The Best Vitality & Health Protocols | Dr. Rhonda Patrick

0:00 There's lots of data now showing that people that are

0:02 doing these like short bursts at at least a minute long,

0:07 but [clears throat] up to 3 minutes.

0:08 They're moving faster with intent and it's

0:11 having outsize effects on on health outcomes.

0:14 So, for example, individuals that do on the high end,

0:18 so they're doing, you know,

0:19 3 minutes of this short burst of an unstructured type of exercise snack,

0:24 and they do it three times a day.

0:26 So, it's a total of 9 minutes a day.

0:28 Okay?

0:29 That's associated with a 40% reduction in all-cause mortality,

0:32 40% reduction in cancer-related mortality,

0:34 a 50% reduction in cardiovascular-related mortality.

0:38 Wow.

0:37 9 minutes a day.

0:39 Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

0:40 where we discuss science and science-based tools [music] for everyday life.

0:48 I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

0:50 of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

0:54 My guest today is Dr.

0:55 Rhonda Patrick, a biomedical scientist and leading public health educator.

0:59 For over a decade, Rhonda has been one

1:01 of the most trusted voices in building science-based health protocols.

1:04 Today, we discuss what the latest and best research says we should

1:07 all be doing to improve our health and vitality and avoid disease.

1:11 Rhonda shares with us her exact exercise,

1:13 nutrition, supplementation, and sauna protocols,

1:16 and we get really detailed about the mechanisms and logic behind each one.

1:20 We also discuss the things that science say you

1:22 can do to significantly reduce your cancer and cardiovascular risk,

1:26 including how to reduce visceral fat and arterial plaque.

1:29 Today's discussion truly leaves no stone unturned.

1:32 We discuss how eating can increase inflammation, believe it or not,

1:36 ways to support your gut health, creatine, vitamin D,

1:39 why broad vitamin and mineral and fiber support is crucial,

1:42 as well as the different forms of magnesium and each of their unique effects.

1:46 We also discuss omega-3s and why prescription sources of omega-3s may

1:50 be the cleanest and most cost-efficient way to obtain sufficient omega-3 intake.

1:55 We also discuss the importance of prioritizing

1:57 regular resistance training and hit workouts over protein.

2:01 You still need protein, but emphasizing the exercise component is crucial.

2:05 And we discuss fiber, micronutrients,

2:07 and why short-term fasting can be beneficial.

2:09 Dr.

2:10 Rhonda Patrick is a true wealth of knowledge,

2:12 and today she generously provides us a masterclass on how you can

2:16 design and adjust the exact health protocols to meet your specific needs.

2:21 Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast

2:24 is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

2:26 It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero

2:29 cost to consumer information about science

2:31 and science-related tools to the general public.

2:33 In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

2:37 And now for my discussion with Dr.

2:39 Rhonda Patrick.

2:40 Welcome back, Dr.

2:41 Rhonda Patrick.

2:43 Excited to be here.

2:44 It's been a while.

2:44 I'm so excited.

2:45 There's so much to go into.

2:47 And I'll start off the same way I started last time because it's even more true.

2:52 Thank you for being first person

2:54 into this public science health education business.

2:57 I don't know if everyone's aware of it,

2:59 but you were the first person in, which is why I didn't say

3:02 first man in, because the first person in was and is a woman,

3:06 and you've done a marvelous job of educating people on science,

3:09 how to parse papers and data,

3:11 health practices, and um you know,

3:14 the rest of us are just trying to follow in your wake.

3:17 So, thank you very much.

3:19 I just want to thank you for being first.

3:21 Oh man, thank you so much for that.

3:22 And also thank you for doing what you do.

3:24 I mean, you really do a great service for science communication,

3:29 um you know, education, helping people love science and get healthier.

3:33 Thank you.

3:33 Well, uh you're the pioneer.

3:35 It's not always easy being a pioneer, but we all benefit,

3:38 so let's jump in at exercise because um lately

3:43 you've actually been posting your workouts, which is awesome.

3:46 And uh you're clearly very fit.

3:48 I learned before talking to you today that uh you were a competitive athlete.

3:52 You were a long jumper or a triple jumper.

3:54 I was a long jumper,

3:55 but I would say my real competitive athleteness comes from my jump roping.

4:00 Okay.

4:01 [laughter] All right.

4:02 I'm on a professional jump roping team.

4:05 Professional?

4:05 Yes.

4:05 Yeah.

4:05 It was It was we would compete.

4:07 So, I my friend and I started the team when we were in second grade.

4:11 And it was called the San Diego Sand Skippers.

4:13 It was part of the International Rope Skipping Organization,

4:15 which was actually started by her uncle,

4:18 but there's jump rope teams all around the world and you know,

4:22 now I think there's a new name, but like it got taken over by the Universal

4:26 Jump Rope Team or something like that.

4:27 I don't know exactly what it is, but um so,

4:30 I was on a team and every year we would compete in in Boulder, Colorado.

4:34 There was competitions for all kinds of you know,

4:36 jumping rope and um I would perform and start jump

4:40 rope teams around the school around different schools in San Diego.

4:42 So, I I used to get out of school um you know,

4:45 get out of school free card and uh my partner and I would go

4:48 and and start um do workshops at other

4:51 schools and help them start jump rope teams.

4:54 And the idea was cardiovascular health, healthy heart, and uh yeah.

4:58 So, so that's really I would say

5:00 my my my roots with uh being a competitive athlete.

5:03 Awesome.

5:03 I love skipping rope.

5:04 Is it okay to say skipping rope or is it jumping rope?

5:07 Okay.

5:07 rope, jumping rope.

5:08 And actually, it's a great opportunity for me to ask you

5:10 what your thoughts are about um exercise that isn't just linear, right?

5:15 I know like real jump ropers can do crossovers and um

5:18 and these days I'm seeing a lot more about rope flow.

5:21 I think it's David Weck and others online or you know,

5:24 stuff that's getting people out of the standard, you know,

5:26 curls, bench presses, lunges, you know, and getting movements that are more just

5:31 for lack of a better term, across the body.

5:34 Do you think there's something to that in terms of real physical benefits?

5:38 I mean, I imagine there is.

5:39 Sure.

5:39 I mean, I wouldn't be the expert to be able

5:42 to give you a good answer on that, but I

5:43 do think that jumping rope in general has unique

5:47 benefits in addition to obviously it's a great cardiovascular exercise.

5:51 You're getting the weight-bearing aspects as well for building

5:54 bone density and I think that earlier for me,

5:57 you know, I was doing it as a young girl.

5:59 So important, right?

6:00 Cuz you're kind of banking that that bone density

6:02 early on, which is important cuz at some point,

6:05 you know, menopause will hit and and estrogen goes

6:08 down and and so you start to lose more bone.

6:11 But yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of benefits to jumping

6:13 rope beyond what I'm describing as cardiovascular someone else could answer.

6:21 [laughter] I'm certainly going to get back to jumping rope now that we you know,

6:23 resurrected it in this conversation.

6:25 And I have to say uh bone density measurements aside, you have awesome posture.

6:30 I notice people's posture.

6:32 Yeah, I didn't didn't mean to put you on the spot here,

6:33 but yeah, when I walked in I was like,

6:35 if you've ever interacted with Ronda in person,

6:36 which I I have, you have amazing posture.

6:39 And these days good posture is rare,

6:41 so you know, it's maybe the things are related.

6:44 I imagine they probably are, bone health and and posture and so forth.

6:48 In terms of the sorts of exercise that people

6:50 are more familiar with, what's your routine look like?

6:53 And what sorts of things in your routine are non-negotiables?

6:57 And where's the place for experimentation and kind of what you're exploring now?

7:03 So for me, exercise is part of my personal hygiene as you and I were discussing.

7:08 It it really is a non-negotiable.

7:10 I absolutely have to do exercise just like I have to brush my teeth.

7:15 And you know, I kind of got that from Dr.

7:18 Ben Levine, who is a probably one

7:20 of the world leading cardiovascular exercise physiologist.

7:24 He's at UT Southwestern in Dallas.

7:25 So I want to shout out his name because I really learned a lot from him,

7:28 but the non-negotiables for me really are getting

7:33 cardiovascular exercise and getting my my resistance training.

7:37 So building muscle, maintaining muscle strength as well.

7:41 So my routine for me,

7:43 I work out probably about 5 to 6 hours a week and those workouts

7:47 I largely am doing a combination

7:49 of high-intensity interval training that's not necessarily like

7:54 the Norwegian 4 by 4 where I'm going as hard as I can for 1

7:57 minute or 4 minutes and then recovering for 3 minutes and doing that four times.

8:00 It's really, you know, the Norwegian 4 by 4 is a hard workout.

8:04 Um it's really good for improving your cardiorespiratory fitness,

8:07 which I think is one of the best markers for longevity.

8:10 We can talk about that.

8:11 Um I do a lot of, you know,

8:14 it's a it's a mixture of doing, you know, rowing machine,

8:20 getting on the assault bike,

8:21 and then doing mix it in mixing it in with lifting weights,

8:24 doing some deadlifts, you know, doing squats.

8:27 Um so, it's really for me a non-negotiable to to do

8:30 my my vigorous-intensity exercise is what I would call it.

8:33 So, you're really kind of getting your heart rate up to, you know,

8:37 80% max heart rate at at points,

8:40 not always, but especially during the intervals.

8:42 I would say that's a non-negotiable for me.

8:44 How many days a week are you doing that?

8:46 I do my my longer hit workouts.

8:49 So, I have four days a week where I'm doing at least an hour.

8:52 So, two of those two of those sessions are more of a CrossFit

8:55 type of training where I'll do the first 30 minutes will be strength training.

8:59 So, I'll just be lifting heavier with like, you know, fewer reps.

9:02 What's the rest between sets?

9:03 Sorry to get granular, but people will wonder.

9:05 what's funny is I typically rest about 2 minutes between my sets.

9:09 I I recover pretty quick um and my I do it

9:13 with a coach and my coach usually tells me that I'm spot-on.

9:16 I'm like ready to go and it's been about 2 minutes.

9:19 So, I I usually that's my recovery time.

9:22 And so, the first 30 minutes of strength training and that'll be like deadlifts,

9:25 it'll be, you know, squats, I'll be cleaning, I'll be doing front squats.

9:28 Sometimes I do the barbell or back squats, right?

9:31 Like it's a mixture of different types of strength training.

9:34 And then the last 30 minutes is

9:36 more of a high-intensity interval training session session.

9:38 So, it'll be like you know, where I'm I'm getting my heart rate up.

9:41 So, I'm mixing in the row machine and then I have like maybe I'm doing cleans,

9:44 but they're lighter, right?

9:45 So, it's like more reps, but lighter load, right?

9:48 So, um that's I do that twice a week and that each is an hour session.

9:53 And then I do also twice a week about

9:56 an hour and 20 minutes of it's also more high intensity,

10:00 but I have more recovery time cuz I'm doing with my girlfriends

10:03 and we kind of chit-chat a little bit and so, um but it's a very similar.

10:06 We do, you know, rowing machine, assault bikes,

10:09 we do the skier, you know, Rogue has that skier.

10:12 And then we mix it in with, you know, chest presses and we do, you know,

10:16 assisted pull-ups and we do, you know,

10:19 lighter squats with like larger, you know, more reps.

10:22 So, that's another, you know, 2 hours a week.

10:24 So, I have 4 hours a week of just doing a lot of that sort of CrossFit

10:29 HIIT type of training and then I mix that in with my more like runs that I do,

10:35 which I would say are still they're still considered vigorous intensity.

10:39 They're just not quite as high intensity.

10:41 And I I do probably I run in like maybe 6 miles a week,

10:46 so maybe maybe at a at my max,

10:49 but these days I'm mostly running probably for like 4 miles a week.

10:53 So, um those runs tend to be like sometimes they're 2 miles,

10:56 sometimes they're 3 miles and, you know, enjoy running?

10:58 I do.

10:59 I do.

11:00 And I think it's important as well and sometimes I'll run with my husband

11:03 and we just kind of like chill out and talk and, you know,

11:06 it's it's a nice time for me as well just to kind of do that with him.

11:11 Um and then on weekends I'll probably do like a hike with my family.

11:17 And sometimes we'll do like a sprint up the hill and, you know,

11:20 but it's more just enjoyable time in nature.

11:23 Um still moving, but you know, it's it's kind of family time, too.

11:27 Weight vests on the run or hike?

11:29 No, I don't not I I I'm kind of wanting to experiment with that, but not really.

11:33 I'm just kind of sometimes we bring our puppy and you know,

11:36 so it's it's more about the experience,

11:38 I think, than like I'm like I get I get a lot of work out throughout the week.

11:42 Sure.

11:42 But it's like you said, it's non-negotiable for me.

11:44 And and times when I'm like like today, so I you know,

11:48 I had a long drive and so I I got on my Peloton and I did a 10-minute you know,

11:52 I did a 10-minute Tabata back-to-back.

11:54 So it was like two back-to-back Tabatas.

11:56 Right?

11:56 So it was it ended up being 10 minutes.

11:58 It was like 30-second recovery in between the two Tabata sessions.

12:01 Two to one ratio, 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off.

12:04 But like I have to do something every day.

12:07 And if I'm traveling or I have like an early podcast or something,

12:10 I'll I'll just jump on the bike and I have to get that blood flow.

12:13 Sometimes I'm in my hotel room and I don't want to go to the gym,

12:16 I don't have time, and I just in my room, you know, I do I do the air squats,

12:20 I'll do high knees, jumping jacks, and I either repeat for 10 minutes.

12:23 I'm getting my heart rate up and I'm you know, I've got sweat on my brow.

12:25 Like I'm not it's not like the most intense workout,

12:28 but it's so important for me.

12:30 You know, it there's there's a variety of brain benefits that have been shown

12:34 with even just 10 minutes of with this vigorous

12:36 type of intensity of workout you do, you know, where you're I mean,

12:39 you probably have seen this this data where it's

12:41 like just 10 minutes of this vigorous type of exercise,

12:45 you're immediately increasing neuronal connections.

12:48 Um there's been studies showing that you have

12:51 an improvement in executive function by like 14%, which is pretty big.

12:55 I think it was like a 50-millisecond improvement

12:58 processing speed or something which doesn't sound a lot,

13:00 but actually translates to a big improvement in executive function.

13:03 So my brain works better, I feel better, you know, better mood.

13:07 Um there's even studies that have compared impulse

13:10 control after various types of intensity of workout.

13:13 So like there was one study that compared

13:16 a more low intensity versus moderate intensity versus high intensity.

13:20 So you're talking about like walking versus maybe, you know,

13:23 jogging slowly where you can still have a conversation

13:27 versus like you're doing a hit workout, right?

13:29 You're on.

13:29 When you're on, you're not really talking cuz you're

13:31 going as hard as you can during that interval.

13:33 And it was the high intensity, you know,

13:35 vigorous intensity exercise that really increased plasma serotonin,

13:40 which has been shown to associate with brain serotonin.

13:42 The studies have been done.

13:44 And serotonin is very important for, as you know, for impulse control.

13:48 I mean, a lot of people think about serotonin with respect

13:50 to mood because we have these selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors,

13:54 SSRIs, that are used to treat, you know, depression, major depressive disorder.

13:59 But serotonin, as you know, does so much more more than that.

14:02 And impulse control is one of the the the big

14:05 things that serotonin plays a role in.

14:07 And so the studies showed that plasma serotonin increased

14:09 in the higher intensity group and that correlated with improved impulse control.

14:13 So, of course, for us now in the modern-day society

14:17 that we live in, we're constantly being bombarded with, you know,

14:20 social media and all these things.

14:22 And like, you have to be able to kind of like

14:25 filter that out and not like just go with the impulse.

14:27 Like, check my social media, check my, you know,

14:29 and how many likes did I get or whatever.

14:31 You need to just be able to focus.

14:32 And so that, for me, you know, serotonin is important.

14:35 And so I like to get that vigorous intensity exercise as well.

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17:03 I love that you mentioned other other

17:05 functions of serotonin because as you point out,

17:07 it is so heavily associated with this mood

17:09 aspect and certainly has a role there,

17:11 but um the impulse control piece is I think is

17:14 a non-trivial aspect to uh the effects of exercise and just generally.

17:19 I'm curious do you bring your phone or feel compelled to check

17:23 your phone during workouts or are you able to just say,

17:25 "I'm compartmentalizing now.

17:26 This is the workout." You might put on music or maybe text here or there if you

17:30 need to, but are you able to compartmentalize

17:32 or do you struggle with the phone during workouts?

17:37 Oh, I don't bring my phone to my workout at all.

17:39 Like I don't Now, I do have a watch that I wear that you know,

17:43 if there's like an emergency I'll get a text message.

17:45 Often times I put it on silent like I

17:47 on no notifications because I don't want to be bothered,

17:49 but I don't I don't really check my phone.

17:52 Um I I I don't really like checking things like social media.

17:57 For me it's just a distraction and frankly,

18:01 I think it's pretty terrible for people's brains even though like you know,

18:05 my business kind of depends on it somewhat.

18:07 I think I think social media is not really good for people to be honest.

