How Normal People Become Extremists... | Jeff Schoep | DSH #1950

0:00 I could help people leave extremist [music] neo-Nazi type movements,

0:03 but I figured all the others are so different.

0:05 And what I learned quickly by meeting people

0:07 [music] from other extremist groups like former al-Qaeda members,

0:11 former ISIS members, [music] former Antifa,

0:13 all different types of extreme groups, the way they hold people in place,

0:17 the [music] psychology of it is almost identical.

0:20 Original American Nazi party, George Lincoln Rockwell,

0:22 he was assassinated and a number of others were [music] as well.

0:25 So the group I was a part of was a continuation of that movement.

0:34 Okay, guys.

0:35 Got Jeff coming in on the show today virtually tuning in from Michigan.

0:38 How's it going, Jeff?

0:40 Great.

0:40 Thanks for having me, Sean.

0:42 Absolutely.

0:42 I know you got the new book, um, American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity.

0:47 That's right.

0:49 What was the uh inspiration for wanting to get your story out there?

0:53 Well, I I feel like, you know, I mean,

0:55 I I have a pretty led a pretty crazy life, unfortunately.

0:59 And um I feel like that it's a story that can uplift people.

1:03 So, since the book's been out, you know,

1:04 I've had people that have written in and said,

1:07 you know, they've went through all kinds of struggles in their life,

1:09 whether that's been uh drugs or alcohol,

1:12 or whether that's been leaving a cult or leaving

1:14 an extremist group or or anything of that nature.

1:16 Um you know, if you've been through some struggles,

1:18 this is this is a book for you.

1:20 Would you label the group you were part of as as a cult?

1:25 Yeah, you know, when I was involved in it,

1:26 I wouldn't have called it that, but um looking at it from the outside

1:30 looking in and looking back on that, it was definitely a cult.

1:33 And I can tell you when I was involved in it,

1:35 um different women that I was dating from outside of the movement,

1:38 one after another, they were telling me like um

1:42 if they would come to an event or something, they'd be like, "This is a cult.

1:45 You're like a cult leader." And I'm thinking,

1:47 "What is wrong with these choices I'm making in women?

1:49 I'm making terrible choices cuz they keep saying these dumb things, you know.

1:54 And the truth and the reality of it is it's easier to blame

1:57 someone else than look at the person in the mirror and say,

1:59 you know what, they were right.

2:01 There was nothing wrong with any of them.

2:03 It was it was uh me that was the problem.

2:05 And and uh yeah, I was uh I would definitely call it a cult.

2:08 Now, I mean, if you if you look at the dynamics

2:11 of cult dynamics and how to um how cults hold someone in place,

2:16 it is very very similar to extremist groups.

2:19 And um I I found that very interesting even after I had left the movement.

2:24 I felt like um I could help people leave extremist neo-Nazi type movements,

2:31 but I figured all the others are so different.

2:34 And what I learned quickly by meeting people

2:37 from other extremist groups like former al-Qaeda members,

2:40 former ISIS members, former Antifa, um all different uh types of extreme groups,

2:46 the way they hold people in place, the psychology of it is almost identical

2:51 uh across the boards between all the groups.

2:54 So, um I I feel like there's a lot of parallels and there's

2:58 I don't feel like it.

2:58 I know there's a lot of parallels um and uh you know

3:02 these type of uh tactics can be utilized to to help get people out.

3:07 Yeah, I'm very fascinated with cults.

3:08 I've seen so many documentaries on them and half the time I feel

3:11 like people don't even realize they're in one or even leading one, you know,

3:16 100%.

3:16 You uh most people will not tell you if they're involved in it.

3:19 They won't say they're in a cult.

3:21 They think they're part of this cause, this noble ideal.

3:24 they're doing something that everybody else on the outside

3:27 world hasn't figured out or isn't isn't

3:30 queued into and they're right and everybody else

3:32 is wrong and and I can attest to that.

3:35 That's how I felt all you know the many years that I was involved.

3:39 So did you feel kind of trapped at a certain point?

3:43 Say again.

3:44 Did you feel kind of trapped at a certain point?

3:45 Like did you want to leave and you felt like you were stuck for a while?

3:49 100%.

3:50 because I was leading because I was leader

3:52 of this organization for 25 years like I felt

3:55 like um the old saying like this is your bed now you have to lie in it.

3:58 Um so towards the end when I'm wanting to break free

4:01 from it I I didn't feel like there was a way out.

4:04 Like I didn't think I didn't even think that was possible.

4:07 Like I felt like um the first things that I was trying to do

4:10 in in the last years that I was involved in it was change the group.

4:14 You know I'm saying oh this isn't a neo-Nazi group.

4:16 It's a white civil rights organization.

4:19 And you know that's putting lipstick on a pig that's trying

4:22 to dress up something that's ugly and and call it pretty.

4:24 It's still a pig.

4:25 It doesn't matter if it has lipstick on.

4:26 It's still a pig.

4:28 Um and in my mind that was the way

4:30 I was trying to uh so-called air quotes fix things.

4:34 I was trying to fix what I had uh uh

4:37 the wrong path that I had taken for so long.

4:39 Cuz it to it took a while to realize that.

4:42 Um and then once I realized it, I was like, well, I got to fix this.

4:45 when I realized I couldn't fix it, then it was time to disengage and and leave

4:48 and leave that uh lifestyle and and uh work against it.

4:52 Did you feel like at first the intentions were kind of good

4:55 or did you feel like it just progressively got crazier and crazier?

5:00 Like when I joined, you mean when I first got involved?

5:05 Yeah.

5:05 Yeah.

5:05 I felt like I was joining this noble cause and that it was this, you know,

5:08 I was going to help my people.

5:10 I was going to save my country.

5:12 And this is a common misconception that a lot

5:14 of people have about these groups because

5:16 when we look at it from the outside looking in, we think we think to ourselves,

5:20 my gosh, this neo-Nazi or this cult member, what what you know,

5:24 put whatever label on it, but they must know what they're doing is wrong,

5:27 that it's evil, that it's that it's harmful for humanity in their minds,

5:32 unless you're a sociopath or a psychopath,

5:34 you have some other maladies uh psychological maladies going on in your head.

5:40 um most of the people that are involved in this stuff,

5:43 they believe that they're doing something good and noble.

5:45 And I was definitely of that mindset.

5:47 So I was an ideologue to that cause and and uh uh I fully believed in it is

5:54 until until the last few years that I was

5:56 involved and I started really questioning it before breaking free.

6:00 And now with the rise of social media and free speech,

6:03 specifically Twitter, are you seeing a resurgence in the neo-Nazi ideologies,

6:10 you know, people try to gauge that a lot?

6:12 And it's it's tough to say, but I think you are seeing a lot of that.

6:16 You are seeing a lot of rise of of this ideology,

6:20 but um I see it going both ways on on both sides.

6:24 There's something called reciprocal radicalization.

6:26 That's an that's the academic term for it.

