I Was Addicted To Opiates & Living In A Van... This Is How I Got Out

0:00 What was your life like 30 years ago?

0:03 I was homeless.

0:06 I was living in the back of a I guess it would be accurate.

0:08 I was living in the back of a van.

0:11 Um I weighed 100 lb.

0:16 I had hepatitis C.

0:18 I had just been arrested for multiple felonies.

0:23 So, yeah, things weren't going very well.

0:26 And I stumbled into a treatment center.

0:32 Because I just I literally did not know what to do that very day.

0:37 Like how am I going to get high today?

0:39 I've got a $300 a day habit.

0:42 It's freezing cold out.

0:43 I have nowhere to go.

0:45 And I don't know how I'm going to get high today.

0:46 So, the only thing I could think to do is like let me just go

0:48 to detox for a couple days to try and just fig- regroup for a minute.

0:56 And when I was there, they asked me.

0:58 They said, "You need to go to a long-term treatment." And I said, "No,

1:02 thank you." I'm not sure exactly exactly what I

1:06 what I had to get back to in the world.

1:08 Like why would you know, what was I thinking?" But I went back to my room

1:11 and I had as we say in recovery a moment

1:13 of clarity where I just realized like I am going to die

1:17 or go to jail very soon if I leave this building.

1:23 And so, I went back and said, "Yeah,

1:25 I'll go to treatment." And I think the thing about that is

1:30 that if we were to film the movie of my life,

1:33 that would be the the epic moment, right?

1:35 That moment.

1:36 And you know, this the the strings would swell

1:39 in the background of the soundtrack and all that.

1:42 But that moment only matters because of the thousands

1:47 of little choices that I made after that moment.

1:51 And that's really kind of what led me to calling my book what I do

1:56 how a little becomes a lot because we tend to think of these big moments.

2:01 But these big moments are only big because they're surrounded by lots of other

2:06 moments that that are kind of off camera but are just as important.

2:11 And I think the thing that people struggle with is how do you

2:14 compound little moments at a time where

2:17 your brain is wired for instant gratification,

2:20 these big moments and also at a time where your life is chaotic

2:25 and you've essentially self-destructed so much

2:28 that you have no hope, no self-confidence.

2:31 How did you build momentum?

2:33 Like at that time when you're you know,

2:34 you're in treatment like you said in detox.

2:37 There's a lot of people that would have, you know,

2:39 I hate to say it like this but taken the easy

2:41 way out and just left and gone back to doing their thing.

2:45 Like like how did you stack those wins?

2:50 Well, I I went to treatment to start with, right?

2:53 And that what that meant for me was all I had to do was not leave.

2:59 Right?

3:00 Like I got down to like one very simple choice.

3:02 Just don't walk out the door.

3:05 And that was valuable to me.

3:08 And so, I was the sort of person on that sobriety attempt that I

3:11 needed that level of structure and I went to a halfway house after.

3:15 So, for me it and those structures allowed me to stack days upon days and over

3:23 time those days start to accumulate into a little

3:27 bit of a belief that things could change.

3:30 And I think the other is I'm around people in recovery at that point

3:34 and they're sharing their stories and I'm I'm slowly story by story,

3:40 meeting by meeting internalizing this idea that there's hope,

3:44 that there's a chance for me.

3:47 So, for me it was I needed I needed more structure in in the beginning.

3:54 And you know, my book is a book about how to make meaningful change.

3:59 I do say that like this is not a book

4:02 if you're in the middle of significant addiction problems.

4:05 Like reading my book is not going to fix you.

4:08 It can be an aid in your recovery,

4:10 but it's not I don't think when you're to the depths I was,

4:13 you're not going to read a book and suddenly be like,

4:15 "Oh, I got this." I needed a whole lot of help.

4:19 I think what people have a hard time with too

4:22 um is like after they get out of a treatment program,

4:26 they get out of a a sober living, like how do you rebuild trust in yourself?

4:32 I think that can be challenging.

4:33 I mean, I think it's also challenging because now you're forced to do it

4:38 in the real world and you don't have

4:39 like that container that's keeping you kind of safe.

4:43 How how how can people how did you

4:45 build self-trust in yourself like once you got out?

4:49 Well, interestingly, the second time that I got sober,

4:52 so I'd mentioned I was sober 8 years and I

4:54 went back out and I was drinking and smoking pot.

4:56 And that got bad again, not bad in the same way.

5:01 My external life was fine.

5:02 I had the best job I'd ever had.

5:04 I was driving a really nice car.

5:05 I was living in a a nice house.

5:09 But inside I knew I was just as sick.

5:12 But I didn't go to treatment that time.

5:14 That time I didn't have that support.

5:16 But I knew a little bit about recovery.

5:19 And so, for me then, it was back to for me meetings have been the big support.

5:26 But rebuilding trust, I think, is something that happens slowly over time cuz I

5:31 don't think at least I'm not capable of BSing myself.

5:35 I'm not capable of saying to myself like, "You're amazing.

5:39 You're killing it.

5:40 You're going to do great." When I when I

5:42 don't when I don't have some of that data.

5:46 So, for me it was get through a day without

5:52 drinking or using and treat that as a really important thing.

5:57 And I could look and go, "Oh, okay.

5:59 Well, I've never been 2 weeks before.

6:01 All right.

6:02 I've never been a month before.

6:04 I've never been 2 months before." And those confidence is slowly start to build.

6:10 And I also had to borrow the confidence of other people.

6:15 Meaning I had to believe that other people had found their way through this.

6:21 And that if I did the things they did

6:25 I had a good chance of getting where they got.

6:27 So, I didn't have to trust in myself.

6:29 What I trusted in was my actions.

6:33 I trusted in the things that I did.

6:35 And luckily, it you know, people were pretty clear.

6:37 Like do this and do that.

6:38 And you know, I know a little bit about your story, right?

6:40 You were in prison and you had a guy in your cell,

6:43 Eric, who started telling you do this, do this, do this, right?