18:10 So, I don't really check my phone or bring my phone to my workouts.

18:14 My workouts are I like to chat with my friends

18:17 when I'm working out with them and that's fun.

18:19 That's in real life.

18:20 Yes, that's in that's in that's in real life as the kids say.

18:23 That's in real life and yeah,

18:26 phones phones for me are not something that I bring to my workout.

18:30 Great.

18:30 Yeah, I've been experimenting with not allowing the phone

18:34 in my gym and just the workouts go so much

18:37 better and I find that the mental and physical

18:38 resetting aspect of working out just seems to be enhanced,

18:41 but sounds like you were already there and I'm just arriving.

18:44 So, I have a couple other specific about your workouts because for my own

18:48 interest and I know many people will wonder for the dedicated weight workouts,

18:53 are these whole body workouts?

18:54 And you said low reps.

18:55 Maybe you could just tell us what low reps is for you and then

18:59 the seems like the the ever present question is to failure close to failure.

19:04 I mean, just to you know, round out that that portion of the workout picture.

19:08 The workouts that I'm doing with my strength training workouts with my coach,

19:12 you know, it it really depends.

19:13 Most of those workouts are they're they're multi-joint workouts.

19:18 So, I am most of the time doing, you know,

19:21 some either front squat, back squat, or I'm cleaning it as well, right?

19:26 Which obviously the the weight goes down if I'm

19:28 doing if I'm cleaning it cuz it's hard to clean.

19:31 It's also the hard like it's the thing that I hate doing the most.

19:36 Cleans.

19:35 Oh, yeah.

19:36 Cleans with front squat because it's really hard.

19:39 And for me.

19:41 I mean, for others who've been doing it for years,

19:42 I'm sure it's like, you know, they love it.

19:44 But for me, it's very hard.

19:46 I've only been doing clean since, you know, February 2024.

19:52 So, I'm pretty new to it.

19:53 And so, it's mentally like I have to overcome that challenge.

19:57 Which by the way, once I started doing all this sort of weight training,

20:01 I've always been an endurance junkie.

20:02 Like I like I used to like go long runs and, you know,

20:05 races and stuff like that.

20:07 So, for me, that's like my safe spot, right?

20:10 That's what comes easy to me.

20:12 Weight training and resistance training, strength training,

20:15 definitely not something that I've done my whole life.

20:18 I'm so glad that I started doing it, but very very challenging for me.

20:21 And so, I would say the biggest effect was

20:23 on my brain and the ability to handle stress better.

20:27 Where it was like unbelievable cuz it was so hard.

20:30 And I I just didn't want to do these cleans,

20:33 you know, and and and these front squats.

20:35 Um and then the rest of my day was not as hard.

20:38 And that to me was like the biggest surprise for this type of training.

20:42 But anyway, so um I do a variety of um if I'm doing if I'm going heavier,

20:47 then it, you know, depends.

20:48 Sometimes I'll start off as like, "Okay, we start off.

20:50 We do five reps." And then we go down to four.

20:53 And then we go down to three.

20:53 And then we go down to one,

20:55 Are you doing singles?

20:56 We do.

20:56 Mhm.

20:56 I know Yeah.

20:57 Yeah.

20:58 And that's the hardest.

20:59 It's the hardest.

21:01 But then there's there's like my coach will be like, "It's just one.

21:03 It's just one." You know, sometimes we'll do like six, five,

21:06 and then we do four twice, and then we do three twice, right?

21:09 And so, it all depends, you know, also on the day.

21:13 There's some days where I'm just like, you know,

21:16 can we do lower reps and like lighter weight, right?

21:19 Where I'm just like, it's this is the day for me.

21:21 I I'm I'm stressed.

21:23 I'm not I'm not here.

21:24 Like So, you kind of have to modify your workout, right?

21:27 According to how you feel that day.

21:29 Um but I would say that those the majority

21:32 of my strength training workouts are or deadlifting,

21:36 you know, I love deadlift deadlifting.

21:38 I think I'm pretty good at at pulling that weight up, lifting that weight up.

21:41 straight bar, hex bar?

21:42 I do straight bar.

21:43 there's so many variables, but yeah.

21:45 bar, and um it's the same deal with that.

21:49 Like most of the time with strength training we'll do, you know,

21:51 we start off at like five or six, and then work our way down.

21:56 And then I I usually do a drop set after, you know,

21:59 any of those sessions where I'll do 10, and then it's like a lot lighter, right?

22:03 So, those those are typically my strength training sessions are multi-joint.

22:07 Sometimes I'll do accessory sessions, you know, where I'm working I do,

22:11 you know, the dips um or the Bulgarian, you know, the Bulgarian split squats.

22:19 I mean, just the accessory stuff that you're working

22:20 the like smaller stabilization muscles and stuff like that.

22:23 I love that you call Bulgarian split squats accessory smaller muscles.

22:27 For a lot of people, that's the compound work.

22:29 Which is just I have to say I I am inside I'm just like so delighted

22:34 because I mean obviously weight training is something

22:38 that's caught on broadly for men and women now,

22:40 but I don't know many women, and I know they're out there,

22:43 but I don't know many women who are uh working down to singles on multi-joint,

22:49 like real multi-joint, like, you know, deadlifts, cleans.

22:54 I know they're out there, but it's not that common to see in gyms,

22:56 and uh this is going to no doubt spark a debate because you know,

23:00 some of the older, slightly ornery,

23:03 but very credentialed strength training folks have been

23:05 online recently saying that as people um pass 35,

23:10 that they shouldn't do squats, that they shouldn't do deadlifts,

23:14 and certainly shouldn't do them heavy because it

23:16 it because of this whole thing of, you know,

23:17 you can do higher reps and you can go to failure and still get hypertrophy.

23:20 But what I love is that you're not necessarily talking about hypertrophy,

23:25 maybe some hypertrophy, but this is about strength.

23:27 This is about building more strength.

23:30 And triples and doubles and singles, that's awesome.

23:34 It's hard.

23:35 It's so hard, and it's the part that I I'm like

23:39 all about let's like the last 30 minutes when it's hit,

23:41 and then that's hard it's a different kind of hard.

23:43 But for me, the strength training is the hardest,

23:47 and there's definitely a mental component, right?

23:48 Where I do not want to do it.

23:50 It's like you talk about with cold plunging, right?

23:52 Like you you just it's so unpleasant, and you don't want to do it,

23:56 and like you do it, and it's

23:57 like that mental toughness that you're building, right?

24:00 I that's what I experience when I'm doing these, you know,

24:03 strength training exercises that I'm doing.

24:05 And and I don't know if it's going to get easier, maybe it will.

24:09 It's hasn't yet.

24:10 I still I still dread it, but I do it, and I'm proud of myself for doing it,

24:16 but it is is definitely hard, and I am getting stronger,

24:19 I think mentally and obviously physically as well.

24:22 But um I have to add in the aerobic as well, though.

24:25 I think that's really important.

24:26 That's your base.

24:27 Yeah, for sure.

24:28 You love it.

24:29 I love it, and I do think cardiorespiratory fitness is very important, you know,

24:33 for for long-term health as well as, you know,

24:34 obviously building muscle and strength.

24:37 Well, on the one hand,

24:38 I want for you as a friend to for you to hate the heavy work less.

24:42 On the other hand, I don't because of this literature,

24:46 I'm sure you're familiar with it, but uh the anterior midcingulate cortex is

24:50 the brain area that is hyperplastic throughout the lifespan,

24:53 which is rare for a brain area,

24:56 and it enlarges um when we do things we don't want to do.

25:00 I mean, it's so clear.

25:01 It's not just about doing hard things.

25:03 It's about It's about doing the hard thing you hate.

25:06 [laughter] And And for you, that sounds like the heavy compound movements.

25:09 For me, yeah, I don't like the cold plunge, which is why I do it.

25:12 I don't think it's magic.

25:13 I just think it's a It's a sure fire

25:15 stimulus that I hate to make get mentally stronger.

25:18 And I think having something that you really despise that you know is good

25:23 for you seems to keep this anterior

25:25 mid-cingulate cortex volume either increasing or the same.

25:28 And that's actually the thing in these so-called super

25:31 agers that is the strongest anatomical correlate that we have.

25:35 So, on the one hand, I hope it gets easier.

25:37 On the other hand, for your sake, I hope it doesn't get it easier well,

25:40 cuz it's still It's going to be so much more beneficial.

25:42 a coach who can tell when it's getting easier,

25:45 and she will definitely up the weight.

25:50 Mhm.

25:49 I I I mean, it keeps I mean, it keeps going up.

25:52 And so, it doesn't It It gets easier in a sense, but it doesn't, right?

25:56 So, I mean, I think that's that's the whole point is you're building strength,

25:59 and you keep making it heavier,

26:01 and it becomes harder again because now it's heavier.

26:05 Awesome.

26:04 But, um and I haven't gotten injured, so that's also, you know, knock on wood.

26:09 Yeah.

26:09 [laughter] Yeah, knock on wood.

26:10 I Thank you for rounding out that picture.

26:13 It's super inspiring for men and women, you know, so

26:16 It's not easy to post on social media because obviously I'm a newbie.

26:20 So, I have all sorts of, you know, things that I can ways I can improve.

26:25 But, I'm posting it, you know.

26:26 Well, and the fact that you're working down into triples, doubles, and singles,

26:29 I think is something that I'm trying to do more of, and I think

26:34 this notion that you can get hypertrophy

26:36 with higher reps if you take it to failure.

26:37 Sure, I I totally agree.

26:38 Read the studies.

26:39 Totally agree with the data.

26:40 But, not everything is about hypertrophy.

26:42 I think that's what people forget.

26:43 It's not all about growing muscle.

26:45 Um and VO2 max, which is great,

26:48 but it's just It's not all about um the top contour.

26:52 And I What I love about the way you approach everything is you're

26:55 you go through multiple layers of of the the health stratus, as it were.

26:59 This is probably a good opportunity to talk about protein,

27:02 because I have a very specific question about protein.

27:04 We all hear 1 g of quality protein per pound of body weight or lean body weight.

27:08 That's sort of what we're kind of what's thrown at us.

27:11 By doing the heavier weight training,

27:12 do you notice that your protein appetite has increased?

27:16 Like appetite specifically for protein foods.

27:19 I don't know that I have.

27:20 You know, I interestingly have been doing

27:24 a little bit more intermittent fasting, in which,

27:29 you know, people think about intermittent fasting,

27:30 they think about it as just one thing, one intervention.

27:33 I think it's two.

27:34 There's a behavioral aspect to it,

27:36 where it's a tool to sort of lower the amount of calories you're taking in.

27:39 The other one would be this metabolic switch,

27:41 but so I've actually since I don't know, September,

27:45 maybe last September of 2025, been been doing more intermittent fasting,

27:49 and what I mean by this is really just eating less.

27:54 And the reason for that is because I noticed that everything that I was doing,

28:00 which was, you know, I mean, I eat healthy, I exercise a lot,

28:04 and yet I was sort of gaining more fat in the the belly section, right?

28:09 The visceral fat.

28:10 And the only thing that really helped me stop that, put

28:15 the put the brakes on, was getting more in a caloric deficit.

28:19 Um, so maybe my drive to do that kind of is

28:25 skewing whether or not my appetite for protein would go up.

28:29 But I personally am on the scale of 1.2 to 1.6 g per kilogram body weight, which

28:36 Per kilogram?

28:36 Per kilogram, which is probably a little bit less than the pound.

28:40 You know, it's it's a kind of a throwaway statement,

28:42 a gram of quality protein, um, as defined as something with, you know,

28:48 lots of the essential amino acids and uh uh so

28:51 forth uh per pound or per lean pound of body mass.

28:56 Yeah, so Which is something I think I and many other people shoot

28:58 for, but I'm curious how religious you are about the, you know,

29:02 getting a certain protein amount or per meal.

29:04 Basically, it wasn't working for me in terms of like I was really

29:07 trying to get aim for like the higher end of the for me,

29:11 you know, 1.6 g per kilogram body weight or even a little bit above that.

29:15 And what I found what was happening is that I was actually gaining gaining

29:18 more weight because I think I was consuming more calories at the same time.

29:22 If if if you're getting it from whole foods, right?

29:23 Like that's just kind of naturally going to happen.

29:26 Uh and so I had to slide down.

29:29 Um, but I'm still I'm still like I said,

29:31 I'm still getting within that range of like probably on average maybe 1.3,

29:36 1.4 g per kilogram body weight.

29:39 And it's really it's really worked well for me,

29:41 but like people are different and you have different goals, right?

29:45 You know, like I'm gaining muscle mass and I feel like all my training

29:48 is like the most important thing and I think that we need generally speaking,

29:51 I think people should become more obsessed

29:53 with training and less obsessed with protein.

29:56 Like the protein will complement the training

29:58 and as you mentioned, if you're training,

30:00 perhaps your appetite for protein will increase and so you'll start to eat,

30:04 you know, more protein and less refined carbohydrates.

30:07 I already wasn't eating a lot

30:08 of refined ultra-processed foods in the first place.

30:12 Probably not the answer you were expecting,

30:14 but it's it's really um for me like I I just focusing on getting more

30:19 protein was was not working for my body um in terms of but then again,

30:24 I'm 47 years old, you know,

30:26 that perimenopause phase very different than someone who's 37, maybe.

30:31 I don't know the answer to that.

30:32 I I um I do know that I hear from more and more people these days

30:36 that they are having a hard time getting

30:38 that 1 g of protein per pound of body weight.

30:40 It it like a lot to them is what they're saying.

30:42 They feel like they're kind of forcing themselves to do it.

30:44 feel that way.

30:45 Exactly.

30:45 So, I'm actually really pleased with your answer

30:48 not because I have an agenda here,

30:49 but because I and many other people seem to feel like

30:53 unless there's a lot of resistance training or tremendous demands like hiking,

30:58 you know, while backpacking where you burn tons of calories.

31:01 You're carrying you're basically walking like 9 hours a day, right?

31:05 Right.

31:04 That um they have a hard time getting that much protein down.

31:08 Um and I think it that's also the case if people are eating starches.

31:12 Like I eat rice and oatmeal and breads and things like that.

31:15 Not a lot of bread, but you know, it sounds like you eat starches.

31:18 I do eat oatmeal, too.

31:19 It does satiate you.

31:20 These days because I really kind of more focused a little

31:24 bit on I did want to to calorically restrict somewhat without,

31:29 you know, being unhealthy.

31:30 Obviously, you can take every stressor to a bad unhealthy place, right?

31:35 You don't want to starve yourself.

31:36 You don't want to like not eat enough food.

31:38 But um my my meals are mostly like healthy protein.

31:42 So, I have homemade turkey burgers.

31:43 I eat a lot of I eat a lot of those.

31:45 And then I eat chicken.

31:47 You know, I pasture-raised chicken.

31:49 I do I do still eat wild Alaskan salmon.

31:53 And then I'll um also mix in some like filet mignon.

31:56 Like I like grass-fed steak as well.

32:00 Yum.

31:59 Those are my protein sources.

32:00 And always I pair it with greens.

32:03 So, or like some sort of vegetable.

32:06 Most of the times it's it's greens

32:07 cuz they're the most most micronutrient dense.

32:10 And so, these days I'm eating a lot

32:12 of sauteed collard greens that are like pre-prepared.

32:15 It has garlic and onion.

32:16 And I'll put that, you know,

32:17 have that with my meal or I'll have some, you know, sauteed kale.

32:21 Sometimes I'll have a salad with it.

32:23 But the portions are smaller and like I said,

32:25 I I also do a little bit of intermittent fasting.

32:27 We can talk about that as well,

32:28 but that's kind of these days what I'm doing for my meals.

32:32 I haven't eaten as much.

32:34 Sometimes I'll eat the high protein oats.

32:36 They have this high protein oats that Have you Have you seen those?

32:39 They're pretty good.

32:40 but I I like protein foods, I like vegetables, I like fruit.

32:43 I feel very lucky to like those foods mainly.

32:46 Yeah.

32:46 And then the starch for me has to be very clean.

32:48 I like oatmeal, rice, homemade pastas I'll eat.

32:51 Like if I go out, I'll have Sometimes I'll have

32:53 some homemade pasta or or a sourdough bread or something,

32:55 but I find that most starches that are out there

32:58 in the world have a bunch other junk in them.

33:01 And I just feel lousy.

33:02 Get kind of sleepy afterwards.

33:04 I just So I Uh so it sounds like we eat pretty similarly,

33:07 although I probably eat more starches than you do.

33:09 It's the more processed types of carbohydrates that as you mentioned,

33:12 it's like you typically you don't feel good after you eat them.

33:16 And you know, part of that's the postprandial inflammatory response

33:19 cuz some of those foods are a little more inflammatory.

33:21 I mean, a lot of additives and stuff that are affecting the gut,

33:24 gut permeabilization,

33:25 you're leaking lipopolysaccharide into the bloodstream, right?

33:28 That's activating the immune system.

33:30 We used to inject I don't do any animal experiments anymore,

33:33 and I'm actually grateful to not do them.