6:28 like I understood the process but I didn't know of this term until uh

6:32 the last six years or so when I've been doing this work and it it

6:35 basically means that the two extremes you

6:37 know the different kind of extremes fuel each

6:40 other so um people will get involved and they'll say well um uh the more

6:46 extreme it gets on the right you know the more extreme it gets on the left

6:49 and vice versa you know so these two sides are pulling more and more

6:53 people from the center where most of us are somewhere in the middle left

6:56 and right and they're pulling us out

6:58 to these extremes because they're saying things like,

7:00 you know, well, um, if this happens, you know,

7:03 fascism is going to take over, you know, or if this happens,

7:06 communism is going to take over, you know,

7:08 so people, oh my gosh, I got to get involved.

7:10 I got to do something.

7:12 And, uh, you know, those are the some of the pathways

7:14 into extremism for a lot of people is that reciprocal radicalization.

7:18 I see that so much.

7:19 Uh, especially with religion,

7:21 like they're trying to bring the Islam stuff and the, uh,

7:23 communism link there, the socialism link.

7:25 Um, yeah, that's a hot topic right now for sure.

7:30 Right.

7:30 Yeah.

7:30 I I wonder cuz that's the type of stuff

7:33 I don't know how active you are on Twitter,

7:34 but that's the kind of topics that go viral, you know.

7:38 Oh, for sure.

7:39 For sure.

7:39 Well, and anything that that signals outrage or or panic or anything

7:44 like that is always is is drawing the algorithms and is

7:47 drawing the eyes just like uh more so than kindness

7:51 or compassion or things that we should be drawn to, you know,

7:54 things that are uplifting.

7:56 Um it's those negative things is like uh looking

7:58 at a train wreck or a car wreck or something.

8:00 You know, everybody's got to stop and stare for a minute.

8:03 You know, that's that's uh I I feel like some of that's intentional.

8:07 Yeah.

8:07 And now I feel like it's so easy to join communities.

8:10 Like back when you joined 30 years ago, it was all in person, right?

8:14 There wasn't like an online forum.

8:17 Yeah, it was.

8:18 And I mean that was you you can you talk about extremism.

8:20 You said the good and the bad.

8:22 Um back in those days like I had to search out the movement.

8:24 It was kind of the early days of of computers and and uh like what we have now.

8:30 Uh it certainly wasn't anywhere near that level.

8:33 But um in the early days uh with computers and stuff was sort of a new thing.

8:39 Nowadays you've got you could be 10 years old and click

8:42 a couple buttons online and find

8:44 these groups and that's that's really disturbing.

8:46 So, some of these uh radical groups are going into target children

8:52 in games like um I'm not going to pick on anybody specific,

8:55 but we could say Roblox for for one is one

8:59 specifically been targeting kids in these things and and uh

9:02 the parents think, oh, it's like Legos or or whatever else.

9:05 Nobody's

9:06 it's a kids thing.

9:07 What why would adults be in there uh promoting this stuff?

9:11 And and they are in in some cases.

9:12 Uh um and it's really scary because the parents definitely have

9:16 to be aware of what your kids are looking at online.

9:19 Yeah, that's scary.

9:20 I mean, I grew up playing video games my whole life

9:22 and I never even questioned like being put in danger, you know?

9:26 But now I feel like it's a different era.

9:28 Like you really got to monitor your kids

9:30 and what they're cuz because of the voice chat, right?

9:33 100%.

9:34 Yeah.

9:34 That's where they're doing a lot of that recruiting.

9:37 Yeah.

9:37 I saw um I think Ryan Montgomery and Sean Ryan show talk about this.

9:40 I mean, there's a lot of child trafficking going on from video games.

9:44 Yep.

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11:01 Uh, have have any former members reached

11:04 out to you from the neo-Nazi organization?

11:06 Have they reached out to you to try to leave or talk to you?

11:10 Hundreds.

11:11 I mean, it it was I I figured when I left that there would be some

11:15 that would reach out and that was part

11:17 of my intention when I left was to speak out,

11:20 you know, to I made an announcement that I

11:22 was not immediately when I first first left.

11:24 I retired but I knew I was going to speak out but I did

11:27 that to put some space between myself

11:29 and the movement and also to process everything.

11:33 You know that was a really difficult time period but um in 2019 later

11:38 that year when I felt like you know now is the time I'm going

11:41 to make that announcement and I put out a website and I said I

11:44 was going to speak out against racism and hate and uh be a peaceuilder.

11:48 Now, at this point, I'm getting inundated with um

11:53 people that are reaching out to leave the movement.

11:56 Um I'm hearing from people that left the movement

11:58 before I did that just disappeared and say,

12:00 "Hey, you you finally figured it out, you know,

12:03 you know, some of those." And then there was other people that would

12:06 uh reached out that wanted to leave that wanted to change their life.

12:09 And a lot of them um were just curious, you know,

12:13 so they would reach out and they would be curious about it.

12:15 So they're like, "So you left, you know, um, are you a communist now?

12:19 Are you Antifa now?" And that was like not one,

12:23 not two, but like one after the other.

12:25 I was thinking to myself at the time,

12:28 what am I saying that is making someone think

12:30 that I'm a radical on the other extreme now?

12:33 Because I wasn't saying anything extreme.

12:35 And I had to bring my mind back to that place and say, "Listen,

12:39 remember when we move when anybody left when you were involved,

12:43 you automatically assumed the same thing." Because these groups,

12:47 they don't think in like rational uh they don't

12:50 think in like uh black and they, excuse me,

12:53 they think in black and white, no pun intended,

12:56 but there's gray areas in between, you know.

12:59 So they think if you left, you must be on this other side.

13:02 You're either working for the government, you're a fed,

13:05 an informant or something like that, or you're Antifa,

13:07 you're a communist, an anarchist, something like that.

13:10 And it's it's not, you know,

13:13 that can be the case with some people, but it's not usually the case.

13:18 It's that there's those gray areas in life.

13:20 You can be on the right, you can be on the left, you can be wherever you want.

13:23 Drop the racism, drop the hate, and um, you know, get away from the extremism.

13:28 But in that mindset,

13:29 they they're always thinking that it's it's something extreme.

13:32 So instead of being impatient or getting upset by that, I would just say, "Well,

13:37 why do you think that?" You know,

13:38 and and engage in this conversation with them or explain to him,

13:42 "No, I'm not." And like,

13:43 so and you quickly find out that a lot of the people were like,

13:48 "Wow, I would like to leave, too, but I thought I would have to do that.

13:53 And if that's the case, I'm staying right where I'm at." Like, "No, dude.

13:56 there's all this space in the middle.

13:59 You can be anywhere you want.

14:01 And um it's just having those conversations

14:03 and and once you've been in that environment,

14:06 I think or in that cultlike environment,

14:08 it's hard to break free of that sort of thinking.

14:11 So having someone kind of patiently walk

14:13 them through that and explain that to them

14:15 and and show them that there's uh a better life out there for them,

14:19 I think that that makes a big difference.

14:21 So that was one of the thing things I felt like it was I didn't

14:25 have to do it but it was I felt a a pull or a responsibility

14:30 to have done to do that to show other people that there's a way

14:34 out because I spent a lot of years you know doing the wrong thing.

14:38 I thought the best way to repair some

14:40 of the damage that I had done by the ideology that I'd spread was to help others

14:45 and and uh actually do something really good for humanity.

14:49 Yeah.

14:49 Wow.

14:50 That's interesting.

