"PSYCHIC Program!" - Neuroscientist on Remote Viewing, STARGATE & Telepathy | Julia Mossbridge • 415

0:07 [music] Julia, I don't even know what to refer to you

0:14 as cuz your resume is so long with so many different things.

0:17 Like what what do you call yourself when someone says,

0:20 "What do you do for a living?"

0:21 I I usually sigh deeply.

0:24 [laughter] And then what?

0:27 I have to figure out like how much I

0:29 want to get into a conversation with this person.

0:31 So if I really really don't, I'll be like, "Oh, I'm a scientist." Boom.

0:35 And then hopefully like I'm gone before they ask, "Well,

0:38 what do you study?" Well, luckily today we have a few hours.

0:41 So you can I can be one of the people that you extrapolate upon that with.

0:45 So besides like being just a general scientist,

0:48 you know, we'll get into all the different things today.

0:50 You don't have to go through all of it right now,

0:51 but just I guess at the top 30,000 foot view,

0:54 what how are you filling your week these days?

0:57 Oh, okay.

0:58 Um, I always have about five or six projects

1:02 at once that that would mostly take all my time.

1:09 And um, I've been accused of of uh having body doubles and such,

1:14 but I think what it is is um I I do

1:17 most of my work in my sleep so that during the day

1:20 I kind of like go with the flow and just do

1:21 the thing and then I make all the decisions at night.

1:23 So anyway, I say that as a preamble because when

1:26 I tell you kind of how I film my week, it's going to be a little irritating.

1:30 Um, here we go.

1:33 So [laughter] that's just a perfect way of putting it.

1:35 I'm not surprised.

1:36 Okay.

1:37 Um, so I have a a new startup.

1:39 It's called American Electronamics.

1:40 We're in stealth mode.

1:42 So that's just a thing.

1:43 Um, so I'm the chief science officer and president of that.

1:46 Very cool.

1:47 And then I have a nonprofit that I founded in 2019 called Tilt,

1:51 the Institute for Love and Time.

1:52 We are just changing our name to Applied Love Labs which I'm super

1:57 excited about and by the time this airs the name change will be complete.

2:01 So um that's about uh right now I work in the workshop

2:05 or the lab uh which is like the innovation lab for this nonprofit.

2:09 We're trying to create technology

2:10 that helps people feel unconditional love which

2:13 is um like we're going to talk about that I hope because Oh definitely.

2:16 I'm I'm already intrigued this year.

2:18 Okay.

2:18 Yeah.

2:18 It's a powerful powerful motivational healing experience for people

2:23 to feel and it can help make you more psychic.

2:26 So there's that and then I do so that's fun.

2:30 And then I um I am working on a uh also stealth mode comedy TV series.

2:40 Can't talk about that but fun related to intelligence community stuff.

2:48 Oh

2:48 I've can't talk about that.

2:51 But I am going to be talking at a conference

2:54 coming up in Montana with between the intelligence community and Hollywood.

2:57 So that's super interesting.

2:59 Oh, I could just see the comments buzzing right now.

3:02 I volunteer for uh I volunteer to provide some

3:07 kind of insight from the outside of the intelligence community.

3:11 So I I know a lot of people in the intelligence

3:13 community who are really actually working hard to do good things and

3:18 Oh, they exist.

3:19 No, there's like three of them.

3:21 [laughter] There's many also who have left.

3:26 [laughter] Um so I know a lot of people also

3:29 who have left but so every once in a while

3:31 I'll like give a talk about you know how

3:33 the brain works related to how people function or

3:36 what would be the best way to use AI

3:38 to do uh analysis in intelligence work or something like that.

3:43 Hey guys, three quick things.

3:44 Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe.

3:46 It's a huge huge help.

3:48 Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon

3:50 for early uncensored releases of the full episodes,

3:52 you can join via the link in my description or in the pin comment below.

3:56 And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community

3:58 for a chance to make content from the show and make money,

4:01 you can join via the Discord link in my description below.