33:35 So I didn't like working on animals,

33:37 but it was what we did until I decided to work on humans.

33:40 But we used to inject LPS um to stimulate an inflammatory response to kind

33:47 of prime a regeneration response that you

33:49 could get through macrophages and things like that.

33:51 And so LPS is a very potent way to generate local or even systemic inflammation.

33:55 I think um hearing that some starches will stimulate LPS, that's uh interesting.

34:01 Well, let me clarify.

34:02 Let me clarify.

34:03 challenging.

34:04 No, no, no, I'm I'm not challenging.

34:05 It squares with my experiences.

34:06 I'm one of these I never get stomach aches, I never get headaches.

34:08 If I do, something's badly wrong with my stomach or my head.

34:11 But if I eat certain starches, I'll be like, "Oh,

34:13 like I feel lousy." And I'm wondering if it's this.

34:16 So we have about a gram of LPS in our gut.

34:20 Mhm.

34:19 Like that's on average cuz you know, lipopolysaccharide is the outer component

34:23 of a cell membrane of gram-negative bacteria, right?

34:27 Yeah.

34:27 We have a lot of bacteria in our gut, gram-negative bacteria, right?

34:29 Trillions of bacteria in our gut.

34:30 So um when when we eat food, typically like our gut epithelial cells,

34:36 they have we have a tight junction that's holding them together.

34:38 When we eat food, they transiently open and then close.

34:41 Like it's kind of a normal response, right?

34:43 Um, the the I would say the opposite end of the spectrum

34:47 of that would be like celiac where they eat gluten or something,

34:51 it opens up and stays open and so you get like

34:53 a ton of LPS leakage into the system which causes massive inflammation.

34:58 It just happens with meals in general.

35:00 You do get somewhat of a LPS response from a meal.

35:03 Now, the type of meal does matter.

35:05 So, when I when I say refined carbohydrates,

35:08 it's not necessarily like healthy, you know, carbohydrates like vegetables.

35:13 It's like you're eating something that is

35:15 refined sugar typically with saturated fat.

35:19 So, those types of foods really cause like LPS response.

35:23 You know, it's it's it's inflammation.

35:25 It's bad it's hard on the gut.

35:27 But, the postprandial inflammatory response essentially

35:29 is that LPS getting into the system,

35:31 activating the immune system which draws the energy.

35:34 I mean, it's like it's very energy

35:36 consuming to activate your immune system, right?

35:39 Which is why That's why when you're sick, you're so sleepy, too, right?

35:42 Well, there's also cytokines that are somnogenic and promoting sleep,

35:45 but like activating your immune system requires a ton of energy.

35:49 And so, when you're constantly activating the immune system,

35:52 you know, that's an energy sink, right?

35:54 And so, you do feel tired and that's why a lot of times after a meal,

35:57 you're feeling kind of lethargic.

36:00 Do protein foods of the sort that you listed off before, um,

36:04 do they cause less opening of the tight junctions of the gut?

36:08 I think that the the big deal with the the opening

36:10 of the tight junctions in the gut is,

36:12 you know, I mean, eating eating a big meal will do it.

36:15 Eating a very like ultra-processed food meal will do it.

36:20 Interestingly enough,

36:21 just eating a bunch of saturated fat without a fiber matrix,

36:24 so like like butter.

36:25 You're just like eating butter.

36:26 Don't ever do that, but like if you just eat butter Got [laughter] it.

36:30 It that's been shown.

36:31 My niece when she was little, now she's all grown up,

36:34 but when she was little I taught her how to eat

36:37 like a little bit of Kerrygold butter and she loved it.

36:39 So then we would do this thing where we'd we'd we'd do that.

36:43 Um we won't do that, I mean.

36:45 I mean a little bit's fine, but like I'm I mean there's there's studies showing

36:48 that it does like saturated fat is hard on the gut.

36:51 Yeah.

36:51 Like I said, it's a sliding scale.

36:52 Like meals in general do it,

36:53 but it's like you would it's it's like you would think.

36:56 The healthier foods that you're eating like whole foods,

36:58 you're getting less of that LPS response.

37:00 And then of course there's gluten and that complicates the whole story,

37:03 especially for people that are celiac, right?

37:06 Cuz that's

37:06 Which is a small percentage of people that are actually celiac, right?

37:09 But a lot of people seem to believe and I believe them

37:12 that when they eat gluten they feel worse than when they don't eat gluten.

37:16 I'm sure there's some people that are sensitive to gluten that do feel worse.

37:19 And then I'm sure some of that's the nocebo effect, right?

37:22 That's been shown with gluten in in particular.

37:25 Did you have you seen that study?

37:26 Where people there's been so so there were people that think they're you know,

37:32 glu- gluten sensitive and so they were enrolled in a study

37:37 and um these individuals were separated into two groups.

37:41 One group was getting given the gluten bread

37:43 with gluten and the other group was given the bread

37:45 without gluten and the people that were given

37:47 the bread without gluten had a terrible you know,

37:51 abdominal res- like they were bloated, they felt terrible.

37:54 I mean it was all and there was no gluten in the actual bread,

37:57 but they thought there was.

37:58 So it was thought that this is a nocebo effect where

38:00 it's like the opposite of a placebo effect where you just

38:03 you're you're you're you've got that phenotype where you think things

38:06 negative are going to happen and you can make them happen.

38:10 You can change your immune system,

38:11 you can change your brain signaling and you know,

38:14 so probably a combination of both with that regard.

38:17 In addition to like the lethargy,

38:19 so we're talk- I was talking about in the context.

38:21 That's why it my, you know,

38:23 interest is like you were talking about feeling tired after a meal.

38:26 And I do think that is part of that reason for feeling sleepy, but you know,

38:30 what's interesting about LPS, you talked about injecting it to mice

38:33 and I've also done experiments injecting LPS into mice.

38:36 There have been studies where people have been injected

38:39 with an amount of LPS that is, you know, similar to what you would find your gut

38:45 releasing into your bloodstream or a placebo control,

38:48 which in this case was saline.

38:50 And individuals that were injected with the LPS,

38:53 high amounts of inflammatory markers like TNF-alpha.

38:56 I mean, we're talking like up to a 50% increase.

38:59 Ooh.

38:59 If over baseline, right?

39:00 So, high amounts of inflammation, which makes sense.

39:02 LPS is activating the immune your immune

39:04 system is like there's a foreign invader, right?

39:05 It's not a foreign invader,

39:06 it's just the food you ate that caused transient gut permeability.

39:11 [snorts] And those individuals also feel depressive

39:13 symptoms and feelings of like social withdrawal.

39:16 So, the inflammation is affecting the brain, right?

39:18 These inflammatory factors are getting in the brain,

39:20 crossing the blood-brain barrier, and affecting the way we feel.

39:23 We know now that inflammation plays a big

39:25 role in major depressive disorder and depression.

39:27 Not in all cases, but there's a subset, right?

39:29 Where it's really like it does it seems to play a big role.

39:32 In fact, interestingly,

39:33 there's been some studies showing that people that are that don't

39:36 respond to SSRIs are have very high amounts of C-reactive protein.

39:40 So, this was the biomarker for a classical biomarker for inflammation.

39:43 I would argue it's not that sensitive,

39:45 but nonetheless, it is a biomarker for inflammation.

39:48 And so, people that um don't respond to SSRIs have high amounts of inflammation,

39:52 which kind of raises this question of is there

39:55 like this subset of depression that's really inflammatory driven, right?

39:59 Um interesting.

40:00 So, so the LPS is affecting not only our our energy levels, but also our mood.

40:06 And then, you know, there's there's also evidence that so,

40:10 we know that LPS binds to LDL particles through lipid-lipid interactions.

40:16 And in fact, it's kind of part of the adaptive response.

40:20 It's why you don't want to ever go get your cholesterol measured

40:23 like after right after you're sick or had a very stressful event,

40:27 something that causes inflammation cuz you will

40:30 increase VLDL production increases and LDL production increases

40:36 and it's sort of an adaptive response to bind

40:38 that LPS to prevent it from, you know, causing more damage.

40:41 And so it actually binds to LDL particles on the apoB protein.

40:46 So apoB is a protein that is

40:49 on these lipoproteins and it's a a very important protein

40:53 because that is what's used by the LDL

40:56 receptors present on our liver to recycle LDL particles.

41:00 And so what happens is these these LPS particles are now bound to you know,

41:05 our our lipoproteins and our lipoproteins are still doing their function, right?

41:08 They're going around and they're they're they're giving, you know,

41:11 triglycerides and and fatty acids and to some

41:15 degree cholesterol to our cells that need it, right?

41:17 We're constantly making new cells and repairing and we our cells need that.

41:21 As they donate triglycerides and fatty acids, they get smaller in size.

41:25 The lipoproteins, you've probably heard of small dense LDL, right?

41:28 Like that's a very dangerous type of LDL particle.

41:30 And that's one that's kind of been donating along,

41:33 getting rid of tiger triglycerides and um whatever.

41:36 If you think about a train with cargo,

41:37 it's donating the, you know, dropping off the cargo.

41:40 And so um when it's time to get recycled back into the liver, what do you know?

41:44 The apoB protein's obscured by that LPS and it's not recycled.

41:50 And so it gets lodged into the arterial wall.

41:54 And because there's an LPS bound to this, you know,

41:58 small dense LDL particle, macrophages, which are,

42:01 as you mentioned, it's like the first line

42:03 of defense against something like a bacterial invader, right?

42:06 Comes and chews it up, right?

42:07 Gets rid of the problem.

42:08 So macrophages come in cuz they're seeing this signal

42:11 of LPS and think it's a foreign invader

42:13 when it's actually just a small dense LDL

42:15 particle bound to LPS that came from the gut,

42:18 tries to engulf it, but it can't cuz it's not bacteria,

42:21 and you get the macrophage stuck to that lipoprotein LPS,

42:26 you know, complex and you get the formation of a foam cell.

42:29 You probably heard of a foam cell.

42:31 It's the beginning of atherosclerosis.

42:32 And so, this is where gut health and the food

42:37 we eat is sort of it's linked to cardiovascular health, right?

42:41 Gut permeability, getting that LPS into our circulation is

42:44 actually not a very good thing because you're you're basically,

42:49 you know, slow dripping in that infla- inflammation, that inflammatory signal,

42:53 and it's wreaking havoc in our arteries, on our brain.

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44:21 Thank you for explaining that so clearly because

44:23 I don't think anyone has ever explained how

44:26 exactly gut health is signaling cardiovascular health or pushing

44:31 or pulling down on or raising cardiovascular health.

44:34 As a neuro guy, I think about the vagus nerve

44:37 as the primary conduit between gut and brain and it I was recalling

44:40 that LPS injected into the gut is how you actually experimentally induce

44:44 a fever because the and if you cut the vagus, no fever.

44:48 So there's this there seems to be something about

44:50 the way that the gut communicates with with the brain

44:53 and other organs that is critically dependent

44:54 on the some threshold level of of of LPS.

44:58 And thank you also for reminding us that LPS is

45:01 present in the gut cuz we have yeast in our gut,

45:03 some amount of of yeast.

45:04 You mentioned tight junctions and the way I think about tight junctions,

45:08 please correct me cuz I'm going to get some or all of this wrong,

45:11 is that essentially they form like a a cellular fence in the gut

45:15 and that transient opening or partial opening of these is a normal process,

45:19 but it sounds like after a meal some bacteria,

45:21 when you say leaks out into our system,

45:23 it's literally going into the bloodstream.

45:24 So now we're have bacteria circulating and if some

45:27 of that is small enough to get across the blood-brain barrier,

45:29 that's another way that bacteria can start

45:32 to cause inflammation at the at the brain level.

45:34 It's LPS, which is like the outer component of bacteria that have died.

45:41 Mhm.

45:40 Actual live bacteria getting in, I don't

45:42 know as much about that perhaps as well,

45:45 but I know that the LPS is getting in and I do know that the LPS,

45:49 you know, activating the immune system

45:51 and stuff in the resident glial glial cells

45:53 and stuff in the in the brain um does break down the blood-brain barrier.

45:57 It's like the early like we know neuroinflammation is really some

46:02 of the early parts of breaking down of the blood brain barrier,

46:05 which is the early stages of neurodegenerative disease.

46:08 It is how the gut is gut health is

46:10 linked to the brain and to neurodegenerative disease as well.

46:14 So, it's the inflammation I think that's really um it's it's really powerful

46:20 in terms of it's it's a driver of the aging process in general.

46:24 Like this inflammation, inflammaging, you've heard you've heard of inflammaging.

46:29 You know, I think I think now it's pretty

46:31 clear to me that is if you're thinking about

46:34 the molecular events that are leading to these hallmarks

46:37 of aging which lead to the phenotypes and you know,

46:40 frailty and the diseases, right?

46:43 Like type 2 diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's disease,

46:47 like go upstream of that and the inflammation is at the core of it.

46:51 And so, we hear this word inflammation a lot and it's like, what does it mean?

46:56 You know, and it's a lot it means a lot of things.

46:57 It's not just the gut.

46:59 The gut is a a component of it, but there's other things as well, right?

47:03 I mean, you can have stress, you know, any emotional stress,

47:07 like that can lead to inflammation, not getting enough sleep, right?

47:11 There's a lot of things that can that can lead to inflammation.

47:15 And so, it is kind of an important point to think

47:19 about is is really like trying to have your inflammation low, right?

47:24 And how do you do that?

47:25 I'm going to take three different jumping off

47:27 points here all related to what you said.

47:29 So, don't think I'm a random subject generator here.

47:32 We will get back to fasting, I promise.

47:34 Lately, you've posted a bit about glutamine as a potential

47:39 tool to perhaps buffer the immune system under times of stress.

47:44 I've also been interested in L-glutamine as a way

47:47 to reinforce tight junctions in the gut.

47:50 I don't know if that literature is robust or not.

47:52 I have to say I started taking L-glutamine years ago in times when I was working

47:57 a lot and not sleeping enough because someone

47:59 told me it would help me not get sick.

48:01 And indeed, I didn't get sick as much

48:04 as the imaginary control experiment that I never got to do.

48:07 Meaning, I don't know if it helped or not,

48:09 but I continued to take L-glutamine when I'm feeling run down.

48:13 I take a couple of other things, too.

48:14 But could you tell us about how or if or how L-glutamine is important

48:19 for gut health and if and how L-glutamine

48:21 might be helpful for reinforcing the immune system?

48:25 There's not a ton of evidence in terms of like what's

48:29 in the scientific literature supporting these statements, but there is some,

48:33 you know, and it's enough to kind of go,

48:34 well, I'm going to try to maybe experiment with it.

48:36 So, you know, I first became interested in in glutamine

48:39 because when I was doing my graduate research,

48:42 I was doing a lot of cancer metabolism studies

48:44 and I would do nutrient withdrawal and I would,

48:46 you know, remove glucose from cancer cells and see what would happen.

48:49 And it's like, okay, well,

48:50 I would get I would remove glucose from from, you know,

48:53 lymphoma cancer cells in the Petri dish and a lot of them would die,

48:56 but they wouldn't all die.

48:57 And I was like, why aren't they all dying?

48:59 Turns out, oh, they had glutamine there.

49:00 So, glutamine was enough to sustain them.

49:03 Um and and so, glutamine can be converted into many things.

49:07 So, glutamine can be an amino acid, right?

49:09 It's an amino acid.

49:10 Glutamine can be converted into the the Krebs cycle,

49:15 so it can be converted into intermediates

49:17 that are used to make energy by the mitochondria.

49:20 And glutamine can be converted into glutamate, right?

49:22 Neurotransmitter, right?

49:23 So, there's a lot of pathways and different fates for glutamine.

49:26 So, I became interested in in that because it was like,

49:28 oh, glutamine's important for the survival of these cancer cells.

49:32 Then I was doing a lot of activating immune cells studies as, you know,

49:36 all my my graduate advisor is an immunologist by training,

49:41 and so I was also doing that.

49:42 Turns out glutamine was essential for the activation of immune cells.

49:45 So, that was kind of always in the back of my mind.

49:48 And then in my postdoc, I did my postdoc with Dr.

49:52 Bruce Ames and my colleague Dr.

49:53 Mark Shigenaga was doing a lot of gut work and this is why

49:56 I know a lot about the LPS in the gut like it's from him.

49:59 Like brilliant guy.

50:00 He's now a photographer like not in science at all but brilliant

50:03 guy and did a lot of really amazing experiments looking at, you know,

50:07 gut permeability and things that can help buffer, you know,

50:11 gut permeability and one of those things were glutamine.

50:14 So, glutamine can get converted into these intermediates

50:19 that are used by mitochondria in the gut

50:21 epithelial cells and so this is like an easy

50:23 source of energy as well for the gut.

50:26 Now, these are all animal studies, right?

50:27 So, take it with a grain of salt, right?

50:28 Like cuz at some point, you know, in my in my opinion animal studies

50:33 are really important for understanding the mechanism

50:37 behind why things work and we need human studies, you know, as well.

50:40 Looking at the totality of evidence is important.

50:43 It's the human studies that were lacking.

50:45 There's not a ton of them there.

