Oobah Butler: The Digital Mirage

0:01 [music]

0:04 Where did you grow up?

0:05 I grew up in a little village called Fakenham in in England.

0:09 Sorry.

0:11 ridiculous.

0:11 sorry.

0:11 Fakenham is like Why did you look at me?

0:13 No, come on.

0:14 You can't tell me you didn't enjoy that.

0:15 Fakenham.

0:16 You seem like you're from Fakenham.

0:18 [laughter]

0:18 In fact, from now on I'm going to say that about you.

0:20 My friend Eugene from Fakenham.

0:24 [laughter]

0:24 You've been Fakenham in my whole life.

0:26 You're a Fakenham if if I saw one.

0:28 I just I just say this to call my to clip that for my mom and

0:33 [laughter]

0:32 Trevor Noah saying Fakenham That's it.

0:35 I'm already I'm quick.

0:36 Yeah, I'm done.

0:37 I'm happy.

0:40 [music]

0:44 This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

0:57 [music]

0:57 Solitary athletes it's sort of like they are paying for their wife to be

1:04 able to be their companion in the world so that it's not a solitary anymore.

1:08 So now when you're riding a bike in the mountains

1:10 preparing for the you know during the off season Yes.

1:12 you're not alone.

1:13 Yes.

1:14 And then when you you have to fly through the Alps to go

1:16 and ski every day to prepare for the thing you're not alone.

1:20 And then you know what I mean?

1:21 Yeah.

1:21 Cuz the the the fundamental truth is if she has to work She won't be there.

1:25 She just won't be there.

1:26 And then you will you like you know what it was like comedy on the road?

1:29 Yeah.

1:30 That was not lonely.

1:32 Yeah, it's it's The amount of comedians who

1:35 committed suicide in like a random hotel room somewhere.

1:39 Jesus.

1:39 It's actually like a like a really high number if you look at the industry.

1:42 Mhm.

1:42 It would always be like random comedian dead by themselves.

1:47 It's always them alone.

1:48 You know what I mean?

1:49 Mhm.

1:50 So I can I can see that where it's like it's more them going Yeah,

1:55 I'm like sort of paying for her to be able to do this.

1:58 Let's go.

2:00 I suppose it changes when they have when they have kids as well cuz

2:02 then they then they'll What do they bring the kids with them as well?

2:05 Yeah, they do.

2:06 Do they do?

2:06 They do.

2:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:07 Kids live on the road with them.

2:08 Also remember that most of them started being on the road when they were um, 13?

2:14 13, 14?

2:15 Yeah.

2:15 They had to get out of school.

2:17 Yeah.

2:17 All they know.

2:18 They always All of them say one thing,

2:20 I missed out on my matric dance, I missed out on university.

2:25 I don't know what it's like.

2:25 So, they always say they look at their old friends as a distant memory.

2:32 Oh, that's interesting.

2:33 Like they think when they were 13 their their life

2:35 stopped when they were 13 having school lunches.

2:38 And all of a sudden all of them have a a common story.

2:40 Uh, their parent came to school,

2:42 spoke to the principal, then the principal was like,

2:44 "Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you can uh" Then they never saw their friends again.

2:47 And all of a sudden they were in a camp.

2:49 They were wearing sponsored clothes.

2:50 They were going downhill.

2:51 They were surfing.

2:52 They were doing all of this.

2:53 And they've never returned again.

2:54 So, through their wives they get to live vicariously, you know?

2:57 They get to hear about how was it when

2:58 you were at that and then and then and then.

3:00 But most of them don't also know how to be parents.

3:02 Right.

3:03 Because they're strangers to their kids.

3:04 The biggest fear of retirement is what am I going to do when I

3:07 Off-season is a is a torture when the kids get older cuz they think,

3:10 "What am I going to say to this person?" We don't know the routine.

3:13 She or he or she doesn't know, "I'm a stranger.

3:16 I show up and they go What are you doing?

3:18 Yeah." At least if you've got that like Red Bull sponsorship you got money.

3:22 Whereas with like the Olympic athletes that it seems like they have no money.

3:26 They got no money either.

3:27 That that that might be for me the the the most depressing trajectory.

3:32 Yeah, Olympic

3:33 Olympic athletes, yeah.

3:34 Because most of them don't get anything in that way.

3:38 Yes.

3:38 They don't get the endorsement deals.

3:40 They don't get the ad campaigns.

3:43 They don't get the reward money.

3:45 They don't get anything.

3:47 Yes.

3:47 You or it's almost worse for the ones that like win the gold or something.

3:53 But like you know those like golds that mean

3:56 Skeet shooting.

3:58 [laughter] [laughter] I've said getting there twice today.

4:11 [laughter]

4:10 I could take a number one.

4:12 I could take a 60th minute.

4:15 Oh, when he had the assist from Salah?

4:17 Yeah, it's a good goal.

4:19 It's a nice goal.

4:20 You have something to say to me Trevor.

4:21 You you know who you are.

4:22 Who am I?

4:24 [laughter]

4:24 Who am I?

4:24 the great Gatsby of the great Gatsby of football.

4:29 No, of football.

4:32 [laughter] Because Eugene Eugene knows nothing about football and his greatest

4:35 joy is acting like he's fully [laughter] invested in it.

4:40 And then like he'll he'll absorb everything we say

4:43 and then first he'll like throw it back at us.

4:45 a little thing back.

4:46 Oh, but like [laughter] impeccably.

4:50 Impeccably and he'll he'll just I remember the first time

4:52 he did it and [laughter] I didn't pick it up.

4:54 So you you'd say something and then someone would go like they'd be like man

4:58 today's game they'd be like Salah's like and then he'd be like dude Salah's like

5:03 [laughter] and then they would just go off they'd be like

5:04 man I just don't get what and then like the last

5:06 thing would be like like why is he on the right

5:08 and Eugene's like well why is he ON THE RIGHT?

5:11 [laughter] AND YOU'D WATCH [laughter] you'd learn.

5:15 I mean I'm I'm just saying it you're talking sense.

5:18 Yeah, why is he on the right?

5:19 We need him in the middle yeah, you're right.

5:21 Yeah, yeah.

5:21 You'd watch people you'd watch people have

5:24 a conversation by themselves just prodded on by Eugene.

5:28 [laughter] Just prodding him on just prodding him on.

5:31 It's just happened.

5:32 He just got me.

5:33 Yeah, well he's fantastic at it.

5:35 I I just started cuz I've I've been living here what lately two years

5:39 now and I just I like love sports so I'll watch it I'll watch anything.

5:45 But, I'm you're one of those people.

5:47 No, I'm well, kind of.

5:48 But, I'm I love football.

5:50 I love cricket, which is why I asked cuz I was like,

5:52 "It's interesting." I don't watch much of it,

5:54 but I watch like the England national team.

5:57 I don't watch it much else.

5:58 I'm not watching like Indian Premier League and like if it's on, great,

6:02 but uh I started watching the Knicks

6:05 this year because of the because of the playoffs.

6:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:08 It was amazing.

6:08 That was like that felt like, "Okay,

6:10 I get it." And and watching watching basketball without ever

6:13 properly having people around me who know what's going on.

6:17 You don't understand what the Jeff is doing.

6:18 that's all sports.

6:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:20 Yeah, I feel like that's all sports.

6:21 story, you need a story.

6:23 You need like you need that.

6:25 That's good.

6:25 Yeah, and it was like that was cool.

6:27 I went like I went last week.

6:29 This week, when was it?

6:30 Monday?

6:30 Last Monday.

6:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:32 I went to Knicks and uh with some

6:34 terrible team who all looked about 14 years old.

6:37 Uh they beat them.

6:38 North Carolina?

6:40 No, I guess.

6:40 I don't know.

6:41 Is South Carolina?

6:42 I don't keep up at all.

6:43 It was it was sick.

6:45 It was great.

6:45 I don't keep up at all.

6:47 an accident.

6:48 I was like, "Oh, I'll probably like baseball hasn't happened." Like,

6:52 "Oh, maybe I'll like hockey." No,

6:53 but if you like cricket if you like cricket, I think you will like baseball.

6:57 Yeah.

6:58 So, when I was I've always I don't even think I haven't liked ba- baseball.

7:06 I've just been like, "What is the point of this?

7:08 What are we doing here?" When I went to a baseball game recently,

7:12 I had a friend who came and sat with me

7:15 for He would just happen to be at the game coincidentally.

7:18 And then he came and he said he's I was like, "Oh,

7:20 what are you doing here?" He's like, "Oh." And then he's like,

7:22 "So, do you Do you know what's happen- Score was 0-0 when like the I don't know,

7:26 seventh inning or something.

7:28 Nothing was moving.

7:29 I was just like, "What are we doing here, guys?" And then he sat down.

7:32 He's like, "Man, what a great game, right?" And I was like, "Ah, man, sorry.

7:35 I don't [laughter] I was like, "I'm

7:36 It's 0-0.

7:37 not happening." But, more than 0-0 cuz like you

7:40 know like 0-0 in in soccer or in football

7:43 for me has a lot of like there's a lot of tension Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

7:49 depending on where the time is Yeah exactly So

7:53 now he came and introduced that all to me

7:55 so he's like okay so you see this picture

7:58 right now he's getting close to his hundredth pitch Mhm.

8:02 and so now they're trying to wear him out

8:04 and get him to a hundred pitches because once once

8:07 he gets to a hundred pitches then they have

8:08 to bring in the new pitcher Oh I didn't know that.

8:10 And you see exactly that's what I mean I didn't know any of this stuff

8:13 so then I realized baseball is all a game of like I'm all good.

8:18 It's all good.

8:18 Thank you.

8:18 Baseball is almost like a Have you ever played those those those games they're

8:24 normally mobile games but you used to play them back in the day on computers

8:27 as well where you were like chipping

8:28 away at something chipping away at something chipping

8:30 away at something then the wall bursts and then it's like now the war starts.

8:35 Or yeah or or those where they where you hit the ball and then the balls

8:38 get increased Or think of it this way like think of a TV show right?

8:41 Sometimes you'll watch a great show where it's like

8:44 a Game of Thrones or one of those and if

8:47 you don't know the show like six episodes can

8:53 be about what's going to happen in the war.

8:56 Yeah yeah.

8:56 Do you know what I mean?

8:57 Every episode is just people looking at maps.

8:59 My lord [laughter] my lord if we assail their forces

9:03 from this direction my lord then it should be easier.

9:05 OH WE'RE NEVER GOING TO GET THROUGH THAT THERE.

9:08 What do you mean?

9:09 And if you don't know that show Yeah you're so sucks.

9:11 You're like this is terrible what is what is happening nothing's happening.

9:14 Yes.

9:15 Nothing's happening.

9:16 But to your point because you know the jeopardy

9:19 you're like oh man what are they going to do?

9:20 Yeah.

9:21 They're going to go here they're going Yeah yeah.

9:22 That's baseball.

9:23 Yeah.

9:23 So baseball is one of the sports

9:24 where if you don't understand the jeopardy Yeah.

9:28 I don't think you can understand the I don't think

9:30 you can appreciate the sport because unlike basketball unlike other sports

9:33 where it's like oh ball goes there in ah ball

9:36 goes there in ah ball goes there in no baseball is

9:41 like, "What are they going to do?

9:42 Are they now going to put him in?" And you know,

9:45 a right-handed throwing to a left batsman.

9:48 Oh, this is You know, it's going to be like this stressful.

9:50 What are we Oh.

9:51 Oh.

9:52 Oh.

9:52 And there's this whole tipping point.

9:54 I I didn't know this before.

9:55 There's a whole tipping point where when

9:56 the pitcher gets you 100 pitches, it's basically it.

9:59 idea about that.

9:59 I had no idea.

10:01 So, you put your best You put your best pitcher in.

10:05 Yeah.

10:04 You try and get as many outs as possible in as few pitches as possible.

10:09 But, if you get to 100 pitches, you like sort of have to take them out.

10:12 Wow.

10:13 Or they have to leave at 100 pitches.

10:15 they have to go rest their arm.

10:16 It's like a Uber driver.

10:17 So, after 12 hours [laughter]

10:19 Oh, is that right?

10:19 Yes, they have to leave.

10:21 for 12 hours.

10:21 After 12 hours, they look [laughter] You've done your best, okay?

10:26 Dropped off a few grannies, two drunk people.

10:29 This is it for you.

10:31 Yeah, and [laughter] so you got to You got to take them and you got to Yeah,

10:35 you got to You've got to You've got to take the person and then

10:36 rest and then And then you get the really[ __] Uber driver in.

10:41 [laughter] No, but that's basically what happened.

10:43 Then the Apparently, the drop-off So,

10:44 the cuz I was confused by that, but the drop-off to the second

10:47 pitcher is apparently quite high because all the best pitchers are on a team.

10:52 they want they want to all be Yeah, they're they're the best pitcher.

10:56 So, the drop-off to the second one is like they're way more hittable.

10:59 They would like This is where the home runs are going to come now.

11:01 This is where the ball Makes sense.

11:03 That's where the scoring is supposed to sort of happen.

11:06 So, it becomes this this tactical game of like,

11:08 "When do you switch your pitchers?

11:09 When do you not switch your pitchers?

11:11 How you You know, and then just because that guy

11:13 came in and introduced it to me, I was like, "Oh.

11:16 totally understand the tension.

11:17 Okay, now I understand the tension.

11:20 Yeah.

11:19 Now Now I get Now I get why everyone

11:22 in the stadium is like breathing these collective like So,

11:27 the only time baseball became fun is when it turned into the Kardashians.

11:32 That's one way to it.

11:33 became dramatic, there was a lot of tension.

11:36 Or rather when someone or rather when

11:38 someone showed me that it was the Kardashians.

11:41 It didn't turn into.

11:42 You know if there's one thing I want to Have you been to the Super Bowl?

11:44 No.

11:45 I want to do that.

11:45 You want to go to the Super Bowl?

11:46 Oh yeah, but not for the football, for the pomp and ceremony.

11:50 It's a thing.

11:51 How's that excellent?

11:53 Yeah, yeah, I liked it.

11:54 Yeah, I mean it didn't even it didn't flag up you didn't flinch once, huh?

11:57 No, I didn't flinch.

12:00 [laughter]

12:02 Uh but Uber, welcome, man.

12:03 Welcome welcome to the to the podcast.

12:05 This is No, no, no, what do you mean?

12:08 Why is it okay?

12:09 What are you going to drink from the floor?

12:10 Well, [laughter] yeah, I was a COUPLE OF THINGS.

12:16 HE'S LIKE THROUGH YOUR SLEEVE.

12:19 [laughter] Uh no, man.

12:23 Can I tell you you're one of those um You know when you you

12:26 know when you form an idea of somebody in your mind before you meet them?

12:29 Yeah.

12:29 [laughter] You're one of those people where the first

12:32 time I heard about you I was just like, wait, who is this person?

12:36 Like cuz the the first time I heard about you,

12:38 it's when you created the world's most

12:41 popular restaurant that no one could get into.

12:44 Yeah.

12:44 Yeah.

12:45 No one could visit.

12:46 Everyone wanted to go It like it was number one on Trip Advisor.

12:49 Everyone in the world was like, you've got to go to this restaurant.

12:52 It's the greatest restaurant.

12:53 It had like how many thousand reviews at one point?

12:55 actually that many, but it was it was more the algorithmic hack.

12:58 But yeah.

12:59 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like it had put it at the top of the thing.

13:01 Exactly, yeah.

13:02 It was enough and they were done at the right time and that was an accident.

13:05 I wasn't being clever, but yeah.

13:06 Excellent.

13:07 Well, no, it wasn't,

13:08 but it it was it was lucky it tremendously lucky that it worked, I think.