14:50 So you actually got a decent amount of support when you left?

14:55 Yeah.

14:55 I mean people that Yes.

14:56 that were coming out as far as like support from me personally.

14:59 No.

15:00 No.

15:01 Like a lot of it alone.

15:02 But um um I quickly was able to pull together a team

15:06 of people and and um and other former extremists and other people that had

15:10 been through that life and and uh individuals like Daryl Davis who had

15:15 helped pull a lot of people out of the clan and stuff like that.

15:17 Daryl and I are brothers and uh we work closely together to this day.

15:22 Yeah, I just saw his uh interview, man.

15:24 That that dude changed a lot of lives.

15:26 Daryl Davis,

15:27 he's he's a legend.

15:30 Legend.

15:30 Crazy.

15:31 Um yeah, it's crazy to see how it's all evolved.

15:34 Like Antifa, Trump labeled them as a terrorist organization now, right?

15:40 Yeah.

15:40 Yeah.

15:40 Something like that.

15:42 So, it's it's pretty high stakes now.

15:44 If you're looking to join a group like that, it's now like a huge felony,

15:47 I'd imagine, or something.

15:50 Yeah.

15:50 I mean, getting involved in that extreme in any extreme stuff,

15:53 whether it's far right, far left, or or anything in between,

15:56 it's just it's not a it's not a good thing for a person's future.

16:01 And I know like ideology drove a lot of people in.

16:04 It did for me as well.

16:05 You know, like we we think we're doing something good.

16:07 We think we're doing something noble.

16:08 And this is our way to uh be a part of something like that.

16:12 what a person has to use um you know critical thinking skills when they're doing

16:16 this and I say this now as somebody

16:17 that effed up and and fair into that rabbit hole.

16:21 But um re truly if you look at something

16:24 and if that cause is going to potentially get you

16:27 locked up or get you involved in illegal activities

16:30 or things like that, it's not good for your life.

16:33 You know, that's going to that's going to screw you

16:35 up and and uh harm you way down the road.

16:38 and and especially in this day and age with uh um online and everything,

16:43 somebody can look up your background, you know,

16:45 if you got arrested for, you know,

16:47 starting a fire or a hate crime or whatever it might

16:50 be because you were involved in one of these extreme organizations.

16:53 That kind of stuff can follow you around for a long time.

16:56 So, it doesn't mean your life is over.

16:58 You know, we don't want people to think

16:59 like they have to stay stuck in those movements.

17:02 But you if you haven't gotten involved,

17:05 you're you're for the better because um it's a lot

17:07 of work to break free from it and turn your life around.

17:11 For sure.

17:12 When you were leading the group,

17:13 was was getting locked up one of your bigger fears?

17:15 Were you really scared of getting uh in thrown in prison or something?

17:19 Well, um it was something to be concerned about.

17:22 The group that I was a part of was an above ground organization.

17:25 So if people were getting involved in like really serious illegal activities,

17:29 they would get thrown out of the group,

17:30 you know, and that wasn't coming from a place of like this moral high ground.

17:34 It was coming from the place of protecting the organization.

17:38 The organization came first.

17:39 The individuals were, you know, were secondary.

17:42 So if anybody was doing something that could

17:44 potentially get the organization shut down or or harmed,

17:48 um they were a threat to the group is the way we looked at it.

17:50 But yeah, there was always there was always that concern.

17:53 You always had to be wary of if the person next to you was a paid informant,

17:59 agent provocator, somebody that was sent in to spy,

18:02 you know, if they're being paid to be there um or cut a deal

18:05 because they got into some kind of trouble or or things like that.

18:08 That was um in my book I discuss a few of those a few of those incidences.

18:13 Um certainly not all of them because it would be an encyclopedia.

18:16 That's how the time holy crap.

18:19 any any of these groups, they always had uh informants.

18:24 Um you know, and people just didn't know.

18:26 But a lot uh we were very vigilant in trying to uncover

18:31 that because you learn I learned lessons the hard way in leadership,

18:35 you know, like um um being infiltrated and then some people got hurt,

18:39 you know, in in a big violent uh attack.

18:42 So, um, something like that happens,

18:44 I started running counter intelligence and, you know,

18:48 early on, starting back in the late '9s, started running counter intelligence,

18:52 um, infiltrating far-left groups, things things of that nature.

18:55 So, we always knew where they were,

18:58 what they were up to, uh, supplant false information,

19:01 false locations for events, and and, uh, and, uh,

19:05 keep intel on what our enemies were doing.

19:08 Wow.

19:08 You're out here playing chess, man.

19:11 We had a lot of strategy and a lot of tactics.

19:13 Yes, for sure.

19:14 Wow.

19:14 I didn't know there were that many informants.

19:16 That's almost like unbelievable.

19:19 Staggering.

19:19 It's staggering how many there was.

19:21 It It was just And when you think you had it fig in the early years,

19:25 we I thought I had it figured out because

19:27 a lot of the informants were easy to spot.

19:29 They'd come in and they'd be like, "Hey,

19:31 let's go I don't even know what we can say on the air.

19:34 Let's go do this terrible illegal activity that will

19:37 cause all this destruction." and you go, "Hm,

19:41 that person is somebody that was sent in or they're an idiot and they're

19:45 going to go to prison." And we want either one of those around us.

19:48 So, there was a lot of that.

19:50 But later on, um it got a lot a lot more uh

19:55 uh these groups got more skillful at at bringing people

19:59 in and not saying those things or just silently um you know,

20:02 collecting information,

20:03 writing down license plate numbers or filming or recording things.

20:07 who you know who knows.

20:09 I I can't speak to all their tactics, but uh it's it was wild.

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21:15 Was there any that lasted years

21:17 as an informant undercover and you couldn't spot them?

21:20 Yes.

21:21 And there's pro I'm sure there's some that probably were never uncovered.

21:24 There's a lot of them that were never uncovered,

21:26 but um I was always in the in the movement.

21:29 One of the things is paranoia is really high and a lot of it's

21:32 legit paranoia because they are being infiltrated

21:35 and there is all this kind of stuff.

21:36 But that paranoia because of some of those incidences gets

21:40 so high and so ramped up that literally everybody that's

21:44 involved in it at one point or another gets accused

21:46 of being an informant or a rat or something like that.

21:50 It's and it's crazy like I I saw so much of that going on in the early years.

21:54 I thought wow this is a problem.

21:57 Like yeah there is a lot of informants but um every time like

22:02 uh in some of the groups somebody would steal somebody's girlfriend that guy

22:06 was an informant you know come on now you know or somebody

22:10 quit one clan to join another clan or or one skin head group

22:14 to join another that guy's an informant cuz he left our group

22:17 you know or they would make up something so there was a lot

22:20 of that so for me I didn't call anybody an informant I would

22:23 might say I was suspicious of somebody

22:26 But I was demanding like concrete evidence.

22:29 We would get either like record phone calls or get video proof or dig up stuff,

22:35 you know, finding people that actually gotten locked up because of somebody or

22:40 uh trace records and we a lot of uh a lot of things like that to to find them.

22:46 Were a lot of them just uh like were any of them members that turned

22:50 in foreman or were most of them kind of just people trying to join?

22:55 Both.