50:46 The ones that I have found more compelling, um,

50:50 not necessarily I mean with the gut health it's it's,

50:52 you know, it's sparse with humans.

50:55 Um, I found more compelling with respect to you glutamine in human studies was

51:01 the immune system and this is where

51:02 I started putting connecting the dots, right?

51:04 Where I started coming across this literature of these endurance

51:06 athletes who do get a higher amount of respiratory tract infections,

51:11 you know, like when I mean endurance athletes I

51:13 mean these guys that are like outrunning marathons all year.

51:16 Like they're just constantly training for a marathon, right?

51:18 And so they're really like they're putting a lot of demand, right?

51:22 Energetic expenditure is happening at a really high rate.

51:26 So, um, they're they're more prone to respiratory infections and there's a few

51:30 studies out there showing that if

51:31 these athletes take a higher dose of glutamine,

51:33 I think it's like 30 g or something high like that, that they had

51:37 a lower incidence of respiratory tract infections

51:39 than the ones that weren't doing it.

51:41 And then I went back to my oh,

51:42 I know that glutamine is really important for T-cell

51:44 activation and I was like I'm going to take

51:46 this because being being a being a mom and having

51:49 a child that's bringing everything home like a vector,

51:52 you know, you're like desperate.

51:54 You're the experiment.

51:55 exactly.

51:55 And and I never used to get sick, ever.

51:58 Like I would never get sick.

51:59 And then all of a sudden I was getting sick like three times a year.

52:01 And I was like, do I have cancer?

52:02 Like what's going on?

52:03 Like I I literally was like worried.

52:05 Um and and then I started taking glutamine.

52:09 Now, I take it just I only take 5 g on a daily basis, but if if my son's sick,

52:14 if there's any exposure, if it's like during the season,

52:17 if I'm traveling, I go up to 15, I go up to 20.

52:20 Cuz it can be a little hard on the gut, right?

52:22 all at once.

52:23 Not all at once.

52:23 I usually do it like in fives.

52:25 So, I do 5 g, 5 g, 5 g.

52:27 And you know, I have to with the caveat of I

52:30 do that, but I also take a lot of creatine as well.

52:33 And so, I don't know which one or both, but like I really don't get sick.

52:38 I'm not getting sick.

52:38 And even even if it's brought home in my house, I'm not getting sick.

52:41 And maybe it's a placebo.

52:43 And you know what?

52:43 I am A-OK with that because placebo effect is real.

52:46 As long as I'm not getting sick.

52:48 Um so, I do think I think with the glutamine, you know,

52:50 it's not something that I would feel comfortable

52:52 saying that it's there's a lot of evidence,

52:55 it's overwhelming and with confidence that it's improving

52:57 gut health and it's improving, you mean you know,

53:00 it's going to help give your immune cells energy,

53:02 particularly if they need to be activated,

53:03 you know, upon exposure to any pathogen.

53:06 But I feel like it's worth experimenting with.

53:09 Um perhaps maybe if someone has colon cancer,

53:11 that would be more of a concern cuz I

53:13 did mention that cancer cells Cancer cells love everything,

53:15 anything that's good for you.

53:17 Right?

53:17 Folate, I mean, if you don't have enough folate,

53:20 you can cause double stranded breaks to your DNA,

53:22 which lead to mutations that lead to cancer.

53:24 But if you have cancer and you take a bunch of folate,

53:26 you need folate to make new DNA.

53:28 And so, they like the folate, right?

53:29 So, it's like It's an abnormal growth.

53:31 So, anything that's associated with drugs, mTOR.

53:33 I saw the recent study on taurine,

53:35 which scared a lot of people cuz taurine's in a lot of energy drinks,

53:37 but that was an in vitro study.

53:39 Um Um, yes, I was going to ask, you know, um,

53:42 is is there increased cancer risk if you're

53:45 supplementing with glutamine because cancer cells like glutamine?

53:49 my personal opinion, I'm obviously not a medical physician.

53:51 This is not a prescription.

53:53 It's just my opinion.

53:54 I I personally am not scared of getting cancer from taking glutamine.

54:00 If I had a colon tumor in a tumor in my colon,

54:02 the the first site that the glutamine is seeing,

54:05 maybe the liver as well, since that's also the next step,

54:08 but uh barring like having a tumor already in my liver or in my colon,

54:14 those would be the only, you know,

54:15 types of situations that I would be worried about taking glutamine.

54:18 I don't think it's going to cause cancer, right?

54:20 Now, I guess the question is like what if you don't know you have

54:23 Well, hopefully the cost will come down on whole body MRIs.

54:25 Actually, the cost is coming down on whole body MRIs.

54:28 Hopefully, more people are able to get those.

54:30 It's not just such a high-end exclusive thing in the near future.

54:33 Kind of like blood draws.

54:34 Used to be like like panels of blood testing,

54:36 you only got them if you really needed them.

54:38 Now, the cost of blood draws is really low.

54:42 Right.

54:41 So, hopefully, people will be more aware.

54:43 Yeah, I I will take a tablespoon of glutamine once

54:47 or twice or three times a day if I'm feeling run down.

54:50 You mentioned being exposed to pathogens from vectors of different sorts.

54:54 Before we went on mic, we were talking about NAC, N-acetylcysteine.

54:58 Um, I take it once a day uh consistently,

55:01 but I'll take it three times a day if I'm traveling

55:04 a lot and because I'm around sick people when I travel, especially in winter.

55:08 Um, or if I feel like I'm getting run down.

55:10 And there the data are pretty interesting.

55:11 There's at least one study uh showing that it reduced

55:14 flu transmission um where people were deliberately exposed to flu.

55:18 I think it took the number of people that contracted flu

55:20 compared to the placebo group somewhere from the high 70% area.

55:25 I don't remember the exact number now.

55:26 We'll put a link to the study down to maybe high 20s,

55:30 which is pretty impressive.

55:31 And then ER doc came on this podcast uh Roger Schwell,

55:35 who um and said he was a big proponent

55:37 of NAC system for people that are around sick people.

55:41 Do you take NAC?

55:42 So my only concern with taking on a daily

55:45 basis is it is a pretty powerful antioxidant and you

55:49 know I think that we need to understand like

55:54 antioxidants and the opposite we should be generating oxidation right?

55:59 Like It's not it's not like oxidation is bad.

56:02 It's bad when it's constant slow drip oxidation that's damaging

56:07 you know other parts of our body DNA proteins lipids.

56:11 Some oxidation you want like if you're exercising right?

56:13 There's a burst of oxidation.

56:15 the adaptation.

56:16 the adaptations.

56:17 And so my concern would be for one maybe timing it

56:19 around your exercise so not taking it close to when you're

56:23 exercising and these studies come out of you know studies

56:25 that have been done with high dose vitamin E plus vitamin C.

56:29 I haven't seen a lot of vitamin

56:31 C studies alone that are blunting exercise adaptations.

56:35 There's maybe one at a high dose.

56:37 Most of the time it's vitamin C and vitamin E vitamin E alpha tocopherol.

56:41 When I say high dose usually it's 400 IUs just to give

56:43 you a reference point the RDA is like 24 IUs or something.

56:46 So we're talking high dose.

56:47 supplement can be 200 to 800.

56:50 So it wouldn't be hard to blunt that exercise effect but accidentally.

56:54 Yeah, I don't take vitamin E.

56:55 It spiked my prostate specific antigen which I was

56:59 told is a is a known effect among urologists.

57:02 trial was done.

57:03 So the select trial was um was looking at selenium

57:07 and vitamin E and if it could slow the progression of prostate

57:10 cancer and it turned out that um the opposite was

57:13 found and it was really kind of due to this high

57:15 dose of alpha tocopherol which also has other effects of um

57:20 lowering another type of vitamin E in the body called

57:22 gamma tocopherol which is anti-inflammatory and I think that has

57:26 something to do with inflammation actually can increase the PSA right?

57:31 So anyways um the point here is that with NAC, my only concern would be,

57:37 you know, blunting the the oxidation that you're

57:41 getting from beneficial cuz I know you're highly active.

57:44 I'm training hard.

57:45 I don't want my training to be short-circuited from NAC.

57:47 I'm perfectly happy to only take NAC if I'm

57:49 feeling run down or exposed to um illnesses around me,

57:53 or I feel like maybe I'm coming down with something.

57:54 I take it, but it's mostly because of I

57:57 wasn't familiar with the flu influenza data that's interesting.

58:00 I was just It's good for lung health, too.

58:02 Like so, although if smokers take it,

58:05 I think it has the opposite effect where again,

58:07 it's like the can't the the precancerous cells are using it to their benefit.

58:11 You know, we used to think antioxidants, oh, it's so good, you know,

58:13 just more more more, and it turns out it's not the case, right?

58:17 Like and that's why a lot of these other

58:18 types of hormetic stressors or plant phytochemicals,

58:22 they're actually generating an antioxidant response endogenously

58:26 in our body by activating these antioxidant pathways,

58:30 which are so much more powerful than

58:31 what you would get from an antioxidant, right?

58:33 And so, that's kind of And it's not like you don't want some antioxidants.

58:36 It's just like you don't want to overdose on taking too much NAC and too

58:41 much vitamin C and too much vitamin

58:42 E because there's also something called reductive stress.

58:46 So, we know about oxidative stress.

58:48 Oxidative stress is when you're you know, you're you're again,

58:51 you're you're causing these these reactive oxygen

58:53 species to damage things like your DNA, for example, and over time,

58:57 eventually that happens in a part of the gene

58:59 that can be oncogenic, lead to cancer.

59:02 Well, reductive stress is is like the opposite of that.

59:05 So, it's like too much of the um reducing equivalents, like the, you know,

59:09 the NADH, the NADPH, the you know, so and it also has negative effects.

59:14 So, you kind of don't want to go too far on either ends of the of the spectrum.

59:18 But also, you want to instead of having this like slow leaking

59:23 effect of these pro-oxidants where that are happening from eating a bad diet,

59:27 from you know, inflammation, things like that.

59:29 You want it to be a short burst where you

59:31 switch it on, you have the adaptation, it's off, right?

59:34 And the adaptation, the adaptation happens in the recovery period, right?

59:38 When you're For example, if you exercise,

59:39 it's a big burst of reactive oxygen species

59:42 that is beneficial and you want it, right?

59:44 And you don't want to blunt those adaptations and So,

59:47 that's that's kind of my concern with daily dosing of NAC.

59:50 Great.

59:50 I don't cold plunge in the 68 hours after

59:54 resistance training for exactly the reason you're talking about.

59:56 Yeah, I want the inflammation.

59:57 I want the increased blood flow.

59:58 I don't want to short-circuit that.

59:59 I'm perfectly happy to only take NAC under conditions where

1:00:02 I'm run down and and that's also when I'll take glutamine.

1:00:07 If you take L-glutamine regularly,

1:00:09 I I personally observe that I get stronger

1:00:12 um at a steady state of of starch intake.

1:00:15 And I don't like dropping starches too low cuz I get weak.

1:00:19 Yeah.

1:00:18 And I also can't sleep as well if my starches are too low.

1:00:22 I just I'm too wired.

1:00:24 Yeah.

1:00:24 There's a There was a new study on on eating starches and improving sleep.

1:00:28 Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that because for several

1:00:30 years I talked about that on the podcast and people said,

1:00:32 "Oh, you know, he's gorging himself with pasta and then

1:00:34 passing out and that's the worst time." I wasn't saying that.

1:00:37 I'm saying that if you're not If you're running like crazy,

1:00:41 I'll hear from marathoners and ultra people

1:00:42 and people who are doing a million things.

1:00:44 They'll say, "I'm not sleeping well." And they're exercising like crazy.

1:00:46 It's like, "Well, when was the last time you had a bowl of pasta?" Like, "Oh,

1:00:49 no, I don't eat pasta." And like, and then they'll have some rice or some pasta.

1:00:53 Like, "Oh, I slept like a baby." And they were having it at lunch.

1:00:56 And I just think that that the brain doesn't

1:00:58 shut down well when you have high levels of cortisol.

1:01:00 And the cortisol-starch thing is an interesting one.

1:01:03 I'm so glad you brought this up because I

1:01:05 think um this is something I did want to talk

1:01:07 about really and it has to do with stop

1:01:09 eating 3 hours before bed for that very reason.

1:01:12 So, there was a new even a new study but there's been several

1:01:15 studies now really showing that this is

1:01:17 important for that cardiovascular reset, right?

1:01:20 Your parasympathetic activity is supposed to go higher.

1:01:23 You're in your rest and recovery phase, right?

1:01:26 When you're eating food, that's the sympathetic activity, right?

1:01:29 You're that's activating the sympathetic nervous system.

1:01:32 As you're eating, yeah.

1:01:33 Yeah.

1:01:34 Yeah.

1:01:33 And even as you're digesting.

1:01:35 So, you have to think about it.

1:01:35 Like, you digest it, what it takes like 5 or so hours to fully finish about

1:01:40 Yeah, depending on the meal, yeah.

1:01:41 Depending on the meal, right.

1:01:42 So, if you're eating, you know, right before you go to bed,

1:01:45 you are you are you are not in that parasym- sympathetic activity,

1:01:49 you know, part of the part of the, you know, the cycle that you want to be in.

1:01:53 So, um there was a new even a new study that I shared like,

1:01:56 I don't know, couple days ago even,

1:01:58 showing that if you stop eating 3 hours before bed,

1:02:02 so these people were actually um this interesting they're they had their blood

1:02:06 pressure measured for starting in the mid-afternoon

1:02:10 all the way throughout the night.

1:02:11 This is the first study that really

1:02:12 not just one endpoint looking at blood pressure,

1:02:14 but just measuring it continuously.

1:02:16 I don't know if it was every 15 minutes or something like that.

1:02:18 But, um it was found that there during sleep,

1:02:22 if they had stopped eating 3 hours before bed versus

1:02:24 the group that did not stop eating 3 hours before bed,

1:02:27 their blood pressure dipped like lower.

1:02:30 So, you get that you get that barrel reflex dipping, right?

1:02:32 So, this is like part of the parasympathetic activation.

1:02:35 As you know, very important for you know, the blood pressure to go down,

1:02:38 heart rate went down like, you know, much much lower.

1:02:42 And that reset is so so important for cardiovascular health.

1:02:46 I think what was found was it was something like um

1:02:49 translated to like 20% lower risk of cardiovascular events, like heart attacks.

1:02:54 So, it's really pretty significant.

1:02:55 Yeah.

1:02:56 And it really is an easy thing to do to think about stopping eating,

1:03:00 you know, 3 hours before you go to bed.

1:03:02 Like, that's that's something I think that is not that hard to implement.

1:03:06 And it will improve your sleep as well as your cardiovascular health.

1:03:10 Although, I think in that study, I don't know that sleep was really it was

1:03:12 subjective and I don't think it really wasn't improved more,

1:03:14 but other studies have found that as well.

1:03:16 That sleep does improve.

1:03:17 I know Sachin Panda, he's been on my podcast, your podcast.

1:03:20 He's had studies showing that it seemed like stop stop

1:03:23 eating 3 hours before bed really does seem to improve sleep.

1:03:26 But this parasympathetic activation, you know,

1:03:29 you don't want to have a meal right before you bed because

1:03:32 you want you want to be in the rest and recovery part, right?

1:03:35 So.

1:03:36 Yeah, I think people hear uh and I understand

1:03:39 why the nomenclature and the buzzwords of, you know,

1:03:42 fight or flight for sympathetic and rest and digest for parasympathetic.

1:03:45 But yeah, the evidence shows eating stimulates the sympathetic nervous system.

1:03:49 It's not a stress event, but it it's a it requires energy.

1:03:53 Anything that requires energy raises body

1:03:54 temperature and your body's doing work.

1:03:56 It's an awake event, right?

1:03:57 It's an awake you don't eat while you're sleeping.

1:04:00 Yeah, and that's why these phrases,

1:04:02 while I don't demonize anyone for creating the, you know,

1:04:04 fight or flight and well,

1:04:06 I mean, there's ways that you want your sympathetic

1:04:07 nervous system activated that are not about fight or flight.

1:04:10 Like I actually think that people just got the first

1:04:12 hour of their day more active and energized bright light, exercise,

1:04:16 caffeine if you're me and Lord knows

1:04:18 I'm grateful that caffeine exists in the first

1:04:20 hour of the day or first hours if you can't manage that because of schedule.

1:04:24 And then the last hour of the day was strongly parasympathetic.

1:04:27 I mean, everything would get better without having to think a ton about exactly

1:04:31 how you're doing that cuz on a given day you just do what you can.

1:04:34 And that's what you want, right?

1:04:35 I mean, so cortisol is circadian dependent as you know.

1:04:39 I mean, in the like early morning of early hours of the morning,

1:04:43 that's when you want it to peak, right?

1:04:44 The part of the awakening response.

1:04:46 Like you want it to go up.

1:04:47 And it's it's interesting.

1:04:49 I I the reason I'm going on this is cuz

1:04:51 it's a little bit of a um soapbox for me, but so with with the with the cortisol

1:04:56 activation um people don't realize this, you know,

1:05:00 obviously it's a hormone and it's binding to two different receptors.