6:47 And so, you may not have fully believed in yourself in that moment,

6:50 but you believed in Eric.

6:51 And you believed if you did the things

6:52 he said and then as you started doing them, you began to build self-confidence.

6:58 And I think that's the way it almost always goes.

7:00 We have to borrow a little bit of it while we're building it in ourselves.

7:04 Yeah, you have to find a way to cling on to hope outside of yourself.

7:09 You know, and I'm glad you brought up I

7:10 mean I mean selfishly my story because I I

7:13 I talk about this a lot in that when I was in that jail cell, I was so hopeless.

7:17 Like I didn't think that I was going to live to see my 25th birthday.

7:22 And when he was like, "Hey, we're going to start doing push-ups." I was like,

7:26 "You got to be kidding." And then when I was able to do a single push-up,

7:29 it felt like I had just in today's world like you know, climbed Mount Everest.

7:36 And it was this this huge sense of euphoria and self-confidence

7:39 and I was able to to compound things from there.

7:41 And I think that I think that when people

7:43 are in so- in a sobriety early sobriety specifically,

7:47 their main fear is am I going to be able to keep this up, right?

7:51 Can I maintain consistency?

7:53 And I think the more days you go without

7:55 using the drug you were addicted to the more confidence

7:59 you will build because you're not just going to have

8:02 that time under your belt and not being like, "Hey,

8:05 I'm proving to myself yet again that I can't accomplish the very thing that I

8:09 know I need to do." I want to talk about like creating separation because

8:15 you said earlier it's like this weird uh mind trap where it's like you have

8:22 this strong urge to not use and this other urge that's telling you to use.

8:27 Um like how can how can people win that inner battle?

8:34 My podcast is called uh The One You Feed

8:36 and it's a it's based on that old parable that we have two wolves inside of us

8:40 that are kind of always at battle with each other.

8:43 And part of the reason I love it is it describes this very thing.

8:47 We all know the feeling of being pulled in multiple directions.

8:51 You can talk about it in addiction like a really extreme case of it,

8:55 but we all face it all the time.

8:57 I I want to be in shape, but I also want to lay on the couch, right?

9:02 I want to eat healthy, but there's a donut sitting here today at work.

9:05 So, we all know this internal pull and we all work against it.

9:11 And one of the key things,

9:13 a question that that I have found to be really helpful is to ask myself,

9:19 "What do I want most versus what do I want now?"

9:24 And that question is really helpful because it takes the thing

9:29 that I the long-term thing that I'm aiming towards it and it

9:33 reframes it in my mind as is I do want this.

9:38 Right?

9:39 I just I feel like something else now.

9:41 And so, that question for me is a really simple reorientation.

9:45 Now, there's a whole lot more that goes

9:48 into dealing with cravings that are that are strong,

9:51 but that's a really good start.

9:54 And you mentioned that you went back out.

9:57 Um what was that process like and how did

10:00 that impact your self-esteem and the way you see recovery?

10:05 Yeah, so I was like I was extraordinarily involved

10:10 in 12-step programs for the first 7 years of my recovery.

10:13 I mean, I went to meetings all the time.

10:15 I sponsored people.

10:16 I was all the way in.

10:19 And then one day I came home and my uh wife at the time, mother of my son, said,

10:25 "I fell in love with somebody else." And it was somebody

10:27 who was in an AA meeting that we went to together.

10:32 And I was uh I was obviously angry.

10:36 I was heartbroken.

10:37 And it just caused me to start to drift away from 12-step programs.

10:43 And after I did that long enough, I began to have certain other behaviors

10:50 emerging that were not quite back to addiction,

10:54 but but were in hindsight concerning.

10:57 I started smoking cigarettes at that point.

10:59 I had been a heroin addict and had never

11:01 smoked cigarettes cuz I hated them cuz my parents did.

11:04 So, I started smoking cigarettes at like, you know,

11:08 uh 33 or something for for no good reason.

11:11 I was engaging in um you know, promiscuous behavior.

11:16 I just was off the path.

11:21 And I started thinking you know heroin's a terrible idea.

11:27 Like we can all agree on that, right?

11:29 It's a bad idea.

11:31 I was so young then.

11:33 And look, I make good decisions in my life.

11:35 Like I've got a good career.

11:37 I'm doing well.

11:37 I have a son.

11:38 I make good decisions.

11:39 I take care of him.

11:40 I take care of my health.

11:42 You know, I was just making bad

11:43 decisions using a substance that's really addictive.

11:47 It probably be okay if I drank.

11:50 And I just slowly worked my way till there.

11:53 And then I did.

11:54 I drank.

11:55 And the world didn't end.

11:58 Nothing happened really.

11:59 I had a couple drinks, went to bed, no big deal.

12:01 Didn't wake up the next day dying to do it again.

12:04 I just And then, of course,

12:08 the fact that I had to get sober again tells you the rest of that story.

12:12 I don't need to go don't need to go through it in detail.

12:15 But it was extraordinarily hard to come back to recovery after having been,

12:21 you know, 8 years sober, having, like I said, sponsoring so many people,

12:26 being so involved, so sort of visible, and now walk back in and be like,

12:31 "Well, I've got zero days." That was really, really difficult.

12:36 Um And all I could do was just back to the little things.

12:44 I just showed up.

12:45 I just did my best to show up today and then show up again and show up again.

12:49 And it was different.

12:50 It was different the second time around for a whole bunch of reasons.

12:54 But I did enough that I was able to stay sober.

12:59 I appreciate your vulnerability with with everything cuz

13:01 I think that's something that people struggle with, right?

13:04 Is they get a period of time and then something happens in their life and then

13:10 they go back out and then they create more problems or they create this or that.

13:14 And then they just never kind of get their life together.

13:17 And they let that event be the catalyst for why not only the you know,

13:25 the I guess the quote-unquote happens,

13:27 but why everything else in their life just magically falls apart.

