American Royalty: Kennedys to Kardashians | It's Been A Minute

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0:19 I want to start off with like some free association, okay?

0:23 When Americans broadly think of the Kardashian-Jenner family,

0:28 what words do you think come to mind?

0:30 Cultural appropriation, smart business women, the devil works hard,

0:33 Kris Jenner works harder, memes, internet culture, beauty culture.

0:38 They are a multi-genre, multi-industry family full of associations,

0:42 [music] and I think that's by design.

0:45 I wonder what words come to mind do you

0:46 think when many Americans [music] think about the Kennedy family?

0:50 Democratic, glamorous, Camelot, conspiracy theory, Marilyn Monroe, and dynasty.

1:02 Dynasty, beauty, and drama.

1:04 Oh my.

1:06 I've been thinking a [music] lot about

1:07 the overlap between the Kardashians and the Kennedys.

1:10 Their ambition, their media savvy, and their power.

1:14 And before you get up in arms about comparing [music] the Kardashians

1:17 to the closest thing we've ever had

1:20 to an American royal family, I've invited M.J.

1:23 Corey, author of Deconstructing the Kardashians,

1:26 onto the show to get into what the surprising and kind of shocking similarities

1:31 between these two American dynasties say about

1:34 what it means to be an [music] American.

1:36 M.J., welcome back to It's Been a Minute.

1:39 Thank you so much for having me again.

1:40 [music] You believed in me from the beginning.

1:41 You had me on in the early days of this project.

1:44 I remember like asking if you were going to [laughter]

1:47 do a book, and you were like, "Watch this space." And now here we are,

1:51 and I have like a galley of the book in my hand,

1:54 and I'm so glad to have you here.

1:59 Hello, hello.

2:00 I'm Britney Loose and you're listening [music] to It's Been a Minute from NPR,

2:04 a show about what's going on in culture

2:06 and why it doesn't happen [music] by accident.

2:16 I think a lot of people think of the Kardashians as kind of like,

2:21 you know, possibly kind of tacky new money

2:23 group of people with a completely fabricated appeal.

2:28 People also like I mean conversely consider

2:30 like the Kennedy family like as American

2:34 royalty like whose influence was earned organically

2:37 through public service and like considerable wealth.

2:41 But in your book you argue that that reading

2:44 of the Kennedys is not quite accurate or like

2:47 you argue that these families are not as different

2:49 I think as a lot of people want to think.

2:52 Tell me about that.

2:53 Yes.

2:54 So one of the things that I found really interesting about comparing

2:56 the Kardashians to the Kennedys is that they both embrace new mediums.

2:59 So Kris Jenner herself has said it

3:01 that the Kardashians came up at the rise of Twitter

3:04 and Instagram and the Kardashians knew how to make

3:06 the most of those forms by posting selfies,

3:08 making it really relatable and interpersonal

3:10 with their audiences and JFK also did this.

3:13 He came up at the rise of TV.

3:15 By the '50s more than half of American families

3:19 had televisions in their living rooms and he knew how

3:22 to make the most of that personal medium by looking

3:25 directly at the camera when he had numerous TV spots.

3:28 He welcomed cameras into his living room with Jackie and his family and I

3:32 kind of compare the way he would look directly at the camera during debates

3:35 to make the American audiences feel like he was sharing his ideas directly

3:40 with them with the way the Kardashians

3:41 make use of confessionals on their TV shows.

3:43 So JFK and the Kardashians were both very good at their the uses of the mediums

3:48 that they came on to, but they also operated as a family in similar ways.

3:53 JFK comes from a dynasty and the Kardashians as we know

3:57 and I think now see them as a huge American dynasty.

4:00 No, I mean you're absolutely right and like I

4:01 mean even just like the size of each family.

4:04 I hadn't considered it in that same way,

4:06 but even the size of each family is kind of a strategy of sorts.

4:09 Totally, totally.

4:11 When JFK was running for president,

4:12 his main competitor in the Democratic Party complained that this shouldn't

4:16 be a popularity contest and part of his issue

4:18 was that the Kennedys were able to deploy different

4:21 family members to different kind of markets and voter bases.

4:24 So Kennedy had sisters and they would hold salons in their living

4:27 rooms for women voters and the Kardashians do the same thing.

4:30 Different Kardashians are able to deploy to different industries,

4:34 whether it's Kourtney Kardashian making out with Travis

4:37 Barker on the VMAs red carpet or Kendall Jenner,

4:40 you know, doing her tequila with her socialite friends at parties.

4:43 And so there's great uses of these different archetypal

4:45 figures in a large family like they both have.