13:14 So, I'm saying.

13:14 Like I don't think the fact that it actually I mean you interrupted me.

13:18 No, no, no, you're not.

13:18 This is You can't interrupt me.

13:20 No, no, no, no, no, no.

13:21 I was just Trust me.

13:23 You can't.

13:24 You can't You just can't interrupt.

13:25 Okay.

13:26 I need [laughter] to see I I need to understand where the jeopardy is.

13:28 So, I need to know [laughter] Yeah, no.

13:35 I mean that Yeah, I mean you said that that was

13:39 the first time I think anybody heard of me I think at all.

13:41 It was uh Yeah, tremendously lucky.

13:43 Like it was kind of one of those things where it was like

13:45 this like idea that was like I was doing on the side of other ideas.

13:50 I was like, "Okay, I'm going to slowly build this up." And the And the longer

13:52 it went on the more silly it it got and the more mental

13:56 Yeah, the more people bought into it and I was like, "Well,

13:58 at at some point someone's going to knock

14:00 on my door and be like what are you doing, you child?" You know?

14:03 And and And I was going to get in trouble and and it would be taken

14:06 down or what I just didn't think I thought at some point it would go wrong.

14:12 Um We're presuming now that the viewer

14:14 understands what the hell I'm talking about.

14:16 We'll give them a little context.

14:17 That'll be fine.

14:18 But for those for those who don't know it

14:19 was basically a you you created a fake restaurant Yeah.

14:23 in London and it was a place that everyone was dying to go to.

14:26 And then at some point publications started picking it up and they're like, "Oh,

14:29 the best restaurant in London that you can't

14:31 get into it." And then they wanted to cover

14:33 it and then publicists wanted to be a part of it and it was a whole thing.

14:35 And it becomes this whole world.

14:37 And then I think at some point you did cuz it didn't exist, right?

14:42 Yeah, it was It was completely made up.

14:44 Yeah, you you you created this fake world.

14:47 I'm so into this.

14:48 Yeah, this is why I love [laughter] this is why I for me I'm in.

14:51 So, I'LL TELL YOU YOU KNOW you people always go like,

14:52 "Why do you have somebody on?" Yeah.

14:55 Through and through for me.

14:57 [laughter] You made me realize so you live my dream.

15:01 That's why you're here.

15:02 You No, genuinely you live my dream.

15:05 I'll tell you what because my dream has always been

15:08 to be like like a like a massive like fraudster.

15:11 But then I go you go to jail.

15:13 And then you do it and I was like, "Oh,

15:15 you There's a way to do it and not go to jail." It's good being a wife.

15:20 [laughter] She say.

15:21 Cuz I was like this to me is fraud.

15:23 This seems like massive fraud.

15:25 But if you film it and if you if you have a camera where you're like,

15:28 so I'm going to do this fraud, then it's now it's a prank.

15:31 Yes.

15:31 Yeah.

15:32 Yeah.

15:32 Yeah.

15:32 Yeah.

15:33 between fraud and a prank That's a good one.

15:35 Yeah, it's a loophole.

15:36 Yeah, the loophole is you got to say ahead of time to a camera, or it's like,

15:40 hey guys, this is so day one of planning this prank, then it's not fraud.

15:45 So wait, so like, oh yeah, so let me get this right.

15:46 So if you are Move your thing there so Hannah's doesn't shame.

15:49 If if there's a camera and then you're just talking to it,

15:52 yeah, then it's a it's a diary confession.

15:56 Yes, exactly.

15:56 Exactly.

15:57 Exactly.

15:57 But if there's a cop behind it, it's a deposition.

16:00 That's the difference.

16:00 [laughter] Basically, it's who brings the camera.

16:03 If you bring the camera, it's a porn.

16:10 [laughter]

16:09 So um You you're not wrong.

16:12 If you bring a camera, it's a porn.

16:13 If someone else brings the camera, it's a sex tape.

16:16 Yeah, and that's against the law.

16:17 Yes, you see.

16:18 So [laughter] But like So so let's talk through this and then

16:25 I want to get into like how you Yeah.

16:27 how you even get into this world.

16:31 You have the the number one Talk me through how you start the scam.

16:36 Like where did you even begin the idea of I'm going to create

16:39 the world's most popular restaurant that doesn't actually exist but gets all

16:43 these reviews and then gets written about and then people want to pay

16:46 exorbitant amounts of money to come to but they've never been to it.

16:49 Like cuz you there's a few things that you do here.

16:53 You [snorts] you encapsulate in one story hype.

16:57 You encapsulate myth.

16:58 You encapsulate like just how we in the world

17:02 all want things that aren't even real.

17:04 Yeah.

17:05 Cuz people were dying to go to this restaurant.

17:07 People were like, oh, when I go to London, like, you know what?

17:09 I wish I could go but I can't get in.

17:11 Oh, [laughter] and the food is amazing.

17:13 Oh.

17:14 But it's not real.

17:17 I was like, this this man has tapped into every

17:19 single thing that's sort of like wrong with the world.

17:23 And not today, just like it's sort of like the human brain.

17:25 So, so walk us through how you created the greatest restaurant scam.

17:29 How does it start?

17:30 Uh So, yeah, I mean, I suppose that I'd been when I was younger,

17:36 I used to work in sort of bars and restaurants and stuff like that.

17:39 So, I'd been in those contexts.

17:41 I'd been Where was this, by the way?

17:42 Where did you grow up?

17:43 I grew up in a little village called Fakenham in uh [clears throat] in England.

17:47 Sorry.

17:48 Sounds ridiculous, but no.

17:49 Fakenham is like Why do you look at me?

17:51 No, come on.

17:52 You can't tell me you didn't enjoy that.

17:53 Fakenham.

17:54 You seem like you're from Fakenham.

17:56 [laughter] In fact, from now on, I'm going to say that about you.

17:59 My friend Eugene from Fakenham.

18:03 [laughter] YOU'VE BEEN FAKENHAM MY WHOLE LIFE.

18:04 YOU'RE A Fakenham if ever I saw one.

18:07 I just I just had this I can't wait to clip that for my mom and dad.

18:11 [laughter]

18:10 Trevor Noah's saying Fakenham is just That's just I'm already I'm cooked here.

18:15 I'm done.

18:15 [laughter] I'm I'm happy.

18:17 Uh no, I mean, I So, I grew up in the middle of nowhere, basically.

18:20 My mom's My mom's family been there for hundreds of years.

18:24 Got webbed toes to prove it and all that.

18:25 [laughter] Uh you know, no, not really.

18:28 But, uh might as well do.

18:29 Um and then my dad's family are from Birmingham and Ireland.

18:32 And like, so um we I grew up there.

18:35 Uh I I'm the youngest of six.

18:37 So, sort of desperate for attention, that kind of that kind of type.

18:40 Um we were sort of token working class family in a kind

18:44 of village of like lots of very Also, like a posh vibe.

18:48 And then farmers, posh farmers.

18:51 You're right in the middle.

18:52 And then a lot of the Yeah, and a lot of the people who you would have worked

18:55 in the mills and stuff have have moved a long time ago.

18:57 But, my mom's fam- our family's still there.

18:59 So, it's like a fun environment to grow up in.

19:02 Um and yeah, I suppose I just did like like I I didn't go to college.

19:06 I stayed in Fakenham way too long.

19:09 Uh and I would take jobs that I could get.

19:12 And one of the first sort of set of jobs I would get was working in bars,

19:15 working in restaurants and in those contexts

19:20 I remember just hearing about TripAdvisor constantly

19:22 and how if someone left a one star review it would be a problem

19:26 you know for everyone what what what what happened last night you know it

19:28 would be like it was a very serious platform TripAdvisor holds that much power.

19:33 Yeah I've sort of heard about [clears throat]

19:34 this from lots of but really so if you work

19:36 in a food or beverage establishment if someone leaves

19:40 a one star review it shakes the place up.

19:41 It's still the same way it's just the I think it's a migrated

19:44 slightly I think Google reviews is probably the number one now I

19:46 would say but like it's my like when I was doing that when

19:49 I did that TripAdvisor was the biggest tourist website on the planet.

19:53 I would say it's probably still it's still

19:54 big probably one of the top three or something.

19:56 no it is definitely.

19:57 But yeah I mean it still happens now if

19:59 someone leaves a one star review it's on you.

20:02 So it's interesting yeah.

20:04 Wait wait wait so when they leave the one star do they say

20:06 it was him that I'm leaving the one star for or for the restaurant?

20:10 happen yeah.

20:10 It does happen yeah yeah.

20:12 It's like a daily petty version of the Michelin star.

20:15 It's terrible.

20:16 It really is.

20:16 Have you never read I love reading Google reviews.

20:18 No I don't I don't no literally and then they'll they'll put Ryan.

20:21 They'll literally [laughter] go We do have Ryan.

20:24 They'll literally go they'll just be like um one

20:27 star and then I read I like reading the one

20:30 stars because I go to leave one star for a place

20:33 cuz remember that's the lowest you can leave basically.

20:35 Yeah.

20:36 So you left one star.

20:37 Yes.

20:37 The worst experience you could possibly have.

20:39 Yes this is the So I want to know

20:40 what the worst experience in your life could be.

20:43 So you go in there.

20:43 So I go read one star reviews.

20:45 Yeah.

20:45 I always want to read the one star reviews.

20:47 Yeah and then it's like especially in a in a place that has

20:49 like let's say a place has an average of 4.6 or 4.7.

20:52 Then there's that one one star.

20:54 Thousands of people have said this is 4.7 worthy and then someone has

20:57 a one star I'm like okay I want to know what happened here.

20:59 Yeah what's happening here.

20:59 The shop across the road.

21:00 And then you go in competition.

21:03 Yo you go in [laughter] That is that definitely happens.

21:09 Definitely, definitely, definitely.

21:10 Yes, cuz the number one whistleblowers in any

21:13 situation are people who didn't get the contract.

21:16 Oh, I like that.

21:18 Anyway.

21:18 Yeah.

21:19 So then they'll go in and then it'll

21:21 it'll be it'll sometimes be like um "Great food,

21:27 great ambiance, great atmosphere."

21:29 So compliments first.

21:30 Yeah, all these things.

21:31 Then it's like they're establishing that they're reasonable.

21:34 Yes.

21:35 [laughter] I like this actually.

21:36 I like this.

21:37 Then they'll then they'll then they'll go then

21:39 they'll go like "Appetizers were a little expensive,

21:41 but still great." And then they'll be like "Eugene, [laughter]

21:47 OUR SERVER, TOTALLY UNPROFESSIONAL.

21:51 Didn't like how he treated us.

21:54 Should be fired." Yeah.

21:56 Just like that.

21:56 That's it.

21:57 One star.

21:57 One star.

21:58 Yeah.

21:59 So I'm the problem.

22:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

22:00 Yeah.

22:02 Yeah, I I so so I ended up I actually before I did the restaurant thing.

22:06 So what happened was so I had that little experience.

22:09 Years five, six years pass.

22:11 Then I start working as a writer, trying to work as a writer.

22:14 To move to London, try and start hustling, try and like what can I get paid for?

22:18 What gigs can I get paid for?

22:20 yeah.

22:20 I know this life.

22:22 And and the I there was a like a freelance website and it

22:25 was called PeoplePerHour and they would like people would advertise like writer,

22:30 we need a writer to do X, Y, or Z.

22:31 One of the gigs on there was writing fake five-star reviews

22:35 No way.

22:35 restaurants.

22:36 So to reduce their reduce their ratings.

22:38 God loves you.

22:39 Yeah, yeah.

22:40 So so I started doing that and and I would

22:42 just go like go on their website go all right, okay.

22:46 I went there.

22:46 I had the whatever.

22:48 No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

22:49 You you can't just skim over this because I'll tell you I'll tell you why.

22:52 Because right now what you're doing I think for me and I I think other

22:56 people is you are exposing the very

23:00 underpinnings of how like we think society works.

23:03 Great, yeah.

23:04 Right.

23:04 No, cuz a lot of people they like people trust reviews.

23:08 Do you know what I mean?

23:09 [clears throat] And more than that, people trust well-written reviews.

23:11 Yeah, definitely.

23:12 Do you know what I mean?

23:13 So, if you go on like Amazon or if you go on TripAdvisor, you go on Google,

23:17 you go on any of these, the better written the review, the more you trust it.

23:21 Yeah.

23:22 Yeah.

23:22 So, I'm not a regular user of drinking glasses.

23:28 And so, when I began this journey, I thought to myself,

23:30 "Where would I find the right drinking glass?" And you're like, "Oh, I'm in.

23:33 I'm in." And now you're telling me that this is

23:36 a freelance job that people get hired to do.

23:38 I mean, I would say now it's way more advanced than that.

23:41 This is This is 8 years ago, 7 or 8 years ago.

23:44 So, I think that that now it is

23:45 a what the manipulation of it is far more sophisticated.

23:48 I mean, we all know this that our lives are curated by um I don't know,

23:55 manipulated realities, aren't they?

23:57 And then, you know, people's decisions with my thing,

23:59 which we'll get on to, yeah, was based on a on a false reality

24:03 with that had been constructed and sold to us as legitimate.

24:06 And I think what my The reason why this ended up becoming this huge viral story

24:10 and that you saw it and everything was like

24:13 that it tapped into this whole thing about this like,

24:15 "Oh my god, this It's like taking What is it?

24:18 The blue pill or the red pill?

24:19 I don't know.

24:19 I've lost track." pill.

24:20 The red pill.

24:21 You take it and then you have it and then you see how things work.

24:23 And like, I don't know now it was it's fascinating how many bots there are.

24:24 How many things like that.

24:25 I don't know now it was it's fascinating how many bots there are.

24:29 How many things like that.

24:30 How much of our online experience is falsified.

24:33 I think back then, yeah, it was I was getting paid.

24:36 the bot.

24:36 I was the bot.

24:37 I was the bot.

24:38 I mean, look, I didn't know I never knew there were human bots.

24:42 You're writing these fake reviews, right?

24:43 You're You're in this world.

24:45 What made you a good fake reviewer?

24:48 Uh willingness and

24:53 [laughter] openness to mis truths.

24:56 No, I look I Oh man.

24:58 I don't know.

24:59 I Yeah, I suppose Yeah, I mean, literally what I just said is true.

25:04 Like I I think I'm a bullshitter at heart.

25:06 My dad is a bullshitter.

25:08 I actually might my great uncle like No, no.

25:12 Great granddad moved to the US, right?

25:15 Temporarily came back, went back to the Birmingham, England.

25:18 He came here I And this is a real story.

25:20 Came here and sold uh rabbit droppings,

25:24 so rabbit[ __] rolled in flour and sold as a medicine.

25:27 My man.

25:28 That's real.

25:29 That I didn't know about this.

25:30 I did not know about this until this year.

25:33 So, I was looking at [laughter] There was rabbit[ __] in my DNA.

25:38 Um You know, I'm like But but in all honesty,

25:42 like there was always like a It felt I could I suppose

25:46 it felt faceless and it felt I didn't do loads of it,

25:49 you know, I'm not like I'm I'm earning bank by writing these things.

25:53 How much did you earn per review?

25:54 10 pounds.

25:55 So, what, $13.50?

25:57 Yeah, no, I mean, that's a 10 pounds.

26:00 it's a lot of money.

26:00 Yeah, that's a lot of money.

26:01 I think 10 pounds per review?

26:03 I would be pumping those Did you have like a limit?

26:05 I I would guess that I probably only wrote about 20 of them.

26:09 And then what happened?

26:10 Well, I mean, I just found other gigs.

26:13 I was doing other things.

26:14 So, so it but it was that It was a not like the main job that I had.

26:18 It was I was in London.