22:55 Um because you have some that sometimes um you would have

22:59 somebody that you know you felt like was probably a legitimate member

23:02 and then they got wrapped up in something and they were offered

23:06 a deal uh you know at some point and then they took it.

23:10 Um that would happen sometimes and other times it was

23:13 just people that had come in from from the get-go um that were sent in.

23:18 And you know, you're talking about government organizations,

23:21 non-government organizations,

23:23 and your um you know, monitoring groups or and anti-fascist groups as well.

23:29 Wow.

23:29 So, it wasn't just the government that was informing,

23:32 it was a bunch of different groups.

23:34 Lots of different groups.

23:35 Which ones did you uh fear the most, I guess?

23:40 Well, in in the neo-Nazi movement, you know, everything is blamed on the Jews.

23:44 So, the Jew are behind everything.

23:45 you know, it's it's just like it's it's crazy,

23:48 but that's how they uh that's how they see it, you know.

23:51 So, but uh the government was usually,

23:54 you know, the the greatest threat, I think,

23:57 in in that sense because they would have the most power to be able to

24:01 have you locked up or something like that.

24:03 But, uh so it's always something to be aware of.

24:05 But uh um for some groups it's more

24:09 it's more serious than others because if you're

24:11 engaged in criminal activity and you know you're

24:14 you're going down as far as that goes.

24:17 But um I I kept things as much as legal and above board as possible.

24:23 What a crazy life, man.

24:24 You must sleep much better at night now.

24:27 I tell you, man.

24:28 Um leaving being involved in this movement, the best way I can explain it,

24:32 it was like living in a war zone.

24:34 It was like being at war for my entire life

24:37 and um even when you when I first left like um it's

24:45 almost like it's an adrenaline drain in some ways or you

24:48 know you're going through you know people talking about trauma and all

24:52 this and I thought oh trauma is a bunch of BS

24:54 that's not real and here I am I'm not I'm not able

24:57 to sleep at night I'm like shaking and it's like oh

25:00 that that might be trauma you know like maybe it is real,

25:04 you know, [clears throat] but um yeah, it's definitely real.

25:07 Um and and uh yeah, it's not it's not a life I'd recommend for anybody.

25:12 Um I had to learn to uh live civilian life after leaving because my whole

25:18 life since I was a teenager was involved in this stuff until I left in 2019.

25:23 So um I need to learn how to uh how to operate in the real world.

25:29 Yeah.

25:30 You hear that from people that are in prison like

25:32 they they don't know how to operate in the real world.

25:33 It's almost like you were in a whole another world, right?

25:37 Yeah.

25:37 Yeah.

25:37 And it it I mean there is some comparisons to that.

25:40 I've heard that a lot too from people in prison.

25:42 They get like institutionalized and they don't know how to act when they get

25:45 out and they'll just commit petty crimes and end up going right back in there.

25:49 Um so I understand that mentality, but um yeah,

25:52 this is this was almost just like being at war all the time.

25:56 like you um different things happen.

25:59 I I covered some of some of these things in the book,

26:02 but you couldn't cover everything because I was so many years.

26:05 There's certain things you can't mention and there's certain

26:08 things I needed to cut short, but like um

26:11 I had been uh had raids on my house

26:14 um back in Minnesota and here in Detroit as well.

26:19 Um, it was no knock warrants out out there.

26:21 So, the doors were kicked in at 4 in the morning when

26:24 my kids were sleeping and uh at school the next day and all that.

26:27 So, that was definitely traumatizing and uh for them especially.

26:32 And um yeah, it's not it's not a life I would recommend for anybody.

26:36 So, if anybody's out there thinking like, hey,

26:38 I might want to get involved in this stuff,

26:41 the the likelihood of making it is as many years as I did is is pretty unlikely.

26:46 the chances the chances of ending up dead or in prison are a lot better.

26:51 Wow, that's pretty crazy.

26:52 So, you Yeah, you did it for 25 years, right?

26:56 20 uh 25 and uh leading the group in 27 total.

27:01 Jeez.

27:01 And you didn't see many people make it that long.

27:04 No, I seen a lot of people lost their lives.

27:07 A lot of people went to prison.

27:08 Um, you know, some people there's some people that are

27:12 that are in and that have been in uh many years,

27:14 but us typically leader doesn't make it that long.

27:16 Um, they're they're just they don't they don't they're not able to

27:21 cuz they get hit first, right, with charges.

27:25 Yeah.

27:25 They're either either charges or they or they're

27:29 overthrown or or different things like that, you know,

27:32 or assassinated in some cases.

27:33 you know, the founder of the original American Nazi party, um,

27:37 George Lincoln Rockwell,

27:38 he was assassinated and a number of others were as well.

27:41 So, uh, the group I was a part of was a continuation of that movement.

27:47 Dang.

27:47 So, you had to even fear assassination in your position.

27:51 Yeah, I survived assassination attempts.

27:53 Yeah.

27:53 Yeah.

27:53 I got a stop across the back of my head from one of them.

27:57 Holy crap.

27:59 That's crazy.

28:01 Did you know that like uh was it

28:03 like a group trying to overtake you or something?

28:06 That that particular incident was an Antifa group.

28:09 Back then they were ARRA anti-racist action, but that was back in the late 90s.

28:13 It was Antifa um uh in that particular case.

28:17 But in other cases, you know, I've been shot at.

28:19 I've had people try to stab me.

28:21 You know, you name it.

28:23 [snorts] Lots of uh lots of negative stuff.

28:26 That's why I say people don't typically make it this long.

28:29 It's not a It's not a good lifestyle.

28:32 Jeez.

28:32 Does part of you wonder like how you pulled it off?

28:34 Do you think it was like I don't know if

28:36 you're religious or like you believe in any of that, but Yeah.

28:39 I mean, I think God, you know,

28:41 I feel like there's a reason that that I'm still here today.

28:44 And I think it's it's to do to do too good, you know,

28:47 to do good things with uh lessons that I've learned in the life that I've led,

28:51 you know, to help other people not make make that same the same path.

28:55 There's got to be because even when I was uh writing the book, you know,

28:59 like you don't think when when you're in the thick

29:01 of it and all this stuff is happening, it's just like your life.

29:04 Like this is just how it is.

29:06 And when I was, it took me a few years to finish writing

29:09 the book because I'm going through it and I mean I'm even telling

29:12 like the like my girl and a couple other people I'm saying like

29:15 my god I forgot I almost forgot about this or like I'm writing

29:19 about this incident and then I'm remembering other things that that took

29:23 place and and uh I was like my gosh if I hadn't lived

29:27 this life I don't know if I would even believe this but I

29:30 don't even I'm alive you know like it's it's just so it's so Crazy.

29:36 It's so crazy.

29:37 There was just so much of stuff like that and and um it's Yeah,

29:42 I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

29:44 I really wouldn't.

29:45 Wow.

29:46 They might have to turn this into a movie, man.

29:49 I I think I think with the there's been some

29:51 interest uh from the book from filmmakers and things like that.

29:55 Um because it it is uh I definitely think it'll it'll be a film someday.

30:00 I just I don't we don't have the right filmmaker just yet.

30:02 I don't think.

30:04 Yeah.

30:04 Well, hopefully one day.