4:48 Yeah, I mean it's like the family itself is a strategy like [laughter]

4:51 on its own thing.

4:52 Totally.

4:53 I mean there was another really interesting

4:55 point of comparison that I had never considered.

4:57 I hadn't even heard of until I read your book.

5:00 Just like the Kardashians have Kris Jenner and like you said,

5:02 like the devil works hard but Kris Jenner works harder.

5:06 The Kennedys had their own public relations mastermind in the family,

5:09 uh the patriarch Joe Kennedy Sr.

5:12 In what ways did his strategy and ambition match Kris's Kardashian playbook?

5:18 Yes, that's the thing.

5:19 It's really interesting that JFK had a dadager.

5:24 [laughter] Joe Kennedy Sr.

5:24 was really interested in a lot of different

5:26 sort of fields and industries as well and he

5:29 had big dreams for his eldest son and when

5:31 his eldest son passed, he looked to JFK.

5:33 And he sent JFK over to Hollywood to hang out on movie

5:37 sets and get a sense of how the industry ran in entertainment.

5:40 He sent him to work under different politicians and be

5:43 mentored by political figures to understand how the political game worked.

5:47 and so he really kind of set the standard

5:50 of what he wanted for at least one of his kids.

5:52 And JFK really showed up for that challenge.

5:55 Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting.

5:56 I think a lot of people, like I was saying earlier,

5:58 think of the rise of this family as like organic.

6:02 Mhm.

6:03 But I mean, I'm thinking back to one of Joe Kennedy's strategies,

6:06 which was like to like pay for press coverage for JFK.

6:12 Yes.

6:13 I don't know.

6:13 I guess I just assumed that like you know,

6:15 because they were this like rich family,

6:17 and they had these home bases in like New York and Massachusetts.

6:20 I was just like, okay, these are just people who are like in the mix,

6:24 and then, you know, they're rich, and so then they just kind of ascend to power.

6:29 I did not realize just how much strategy

6:32 was involved in convincing America to like them,

6:35 that Joe was kind of engineering.

6:38 That was really interesting for me to discover.

6:40 I read this book that I love

6:41 by a scholar named Dave Lubin called Shooting Kennedy,

6:43 and it was actually looking at the myth

6:46 of the Kennedy family through different photos of Kennedy as heroes,

6:49 and I learned from Lubin's book that Joe

6:52 Kennedy once said something to the effect

6:55 of just look at how many magazine covers sell when JFK's on the cover.

7:02 Just look at how much I think many events sell out if he's going to be there,

7:06 or something to that effect.

7:07 And really what he was remarking on was

7:09 the power of notoriety for being notorious,

7:11 and the power of being able to sell or move that much product,

7:14 or sell that many papers.

7:16 So, that was a very Kris Jenner comment um about the power

7:19 of his son's image that Kris was very aware of about Kim.

7:23 Yeah, I mean, I would say it's like a very Kris Jenner thing,

7:25 but it also felt very kind of Trump-y,

7:28 and I want to read the quote actually directly.

7:30 Um in your book it says, "In a 1960 interview,

7:32 Kennedy boasted of his relatable son,

7:35 a self-proclaimed lover of football and James Bond flicks.

7:38 Quote, Jack is the greatest attraction today.

7:42 Why is it when his picture is on the cover

7:44 of life or Redbook they sell a record number of copies.

7:47 You advertise that he will be at a dinner

7:49 and you will break all records for attendance.

7:51 Why is that?

7:52 He has universal appeal.

7:54 Like that?

7:56 If you told me that Donald Trump said

8:00 that about himself or one of his kids or associates,

8:03 um I that same quote would sound totally at home.

8:07 Even like thinking back to the 2017 inauguration and the things that, you know,

8:13 President Trump was saying about

8:15 having record-breaking attendance at his inauguration

8:17 ceremony even though no facts have come to support that assertion.

8:22 There's a certain kind of like P.T.

8:24 Barnum quality in that that like people I think

8:28 find now when they're again thinking about considering Donald Trump,

8:32 a lot of people are very turned off by that.

8:34 But and and would not think of that kind

8:37 of approach being anywhere near the Kennedy family.

8:39 Totally, totally.

8:41 That's why people don't always love when I say this, but I would

8:44 view the Kardashians almost as an average between the Kennedys and the Trumps.

8:48 Interesting.

8:49 I think there's a Kennedy aesthetics,

8:50 but I also think that there's a lot of Trump

8:52 media strategies that we can see in the Kardashians.

8:55 And in fact, they may have even sort of paved the way

8:57 that Trump has really manifested being

9:00 a reality star in the presidential office now.