26:19 I'd just moved there and I had I had no re- I hadn't been to college.

26:22 I had no reason to think I could be a writer,

26:24 but I was trying to do stuff just get to get

26:27 paid for it to legitimize it and trying to do something.

26:31 You truly do.

26:32 I was going to, but in the middle of writing, I realized I'm not qualified.

26:37 But anyway, that It doesn't [laughter] matter.

26:38 It doesn't matter.

26:40 That doesn't matter.

26:41 Come on.

26:41 No, no, no.

26:42 It's It's [laughter] It's his medicine.

26:44 How do you feel about that?

26:45 Uh take the red pill.

26:49 [laughter] Take the brown pill.

26:51 With the rabbit droppings?

26:52 Okay, sorry, Sorry.

26:53 No, no, it's true.

26:54 No, you you You know what?

26:55 You're absolutely right.

26:56 Like I mean, we grew up we grew up in a kind

26:58 of like a weird kind of like uh we as I said,

27:01 we were kind of the weird kind of scumbag family

27:05 in the village that everyone would throw their kids at.

27:07 So, all the rich kids would hang out at our house and it was all loads of fun,

27:10 but I was raised by my elder brothers basically.

27:13 Mom and Dad were out Mom was a nurse, Dad was sold records.

27:16 Oh, really?

27:17 Yeah.

27:17 Mom was a nurse, yeah.

27:17 Yeah, yeah.

27:18 So, um Dad sold vinyl records on the markets

27:22 and always had loads of office jobs.

27:23 Mom was a nurse.

27:25 There was loads of us and it was sort of just like it felt fun

27:28 and naughty and life when it feels fun

27:30 and naughty is kind of always I don't know.

27:34 There was I suppose I didn't engage with like the gravitas of what I was doing.

27:39 I was lying in order to manipulate people's experiences,

27:41 but I was being paid to do that.

27:43 Yeah.

27:43 But it like it didn't seem that unusual,

27:46 but having worked in restaurants as well, I was like, this is crazy.

27:49 And I was like, because wait there,

27:51 I used to get told off if someone left a one-star review.

27:53 So, like I'm now in the the the the the the environment

27:58 is is is not trustworthy.

28:01 It's So, I suppose that stuck in my head and what made me think

28:04 think about this was when you guys

28:06 were talking about one-star reviewers, I actually So,

28:08 what happened was I started writing for I

28:11 did I did an internship at like websites,

28:13 music websites generally, started doing more gonzo journalism style stuff,

28:17 kind of weird music reviews, weird stuff like that.

28:20 And then eventually it led me to working with Vice and that was Mhm.

28:23 that that you remember Vice right there.

28:26 Yeah, [clears throat] yeah.

28:27 Um but like that that then changed my life

28:29 and then I started making a living doing it.

28:31 So, then it's like I'd write three or four things a a month,

28:34 different weird things and like one of the things I did on the journey to get

28:39 into the fake restaurant was I I

28:41 wrote a piece about um TripAdvisor's harshest reviewers.

28:44 Okay.

28:45 So, I took them out for for lunch.

28:47 I contacted them and said,

28:48 "I'd love to go to lunch." Cuz I wanted to understand the psychology of like,

28:52 why would you go to a restaurant and just leave a one-star review?

28:55 Like, you know, it's such a funny thing to do with your with your time.

28:58 Unless like you've been, you know, uppercutted by the waiter or whatever.

29:02 [laughter] It's such a weird thing to do with your time.

29:06 Well, that's your fault.

29:07 You're coming to Don't come to Uppercuts.

29:09 If [laughter] you don't want to get an uppercut.

29:12 They actually I forgot that.

29:16 [laughter] Special interest.

29:17 Uh but like, so yeah,

29:18 I took out these these It was actually three different guys.

29:21 I took them all out and I and I reviewed them.

29:24 So, I reviewed them like like a restaurant.

29:26 And I did that and all of them were

29:27 kind of very strange and quite evasive and complicated.

29:30 One of them was one of the funniest guys I've ever met in my life and he made

29:33 me take him to the the poshest restaurant in London

29:35 or one of them at the time, La Gavroche.

29:38 And he went through the whole meal and he was complaining the whole time.

29:40 It was like being with Larry David.

29:42 He was just the whole time being like, "Excuse me.

29:44 Is that actually a Oh, sniffing the wine, doubting the sommelier, you know.

29:50 [laughter] I'm a high bar for for shame for like shame, public shame.

29:53 But this guy was insane.

29:56 Um I mean, you just get this right about talk to us about.

29:58 But like, he was like he said to me,

30:00 he was like uh the whole time he complained and I was like,

30:03 "This guy is fascinating." And he was like, "You know,

30:05 the reason I do this is I I'm I'm like a He saw himself as some like vanguard.

30:10 I'm doing it for people.

30:11 Self-sacrifice.

30:12 I'm doing it." I'm holding the door.

30:14 And and uh and he said exactly.

30:16 At the end of the evening, I remember saying to him,

30:18 "So, what what do you think about La Gavroche?" And he said,

30:20 "Oh, it's it's one of the best restaurants in the world." I was like,

30:23 after spending two hours with him, I mean.

30:25 Him complaining through the whole meal.

30:26 insane.

30:27 And I was like, "How many stars?" He went, "Three."

30:31 [laughter] And that was it.

30:31 For the best restaurant in the Yeah, exactly.

30:34 So, so, so I'd been in those like that psychology

30:36 of reviewers and reviews was interesting to me and then

30:39 but then that while I was doing that, I started thinking

30:42 That was when the idea for the restaurant kind of came.

30:44 It all kind of fell together and I knew I had to write three to four

30:48 pieces for Vice a month and the Guardian I was writing for a little bit.

30:52 Um and it and yeah, I kind of found a style, luckily,

30:56 which was this kind of like uh um gonzo style social experiment-y style thing.

31:04 Did another thing where I I went door to door.

31:06 I pretended I was joining uh joining the Jehovah's Witnesses.

31:09 Oh, no.

31:10 And I went door door to door and and learned how they sell door to door.

31:14 How do How does that work?

31:15 Cuz I I don't I I don't know any of anybody who's opened the door.

31:19 Yeah.

31:20 Or like How does that work?

31:21 Well, well, they the numbers No, I don't.

31:25 I genuinely don't.

31:26 No, it's the right question because I was thinking the same thing.

31:29 That's why I got interested in it.

31:31 Cuz I'd been in a band and we'd failed and I

31:33 was like it must It's so hard to sell a CD.

31:35 It's like 2015-16 this was and I was like you can't No one will buy a CD.

31:40 What do people want to buy less than a CD?

31:42 A Jehovah's Witness at the door.

31:44 And I was like if I can compete with them, this is all over the place.

31:47 I'm sorry.

31:49 But but it's But basically what happened was

31:52 I I I then started going around with them

31:54 from door to door and building data and how

31:56 many people out of 100 doors would let me in.

31:58 Wait, where did you find Jehovah's Witnesses that were looking for No,

32:01 they found him, Eugene.

32:02 They found me.

32:06 [laughter] They saw They saw a lapsed Catholic and they thought [laughter]

32:12 opportunity.

32:12 What's that medicine in his pocket?

32:16 [laughter] Smells like Um but yeah,

32:19 it was just like this it was it was in I was in South London,

32:22 so there was loads of like, you know,

32:23 new churches and stuff like that around there.

32:26 Um it's very active religiously South London.

32:28 And um yeah, so it was like I I started going from door to door.

32:32 I went to these seminars they had where they would go they would be like,

32:35 "Okay." And they would do like a a role play like you're in a

32:38 Oh, so they teach you how to do it.

32:40 Oh.

32:40 And then they'd be like they'd they'd go like, "Okay, so role play now.

32:44 Pretend you're answering the door." So So I'm your it's your house.

32:48 Yeah.

32:49 Hello.

32:50 Oh, hello there.

32:51 Wait, you don't open your door.

32:53 Are you talking through the door?

32:54 Yeah, something Ring doorbell.

32:55 I just want to make sure.

32:56 Okay, sorry.

32:56 Go ahead.

32:57 Sorry.

32:57 This was before the ring.

32:59 Before ring.

32:59 This is before ring.

33:00 When your face was the camera.

33:01 Yeah, he's in the CDs.

33:02 [laughter] He's in the CDs.

33:05 Hello.

33:05 Hi there.

33:06 Would you like to learn about God?

33:08 What about him?

33:09 No, listen.

33:10 You need to learn about God.

33:12 Stop.

33:12 What went wrong there?

33:14 Um I'm still holding the door handle.

33:17 No, you [laughter]

33:18 you you you you were aggressive.

33:20 You were Yes, you were too aggressive.

33:22 Yeah, you were too aggressive.

33:23 Okay, great.

33:24 So how What could I have done differently?

33:26 I think what you could have done differently there is you could have

33:28 asked him maybe if he has troubles in his life or would he

33:32 like to learn about the love of Jesus or would he like

33:34 to learn about something good or you've got to offer him something, I think.

33:37 Fantastic.

33:38 So do you do you want to try a second attempt?

33:40 Do you want to try the second attempt?

33:42 You think you could do better?

33:43 I was watching No, I can't I don't know I don't think I can do better.

33:45 I was watching the situation.

33:46 No, no, no.

33:47 He thinks he can do better.

33:48 If he doesn't do this now, I'll be tortured with it the whole day.

33:51 Trevor.

33:52 No, I First I want to see a better version.

33:54 Okay, that's the thing.

33:55 He He He He went but I got excited about the idea of you doing it.

34:00 [laughter] That's how it should be.

34:03 This is how it should have gone.

34:04 you.

34:04 Okay.

34:05 Knock.

34:09 Hello.

34:10 Hello there.

34:10 What a lovely day.

34:11 How are you?

34:13 Would you like to hear Would you like

34:15 [laughter] to hear about the love of Jesus Christ?

34:18 How are you feeling today?

34:21 Yeah.

34:22 He loves me, too?

34:24 He definitely loves you.

34:25 Although I'm not wearing pants right now as I open the He loves that?

34:29 He's got a lot of space in his heart.

34:32 [laughter]

34:33 COME IN.

34:34 COME IN.

34:35 ALL RIGHT, SO THAT'S STUFF.

34:37 THAT'S FANTASTIC.

34:38 SO, that's basically what it was like.

34:39 The seminars are kind of [laughter] kind of like that with more nudity.

34:46 Don't go anywhere cuz we got more What Now after this.

34:53 You know what I love about spring?

34:54 Everything just feels fresh again.

34:57 [music] The weather shifts, people start going outside more,

34:59 and suddenly you feel like you should be eating

35:02 something that [music] didn't come out of a packet.

35:05 That's why I like going to Whole Foods Market this time of year.

35:08 Whole Foods Market is your go-to destination to celebrate

35:12 the fresh flavors of spring with seasonal produce at its juiciest,

35:16 plus limited-time flavors throughout the store.

35:20 This is the time to get together and share vibrant finds with your loved ones.

35:25 And you feel it as soon as you walk in.

35:27 You've got organic bagged salad kits,

35:29 fresh produce, potatoes, parsnips, radishes, spring onions,

35:34 artichokes, all the things that make you

35:36 feel like you've got your life together.

35:39 And then, of course, you go in for that, and you leave with things

35:42 you didn't plan for, like a peach apricot rose Italian soda,

35:47 or those 365 by Whole Foods Market strawberry

35:50 pretzels that somehow disappear before you even get home.

35:53 And if you're hosting,

35:54 or even just showing up somewhere trying to impress people,

35:57 the bakery has you covered.

35:58 The mango yuzu Chantilly cake, the strawberry shortcake,

36:02 these are the kind of desserts where people don't ask questions.

36:04 They just assume that you know what you're doing.

36:08 [music]

36:07 And the nice thing is,

36:08 there are deals throughout the store, especially on 365 brand items,

36:12 so you can feel responsible while [music] still treating yourself a little.

36:16 Because that's really what spring is about,

36:18 starting fresh and then [music] rewarding yourself immediately.

36:22 Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring and save at Whole Foods Market.

36:30 All right, Eugene.

36:32 [music] Let's play a little game.

36:32 You know, make something fun.

36:34 Two truths and a lie.

36:36 Here we go.

36:37 One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone.

36:42 Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock sock shoe shoe.

36:46 I do sock shoe sock shoe.

36:48 Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years.

36:52 What do you think?

36:53 Mhm, very confused.

36:55 First of all, why would a world leader own a fly?

36:58 Cuz those things just come uninvited.

36:59 Secondly, lying to your friend is not cool.

37:02 It's never been a game.

37:04 No, Eugene, a fly is for like the zip is what and then it's it's it's not a lie.

37:09 It's a game where I'm trying It's like I give you inform Okay, I lied.

37:14 All three are true, Eugene.

37:17 And in case you were thinking, you know,

37:19 Verizon isn't as expensive as you think.

37:20 In fact, if you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill,

37:24 they'll give you a better deal.

37:26 And the reason I've been with them

37:27 for this long is just because I travel so much.

37:30 I need a network that's reliable.

37:32 That's right.

37:32 A better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plan,

37:36 streaming, and phone deals.

37:38 Take your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local Verizon store today,

37:43 get your better deal, and start saving for real.

37:46 Based on Root Metrics best overall mobile network performance,

37:50 US second half 2025.

37:52 All rights reserved.

37:53 You must provide recent consumer mobile bill

37:55 in the name of the person redeeming the deal.

37:57 Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply.

38:02 So, do you understand how two truths and Do you understand it now?

38:05 I understand that you didn't have to lie

38:07 first before telling me that Verizon is the best.

38:09 No, I wasn't lying.

38:10 Eugene, it's not a lie.

38:11 I wouldn't lie to you.

38:12 It's a game.

38:14 Okay, I'm sorry.

38:15 I lied.

38:17 Ah.

38:19 [laughter] This is great because you're showing me how you know,

38:34 to pull off one of the greatest scams that's ever been pulled off,

38:37 you needed to have all the tools.

38:39 Yeah.

38:39 Right, the origin story.

38:40 So, you had it in your DNA, right?

38:43 You got the grandfather who's like literally the snake oil salesman, okay?

38:47 yeah.

38:47 You've got like your dad who who's a[ __] but just like in life

38:50 he's like he's cuz he's got it in in him, you know, okay?

38:53 You're the you're the runt of the litter,

38:54 so you're like, "How do I get attention?

38:55 How do I make my way?" All right, so you got this vibe.

38:58 Then you go to Jehovah's Witness training, ultimate sales camp.

39:03 [laughter] So, now you're learning how to

39:04 that that position how to sell people on a thing that they can't see and like

39:08 you just have to get them to believe in it and you know what I mean?

39:10 And and notoriously are not liked and you meet

39:13 the reviewers who teach you about reviewing and what review is.

39:16 So, you got all of these pieces.

39:18 And then you go, "O- okay, this is it.

39:20 Yeah.

39:21 I'm going to I'm going to launch my my fake restaurant.

39:26 Yes.

39:24 Yeah, so I I I I basically just kind of had an idea I I thought about

39:29 the platform that I knew that the reviews

39:31 were a lot of them could have been falsified.

39:33 It was very easy to falsify.

39:34 Wait, I have one question before you get into that though.

39:36 Yeah.

39:37 I don't understand how you put the restaurant on Trip Advisor.

39:40 Does nobody confirm these places exist or don't?

39:42 How does that work?

39:43 So, yeah, no, I I'll I'll tell you.

39:44 Well, basically like I looked into it, so the reviews are very easy to leave.

39:48 The accounts you can very easily and then the restaurants themselves

39:52 felt out it felt like something that would be impossible to falsify.

39:55 Yeah.

39:56 So, I kind of just like just started trying it out.