13:31 You know, and how how did you prevent that?

13:34 It was hard because the first time I described my situation.

13:39 I mean, I had so clearly had my ass handed to me by drugs and alcohol.

13:45 The second time wasn't the same.

13:49 Now, internally I I was able to recognize

13:51 like I'm I'm completely out of control.

13:54 But externally, and I had to keep saying to myself like,

13:57 "Do you really need to follow this where you know it's going?

14:02 Do I really need to wait until I get a DUI?

14:04 Do I really need to wait until I get into an accident with my son

14:08 in the car cuz I'm stoned out of my mind?" But that's intellectual.

14:14 That's intellectual and that's a little bit harder.

14:17 I found that a little bit harder.

14:20 I ultimately am glad that there's there's a certain

14:24 amount of What's the way to say this?

14:28 I I'd gotten just enough recovery that I was

14:31 able to really see the internal element of this.

14:35 And the internal element was I felt out of control.

14:39 And what that turned into was this pessimism about my entire life.

14:46 Because a part of me, a deep part of me knew as long as I was doing

14:51 that I was going to I was going to eff it all up.

14:55 Or I was never going to make really the kind of progress I wanted.

14:59 And so, I just, like I said, started doing the the thing again.

15:03 Just show back up.

15:04 Show back up.

15:05 Show back up.

15:06 It was harder.

15:07 The desire to drink didn't leave as fast.

15:09 It was all just more challenging.

15:11 But I know a lot of people who've not

15:13 found their way back from that place I was.

15:17 And I'm really grateful that I was able to.

15:20 But I just had to I had to sort of let go of the idea of counting days.

15:26 I just had to abandon that concept.

15:28 Because it every day was going to be like, "Well, okay, you got a year.

15:31 Big deal.

15:32 You used to have eight.

15:33 You got 2 years.

15:34 Big deal.

15:34 You used to have eight." So,

15:36 I kind of just really did my best to shove that out of my mind.

15:40 And it's a sort of bizarre grading system anyway.

15:45 Right?

15:45 We don't grade most anything else in life at either 100 or zero.

15:50 Which is the way we tend to grade sobriety.

15:54 Right?

15:54 I was back at zero because I had gone back out.

15:57 And on one hand, yes.

15:59 But on another hand, no, I wasn't.

16:02 I still had a lot of what I learned in those 8 years inside of me.

16:07 And so, for me, I moved away from counting days

16:11 and just really focused on It's a cliché, but that day.

16:16 You know, you mentioned earlier people doubt their ability to keep doing it.

16:21 And one way to get over that is not is to realize like

16:24 you can't make sure you're going to do it 2 weeks from now today.

16:28 There's nothing you can do except do your best with it today.

16:32 And so, I think that did align me much more to really that message.

16:38 Like don't count days, just stay sober today.

16:41 Just stay sober today.

16:43 What's going to happen when I get to 8 years?

16:44 Will I go back out?

16:45 Like I all those thoughts just don't really do me any good.

16:50 So, what's the action I can take today that's

16:52 going to give me a chance to get to tomorrow?

16:55 So, you brought up this notion that you know,

16:58 you used to have 8 years, now you have 2 years.

17:00 And that's like a battle that I think people face.

17:02 It's like you know, one a year they make $80,000

17:06 a year versus the year before that they made like 150.

17:10 You know, there's a huge gap there.

17:11 They're like, "Oh my gosh, well I mean, I made this much,

17:14 but last year you made more or I used to be able to bench press this much,

17:18 but when you were like 27,

17:19 you could bench press this." And that's a that's a real issue that people face.

17:22 I don't I don't have a a name for it.

17:24 Um But generally speaking, like zooming out, how can people get better at that?

17:30 Yeah, it is a real issue.

17:32 You're right.

17:33 Because I think the nature of making any sort of change in life is

17:39 that you're going to do well and then you're going to you're going to fall off.

17:44 And ideally you get back on.

17:47 And and the people who are successful at it

17:50 know how to kind of get back on really quickly.

17:54 But there will be times where you fall way off.

17:59 And you're resetting from 8 years to zero years.

18:02 Or you're resetting from I used to be able to do

18:05 200 lb of bench press and now I can only do 100.

18:10 And there is something to really being able

18:13 to say I've got to start from where I am.

18:19 That phrase has always been one that's resonated with me.

18:22 You know, start where you are.

18:24 Not where you wish you were.

18:26 You know, not where I wish I was.

18:28 Not where I think I should be.

18:30 Where am I?

18:32 And if I can reset and let that be the starting

18:34 point and view all my progress as forward from that point,

18:40 not measuring it against some past state that just doesn't exist anymore.

18:48 Right?

18:48 I am not the person who could do I mean, on one hand, yes,

18:52 I'm the person who could bench press 200 lb

18:54 and now I'm the person who can bench press 125.

18:57 But in another way, I'm not the same person.

18:59 I don't have the same body.

19:00 I don't have the same skills.

19:01 I don't I mean, I I got to be where I am.

19:05 So, that's what I always just say to myself.

19:07 Start where you are.

19:08 Start where you are.

19:09 And I I work with coaching clients a lot on this very

19:12 thing because they are thinking they need to start back where they were.

19:17 And that is almost always a recipe for failure.

19:20 How can people get more patient

19:22 in delaying the gratification and in remaining humble

19:26 to start literally where they're at instead

19:28 of like focusing on what other people are doing?

19:32 Well, I think that you know, one of the ideas I talk about in the book

19:38 is that we are the meaning makers in our lives.

19:45 Like there are facts and then there are interpretations.

19:48 And most of what goes on in our mind is interpretation.

19:53 There's a fact that I used to be able to do this and I now do this.

19:57 There's a fact that I have 5,000 social media followers, they have 100,000.

20:04 But then we attach all sorts of meaning to that.

20:09 I'm not as good as them, I'll never get there.

20:12 Why can't I be where I was?