30:05 I'd love to see it on film, man.

30:08 Um, all right.

30:09 Anything else here?

30:10 What are you working on now since the book's out?

30:12 You're just promoting it now.

30:14 Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping that a lot of people uh get a hold of the book

30:17 and and do that, but I'm also working with um

30:20 I I work with a number of different organizations.

30:22 I'm a public speaker, so I've been uh all over the world.

30:26 I've spoken in um uh Canada, Turkey, Australia.

30:31 I just got back from my Australia tour with the book.

30:33 Wow.

30:34 Um, in August and September, I spoke at the Nobel Peace Center in uh,

30:39 Norway, which is that was I mean, uh, like a dream come true.

30:43 Un unbelievable.

30:45 Um, and I work uh, I do some

30:48 public speaking and consulting with the Simon Whisinthal Center,

30:51 which is an international uh, uh, human rights organization, Jewish uh,

30:55 human rights organization, but they cover human rights, all people.

30:59 So I do talks at schools and and uh try to make

31:03 sure uh help young people not get radicalized whether that's into gangs,

31:08 extremist groups or anything like that because there's parallel

31:11 and cults because there's parallels even there as well like

31:14 with gangs you know there's some other things that are

31:16 a little different you know like the criminal aspect

31:18 of it and that but uh believe it or not

31:21 there's parallels there too you know and and like

31:23 I said meeting people from the different extremist groups

31:27 and realizing the psychological holds uh hold them in place.

31:32 I mean, it it makes it makes a big difference.

31:34 So, um I've I've helped a lot of young people um not

31:39 go down those those paths and to kind of explain, you know,

31:42 it's one thing to say, hey, you know,

31:44 look what I did and don't don't do this, but sometime and you know,

31:47 people just h I'm a tough guy.

31:49 I'm in this gang or I'm in this crew and and and uh you know,

31:52 I've got it all figured out because I was that guy, too.

31:55 I I thought that and um you don't think about

31:59 the the ripple effects what it can do to your life, you know.

32:03 So, I'll tell the young uh especially in the schools,

32:06 I'll tell the young people like the ripple effects that this had

32:08 on my family like it destroyed it wrecked my mom's career.

32:13 It uh it uprooted so many different things, you know,

32:16 and caused uh issues for my children and and everything.

32:19 Anybody that's attached to you, it is like a ripple effect.

32:23 I mean, it can affect it's it affected some of the um girls that I dated over

32:28 the years with their careers and different things

32:30 like that and and and my own as well.

32:32 So, it's like it's stuff that they don't think about.

32:36 Or if you're in a gang, you say, "I'm in this gang.

32:38 I don't care.

32:39 You know, my life means nothing to cause or this group

32:42 means everything," which is the mindset that I had.

32:45 And and then I say to him, I said, "Okay, you're in this gang.

32:48 What happens when a rival gang does a driveby

32:51 at your parents house and clips your little sister

32:54 or your mom and you see every face

32:56 in the room go whoa cuz they didn't think about that.

32:59 They were thinking about themselves and all that but they didn't

33:02 think about the effect that it might have on their family.

33:04 So, if we can um stem the tide to some of that stuff,

33:08 um I think that will be uh very helpful because once you're in it,

33:12 like when this stuff was happening to to me that was affecting my family's life,

33:17 I just felt like, oh well, the government is after my family now, so guess what?

33:21 I'm going to fight harder.

33:22 I'm going to do more.

33:23 I'm going to build this army and I'm going

33:25 to fight back and I'm going to take this country.

33:27 You know, like that's that's basically the mindset that I had

33:30 and a lot of people have when they get put under pressure.

33:33 it doesn't work.

33:34 It doesn't work as far as helping you disengage once you're in it.

33:37 A lot of times it it uh causes you to become further entrenched,

33:41 which is exactly what what happened in my case.

33:44 So, um if we can stem that tide and show people before

33:48 they ever get involved in it in the first place, that's ideal.

33:52 So, that's what uh fuels a lot of my work now.

33:54 But I also uh run a nonprofit called Beyond Barriers that helps pull people out.

33:59 So, if they have screwed up and made that mistake and got

34:01 involved in this stuff in the first place, there's still hope.

34:04 There's still a way out.

34:05 Um, people like myself and a lot of the other guys uh

34:08 and ladies that are out here uh that have been through that, you know,

34:12 we're here as a support and um you know, we can help.

34:16 But ideally, if if people don't get involved

34:18 in it in the first place, that's the best.

34:21 Yeah, we'll include a link to the charity in the video, too.

34:23 Thanks for doing that.

34:24 Um, so so you're speaking all over the world about this.

34:27 It's not just a western issue all over the world.

34:31 Um, you wouldn't believe some of the uh commonalities

34:35 in in different places and uh things that we're seeing.

34:40 Even when I was in Australia,

34:41 some of the same exact problems that we have here, they have there.

34:45 So, it's it's uh it's definitely a global issue.

34:48 It's something that uh where a difference can be made

34:50 all over the world to stem the tide of this stuff.

34:53 Do you see any common traits with the type of people that are being recruited,

34:58 whether it's a gang or a extremist group?

35:00 Like, do you see a lack of father figure?

35:02 Do you see any similarities with the uh people they're recruiting?

35:06 You know, that's a that's a thing that um when I first got out,

35:09 I was criticizing because um a lot of the academics were saying,

35:15 well, only people that are getting involved in this are

35:17 coming from like broken homes or they were taught this.

35:20 And that does happen that those cases are real and that is that is

35:24 a common uh thread for a lot of people but it's not always the case

35:28 and in fact uh um it's not even most of the time the case

35:32 it but these are all factors that can go into that but it's really hard

35:36 to say like this demographic or this group of people is more susceptible to it

35:41 because I think um you know from the outside looking in we could say

35:44 well you know if someone's joining one of these hate groups they got to be

35:48 really like low intelligent and they've or they've

35:51 they've been taught this stuff at home.

35:53 There's all these thoughts and you have of course

35:56 you have those you have people that fit stereotypes,

35:59 but you also have people that are of high

36:01 intelligence that get involved in this stuff and cult

36:03 is a perfect example like you said you've

36:05 you've looked into cults and and things like that.

36:08 You find people in some of those groups that are

36:10 doctors and and uh all kinds of things and you think,

36:13 "Wow, how did they fall for that?" Yeah,

36:16 like some of these calls are so I I study this stuff too,

36:20 you know, and and you like it there was one I won't name them,

36:23 but there was one where they're they think they're talking to Robin

36:26 Williams in heaven and and that and these and you go

36:30 and person has a master's degree, you know, like Yeah.

36:34 So, I mean, that's why I say anybody's susceptible to it.

36:36 So, whenever somebody says like, "Oh, this talk isn't for me.

36:40 I don't need to hear this.

36:41 I would never join a hate group.

36:42 I'd never join a gang." Oh,

36:44 let let you know anybody is is uh anybody could be susceptible to it.

36:52 So, um I I think we shouldn't think in that in that mindset where oh,

36:56 I would never fall for this because um a lot of people a lot of people can.

37:00 So, we need to uh um boost our our own critical thinking skills

37:05 and our ability to discern disinformation and misinformation

37:09 and malinformation and things like of that nature.