39:59 I was like, "Okay, so Okay, so went on it, created a restaurant on Trip Advisor.

40:04 What do I want as the name?

40:05 So, I was What did you call it?

40:07 I was living in a garden shed at the time at the back of someone's house.

40:10 So, I just moved to London and it was like the only place I could afford.

40:13 It was a 800 pounds a month,

40:15 which is still not that cheap, but anyway, whatever.

40:17 800 pounds a month.

40:19 Uh just just all all of it.

40:20 It's It's literally a [laughter] I I just Sorry.

40:26 Sorry.

40:27 I'm so No, it's good.

40:28 [laughter] It's good.

40:29 It's good.

40:30 It was a per person.

40:33 Oh, you're

40:36 [laughter] Nothing beats Yeah, that's all of that.

40:38 Yeah, that is absolutely hilarious, [laughter] isn't And uh yeah,

40:42 so I called it the shed at Dulwich.

40:43 I was living in a garden shed in in London at the time.

40:46 Yeah, genuinely.

40:48 Um you had you had to put like an address, so I just put the name of the road.

40:52 And it didn't didn't make you specify.

40:53 And I was like, "Well,

40:54 no one's going to know cuz I'm at the back as well." So, So, you've got cover.

40:58 Yeah, there's loads of people who Six people who lived in the house,

41:00 the main house, and then at the very back I was living in a garden shed.

41:04 Uh and then what else?

41:06 You needed like a mobile,

41:07 so I bought like a kind of drug dealer phone from I love it.

41:10 I love it.

41:10 I love it.

41:11 Yeah.

41:12 You need a website, and you need a email, that was easy to do.

41:16 And I made this website with the help of my mate,

41:18 so it was like all these photos on there that looked like gourmet food,

41:22 and it looked like Michelin star quality food,

41:24 but the images were actually like cropped versions of bigger images

41:29 that like 6 months later when this all went viral and came out,

41:32 I revealed was like one of the meals that looked

41:34 like a delicious meal was like an egg on my foot.

41:37 And like another [laughter] And another thing And another thing was like

41:44 all our lives?

41:46 [laughter] It was like, you know, these urinal cakes you get, and that was

41:50 Urinal.

41:50 Come on.

41:52 [laughter] Yeah.

41:51 Made that look like a pan-fried scallop.

41:54 And like had it with food like a Yeah, it does.

41:57 It does.

41:58 Put some honey on there.

42:00 Uh some stones from a fish tank.

42:02 And like that was genuinely It was like me and my mate Chris and shaving foam.

42:06 That was it.

42:06 So, sea foam like shaving foam.

42:09 It was me and my mate Chris who I'd been working with for Vice.

42:11 We used to have loads of fun doing these weird pieces.

42:13 And I was like, "Come over and do this thing.

42:15 It's not going to be paid." Cuz I was doing this on my own time.

42:17 Vice weren't even aware that I was doing this and for a while actually.

42:22 Um And yeah, that kind of we I sent all this stuff off to Tripadvisor.

42:26 The the kind of concept behind the restaurant

42:28 was like uh it was an appointment only restaurant.

42:30 Like you can only get a table if you were or you

42:32 have to apply and we'll like vet you and we'll see what happens.

42:35 Uh yeah, it was like yeah, that was kind of the concept.

42:39 The the meal the menu was like you order moods at the shed, not meals.

42:45 Like you have comfort or whatever and it's all like mood-based.

42:49 Uh which was just I was just trying

42:51 to think of wanky things that would like sound like

42:54 it is brilliant though because you know,

42:57 this is the weird thing about a scam is often

42:59 times a scam is more well-thought-out than a real thing.

43:03 Yeah.

43:03 Cuz I'm listening to this and I'm like,

43:05 I want to go to this restaurant even though I know it's a scam.

43:08 What would cuz think about how many times you go to a restaurant

43:11 and you like actually it's the mood that I'm looking for.

43:14 Not the food.

43:15 Like you can can I specify?

43:16 Yeah, I would like that actually.

43:18 Yeah, yeah.

43:19 Uh yeah, I mean I That's a genius idea.

43:21 Uh to be honest, though another one of the things I

43:23 was weirdly I haven't even thought about this in a while,

43:25 but like I was also doing little reviews for a for a like a a newsletter,

43:30 you know, like a what's new in London newsletter.

43:32 They would send me to restaurants so I was already

43:34 getting a bit of a seeing what it was like.

43:36 I remember going to this meal in um in London at this restaurant and it

43:40 was like they it was a it was small it was like a taster menu,

43:44 but it was like but it was like a 3D projection of like uh Marco Polo

43:49 like and it was so crap and it was just like so all about the song

43:55 and the dance and stuff and like the food

43:56 you're getting like this much like a a pea

43:59 every half an hour and then you're back

44:01 to watching Marco Polo dance around your plate.

44:03 Heston Blumenthal must never hear of you.

44:07 [laughter] I think we'd make money.

44:08 And uh and maybe a deposition.

44:13 [laughter]

44:12 But like yeah, it was just so so I I don't really

44:14 have that kind of like it was one of the many things I

44:18 was trying to do to make a living and writing these [clears throat]

44:20 food reviews and it was sort of like exposed me to the[ __] yeah.

44:23 And I was like Cuz so you just compounded all the[ __] on this thing.

44:26 You're like cuz one thing on top of this on top of this and top of this.

44:28 satire and you'll know this from doing the day show and everything is

44:31 like it any good sat it has to be monkey see monkey do.

44:34 It has to be it has to be [clears

44:36 throat] what's going on in out there in the world.

44:38 Like how do and how do we how do

44:39 we take that to its sort of illogical conclusion?

44:42 Like what Okay, there's this this Marco Polo restaurant.

44:45 Uh you know, it'd be even more interesting

44:48 if the the restaurant didn't exist at all.

44:50 But this is all I I had the privilege

44:52 now of thinking about this project like this.

44:54 At the time I was just sort of putting it together

44:56 and seeing what would work and expecting it to not work.

44:59 So like I sent all that off like all the all the idea of it,

45:02 the concept, all that.

45:04 Sent it off to TripAdvisor and expected it to not not work,

45:07 you know, to not go live.

45:09 But it it went live.

45:10 No vetting, no verification.

45:12 It's completely easy to do.

45:14 I was live on the website and that was when I was like, "Okay,

45:17 I suppose I'll try and get some reviews

45:19 for this now." So then I started contacting friends and family.

45:23 I hope you didn't call that other guy.

45:25 Which one?

45:26 You know, Mr.

45:27 Mr.

45:28 bad review guy.

45:29 Oh.

45:30 No, he needs to be kept away from.

45:33 [laughter] He needs to be kept away.

45:34 I think he's spiritually the opposite to this idea.

45:37 He sees it as his like great cause in like Uh he was a sweetheart,

45:43 but you know, horrendous to be around.

45:46 But he yeah, so I just started having people write these reviews

45:49 and I was getting family and friends roping them into it.

45:51 Implicating more people.

45:53 Nice, nicely done.

45:54 Nicely [laughter] done.

45:54 That's another part.

45:55 get co-conspirators.

45:57 But I was filming little bits, you know, cuz I was mainly writing at the time.

46:00 I wasn't doing documentaries yet.

46:02 I only went on to do those.

46:03 So, I just liked writing because it was really nice to write something.

46:07 It's just you It's your voice.

46:09 You have an editor.

46:10 You collaborate.

46:10 And that's it.

46:11 Whereas, when you're making TV, which I do now, there's 30,

46:15 40 of you, and that's great, but it's different, you know?

46:17 It's different.

46:18 Um so, everyone's jumping in.

46:20 Everyone's leaving these five star reviews.

46:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:22 We're going up the rankings.

46:24 Feels serene.

46:25 wait, wait, wait.

46:25 So, you start You start going up on the Trip Advisor rankings.

46:29 Is this that moment where you go like, "Oh,[ __] we're onto something." Yes.

46:32 Yeah, exactly.

46:33 It was It was We were number 18,000 out of 18,000 in London.

46:37 And then slowly it was like, you know,

46:39 within about six weeks we were up to number 1,400 or something like that.

46:44 And I was higher than my local restaurants

46:46 in Dulwich where I was living, and I was like,

46:48 "That's bizarre." And uh but it felt like nothing,

46:51 and then one day the phone that I'd bought for the The drug dealer phone.

46:55 The drug dealer phone calls,

46:56 and it's like an actual human on the other

46:58 end of the phone being like, "Oh, hello there.

47:01 I know uh I love the sound of your mood based meal.

47:04 Please, can I have an appointment this Friday or whatever?" And it was

47:08 the first time that's a real person started with parroting the mythology to me.

47:14 And um you know, I just said to them, "I'm sorry,

47:16 we're fully booked for the next six weeks." Put the phone down.

47:19 It always gets them.

47:22 [laughter] But yeah, I mean, it genuinely does.

47:23 It gets me.

47:24 Like, this is it.

47:25 It's like I could have easily been on the other end of that phone.

47:27 I'm not saying I'm better than that, you know what I all have that.

47:30 That's what I mean.

47:30 It's like it's so funny how that like it always doesn't matter who you are.

47:33 Yeah.

47:34 Fully booked for the When you find out the thing

47:36 you want is like has been overly wanted, and it's gone.

47:40 You can't Now you can't stop pining.

47:41 You can't stop thinking about it.

47:43 You know what I mean?

47:44 Yeah.

47:44 Fully booked for the next six weeks.

47:46 was like my mantra from then on.

47:47 Just kept on saying it.

47:48 Six weeks, six weeks, six weeks, six weeks, yeah, yeah, yeah.

47:51 Exactly.

47:51 And it was like, you know, started out cute, few calls a day.

47:54 I was getting emails.

47:55 Then it's just start to get Just keeps on going up and up and up.

47:58 And the people that you tell no to are

47:59 the ones who 100% will call back 10 times, you know?

48:02 And it's it was just the momentum just started gathering,

48:06 and that would been So, that that's like 4 months in.

48:09 Do you know what I mean?

48:09 That's like been going on for 4 months.

48:11 Slow drip of reviews cuz I'm doing it while

48:13 I'm having to make a living doing other things like

48:16 uh it's not like my mom and dad are paying for my rent and I can just sit down.

48:20 I'm working, and then I'm like, "Oh, I need to do I'm scamming." [laughter]

48:25 Scamming and scamming.

48:27 I like that.

48:28 But like, you know, it was like it it it it

48:32 just got more exciting the the more the more it went on.

48:34 Got more real.

48:35 People like the local council being like, "We want to relocate you to an an area

48:40 we're gentrifying at reduced rates and all this stuff." No way.

48:43 Come on.

48:45 People applying for jobs, things like that.

48:47 Like it was it was very it the plot it showed how

48:51 The government is reaching out to you.

48:54 Yeah.

48:53 And offering you tax incentives.

48:56 Yeah.

48:57 But you don't exist.

48:58 Yeah, I don't think I exist.

48:59 You Jake, can I tell you something?

49:01 You've exposed a lot about politics.

49:02 This is my thing.

49:03 and politicians This is this is what I mean about you, Ubers.

49:05 Like you I don't need I don't think you understand what an impact you've had

49:10 on my life from afar because you you

49:13 are the reason like Ryan who's like sitting here.

49:15 Like Ryan we we'll always like try find food

49:18 try find and Ryan's like a super foodie guy.

49:20 But one day randomly Ryan was like I've started doing

49:24 something crazy and I think it was like after this.

49:26 He's like we just go to a place.

49:29 Mhm.

49:30 We don't look at the reviews.

49:31 We don't even look a place we just go find a place near you.

49:34 Yeah, walk in and eat the food.

49:36 Yep.

49:37 And then afterwards look at the reviews.

49:40 Interesting.

49:40 You'll be shocked at how many times the review doesn't match up Yeah.

49:43 with how you felt about the experience.

49:45 Yeah.

49:46 Your personal experience.

49:47 Just your personal experience.

49:48 But a lot of that came from you because we were like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait.

49:52 If you can create a whole fake world of the best food,

49:56 then maybe there's also a fake world of the worst food.

49:58 Mhm.

49:59 Right.

49:59 Like maybe this place is getting[ __]

50:00 reviews because people just don't like its vibe,

50:02 they haven't got the mood right there.

50:04 Just just walk in and eat the food.

50:06 And then the second thing you did,

50:07 like and I didn't even know about the government side

50:10 of it is you just made me realize how much we all,

50:14 all of it, like you said, no one's sort of better,

50:16 how we all are so easily duped into accepting a version of reality Mhm.

50:24 that we like willingly, you know what I mean?

50:26 Like every The fact that the government contacted

50:29 you and wanted to give you tax incentives.

50:32 But had never been to the restaurant.

50:34 Yeah.

50:34 Never seen it.

50:35 Had never seen it, had never seen a tax return, had never seen nothing.

50:40 Not Then I'm like, how who else did they move there?

50:42 Yeah.

50:43 That's what I'm thinking.

50:44 Cuz you know sometimes you're in a neighborhood and then all

50:46 of a sudden there's random restaurants that pop up and you're like,

50:48 who how did these restaurants get here?

50:51 Yeah.

50:51 You know the first restaurants to move into a neighborhood.

50:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

50:54 And now it's just a bunch of Ubers, no offense.

50:58 [laughter] Taking chances.

51:00 All the other all the other Jehovah's Witnesses.

51:03 [laughter] So okay, so this thing So okay,

51:10 now you're at like the peak cuz I mean once the government's calling you,

51:13 it's it's it's on now.

51:14 Yeah, I mean I was getting called constantly and and what

51:17 the the clientele starts changing from like locals to then like tourists,

51:21 to then like uh influencers, uh different people from like kind of who are

51:26 high up professionals like having their teams reach out.

51:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:29 I'm calling on behalf of Yeah,

51:31 I mean I think I can say it now because uh I don't think they exist anymore.

51:34 But like Universal Studios wanted to bring their teams at their team over.

51:38 Hey.

51:38 Yeah, yeah, it was kind of I've never I've

51:40 actually never said that before, so there you go.

51:42 Uh and and it was like it yeah,

51:44 I it was fascinating having like it and and we weren't even number one by that.

51:49 We were getting into the top 50, you know,

51:51 it was like and and I think the thing is is

51:53 like you said earlier about we had loads and loads of reviews.

51:55 We actually didn't.

51:56 We had we just all of our reviews were five stars.

51:59 And it there was the way the algorithm

52:01 was functioning was like about almost like it

52:03 maybe it functioned like momentum because I was

52:06 doing it part-time until it started getting crazy.

52:08 I was like, "Okay, this is the best project ever.

52:11 I need to land the plane on this thing.

52:12 Who knows where it's going?" like, "I need to get into this restaurant."

52:17 [laughter] In six weeks.

52:17 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

52:20 Um yeah, and then it was just like one of those things

52:22 where uh I was in a meeting actually with Vice

52:25 as a we're talking about another project they wanted me

52:28 to do and my phone kept ringing and I was like,

52:30 "What the[ __] is going on?" And I was the lemon on them.

52:32 Yeah.

52:33 And I was like, "Well, actually,

52:35 I've been working on this other thing on the side." And they were like,

52:37 "Oh, wow, this sounds like a epic Yeah, this sounds amazing.

52:41 And I was like, "Well, I've been filming all my me taking all the calls.

52:43 I've been filming myself.

52:44 So, yeah, okay, it sounds good." And I wanted to write about it anyway,

52:49 but that that was the first time where I was like,

52:50 "Okay, maybe maybe I could do on camera stuff

52:53 as well." This could this feels like it could be that.

52:55 So, then they started I started thinking about how I wanted to what what next?