20:13 There's all this mental activity that we that we do and we

20:18 tend to just think that that comparison is a fact, but it's not.

20:26 There's an interpretation, right?

20:28 Because one interpretation could be oh,

20:31 I have 5,000, they've got 50,000, I'm failing.

20:35 Another interpretation could be I used to have 3,000,

20:37 now I have 5,000, I'm moving in the right direction.

20:40 Those are both true.

20:42 So, what I do for myself and I've I've

20:45 coached lots of lots of people on is asking, what am I making this mean?

20:53 What am I making this mean?

20:54 We got to catch the meaning making in action.

20:59 And then we can follow up with and what else could it mean?

21:02 Not that we have to throw away our interpretation,

21:05 not that we have to change it,

21:06 we just have to see there are other interpretations possible.

21:11 And then the final question is a really important one.

21:15 Which of those is most useful?

21:19 Because if those are both true,

21:21 if it's true that I only have 5,000 and and you know,

21:24 Doug's got 50,000, okay, that's true.

21:27 What's my meaning?

21:28 Oh, I'm not as good as Doug, I'll never get there.

21:30 If [snorts] my interpretation is I used to have 3,000, now I have 5,000,

21:35 which of those two meanings is more going to make

21:37 it more likely that I'll get where I want to go?

21:41 Well, it's obvious, right?

21:42 The other one.

21:44 And so we are we do have we do have the ability

21:49 to choose what thoughts we want to feed and engage with.

21:53 We can't stop what thoughts show up.

21:57 I mean, I've been a long time meditator and I can tell you [laughter]

22:00 from from a lot of first-hand experience, you can't control what pops up.

22:05 But you can control which ones you want

22:07 to engage with, which ones you want to believe.

22:10 And so I'm a big believer in recognizing

22:12 I'm making meaning and then taking some degree

22:17 of of action in choosing the meaning that's going to get me where I want to go.

22:22 The people that I've talked to what really breaks them,

22:25 too, is when you have like a setback.

22:27 We talked about, you know, your you going back out, right?

22:31 And that that breaks them for a period of time.

22:35 And then I I hinted at that like, you know, your entire life self-destructs,

22:39 um you know, after that because if you're

22:41 the decisions and the choices that you made,

22:43 like what's a good framework for people being able

22:46 to use like setbacks to their advantage and and providing

22:51 those as tools for like opportunities for growth and not

22:55 for a reason to continue to make more mistakes.

22:58 Yeah, I have a framework in my book that I call the renew framework.

23:02 And it's about getting back on track after setbacks.

23:06 And it stands for first, recognize it's normal.

23:11 Like people have setbacks.

23:13 It we we do well, we do other times we don't do well.

23:17 That's the way life is.

23:19 Then embrace your why.

23:20 Why does this thing matter to you?

23:23 Because sometimes we're chasing something that doesn't

23:26 matter to us anymore in the same way.

23:29 We've got to get clear.

23:30 Is this still really important to me?

23:31 If so, why?

23:33 Right?

23:33 Why is important?

23:34 It's part of our motivation.

23:37 Then here's the big one, which we're spending a lot of time talking about,

23:40 is neutralize the emotional drama.

23:43 All that head talk that goes on about it is emotional drama that does not help.

23:53 And if we can neutralize the emotional drama,

23:55 we can do the next thing, which is to extract the lesson.

24:00 What can I learn?

24:02 And then finally, the W is just um walk forward with action.

24:09 But here's a big secret of change.

24:11 It's not really a secret, but change is a learning process.

24:16 Right?

24:17 You you you have to learn what's working, what's not working.

24:23 The problem with all this emotional drama is it stops us from learning.

24:28 Because we're in a shame spiral,

24:30 we're we're talking to ourselves negatively, we're not capable of learning.

24:34 And learning is exactly what we need.

24:38 We have to go, oh, okay.

24:40 For me, I had to go, well, what happened?

24:43 Why did I end up using again?

24:47 I didn't learn the lesson.

24:49 As long as I was in like, you failure, you lost it, you had eight years,

24:53 everybody's you should be ashamed of yourself,

24:54 how are you going to show your face?

24:57 Emotional drama.

24:58 And I'm not saying this is easy, by the way.

25:00 I'm not saying like it's easy to set this stuff aside.

25:05 But we keep working at it.

25:07 But then I had to extract the lesson.

25:09 And so this can happen for things that are really big,

25:12 but it can happen for little little fall-offs, too.

25:15 Oh, I was doing really great on my training

25:18 and then I haven't worked out for 2 weeks.

25:21 Instead of oh, I'm a failure,

25:23 I always do this, I never finish what I start, emotional drama, why?

25:30 Oh, well, I went on vacation and when I got back from vacation,

25:33 I just didn't get started again.

25:35 Right?

25:35 That's an extraordinarily common thing.

25:37 We're doing well, we go on vacation and coming back is a really rough reentry.

25:43 Okay, so now I know.

25:45 Next time I go on vacation, maybe I should set up a couple of training sessions

25:49 with my trainer to get me back in the loop.

25:52 That's how we extract extract the lesson

25:55 and that gives us a way to walk forward.

25:58 Yeah, and I think what what is a challenge, um and I was actually talking about

26:01 this this morning with somebody, is, you know,

26:04 sometime you know, I think the big win is just surviving that intense

26:09 bout of of discomfort and not trying to fix it right away.

26:14 And this is something that I've struggled with off and on is like,

26:17 you know, not trying to fix problems right away.

26:22 And not not not running from them,

26:24 but giving it some time so that you can you can get

26:26 through it and then objectively look at like the next move forward.

26:31 Um and then the time frame is different depending on what you're going through,

26:33 but I think where addicts and people who tend to blow their life up

26:38 struggle with is that this that intense

26:40 discomfort is so overwhelming or the failure

26:44 or the thought that they want to just push it away and they

26:48 push it away with substances or by making decisions that are you know,

26:51 going to make them feel better in the short term,

26:53 but long term make their life more chaotic.

