I Gave Him an Ultimatum To Stop Hiding Our Relationship | Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

0:00 And she basically says,

0:01 "You put a picture of me in your house that stays and not that I

0:04 disappear every time I leave the house or we really will need to end this.

0:10 This is too painful." It is really the clash between the transparency

0:14 that polyamory rests upon and the secrecy that is the structure of his life.

0:20 Join me for this other episode of Where Should We Begin?

0:25 None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Prell.

0:30 Each episode of Where Should We Begin is

0:32 a one-time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality.

0:37 Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed,

0:41 but their voices and their stories are real.

0:51 He integrates into my friend group incredibly like my partners.

0:56 We literally travel the world, but he still is in these two other

1:00 monogous relationships that they don't know I exist.

1:04 If I come to his place,

1:05 he basically has to like steam clean it so there's no trace of me.

1:10 Like it's very very very unhealthy.

1:13 She has been dating with intention where

1:17 she wants partners that are open communicators

1:22 how I've been always is seeing multiple people typically hiding a lot of things.

1:28 Where our problems come in is a big part of my life

1:34 is these other relationships that are closed off to others.

1:40 I always ask him, I'm like, "What if something happens to you?

1:43 What's the move?" Then we all just meet at your hospital bed.

1:48 When they come in, they present as a couple

1:51 that is grappling with a misalignment around

1:56 ethical non- monogamy and her wishing for more

2:00 transparency and his living a life of intense compartmentalization.

2:06 But very quickly it becomes clear that that's not the only thing here happening.

2:11 This is as much a session about polyamory as it is

2:14 a session where one person lets their partner know something needs to change.

2:22 I need a response from you.

2:24 I need us to make a decision.

2:26 And repeatedly the partner does not do so.

2:32 He has fully agreed with me that he needs to make this change.

2:36 He had told me he was going to end things with them

2:38 or have these conversations by the new year which did not happen.

2:43 So I just said, you know, we need space.

2:47 There's so many crossroad moments where

2:50 often one person finds themselves making ultimatums.

2:54 Be it about commitment, be it about having children,

2:58 be it about revealing a secret,

3:00 be it about being presented to the family hoping that it

3:04 would put the right amount of pressure on their partner.

3:08 But in fact, they don't necessarily respond this way.

3:11 And so they have to carry out their ultimatum and the decision is well,

3:16 if you don't follow this request or the expectations, then I must go.

3:21 But they don't want to go.

3:23 Recently she put an ultimatum with the request

3:27 that she wanted to become known to his other partners.

3:30 He did not meet the ultimatum.

3:33 They broke up.

3:35 This is not the first time that they go through this very same loop.

3:40 And when they are apart, they remember how good they have it together.

3:44 And so this is when they come wondering what kind of a future do we have?

3:50 Can we find a way to be partners still?

3:54 Are we able to find a way to be

3:56 on the same page and have that perfect type of relationship?

4:02 Where do we start?

4:10 Let's meet and give me a sense as to how we landed here today.

4:16 Okay.

4:16 So I think the important thing to know is that we

4:19 both identify as solo polyamorous and that's actually how we met

4:25 was on a dating app where we both disclosed that and that was an immediate

4:29 alignment and I also practice relationship anarchy.

4:33 So I am very open-minded to all sorts of different

4:36 relationships and I want different relationships in my life

4:40 that work for me and the situation I'm

4:41 in now and that's important for me and my partners.

4:44 So,

4:45 and the solo is you first, your primary partner is yourself because it

4:50 can mean different things for different people, right?

4:53 Um, for me, the solo is that I

4:56 would never get on a relationship escalator with anybody.

4:59 I have no desire for marriage or cohabitation or financial entanglement.

5:05 So, I guess in that case, I am my own primary partner.

5:09 Okay.

5:10 And for you?

5:11 Yeah, I mean it's very similar.

5:13 I think um I I actually didn't have an identity maybe

5:18 until somebody brought that to me of like you operate this way.

5:22 I've always had multiple partners but kept it fairly

5:26 secret until I was in a relationship that was

5:30 monogousish but then on the other side I was

5:34 cheating and I didn't want to ever do that again.

5:36 So once I ended that relationship, I was like, "Okay,

5:41 now I'm going to speak more openly." And that's sort of what I've done eight,

5:46 nine years, I think.

5:47 But then not really doing the follow-ups needed

5:52 where it's like somebody asks where I'm at.

5:54 I'd rather not say anything or potentially live where it's created

6:00 these monogous relationships even though they know I see other people.

6:06 I can't really speak openly about my partners with them which I want to do.

6:12 I want to

6:12 How many them?

6:14 Uh it's two others

6:16 and they know of each other.

6:19 I mean they know that I see other people yes

6:21 but not full names or they don't want to meet other people.

6:26 So it becomes a challenge even though they know I'm with other people.

