtue of its mechanism, it doesn't work against this virus.

3:29 It prevents viral replication in the nucleus,

3:32 not the cytoplasm where this virus replicates.

3:34 It's just not going to work.

3:35 So, I would encourage people not to use that.

3:37 I know that there's been some things

3:38 on social media suggesting that people should stockpile ivermectin.

3:42 We don't have an effective treatment for hantavirus.

3:44 And that that's what makes this very menacing.

3:46 Well, indeed.

3:47 And we're going to continue to to track that.

3:49 You served in the first Trump administration

3:53 as his FDA commissioner in the first term.

3:56 The person in that job now has been a guest on this program, Dr.

4:00 Marty Makary.

4:02 He was a vocal critic of COVID response during Trump and Biden.

4:07 There's a lot of reporting right now that his current

4:10 position that he's at risk of losing his job.

4:14 Given how important the FDA is,

4:15 they regulate I saw 1/5 of consumer spending in this country.

4:20 How damaging would it be to lose its leader

4:24 and is there someone who could step in quickly?

4:29 No one obvious to me.

4:30 There's been some reporting about different candidates

4:32 that could work on an interim basis there.

4:34 Marty's a friend.

4:35 You know, I I think that that's a very difficult job.

4:37 It as you said regulates about 20% of the US economy,

4:40 products that are very important to people's lives,

4:42 medical products, food, food safety.

4:45 And so there's a lot of debate

4:47 and consternation about decisions that get made at FDA.

4:50 And so it's been a controversial position

4:52 for whoever has held that job, including me.

4:54 You know, I got criticized for decisions that I made in that position as well.

4:57 I think the continued upheaval at FDA has been detrimental to the agency,

5:02 not just the speculation about Marty's fate,

5:04 but also the departures that we've seen from the agency.

5:07 The agency has lost thousands of medical reviewers,

5:09 some voluntary through the through the DOJ

5:12 cuts or some forced through the DOJ cuts.

5:15 Involuntary means some voluntary.

5:17 There's been a lot of voluntary departures from the agency.

5:19 If you look at the oncology division, they had a starting strength of about 100

5:22 medical reviewers at the beginning of this administration.

5:24 They're down to about 50.

5:26 The hematological group that reviews drugs for leukemia and lymphoma

5:30 had 21 medical reviewers and is down to six.

5:33 They lost an entire breast cancer review team.

5:35 So there's been a lot of departures from the agency.

5:37 You've seen political appointees take over what are

5:40 typically career leadership positions running the medical product centers,

5:44 the drug center, and the biologic center.

5:46 So I think cumulatively that's taken a toll

5:47 on the agency and this continued speculation

5:50 that we saw on Friday I think is just going to be another step downward.

5:53 Those are stunning numbers to hear you rattle off there.

5:56 Um I want to ask you about some of current leadership there.

6:01 Uh Secretary Kennedy was speaking about

6:05 the use of antidepressants in this country.

6:07 Um almost 17% of Americans use them.

6:10 He says they're over prescribed and he compared his experience of heroin

6:14 withdrawal to a family member's experience

6:17 getting off antidepressants known as SSRIs.

6:20 Take a listen.

6:22 I watched family member get off of them after a couple

6:26 of years on them and she was suicidal literally every day.

6:32 She woke up every morning and said, "I don't want to live." And she said,

6:37 "The only reason I'm staying alive is for you guys,

6:40 for the family." He later said that he was

6:44 not telling people to stop if they're taking that medication.

6:48 But, what do you make of his description of antidepressants as risky?

6:55 Look, these are prescribed in a primary care setting and like any drug

6:57 that's prescribed in that setting I'm sure

6:59 there's some marginal prescribing um you know, isolated marginal prescribing.

7:03 But, for most Americans take these drugs they're very

7:05 important and in some cases life-saving and I would um

7:08 encourage everyone who is thinking about potentially stopping these medications

7:11 based on the secretary's comments to consult their doctor.

7:14 There is a period of time that patients need to be weaned off these drugs.

7:17 They can be successfully weaned off these drugs if they want

7:20 to be and there's alternatives that could be effective for their mental health.

7:23 But, nobody should just stop these drugs um outright

7:26 without being under the consultation of a medical provider.

7:28 I worry that the secretary's comments is going to discourage legitimate use

7:32 of these drugs in the same way that his comments around Tylenol discouraged use

7:36 of Tylenol in the setting of pregnancy where it could be very important

7:38 for certain pregnant women who need pain

7:40 relief and fever relief in that setting.

7:42 We saw a lot of um women move away from those drugs,

7:45 use of those drugs, even appropriate use of those drugs.

7:48 Based on the Secretary's comments about that, I worry about the same thing here.

7:51 It's clear that the Secretary wants to put downward pressure on the prescribing.

7:55 He tried to implement regulatory steps to do that as well.

7:58 And so it is concerning.

8:00 Okay.

8:02 Dr.

8:02 Gottlieb, we're going to have to leave it there.

8:04 I want to have you back to talk about vaping one of these days,

8:08 but I'm going to have to leave it there due to time constraints.

8:10 Thank you so much for your analysis.