26:56 And so I think it's just about like riding that wave.

26:59 And then once you get on the other side of that wave,

27:01 you know, like you said like you find lessons, you find like action plan,

27:05 you can figure out like what's my next plan of attack versus you know,

27:10 trying to think irrationally when you're going through like

27:12 an emotional wave um where you can't think clearly.

27:17 Yeah, I mean, sometimes emotions hit and they're so strong that they

27:21 they flood out our attempts to really be able to do anything else.

27:26 And that's just it's like a 2-year-old.

27:28 Like you you know a two you know,

27:30 you see a 2-year-old who My son when he was two,

27:33 if I didn't get him to sleep by a certain time,

27:36 I knew we were in danger of a meltdown that that almost

27:41 nothing was going to to settle down for a while, right?

27:45 And I think we're often the same.

27:47 We get hit with something that's so strong emotionally.

27:50 Yeah, we've just got to okay, I all these fancy things that Eric and Doug

27:54 are talking about aren't doing me any good right now.

27:57 You know, I'm trying to be rational and I'm unable to and yeah,

28:00 I hear all that stuff, but Eric's really full of because right,

28:03 you just okay, like you said.

28:06 I I often am a big believer in like, how do I just not make things worse?

28:15 Right?

28:15 We have an enormous capability to make things worse.

28:18 That doesn't sound like a lot to start with.

28:20 You're like, okay, well, that's not very inspiring.

28:23 But when you think of the ways that we

28:24 are capable of making things worse with our own mind,

28:28 not making it worse while we settle is a really useful skill.

28:33 And that's what you're talking about, ride it out.

28:35 Yeah, ride it out.

28:36 And you you have to ride out that wave because it can just be really tough.

28:41 And I think that I think it's why it's important to also have tools to like

28:46 think about like what you're going to do

28:48 in that moment when that when it happens.

28:50 Like I have like a I I tell people it comes down to awareness,

28:55 like being aware of the problem, what's actually going on, acceptance,

28:58 accepting that things in life are going to happen,

29:01 and then what and then action.

29:02 And then being like, what am I going to do?

29:03 Not fix the problem, but like how can I move through this in a way

29:08 that's going to make my situation a little bit better or how

29:10 can I change my state to get myself in a better

29:12 frame of mind and then kind of repeat that as needed.

29:16 You know, I know you've talked about meditation.

29:18 Um I know you're a guy [clears throat] that's deeply connected to yourself.

29:21 Like what helps you like let's just say something happened

29:25 in your business or in the podcast where it got you really annoyed,

29:29 um how would you calm yourself down in the moment?

29:32 Well, I had this actually happen just this weekend.

29:36 On Friday, I got a piece of incredible news about the book.

29:41 I can't really go into specifics,

29:42 but it was a really big deal and I was really excited.

29:47 I was really excited.

29:48 I was like, I cannot believe this is happening.

29:50 Oh my god.

29:51 Oh my god.

29:51 Oh my god.

29:53 And then on Sunday, I talked to the connection that, you know,

29:58 somebody had talked to somebody and I talked to that person and I found

30:00 out an awful lot of what I thought was going to happen was speculation.

30:07 So, I was then feeling a lot of intense disappointment.

30:13 And again, in the grand scheme huge, but this book is really important to me.

30:19 So, I'm very emotionally invested.

30:21 And so, there was a couple hour period that morning where I knew that being I

30:28 knew there was nothing I could do about it and ruminating on it wasn't any good.

30:32 And yet, I was also disappointed.

30:35 So, how do I allow myself to feel disappointed, but also not keep feeding it.

30:42 And I think that's a that's a line we're all walking very often, right?

30:46 Like, I don't want to repress my emotions.

30:49 I got to feel them, but I also don't want to indulge them.

30:53 And so, for me, what I found I was sitting

30:55 in the shower and my brain I would be like,

30:58 okay, there's nothing else to think about with that.

31:00 Do something else.

31:01 And then 30 seconds later, I'm replaying the story, right?

31:04 We all know what this is like and then you're like, I don't that's not any use.

31:07 That's not useful.

31:08 30 seconds later, I'm replaying the story.

31:11 So, for me, I have little strategies that I've planned out

31:14 ahead of time and one of mine I call concentration games.

31:19 And I give my brain something else to do.

31:24 So, I'm sitting in the shower.

31:26 I can't exactly like, you know, put on a podcast.

31:29 I mean, I guess I could, but anyway, I got to work with my own mind.

31:34 And so, I did a game that I like to play where I try and think

31:37 of a song that starts with the letter A and I try and hear the melody.

31:41 Then I go to B.

31:42 What's a song that starts with B and I think of the melody.

31:45 And then the thought pops back in my head

31:47 about the disappointment and then I go, okay, what's C?

31:50 What I'm doing is giving my brain,

31:52 instead of just saying don't think about that, which doesn't work very well.

31:55 I'm actually giving my brain something to do

31:59 to support it while we let the emotions ride through.

32:03 I'm not trying to say like you can't feel

32:05 that, but I am also saying like don't keep thinking about it.

32:08 That's you're not that's not doing any good.

32:11 So, I don't know if that's helpful,

32:12 but that's an example of like what I try and do.

32:16 Yeah, and I think it there's varying levels of it, right?

32:19 Like, um and you brought up something with the book and you know,

32:25 I know when stuff like that happens for me,

32:26 I get really irritated, you know, and it's hard to like let it go because,

32:31 you know, you have these high expectations for something.

32:33 You you you're so passionate about your work

32:36 and then you think something's going to happen and maybe

32:37 it doesn't or maybe it's just not going

32:39 to happen or whatever and you're like, oh, no.

32:42 And then you like you know, I'm sure you're pretty hard you could be pretty hard

32:46 on yourself and like is this something that I did?

32:48 Is it some sort of like flaw and or whatever, right?

32:51 And you spiral.