52:59 And I thought, "If I can get as many people

53:01 as possible to leave reviews in the next two weeks, maybe we'll make number one.

53:04 Maybe we'll maybe we'll do that." It's like a final push.

53:08 Then I started noticing things like people

53:10 were leaving reviews who had never been there, who who I didn't know.

53:14 Never been there.

53:15 Of course, they've never been there.

53:16 People from some I'm I'm bringing my own cooler

53:20 This is this is how big it is, guys.

53:22 Yeah, I know.

53:23 It's it's just yeah.

53:24 Do you have a table for two in the next six weeks?

53:27 [laughter] But like, yeah, there were people who were

53:31 leaving reviews who I didn't make leave the review.

53:33 So, it was almost like they said have the kudos of having been there.

53:36 Mhm.

53:36 Um and so, you know, I reviewed

53:38 were leaving five stars.

53:41 Yes.

53:40 Yes.

53:41 Exactly.

53:42 That's crazy, man.

53:43 We have we have a Now we've reached peak.

53:45 Yeah.

53:45 Yeah.

53:46 And it was uh yeah, that was sort of I think it was November 2017.

53:54 That was then.

53:55 And then we became yeah, the number one rated restaurant.

53:58 Congratulations, man.

53:59 Yeah.

54:00 It was it was crazy.

54:01 I was I was remember checking the thing cuz we'd gone up.

54:04 We were like top three and then we went down

54:05 to number eight and I was like, "Wow, what a story.

54:08 Top 10."

54:08 Were you upset about the number eight?

54:10 No, I was just like,

54:11 "This is insane." And then it was number one and I was like, were happy.

54:14 Then you popped.

54:15 It was just like

54:16 You're a local councilman.

54:19 [laughter] It's just like one of those moments where you know that your life's

54:23 changed and it's not cuz it's such an insane thing that would happen.

54:27 For it to happen was so crazy and so unlikely that I was like, "Oh, okay.

54:31 This is This is probably the craziest thing that's ever going to happen to me."

54:35 think you you had maybe a little bit of an impostor syndrome?

54:37 Like you felt like you didn't deserve to be there.

54:39 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

54:42 [laughter] You know what, You know what, Trevor?

54:48 [laughter] No, I did think No, I've worked hard to get here.

54:51 The [laughter] investment, the website, the burner phone.

54:55 I mean, YOU DID ALL THE WORK.

54:57 WELL, the funny [laughter] thing is is like No, go on.

54:59 Sorry.

55:00 No, no, no, so so now Tipsin.

55:01 So now now this this is what I love because

55:03 I remember seeing the footage of the people the the nights.

55:07 Yeah.

55:08 The night itself.

55:09 This was just like where I was like peak.

55:11 So So what is it supposed to be?

55:13 Opening night?

55:14 Yeah, well Yeah.

55:15 this is where you've changed another thing.

55:17 I'll tell you what I've changed in my life.

55:19 This literally happened because of you.

55:21 Really?

55:21 Literally because of you.

55:22 And then you'll tell the story of the night.

55:24 So

55:27 [laughter] when I order food now, especially like in New York,

55:28 but when I order food, I'll go to a restaurant.

55:31 Like I'll see any place, whatever it is.

55:33 Restaurant, strong to could take out, whatever it food is.

55:36 But now I cross-reference it with like an actual map.

55:40 So I'll go, you know, it'll be like Eugene's rabbit cakes.

55:45 Mhm.

55:45 And I'll be like, oh, this place looks good.

55:47 But then I go to Google Maps or whatever.

55:50 And you look

55:51 And then I look for The address of rabbit cakes.

55:53 Yeah.

55:54 And then if I You know, on the little street thing, I'll zoom in.

55:59 And I want to see this place exists.

56:01 Yeah.

56:01 So you do a 360 Yo.

56:02 Yo.

56:02 Yo.

56:03 Let me tell you something.

56:04 Try it.

56:05 You're going to see how many times the place doesn't exist.

56:07 It's It's that's true.

56:08 You are going to see does.

56:10 Yo.

56:10 You're going to see how many times urine cakes all over again?

56:12 My friend, the place doesn't exist.

56:16 Now apparently they came up with a term they call it ghost kitchens.

56:19 Yeah.

56:19 Yeah.

56:19 Yeah.

56:19 Yeah.

56:20 you told me something about doesn't exist.

56:22 But the food does.

56:23 Even Even in South Africa, Johannesburg now, it's started as well.

56:26 Yeah.

56:26 I'll be like, oh, this place looks good.

56:27 The food looks good.

56:28 That's the main thing.

56:29 It's got good reviews.

56:30 And then I go, but where is this?

56:32 I'm like, I don't I've never seen this place.

56:33 Yeah.

56:33 And then I look nowhere.

56:35 And they also they do this thing as well.

56:37 They have three different names for the same menu.

56:39 Yeah.

56:39 Yeah.

56:39 Yeah.

56:40 They'll be like, oh, you know, they'll try something.

56:42 They'll get the like Zuma, whatever, girls.

56:45 And then they'll something get millennial guys.

56:47 Whatever.

56:47 They'll have different marketing schemes and Same with the same thing.

56:50 Same place.

56:51 Same menu.

56:51 Yeah.

56:52 Yeah.

56:52 Yeah.

56:53 Same place.

56:54 And all of this changed because of what you did.

56:56 So tell us about the night.

56:57 Cuz Cuz now you you took it like I mean you went fully into this thing.

57:03 Because The reviews is like, all right, whatever.

57:05 But then you you're like,

57:06 I'm going to make a real night and people are going to come to it.

57:09 Yeah.

57:09 It was I mean, I lived in it.

57:11 It was like a pretty much a[ __] And uh it was,

57:14 you know, it was Which was number one?

57:16 It was number [laughter] one.

57:17 It was number one.

57:19 And it was, you know, it didn't look like the best restaurant in London.

57:21 It looked like just a shack.

57:24 Um and uh I kind of thought, you know,

57:27 I'd done so much and I'd proven this big point about

57:30 online reviewing and like this platform was able to be manipulated.

57:33 Wow, crazy.

57:35 All these people want this thing,

57:36 but there's almost like the the the most crazy thing would be to now try and get

57:41 away with opening it for one night only

57:44 and serving sort of real customers real food.

57:47 Yes.

57:47 So we, you know, had a plan.

57:49 It was all just based around um trying to control the environment,

57:54 but also So I basically had I had eight real customers come in.

57:58 I had a table of two who had two locals who'd

58:00 been trying to get a table for three or four months.

58:03 Had a table of four who were from a big fashion

58:05 agency who who I actually still can't mention because they were happy.

58:09 And then uh [laughter] Try having shaving foam on your wedding old cake.

58:15 If you'll be happy.

58:16 That sounds like a Balenciaga picture.

58:19 [laughter]

58:21 Uh it's not them.

58:21 Uh but uh and then we had a we

58:24 had a uh two um American newlyweds from from California.

58:29 Aw.

58:29 I know.

58:30 I know.

58:30 I know.

58:30 I know.

58:31 But they were they were like, "Oh, you know,

58:33 they've been in they've been in Paris eating

58:35 on the banks of the Seine the night before."

58:37 And then yeah, they were they were the the final table of two.

58:41 They were going to be eating at the shed.

58:43 So it's quite hard to like I want to like

58:45 just try and capture this in like the best way possible.

58:49 It was November.

58:50 It was basically yeah, it was basically seven it was eight years ago.

58:53 This is so[ __] crazy.

58:55 Um and it was cold.

58:57 It was kind of wet.

58:58 So I borrowed all of these heaters from my neighbors.

59:01 I went around asking to one of them to borrow these for the night.

59:03 Got them a bottle of wine.

59:04 Uh I borrowed a my friend ran a cafe around the corner,

59:07 so I borrowed a load of the tables and the chairs.

59:09 Uh and then I had half of the people

59:12 who were eating there were um my friends who were

59:15 pretending to uh that everything I I served them was

59:18 delicious and that they'd been loads of times completely normal.

59:21 Uh one of my friends actually she who now people

59:24 might know her, but uh Lolly Adefope she's in like Shrill.

59:27 She's in Ghosts, she's in um she was in the new Amandla Stenberg,

59:30 she's she's so funny.

59:32 But like the time she wasn't that famous and she was one

59:34 of the like local celebrities who I had like she was she was uh Yeah,

59:38 she's one of the patrons and uh It was yeah, the plan for them was to try

59:43 and create the same psychological space as Trip Advisor.

59:46 You know, you have people around you saying something's great or that deny

59:49 you your own senses or that deny you your own you know,

59:53 and it I hired this animal handler as well.

59:56 So we had all these chickens running around and the idea was that the the I

1:00:01 mean we never actually did this, but the idea

1:00:03 was that we said to all the customers,

1:00:04 you know, this is like lobsters at a fancy restaurant.

1:00:07 Like you can you can pick a chicken

1:00:10 and have it and you kill it live and Exactly.

1:00:13 But the whole point and I had a table of two two of my mates eating

1:00:16 on the roof on a table which looked

1:00:17 like bizarre it looked something from a cartoon.

1:00:20 But it was the whole thing was like I was trying to short-circuit their brain

1:00:22 as much as possible to try and make

1:00:25 them not engage with the reality of the situation.

1:00:27 Yeah, I was like what what what's the I was trying, yeah.

1:00:31 So the way I did it as well is I met

1:00:32 them on the street and blindfolded them and walked them two

1:00:36 or three minutes down and then down this garden path because

1:00:39 I genuinely thought if they'd have seen the front of the house [laughter]

1:00:41 and they'd see it they and and we had a Oh my god,

1:00:44 it's all coming back to me now I'm talking about it.

1:00:46 We had a We had a DJ playing the sound of a real restaurant as well.

1:00:51 And he he had a and he had a little sample pad

1:00:54 that when he pressed it it was the ding of a microwave.

1:00:57 And the reason was because the food we

1:00:59 were serving on the night was actually just

1:01:01 microwaveable TV dinners but made like ready meals

1:01:04 but made to look like Michelin quality food.

1:01:07 So we put like edible flowers, micro herbs on it.

1:01:10 Um And yeah, I mean it was like it Basically we we opened

1:01:16 for about 3 hours trying to think of like a way of encapsulating the vibe.

1:01:21 It was It was It was weird.

1:01:24 Um and I'll I'll focus on the newlyweds,

1:01:27 the the ones who were on their honeymoon.

1:01:29 Uh because we I remember they did they looked

1:01:32 kind of like uh they kind of slightly confused.

1:01:36 But uh I like came I brought them out there like them

1:01:39 their meal which was comfort and it was like mac and cheese basically,

1:01:43 but made to look like fancy mac and cheese.

1:01:45 And I like uh my friend Phoebe who now weirdly again she writes on a Ted Lasso.

1:01:51 Uh Not anymore.

1:01:53 I like [laughter]

1:01:54 I like I like that it's like a super I really do like

1:01:56 that you created a from this moment it's like a you know spin-off.

1:02:00 Yeah, it's like an Ocean's Eleven that then everyone [laughter]

1:02:01 went off to do their own thing now in the world.

1:02:03 Yeah, yeah, because at the time it was like yeah.

1:02:07 I don't even know.

1:02:07 We were just like I we were like this isn't going to work.

1:02:10 Um yeah, and she she was like put it down.

1:02:13 She was like namaste and then she

1:02:15 like she disappeared to part of the restaurant.

1:02:19 And we were watching watching [clears throat] them

1:02:21 on in the in the late I remember looking at the lady.

1:02:23 So she's like this she's the new the the bride.

1:02:26 Yeah.

1:02:26 And she looks at the food and she was saying before she's a foodie,

1:02:29 she loves restaurants, she loves eating and all this stuff.

1:02:32 She looks at the mac and cheese through a a phone.

1:02:35 And like pauses for a second we're all just watching

1:02:37 her and then she just puts it away without taking a photo.

1:02:40 That's funny.

1:02:41 And it was like I we I was thinking that you know,

1:02:45 this isn't people aren't buying this.

1:02:47 The jig is up.

1:02:48 Mhm.

1:02:48 Um and it was actually one of the table of four

1:02:50 I was seeing them out at the end of the night.

1:02:52 We can you can ask more questions.

1:02:53 It's just this is how this this is all this all coming to me.

1:02:56 Um yeah, and the guy like uh he would look he like didn't

1:03:01 look happy and he put me to one side and he was like,

1:03:04 "So that about tonight um now that we've been once,

1:03:08 is it going to be easier for us to book again next time?" Which is like yeah,

1:03:14 it was that was like How was that?

1:03:17 Yeah, the big moment that made me think, you know.

1:03:19 Made you deserve number one.

1:03:21 No, it just made me think that we trust like

1:03:22 online hype more than what we put in our mouths.

1:03:24 Well, I trust all hype.

1:03:26 Yeah.

1:03:26 It's like we trust I mean Yeah,

1:03:29 that that whole You know what here's what I what I loved about

1:03:33 the scam is you didn't make me feel like any of those people were idiots.

1:03:39 Mhm.

1:03:40 Yeah.

1:03:40 Do you know what I mean?

1:03:41 So even when you watch the footage

1:03:42 when you see what's happening I genuinely didn't think to myself "Ha,

1:03:45 what a bunch of idiots." No,

1:03:46 it made me go we take for granted how easily we all are manipulated.

1:03:53 We also take for granted how we think of what is and what isn't in society.

1:03:57 Mhm.

1:03:57 Yeah.

1:03:58 And and we're all just you know what I mean?

1:04:01 We're Yeah.

1:04:02 But but I you can take it to you can extrapolate it to everything.

1:04:05 So politics is is a simple example.

1:04:08 You know, people will go "Oh yeah, this politician is really good,

1:04:11 really smart." And then if somebody says it around you,

1:04:14 then do you think that now?

1:04:16 Or do you not think that the comments that you see on your social media?

1:04:20 What are they making you think or not make you think?

1:04:23 So when you go down like you know how sometimes I don't know if you've

1:04:27 ever done this I'll watch a video or I'll see a post or you know,

1:04:32 whatever it is and I started saying to myself I don't know where this came from.

1:04:36 I started going "What do you think about this?" before I went to the comments.

1:04:40 Mhm.

1:04:41 Because I I realized at some point I was clicking on videos or posts and then I

1:04:47 would read the comments and I realized the comments

1:04:49 were slowly shaping what I was thinking about it.

1:04:52 100%.

1:04:52 Yeah, definitely.

1:04:53 So I would watch a video that I would think is

1:04:54 funny and then I'll go into the comments and people like disgusting.

1:04:57 I can't believe that this is not then I'll be like yeah,

1:05:00 man, that that's wasn't nice.

1:05:02 I'll watch another video and people you know, I'd be like oh man,

1:05:04 that's I'll be like that's cool and people would like this is so lame.

1:05:07 This is but I'll be like yeah, that is lame.

1:05:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:05:11 But you you don't realize how you how it's actually happening to you.

1:05:14 Do you know what I mean?

1:05:14 I think I think there're very few

1:05:15 people There's obviously people on the fringes,

1:05:17 but I'm sure like most people don't realize that this is happening to them.

1:05:21 Like you're saying the the yum around you.

1:05:23 Yeah.

1:05:24 You sit at a restaurant.

1:05:26 Yep.

1:05:26 The person next to you is like Mhm.

1:05:28 Oh my Oh my god.

1:05:30 And you're like, "What are What are they Oh, that looks good.

1:05:33 What are they [laughter] having?" You lean in and you're like,

1:05:35 "Hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey." "Excuse me, what I'm that guy, yeah.

1:05:39 the restaurant.