6:30 they just want to be with me but keep it out of their mind which

6:34 I agree is not healthy for them either but is choices they make but I

6:39 also protect that too I think a little too much rather than speaking more openly

6:45 and that's where I'm trying to build

6:48 for myself or my life more open more honestly

6:51 how highly would you rate yourself on the evasiveness scale

6:56 oh very high I'm good at it Yes.

6:59 You just gave us a wonderful demo, too.

7:04 Yeah.

7:02 It slips.

7:03 It's like It's like a fish.

7:06 You know, they ask, but they don't really ask, but I don't really really tell.

7:09 But I told them in the beginning, but they don't know eight years later.

7:14 Yeah.

7:14 Yeah.

7:14 There's not much poly in that, by the way.

7:17 No, I know.

7:17 And I know that too.

7:18 Like I I think

7:20 in respect of polyamory, this is probably not a good example for sure.

7:24 And I think that's how we got here was, you know,

7:27 we were seeing each other very casually in the very beginning and then

7:31 we had some profound experiences together

7:34 where we realized when we traveled together,

7:37 when we were out in our community together,

7:40 we had the most amazing time and the most amazing connection.

7:45 And so then I wanted to shift towards more partnership because

7:48 we were so very aligned and the connection was so deep.

7:52 And that's when I began to realize that his other partners were unaware of me

8:01 outside of a concept potentially and that he has full access to my whole life.

8:08 And I never got a single glimpse into any of his life,

8:12 which over the years I began to realize is because he

8:15 spends his whole time managing

8:17 these parallel realities that can never intersect.

8:22 So essentially there is no room for me and no ability to share anything with me.

8:27 You know like you become so close to somebody and you can't reach out to them

8:31 and ask for help because they have to pretend in that moment you don't exist.

8:36 And that was that's been our breaking point.

8:41 They meet on this app field and they both present themselves as solo poly.

8:47 And so there was a sense that their reality

8:49 is based on the same set of assumptions.

8:52 But in fact they realize that they have

8:55 been part of two very different relationship cultures.

8:58 His is the culture of secrecy.

9:00 Hers is the culture of transparency.

9:03 Hers is the culture that she has voluntarily anchored herself

9:07 into and made a conscious choice

9:10 about with lots of intentionality and awareness.

9:14 His, as he says in his first sentence, my identity was kind of a sign to me.

9:20 I don't really have a sense of identity,

9:22 but people looked at how I dealt with things and then they told me,

9:25 "Oh, this is what you may be."

9:27 without much investigation of what that represented.

9:30 And so it is at the same time confusing

9:33 but also it comes with quite a lot of pain.

9:43 This need for compartmentalization.

9:47 this need for your left arm not to know there's a right one

9:52 and to keep things apart and hidden from each other where from because

10:00 the discussion is less here about is

10:02 this correct polyamory or it's definitely correct compartmentalization

10:08 for sure

10:08 it's correct hiding it's correct obfiscating it's correct evasiveness it's

10:14 correct half answers and Of course you will talk in circles.

10:19 It's meant to do that.

10:23 Yes.

10:22 And how many years are you at this?

10:25 Uh two.

10:28 Okay.

10:27 Two years of us having these discussions and then

10:31 we had a break last year in the agreement was

10:33 that he would be in a situation where we

10:37 would be open with everything by the end of 2025.

10:41 And when I realized that wasn't going to happen is when we went on the break.

10:44 Yeah.

10:44 Okay.

10:45 And honestly for me, part of that comes from childhood for sure to try

10:51 to make a really long story as short as I can.

10:55 I grew up in a church that uh is quite different.

11:00 So I hid that from everybody just because it gets judged.

11:04 And tell me what church.

11:08 Church Scientology.

11:10 Growing up my mother and my sister big parts of that.

11:13 My sister is gone when I was young teenager like she left

11:19 to go full-time in there and my mother had something happened within

11:23 it that she wasn't around either mentally um full psychotic episode

11:30 and my father ended up not able to stay with me and my mother.

11:36 But I have to now not only try to live my life as a teenager,

11:40 but also be with my mom, protect my mom in a way,

11:47 but also act as a double agent to the church, to my father, all these things.

11:55 One made me grow up really fast, become hyperindependent, for sure.

12:00 And did you have to hide your mom's situation?

12:05 For sure.

12:07 And was there anyone to protect you?

12:14 No.

12:19 I think not having both of my my mom and my sister in my life at that time.

12:24 I don't know if that has because I

12:26 became promiscuous and was never really wanting full relationship.

12:31 Super avoidant of that.

12:33 maybe avoiding a connection.

12:36 I do feel there's areas around that for sure.

12:42 He just said something so important,

12:44 but he muttered through it and didn't even finish the sentence.

12:47 And yet, I heard in this one line

12:51 so many keys for what could become the session.

12:56 He talks about how there was nobody to protect him

12:59 that he lost his mother and he lost his sister.

13:02 And then instantly he also says but I became very promiscuous at that time

13:06 and I never really wanted a full relationship

13:09 because I became super avoidant but with sex.