37:12 So, we we look into things before we slide into these these dark places.

37:18 Yeah.

37:18 I guess the one similarity I've seen from the cult study is

37:21 they're good at uh kind of manipulating your your emotions, you know?

37:27 Yeah.

37:27 I think that's the one thing I've noticed.

37:28 It's like they'll spot a weakness in in your emotion and they

37:31 can kind of manipulate that into making you join or someone.

37:36 For sure.

37:36 Yeah.

37:36 I mean, manipulation is a huge part of it.

37:39 And then um the emotional response as well.

37:41 And that even goes back to that reciprocal radicalization um uh

37:46 thing I mentioned earlier where you feel like compelled like well I've

37:51 got to do this or or our country is going to be

37:54 gone or I have to do this because God said so.

37:57 And this is and this is a a uh

37:59 another uh commonality is like groups like ISIS, you know,

38:03 and a lot of times, you know, they'll say like, okay,

38:05 so um this person was chopping heads off and and things like that.

38:11 How does that happen?

38:12 That must be an a really evil,

38:14 insane person and or a psychopath and and in some cases, yes.

38:18 But in other cases, that's an individual that was

38:21 radicalized to believe they're doing the work of God,

38:23 that they're they're serving a higher power.

38:25 And and you I always find it interesting like when the media or somebody goes

38:30 and interviews somebody that knew this young

38:32 man or woman growing up and say, "Well,

38:34 I knew uh John growing up and and um he was

38:37 a nice young man that helped little old ladies cross the street

38:40 and all this kind of I don't know how he ended

38:42 up in ISIS doing that sort of thing or in an group,

38:46 but it's that's the radicalization that it can it

38:48 can take a person that's got a good heart, that's got a good uh

38:53 um wanting to do something good and turn it into something evil.

38:58 Yeah.

38:58 It's a very interesting point because you we think in terms of good and evil,

39:01 but those people that are doing these heinous acts

39:04 think what they're doing is good like you said, right?

39:08 Yes.

39:08 Yeah.

39:08 And that's that's a hard thing for some people to wrap their minds around.

39:12 And and um um when I say that, it's not that I'm excusing it.

39:16 I'm trying to explain the psychology of it as well.

39:19 because I think if we don't understand the psychology of it,

39:21 if we don't understand um how a person can get to that place,

39:25 how can we confront it?

39:26 How can we combat it?

39:28 How can we fix it?

39:29 And that was one of the first things that I noticed after I had gotten

39:32 out is that there was there was some of the people that were speaking out.

39:35 They were just uh saying things like, "Well, I was just filled full of hate.

39:38 I just woke up every day and I was just filled

39:40 full of hate and I hated everybody." And I'm thinking, my gosh.

39:44 Um, I don't want to say that they're lying,

39:46 but I'm say they're not articulating their feelings correctly.

39:50 And this is what people think from the outside is

39:53 that it's just all wrapped up in this hate thing.

39:55 And I and I try to explain it.

39:57 Hate is a byproduct.

39:58 Hate is not the the driver for this stuff.

40:00 If hate is the driver,

40:02 you've got some other psychological issues that need to be addressed.

40:05 That's just a weird thing to to have like your life revolve around.

40:09 These people believe that they're part of some kind of uh

40:12 most of them believe that they're part of a greater cause,

40:14 something that's greater than themselves.

40:16 And that's why it's so hard to uh break that ideology and and get

40:20 through to somebody and why telling somebody

40:22 that they're wrong doesn't typically work either.

40:25 You have to show them how they're wrong.

40:27 That is interesting.

40:28 Yeah.

40:28 Leading by hate is dangerous.

40:30 Same with I think anger too.

40:31 A lot of people can't control their anger, you know?

40:36 Right.

40:36 And especially if you have those impulse uh uh tough ability

40:40 to control those impulses and you get involved in an extremist group,

40:44 now you've just got all these more reasons to be angry and enraged and and uh

40:48 fly off the handle or snap and it's

40:51 it's a short road between hatred and violence.

40:54 It's a it's a short uh it's a very short road.

40:57 Now, you must have had really good emotional control to make

40:59 it that long because when you study all the top mafia guys,

41:02 a lot of their downfall was their ego and their emotion, right?

41:05 Yeah.

41:06 And that that was something that um you have to have a lot of control.

41:11 The organization that I was uh running had a very strict structure.

41:16 It it was structured a lot like the military.

41:18 So there was ranks and and things like that.

41:20 And that was also to control the individuals

41:22 in it because if somebody uh stepped out of line

41:25 and broke the rules that could uh blow

41:28 back on the organization and other people, you know.

41:30 Then you catch things like aiding in abetting charges

41:33 or that uh you know you you uh were complicit

41:37 in something because you let somebody go do something um

41:40 and you knew that they were going to do it.

41:42 There's people sitting in prison for 40 years for stuff like that for uh

41:46 somebody saying something illegal and then they

41:48 just not not doing anything about it.

41:50 Um, so I was hyper aware of that sort of thing.

41:53 And from uh

41:56 one lesson or one one experience that I share in the book early on was

42:00 an attempt by the government to set us up with um uh military surplus,

42:08 I I guess we could call it.

42:10 And um I'm like 19, I think, at the time.

42:13 18 19 years old.

42:15 This is before I was running the group.

42:17 And I'm thinking, "Oh, cool.

42:18 we're going to get all this military stuff.

42:20 This is great.

42:21 And you know, it's just being a kid thinking, you know,

42:25 not that I was going to go out and do anything bad with it,

42:27 but I just thought, "Oh,

42:28 that'll be cool to have all these all these weapons and things like that because

42:32 um in my mind there was going to be a race war, a civil war.

42:35 The country was going to fall apart." And uh you know,

42:39 this was some stuff we didn't have.

42:40 You know, we had some weapons and not not all this stuff.

42:44 And uh turns out that was a that was an entrapment attempt.

42:48 So wow, learning that lesson early on and seeing that because

42:52 the guy that was running the uh NSM at the time,

42:56 he he he knew what it was right away.

42:59 And um after learning that lesson, then I started becoming very careful.

43:04 So, um, learning things early on and and, uh,

43:08 seeing that and then keeping a tightly controlled environment,

43:12 um, kept me out of that's why I say most people won't make it.

43:16 They will not make it.

43:16 They'll end up in prison or dead.

43:19 Yeah.

43:20 You you said there was ranks earlier.

43:21 Was it always your goal to climb the ranks and get

43:23 to the highest level or did that kind of just happen over time?

43:27 No, for me that wasn't a goal.

43:29 I just wanted to be part of it.

43:30 So, um, but when I first joined, um, I was recruiting a lot of people.

43:34 I was bringing people in.

43:34 So, I was appointed local group leader and, um, South St.

43:39 Paul at the time where I lived, excuse me.

43:42 And then, um, I just moved up rather quickly.

43:46 And then the leader was looking to retire and asked

43:48 me if I wanted to take over the organization.

43:50 And I was thinking like, uhoh.

43:53 Uh, this isn't really something that I I didn't see myself doing.

43:56 I didn't necessarily want to do it, but I didn't say no either.