1:05:40 If I'm undecided, I look at what looks good

1:05:42 from other people's um table and I'll be like,

1:05:44 "What What are they having?" But also realize that if you watch on YouTube,

1:05:48 if something is happening live and the comments are live as well,

1:05:51 reading the comments while you're watching the content

1:05:54 makes you realize we're not watching the same thing.

1:05:57 Because also their comments are influenced by where they find themselves.

1:06:00 Some people are watching from work,

1:06:02 some people are just catching the tail end of it,

1:06:04 some people have been watching, they're fatigued,

1:06:06 and then you're watching it going,

1:06:07 "That comment that you just made is totally unrelated to what's

1:06:11 happening now." But everyone else who comments after it is like,

1:06:14 "Yeah, you must be right." Although we're

1:06:16 using fake names when you're making comments, our opinions are real.

1:06:21 But they're not factual.

1:06:22 Then it gets interesting around how many I mean,

1:06:24 I mentioned this slightly earlier and it's 100% true

1:06:26 how many bots are now used on social media.

1:06:30 Isn't it Isn't it like 40% now?

1:06:32 Is it 40 or I don't know the number, but it's every It's a shocking number.

1:06:36 I remember reading the other day that about 40%

1:06:40 of all internet like comments and activity is bot.

1:06:47 And that How can that not shape your reality?

1:06:50 If [clears throat] like my one review

1:06:52 for the Greek restaurant in whatever, Peckham,

1:06:55 can influence people's minds and my mind,

1:06:58 then like how can [clears throat] that not?

1:06:59 40% of everything we're reading is It's Did you see that the other day where

1:07:03 they changed the They very briefly changed

1:07:05 the Twitter or X I'm not calling it X,

1:07:08 Twitter policy so that where you could see where the account was based.

1:07:12 Hm.

1:07:13 You see this?

1:07:14 I did not see this.

1:07:14 It was interesting, and loads of quite prominent

1:07:18 noisy accounts were all just based in India.

1:07:21 And they were saying, you know, I'm based in the US,

1:07:24 or I'm in No, no, no, and then they changed it back.

1:07:26 Oh, they put it back immediately.

1:07:28 And it was it was it was really interesting.

1:07:31 Uh and I think basically India,

1:07:32 the significance of that is a load of the a load of the farms are in India.

1:07:36 Um so it's cheap, you know,

1:07:37 loads of online labor is based out in India, isn't it?

1:07:41 Um fascinating, absolutely fascinating.

1:07:44 So I was I mean, I just thought, well, there's bigger and better scams to come.

1:07:48 No, I didn't think that.

1:07:50 [laughter] No, no, I I I No, I didn't think that.

1:07:51 I believed you.

1:07:52 No, no.

1:07:53 No, but but but but you're right about that.

1:07:55 And you know what This is what I what I think about

1:07:57 is like in society we struggle with certain paradigms because you know,

1:08:05 they they're not they're not physical, they're not easy to touch,

1:08:07 they're not Like I let's say we found out and I I mean,

1:08:12 we still don't really do much about

1:08:13 this, but if we found out that certain people,

1:08:17 companies, actors, whatever were poisoning 40% of our water.

1:08:21 Yeah.

1:08:22 Hm.

1:08:23 We would act a certain way, and we would think a certain way, right?

1:08:26 For the most part, yeah.

1:08:27 People start putting regulations into effect, they go, "Oh,

1:08:30 you're not allowed to do this, you're not allowed

1:08:31 to do that." If we found out that people,

1:08:35 companies, actors, what were poisoning 40% of our air Yeah.

1:08:38 we would start acting, we would start You know what I mean?

1:08:40 And I know there's outliers, and people are like, "Oh,

1:08:41 but there's companies are polluting." That's part of the problem.

1:08:45 But we don't think about that when it comes to our minds.

1:08:48 Yeah.

1:08:48 We don't think about about it when it comes to this thing that we can never see,

1:08:52 and yet is almost more important than everything else in the world.

1:08:56 Yeah.

1:08:56 Yeah.

1:08:56 Your children are online.

1:08:58 Hm.

1:08:59 40% [snorts] of the stuff that they're consuming is poisoned.

1:09:02 Mhm.

1:09:03 And I'm not saying the stuff that comes from other people.

1:09:05 I'm just saying like fake completely poisoned stuff is going into their heads.

1:09:09 So, your little daughter's on the phone, Mhm.

1:09:11 40% of the[ __] that's coming to her is poisoned.

1:09:13 Your little son is on the 40%.

1:09:15 Your grandmother is on the Your grandfather, your uncle, your aunt,

1:09:18 you like 40% of the things you're consuming are poisoned.

1:09:23 Mhm.

1:09:23 And yet we don't think like that for instance

1:09:26 should just be like a rule in a way.

1:09:29 You can be anonymous,

1:09:30 but the way you where you're posting from should have to be

1:09:33 Absolutely.

1:09:33 Yeah.

1:09:34 But I always think it's going to be the human weakness for the longest time.

1:09:38 Any dilution to any poison is just adding the human element.

1:09:41 What do you mean?

1:09:41 Oh.

1:09:42 selling something dangerous, as long as you put someone in there,

1:09:44 that's why they had to put regulation for advertising with cigarettes.

1:09:47 People were having such a good time smoking.

1:09:50 Yeah.

1:09:50 Then it was the same.

1:09:51 Main state was just like the rest of your life.

1:09:55 [laughter] Then people were just having a good time.

1:09:58 The Marlboro Man.

1:09:59 Yeah.

1:09:59 All of this stuff.

1:10:00 It was Once you put the human element, the danger,

1:10:03 the poison gets diluted because you think this person is doing it,

1:10:07 I could be doing it.

1:10:07 I could be having a good time as well.

1:10:09 And I think the scourge or the opposite

1:10:11 of what we're feeling with bots is influencers.

1:10:15 So, the bots can do exactly what the influencers can do.

1:10:17 But once you put a human in it, is it really that bad?

1:10:20 Because also I've seen the trend now the content

1:10:23 that influencers are taking is not taken by the influencers anymore.

1:10:26 It's more stylized.

1:10:27 Now it's more cinematic.

1:10:28 They're actually featuring in the ad where they were

1:10:30 supposed to be doing it from their point of view.

1:10:32 So, now you see all of them.

1:10:34 Whereas before you used to see their hands

1:10:35 and their feet and them interacting with the product.

1:10:37 Yeah.

1:10:37 Yeah.

1:10:38 But now I'm like, who's the other person operating the camera?

1:10:40 of the product.

1:10:41 has become so great.

1:10:42 And then these apps I saw one It's funny you say that.

1:10:45 Sorry to interrupt you.

1:10:46 So, I saw a video the other day um about this it it was just so good, man.

1:10:53 There was a a video and And it starts so sad.

1:10:56 It's this it's this TikTok.

1:10:58 And it's this woman and she's by her bed and you know that the caption reads

1:11:03 that you know the thing and and you know that voice comes on and it's like,

1:11:05 "Why why you choose that person in your life?"

1:11:09 Yeah.

1:11:08 You know that voice?

1:11:09 You know the voice.

1:11:10 Do you know you know that personally, do you?

1:11:11 No, but it's the [laughter]

1:11:14 But you know that voice.

1:11:16 But you know that voice.

1:11:17 CUZ THERE'S ONLY LIKE THE TWO There's the two voices, right?

1:11:19 There's the one that's like, "When I found out I was going to" It's that voice.

1:11:23 The AI one.

1:11:24 Yeah, that whatever voice.

1:11:24 voices and then there's the other one that's like,

1:11:26 "These men were fighting their way out of the plan." Yeah.

1:11:29 But this one [laughter] was like And you know that voice.

1:11:33 I love that voice.

1:11:34 of them.

1:11:34 But who the[ __] THEY WERE BOTS.

1:11:37 [laughter] IT'D BE SO FUNNY IF THEY WERE REAL PEOPLE SOMEWHERE.

1:11:40 You know there's there's somebody like at a restaurant and they're like,

1:11:42 "I called for a table for two." [laughter]

1:11:45 "Could you tell me what time my reservation

1:11:47 will be ready?" So like and in the video

1:11:53 there's this woman and she's by her bed and the caption reads um like,

1:11:57 "Be careful who you choose as your partner because they

1:11:59 will need to be with you in the toughest times,

1:12:01 blah blah." And she's like, "This is the day I found out my dad

1:12:04 died or the moment I found out" something like that.

1:12:06 And the you you see her like she's like crying by the bed and then

1:12:10 her husband comes in and like looks at her and then she like sort of tells him,

1:12:13 "Oh, I just found out my dad died." And he you can see he's like,

1:12:16 "No." And then the video and he embraces

1:12:18 her and it's it's sad and it's beautiful.

1:12:20 And then it jump cuts to some guy who's like, "Okay, okay, hold on.

1:12:23 Hold on." He's like, "Who put the camera there?" He's like, "Who?" Mhm.

1:12:29 "Yeah.

1:12:30 Who was filming this?

1:12:31 Did you put a tripod?" "Did he start filming?"

1:12:35 Yeah.

1:12:35 "What cuz you found out your dad died Mhm.

1:12:37 in this moment.

1:12:38 This You're saying that you found out in this moment.

1:12:41 Mhm.

1:12:41 So when did he How did this And he

1:12:45 was just punk like he was just puncturing this world.

1:12:48 This This thing you're talking about.

1:12:50 Yeah.

1:12:50 Yeah.

1:12:50 Where like influencers now to your point,

1:12:54 the way influencers sort of started off

1:12:55 started off was from a very authentic place.

1:12:58 Hey guys, so I went to this place today.

1:13:00 Like you said, point of view and vibe.

1:13:02 And then they became like a part of it.

1:13:05 Yep.

1:13:05 And then they started synthesizing things and then you run

1:13:07 out of content so you got to like make the content.

1:13:10 Now you have to suffer tragedies, you have to discover things,

1:13:14 you have to fight, you have Do you know what I mean?

1:13:16 And so sorry, go You get what I'm saying?

1:13:18 think that's what I'm talking about.

1:13:19 I think um And the whole point was that it was democratized, right?

1:13:23 That was the whole thing.

1:13:24 It was like, "Okay, anyone you know,

1:13:26 I can just do whatever." Now it's like Now it's almost

1:13:29 like every single member of the public views themselves as an influencer.

1:13:32 Oh, that's fully what it is.

1:13:33 Absolutely.

1:13:34 And and then there's a There's these people above who get you know,

1:13:37 who get paid money to do who actually get still get money from brands.

1:13:41 And also it's sold as almost autonomy

1:13:43 of some sort because you can name your price.

1:13:45 You can do it your way, but we'll obviously have the last say of how it's done.

1:13:49 And then you can just put it out there

1:13:50 and you have no control of it from then onwards.

1:13:53 Yeah.

1:13:53 Cuz that's what happens with influencers.

1:13:54 But when I realized what Ring doorbell

1:13:57 was because it's not popular in South Africa, but it's popular here.

1:14:00 Yeah.

1:14:00 I was thinking to myself there's only two ways that they can sell this thing.

1:14:03 It's either by fear, break-ins, Yeah.

1:14:05 how it can prevent a break-in and people And they started

1:14:07 with the ads like that when people were shouting, "We're home!

1:14:09 We're home!" You know?

1:14:10 Yeah, yeah.

1:14:11 And but then I realized their other strategy

1:14:14 was um Amazon packages being stolen from the door.

1:14:17 Yeah.

1:14:19 Right.

1:14:19 And then all of a sudden Two steps running away.

1:14:21 Yeah, yeah.

1:14:22 And people started finding that funny and they thought, "Well,

1:14:24 if I have a package that gets delivered and I

1:14:26 want to make sure that Then I think to myself,

1:14:29 this These people are actors.

1:14:33 Cuz the package is always explode before they get to where they're going.

1:14:36 No one ever gets out of shot.

1:14:38 You mean the when they fill it with like confetti?

1:14:40 Exactly.

1:14:40 No, no, with paint.

1:14:41 Paint, paint.

1:14:42 Yeah, yeah.

1:14:42 Yeah, yeah.

1:14:43 But no one has ever gotten inside the car and the thing

1:14:45 ex- because that would have been funny and genuine at the same time.

1:14:48 Right.

1:14:48 But everyone is "We we we." Then I'm like,

1:14:51 "Oh, there's one way to solve this thing." Yes.

1:14:54 And the packages are unmarked.

1:14:55 Who gets an unmarked package delivered to their door?

1:14:58 But even just the pumping of viral content from from did Ring doorbells

1:15:03 that his package is being stolen is an amazing advert for a Ring doorbell.

1:15:07 You're so right.

1:15:08 I've never even thought about that.

1:15:09 That sucks.

1:15:10 God.

1:15:12 Yeah.

1:15:12 Have I punctured your reality?

1:15:14 I I mean, you constantly You are a puncture in my reality.

1:15:19 [laughter] That's I mean, come on.

1:15:20 I'll drink to that.

1:15:21 Yes.

1:15:21 No, it's just It's like [laughter]

1:15:24 I Yeah, I Because I Because I understand that you know,

1:15:30 living life is the paradox of what is and what isn't all the time.

1:15:34 So, I don't ever want to be one of those people who goes, "Nothing's real.

1:15:39 Everything's fake." Mhm.

1:15:40 Yeah.

1:15:40 Because most things are sort of fake, and that's a good thing.

1:15:44 Yeah.

1:15:45 Like like our names are all fake.

1:15:46 We respond to them, but that's not a thing really.

1:15:49 You know what I mean?

1:15:50 Yeah.

1:15:51 So, there's certain constructs that society has to agree on for things

1:15:55 to Like a traffic light I'm always fascinated by traffic lights.

1:15:57 Yeah.

1:15:58 Cuz I go like it's just a color.

1:15:59 I really I don't know.

1:16:01 I swear on my life.

1:16:01 I don't know why I get I like get giggly.

1:16:05 [laughter]

1:16:04 When I'm at a traffic light, and then I go, "Guys, this is not real." Yeah.

1:16:07 Yeah.

1:16:08 It's It's like it really makes me happy when I see people stop or go.

1:16:12 Cuz I'm just like I'm like, "Yo, it's Do you want to be People REALLY STOP.

1:16:17 YEAH.

1:16:17 LIKE WHEN I see a car screech to a halt.

1:16:20 Yeah.

1:16:20 Cuz they're like, "Ah, the light." You just ruined that for me.

1:16:22 That's Yeah, but I'm like, but I'll never see the same again.

1:16:25 [laughter] No, so so but society needs these things.

1:16:27 Mhm.

1:16:28 Acceptable absurdity.

1:16:29 Yes.

1:16:29 Society functionally needs artificial constructs for us to function.

1:16:36 Language, religion, culture, all of these things.

1:16:40 it uh There's that book that Harold Garfinkel book,

1:16:42 in the '60s where he uh something Studies of Ethnomethodology

1:16:45 or something like that where he uh he had a lot reading books in the '60s.

1:16:49 You're going to have to you're going to have to go with you.

1:16:51 He he No, no, no, he's exactly what you're talking about.

1:16:53 He's basically he he's a I I I find academic writing often

1:16:57 really bad and really hard to get into because it's just so dense.

1:17:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:17:01 A lot of academics can't write and they kind

1:17:02 of hide hide behind language to cover it up.

1:17:04 But What were we saying this shots fired What were we saying this yesterday?

1:17:08 You know, and that's not their job.

1:17:09 No, no.

1:17:09 be an academic.

1:17:10 But you know what I mean?

1:17:11 It's like when I've got like you know,

1:17:13 you have writers who then read all that and then

1:17:15 make it like something I want to read.

1:17:16 But anyway, there's this book that he wrote,

1:17:18 this Harold Garfinkel guy, I think that's his name.