13:12 So he finds a way to connect with the women but with limited liability.

13:18 He gets his needs met.

13:19 He gets to feel close.

13:20 He gets to experience tenderness,

13:22 but at the same time he gets to experience a dissociation

13:25 of the need that he has for the intimacy and for the connection.

13:29 He can be on both sides of this polarity,

13:33 connected and disconnected at the same time.

13:36 And it becomes a major part of his life, his promiscuity.

13:40 It looks like it is about sex, but it is actually using the language,

13:46 the behavior of sex in order to satisfy deep

13:50 emotional needs while at the same time masking them.

13:57 But I also know I can compartmentalize a crazy amount.

14:03 Yeah.

14:03 Do you surprise yourself sometimes?

14:06 Somewhat.

14:07 you know, like it's almost like I hate to say it, but like serial killer,

14:12 like shut off, you know,

14:14 where they can like do something crazy and then be very normal.

14:20 And it's not quite at that same level.

14:22 I'm not wanting any harm for anybody.

14:24 I want everybody to be happy.

14:26 And that's another aspect of my life that I think I need to also

14:31 realize I can't always be the nice guy or make other people happy.

14:36 And I am a people pleaser, I guess, like I'm not the writer of my own life.

14:41 And I kind of follow this logic of pleasing and wanting others to be happy.

14:50 Do you think you should pursue her or you should set her free

14:56 and our relationship here?

14:59 Yeah.

15:00 Uh, I think there's still questions of our alignment, right?

15:06 For me, I want to live a different life

15:09 that is aligned with the way she is and operates,

15:13 but then there's other things that I'm like, well,

15:15 I think we look at life a little differently.

15:18 And like she said, I've been introduced to all her friends and it seems like,

15:24 wow, I haven't introduced her my friends really, but it's very different.

15:28 like I don't really see my friends often and I

15:31 don't have the type of community that she creates.

15:34 I don't share a lot of my life.

15:36 Do you ever voluntarily just tell something?

15:43 Not or do you wait for questions?

15:45 I usually

15:46 she already answered.

15:47 I just saw her head shake.

15:48 Yeah.

15:48 Yeah.

15:48 It's usually questions, right?

15:50 And that's something where

15:52 I'm not sharing much.

15:53 I keep everything super close.

15:55 I don't know.

15:56 I I What's it like to listen to him right now?

16:04 Um I mean I I know all of this.

16:08 Yeah, I can tell he has a lot to say

16:09 and also is having trouble answering the question that you ask.

16:16 Well, I asked if you are in your pleaser mode,

16:22 would you define her happiness as I pursue you

16:26 or would you define her happiness as setting her free?

16:30 And he answered pretty much the way you would expect he would answer.

16:37 I have a little of this and a little of that.

16:40 Yeah.

16:40 Right down the middle.

16:41 And basically I don't know.

16:44 And basically maybe those are not decisions I make in my life.

16:49 They're made for me.

16:53 Yes.

16:53 Like even taking the breaks, I am always the one to make the decision.

16:57 And if I would just be happy to carry on like that, he would

17:00 never choose to end things even if it seemed really bad or uncomfortable for me.

17:09 So this puts you in a place where you have to take autonomy all the way.

17:15 Yeah.

17:16 Like I have clear boundaries and my boundary

17:19 around being a transparent part of the life

17:21 of the people that I love is a boundary for me at this point.

17:26 And like on our last break I said something very simple.

17:30 Once you feel like your life is in a state where you could have a photograph

17:34 of me in your condo that you don't

17:36 have to take down every time somebody comes over,

17:39 then that's when we can get back together and talk about how we move forward.

17:46 Cuz to me, that would mean that I'm

17:49 a transparent part of his life that can be seen.

17:52 Mhm.

17:53 Of course,

17:58 I continuously sense that she doesn't give

18:03 herself the permission to experience the sadness

18:06 and the vulnerability that is inherent in what she really would like with him.

18:11 When I hear her talk about wanting just her picture on the wall,

18:17 I actually become sad because it's like, is that all you want?

18:21 It's very small this little picture.

18:24 And at the same time, I feel the deprivation.

18:27 I feel the sense that regardless of the anarchy,

18:32 there is a desire to be integrated, to be seen, to be known by others,

18:36 not to be hidden, not to be somebody's secret.

18:39 And that all of this is very painful and also angry making.

18:45 So it comes out in the discourse of polyamory

18:49 rather than in the plight of her heart.

18:59 Given that you practice relational anarchy, is it hard to end?

19:04 You feel like you should be able to bend to anything.

19:08 You should be pliable, flexible, understanding, empathic.

19:12 his therapist, his lover.

19:16 I broke my brain trying to figure out how

19:20 to accept the fact that my partner had these monogous

19:24 relationships that were complete eraser of me and that that should

19:29 be okay from a relationship anarchy perspective, right?