43:59 I was like, "Okay, well, I'll take this on." And he's he would still

44:02 help mentor me or give me advice or whatever.

44:06 But a lot of it was learning uh learning along the way.

44:09 But um it's from a leadership perspective when you in my experience,

44:15 the guys that would come, guys or gals,

44:17 whatever, when they would come to the organization and be like,

44:19 "Hey, I'm going to be a big leader.

44:21 You know, you should, you know, give me this rank or whatever.

44:24 I can recruit.

44:24 I'll have 20 new recruits in two weeks or or things like that.

44:29 Those guys were always the worst leaders.

44:32 They didn't recruit nobody.

44:34 They were terrible leaders because they had

44:36 this mindset that they were uh above everybody else.

44:39 It was usually the reluctant leaders or the people that were willing to just

44:43 you know boots to the ground uh be willing to do stuff the true

44:47 believers um that weren't in it about ego or self but the cause

44:53 because I mean over the years you had to the cause was above friendships.

44:58 It was above everything like and it's really sad or you know

45:02 when you think about it from a humanistic perspective that's really sad.

45:08 Yeah.

45:07 And and it's tragic.

45:08 Tragic is the word I think I was looking for.

45:10 I mean, it's it's a tragic way to to think and live, you know.

45:14 Wow.

45:14 I didn't know is is it was that important.

45:16 So, would you say when you were actively in it,

45:19 it took more importance than your own family?

45:24 Oo, that's a that's a deep question, Sean.

45:27 Um Oh, you got me on this one.

45:30 Um the I mean, I'd like to say no.

45:36 I mean, family should always come first, 100%.

45:39 But like, when you're wrapped up in this stuff,

45:41 it becomes your your whole your whole world.

45:44 And um you don't see it's almost like you don't

45:48 see the cost that it's having on your family, you know?

45:51 Um you you realize it,

45:53 but you you think it's you you tell yourself it's for a greater cause.

45:57 Like um some of the people that left, they'll say, "Well,

46:01 I left because I had kids now and and I didn't

46:04 want them to live this life." So, I got away from it.

46:07 Other people would have been were like, I'm doing this.

46:11 I'm in this cause for my kids, you know,

46:13 and and they're going to have a better future because of this.

46:16 And I was of more of that mindset, but at the same time,

46:20 um I started looking at some of the things that were

46:23 happening in in later years that I was involved in it.

46:26 And I always kept my kids kind of they knew I was involved, but I kept them

46:32 separate from it, you know.

46:33 So, it still damaged them, but they were never like active in it.

46:37 And sometimes people would ask that like, well, why why aren't they active?

46:40 Cuz some people would bring their have their kids active in it and stuff.

46:43 And I always thought, well, it was a hard question for me to answer at the time,

46:47 but I always figured like every parent wants

46:50 a better life for their kids than what they had.

46:52 I survived assassination attempts and all this violence

46:55 and all these different things that happened over the years.

46:58 I didn't want that for my kids.

46:59 I didn't want that.

47:00 I mean, I don't wish that on I don't wish that on my enemies,

47:04 much less your family.

47:05 But, um, I think I think everybody would tell you family comes first,

47:09 but in the reality of it, when you're mixed up in the thickness of this stuff,

47:13 like it's really the cause that comes first.

47:15 And and I saw so many people like throw away throw away

47:20 relationships or become ostracized from their families

47:22 or the families would ostracize them.

47:25 I was very fortunate in that sense where my family didn't completely cut me off,

47:29 but I saw it um time and time again with other people.

47:33 So the isolation becomes like uh all consuming as well.

47:37 So even if somebody's having second thoughts,

47:40 now they're in the cult or this extremist group, you name it.

47:43 I mean, they're all kind of the same in that sense.

47:45 Now you're in this and you're having second thoughts,

47:48 but your family's shut the door on you.

47:51 all your old friends and everybody you knew from before,

47:53 they're like, "Oh, he's involved.

47:54 He or she's involved in this stuff.

47:56 I don't like them.

47:57 I don't like the way they've become.

47:59 I don't want no part of that." So now you're like standing out on this uh

48:03 on this um diving board or alone and um

48:08 it's easier to stay involved in in what you're in.

48:11 So that was a that was a pull too for me, you know,

48:14 like my whole my career, my business,

48:16 everything was and everybody I knew was wrapped up in it.

48:18 So, um, it it took me a little bit to break free from it.

48:23 Yeah.

48:23 That's probably why it's so hard for people to leave because

48:26 their their own family usually cut them off by that point and, uh,

48:29 when they leave, they got no one, right?

48:31 Right.

48:32 Or if families are in it, that's even even another complexity.

48:35 That's there there's just so many complexities to it.

48:39 Yeah.

48:39 You mentioned uh enemies earlier.

48:41 Have you pretty much uh made peace with your enemies?

48:44 Any resentment still there?

48:47 Um, that's a tough thing to say.

48:51 Like I I don't I don't view people as I

48:55 guess I wouldn't say I view people as necessarily enemies,

48:57 but there's I'm sure there's people that view me as an enemy.

49:00 um in the movement when you leave you uh a lot of times

49:03 you can leave and you're you're fine depending on the group but if

49:08 you leave and speak out against it you're considered like uh a traitor

49:11 basically that uh they find that really uh offensive and they don't like it.

49:16 Um I don't attack the I don't attack the individuals

49:19 when I when I uh speak about this stuff.

49:22 I I attack the ideology.

49:24 So I'm not saying that the people are bad.

49:26 But I'm saying that they're people that are caught

49:28 up in some bad stuff and and got him.

49:31 Well, that doesn't if if you're a radicalized individual, that doesn't matter.

49:34 You know, they're beh um and I feel like I'm I'm doing an honorable thing now.

49:49 So, I mean, that that's that.

49:51 I didn't snitch on people.

49:52 I didn't uh you know, send people to jail or anything like that.

49:56 I think um you know that's a little different.

49:59 Everybody you know has their own choices to make in life.

50:01 I didn't do anything like that.

50:03 Um so I I've got credibility in a lot of their eyes in the sense

50:07 of like well if he left and changed his life maybe I can too.

50:11 So there's another reason why I wanted to do the work that I'm doing now.

50:15 But um you know I mean as far as as far

50:17 as that goes when I first left there was a lot

50:19 of challenges because you know the people a lot of the people

50:22 on the left would say once a Nazi always a Nazi.

50:25 I don't believe him or he done doxed everybody on his way out.

50:28 So, he's still a Nazi.

50:30 I mean, everybody's a Nazi if if if uh if you

50:34 don't like what they're doing or you don't agree with them.

50:36 And then on the uh from the Nazi side,

50:39 well, he's a traitor because he's speaking out against us.

50:42 So, I I I went from fighting the left uh to getting it from all,

50:47 you know, from both sides in a sense.

50:49 So, um I guess uh out of the frying pan into the into the flames,

50:54 you know, but I'm doing the right thing.

50:56 So, I I I don't have any uh I don't have any regrets.

51:01 Um has your view of snitches changed since

51:03 I know you definitely hated them uh before, but how do you feel about them now?

51:08 Oh.

51:12 Um, I personally I personally wouldn't I mean I had

51:15 uh interestingly enough like I mean we uncovered quite a few

51:18 when I was involved in that because we were uh

51:21 really keen and aware of it and were looking for it.