1:05:04 There's the glucocorticoid receptor

1:05:05 and then there's the mineralocorticoid receptor

1:05:08 and both of those um when cortisol binds to it,

1:05:11 they go into the nucleus of the cell, and they're changing the expression.

1:05:15 So, they're activating genes and deactivating genes,

1:05:18 like 20% of the human genome.

1:05:20 It's a large percentage, right?

1:05:22 And this is on multiple different organs.

1:05:23 So, it's it Cortisol has a very important role, and you want that peak.

1:05:28 You want that spike, right?

1:05:29 That's what you want, and then you want it to shut off.

1:05:31 And there things that can activate it, obviously,

1:05:33 like in the morning, going out, bright light exposure, as you mentioned.

1:05:36 Like that's very important for that cortisol awakening response.

1:05:39 But you can also, actually,

1:05:40 like like intensity intense exercise can switch it on.

1:05:44 Um but what's interesting, and so can intermittent fasting,

1:05:47 that it What's interesting is there's studies

1:05:49 from Mark Mattson's lab showing that, you know,

1:05:53 the types of of of stressors that are beneficial,

1:05:57 these hormetic stressors, like exercise, like, you know,

1:06:00 intermittent fasting, um perhaps even cold exposure,

1:06:04 like these types of exposures change the receptor density of the receptors.

1:06:09 So, if you If you look at what activates cortisol in a negative way,

1:06:12 chronic stress, let's say emotional,

1:06:15 financial, psychological, um chronic sleep deprivation,

1:06:18 like that bad type of stress, you're getting a You're not getting a big spike,

1:06:21 you're getting a slow drip of it.

1:06:23 And so, what happens is when you have that type of stress,

1:06:25 you're increasing the glucocorticoid receptors,

1:06:27 and you're decreasing the mineralocorticoid receptors.

1:06:31 There's a different biological response in the brain, in the hypothalamus,

1:06:35 but also in you know, other organs as well,

1:06:38 when you're when you're activating cortisol through a beneficial type of stress,

1:06:42 the hormetic stressors, like like intermittent fasting, like exercise.

1:06:45 Um I believe probably deliberate cold exposure as well.

1:06:49 Where um it's a different biological response, and also, if you think about it,

1:06:54 you know, you actually want cortisol to do its, you know, function.

1:06:58 You want it to change the expression of this.

1:06:59 That's what it's supposed to do, right?

1:07:00 The problem is is when you have that slow drip, then, you know,

1:07:04 not only are your your increasing They're changing the receptor,

1:07:07 you know, activation, but also they become resistant to the cortisol.

1:07:10 And so you're not getting the benefits.

1:07:12 You You know, cortisol represses inflammation, right?

1:07:15 It's It suppresses the immune system.

1:07:16 But like So you're not getting that anti-inflammatory effect from cortisol.

1:07:20 It's being dysregulated.

1:07:21 And that's what you don't want.

1:07:22 You don't want cortisol to be dysregulated in terms

1:07:25 of like the genes that it's supposed to activate or deactivate.

1:07:28 You want it to be doing what it's supposed to.

1:07:29 It's supposed to regulate.

1:07:30 We're supposed to have the cortisol, you know, activation response.

1:07:33 So, um, anyway, I that's something that I kind of want to clear in people's

1:07:38 minds cuz I feel like a lot of people get worried about oh my gosh,

1:07:41 I'm doing, you know, hit and it's activating my cortisol.

1:07:44 Well, that's fine.

1:07:46 It's like, you know, I mean, I guess if you do too much hit, right?

1:07:49 You could always take something to the extreme.

1:07:50 Okay, with that caveat, obviously I'm not talking about that.

1:07:53 But with that caveat, like you do you you want your body to be able

1:07:56 to turn it on and then turn it off and have the adaptation,

1:07:59 have the response, right?

1:08:01 And like I said, it's a different biological response than than the chronic

1:08:05 type of cortisol activation that you get with the bad types of stress.

1:08:09 Yeah, I guess same goes for intermittent fasting.

1:08:11 And maybe you could share with us what your intermittent fasting protocol is.

1:08:14 I know that recently cortisol has been

1:08:17 like increasingly demonized as the stress hormone,

1:08:20 stress hormone, and people saw pictures of people

1:08:22 with Cushing's disease, which is, you know,

1:08:24 a drastically elevated cortisol and the moon face and the excessive

1:08:28 visceral fat and and this this sort of um,

1:08:32 fear-mongering around cortisol was particularly directed toward women.

1:08:36 And this entered the health fitness space because I think in an appropriate way,

1:08:41 I'll just be very direct here.

1:08:42 I don't like I no longer tap dance around who said, you know,

1:08:44 what In a very appropriate way, um, that I appreciate, uh, Dr.

1:08:48 Stacy Sims came on the podcast and she said, "Listen,

1:08:51 some women shouldn't train fasted because they

1:08:55 don't feel well when they train fasted and their cortisol is too high and so

1:08:59 forth." That captured a lot of people's experience.

1:09:03 a lot of women in particular, but some men certainly were like, "Yes.

1:09:06 Oh my god, thank you.

1:09:07 Thank you.

1:09:08 Thank you.

1:09:08 Thank you." But then the they the message got contorted, right?

1:09:13 As it does, right?

1:09:14 And then it became women shouldn't train fasted.

1:09:17 And then we had a Lauren Clenso Simple on this podcast who's a, you know,

1:09:20 trained as a PhD, she has a background in nutrition,

1:09:22 physiology, strength training coach, etc.

1:09:24 And she said, "No, listen,

1:09:25 you can train fasted or not fasted as a woman or a man,

1:09:28 it's a kind of your preference.

1:09:30 But that we don't need to fear these cortisol spikes.

1:09:32 And forgive me for going long here,

1:09:33 but I think it is important that people hear this, um,

1:09:35 again, which is there's also this idea

1:09:38 that deliberate cold exposure increases cortisol, but when you look at the data,

1:09:42 it definitely increases adrenaline and peripheral dopamine and probably,

1:09:46 I'll go on record, it probably central dopamine,

1:09:49 although we don't have as good evidence for that yet.

1:09:51 But their evidence points to the fact

1:09:54 that deliberate cold exposure lowers cortisol.

1:09:57 So this then, you know,

1:09:59 because and I again I think Stacy appropriately said a lot

1:10:03 of women who want to use cold shouldn't go as cold,

1:10:06 but the message got contorted and it became women

1:10:10 shouldn't do deliberate cold exposure because of the cortisol increase.

1:10:13 And so part of the reason I'm going long here

1:10:14 is I'm trying to correct the narrative on her behalf.

1:10:17 She said, "Do what works for you." Right?

1:10:20 And that's what Lauren's saying and I'm guessing,

1:10:22 um, that's what you'll say as well.

1:10:23 Um, but I just need to get that out there because the message

1:10:25 has gotten totally pretzel twisted up and cortisol is neither good nor bad.

1:10:31 You want it high in the morning, you want it low at night, um, in general.

1:10:34 Um, it sounds like you train fasted.

1:10:37 I listen to how I feel.

1:10:38 That's exactly what I do.

1:10:39 So what what your podcast guests

1:10:42 and and the researchers are talking about is exactly.

1:10:45 There are times when I wake up in the morning and I'm like,

1:10:47 I need to eat something before I work out.

1:10:50 And I do.

1:10:51 Um, but I oftentimes do train fasted

1:10:54 one because I am practicing intermittent fasting again,

1:10:57 but I do it I'm not like starving myself and like I said,

1:11:00 the reason there's multiple reasons I do it.

1:11:02 One reason is because it really did help me lose the belly fat,

1:11:06 which is a visceral fat, which is like the worst kind of fat you can have.

1:11:09 And we can talk more about that.

1:11:11 But the second reason is I love the cognitive

1:11:13 benefits I have in the morning with it.

1:11:15 And it's the main reason I do it.

1:11:16 And so there are many times when I do train fasted,

1:11:18 but I am not out running 15 miles.

1:11:21 Most of my my like I said, my sessions are about an hour long.

1:11:25 And am I taking a little bit of a performance hit with the high intensity?

1:11:29 Probably.

1:11:30 Probably yes, but it's not much to matter for me.

1:11:34 And you do burn a little bit more fat if you train fasted.

1:11:37 I mean, that's known.

1:11:38 You will if it is a longer session,

1:11:40 you will take an a performance enhancement hit.

1:11:42 That is also known, right?

1:11:44 So I think it really does come down to like what is your goal?

1:11:48 How do you feel?

1:11:49 And and then you kind of go with that.

1:11:51 And I I completely agree.

1:11:53 Like there are times when you know,

1:11:55 I'm on my cycle and I feel fine and I'm working out just fine.

1:11:59 And there are other times that I'm like I don't feel good.

1:12:01 Like I'm going to I'm going to take it easier.

1:12:03 I still train, I just you listen to your body.

1:12:05 And I that's a pretty easy, I think, rule of thumb.

1:12:09 Sometimes people like to complicate things, you know,

1:12:12 I don't there's lots of reasons why I don't we need to get into that.

1:12:15 I have theories, yeah, I have theories, but they're not important right now.

1:12:18 No, it's not important, yeah.

1:12:19 So so yeah, I do I do train fasted and it is

1:12:22 for me it is is helped me tremendously change my body composition.

1:12:26 Like I said, I'm in a different part

1:12:28 of my life than perhaps a 30-year-old woman is, right?

1:12:30 So when I was 30, I mean, like I I didn't have to train fasted.

1:12:33 It was it was it was easy to keep,

1:12:36 you know, the the belly fat, the visceral fat lower.

1:12:39 Hormonal changes are do play a role in the way your body

1:12:43 so estrogen plays a role in telling your body how to store fat.

1:12:47 So subcutaneous fat would be the kind

1:12:48 of fat that you can just like pinch, right?

1:12:50 The the fat that we see, the visceral fat,

1:12:53 that's that deep fat that's lining your organs.

1:12:56 It's often belly fat, you know, and it's lining the intestines, the liver,

1:13:01 you know, it's it's it's it's it's almost like an endocrine organ.

1:13:04 I mean, cuz it is secreting hormones.

1:13:07 It's secreting inflammatory factors.

1:13:09 It's metabolically active.

1:13:11 It's constantly breaking down triglycerides.

1:13:13 It's associated with double the increased risk double the risk of early death.

1:13:18 Um people that have high visceral fat have 44% higher chance of having cancer,

1:13:22 many different types of cancers.

1:13:24 Wow.

1:13:23 It's huge.

1:13:24 It's huge.

1:13:25 You know, and and and of course insulin resistance

1:13:27 is the number one problem with visceral fat, right?

1:13:30 And I'd love to to talk about that, but um if you want,

1:13:33 I mean, we can we can get into that.

1:13:34 Yeah, it's it's so with the visceral fat and like I said, you know,

1:13:38 visceral fat is something if you really directly

1:13:40 want to measure it, you do a DEXA scan.

1:13:42 But, you know, for the average person that isn't

1:13:45 going to go out and do a DEXA scan, waist circumference is a proxy.

1:13:48 It's used in a lot of studies.

1:13:50 So, women that have a waist circumference of 35 in or above

1:13:54 are considered to have a higher amount of visceral fat.

1:13:56 Men that have a waist circumference of 40 in or above

1:13:59 are considered to have higher amount of visceral fat.

1:14:01 It's also that belly fat.

1:14:02 Like you can you can you just know, right?

1:14:05 Um interestingly, like 70% of women over the age of 50 have high visceral fat.

1:14:11 50% of men over the age of 50, too.

1:14:13 You know, again, it coming down to women go through menopause.

1:14:17 Estrogen plays an important role in telling the body, you know,

1:14:21 to store the fat subcutaneously rather than viscerally deep around organs.

1:14:26 And so, as women transition to perimenopause,

1:14:29 you know, that the years before menopause and menopause,

1:14:32 it it their their estrogen goes down,

1:14:33 and that does change the way the body stores fat.

1:14:36 And any woman that's going through either of those stages knows it.

1:14:40 And it's also why you see often women over

1:14:42 the age of 50 with more belly fat, right?

1:14:45 I mean, that's something that I think is it's hard to deny.

1:14:49 But, um it's it's one of the reasons

1:14:52 why I kind of went back to practicing intermittent

1:14:55 fasting because there's a there's a couple of ways

1:14:57 that you can really powerfully lose visceral fat,

1:15:01 and one of them is doing aerobic exercise,

1:15:03 high-intensity interval training also really powerfully can do it,

1:15:06 but also being in a caloric deficit.

1:15:08 And I think when you start to get the combination of both,

1:15:11 that's what really worked for me.

1:15:13 It's crazy how quickly you can gain it based on your diet as well.

1:15:17 So, it is different from the subcutaneous fat in many ways.

1:15:22 I mentioned it's secreting these inflammatory molecules.

1:15:25 It's, you know, hormones,

1:15:26 but it's also constantly breaking down triglycerides into free fatty acids.

1:15:32 And the location of it is very

1:15:33 dangerous because it's right surrounding the liver, right?

1:15:36 It's this deep organ fat.

1:15:39 And that's very close to the portal vein.

1:15:41 And so, you're constantly getting this sort

1:15:43 of mainlining free fatty acids to the liver.

1:15:46 And visceral fat is very different from subcutaneous fat

1:15:49 because it doesn't respond to insulin like subcutaneous fat does.

1:15:53 In other words, when you have a meal, you eat a carbohydrate meal,

1:15:56 and you basically your body increases insulin

1:15:59 to help take it up glucose into your liver,

1:16:02 muscle, adipose tissue, lipolysis shuts down, right?

1:16:05 So, okay, no longer am I going to break down these fats,

1:16:07 it's time to use this energy, right?

1:16:10 Visceral fat doesn't respond to insulin, so it just keeps going, right?

1:16:13 And these free fatty acids, because they're going right to the liver,

1:16:17 uh it's it's essentially antagonizing the insulin receptors.

1:16:21 So, it causes insulin receptors to become more resistant to insulin.

1:16:27 And this is part of why people with high visceral fat,

1:16:30 by the way, you can gain visceral fat without gaining a pound.

1:16:34 And we can talk about those studies.

1:16:35 Like, people people are skinny and can have high amounts of visceral fat.

1:16:40 You've You've heard of like lean metabolically unhealthy but lean individuals.

1:16:45 Those people exist and so you can have a high

1:16:47 amount of visceral fat but not really look like you do.

1:16:52 So, when you know, obviously the insulin

1:16:54 resistance is a problem for many reasons,

1:16:56 but it also plays a role in those energy crashes that you experience, right?

1:17:02 And that's kind of like some of the first signs

1:17:04 of insulin resistance actually have to do with what you're feeling.

1:17:07 So, we talked about lethargy, right?

1:17:08 So, you know, the the inflammation that's being generated

1:17:11 from these this visceral fat constantly making these, you know,

1:17:16 pro-inflammatory compounds are and it's an energy sink, right?

1:17:19 So, you do constantly feel tired,

1:17:22 but also because your cells are becoming insulin resistant,

1:17:26 when you have a high glucose meal and you're not responding,

1:17:30 the body kind of overcompensates and produces more insulin.

1:17:34 So, it's like I we got to get this blood glucose out of our system, right?

1:17:37 It can cause a lot of damage if it sits around there.

1:17:39 And so, you make more insulin and then what happens is you

1:17:42 your blood glucose goes way low cuz it was like this overcompensation, right?

1:17:46 And then you feel a crash.

1:17:47 You feel like this crash and that signals to the, you know,

1:17:50 hypothalamus part of the brain, I need energy, right?

1:17:53 So, then you you sort of crave you

1:17:55 get those cravings for those calorically energetic dense foods.

1:17:59 What I'm talking about is like

1:18:00 the experience of like you know, insulin resistance.

1:18:04 And what's interesting is that you can cause someone to gain

1:18:08 visceral fat and and their brain could become insulin resistant.

1:18:11 So, we think a lot about insulin resistance in the muscle,

1:18:14 liver, your brain also can become insulin resistant quite quickly actually.

1:18:19 So, um insulin's very important in the brain

1:18:22 for a lot of reasons as you know, but you know,

1:18:24 a couple of the things relative to what we're or relevant to what we're

1:18:27 talking about would be one is it does act on the hypothalamus and help,

1:18:32 you know, tell it to basically um stop eating.

1:18:37 Be satiated.

1:18:38 Like I took a meal in, okay, like I'm going to be satiated.

1:18:40 But it also plays a role in energy storage

1:18:42 and telling the the body how to store the energy.

1:18:45 And so when your brain becomes insulin resistant, it's not doing that.

1:18:49 And so you're not being satiated, so you eat more,

1:18:51 and you're storing the fat more viscerally.

1:18:54 And there was a study that was published actually quite recently.

1:18:59 I covered this in a in a recent newsletter.

1:19:01 It was a really interesting study cuz it was healthy young men,

1:19:04 and researchers put them on a little bit of a calorically dense,

1:19:10 so it was like they were eating 1,200 to 1,500 more calories a day,

1:19:13 and it was high saturated fat, high sugar.