32:52 I think when it's like a more of a life or death situation,

32:56 it's tougher to navigate that framework because the the the the immediate

33:03 need to fix something might be like way more urgent.

33:08 Agreed.

33:08 I mean, if the story hadn't been I'm disappointed about this thing I thought

33:12 would happen to the book and was instead that my partner came home and said,

33:16 I'm leaving you, right?

33:18 These I wouldn't be like, well,

33:19 just go in the go in the shower and think of a cute little game.

33:23 Right?

33:23 It's obviously bigger than that.

33:26 But the same tools and ideas do apply, right?

33:33 It's just that the emotional level is so much higher.

33:40 [snorts] And so, I there'd be a couple things

33:41 that I would think of in that situation, right?

33:44 Like, if something really difficult,

33:46 really bad happens with me that's like a real problem,

33:50 I A, what is there anything I can do to fix it?

33:53 Because I do believe that when we take action

33:56 towards something that matters to us, we feel better.

34:00 What can I do to improve it?

34:01 Any action I think is useful.

34:03 But a lot of times there's not much you can do.

34:06 So, I then would be turning back to what we talked about earlier,

34:10 which is where's my support?

34:13 Who are my people?

34:15 I can't carry this by myself right now.

34:19 I can't manage my emotions by myself right now.

34:24 So, I need more support than I normally would.

34:27 Right?

34:27 This thing that happened me over the weekend, not a big deal.

34:29 I could talk to my partner Jenny about it.

34:32 I could work through it.

34:33 Okay, fine.

34:34 Right?

34:34 Not a big deal.

34:36 But you're right, big things happen.

34:39 And big things take we need more support.

34:43 We need more help.

34:44 And I think trying to think that we're good we got

34:47 to handle it all ourselves is a big part of the problem.

34:50 Yeah, and I think the little things become the big things, right?

34:52 So, as I'm like hearing you talk about this, like [sighs]

34:56 you know, it's easy to be like, all right.

34:59 It's easy to minimize problems, right?

35:01 And to say, well, it's not as big of a deal

35:03 as if your partner came in and said, I'm leaving you.

35:06 Like, it's over.

35:07 Like, that would have been a way bigger fish to fry in the process.

35:12 Yes.

35:11 And that being said, zooming out,

35:14 if you didn't have a protocol or a um a way for managing the little stuff,

35:19 the little stuff becomes the big things.

35:20 It's like the people who they get stressed at work

35:23 every day and they're the ones at happy hour for two,

35:25 three hours every single day,

35:26 you know, getting drunk because they can't, you know,

35:28 stand what they do for work and then that compounds and becomes a bigger issue.

35:33 Right?

35:34 So, the little things you need to do become the big things.

35:37 You're a guy that has you've been in recovery for a long time.

35:42 Learned a lot of lessons,

35:43 which we've talked about some of the biggest ones already.

35:46 But for people who are just starting out and they're early

35:50 in recovery um and they want to make the most of it.

35:54 They want to to to to to learn the challenges they can expect.

35:59 They want to hear like what actually works.

36:01 They want to know what they can expect.

36:04 Like, how would you advise someone who who's new to recovery?

36:08 Everybody's a little bit different.

36:11 And so, whether a 12-step program is the right thing

36:14 for you or exercise is the right thing for you,

36:18 I think that what is helpful though,

36:20 some generalizations I could make are who who supports you in this?

36:27 Right?

36:27 That's really important because addiction is a matter of I think power.

36:33 You know, 12-step programs talk about, you know,

36:35 we admitted we were powerless over alcohol or drugs.

36:38 Now, you may not like that statement and maybe powerless is the wrong word,

36:43 but what it but what we see is we don't

36:46 have enough power to stop doing this thing by ourselves.

36:50 So, we get more.

36:52 Where do we get the power from?

36:53 Well, there's lots of different places.

36:57 One of them is other people.

36:58 So, for me, and it goes back to the situation we just talked about a minute ago.

37:02 When I'm feeling in over my head, I'm thinking, who where do I get more help?

37:08 Where do I get more support?

37:10 And I would say that's a really important part of recovery.

37:15 I think the second is, do I have a plan or a path for change?

37:23 I think there's lots of them.

37:26 The 12 steps are just a path to internal change.

37:30 Smart recovery has steps to internal change.

37:33 Your sober coach might have steps to internal change,

37:37 but do I have something that I know what I can do?

37:42 Okay, I need to do this.

37:44 Then I need to do that.

37:45 Then they have me do this.

37:47 Is there something of a path?

37:50 Because if we don't change who we are inside, it's only a matter of time.

37:55 We eventually will end up back there.

37:59 Right?

37:59 And so, I walked away and I stopped going to 12-step meetings about 7 years ago.

38:06 I mean, I occasionally go and I

38:08 thank 12-step programs with saving my life twice,

38:11 but I just found they weren't what I needed for my growth at that point.

38:16 But I was very wary after my earlier I

38:20 stopped going to meetings and and went back out.

38:22 So, I spent time and I thought about like, what is it I'm getting here?

38:27 And the first that I got was exactly where I said, there's people.

38:32 I get to connect with other people.

38:34 I have support.

38:35 I get to support, you know, other people.

38:38 I'm around this type of thinking.

38:42 The second was there's a plan there.

38:43 Work work the steps.

38:47 And then the third one that has been

38:49 a big part of my recovery is helping other people.

38:54 And 12-step meetings make that very easy, right?

38:58 If you're a week sober, there's somebody walking in the door who's a day sober.

39:01 Right?

39:01 There's just opportunities right there to help other people.

39:05 It's sort of And so, what I think is like, you know,

39:08 12-step meetings package all of that up in a nice little bundle for you.

39:12 And for some people,

39:13 they're the perfect thing and for other people, they're not.

39:15 But I reverse engineered what I need and then I looked in my own life.

39:19 Where are my people?

39:21 What's my process for changing?

39:22 In my case at that point, I was a very much a Zen student.