9:02 These are the most glorified reality stars and influencers

9:05 that we can see today in the Kardashians.

9:07 So, I think they're kind of both and it is something that Trump would boast.

9:11 And what he's doing when he makes those claims is kind

9:16 of piggybacking off of something that made the Kardashians very famous,

9:19 which is they would make headlines for making headlines.

9:24 There were headlines about how many records they broke,

9:26 just as Joe Kennedy said about his son.

9:28 So, there's this relationship with identifying one's

9:30 relevance to media that then perpetuates relevance

9:32 to media in an interesting way that began

9:34 with JFK and definitely has ended with Trump.

9:38 I I also want to talk a little bit about other members of the Kennedy family

9:41 that also expressed this kind of like media savvy

9:43 and an understanding of how to solidify their legacy.

9:46 You know, Joe Kennedy was not the only Kennedy to add to the family's mythology.

9:49 Not many people know that Jacqueline Kennedy contributed to this too.

9:53 I mean, it was news to me when I was reading this book.

9:57 There was specifically something that she did in an interview

10:01 after JFK's assassination that really left a lasting,

10:08 I mean, an I mean, I can't even indefinably

10:11 lasting mark on how we all think about them.

10:13 Tell me about that.

10:14 So, in the aftermath of JFK's assassination,

10:17 Jackie was very strategic in choosing a reporter who had reported on JFK

10:22 in the past in a positive way to come visit her and share his myth.

10:27 She used, first of all,

10:28 a very media savvy method by really

10:32 repetitive in telling the story about Camelot,

10:34 the myth of King Arthur who is the king of the land

10:37 and his people loved him and she said there will be other presidents,

10:41 but there will be nothing like Camelot again.

10:43 She compares the Kennedy administration to Camelot, this idealized,

10:46 idyllic place where a leader really cared

10:49 for his people and was kind of this democratic figure.

10:52 And she repeats this image again and again

10:55 as she talks to this reporter to the point

10:57 where when he turned it in and he kind of omitted parts of that story,

11:03 she insisted that he could not go to print without including it.

11:05 So, she was quite sure that this is was what she wanted for Kennedy's legacy.

11:11 And to this day, Camelot is the myth that many associate with JFK.

11:14 When I ask my grandma who she associate or what words she associates with JFK,

11:18 she says Jackie's pillbox hat and Camelot.

11:21 So, it was a very effective and it was doing a few things.

11:25 It was making the most of what the art

11:27 critic John Berger has called cultural lessons half learned.

11:30 So, it was connecting JFK's real life

11:33 to highly visual and kind of even ambiguous myth, which stays with us.

11:39 It's a feeling that stays with us, and I think it's really made his myth last.

11:44 Um it's also why I in my book compare Kanye to Jackie,

11:49 and [laughter] I say that Jackie brought value to JFK's

11:53 whole image much in the way that Kanye did

11:55 with Kim with cultural lessons and the cultural knowledge

11:59 and capital that he kind of had access to and understood.

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14:44 [music] Yeah, it's interesting.

14:44 I want to talk a little bit more about this comparison,

14:47 specifically like kind of locating Kim in the family

14:50 dynasty and her power in the family dynasty.

14:52 I mean, when comparing the Kardashians to the Kennedys,

14:55 I think the natural assumption that many people

14:57 have made is that Kim is like Jackie O, a beauty and style icon that scores

15:02 that women spend lots of money trying to emulate.

15:04 And and she certainly played into that assumption.

15:06 Like she literally dressed up as Jackie for a 2017 cover of Interview magazine.

15:11 You know, you said that you see Kim as more of the JFK in this equation.

15:18 Lay that out a little bit more, this comparison between Kim and and JFK and sort

15:24 of how each family kind of rotates around each of them.

15:26 Yes.

15:27 So, Jackie brought this immense value to JFK

15:31 because she was really well-versed in culture.

15:36 And so, Jack was good at the everyman thing.

15:40 He talked about loving football and James Bond

15:42 and these things that people can relate to.

15:43 He was attuned to culture, but Jackie brought There was a speech he was nervous

15:48 for or something like this and she helped him remember

15:52 every word to it before he was to go on because

15:55 they had like lost the paper or something like that.

15:57 Yeah, there was some Tennyson poem that she knew, you know,

16:00 from like her days being so deeply educated at Miss

16:03 Porter's and all of this sort of stuff like that.

16:05 She was a you know, she was a extremely educated and well-read woman.

16:09 Not like arm candy.

16:10 Yes, exactly.

16:11 No arm candy for sure.

16:12 She She brought so much value to the substance

16:15 of the kinds of things he talked about.