19:32 Like consenting adults choosing to interact in a way

19:35 that makes sense for them and that's right for them.

19:39 I tried but then I How much of a pretzel did you become?

19:43 A very very tight pretzel.

19:46 Okay.

19:46 Um and I realized that it's not a healthy relationship format that I can be in.

19:51 And I don't believe it's healthy for anybody.

19:53 I think he recognizes the work he has to do

19:56 on being more open and honest and living proper poly.

20:01 And when your other relationships require you to hide everything,

20:04 you can't even learn or exercise that or even try to be different.

20:11 But then I felt horrible being like,

20:13 you have to end these other relationships to be

20:15 with me cuz that also felt outside of relationship anarchy, right?

20:19 Or like an ultimatum.

20:20 But then I I just realized at this point it's

20:23 holding my boundary like both can't exist in a healthy way.

20:26 You wanted him to end them or you asked him to let them know

20:32 that he's not just sleeping with other women

20:35 that he actually is two years with you.

20:38 How many years with the other?

20:39 Four.

20:39 Four years with us together, but I would say two years that we've been Okay.

20:43 So, you have four years and the other two the primary other

20:48 is one is eight years and one is three.

20:51 Okay.

20:52 So, you're loyal.

20:55 You don't commit, but you stick around.

20:58 You get attached to in your way.

21:00 Yeah.

21:01 In your way.

21:02 I mean, the the thing is like there's nothing bad in these relationships.

21:07 Like really there's not.

21:09 The only challenge really is this is living that super honest life,

21:16 which I also want for myself.

21:18 I'm tired of hiding.

21:19 I'm good at it, but I also can't wait to be free of that.

21:24 and actually live with intention.

21:27 So when you made the agreement

21:29 with her that you would come out and be transparent,

21:39 what happened when you thought about not ending but just

21:44 letting them know I live in a triad primarily?

21:50 Yeah, it's a very tough thing for me to be super vulnerable in that way.

21:57 I think I always think of this very negative

22:00 reaction that they will be affected by what I say.

22:05 And if I tell my long girlfriend of 8 years that I actually

22:12 have other women that I'm in a relationship with, she will feel that what?

22:19 I lied to her.

22:22 Yeah.

22:21 Everything looked fine, but it wasn't.

22:26 Yeah.

22:25 She told me I could be sexual with other people,

22:28 but she told me keep your feelings for me.

22:31 And all that time I didn't.

22:34 Yeah.

22:34 I mean, is it that so I would be hurting her?

22:37 Yeah.

22:38 But even now, like I've finally gotten some good therapy to look

22:43 at my own boundaries and I am having those breakup conversations now because

22:47 I know that it's unfair to them and I know that it's not

22:51 a workable thing for me and I'm going through those stages right now.

22:55 And you're going through these conversations with the person or in your head?

22:59 No, with the person for sure.

23:01 Okay.

23:02 And what's it been like to taste a very different way of being in the world?

23:11 Feels good to be more honest for sure,

23:14 but it also still has that visceral reaction that I'm destroying somebody,

23:22 you know, which is not not what I want to do.

23:26 End for her.

23:30 It's okay.

23:33 That's the vulnerability.

23:36 Sometimes it hurts.

23:42 It hurts to lie and it hurts to say the truth.

23:48 Yeah.

23:48 Both.

23:58 uh in my attempts to make everything okay or to follow

24:03 maybe others leads or not be super straight and honest,

24:07 I'm actually I know doing a disservice to them as well.

24:11 I'm not sitting here thinking I'm innocent in any way.

24:19 I have a lot of empathy for how painful it is

24:23 for her that he makes these promises that he can't keep.

24:28 But I also understand why he can't keep them.

24:32 He was left alone with his psychotic mother.

24:35 He was the gobetween the mother and the church, the mother and the father.

24:42 Every adult around him was dangerous.

24:46 And to be under such surveillance made him understand that the mechanism

24:52 for survival was for nobody to know anything that would endanger him.

24:58 I don't know the details of what he means

25:01 when he describes himself as the double agent for example.

25:05 But I do understand that this is not just a basic

25:09 skills training about how to become more honest and more forthcoming.

25:14 This is a complete transformation

25:18 of his entire psyche being and survival system.

25:28 You learn to survive and you still practice those same coping skills.

25:37 you know, in an environment today that is completely different and actually

25:45 requires something else from you and offers you something else.

25:50 You have a super understanding person here who

25:58 is not insensitive to anything you just told,

26:03 but who knows the difference between you

26:06 living with secrets and her being a secret.

26:11 And when you are a secret, it eats you from within.

26:17 when you are a secret and you don't want

26:18 it and there's no reason for you to because you

26:21 made a whole set of life choices in order

26:24 for exactly that to avoid having to be in that situation.

26:29 Yeah.

26:29 Yeah.

26:29 And I've been clear that the hardest thing for me is feeling like a secret.

26:35 Yeah.