4:04 So that's another thing that I do.

4:05 I I interface a lot with the fringe communities

4:08 and I give talks um related to exceptional human performance.

4:14 Yes.

4:14 And those are both fringe communities in sort of the outside world

4:17 and fringe communities in the intelligence

4:19 community and fringe communities in academia.

4:21 So all these there's there's fringes everywhere and they

4:24 kind of come together in this space of UFOs, UAP,

4:28 um psionics, which is another which is a recent term for SI capacities.

4:33 I call it all exceptional human performance.

4:35 I've been studying it for 20 years and um

4:39 and it's very exciting and has a lot to do with human potential.

4:42 So that's another thing that I do.

4:43 And I work with

4:46 um the telepathy tapes people.

4:48 Kai Dickens introduced me independently.

4:51 So like I'm being just to be clear I'm

4:53 being funded our project is being funded through different folks

4:56 but introduced me to to a bunch of folks working

4:58 on how to understand the minds of non-speaking autistic people.

5:02 So for the last year I've been

5:03 really looking into that especially visav exceptional human

5:07 performance and how to protect autistic non-speakers

5:11 from um people wanting to exploit their communities.

5:15 Sure.

5:16 And so all those things are things that I would love to talk about.

5:19 Oh, well that's we we got our work cut out for us.

5:21 You might have to come back after this one for sure.

5:24 I'm open to it.

5:24 I don't know if we'll get to all that, but it's amazing stuff.

5:27 I one quick point before we go through

5:31 the beginning of that with the telepathy tapes is

5:33 I got to say that one really caught me off guard when I heard what that was.

5:38 I was like, come on.

5:39 [laughter] And then I listen I had a really long car ride.

5:42 This is over a year ago.

5:43 and I listened to it and I was like, you know, there's a there there.

5:49 I don't know if it's fully what they're saying,

5:52 but it's not there's it's it's not nothing.

5:54 There is something something extraordinary there.

5:57 And then I had Scott Sherwood in here whose daughter

5:59 Lily was [snorts] one of the children who was a part

6:04 of the telepathy tapes and like talking with him a bunch

6:06 off camera and then on camera as well in episode 280,

6:09 you know, he you you could see you could see like as a father

6:14 like him trying to understand this as well and being open to it.

6:19 It was like kind of a beautiful thing to see,

6:21 but it sounds like we have only just scratched the surface there.

6:25 Tip of the iceberg.

6:26 Yeah.

6:27 So that's right.

6:29 Your experience that you had matches a bunch of scientist friends

6:33 and collaborators of mine who some of whom were absolutely skeptical,

6:37 some of whom I mean initially before listening to the show,

6:41 some of whom were sort of on the fence, some of whom study this stuff,

6:45 right?

6:45 And all of us listened to this and we were like, well,

6:51 someone did a really good job of faking all this or [laughter] it's real and it

6:58 felt [clears throat] very real and um

7:02 and there's all sorts of arguments against it, right?

7:05 I mean, in other words, you have to do actual science and a podcast

7:09 isn't actual science and Kai Dickens knows that.

7:11 That's right.

7:12 [laughter] I mean podcast I mean entertainment is about covering what's

7:16 going on in these other worlds that aren't in not everything happens

7:19 in the world of entertainment and so you know people have accused Kai

7:24 and other people of well why didn't you do this this controller why

7:26 didn't you do that rigorous thing and it's like well because we're

7:29 a podcast we're not a bunch of scientists so that's actually why

7:33 Kai wanted scientists to study this stuff which I really respect right

7:36 and so she had Diane Powell come on and talk about her stuff

7:40 and you know I've known Diane for years and she and I are on good terms.

7:45 We don't work together much because we have very different approaches,

7:48 but we really, you know, we get a lot from each other.

7:51 That's cool.

7:51 How how do you have different approaches?

7:53 Like, what do you mean when you say that?