16:17 She knew a lot about French culture, French fashion.

16:19 So, she helped shape his image in this way

16:22 that was really expansive and elevated it.

16:25 And I think we can say the same of Kanye pretty

16:27 much right away when he and Kim came public with their relationship.

16:31 He was framing it to the public in these highly visual, highly referential ways.

16:36 He was comparing Kim to Marilyn Monroe.

16:38 He said a lot of really colorful things about how

16:40 to situate the two of them as a power couple.

16:43 I just think he brought that cultural value and kind of more high-brow

16:47 view of what Kim was capable of being the culture to the story.

16:53 And he knew how to package it for the media.

16:55 And so, I think Kanye played that Jackie role.

16:58 I want to touch on a key difference that you

17:01 brought up in the book between these two families,

17:03 the Kardashians and and the Kennedys.

17:06 The Kennedys did not want their dysfunction out on Front Street,

17:10 although plenty of it has slipped through the cracks, right?

17:13 While the Kardashian machine like thrives on airing

17:16 a curated version of their own dirty laundry.

17:18 Like they put everything out there.

17:21 Totally.

17:21 Whether we care to know it or not and frankly,

17:23 like as much as we say the opposite, we eat it up.

17:26 What do you think of that sort of contrast

17:29 and how each family approaches managing their public narrative?

17:32 Yes, that is an important distinction for a lot of people,

17:35 especially certain scholars.

17:37 There's a scholar that wouldn't even talk to me cuz

17:38 I she saw that I was making that comparison and she

17:40 didn't want me to interview her cuz she was not

17:42 interested in making any connection between the Kardashians and the Kennedys,

17:45 which I found fascinating and I had to respect it.

17:48 I I understood.

17:49 I think it still speaks to the Kennedys

17:52 as foundational to the Kardashians because there were media

17:56 norms at that time where dirty laundry was not

17:58 being aired to that extent and actually if anything,

18:00 dirty laundry was being aired in a political way through

18:03 hearings and McCarthyism and all of that at that time,

18:06 but Kennedy still represented this growing sense

18:08 of what a theorist has called other-directedness, David Riesman.

18:15 The suburbs [music] were kind of starting to populate

18:17 outside of cities and neighbors were curious about what

18:19 the other one was doing and this [music] is coinciding

18:21 with the entrance of the TV into people's living rooms,

18:24 so they're feeling closer [music] to the objects of their consumption

18:26 and media and that includes JFK as a political figure.

18:31 [music] And so that's what made it so powerful when Jackie opened

18:33 the White House and opened basically the Kennedys' home to the American public.

18:37 Tell me about the silverware and the China, Mrs.

18:41 Kennedy.

18:41 [music] Well, it's not silver, it's all gold over may.

18:47 [music] There was still an opening of private spaces

18:49 to the public and there was a growing sense

18:51 of interest in what other people were doing

18:53 and what was going on [music] behind closed doors.

18:55 Kennedy himself was in a number of basically

18:58 docudramas taking [music] cameras into his decision rooms.

19:03 The heart of the question is whether all Americans

19:06 ought to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities.

19:11 Whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated.

19:17 [music] So that was sort of like the beginning step towards people realizing

19:20 that media can help them learn more

19:22 about these people that they're interested in.

19:23 So the Kardashians are just a natural, you know,

19:26 by decades and decades progression of now

19:29 we're learning so much more about them.

19:30 The And one more thing I'll say is

19:32 the tabloids really still fed this interest like

19:36 Jackie Kennedy's violating [clears throat] nudes which made

19:39 the cover of Hustler magazine and how that put

19:42 Hustler magazine on it just speaks to that there

19:45 was still a huge public appetite for the personal

19:47 lives even if they weren't selling them

19:48 and commodifying them the way the Kardashians now do.

19:50 Hmm.

19:51 Hmm.

19:52 Hmm.

19:53 That makes me think of another another thing that you brought up in the book.

19:56 Um which is like comparisons to Marilyn Monroe which Kim has [laughter]

20:04 embraced.

20:04 Yes.

20:04 She has foisted upon us.

20:07 Yes.

20:07 She wants to remind us that she is a modern day Marilyn Monroe.

20:10 Yes.

20:11 Um and yet you point out in the book that I

20:13 think and I don't think this is going to be

20:14 news to anybody but people feel very differently despite how

20:18 many overlaps there are in sort of like their sex appeal,

20:21 their body shapes, Mhm.

20:23 how strongly people feel about their beauty, how iconic they both are.

20:27 Yeah.