26:34 It makes you feel like almost a mistress even though you're not.

26:37 And I'm not doing anything wrong.

26:40 And I didn't ever say, "Please break up with these people," but I did say,

26:44 "Please be open and honest." And I said, "Here's a lot of resources.

26:48 Like, here's all the intro to poly resources.

26:51 Like, maybe share these." But I also understand if

26:54 people aren't coming from that mentality that, you know,

26:56 you kind of have to want to do that.

26:58 So, but that would have been my approach.

27:02 And it just got to the point where I don't see a path

27:04 forward other than us almost starting over from a place of no secrecy.

27:11 And I know it's probably hard to imagine what

27:16 our connection is like based on what we're saying here.

27:20 But honestly, when we're out in the world

27:22 and when we're traveling and when we're with our community,

27:26 I've almost never experienced anything like it.

27:28 Like we're so similar and it's so incredible.

27:32 and we have the most fun and there's so much love.

27:38 So, I think it makes it more like the pain of that not

27:44 existing in between those moments is just something I can't make work anymore.

27:54 For me, your whole life is spent managing these secret relationships

27:58 and not necessarily even making time for one-on-one time for us.

28:03 What makes you amenable to live in this situation which is rationally

28:18 completely outside of the values and the principles that you have chosen

28:26 again um yeah you're going to tell me the specialness

28:29 of our connection and then that's your circleing around.

28:33 I think it's it's beautiful.

28:35 I'm not for a moment minimizing, but it doesn't give you an out either.

28:42 It's like but it's so special, but it's so unique.

28:45 But what we have is so incredible.

28:48 And then I can't take it anymore.

28:52 Yeah.

28:51 And then I take a break and then I loosen my muscles

28:56 and then I get back into the ring and then it's so beautiful.

29:01 And then how could I ever give up on something like this?

29:05 And then is how could I ever continue to tolerate something like this?

29:09 So now you start to be in a betrayal of yourself, not just his betrayal of you.

29:16 So yeah, I learned a lot about where he came from and what

29:26 he's been through and I have incredibly deep empathy for that.

29:35 And it helps me contextualize what he does and it helps me understand it.

29:40 Mhm.

29:43 And sometimes knowledge comes to a detriment to yourself, I guess,

29:48 because I know how much good there is in him.

29:55 And I understand why it's so difficult.

30:00 And so I make a lot of space for that.

30:04 And I think that's just what love is.

30:08 And then you reach the point where your love for him becomes degrading of you.

30:22 Yeah.

30:24 Change the word.

30:25 The word didn't sit well with you.

30:26 Change.

30:30 No.

30:30 It just never sees me.

30:32 No matter how much empathy and space I give,

30:37 I just realize maybe I'll never be seen in that way.

30:43 I mean, I do see you.

30:45 I just am not necessarily super forthcoming.

30:49 I'm not very vocal on emotions.

30:52 When we're apart, it's not that I don't see you anymore and it shuts off for me.

30:57 I will think of you often.

31:00 I don't operate the way a lot of people do where they

31:04 like think of somebody or see

31:06 something and then immediately messaging that person.

31:09 I know that's a normal thing, but it's not that I don't love you or see you.

31:14 It's I don't know how to change.

31:17 I've become more aware of what I'm doing

31:20 because you're bringing it back on you.

31:25 And then every time you rope

31:26 her into this empathic attunement of your situation,

31:33 if you can stay with her for a moment.

31:41 Yeah.

31:41 Yeah.

31:41 I mean, I'm mainly trying to say I understand where So that's a short sentence.

31:49 You can say it in a in one sentence, too.

31:52 Yeah.

31:53 You know, I know it's coming back to me,

31:55 but I'm also trying to give us a chance to move forward in the right way.

32:01 And I've never had more tough conversations.

32:04 I know you're not there, so you don't see it.

32:07 But it's tough because on the other side,

32:10 there's other people that don't want things to end or change.

32:14 I know.

32:14 But you have a choice of your life, right?

32:17 If you need to change a situation with a partner, you have full autonomy

32:23 to make that choice.

32:24 It's for yourself.

32:25 And as I said, like 8 years, a long time of somebody being in my life,

32:28 and I've had two fullon breakup conversations that are so hard,

32:33 that are so out of my norm.

32:35 I know there's no easy way, and I have to do it the hard way.

32:38 I Do you wish that she would understand that more?

32:42 For sure.

32:43 how hard it is to have these conversations.

32:47 How much you are hurting people you care about deeply.

32:53 You get a lot of understanding for your past

32:56 but you also live in the present and you can

33:00 ask for some understanding about the challenges of your present

33:04 even if it's late even if it's after years

33:07 whatever because you've so presented it as they're monogous

33:11 and I am just the one floating through that to acknowledge

33:15 that these breakups which have been the most steady

33:19 relationships in your life are tearing you apart Yeah,

33:24 but I also take responsibility of my action to it, you know.

33:30 Correct.