39:27 So, I was working with the teacher.

39:30 And then who do I where do I help?

39:32 And I've got different avenues in my life that I do that.

39:35 So, I think those three things are really

39:38 sort of foundational to any sort of lasting recovery.

39:43 How can people find purpose in their pain?

39:48 For me, the minute that I was able to see

39:53 my pain help someone else was when the purpose started to emerge.

40:01 That that that's been the path for me and I think it is for a lot of people.

40:07 Your pain doesn't you know I'm not going to say your.

40:11 My pain didn't serve any purpose.

40:13 I couldn't it didn't have a purpose until I found some way to use it.

40:17 Now again, this is not to say that at 3 days sober I was like,

40:20 all right, I need to go out and write a book about my recovery.

40:23 But what I but the but I did start finding like oh,

40:28 somebody I got to talk to somebody today um

40:31 who's where I was or uh somebody at work was

40:36 having a hard day and I was able to empathize

40:38 with them because I've been through some difficult things, right?

40:42 When we start to see our pain transform into being of service to other people,

40:47 for me that's where the purpose naturally starts to evolve.

40:51 Now, how much of your life that purpose takes up and I mean

40:54 there's lots of variation in this, but for me that's how it happens.

40:59 Yeah, I mean I think when you can help other

41:01 people go through some of the same problems you went through.

41:05 I think that's when you feel like the pain begins to melt a little bit.

41:12 And then transcending that into helping other people,

41:15 I just think is it's so important, so valuable.

41:19 Yeah, again and I I don't I don't want

41:21 to sound like I'm uh beating the drum for 12-step

41:23 programs cuz I don't think they're the right thing

41:25 for everybody and it just makes that really easy.

41:30 Right?

41:30 It just provides a venue where that happens naturally and that's

41:34 a good thing because you don't have to figure out, oh,

41:37 how am I going to take this difficult thing I've been through and help other

41:40 people because you just show up and you're

41:42 sharing your experience and you're helping other people.

41:44 Um so finding that is important, I believe.

41:49 And I think that one of the other things that people

41:52 have a hard time with, too is like addressing some

41:56 of the pain um that's been deep-rooted in them that led

42:02 to an addiction or that was caused by an addiction.

42:05 Like how did you begin to process a lot of what wrong

42:07 in your life a lot of what went wrong in your life?

42:10 Yeah, interestingly when I got sober the first time I was

42:15 told fairly clearly like don't worry about all that in the beginning.

42:21 And so for me, it was all about like what am I doing

42:24 today to stay sober and that's what worked for me at that time.

42:31 But several years on I started to realize like, okay like yes, I'm sober,

42:38 things are better and some of this underlying emotional stuff is still there.

42:43 In my case, it was depression.

42:47 Um a rather serious bout of it.

42:50 And so then I did need to start unpacking some of that.

42:55 Right?

42:55 And in my case, it was it was going back and looking

42:58 at like I don't think we ever know the why to anything.

43:01 I think the whys that we give are

43:03 are simple stories that mask a very complex reality.

43:06 So if I were to say I'm an addict because I don't know, who knows, right?

43:10 But we know contributing factors, right?

43:13 I know the way I was raised there were challenges in my development.

43:18 Right?

43:18 And so looking at what those are and understanding

43:22 the impacts that that had on me and then learning,

43:26 okay, well, what do I do with that when that feeling comes up now?

43:32 Was an important part of it and so for me that was therapy,

43:35 there was a men's group over time

43:38 that morphed into a lot more of meditation, right?

43:42 Learning to feel something and go okay, I'm literally going to sit with this.

43:48 Like I'm literally not going to get up, I'm not going to move,

43:51 I'm I'm I'm not going to do anything in response to this uncomfortable emotion.

43:57 Right?

43:57 I learned to do that.

43:58 Early on, I couldn't meditate barely at all because that was overwhelming.

44:04 It was too much.

44:06 But over time as I healed,

44:08 I was better able to sort of do that and so that was part of it.

44:11 And so there's all these different strands interweave

44:14 themselves for me as part of my recovery.

44:19 It's the books I read, it's the podcasts I listen to, it's the therapy

44:22 I go to, it's the conversations I have with friends,

44:25 it's the conversations I'm blessed to have on my podcast,

44:28 but all of that starts to weave together

44:31 into but but everybody's tapestry is going to be different.

44:36 You know, the things that you need to weave into your tapestry to heal

44:40 and become the person you want to be are very possibly very different than mine.

44:44 Like for you, exercise was a huge one.

44:48 Now, for me, it also became really important.

44:50 It became a really important way I managed depression.

44:55 But that that emerged a little bit later.

44:58 For you, it emerged right away and it was

45:00 a really big thread that went right through it.

45:02 So yours and I's right away is different.

45:05 So so people's will be different,

45:07 but I think you find the threads that help you feel whole again.

45:13 Yeah, I think that there's there's certain principles

45:16 that I think are important for everyone whether or not

45:20 um whether whether or not they're on a 12-step

45:23 program or not when it comes to recovery.

45:25 I think the first one is exercise in some way.

45:30 I think moving your body in some capacity.

45:33 Yep.

45:35 Being a great inner circle of people you spend time with, community.

45:40 Third, um spirituality in in a in a way that works for you,

45:44 like whether you're religious, Christian, Jewish,

45:48 Muslim you know, gratitude, like what you know, whatever.

45:52 Find your flavor of that that works.

45:54 Um and two other things the other two things are self-awareness, like you know,

46:00 you're aware of why you're not doing certain

46:03 things and like what your habits and behaviors are.

46:07 And then the last one is like remembering why you started.

46:10 Remembering like why you decided to get sober and or in recovery in the first

46:14 place because that's what you're going to cling on to when it gets tough.

46:17 Like especially in the early days when you're like, you know,

46:20 like maybe I'll just go back or maybe I'll just go

46:22 do this and you have to remember like where your life

46:25 was in those moments so that you don't end up making

46:29 a poor decision that's going to you know put you back, you know, a few years.