1:19:15 So it was a processed foods,

1:19:16 ultra-processed foods, like, you know, ultimate, right?

1:19:19 That's a lot of extra calories.

1:19:20 extra calories for 5 days.

1:19:22 It is.

1:19:23 But what happened was their they did

1:19:26 cause their brains to become insulin resistant,

1:19:28 and they didn't gain weight, but they gained visceral fat.

1:19:31 And they started gaining fat around their liver.

1:19:33 And that's something that happens as well

1:19:34 because visceral fat is surrounding liver,

1:19:36 you're getting a lot of free fatty acids,

1:19:38 and they're going right to the liver, so the liver has to store it, right?

1:19:40 So you get this non-alcoholic, you know, fatty fatty liver.

1:19:44 But and that happened after 5 days.

1:19:46 I mean, without gaining young, healthy Yeah.

1:19:49 But, you know, they were eating a lot of calories, extra calories.

1:19:52 Yeah, that's like an a 1,200 That's like a half

1:19:54 a pizza uh extra above your maintenance calories per night.

1:19:59 what they were doing.

1:20:00 They were eating lots of Well,

1:20:01 they were eating like saturated fat and refined sugar, so it

1:20:03 Doritos and french fries.

1:20:04 Yeah, I mean, obviously if you're going to do the study,

1:20:06 you want to kind of do it to a degree

1:20:07 where you're going to see some change, right?

1:20:09 So so maybe like maybe it's not going to happen in 5

1:20:12 days if you're if you're only eating 500 more calories a day,

1:20:15 but over time you will be gaining visceral fat, right?

1:20:19 So it's not going to be the same degree.

1:20:21 It's something to be concerned about, it's something to think about,

1:20:25 and also because you can gain it and not really even know it,

1:20:28 like, you know, without gaining a pound.

1:20:31 And there are other things that cause it, not just,

1:20:33 you know, eating too many calories or diet composition.

1:20:35 I mean, you mentioned cortisol.

1:20:36 I mean, chronic elevated cortisol makes you store the fat around around,

1:20:40 you know, visceral fat.

1:20:41 Sleep loss.

1:20:42 I mean, there's also studies showing that you take healthy men,

1:20:45 sleep deprive them for a couple of weeks, I think 4 hours,

1:20:47 they're getting 4 hours of sleep at night, they can start gaining visceral fat,

1:20:51 I mean, pretty rapidly with only like a pound gaining a pound of weight.

1:20:55 So again, it's like not necessarily something that you're

1:20:57 going to see on the scale, but it's happening.

1:21:00 Right?

1:21:00 And it's affecting your short-term mood, I mean, how you feel, your energy.

1:21:04 It's affecting, you know, the way you're eating.

1:21:06 It's a vicious cycle cuz you start to eat more calories, right?

1:21:09 And then it just becomes this vicious cycle

1:21:11 of that you start to gain more visceral fat.

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1:22:33 Such an important point that you can either not

1:22:36 be gaining much or not gaining any total body weight,

1:22:39 but gaining visceral fat.

1:22:41 I think that's first time I've heard

1:22:43 that and it's a vital message for people to hear

1:22:45 because this visceral fat sounds like one

1:22:48 of the major health hazards we need to worry about.

1:22:50 You mentioned elevated chronically elevated cortisol,

1:22:52 sleep deprivation will increase visceral fat.

1:22:56 Once again, I know I'm beating a drum here almost to death,

1:22:59 but having high cortisol early in the day and low cortisol

1:23:03 in the evening is the definition of not chronically high cortisol.

1:23:08 The definition of chronically high cortisol is

1:23:12 somewhat elevated or elevated cortisol in the morning,

1:23:14 but especially in the hours before sleep and I I actually have

1:23:17 a theory that is not a stretch that one of the main

1:23:20 reasons why it's so detrimental to our mental and physical health

1:23:23 in the short and long term is because of the ways it's disrupt sleep.

1:23:27 And so and we can't tease those apart.

1:23:29 You can't do a study where you spike cortisol late in the day,

1:23:31 even if you can fall asleep just fine after the end of a really stressful day,

1:23:36 the sleep is different.

1:23:37 And people say, "Well, life has stress." And I totally agree.

1:23:39 I mean, Lord knows I've experienced life has stress,

1:23:42 but getting that last hour of the day doing things to push down on cortisol,

1:23:46 push down on stress,

1:23:47 lower heart rate, not eating in that certainly that last hour before sleep,

1:23:51 ideally three, I feel like that small

1:23:54 change can make a an outsize positive difference.

1:23:57 That's interesting like the the the correlation between

1:24:01 the high cortisol affecting your sleep and maybe

1:24:03 that's also like they're they're related and so

1:24:05 the sleep loss really does make you We know.

1:24:08 We know from, you know,

1:24:10 you probably know who the researchers are that have done

1:24:11 those studies on sleep loss and it affecting appetite, right?

1:24:14 I mean, Oh, everything gets disregulated.

1:24:16 I know I don't want to take us off course,

1:24:18 but I think you might find it interesting that there's

1:24:20 a beautiful study where they look measured metabolism during sleep.

1:24:24 They basically had people breathe into a tube during sleep.

1:24:27 They had a mask on and it turns out that the brain

1:24:29 cycles through all the different forms of metabolism during sleep.

1:24:33 There's a phase of sleep where you're essentially running on sugar.

1:24:35 There's a you're then you're like

1:24:37 a almost looks like somebody's ketogenic at one.

1:24:39 Basically that the middle of the night when we're so well should be at night.

1:24:42 When you're sleeping is a is kind of a test run

1:24:44 of all the systems but they get recalibrated and it's so important.

1:24:49 think you know most of the negative effects of alcohol that people talk about.

1:24:51 Yes, it's a poison.

1:24:52 It's a class one carcinogen as classified

1:24:55 by the World Health Organization on a I think

1:24:58 most of the negative effects of drinking are

1:24:59 because of the negative effects of alcohol on sleep.

1:25:02 I'm not telling people to drink in the morning but you know

1:25:05 and so I I think that if you get your sleep right,

1:25:08 you're not 90% of the way there but you're halfway there.

1:25:12 Yeah.

1:25:11 I really do believe that.

1:25:12 And then getting your sleep right makes you do a bunch of other things.

1:25:16 Right.

1:25:16 You're more you're more more motivated to exercise for one.

1:25:20 [laughter] More motivated to exercise.

1:25:20 Your food choices I mean and on and on.

1:25:23 The the problem with talking about sleep is

1:25:24 so important is people will get sleep anxiety.

1:25:27 So we tap dance around this like we

1:25:28 don't want people stress learn how to fall asleep,

1:25:31 learn how to fall back asleep.

1:25:32 These no one gets it perfect.

1:25:34 Yes, you'll survive like it without one poor night's

1:25:36 sleep or an all-nighter you're not going to die.

1:25:38 Like you know just get good at it on average, right?

1:25:40 That's what I'd say.

1:25:41 Could you tell us what the structure of the intermittent fasting is for you?

1:25:44 Does that mean skipping breakfast, skipping lunch, skipping dinner?

1:25:47 Because I know a number of people are

1:25:50 So we're getting drawn back to intermittent fasting after

1:25:52 a couple years of it getting beat up on is like not the best way to lose fat

1:25:55 or is a I think it's a terrific way

1:25:58 to do the sorts of things that you're describing

1:26:00 and I'm learning today more about the positive things

1:26:03 it can do for insulin sensitivity and so forth.

1:26:07 If you're on a bout of intermittent fasting, are you doing it by the clock?

1:26:12 Are you doing it by feel?

1:26:13 What does it look like?

1:26:14 For me it it it really does depend on the day and I

1:26:17 really do try to stop eating 3 hours before I go to bed.

1:26:21 It doesn't always happen, you know, with family obligations,

1:26:23 social obligations, but it's the habit that's important, right?

1:26:26 So, intermittent fasting, you know,

1:26:29 it's more than just one intervention as I mentioned.

1:26:31 It's a behavioral tool that you can use to limit your calorie

1:26:34 intake with actually without actually having to count all the calories,

1:26:37 which some people like to do, some people don't, right?

1:26:40 So, it's a tool, but also it's really important for a metabolic switch.

1:26:44 As you mentioned, insulin sensitivity.

1:26:46 And the metabolic switch is something that Dr.

1:26:48 Mark Mattson coined and I love it because I feel like, you know,

1:26:53 thinking about intermittent fasting in that way makes it

1:26:56 a little more clear as to the benefits of it.

1:26:59 It depends on the meal you have and how much exercise you do, right?

1:27:02 But on average, let's say 11-12 hours to deplete your liver glycogen levels.

1:27:07 And once that happens,

1:27:08 you do start to burn fat and use fatty acids as fuel and make ketone bodies,

1:27:14 so you go into ketogenesis, right?

1:27:17 And that's a metabolic switch, metabolic flexibility.

1:27:19 You're not You're going from using carbohydrates as fuel

1:27:22 to using fatty acids and making ketone bodies as fuel.

1:27:24 And that's something that, you know,

1:27:26 throughout human evolution was ingrained, right?

1:27:29 Like we didn't always have access to Uber Eats and Instacart

1:27:33 and you just at a swipe you get food, right?

1:27:36 I mean, there were many times when, you know,

1:27:37 people had to not eat because they couldn't forage their foods,

1:27:42 maybe the time of year or they couldn't hunt

1:27:44 their food because they didn't get a win or whatever.

1:27:47 I don't know.

1:27:48 So, this metabolic flexibility is something that's really ingrained

1:27:51 in in our in our our DNA in a sense, right?

1:27:54 I mean, one of the reasons I like to do that is the ketone production.

1:27:59 And why is that, you know,

1:28:00 ketones are really clean They're clean a clean way to burn energy.

1:28:05 So, they generate less oxidative stress, less oxidative products,

1:28:11 but they also are energetically favorable in that it takes

1:28:14 less energy to use them to make energy than glucose does.

1:28:18 So, it takes more energy to use glucose as energy than it does ketones.

1:28:22 But, [snorts] they're also a signaling molecule.

1:28:24 So, it's a way for the body, you know,

1:28:26 to signal to other parts of the body like, "Hey, this is a stressful time.

1:28:31 There's no food.

1:28:32 I'm, you know, burning I'm I'm in in ketosis.

1:28:34 Um let's let's make you stronger,

1:28:37 right?" Cuz that's kind of what evolution wants.

1:28:39 Like, if you're not able to find or eat food,

1:28:42 you have to be stronger to be able to do it, right?

1:28:44 And so, that's that's kind of at the I say

1:28:47 core of of this metabolic switch and why it's important.

1:28:50 And I think that I really like Mark Mattson being the pioneer in this.

1:28:53 And as a neuroscientist really looking at the benefits

1:28:56 in the brain as well, you know,

1:28:57 these ketones like beta-hydroxybutyrate are activating, you know,

1:29:02 growth factors like brain-derived neurotrophic factor in the brain.

1:29:06 As you know, it's very important for, you know,

1:29:08 learning, memory, you know, re- synap- synapse formation and stuff.

1:29:12 This hugely important for syn- um neuroplasticity.

1:29:15 So, it's activating beneficial compounds like that.

1:29:18 And again, um it it it it's not going

1:29:21 to happen if you're never going into this metabolic switch.

1:29:24 And there's other ways to get there, right?

1:29:25 So, you can limit your your food, go into this ketosis, right?

1:29:29 Where you're basically depleting your liver glycogen.

1:29:32 Or, you can exercise a lot, right?

1:29:33 So, your energy expenditure goes up.

1:29:35 So, there's there's different ways to get to this metabolic switch.

1:29:38 It doesn't necessarily have to be intermittent fasting.

1:29:40 God.

1:29:41 And then, I'm telling you this because you I want to tell

1:29:43 you why I'm I'm sort of back back on the intermittent fasting.

1:29:47 And by the way, it's not for everyone.

1:29:48 Like I said, I mean,

1:29:49 I think that you can find other ways to get this metabolic switch.

1:29:53 And um for me, intermittent fasting works.

1:29:55 And so, what I do typically is I will do

1:29:58 most of the time my fast my workouts will be fasted.

1:30:00 Not all the time.

1:30:01 It it does depend on how I feel.

1:30:03 What time do you typically wake up?

1:30:04 So, I wake up like s- between 6:00 and 7:00.

1:30:07 And if I didn't have a family, like, you know,

1:30:10 getting my son ready and I would probably work out right away.

1:30:14 But I don't end up working out until like 8:30.

1:30:17 So I'm, you know, and I still pretty early.

1:30:19 What time do you go to sleep if you don't mind me asking?

1:30:21 I'm I'm asleep like I'm asleep by 10.

1:30:24 I'm usually in bed at 9.

1:30:26 Takes an an hour of just like, you know, hanging out and yeah.

1:30:30 So so um or 9:30 sometimes, but yeah, usually 10:00 is when I'm sleeping.

1:30:36 That's my my bedtime.

1:30:37 And uh so I do stop eating.

1:30:39 I try to stop eating by 7:00 p.m.

1:30:42 But typically my first meal on it depends on the day,

1:30:45 but it'll usually be like around 11, maybe sometimes 12.

1:30:48 If I'm doing a podcast, it'll be later.

1:30:50 And um I do like to be fasted in the morning

1:30:53 because the cognitive benefits is is really what I'm interested

1:30:56 in with that metabolic switch and it does come down to ketones

1:31:00 and I know that um Mark Mattson's talked a lot about this.

1:31:02 I had him on my podcast a couple year a few years ago actually.

1:31:04 I learned so much.

1:31:06 But the ketones like beta hydroxybutyrate are increasing GABA.

1:31:10 They're like balancing the glutamate, the you know,

1:31:12 excitatory neurotransmitter with the inhibitory one, GABA.

1:31:15 And I think that increasing GABA is what helps me

1:31:19 and what I love the most because it does help, I think,

1:31:22 quiet down some of the other I don't know,

1:31:25 chitter-chatter in my brain and help me focus because

1:31:28 it's like somehow the GABA is calming in a way.

1:31:31 I don't I don't know exactly.

1:31:32 You could probably describe it better than I can.

1:31:33 All I know is that I really like it.

1:31:36 And so in the mornings, I like to be, you know, I like to be fasted.

1:31:39 I like to be cognitively aware.

1:31:41 It's when I get most of my productive work done.

1:31:43 And I feel smarter.

1:31:45 So I'm doing it.

1:31:47 And that's why I typically like to shift my breakfast to later.

1:31:51 Now, I do I would say some days I do

1:31:53 only eat two meals where I am on on honestly,

1:31:56 I'm skipping the quote-unquote breakfast.

1:31:59 But uh Uh, some days I do have three meals and, you know,

1:32:03 oftentimes they're like different size meals, right?

1:32:06 And usually my if I do have three meals,

1:32:09 the the the third one will be the in-between the first meal and the second meal

1:32:14 will be like a very like a half of or 3/4 of a turkey burger or something.

1:32:18 So, it's it's mostly protein and it's not heavy.

1:32:22 But, so I would say I'm, you know,

1:32:23 usually 11:00 to 7:00 probably is when I'm eating my meals most most days.

1:32:28 Some days it's, you know, I I fast for a shorter period of time.

1:32:32 Some days I wake up in the morning because I I did too early of of like I,

1:32:36 you know, I'd stopped eating like like 4 or 5

1:32:38 hours before bed and I'm like, I need to eat.

1:32:40 And I guess what?

1:32:41 I eat and then I work out and it's like that's, you know,

1:32:44 you kind of just listen to the to what your body's doing.

1:32:46 Actually, Mark Mattson just published a study very very

1:32:48 recently showing that he did a I think he

1:32:51 was doing a 5:2 intermittent fasting protocol where it's

1:32:54 like 2 days you're getting pretty severe caloric restriction.

1:32:57 Like you're eating one meal, but it's like 500 calories,

1:33:00 you know, for that for the day.

1:33:02 And it's twice 2 days 2 days out of the week.

1:33:04 The other 5 days you're eating normal

1:33:06 and compared that to calorie like eating eating

1:33:08 like a healthy diet and they were

1:33:09 somewhat calorie restricted but not quite as much

1:33:11 as the people that were doing the fasting and they had the fasting group

1:33:14 had massive cognitive benefits like 20% improvement

1:33:17 in a battery of tests that were done.

1:33:19 He attributes that to the ketones and the effect of ketones on GABA.

1:33:23 attributes it to the ketones and like can

1:33:25 you get that to some degree with caloric restriction?

1:33:27 Probably, especially the more severe caloric restriction you do.

1:33:30 You can, if we're talking about weight loss, caloric restriction's key, right?

1:33:34 You have to have that.

1:33:35 If we're talking about the cardiovascular reset, like caloric restriction,

1:33:39 if you're eating meals right before bed, you're not going to get that.

1:33:42 Like that those studies have been done.

1:33:43 I think, you know, Courtney Peterson was some of the one

1:33:45 of the first ones to really show that effect on blood pressure,

1:33:49 you know, like really significant.

1:33:50 In fact, if you if you do early

1:33:52 time restricted eating and stop eating, you know,

1:33:55 I don't know how early in the day it was, maybe 6:00 Maybe it was 8:00 p.m.