33:29 And I feel terrible like

33:34 correct.

33:34 Correct.

33:35 And you can judge yourself a little bit

33:38 or and you can also acknowledge your feelings about it.

33:41 Not one wipes out the other.

33:45 I realize this is an area I have not been able to be kind or empathetic around.

33:53 how hard this would be.

33:55 And I think in an unfair way,

33:56 I just say that I would never be in this situation.

34:00 So, I can't understand it.

34:04 But I hear that if I'm so understanding about the past,

34:08 I also need to be understanding about the present.

34:12 And I haven't been probably more because

34:15 the present does seem to directly affect me, right?

34:20 So, it's a really hard balance to strike, I think, and I am sorry for that.

34:27 I wish I could take back time to be super honest.

34:31 I mean, even in the breakup of 8 years,

34:35 I mean, from when we first were were talking,

34:38 I hadn't met other people really that were living that way and living truth.

34:45 Like, I had no examples of that.

34:47 So, a lot has changed in understanding how to do it.

34:52 At least open honesty, not hurting anybody.

34:57 And I know I'm hurting people.

34:59 I know that that's happening.

35:00 And I'm at a breaking point, too,

35:03 that I don't want to do that anymore for my life.

35:07 But the other side is also it's a big loss as well.

35:12 And it's a loss for me.

35:14 Like these are friends that won't be friends.

35:18 So I lose real people.

35:20 That's not just so simple as yeah, you're not happy.

35:24 Like well I am actually kind of happy and there's nothing wrong.

35:27 They treat me well.

35:28 I treat them well.

35:29 It's just that it is not aligned with how

35:32 I should live and I shouldn't be secretive.

35:36 And what you're saying now, have you said to her before?

35:41 Yeah.

35:41 the part about your loss.

35:47 Yeah.

35:47 Yeah.

35:47 We've we have talked about that and I I think it's really just hard for me

35:51 to understand what those relationships could be like

35:54 and what those relationships add to his life.

35:58 To be honest, all I see is him move through the world in a very open,

36:03 authentic, beautiful way with me and my friends.

36:08 And all I can picture is a completely different person when

36:12 he's with these other people that everything else is hidden from.

36:16 And you know, they don't go on adventures

36:19 and they don't travel and they don't like it.

36:21 It's it's just hard for me to understand and conceptualize.

36:24 Do you ask?

36:26 Uh yeah, I've asked what he gets from these relationships and

36:29 that's that's not a question.

36:31 Oh, because you already have decided that it's inferior to what he has with you.

36:36 It's not a real question.

36:38 That's fair.

36:40 I don't ask in a curious way.

36:45 Yeah.

36:44 So, here's the collusion.

36:46 You don't really ask because a part of you

36:49 wants to think that what you have is so special.

36:52 How could he say no to that?

36:55 And he doesn't really tell you because until now

36:58 he has pretended that none of this was that important.

37:02 Yes.

37:04 So, here's a moment of change.

37:07 You know, it's not just it's hard for them,

37:10 it's hard for you too to say goodbye or to explain why this has

37:16 to change or to explain that these beautiful

37:19 relationships have existed also shrouded in secrecy.

37:23 And while you offered travel, maybe they offer cocoon,

37:30 you offer adventure, they offer something else.

37:34 I don't know.

37:35 But I have a sense that there is a lot more that you could tell about it.

37:41 But you've had an investment in making them look like they

37:44 were nothing so that she wouldn't have to worry about it.

37:48 So there's a collusion of misrepresentation of what

37:51 means what and what matters and doesn't.

37:58 Yeah.

37:58 And there's comfortability habits.

38:03 It it does bring cocoon I guess or comfort to life.

38:07 It's like a stable thing for me which I didn't have obviously growing up.

38:12 I know that's a part of a need and want that I

38:16 I have like taking care of and you know even if

38:19 it's making food things like that like there are comforts of life.

38:26 I assume that in your therapy you are connecting those dots.

38:35 Yeah.

38:35 But in all honesty, I'm like working through trying

38:40 to change my situations more so than I am there.

38:45 Like that's all I I went in with and that's all I talk about almost.

38:50 But you have put a lot of emphasis on honesty and transparency and secrecy.

39:01 And what I'm sensing throughout our conversation today is

39:04 that there is a whole other emphasis on loss, on the burden of caretaking,

39:12 on feeling incredible responsibility,

39:17 on wondering who is there for you, on aloneeness,

39:22 and on creating relationships that become

39:25 safe harbors where somebody cooks for you.

39:31 so that it becomes more layered.

39:33 Why they feel like a root canal to have to end and why

39:40 on some level they have nothing to do with your relationship right now.

39:45 It does and it doesn't.

39:48 I think what's hard for me is that I want to be a safe harbor

39:54 for you and I think I offer you that comfort and doing things for you

40:01 and not just the community but like one-on-one

40:08 like I do truly believe that we want

40:11 the same thing and I recognize the barrier here and how hard this is for you.