7:54 Well, you know, as you saw in um telepathy tapes,

7:57 if you saw any of the the reals, but also even talking about it.

8:01 I saw some clips of that, but I listened to the it was all pretty much all

8:06 Yeah, I I usually do that, too.

8:08 So um so she tends to work with All right.

8:13 So in the in cognit so my background is in cognitive

8:15 neuroscience although I'm trying to get people to pronounce it neuroscience.

8:19 Neuroscience.

8:19 Yes.

8:19 Because you know like the word photographer.

8:23 Yeah.

8:22 And then photograph like photograph and photographer.

8:26 When you're a kid it's really hard to put

8:28 the syllable emphasis on the wrong like photographer, right?

8:32 You want to say photographer because they make photographs.

8:34 Okay.

8:35 It's clicking now.

8:36 Okay.

8:36 Yeah.

8:36 So, a neurologist and neuroscientist.

8:43 Neuro is so hard though.

8:44 It's like, yo, I'm a neuro.

8:46 Yeah, it's it's better just to say neuro, right?

8:49 But then what?

8:49 So, anyway, maybe I'll title it like that.

8:51 Neuro neuro.

8:54 Yeah,

8:53 neuro has a lot of street cred.

8:55 But but neuroscientists learn pretty quickly.

8:57 Feel like I bought a baggie of neuro in college, but maybe I misremember

9:00 probably.

9:01 But [laughter] neuroscientists learn like in graduate school

9:04 that we don't understand most of the stuff.

9:07 And that was as true back in the 90s when

9:09 I was in graduate school for neuroscience as it is now.

9:12 Isn't that funny?

9:13 You go to like the highest institution, someone really smart like you as well.

9:18 You get all the way to the graduate school end of it and it's like

9:20 the masters of the universe are teaching you and they walk in and they're like,

9:24 "So basically we don't know anything but here's what we got." if they're good,

9:29 if they're good teachers.

9:30 The bad teachers claim all this knowledge and then you

9:32 start to drill down and ask questions and then they're like,

9:34 "Well, actually, yeah, but whatever.

9:36 We'll figure it out." You know?

9:37 So, there's a lot of that.

9:39 But, um, can you pull the mic down just a little bit

9:41 just so I can see your face a little more?

9:43 Perfect.

9:43 Okay.

9:44 Yeah.

9:44 And then just tilt it towards you.

9:46 There you go.

9:47 Okay.

9:47 All right.

9:47 You're good now.

9:48 Thank you.

9:48 Um, so anyway, back to what I was saying,

9:52 which is that so my background is in neuroscience.

9:55 her backgrounds in um psychiatry, I believe.

9:58 And so she's coming at it from um

10:02 a history of working one-on-one with people, right?

10:05 Which is what you do as a psychiatrist.

10:07 I'm coming at it from a history of doing

10:09 a bunch of experiments with psych 101 students, right?

10:13 They come into your lab, they're trying to get credit for their course,

10:15 and you have them like follow a pointer on the screen

10:18 and figure out what it means or whatever your experiment is, right?

10:21 That's like do that over and over again.

10:22 And that's cognitive neuroscience.

10:24 We're trying to figure out how the brain and the mind are related.

10:27 So when I saw what she was doing, I thought that's totally what you would

10:31 do as a psychiatrist and it's completely valid.

10:34 You would look at for instance uh

10:36 you would multiply some numbers on a calculator

10:39 like big numbers like 394 times 672 and then you would look at it and you

10:44 would say okay person who I'm testing what's you know 394* 672 and then you

10:50 would look at the calculator as they're responding to see if they got it right.

10:55 So that seems like a good way to do it.

10:58 Sure.

10:57 Right.

10:58 Remember when I had Mikey in here for episodes 343 and 351?

11:02 And remember what he said he used to do, allegedly does not still do these days,

11:06 but probably still does in the ways of using

11:09 your publicly available data without you realizing it.