1:17:20 So he um and he just had a lot of his students doing loads

1:17:22 of really absurd things that subvert I think it was in New York maybe

1:17:27 uh subvert the um just like things like the rules of waiting in line

1:17:31 or going into a restaurant and I can't There's so many they're very funny.

1:17:36 They're very funny, but now I think uh ethically slightly

1:17:39 dubious like I think as an academic to do them.

1:17:42 But like yeah, I think that there was I think you would might you might like it.

1:17:46 I'll check it out.

1:17:46 Because it's just like it's it's they're they're just they're just very funny.

1:17:50 It's funny.

1:17:51 It's like oh

1:17:52 Which just breaks how you how you think reality is supposed to work.

1:17:55 all right, loads of students.

1:17:56 He's going to get all of his students to wait at the same set of traffic lights.

1:17:59 And the whole day they're going to cross on the red on when it is don't cross.

1:18:02 That that would be like an experiment he might do.

1:18:04 That's like an example that And then you

1:18:06 see what happens to the people around them.

1:18:07 Yeah, exactly.

1:18:08 That's it.

1:18:08 It's the impact on the people around.

1:18:09 where the tipping point is if one person crosses at a red light

1:18:12 to follow or not?

1:18:13 No one will.

1:18:14 Two people, no one.

1:18:16 Three, and then you get to a tipping point where

1:18:18 like the group does it and you see a person go,

1:18:21 "Oh, I guess that's what we do." And they

1:18:22 just like they just waddle across with you.

1:18:24 Yeah, yeah.

1:18:25 And if you all turn and go like, "What are you doing?" THEY'LL BE LIKE, "AH!"

1:18:29 [laughter] BUT IT BUT IT DON'T DO THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF TRAFFIC.

1:18:30 NO, BUT IT I I DON'T KNOW, MAN.

1:18:32 I just I just think like Yeah,

1:18:35 I think like the reality that we accept or the reality that causes us to fight,

1:18:39 the reality that causes us to hate other people,

1:18:41 the reality that causes us to think the way we think is so fragile.

1:18:45 Yeah.

1:18:45 Yeah, definitely.

1:18:48 Don't press anything.

1:18:49 [music] We've got more What now?

1:18:51 After this.

1:18:59 I did another I did another so I made

1:19:01 a film a couple of years ago with Channel 4, which is like part of the BBC.

1:19:04 It's like a It was all about Amazon cuz you mentioned Amazon Ring doorbell.

1:19:07 Oh, the urine?

1:19:08 Yeah.

1:19:09 Oh, I love this one, man.

1:19:10 Tell me about [laughter] it.

1:19:11 This the urine I'll give you the backstory and then you you got to tell the So,

1:19:15 remember a story came out about Amazon workers

1:19:19 being so pressed in their environments in the warehouses.

1:19:23 Everything in their environment was timed.

1:19:26 Their their performance was measured.

1:19:28 They're tracked across the floor.

1:19:30 Some of the worst like working conditions in that way, right?

1:19:33 And because they weren't unionized, no one could do anything about this.

1:19:35 It's a whole thing.

1:19:36 Modern day sweatshop.

1:19:37 Yeah, basically.

1:19:37 And like one of the worst things about the story was the drivers

1:19:41 and the workers in the warehouse would talk

1:19:43 about how their time was so you know,

1:19:47 like it would it was just like like in a draconian

1:19:49 way measured to the to the finest degree Mhm.

1:19:53 that they couldn't even risk going to the to the toilets.

1:19:56 They couldn't go to the bathroom.

1:19:57 So, what they would do Yeah, what they would do is in the truck

1:20:00 in the way out they would just pee into a bottle.

1:20:02 Exactly, yeah.

1:20:03 And then just carry on working.

1:20:04 They no one would leave.

1:20:05 No one would So, yes, modern day sweatshop.

1:20:07 And then the story like blew up and I was like the Amazon workers

1:20:09 are peeing into the bottles or And then Amazon was like nah, come on.

1:20:13 Yeah, we did.

1:20:14 We did.

1:20:14 Yeah, we did.

1:20:15 And it was we were just like what the what the hell What did Amazon say?

1:20:18 Like the cost of What does Amazon ever say?

1:20:20 Do you know what I mean?

1:20:21 Come on.

1:20:21 What does These people they've never come out

1:20:23 and be like yeah, we make them pee.

1:20:25 I mean, you know [laughter] how it is, bro.

1:20:27 Yeah, hopefully That's the business.

1:20:28 No, but like really.

1:20:30 I wish one day a company would do that.

1:20:31 Be like yeah, and then what?

1:20:33 We made them pee in bottles.

1:20:34 Then what?

1:20:34 your package?

1:20:35 Yeah, you get your package.

1:20:36 Man, shut the You know No, but [laughter] they don't.

1:20:38 They don't dust it with a finger print.

1:20:39 Yeah.

1:20:42 Um They But they But they didn't They They basically And they were like, "Oh,

1:20:45 we're looking into the But it's not what you This is No, this is fabricated.

1:20:48 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But anyway, so that was the story.

1:20:50 Yeah.

1:20:51 I now hand over to my my my favorite scam artist in the world.

1:20:56 So, I did the So, basically I Yeah,

1:20:58 I did this film a hour-long special about Amazon a few years ago or 2 years ago.

1:21:02 And uh it um one of the things I did

1:21:05 is I went and worked in one of the warehouses,

1:21:07 which is near where I grew up in But But Fakenham is one one of the got the job?

1:21:11 I got a job.

1:21:12 Uh I worked there undercover and I had a camera on.

1:21:15 But how?

1:21:16 You see, you I need you to explain these things.

1:21:19 This is Can you stop WITH THE HOW ALREADY?

1:21:24 [laughter] YOU EVER HAD BLUE eyes and blonde hair?

1:21:26 True.

1:21:27 THAT WAS TRUE.

1:21:29 [laughter]

1:21:31 IT'S TRUE.

1:21:32 He's the one that told me and I [laughter] will never understand.

1:21:36 Cuz can I tell you what's funny about Uber's stories is

1:21:38 in Uber's stories he gets a job as part of a scam.

1:21:43 He's like, "Then there's someone else like, 'I just want the job.'" [laughter]

1:21:47 JUST HOW DID YOU GET the job?

1:21:48 Uber is the reason why Uber is the reason

1:21:51 why Idris Elba will never be James Bond.

1:21:55 [laughter] It never just work anywhere.

1:21:57 Cuz he's white.

1:21:58 Oh god.

1:21:59 Cuz TV like Oh man.

1:22:00 Are you white?

1:22:01 Yes.

1:22:01 Oh god.

1:22:02 Okay, then.

1:22:03 But you see, you You know what I like about you?

1:22:04 You're using your privilege, my friend.

1:22:06 You [laughter] see this Cuz these experiments,

1:22:07 we can't be Eugene and I can't be messing around now.

1:22:10 No.

1:22:10 Like, we We would go to an Amazon factory.

1:22:12 We'd be like, "I'm undercover." And then 50 years later,

1:22:15 we'd still be there packing.

1:22:17 [laughter]

1:22:17 You got YOU'D BE LIKE, "WHAT HAPPENED, EUGENE?

1:22:19 WHAT HAPPENED, TREVOR?" "I WORK HERE, MAN." YOU'D BE LIKE, "YOU CAN LEAVE.

1:22:22 YOU CAME on a It was a scam." "No, man.

1:22:24 Jeff's not going to be happy if we don't get [laughter] these packages.

1:22:27 Hold on.

1:22:34 It's true.

1:22:36 [laughter] It's true.

1:22:36 It's true.

1:22:37 No, you're absolutely right.

1:22:38 Like you're absolutely right.

1:22:39 Remember when I first started doing stuff with Vice

1:22:40 and cuz I grew up somewhere that was 100% white basically.

1:22:43 And the Beckenham was 100% white.

1:22:45 Come on.

1:22:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:22:46 Come on.

1:22:46 Come on.

1:22:47 like, you know, about half an hour away in in in Redditch,

1:22:50 she uses the bloke Well, that's not even half an hour.

1:22:52 20 minutes away in Redditch.

1:22:53 Really close to where we grew up.

1:22:55 We didn't I didn't have a car growing up.

1:22:56 We just I just in the village is like,

1:22:58 you know, there's a big South Asian diaspora.

1:23:00 Like and traditionally there was a there was a Caribbean diaspora as well,

1:23:04 but it's sort of lessened over the years.

1:23:05 More in Birmingham.

1:23:06 Um and uh it was interesting having that experience of having um of having

1:23:13 my white privilege called out for the first times in the comments and stuff.

1:23:17 And having grown up with as white but without money,

1:23:21 I was like, "My privilege?" But That Can I tell you that?

1:23:24 up working.

1:23:25 Yeah, yeah.

1:23:25 but I was working.

1:23:26 And now and and particularly since I've moved here, I'm like, "Oh,

1:23:29 no." Like I've had to obviously completely be educated in that by by friends,

1:23:34 you know, and and I just trying to get my head around that.

1:23:37 Um but yeah, it's massive and I was an idiot

1:23:39 for I wished I was taught about that in school.

1:23:42 Yeah, but here's here's the thing that's complicated about it.

1:23:45 I'm not an academic, but I fight with academics about this all the time.

1:23:49 I think some of these concepts,

1:23:51 while true, are not explained correctly to people.

1:23:55 Yeah.

1:23:55 You know what I mean?

1:23:56 So, I remember when people would talk like,

1:23:58 you know, cuz some of these things become you know,

1:24:00 in vogue in moments, you know,

1:24:02 like so white privilege there was it really had its moment.

1:24:05 Check your privilege.

1:24:06 Check it at the door.

1:24:07 Post your black square.

1:24:09 Yeah, yeah.

1:24:09 Oh, you post [laughter] that black square.

1:24:11 You know what I mean?

1:24:13 So, And leave a review.

1:24:17 [laughter]

1:24:16 black square Yeah, five stars.

1:24:18 Jerk chicken, fantastic.

1:24:24 [laughter] Exactly.

1:24:24 The guy Curry goat.

1:24:26 Yeah.

1:24:26 And I got curry goat.

1:24:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:24:28 They got They got on the fish and chips, one star.

1:24:33 [laughter] The um Yeah, yeah.

1:24:33 The food was terrible, but I understand why.

1:24:36 Five [laughter] stars.

1:24:38 No, so here's here's So here's what This is just my opinion,

1:24:41 but I mean a lot of these things are even the academic ones.

1:24:44 Even And that's maybe my first issue, by the way.

1:24:46 Is that a lot of the time academics

1:24:48 will make it seem like it isn't their opinion.

1:24:51 They distance themselves.

1:24:53 You see what I'm saying?

1:24:54 Yeah, from from So they they'll they'll put forth an idea.

1:24:57 Yes.

1:24:57 And they work in a space where they study and they would Research.

1:25:00 Yes, their favorite word.

1:25:01 Yes, yes, but it is an opinion.

1:25:03 Yes.

1:25:04 Right?

1:25:04 It is an opinion.

1:25:05 It may be an opinion that holds true for the most part,

1:25:07 but it is still an opinion.

1:25:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:25:10 So, the argument I would have with people is this.

1:25:13 You may be right.

1:25:15 You may be wrong, but you also have to acknowledge

1:25:17 the way you're explaining this to somebody is isn't correct, right?

1:25:21 Because you make it seem like it's a hard and fast rule that is

1:25:24 constant in every single environment in the exact same way all the time.

1:25:27 Okay.

1:25:28 So when people were like, "White privilege, check your privilege,

1:25:30 white When I would talk to white people and who would go The The thing

1:25:34 that I saw was people struggling with this There

1:25:35 were people who were like, "I'm poor.

1:25:37 I'm homeless.

1:25:38 I'm strugg Where's the privilege?

1:25:41 Right.

1:25:41 Please, can you help me figure out where cuz I would like to access it?

1:25:45 I would love to access this privilege.

1:25:48 And the best analogy I came up with was golf.

1:25:54 Golf is one of my favorite like ideas for a sport.

1:26:01 Because even though golf is the most, you know what I mean?

1:26:04 Like It's the most like removed It's like This is like elite.

1:26:09 You've just described that sport.

1:26:11 You don't grow up on a council estate playing golf.

1:26:13 Yeah, because because it's like cricket in India.

1:26:15 Yeah, that's why it's Yeah, the home because of the home of it.

1:26:18 Exactly.

1:26:18 Whereas cricket in England's posh down properly posh and like

1:26:21 and I don't know about South Africa I'm assuming.

1:26:23 No, yeah it's like cricket schools are the one of the best schools.

1:26:25 Yeah, but cricket itself though in the townships they play it as well.

1:26:28 Do you know what I mean?

1:26:29 Yeah, not as much anymore but

1:26:31 Yeah, we have a huge South Asian diaspora in England.

1:26:34 No South well very few South Asian Asian players play for England.

1:26:37 It's kind of insane.

1:26:39 It's all posh private school.

1:26:40 Oh yeah, I mean but that's who you know where you know.

1:26:43 No, but it's just weird isn't it?

1:26:44 Cuz football has become democratic cuz you like you know it's

1:26:47 it's I think it kind of always has been to be

1:26:49 honest but football is democratic whereas it's interesting that like

1:26:53 these old school sports like cricket we're on a different thing now.

1:26:56 Go ahead.

1:26:56 No, no, no just like it's interesting the way I always

1:26:59 look when I'm watching cricket as a as a fan and I'm

1:27:02 like new new players come through great and I go and I

1:27:04 I do this every time Wikipedia what school for[ __] sake.

1:27:07 It's always like the top I just want him to not be going to a posh school.

1:27:12 I just want him to go to go to a normal school.

1:27:14 Normal school they made it.

1:27:15 Just a normal state school.

1:27:17 Oh man.

1:27:17 Go normal state school.

1:27:19 That's all I want.

1:27:20 So wait all the English cricket players are like Most of them.

1:27:23 It's about but then the the really great ones are always

1:27:26 not posh kids but This is my this is now coming

1:27:29 in my coming in my like uh My this is that that's

1:27:33 the thing where I mean this is a classic isn't it?

1:27:35 But we're obsessed with class in England it's it's different.

1:27:38 But you see now that comes back to what we're saying about privilege.

1:27:40 The loop of privilege is this.

1:27:43 When you go white privilege.

1:27:46 If you're not careful you make people think

1:27:49 that that privilege attached to your whiteness is a constant thing.

1:27:53 Whereas you see like in golf they go to your handicap.

1:27:56 It's a very simple principle.

1:27:58 It means at your current position in the game this is how much

1:28:02 we need to adjust the game so that you have a fair chance.

1:28:05 But that handicap can change.

1:28:06 It can go down and it can go up.

1:28:08 All right?

1:28:09 So if you get good enough we're not going

1:28:11 to give you any advantage but if you get bad enough,

1:28:13 we're going to give you as much as much advantage as you need.

1:28:15 But they acknowledge that the handicap

1:28:17 can change and I think that's interesting.

1:28:18 The variable, yeah.

1:28:19 So it's not because I don't like that we make these things

1:28:21 seem permanent and constant regardless of the situation you're in because

1:28:26 class and there was a there's a a writer I wish

1:28:28 I could remember her name was one of the most brilliant writers.

1:28:32 We'll just put her on the screen while I'm saying this.

1:28:34 Her name is Renee Eddo-Lodge.

1:28:36 Maybe, maybe, but she she said something about she said the phrase

1:28:39 and I'll paraphrase what she said about the US and many places.

1:28:42 She said, "I can't wait for America to finish the conversations about race

1:28:49 so that they can understand that they're just at the bottom of discussing class.

1:28:54 Yeah.

1:28:54 Because race is a proxy for class for most people.

1:28:57 Mhm.

1:28:58 Yeah.