40:22 But that like puts me back in like I don't know what to do

40:24 with that cuz it's a it's a pretty tough boundary for me again.

40:30 So even if I can understand how hard it is

40:33 for you to change your dynamics with these other individuals,

40:39 like can I change my boundary?

40:41 And like I've tried and now I'm back in a pretzel in my head

40:45 of like why can't I just let this all work for me?

40:49 Like I feel like I'm right back there.

40:52 I saw the loop.

40:54 I see the circle.

40:57 I see the the the making of the pretzel if you want and yes there is also

41:04 a place at which you say love him love

41:08 some of what we have special unique love story

41:15 but maybe reached its limit in terms of life

41:17 story to me that is a boundary that people

41:23 that we can deeply love and then the question is can we make a life with them?

41:30 Whatever the style of life you choose, more pressure you can't put,

41:39 that's one thing you know for a fact because he's not doing this for you.

41:45 But he has been watching you and he wants something else for himself.

41:49 And that demands the disentangling

41:52 from very deep meaningful relationships that are

41:55 way more meaningful than he has actually allowed himself to even know.

42:01 So it's in the moment of saying goodbye

42:03 that he realizes what they have meant for him.

42:06 Not just the hurting of the other person but also the loss for himself.

42:12 You can say I will be there with you

42:13 and I will accompany you through this process or I will

42:18 let you go through this process by yourself and I

42:23 will continue with my life and the door is open.

42:33 I do want to be there for him and I do want to be there for you.

42:37 But if I'm also the one that's being affected, like can I do both?

42:45 You know, where do we begin again?

42:47 Do we begin again?

42:50 I do feel like we're back in our circle.

42:52 We're stuck.

42:54 You know, I know all these things.

42:56 I know where it comes from.

42:59 I want the relationship.

43:03 But while he's going through this and figuring out

43:08 if he can actually live in a polyamorous lifestyle,

43:15 where do I put myself in his life?

43:19 Can I be there?

43:20 Can we plan things together?

43:22 Can we do things together?

43:23 Or does this require a full separation?

43:28 And then when do you come back together?

43:37 It's very much what happens when we talk.

43:40 We kind of circle.

43:42 Um it's a difficult situation because we both love each other and want

43:48 to spend time together and be the partners we can be when we're together.

43:55 But there's other things that are not aligned right now.

44:00 So it's the draw of us being us.

44:05 I don't think that it's going to be a joint decision.

44:11 Yeah.

44:10 I think that this is a situation where you make

44:14 a decision for yourself and you may be in agreement about it,

44:19 but it's not we have come to the conclusion together that It

44:27 is in your best interest to have this transparency be immediate.

44:35 And it is not his.

44:38 You operate from a place of a chosen set of values.

44:45 Yeah.

44:44 And a certain design of for your life and a certain conception of relationships.

44:52 If I listen to you, I know you mentioned those words to those women early

44:57 on, but I don't think that your lifestyle has much to do with poly nothing.

45:03 You're using poly because it's an acceptable word for multiple partners,

45:09 multiple love stories,

45:10 but in fact, your whole thing is way more internal than lifestyle.

45:19 It may change Yeah.

45:22 But that is not from what everything you describe what I see you having done.

45:27 Yeah.

45:27 Oh, I recognize for sure.

45:29 I said that.

45:30 So that's where the misalignment.

45:32 You're using a vocabulary that is not a joint vocabulary.

45:36 Yeah.

45:36 Well, I said I have not I haven't practiced poly.

45:39 I said it, but I haven't been active.

45:41 But you've practiced something else

45:43 and that something else is way more intricate.

45:47 There's a whole psychological infrastructure about

45:50 what you have done to just think

45:52 it wasn't poly because it wasn't transparent because of all it's true it's

45:57 all there too but what you have put in place and what you're

46:01 trying to dismantle is an infrastructure

46:05 that has very little to do with polyamory.

46:10 It doesn't necessarily even have to do with secrecy.

46:12 That's the mechanism.

46:14 the compartmentalizing, the evasiveness and the way the entire thing is set up.

46:18 You know, you if you ask, I answer,

46:21 but since you didn't ask, I didn't really need to tell.

46:23 And then it means is a is a very powerful dynamic.

46:27 And at the same time, the relationships are deeply meaningful.

46:31 But you you're looking at an an infrastructure of values

46:35 and lifestyle and accountability and responsibility

46:39 and transparency and all these things.

46:41 And that is on its way.

46:43 But it has not been there.

46:49 There will be loss for both of you.

46:52 There will be attempts to come back because who wants to leave something good?

46:58 And it won't be perfect and it won't feel certain and it will ache

47:04 and you will wonder why the hell did it have to be this way?

47:08 And should you have been more patient and more flexible and more anarchic?

47:16 And then you have to accept that you

47:18 had limits which goes against your grain because

47:22 you think you should be able to be

47:24 beyond all limits and accommodating in every arrangement.