1:33:58 but you know, there was like a blood pressure drop that was like 10,

1:34:02 you know, 10 I think was um uh points or something millimeters of mercury.

1:34:09 Significant.

1:34:09 Is it Yeah.

1:34:10 Yep.

1:34:10 Yeah.

1:34:11 Yep.

1:34:11 So, I mean that's very significant.

1:34:12 I saw it's on magnitude of what you'd see with like some of the first line,

1:34:15 you know, drugs that are used to treat hypertension.

1:34:19 I would never say for someone to do that, but I'm just saying it's significant.

1:34:22 And that's not something that you typically see if you're eating you know,

1:34:25 fewer calories but you're eating constantly throughout the day.

1:34:28 So, I do think there are special benefits that can be had,

1:34:31 but again, it's also a tool that people use.

1:34:33 I use it as a tool as well.

1:34:35 I don't like to count calories.

1:34:36 Like I don't, you know, some people do and that's fine.

1:34:39 Then, you know, that's that's the way you can you can do it.

1:34:42 But, I like it for the metabolic switch as well.

1:34:46 Definitely.

1:34:45 Um if I were an endurance athlete running, you know,

1:34:48 10 14 miles a day, I wouldn't have to do [clears throat] this.

1:34:51 That would be my metabolic switch.

1:34:53 And it's not that I'm not metabolically flexible.

1:34:56 I mean, I do I think you can just training itself,

1:35:00 you know, does to some degree help with metabolic flexibility, right?

1:35:03 The ability to switch between burning glucose and carbohydrates and and then

1:35:08 burning burn using fat fat and fatty acids as your energy source.

1:35:11 It's that I really I want that I want that real switch to be on and I want it

1:35:17 to be on for a little bit of of time and then I want to turn it off by eating.

1:35:20 You know, I'm not starving myself and I think you

1:35:23 can go too far with exercise and with your fasting.

1:35:26 The problems with fasting and the people that are like,

1:35:29 oh fasting's terrible for you.

1:35:30 I mean, it comes down to one,

1:35:32 they were all about it's like the weight

1:35:34 loss is not just due to intermittent fasting itself,

1:35:36 it's due to calorie restriction.

1:35:37 Guess what?

1:35:37 They were right.

1:35:38 They were right.

1:35:39 Number two, they're afraid of losing muscle.

1:35:42 And I think we have enough data now that it's like if you're training,

1:35:44 if you're doing resistance training, you're not going to be losing muscle.

1:35:47 Now, maybe you won't gain as much as if you were eating more protein.

1:35:52 But, um you could you could just eat more protein

1:35:55 um within the window that you're eating and be fine, right?

1:35:59 So, I think that's the other thing that people

1:36:01 are worried about is muscle loss, including myself.

1:36:05 And I train so much now, and it just works well for me,

1:36:08 and I feel good, and I it's like this clean feeling.

1:36:10 You feel cognitively sharp.

1:36:12 And it works.

1:36:13 And I think that the metabolic switch is something

1:36:15 to not be scared of as long as you're not,

1:36:17 again, going to the extreme, right?

1:36:20 And if you don't want to train while you're fasted,

1:36:21 don't train while you're fasted.

1:36:23 You don't have to, you know?

1:36:24 I I think there's a little bit of an added

1:36:26 benefit that works for me in terms of burning fat,

1:36:30 which is what I, you know, particularly visceral fat.

1:36:32 And to me that that's that's what works well.

1:36:35 But, um you can obviously,

1:36:37 like if you're training hard and a lot and really fasting,

1:36:41 maybe that's too much.

1:36:42 It's too much of a stress.

1:36:43 So, you have to kind of figure it out for yourself.

1:36:47 Yeah, I think the uh the known increase in adrenaline

1:36:50 from being slightly fasted is awesome for cognitive function.

1:36:55 Um I think it allows people to ingest fewer stimulants in the form of caffeine.

1:36:59 You can, you know, you don't need

1:37:00 as much caffeine when you're doing some fasting.

1:37:03 I What you describe is um similar to what I do,

1:37:05 although I notice these days I'm waking up hungrier and hungrier,

1:37:08 and I attribute that actually to my last bite of food you know,

1:37:12 coming a little bit earlier in the day and further from sleep.

1:37:15 And also that thermogenic effect of eating raises core body temperature,

1:37:19 and and you know, to fall asleep, you want your body temperature dropping.

1:37:22 So, it all starts to What You know what I think is kind

1:37:25 of uh is very exciting to me is that for a few years there,

1:37:29 it seemed like there were just so many things,

1:37:30 so many protocols, so many studies.

1:37:32 But, I when I think about cortisol high in the morning,

1:37:35 low in the evening, bracketing the day, that what works best for sleep,

1:37:39 but what you're describing, certainly today you really,

1:37:42 in addition to many other things,

1:37:43 really clarified the relationship between gut

1:37:45 and inflammation and and brain and other tissues.

1:37:48 Things start to fall into bins that it's, you know,

1:37:51 like all of biology so beautifully organized that it

1:37:54 doesn't mean long list of things for people to do.

1:37:56 I love the idea that while it sounds like you're just saying,

1:37:59 "Oh, if I wake up and I'm hungry, I eat.

1:38:01 And if I'm not and I think I can train faster,

1:38:04 I like to train faster." That might seem like a like an obvious thing to some,

1:38:07 but I think it's so critical because the mechanism

1:38:10 that you're chasing in both cases is the same.

1:38:12 You're trying to get great sleep, great great workouts,

1:38:15 but you're not trying to optimize the workout to the point where,

1:38:18 you know, you disrupt your sleep or you insist

1:38:20 on doing something like eating or fasting, whatever it is.

1:38:23 So, the find out what works for you thing is is

1:38:26 is so crucial because it's about feel that fits into a logic.

1:38:30 And I have to say that's initially what drew me

1:38:33 to your work is there's a logic You're not just saying,

1:38:35 "Okay, this study said this, so I'm going to do

1:38:37 this." It fits into a broader logic that comes from your training.

1:38:40 So, I just That's a just a point of gratitude

1:38:42 and I hope it will frame in people's minds that yes,

1:38:44 do what you feel, do what works for you,

1:38:47 but try and frame it in a certain logic.

1:38:49 And that will cuz that's actually what gives you flexibility over time.

1:38:53 Like, "Oh, you're traveling, you have to eat a little later.

1:38:55 Okay, the next morning maybe train fasted." Or vice versa.

1:38:58 about the habit.

1:38:58 Exactly, it's about the habit.

1:39:00 And there are days when I just like I can't train fasted

1:39:02 or there are days when I wake up and I have to eat.

1:39:04 Exactly, where you you, you know.

1:39:06 And there are days when I nights when I have when I'm eating later because

1:39:09 of social obligations and I don't freak

1:39:11 out about it because it's about the habit.

1:39:13 I like the idea of one metabolic switch per day.

1:39:18 You know, you said you could get it from exercise and I thought, you know,

1:39:21 I can really imagine that in 5 years

1:39:24 a concept of of health that hopefully everyone

1:39:27 understands out there is that find a way

1:39:29 to generate the metabolic switch once per day.

1:39:31 Maybe you fast and exercise.

1:39:33 Maybe you just exercise.

1:39:34 Maybe you just fast cuz you

1:39:34 can't exercise because people's schedules are constrained,

1:39:38 but the notion of the metabolic switch is being Here's where it fits in exactly.

1:39:42 The logic is you want the metabolic switch.

1:39:45 You do.

1:39:45 And it's not just, you know,

1:39:47 there's other components this metabolic switch that we haven't even discussed,

1:39:50 which is like when you're in that fasted state,

1:39:53 when you're in the ketosis, like that's also repair mode for your body, right?

1:39:57 So, there's the fed state, the grow, anabolic,

1:40:00 and of course that we're all obsessed with anabolic

1:40:02 now because it's associated with muscle growth, right?

1:40:05 But there's also the repair and recovery state, right?

1:40:09 And so, you don't always want the growth on, right?

1:40:12 You want to repair damage, and repairing damage can be damage to DNA.

1:40:16 A lot of these genes are activated, you know,

1:40:19 when when you're in a nutrient deprived deprived state, right?

1:40:23 When you're in that metabolic switch.

1:40:25 And autophagy, and that's another one that people

1:40:28 some It's a buzz It's a buzzword now,

1:40:30 but it is something that is activated.

1:40:33 It's First of all, we have basal amount

1:40:35 of autophagy going on at any point, right?

1:40:36 Like that's happening.

1:40:37 Like Yeah, you don't have to fast.

1:40:39 to fast.

1:40:40 Exactly.

1:40:41 deficit, which will also exacerbate it.

1:40:43 Yeah.

1:40:43 do have fasted activated autophagy, and certain tissues are more sensitive,

1:40:48 like the liver and the brain, actually.

1:40:51 And so, you know, we don't have a lot of human

1:40:54 data on that in terms of like fasting Exercise also activates it.

1:40:58 We don't have a a lot of great quality human data,

1:41:01 and that's for a lot of reasons.

1:41:02 One is the tissues that are most

1:41:04 responsive to fasting-induced autophagy are not blood cells.

1:41:08 In fact, like blood cells are pretty

1:41:09 restricted in their response to fasted-induced autophagy,

1:41:13 but that's the easiest cell to act, you know,

1:41:14 to access if you're going to measure autophagy in humans, right?

1:41:18 Muscle biopsies have been done.

1:41:19 That's The muscle's also response responsive to to fasting-induced autophagy.

1:41:24 It's responsive to exercise-induced autophagy.

1:41:26 By the way, the exercise again, it's increasing energy expenditure,

1:41:29 so at the end of the day,

1:41:31 you're you're getting into that sort of ketosis, right?

1:41:34 state.

1:41:35 The metabolic switch.

1:41:36 So, um there are studies showing that there's a signal there,

1:41:40 uh but, you know, for some people it's not enough.

1:41:42 Well, it's not enough, we don't really know,

1:41:44 and you can't go off the animal data,

1:41:45 and, you know, I think to some degree it's going to be hard to go get a liver.

1:41:49 I mean, maybe we'll have some tools soon that we can easily access a, you know,

1:41:53 liver biopsy, and that'd be great for many reasons, right?

1:41:56 Not just looking at autophagy.

1:41:58 But, I think that it to some degree you kind of just have to know that, okay,

1:42:03 autophagy's happening right now in our in our cells.

1:42:06 Like, so we know that it's activated by like fasting, by exercise,

1:42:11 by these types of stress, and so why wouldn't it be increased somewhat?

1:42:15 And And when I say autophagy,

1:42:16 I'm talking about clearing out gunk that's built up in your cell,

1:42:20 you know, throughout the day.

1:42:22 We're talking about pieces of DNA, fragments of DNA,

1:42:24 we're talking about protein aggregates that didn't get They're either properly,

1:42:29 like, not properly folding, or they're not being degraded, right?

1:42:32 All sorts of stuff, right?

1:42:33 And it's important.

1:42:34 This is a cleanup process.

1:42:35 It's important.

1:42:36 And so, again, that's another part of the metabolic switch that I think

1:42:40 is it's important to think about because we are really obsessed with anabolic,

1:42:45 anabolic, is it anabolic?

1:42:46 It's great.

1:42:47 You do want to You definitely want to grow muscle, right?

1:42:49 You do You do want to grow new brain cells and stuff,

1:42:51 too, but But, you also want to repair,

1:42:53 and you want to have recovery, and and that's that's another,

1:42:56 you know, it's like the yin and the yang, right?

1:42:58 You kind of want both.

1:43:00 So, I think that's important to think about as well.

1:43:02 Um and fasting, intermittent fasting, I do I like the daily metabolic switch.

1:43:06 It may not be for everyone, you know?

1:43:07 I mean, like I said,

1:43:08 it's not I do think that you can find other ways to get there,

1:43:11 exercise being the big one.

1:43:13 Some people do caloric restriction.

1:43:15 Some people don't need to.

1:43:16 Caloric restriction is something that helps

1:43:18 if you're trying to lose weight, right?

1:43:20 Um it helps if you're trying to lose visceral fat.

1:43:23 It's one of the main ways you can do it.

1:43:24 Intermittent fasting, caloric restriction, exercise,

1:43:27 aerobic exercise that helps lose visceral fat.

1:43:30 But, I mean, obviously, we don't want always want to be in caloric deficit,

1:43:33 but we always don't want to be constantly eating either.

1:43:35 And that's why it comes down to, I think, the simple rule for people,

1:43:38 like if they're going to do some sort of metabolic switch,

1:43:41 some sort of intermittent fast,

1:43:43 it would be like, "Okay,

1:43:43 let's try to at least stop eating 3 hours before bed." Because then

1:43:46 you're at least going to be extending that fast somewhat by 3 hours, right?

1:43:51 So, I think that's And then plus you're getting

1:43:52 that the cardiovascular benefits that are really they seem to be important.

1:43:56 And then not eating at night,

1:43:58 so there's all these studies that have come out of Israel.

1:44:01 I think it's Is it Jakubowicz, Jakubowicz and Freud?

1:44:04 They're two researchers.

1:44:05 Um I mean, Satchin Panda,

1:44:07 I remember years ago showed me one of the studies that was

1:44:09 like published in Science showing that if you have the same exact meal,

1:44:13 same calorie intake, same composition,

1:44:15 macronutrient composition, in the morning,

1:44:17 the afternoon, and the evening, the insulin response is like is different.

1:44:21 Like you're the most insulin sensitive early in the morning.

1:44:24 As you start to go towards the evening,

1:44:26 and particularly 3 hours before your natural bedtime,

1:44:29 you your mel- your melatonin levels naturally rise, right?

1:44:32 And as you know, you know, melatonin is important for the onset of sleep

1:44:37 and and preparing the body for sleep,

1:44:39 but it's also preparing the other organs for rest and recovery,

1:44:41 including the pancreas, which is making insulin.

1:44:44 And so, you're not making as much insulin when it's closer

1:44:47 to your natural bedtime because of the melatonin levels that are rising.

1:44:51 And so, you don't want to be eating a particularly a carbohydrate-rich meal,

1:44:54 but a meal, you're not going to be as as insulin sensitive.

1:44:57 In the last 3 hours before sleep.

1:44:59 Yeah, when you're starting to get into that melatonin

1:45:01 rising phase of, you know, of your cycle.

1:45:06 Yeah, it's interesting.

1:45:07 I I think when people hear, "Okay, you're most insulin sensitive in the morning,

1:45:11 that would be the time to eat your biggest meal." Then people say, "Wait,

1:45:14 but then I'm trying to fast before and I'm

1:45:15 trying to exercise and like how do I do

1:45:17 this?" I think that's where for them the confusion

1:45:19 comes in and it to me it's very simple.

1:45:21 Uh just because your insulin sensitivity is highest first thing in the morning,

1:45:25 doesn't mean you have to eat right away.

1:45:27 I mean, it just means avoid eating too close to bedtime, right?

1:45:31 Sometime during the day.

1:45:32 And also, if you exercise fasted or after a small snack,

1:45:36 it's kind of interesting what Stacy Sims said,

1:45:37 not everyone should exercise fasted.

1:45:39 She said especially a lot of women don't like to do that.

1:45:41 She didn't say eat a meal.

1:45:42 She said like have a scoop of whey protein with some

1:45:45 I think she said with like some almond milk in it.

1:45:47 And it and you couldn't believe the response on the internet.

1:45:50 It was like vindication, right?

1:45:52 And I get it.

1:45:53 It was like it vindicated people's experience like, "Oh, thank you.

1:45:55 Thank you." And it told me something really important

1:45:59 about the kind of sociology of what we do,

1:46:01 which is when something validates people's experience, they they love it.

1:46:07 But it doesn't mean that the things that work for other people don't work.

1:46:11 And I think that that's the the part that gets lost.

1:46:13 And so, if a study shows that insulin sensitivity is highest in the morning,

1:46:18 but you can only exercise first thing in the morning, what do you do?

1:46:20 You know, so um you do the best you can.

1:46:23 All right.

1:46:23 All right.

1:46:24 I think that's where it comes down to.

1:46:25 In fact, I meant to ask you earlier and it

1:46:27 is a good time to um to talk about this.

1:46:30 Uh you've described that if you are slightly sleep deprived,

1:46:34 so not for 4 hours per night or an all-nighter,

1:46:37 but if you've only slept 5 or let's say you're getting

1:46:39 an hour or two less than your normal ration of sleep,

1:46:41 there's some pretty significant inflammation that's that occurs.

1:46:45 That's not good.

1:46:47 But I've heard you cover that exercising

1:46:49 can actually offset some of that inflammation.

1:46:51 This answers a a an important and common question,

1:46:54 which is if I have to pick between sleep and exercise, what do I do?

1:46:59 Um and it sounds like if it's one night poor sleep, exercise.

1:47:04 But you but you don't want to make it a habit.

1:47:05 That's Do I have that right?

1:47:07 I mean, so this this data, a lot of it actually comes from you can cause even

1:47:12 acute insulin resistance after like a night of of sleep deprivation,

1:47:17 certainly after two to three nights of sleep deprivation.