1:28:58 You know what I mean?

1:28:58 It's shorthand for class.

1:28:59 It is shorthand.

1:29:00 So it's like yes, black attached to being poor.

1:29:04 Poverty.

1:29:04 Yes, but it it does not mean that black

1:29:06 itself will always be the thing that suffers.

1:29:08 It means that poor will always be the thing that suffers.

1:29:11 Yeah.

1:29:11 Yeah, I would say that just having an accent

1:29:13 I have a subtle accent but I've lost it the more time I've spent in London

1:29:17 and the more time spent nine years in London.

1:29:18 I've been here for two years.

1:29:20 Um but like uh it's interesting um just

1:29:25 to how obviously here it's like you know, I'm just an English guy.

1:29:29 Yeah.

1:29:29 And a white English guy, but I'm an English guy.

1:29:31 yeah.

1:29:31 But it's like in England, you know,

1:29:33 you you're you're always where what class you grew up with.

1:29:36 You know what I mean?

1:29:37 It doesn't matter how much money you have really.

1:29:39 I can assume even like the way you say class, I'm sure people are like mhm.

1:29:43 [laughter]

1:29:43 Mhm.

1:29:43 Are you sure you can afford this?

1:29:44 Yeah, right.

1:29:45 Like yeah.

1:29:46 No, it's true though.

1:29:47 Yeah, but you're you're either part you're either

1:29:48 part of the I mean you like you know,

1:29:50 you're either part of the the say 4% of the population in the UK go

1:29:53 to private school and they they represent most

1:29:57 of the executive positions in all the companies.

1:30:00 Yeah.

1:30:00 And now they're getting into entertainment which is fantastic as well.

1:30:04 [laughter] Love it.

1:30:04 Let's keep Let's have that.

1:30:05 That's fantastic.

1:30:07 Uh but like you know,

1:30:08 you're either want to So basically it's like and then they have

1:30:10 you have hereditary positions of in the government the House of Lords.

1:30:13 You have a lordships that you can inherit all that stuff.

1:30:16 So we still have like a proper proper

1:30:18 classes ruling class proper ruling And [snorts] that's like um I

1:30:23 probably English people watching this now would be like[ __] you

1:30:26 you know whatever it's changed or whatever but I don't think

1:30:28 it has and I think that like It will never change.

1:30:31 here is it's crazy how it's a different system as as you

1:30:34 said race plays a much much much bigger part of it.

1:30:38 You said race is a proxy for Yeah but yeah but I would argue in the US what

1:30:42 happens is money becomes the class like so So

1:30:47 what happens is yes race is a big one.

1:30:52 But then one of the tools that can help you is money and not

1:30:56 and not necessarily the position of it

1:30:58 but the access that it gives you to things.

1:31:00 So if you if you are in the business class lounge

1:31:04 right there's going to be an element but still your race might

1:31:07 be the difference where like let's say you walk ahead of me

1:31:09 into the business class lounge you'll just you might just walk in.

1:31:12 And then when I walk in someone will go excuse me are you business class?

1:31:17 You know what I mean?

1:31:18 Now but now because of maybe fame someone be like oh of course Mr.

1:31:21 Noah come in.

1:31:22 Like recently when when we were in Australia this was so

1:31:24 funny cuz here's here's my thing I I wasn't in Australia.

1:31:27 Yeah he he wasn't as in We so me and the crew in Australia The royal

1:31:31 we The royal we I was I was there by myself.

1:31:36 [laughter]

1:31:36 No so we were we were in we were in Australia and I was on tour there.

1:31:40 And there's moments where I think you know what I'm saying.

1:31:45 There's certain racisms or whatever you want to call it prejudice

1:31:48 or where you just have to laugh at it and poke it.

1:31:52 So we're standing in and it's very distinct.

1:31:56 We're flying Qantas Airlines that's really how

1:31:59 you get around Australia in that way.

1:32:01 Yeah.

1:32:01 And I think we're flying out of Perth.

1:32:04 And it's myself and my two friends from South Africa.

1:32:08 So, it's me, Ryan, S'bo.

1:32:10 So, here we are.

1:32:12 And we we're standing together in this line.

1:32:15 And then the promoter, [clears throat] Sebastian, he's with us.

1:32:17 So, Sebastian's the only white guy.

1:32:19 All right.

1:32:19 So, we're all there together.

1:32:20 But, we're together in the line.

1:32:22 Mhm.

1:32:24 Airport's basically empty.

1:32:26 We're in the business class line.

1:32:28 Right?

1:32:30 Confidently in that line.

1:32:31 It's clearly marked and we're in it.

1:32:33 Do you have the business class line cockiness of headphones?

1:32:36 No, not even.

1:32:38 I'm just We're just there.

1:32:40 Okay.

1:32:39 Away suitcase.

1:32:40 Yeah, away [laughter] The cockiness of business class.

1:32:44 One of one of the employees comes over.

1:32:46 She walks up to us.

1:32:50 Walks past Sebastian.

1:32:52 That was the key thing.

1:32:52 Walks past Sebastian, who's like in front of us.

1:32:56 Says nothing to him.

1:32:57 Comes straight to me and then goes, she's like, "Oh, excuse me.

1:33:02 Oh, this is the business class line." Oh, god.

1:33:06 Yeah.

1:33:06 And then I said, "Yes.

1:33:07 Yes, it is." And then she just stared at me cuz now

1:33:13 she was hoping that I would now do the whole like, "Oh, sorry.

1:33:16 I'm not in" But, I was I was just enjoying it so much.

1:33:19 I was like I was like, "Yeah." And then the way I said it I was I was like,

1:33:21 "Yes, this is the business class line." [laughter]

1:33:24 And then she went Picked the wrong guy "Are you

1:33:28 Are you in business class?" And then I was like,

1:33:31 "Why else would I be standing in this line?" Who's asking?

1:33:35 Then she's like, "Oh, all right.

1:33:38 I just was I wasn't sure if you were in business class." Then I was like,

1:33:41 "I don't know if this guy's in business class.

1:33:43 Let's ask [laughter] him." And I pointed.

1:33:43 But, she didn't know that I knew Sebastian.

1:33:45 Yeah.

1:33:45 Yeah.

1:33:45 Yeah.

1:33:46 So, I'm just pointing at this random white guy.

1:33:48 Then I was like, "I don't know if he's in business class.

1:33:50 Yo, are you in business class?

1:33:51 This is a business class line." [laughter] And then she's like, "OH, YEAH.

1:33:54 I'M SURE he's in business class." And I was like, "Well,

1:33:56 I'm I'm not in business class." And then you could see she just like she

1:33:59 had this moment where she was like So those are moments where I go Yes,

1:34:04 you know your money may be a favor It happens in your building all the time.

1:34:09 My man, all these things all the time.

1:34:13 But yes, but what I mean No, no, for sure for sure for sure.

1:34:18 That's that's But that's what I mean is like I feel like what

1:34:21 we don't do enough of is the handicapper analogy is really is really good.

1:34:26 Yeah, we don't we don't we don't we don't discuss these things dynamically.

1:34:29 And then and then we live in a world where and maybe the bots don't help, right?

1:34:33 Is that we don't get into a position where

1:34:35 we can then discuss it as people and say Okay,

1:34:38 so when does this happen and when doesn't it happen

1:34:40 and how does it happen because otherwise you're just going like,

1:34:43 "Hey man, white guy, you're a superhero.

1:34:45 Nothing can go wrong in your life." And then white guy goes,

1:34:48 "Well, a lot of[ __] I I don't have a job.

1:34:50 I'm living in my mom's basement.

1:34:52 Do you know what I'm saying?

1:34:53 Yeah.

1:34:54 Times are tough.

1:34:56 [laughter] Times are tough.

1:35:04 [laughter] [laughter] That's really good.

1:35:11 Then So now we we we're like You know what I mean?

1:35:14 And and and so So what I what I This is

1:35:16 part of what I like about your work is sometimes I

1:35:19 think as people the the academic discussion of ideas limits us

1:35:27 because it it it's like how do we see the world?

1:35:30 How do we think we see the world?

1:35:31 How do we want to be seen to be seeing the world?

1:35:33 How do people see us seeing the world?

1:35:34 How do they respond to how we see the world?

1:35:36 How do we see them seeing It's too much.

1:35:38 It's too much.

1:35:39 But then when you conduct it as like a just

1:35:40 an experiment as a thing that people do, you just do it.

1:35:44 Yeah.

1:35:45 Yeah.

1:35:46 It it it First of all, I feel like it removes the lens.

1:35:50 So we're watching people leave fake reviews

1:35:53 or write fake or come to a fake restaurant.

1:35:55 We're watching We're watching people You know what I mean?

1:35:58 So, like your your Amazon thing, which I want you to talk about because

1:36:00 it's it's it's sort of goes into this world.

1:36:04 Yeah.

1:36:05 It's one thing to write an article about, "Hey guys,

1:36:09 Amazon doesn't really do a good job

1:36:11 of protecting you as a consumer, as a customer.

1:36:14 They They're really unscrupulous.

1:36:15 Yes, they're convenient.

1:36:16 Yes, they're great.

1:36:17 Yeah.

1:36:17 But, you know, at the same time we have to ask

1:36:19 ourselves If these people You can go into that foreverness.

1:36:23 Or, you can just sell urine on Amazon.

1:36:27 But, but I think that sell Amazon workers' urine on Amazon.

1:36:31 And prove that it exists.

1:36:32 Yeah, but and and it it makes such a Yeah.

1:36:35 Sometimes I feel like the, you know, It's It's trying to Yeah,

1:36:39 all [clears throat] it's trying to do is it's sort of trying to figure out

1:36:42 like what is a It's essentially like that same thing of like what is a symbol

1:36:46 or a Often in like in in the world like the stuff that catches on and the stuff

1:36:51 that actually starts changing people's minds or something

1:36:53 is like just a really simple symbol.

1:36:56 Yes.

1:36:56 Like something I I remember when This is

1:36:59 a an example you guys won't won't know, probably.

1:37:02 Well, I guess we're black.

1:37:05 [laughter] I'm sorry, I I'm sorry, I I I just had And you were waiting.

1:37:10 I WASN'T WAITING.

1:37:11 YOU HAD THAT IN THE CHAMBER.

1:37:12 You were like, [laughter] You were like, "Oh, yeah." There we go.

1:37:16 I got you, little Uber boy.

1:37:18 I got you.

1:37:19 Any move.

1:37:21 [laughter] You know what?

1:37:21 You were waiting.

1:37:22 he says Next THING HE SAYS BECAUSE I'M BLACK.

1:37:24 YOU COULD HAVE SAID ANYTHING.

1:37:27 [laughter] ANYTHING.

1:37:26 ANYTHING.

1:37:27 ANYTHING.

1:37:27 ANYTHING.

1:37:28 You could have said that.

1:37:29 And if Eugene was ready with the Yeah, yeah.

1:37:31 Ready with the table.

1:37:34 [laughter] Yeah, Eugene was ready with YOU.

1:37:34 THE BLASTER.

1:37:36 YEAH, EUGENE WAS READY WITH YOU.

1:37:40 [laughter] OH, MAN.

1:37:41 I had a great time with YOU GUYS.

1:37:42 BECAUSE I'M BLACK.

1:37:45 [laughter] OH, MAN.

1:37:45 I DIDN'T THINK HE WAS GOING TO SAY THAT.

1:37:47 OH, MAN.

1:37:49 I surprise myself sometimes.

1:37:51 [laughter] No, there was a guy There was this There

1:37:52 was a politician when we when we anyway, whatever.

1:37:54 He was a Labour politician.

1:37:55 He was a guy called Ed Miliband.

1:37:56 He I remember Ed Miliband.

1:37:58 Yeah.

1:37:59 His whole thing he looked like he was going to become the Prime Minister.

1:38:02 This was like, you know, after 5 years of like bad conservatives and Lib Dems.

1:38:07 And he ate a bacon sandwich badly.

1:38:10 And then it was like it was all It was done.

1:38:11 It was done.

1:38:12 And it was almost like that encapsulated he

1:38:14 was this out of touch, you know, whatever.

1:38:17 And it was like, you know, the Sun that printed it, which is a like,

1:38:20 you know, rag that Rupert Murdoch Rupert Murdoch is a uh runs [snorts]

1:38:25 One of those conservative tabloid, yeah.

1:38:27 Yeah.

1:38:27 And yeah, he printed like a picture of him eating a bacon

1:38:31 he's been struggling with a bacon sandwich and it was kind of over.

1:38:33 It was It was bizarre.

1:38:34 I remember that was stuck in my head.

1:38:36 It was like there's a million examples of that if

1:38:38 you like you're probably sitting and thinking of one.

1:38:40 Uh there was one where Mini Mike was one that Trump did to Bloomberg.

1:38:44 They just killed it.

1:38:45 Yeah, that one destroyed it.

1:38:46 Yeah.

1:38:46 But there's also one where uh who who eats

1:38:48 the pizza with a knife and fork in New York?

1:38:51 They were running for president.

1:38:53 Was it Was it Mitt Romney?

1:38:54 Maybe it was.

1:38:55 I don't know who it was.

1:38:55 over just like that.

1:38:56 Pizza Pizza Have you ever seen the ad but this is a completely off topic.

1:39:00 Have you ever seen the advert where Trump eats the pizza backwards?

1:39:03 It's insane.

1:39:04 Can I tell you that's why I think Trump doesn't eat anything in public anymore.

1:39:09 But he eats it eats it backwards.

1:39:11 This I'm going to go look at this now because I insane the pizza advert now.

1:39:19 [laughter] I actually didn't think of that.

1:39:20 Thank you.

1:39:20 We're not the BBC here.

1:39:22 I actually need to see this.

1:39:23 We're free free wheeling.

1:39:24 I need to see this.

1:39:26 It's very bizarre.

1:39:27 You know what what sucks though is like now in like a few years

1:39:30 all of these things will become boring cuz people like oh that's probably AI.

1:39:33 Uh images uh yeah.

1:39:35 Yeah, you're right.

1:39:35 losing that now.

1:39:36 Yeah.

1:39:37 Um Should I backwards Should I carry on with piss?

1:39:41 Yeah, tell us the Tell us Tell us how you sold urine.

1:39:45 segue.

1:39:47 [laughter] While he While he While he pulls it up.

1:39:50 Yeah.

1:39:49 I'll I'll Tell him cuz he knows the story.

1:39:51 I don't know.

1:39:52 I'll help your appetite.

1:39:55 [laughter] While I prepare the pizza.

1:39:57 While the backwards pizza is in [laughter] the oven.

1:39:59 I'll prepare you a an an aperitif.

1:40:04 Yeah.

1:40:04 [laughter] I love that word.

1:40:06 Yeah.

1:40:06 Aperitif.

1:40:07 Yeah.

1:40:08 Sounds better than palate cleanser.

1:40:09 Yeah, there there it is.

1:40:10 sounds like mouthwash.

1:40:11 I feel I I hope I haven't got this wrong.

1:40:14 There it is.

1:40:14 Wow.

1:40:15 This is crazy.

1:40:15 It's an interesting image.

1:40:18 Yeah, look at that.

1:40:19 He He He survived it.

1:40:20 It almost helped him.

1:40:22 Yeah.

1:40:23 Eee.

1:40:25 [laughter] That's what he says before he eats pizza.

1:40:28 I love pizza so much.

1:40:31 Give me my slice.

1:40:33 [laughter] It's funny, man.

1:40:34 Is that how they do it in Queens?

1:40:36 I mean This is [laughter] Yeah.

1:40:37 This is a person who's probably never eaten

1:40:39 pizza or like just lived in another world.

1:40:42 And he's like, "Yeah,