51:24 But I had a couple people that had contacted me after I left

51:28 and told me that they were snitches when they were involved.

51:32 And I Whoa.

51:33 Um that's interesting you know.

51:35 Um, and obviously I would never I would never uh say anything,

51:40 but um you know name anybody, but um I personally wouldn't wouldn't do it.

51:46 Um I mean if somebody come to me, you know,

51:48 they're going to go kill people or something,

51:50 that's a little different, I think.

51:52 But um I don't know.

51:54 It's it's it's a it's a good question.

51:55 It's a complicated question,

51:57 but um I understand it because I mean law enforcement especially has

52:01 a job to do and if people are are engaged in criminal activities,

52:04 you know, you have to uh be concerned about that.

52:07 Me personally, um I was approached a couple of times over the years

52:12 to try try to flip me or or turn me or whatever.

52:15 And I just said, "You got the wrong person."

52:17 And uh that's not something I I mean I even had people uh offer to buy me out

52:21 for like a million dollars at point and uh

52:27 what wait what what do you mean by that?

52:28 Like a group wanted to control your what you were saying?

52:31 I was approached at one point by an individual

52:34 that said um there was a there was

52:36 several of us from the leadership from the group at an at at a at a meeting

52:42 and an individual said that they knew somebody

52:45 that was a you know rich in Hollywood

52:48 or whatever and they said what if that person offered you guys a million dollars

52:53 to wa just walk away.

52:56 Wow.

52:55 Just walk away.

52:56 What would you do?

52:57 And we put up the middle fingers.

52:58 So you you can tell your friend to shove it.

53:02 Exploitative.

53:02 Exploitative.

53:03 But yeah.

53:04 So I was never for sale.

53:06 Um as far as that goes.

53:09 So you didn't have a price to walk away?

53:14 No.

53:13 Wow.

53:14 And you ended up walking away for free.

53:15 So is that a regret of yours to not take the money?

53:19 Well, that was I mean that was years before.

53:21 But no, I I wouldn't I I wasn't doing it for money,

53:24 you I mean the thing is I had I had financial stability

53:27 when I was involved and I walked out into this unknown world afterwards.

53:33 You know this civilian life I never led before with nothing.

53:36 So I gave up everything as I was leaving.

53:39 So um in the public you know the the you

53:42 know there was stories circulating in the media.

53:45 Oh, he left because he got sued in this lawsuit

53:48 or he left because of this, you know,

53:49 or they they just make up whatever they want

53:51 to say and they run with these stories and it's like,

53:54 my gosh, you know, like um uh or or he's doing this or that.

53:59 People come up with their own own reasons.

54:01 But um basically I I went from a place

54:04 of having uh perceived power and influence and being

54:09 at the very top of the world that I was involved in and having I wouldn't I

54:13 wasn't rich or anything but I I guess

54:15 comfortable and um into an unknown world with nothing

54:21 on a job resume but running a white power

54:24 record label for many many years running the Nazi party.

54:28 like what I mean that that's quite a LinkedIn profile, you know.

54:33 Did you have the bit of a identity crisis, you'd say, when you left?

54:36 Like it took some years to get back into the flow of things?

54:42 Um, it was challenging.

54:45 It was it was really challenging.

54:46 But um once I put out uh once I put out

54:49 my website that I was going to speak out against hate and racism,

54:53 I got contacted by the Simon Weezenthal Center um which is

54:57 an international human rights organization and um and um within a couple

55:02 of days uh the head of research there was

55:05 on a on a plane out to Detroit to meet with me and ask,

55:08 you know, well, what do you want to do

55:10 with your life and everything now that you you've left the movement?

55:13 and and I said, "Well, I want to I want to be a peaceuilder.

55:16 I want to uh use the lessons of my past to to help

55:20 others so people don't make the same mistake." And and um you know,

55:24 wethal has been very uh um was very supportive when a lot of other people um

55:32 wouldn't see me as anything else but the person that I was for all those years.

55:35 So, that was it was a it was a very difficult time at first.

55:39 And there's still I mean there's always going to be people that that uh

55:42 that don't believe in change or that can't embrace that and and um

55:46 those of us that have led that kind of life and we

55:48 just have to be okay with that and just say you know okay

55:51 you know I can't convince everybody I can't expect everybody to forgive

55:55 or forget that but all I can do is live life correctly and you

56:00 know the best I can and um help others and know and know

56:04 that and I know that I've I've saved so many lives countless lives Like,

56:09 so I I feel very good about that and that's that's u that's

56:13 the best thing I could possibly do with it because I've had a lot

56:16 of people ask well why didn't you just go into business or why didn't

56:20 you do you know something else because I understand business you know I have

56:23 these I have these skills so why not do that instead of this because

56:27 this is this is stressful you know you uh bring back up old traumas

56:31 and and think about this stuff and you put yourself um out there um

56:36 but I feel like this is the best thing that I can do for humanity.

56:40 Like, it's not about when I was in the cause,

56:43 it wasn't about me either, you know?

56:45 It was about the cause.

56:46 So, I switched missions now, but now I'm actually doing something good

56:50 instead of just thinking I'm doing something good.

56:52 I love it.

56:53 Well, Jeeoff, thanks for your time, man.

56:54 I can't wait to listen to your book.

56:55 We'll link it in the video, your charity, your speaking engagements.

56:58 Anything else you want to close off with here?

57:01 Um, I would just say to anybody that's out there that's struggling,

57:04 it doesn't matter what it is.

57:05 you know, this isn't about just, you know, uh,

57:07 somebody that was in a neo-Nazi group or or anything like that.

57:11 Whatever struggle that you're going through,

57:13 if you're trying to change your life,

57:14 if you've gotten into some bad stuff, there's still hope for you.

57:17 If you're still alive,

57:18 you're you're not uh stuck behind bars for the rest of your life.

57:22 You're still alive.

57:23 You're still out there.

57:23 You've have that opportunity to change.

57:26 Um, that's the really the underlying message of of my book

57:30 is if somebody like me can do it, then you can do it, too.

57:33 you know, if if someone can go from that kind of darkness

57:36 for 27 years and change their life around, you can too.

57:40 So, that's that's what I really want to uh get across to people is is a lot

57:43 of times people give up and they lose hope

57:45 on things and they feel like their lives are over.

57:48 Especially young people, you know,

57:50 you get to this, oh my gosh, my girlfriend left me.

57:52 I'm going to go take my life or something.

57:54 You know, they get these terrible ideas in their head

57:57 because [music] they feel like it's all over with.

57:59 Life gets better.

58:00 There's always a light at the end of that tunnel.

58:03 there's still hope and and you still have opportunity to to make things happen.

58:07 So, it's a real honor for me to be on the show, Sean,

58:09 and thanks for having me and and uh um you know,

58:12 keep up the good work out there.

58:14 Absolutely.

58:15 Thanks for your time, man.

58:16 Thanks for watching to the end, guys.

58:17 [music] Please comment below your thoughts on the episode.

58:20 If you agree, if you disagree, I'd love to hear it.

58:22 I read every single comment.

58:23 Means a lot to me.

58:24 Thank you so much.