20:27 Talk to me about that sort of dichotomy and maybe where

20:31 people feel a lot of more discomfort and distrust of Kim.

20:34 Yes.

20:35 I Yes, that's the thing.

20:37 In my mind Marilyn represented a kind of more analog era of media that is very

20:42 easy to be a nostalgic about now because

20:44 it felt less busy and far more glamorous.

20:47 And Kim is to me the ultimate post-modern icon because she

20:51 has made it her business to be everything everywhere all at once.

20:55 And that is the best way I think one

20:57 can make a lasting impression in such a busy digital, temporal media landscape.

21:02 You have to be very, very present.

21:04 Also, people are resistant to Marilyn

21:06 comparisons because there's not that sympathy there.

21:09 And Kim won't take on that aspect of the Marilyn myth.

21:13 Like, Marilyn died.

21:15 So, that is a huge distinction between

21:17 the two women and what their legacies will be.

21:19 And I think that's also where the distaste comes from.

21:21 But, it is also the tension between modernism and postmodernism.

21:25 I got to say, I mean,

21:26 though a lot of the public expresses disdain for the Kardashian-Jenner family,

21:31 they are an enduring cultural institution, whether we like it or not.

21:35 I I argue that their popularity actually indicates that they

21:40 are selling the public something that we actually really want,

21:43 regardless of what we might say.

21:44 Which makes me wonder,

21:46 what truth is the Kardashian-Jenner family reflecting back

21:50 to us that we don't always want to see?

21:52 Yes.

21:53 One common pattern, because in my book I I analyze a lot

21:56 of American icons to understand how we got to this moment of Kim.

21:59 And I started to observe a common pattern

22:01 from the Kennedys to the Disney brand to Marilyn,

22:06 to to so many of these icons from American history.

22:09 There's a lot of cultural anxiety around sex, death, and race, and money.

22:14 So, these really core things that that are quintessentially American.

22:17 You hit all the big ones.

22:18 Yeah.

22:18 [laughter] Yeah, yes, yes.

22:20 And I we say I'm a psychotherapist by day,

22:23 but I don't psychoanalyze the Kardashians, but I do find our public reactions

22:27 to their antics to be a really helpful psychoanalytic mirror.

22:30 And I think they're figures of catharsis.

22:31 They play this stuff out so that we can work out how we feel about it,

22:35 what our lines are around these things, what our boundaries are,

22:37 our moral limitations, what we're not okay with.

22:40 And so, that's what I think they do.

22:43 That's the function they do serve.

22:45 And that's why we keep them going.

22:47 And I think they have become somewhat

22:48 integrated and normalized in culture at this point.

22:52 So, they're not so central, but they're everywhere, embedded.

22:57 Embedded.

22:57 Embedded, yeah.

22:59 Yeah.

23:00 I wonder, we're looking back We're looking back at American culture.

23:04 In what ways have the Kardashians redefined the American dream?

23:11 [clears throat] Well, to your point earlier,

23:15 I think that they did really drive home in a big highly

23:21 sensationalized way that if you share more of yourself you can make it.

23:28 If you find a way to come out of labor power,

23:31 your image, your persona, your myth.

23:33 It's a way of participating in society that can have returns.

23:37 And that's something that I do hope readers

23:39 take away to be a little bit more active

23:41 in how they consume media rather than passive

23:43 and to reconsider the way they relate to life online.

23:46 I think the Kardashians have normalized this idea of a sharing

23:49 of the personal that I think has redefined how we live.

23:53 I'll put it that way.

23:54 And I think that is why I think on a unconscious

23:57 level the disdain we've always had for the Kardashians as a culture

24:01 is because they do represent these changes in media and we

24:05 know that it's something to be at least anxious or mindful about.

24:08 And so I think that's also the resistance to the Kardashians has been

24:10 sort of an unconscious resistance to this change and that I can understand.

24:19 MJ, you've given me so much to think about.

24:24 [laughter] You've given me so much to think about.

24:25 Even after reading the whole like 400 page book,

24:27 I'm like there's a more to you on another book perhaps?

24:32 Yes, maybe book number two.

24:34 I just love talking to someone that did such a close reading.

24:36 I'm very grateful and humbled by that.

24:37 So thank you.

24:41 [music] That was MJ Corey, author of Deconstructing the Kardashians.

24:44 You can find her book wherever they're sold.

24:47 This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by [music] Corey Antonio Rose.

24:51 Our supervising producer is Share Vincent.

24:54 Our executive producer is Barton Gerdwood.

24:56 Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sangweni.

24:59 All right, that's [music] all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR.

25:03 I'm Brittany Luse.

25:05 Talk soon.

25:06 [music]