47:31 And this is kind of the place where you meet

47:35 is that his relationships are more meaningful to him than

47:38 he has allowed himself ever to feel and that your limits

47:44 are more real than you have allowed yourself to feel.

47:49 It's a place where both of you say whatever

47:52 flows isn't necessarily always the right thing for me.

47:59 But you will find a way out of the loop when

48:02 you accept that you too have nos that you have limits

48:07 that you have things that you don't want to live with.

48:12 You know monogamous people exclusive people sometimes

48:16 are challenged to admit that they have thoughts,

48:19 fantasies, explorations beyond the limits that they live in.

48:23 But poly people sometimes have the challenge

48:26 of admitting That fullon openness, exploration,

48:32 everything goes, everything needs to be understood,

48:36 every feeling needs to be managed.

48:40 Is sometimes also not what suits every person?

48:44 Does any of this reach you?

48:47 It does.

48:48 Um, I mean, you just described what kind of we go through when we break up.

48:58 It just hasn't stuck.

49:04 When you make the decision, you won't feel sure.

49:10 You will question yourself.

49:12 It's important that you not think these decisions are made with certainty.

49:18 I know that.

49:20 I mean, that's what I've already been in.

49:23 Right.

49:24 Okay.

49:25 And he will try to help you stay.

49:28 No, no, you won't say it.

49:31 You won't say stay, but you will say what you said today, which melts her heart.

49:38 So grief lives in that space.

49:42 The more you grieve, the more you know you loved.

49:45 I've already grieved this a lot.

49:48 I know.

49:50 But you also put him an ultimatum.

49:54 He didn't meet the ultimatum.

49:56 Then you've had to follow through on your decision.

50:00 Then you thought, "Ah, is there another stone unturned?" And sometimes I

50:06 have nothing to say that you don't know already.

50:09 I think today is one of those.

50:12 Is that disappointing to you?

50:17 A little bit.

50:21 Yeah.

50:22 I obviously wish there was something I hadn't thought of.

50:27 I wish too.

50:31 Where do I leave you besides frustrated or disappointed?

50:38 I think it is just what it is.

50:40 It is frustrating and it is disappointing and those are

50:45 two good words to describe our relationship arc.

50:50 Where do I leave you?

50:52 talking to me.

50:55 Mhm.

50:59 Yeah.

50:59 I don't know.

51:00 I mean, I have to make my own decisions, too.

51:05 And it's quite different.

51:08 I'm the one making the decisions on those other sides.

51:12 And in this position, I'm not making the decision here.

51:17 Um, I can respect that, recognize that and it could be a complete

51:22 restart for me too to go forward in a much better way.

51:28 But is there an avenue that we can be

51:32 in each other's lives that looks differently where our care

51:36 and love for each other just doesn't go

51:38 by the wayside and we still care for each other.

51:41 We still love each other.

51:43 What can something else look like?

51:46 You know what something else looks like is that you are

51:50 now friends and therefore when she calls you in an emergency,

51:56 you do not have to worry about answering the phone

51:59 and then you will pick up and then you will show up.

52:03 You are more likely to be able to show your depth of affection and love

52:07 and care for her potentially in the framework

52:12 of friends than in the framework of partners.

52:17 See, but that's the crazy thing is we've had that conversation

52:21 and the level of compartmentalization doesn't allow that even as a friend.

52:27 Really?

52:28 Yes.

52:27 Oh, okay.

52:28 Then I take it back.

52:29 The compartmentalization doesn't allow for a deep

52:33 friendship anymore than it allows for a partnership.

52:39 Then you have your answer.

52:45 And that's the problem.

52:46 Then you have your answer.

52:58 In the beginning of the session, he said,

53:02 "I never write my own story." At the end of the session,

53:07 it becomes clear that she will have

53:09 to make the decision for where the story goes.

53:14 This will not be a joint decision.

53:15 this will be hers cuz he can go on like this.

53:19 He has begun a process of dismantling and rebuilding,

53:24 but they're not at all in the same place.

53:27 And paradoxically, while he carries the secrecy, we know a lot more about him.

53:34 While she carries the transparency, we actually don't know as much.

53:38 We know the predicament that she is

53:40 in at this moment and the aching that she feels,

53:43 but we don't necessarily know what predisposes

53:47 her to find herself in the most paradoxical situation.

53:52 Meaning she's experiencing the one thing she built an entire system to prevent.

53:57 And my frustration at the end of this session

53:59 is that there was only one session.

54:13 Where should we begin with Esther Pel is produced by Magnificent Noise.

54:17 We're part of the Vox Media podcast network

54:19 in partnership with New York Magazine and the cut.

54:22 Our production staff includes Eric Nam,

54:24 Destri Sibli, Sabrina Farhey, Kristen Muller, and Julian.

54:29 Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

54:33 And the executive producers of Where Should

54:35 We Begin are Estster Pell and Jesse Baker.

54:38 We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.