1:47:20 And you know, again,

1:47:21 a lot of that's coming down to some of the things we've already talked about.

1:47:25 And but exercise can help basically negate a lot of that.

1:47:30 And I learned that first hand through experience

1:47:33 when I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor.

1:47:36 I when I was a new parent, of course you're not getting enough sleep.

1:47:39 And so that's I learned it before I actually dove into the science about it.

1:47:43 I I learned about it through my own data.

1:47:46 Where I was, you know,

1:47:47 I wasn't exercising as much and particularly in the first month you

1:47:50 really like you're kind of in a cave as a new mom.

1:47:52 You don't really you're not really exercising much at all.

1:47:55 Evolution wants the baby to survive.

1:47:57 You're recovering too.

1:47:57 I mean, childbirth is a very it's a very traumatic process on your body.

1:48:02 And so I noticed that my my glucose response was like

1:48:06 it was like pre-diabetic and I was like what is going on?

1:48:09 And um and that's when I started looking into the literature

1:48:13 and happened to be around the same time when I

1:48:16 was then starting up my at the time I was

1:48:18 doing spin classes and then it was very clear to me.

1:48:21 It was like I do these high intensity interval training classes even

1:48:24 just twice a week and it was like almost completely negating what

1:48:28 I had seen previously of my my glucose being my fasting glucose

1:48:31 being really high and also my postprandial glucose being higher than than usual.

1:48:35 And so I looked into the studies and there's now you can

1:48:38 you can find many studies out there and it really I mean

1:48:41 obviously exercise is one of the best thing you can do

1:48:43 to improve insulin sensitivity and to also bring glucose into your cells, right?

1:48:49 And so that's part of what you were talking about with oh you're

1:48:51 more insulin sensitive during morning least during

1:48:54 the evening and I also mentioned that.

1:48:55 But guess what?

1:48:56 There's levers you can pull that like change the equation.

1:48:59 And exercise is a big one, right?

1:49:00 If you're if you're exercising you're becoming more insulin sensitive.

1:49:04 You're increasing more glucose transporters on your muscle.

1:49:06 That's causing glucose to go in easier, right?

1:49:08 There's so there's lots of ways around some of these rules that we hear about.

1:49:13 But with the with the sleep loss it really is

1:49:16 it's it's interesting because people like when they don't get sleep,

1:49:19 the last thing they want to do is work out.

1:49:22 And obviously like you don't want to do like the hardest thing,

1:49:24 especially if you're really like sleep deprived a lot.

1:49:28 But it really does help negate the inflammation

1:49:30 and the insulin insensitivity that can happen

1:49:33 after even just a single night of sleep

1:49:35 and there's studies out there showing that.

1:49:36 And then there's also these longitudinal studies

1:49:39 that have been done looking at you know, people.

1:49:42 So obviously poor sleep is a problem you know, in the United States.

1:49:46 I mean a lot of people are are sleeping fewer than 7 hours a night.

1:49:49 And um but there's studies out there

1:49:50 that have looked at people that sleep either shorter,

1:49:54 so fewer than 7 hours a night or they're sleeping more than 10, right?

1:49:56 So you don't want to be on either

1:49:57 end of the spectrum and usually like sleeping long,

1:50:00 there's like other disease states associated with it, right?

1:50:03 But um so people that are sleeping, you know, not getting enough sleep,

1:50:06 they have a higher all cause mortality than people

1:50:08 that are getting at least 7 to 9 hours of sleep.

1:50:11 And the same for like more than 10.

1:50:13 They have a higher all cause mortality than people getting between 7 and and 9.

1:50:17 But if people exercise,

1:50:19 if they're meeting the physical activity guidelines right now,

1:50:22 which is 75 minutes of vigorous intensity exercise

1:50:25 and 150 minutes a week of moderate intensity exercise.

1:50:28 Right.

1:50:28 Well, cuz the guidelines are helpful,

1:50:30 but they're just guidelines because I mean,

1:50:32 doing the sort of workout that you're doing,

1:50:34 working up to doubles and triples and singles

1:50:37 on compound lifts and then doing uh cardio,

1:50:41 like getting your heart rate elevated and then

1:50:43 doing addition of that and then you're hiking.

1:50:44 I mean, that it's just uh I think the guidelines

1:50:48 are a good jumping off place for people to think about.

1:50:50 Well, we can talk about that because there's a new study that kind of throws

1:50:54 Yeah, you only that on the head.

1:50:55 But but the point is is that if they

1:50:57 were if people were exercising within the guideline range,

1:50:59 that they basically if they weren't getting enough sleep,

1:51:02 if they were getting fewer than 7 hours of sleep per night,

1:51:05 that they they basically had the same mortality

1:51:07 rate as people that were getting enough sleep.

1:51:09 So it's offsetting some of that unhealthy stuff,

1:51:11 the insulin resistance, you know,

1:51:13 the inflammation that we know, you know,

1:51:15 can lead to diseases and early mortality.

1:51:18 So, find the time to exercise, folks.

1:51:21 But, of course, periods of time like after

1:51:24 a new child or new job or particularly stressful time,

1:51:28 I don't know any human being,

1:51:30 I don't care how driven, um okay,

1:51:32 there's probably Goggins and Cam Hanes

1:51:35 being probably exceptions and a few others,

1:51:37 you know, I don't know if you can ride out in a few others,

1:51:40 but people who everybody else seems to have periods

1:51:45 of time where they need to just back off a bit.

1:51:49 Mhm.

1:51:48 I know I certainly do.

1:51:49 And I feel like I'm doing pretty well for myself despite, you know,

1:51:52 and and I think that it it's important that people not hold themselves

1:51:57 to a standard that is going to make

1:51:58 them sick or injured or miserable beyond Yeah,

1:52:02 you also want to continue to enjoy health-promoting activities, right?

1:52:06 Right.

1:52:06 I mean, you got to say like what's your goal?

1:52:08 Like, your goal is to be healthy, to be happy.

1:52:10 If you're taking it to this extreme where you're

1:52:13 trying to just go to the extreme like go hard,

1:52:15 go home, and it's you're sacrificing your happiness, too.

1:52:20 I mean, then that's a problem, right?

1:52:21 Cuz that's part of the equation.

1:52:23 Happiness is part of that healthy equation.

1:52:25 Health is a daily and lifelong thing, but sometimes it means taking a day off.

1:52:29 I think that's what people don't say, um and I think it's in a time

1:52:33 when perhaps a lot of people aren't exercising enough.

1:52:36 So, promoting the no days off thing can be helpful,

1:52:39 but for those that are already you know,

1:52:42 you know, forward center of mass, you know,

1:52:44 coming off the accelerator can be really useful.

1:52:47 I also want to just mention because, you know, we we talked about my, you know,

1:52:51 I I work out a lot and I'm sort of addicted to it,

1:52:54 but like not everyone has the time and motivation

1:52:59 to to go spend an hour block of time working out.

1:53:02 And this is where I think that people can sigh a sigh of relief

1:53:06 because there's now so much emerging data that have been coming out you know,

1:53:11 over the last decade on these short burst of physical activity that add up.

1:53:17 They add up and people aren't really thinking about them and you know,

1:53:21 counting towards adding up to to their physical activity,

1:53:25 you know, requirements for the for the week.

1:53:28 And so there's these there's a lot of studies now there's

1:53:31 on something called um vigorous

1:53:33 intermittent lifestyle physical activity Vilpa studies.

1:53:35 Have you heard of those?

1:53:36 Are these the exercise snacks?

1:53:38 They're unstructured.

1:53:40 They're unstructured and not everyone likes the word exercise snacks.

1:53:42 I mean, I I kind of like it,

1:53:44 but the unstructured exercise they're they're the they're

1:53:46 the they're the moments in your life

1:53:48 where you're taking advantage of everyday situations

1:53:50 to get your heart rate up to move.

1:53:52 And so that could be I'm playing with my new

1:53:55 puppy and I'm sprinting around with my new puppy.

1:53:57 I'm, you know, chasing my grandkid around and playing tag or my child.

1:54:00 I'm sprinting up the stairs to get to my office.

1:54:04 I'm running to catch the bus.

1:54:05 I'm moving, right?

1:54:07 And so um researchers and there have been several studies on this now.

1:54:10 Researchers use accelerometers rather than just

1:54:13 relying on these questionnaires which are,

1:54:16 as you know, you know, extremely unreliable.

1:54:19 I mean, it's very hard for people to remember how

1:54:21 much exercise you I'm sitting here asking me about my exercise.

1:54:23 I mean, there's only so much, you know,

1:54:25 that you can be accurate with when you're trying to recall that.

1:54:27 So these accelerometers are are worn on people's

1:54:29 wrists and they're and they're measuring like fast movement,

1:54:32 the movement, right?

1:54:33 And so thousands and thousands like hundreds of thousands of participants.

1:54:37 There's lots of data now showing that people that are

1:54:40 doing these like short burst at least a minute long,

1:54:44 but up to 3 minutes, right?

1:54:46 Where they're getting their they're moving.

1:54:48 I'm saying they're getting their heart rate up.

1:54:49 They're actually not measuring the heart rate in these days.

1:54:50 They're moving faster with intent, right?

1:54:53 They're they're jogging or they're um you know,

1:54:56 they're not of course there's the cases where they're actually exercising,

1:54:59 but but the short burst of it um they're doing the things

1:55:03 that I just mentioned and it's having outsized effects on on health outcomes.

1:55:08 So, for example, individuals that do on the high end,

1:55:12 so they're doing, you know,

1:55:13 3 minutes of this short burst of an unstructured type

1:55:17 of exercise snack and they do it three times a day.

1:55:20 So, it's a total of 9 minutes a day.

1:55:23 Okay, this type of activity,

1:55:25 and it's considered more vigorous because you're the intent to move, right?

1:55:28 That's more vigorous even though they're not measuring heart rate.

1:55:31 That's associated with a 40% reduction in all-cause mortality,

1:55:34 40% reduction in cancer-related mortality,

1:55:36 a 50% reduction in cardiovascular-related mortality.

1:55:40 Wow.

1:55:39 9 minutes a day.

1:55:40 And this is even in people that don't identify as exercisers,

1:55:43 so they're not the kind of people like you and I that go

1:55:46 and intentionally [clears throat] set out time to go to the gym.

1:55:48 They're people that just they're just

1:55:50 take their they're doing those things, right?

1:55:52 They're playing with their grandkids or their kids or their puppies or whatever.

1:55:55 And so, um, these moments they add up.

1:55:57 And I'm I'm citing one study, but, you know,

1:56:00 there was a dose-dependent effect even doing 3 minutes a day,

1:56:02 you know, there's a study in women showing, you know, 3 and 1/2 minutes a day.

1:56:05 I mean, they were having pretty profound benefits

1:56:07 on all-cause mortality and cancer-related mortality as well.

1:56:10 And multiple studies now have shown this.

1:56:12 I mean, this is like one study after another after another.

1:56:14 I mean, it is is undeniable that these short moments of, you know,

1:56:18 getting physically active active do add up

1:56:21 and structured exercise snacks can be part of that.

1:56:24 Like, maybe you don't have a puppy, maybe you don't have a kid yet,

1:56:27 maybe you work from home and you're not taking the stairs.

1:56:30 You know, maybe your situation's different than what I described,

1:56:33 but you can take these moments to do exercise snacks and that can be a minute

1:56:37 long and it can be like there was there's studies showing that two two studies,

1:56:41 and I'll talk about one,

1:56:43 showing that getting up and doing 10 bodyweight squats every 45 minutes over a 7

1:56:48 and 1/2 hour work day is better at regulating

1:56:52 blood glucose levels than a 30-minute walk, right?

1:56:55 So, you get up and you do 10 bodyweight squats.

1:56:58 Pretty easy.

1:56:58 I mean, it's also very good to break up that sedentary time.

1:57:01 So, being sedentary means like you're not moving.

1:57:05 That also is an independent risk factor,

1:57:07 even if you do exercise for things like cancer being a big one.

1:57:11 Although, I would say if you're doing a lot of exercise,

1:57:13 you're doing pretty good, but I just like to mention that as well.

1:57:16 I would say being sedentary is a disease, actually.

1:57:19 That's That's something I mean, people aren't thinking about it, but

1:57:22 Even in the absence of what Layne Norton calls energy toxicity,

1:57:26 like even if somebody is at maintenance or below maintenance calories,

1:57:30 if they're sedentary, that's that's problematic.

1:57:33 We do have data for one measuring cardio cardiorespiratory fitness,

1:57:37 which is a marker of cardiovascular health.

1:57:40 Being physically fit, right?

1:57:41 Obviously, the gold standard of that would be measuring VO2 max,

1:57:45 your maximal oxygen uptake during maximal exercise.

1:57:48 A lot of studies do not actually directly measure VO2 max.

1:57:51 They'll do, you know, maybe sub a submaximal treadmill test,

1:57:55 or they'll estimate it, right?

1:57:57 There's a calculation out there you can do kind of what your If

1:57:59 you wear like an Apple Watch or some sort of fitness tracker,

1:58:02 what they do is which is, you know, it's looking at the distance that you run

1:58:06 and the amount of time it takes, right?

1:58:07 So, like a 12-minute run would be an example.

1:58:11 People do that.

1:58:12 You You run as fast as you can and maintain that pace for 12 minutes.

1:58:15 You're not going all out, obviously.

1:58:17 You see how far you can go.

1:58:18 Yeah.

1:58:19 Yeah.

1:58:19 And then And there's a calculation out there

1:58:20 that's done to kind of estimate your VO2 max.

1:58:23 And so, some studies are a lot of studies

1:58:25 are actually doing sort of an estimation of cardiorespiratory fitness.

1:58:28 So, cardiorespiratory fitness is really important, I think,

1:58:32 for, you know, marking your health and longevity.

1:58:36 And, [snorts] you know, if you have a low cardiorespiratory fitness,

1:58:39 most of the times you are not physically active, right?

1:58:43 And there's studies showing that if you don't have any,

1:58:46 you know, diagnosable diseases,

1:58:47 so you're not insulin resistant, you don't have cardiovascular disease,

1:58:50 you don't have cancer, all that stuff, right?

1:58:51 You're not um obese, but you have a low cardiorespiratory fitness,

1:58:56 it is as bad or worse in terms of your all-cause mortality, your you know,

1:59:02 predicting mortality, than having cardiovascular disease or smoking

1:59:07 or having hypertension or these things

1:59:08 that we know that are really bad for health, right?

1:59:10 So, being sedentary, as I'm saying,

1:59:13 it's a low cardiorespiratory fitness, I guess it's not exactly correct.

1:59:16 It's a little bit of I'm I'm stretching it a little bit,

1:59:18 but cardiorespiratory fitness is a marker of, I would say, fitness.

1:59:22 And so, [snorts] um that's why I think being sedentary is a is a disease.

1:59:27 And people with a low cardiorespiratory fitness, I mean,

1:59:30 if you go anywhere above that, you know, from low to like low normal,

1:59:34 that's associated with a 2-year increase in life expectancy.

1:59:37 If you go from low to um high normal,

1:59:41 you know, that's like almost a 3-year increase in life expectancy.

1:59:44 And if you go up to high,

1:59:46 then you're talking about a 5-year increase in life

1:59:47 expectancy compared to where you were at below.

1:59:50 But again, I'm I'm not talking about your VO2 max,

1:59:52 I'm talking about cardiorespiratory fitness.

1:59:53 And it's it's really important.

1:59:54 Here's another reason why I think that it's it's really bad.

1:59:56 So, these these studies were done By the way,

1:59:59 cardiorespiratory fitness is improved by aerobic exercise in general.

2:00:04 That's great.

2:00:04 And then, you know, if you if

2:00:05 you add in high-intensity interval training in there,

2:00:08 mix that also really helps because there are some

2:00:10 people that don't respond necessarily to just doing cardiovascular Yeah,

2:00:14 about 40% of people don't respond.

2:00:16 So, mixing in the high-intensity is good.

2:00:18 If you're physically active and doing that, that's great.

2:00:20 If you're doing these short bursts of physical activity,

2:00:22 also good because it's a little bit of a high-intensity,

2:00:26 you know, exercise, right?

2:00:27 A min- a minute running around chasing

2:00:29 your your grandchild or your puppy or your child.

2:00:31 You know, that's that's that's a hit session.

2:00:33 is amazing.

2:00:33 I was traveling with Sprinting up the stairs.

2:00:35 Uh sprinting up the stairs or if you're

2:00:37 carrying a lot of luggage in the airport,

2:00:38 like going up the stairs or down the stairs.

2:00:40 It's wild when you go to the airport, uh I I like to notice this.

2:00:44 Um nobody takes the stairs.

2:00:49 Yeah.

2:00:49 Down or up.

2:00:50 Like the escalators are there and I'm always like, "Oh,

2:00:52 this is a great opportunity to get some extra

2:00:53 steps and some extra work." But I realize that's me.

2:00:56 Um but it's just it's striking.

2:00:58 Um and if you're in DC ever, you know,

2:01:00 they've used the long stairwells that go um up

2:01:03 from the from the public transport and that's a workout, you know?