46:35 Yep.

46:36 100% those are absolutely I think key foundations.

46:40 One of the problems that I've had in recovery

46:43 um especially early on was having compassion for myself.

46:46 Um how can people get better at having practicing self-compassion when they are

46:52 coming to terms with the fact that they have made some really bad choices?

46:57 This is a really hard one.

46:59 And I think it's foundationally important.

47:02 Probably the besides stopping using drugs the biggest upgrade I've given

47:09 my life is that I've become kind in how I relate to myself.

47:13 Like I think that is the single thing that I've done that improves

47:17 my overall well-being the most because who do we spend all our time with?

47:21 Ourselves, right?

47:23 We spend way more time with ourselves than anyone else.

47:26 And so I I had a very harsh internal critic for a lot of years.

47:33 And I think how do we do that is challenging.

47:39 So I think first we have to recognize that being kind and self-compassionate

47:46 is not allowing ourselves to be off the hook to do whatever we want,

47:50 not holding ourselves accountable.

47:53 That's not those are not the same thing.

47:55 To me, self-compassion is this this sweet

47:57 spot between self-acceptance and self-improvement.

48:03 Right?

48:05 But that I'm always on my side.

48:09 Doesn't mean I have to say that what I did was okay.

48:12 But I'm always on my side.

48:15 And and that's just a a foundational shift.

48:18 The other thing that's really hard is we all have this thing

48:22 where we are very capable of being kind and compassionate to other people.

48:29 But we can't do it for ourselves.

48:30 This is called Solomon's paradox.

48:33 It's named after King Solomon from the Bible who was famously wise,

48:37 people travel traveled around the world for his advice,

48:40 but was a train wreck in his own life.

48:42 It's called Solomon's paradox.

48:43 We're capable of being wise.

48:45 So I think one line is really helpful.

48:49 Be a friend to yourself.

48:50 And what I mean by that is literally imagine what would I say to a friend?

48:57 This is an exercise where you kind of have

48:58 to pause and you have to really think.

49:00 What would I say to a friend?

49:03 And now let me practice saying that to myself.

49:05 What that does is it gets you around Solomon's paradox for a second.

49:10 It also allows you to find the words you would actually use.

49:15 Because for some people putting a hand on their heart and saying,

49:17 okay, sweetheart, like you're doing fine would work great.

49:21 Other people would make them want to throw up, right?

49:23 You got to find the words that that work for you.

49:29 And then we learn to work with this inner critic.

49:34 You know, another a simple technique you can do

49:37 is give that critic a name and a personality.

49:42 So, for example, my I don't have much of an inner critic anymore.

49:47 He's kind of he's kind of settled down a lot.

49:50 What I do have is an inner Eeyore.

49:52 From Winnie the Pooh, right?

49:54 That that very pathetic donkey who always

49:56 said like things are really going bad, right?

49:59 I imagine when I'm having gloomy thoughts, I try and put it in that voice.

50:04 And what that does is it creates distance cuz all what we're trying to do

50:08 in all these cases is create a little space between us and our thoughts.

50:12 Okay, I'm thinking that X is a big step forward from just being lost in it.

50:20 Oh, I realize I'm having the thought that I'm

50:22 a piece of is better than I'm a piece of right?

50:26 So, distancing is what we want to do.

50:28 Naming that critic is a form of distancing.

50:32 It also allows us to recognize that voice and ideally

50:36 maybe makes us laugh or smile a little bit.

50:39 And so that's those are without going in I've got a whole chapter in the book

50:43 on this, but those are a couple of quick ideas for how to do it.

50:48 It is really hard and it takes a lot of time to to to totally transform that.

50:54 And the last thing I'll say is we learn

50:57 to appreciate and celebrate the little things that we do.

51:02 All right, I stayed sober today.

51:04 That's not the whole world, but that's a really big deal.

51:07 That's a really big deal.

51:09 It was drilled into me in the beginning of recovery.

51:11 Like any day you're sober is a win and I really took that to heart for a while.

51:17 I may have been a I may have done

51:18 a bunch of shitty things today, but I stayed sober.

51:20 That's a big deal.

51:23 What are some of the big mistakes you see

51:24 people make when they're trying to make a transformation?

51:27 I think one really big one is that we assume the ability to make

51:32 a change ends up we turn it into a moral or a character problem.

51:39 I can't change.

51:40 I'm the kind of person who can't change.

51:42 I never finish anything I start.

51:45 I'm just lazy.

51:46 I'm undisciplined.

51:47 I'm And when we can switch that into recognizing that change is a skills issue.

51:57 There are skills to making a change.

52:00 You don't know those skills right now.

52:03 That's a really foundational and important switch.

52:08 Right?

52:09 When I realized like my thinking was once an addict always an addict.

52:14 I'd heard that phrase.

52:16 That I just was weaker than other people.

52:18 I didn't have discipline.

52:20 But but when my brain switched a little bit and went, wait a second.

52:24 Oh, we know a lot about how to change.

52:30 I just don't have the skills yet.

52:31 That gets us out of that self-recrimination game to a certain

52:35 degree and allows us to focus on, okay then, what do I need to learn?

52:40 What do I need to do?

52:42 So, I think that's a really foundational first step in any kind of change.

52:47 I really appreciate what you do.

52:48 I've really enjoyed talking to you and getting to know you.

52:50 Um if people want to buy the book, if they want to learn more about you,

52:53 if they want to they want to listen to your podcast,

52:55 where's the best place to do all that?

52:57 Yeah, if you go to one you feed.net,

53:00 that's o n e y o u feed.net, the podcast is there.

53:05 There are links to the book there.

53:07 You can find everything about me.

53:09 Amazing.

53:09 Well, Eric, thank you once again for for coming on the show.

53:12 I really enjoyed this conversation.

53:14 Thank you, Doug.

53:15 I really enjoyed it also.

53:16 I appreciate it.