11:11 And remember how he said that there are data

11:13 brokers who make up one of the largest unseen

11:16 industries on Earth who are constantly doing this every

11:19 day with your data that you don't even know about.

11:21 Well, yeah, that's kind of a problem.

11:22 In Mike's case, he was looking at it from a national security perspective.

11:26 In your case, you're looking at it from a privacy perspective,

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12:25 But my background says, "Oh,

12:27 there's all these chances for sensory leakage." You know,

12:30 the sensory leakage is when the information

12:33 about the answer because I'm looking at it

12:34 over here as the experimentter can get over to the person who's over here

12:40 who's answering.

12:42 Yeah.

12:41 Could they could they see like am I not careful about how I'm holding it?

12:45 That's one simple thing, you know.

12:47 Is there is there a reflection somewhere where they could see it?

12:50 Maybe they're not conscious of the of seeing it,

12:52 but it reflects off of a portrait in the background.

12:54 I mean, there's a thousand different ways, right?

12:57 So, I looked at this and I thought, oh, well, two things.

13:01 One is I would not want to use stimula that are just

13:05 letters and numbers because I know from my work with understanding exceptional

13:09 human performance that people actually do best on tasks that are much

13:13 more complex like the simple tasks that are almost like forced choice,

13:17 which means you only have certain numbers and letters.

13:19 you have only 26 letters to choose from.

13:21 You only have, you know, 10 digits counting zero.

13:25 Those are actually harder because you can get very analytical with them, right?

13:30 [clears throat] Whereas the the easier stimula are things like

13:35 describe the video that I'm watching in the next

13:37 room and it could be any video in the world.

13:42 So,

13:42 and and I know that's counterintuitive,

13:43 but that's sort of it's like backwards of what you would expect.

13:47 one feels, you know,

13:48 I might be oversimplifying this, but one feels more like a laundry

13:52 list task and the other one feels more like painting a picture, right?

13:55 And so that's differentiates a little bit about the left and right hemispheres.

14:00 the way we can sort of think of them.

14:02 It's not particularly anatomically correct,

14:04 but there's something to it in that the left

14:07 hemisphere has to do with understanding

14:10 these um analytical things like breaking things down

14:13 into bits and understanding them like you might break,

14:15 you know, words down into letters.

14:17 Uh but also has to do with speaking

14:19 and we're working with students who have trouble speaking.

14:23 So there's probably something going on in the left hemisphere that is

14:27 different from people who don't have trouble speaking at their same age.

14:30 And so at the same time, she was getting 100% correct performance.

14:36 So that person really would answer the question

14:38 about the two difficult to multiply numbers

14:40 or they really would know what passage

14:41 of the book that she was looking at over here.

14:44 Right?

14:44 And so part of my mind said that's amazing and wonderful and exciting and part

14:49 of my mind said maybe it's 100% because

14:51 unconsciously they're getting a different kind of information.

14:55 Right?

14:56 So and she knows that she's talked to me about it.

14:58 We've both talked about it but her background is the way she would do it.

15:02 So I said well I'm going to do it the way I would do it.

15:04 And that's when I set out with the my amazing team.

15:07 So Dr.

15:08 Jeff Terren, Maria Welch, Natalia Mihan, Damon Abraham, I even enlisted my son,

15:14 Joseph Osbridge, Paulie Washburn, a bunch of people to make software.

15:18 So we could have one person in one room and someone's watching

15:22 a video in the other room and the person who's in, you know,

15:25 the receiving room, if this is a telepathy experiment, right?

15:28 It's like we'll call it the receiving room,

15:30 has no cell phone access or any other kind of access to this other

15:34 room and it's far enough away that they can't hear what the video is.

15:37 And then their job is to report on the video.

15:40 Is there anything like if you're dealing with technology guessing though, right?

15:44 Like if you're guessing a video,

15:45 which is obviously playing through a screen, [sighs and gasps]

15:50 this is above my pay grade to kind of ask this.

15:52 No, just ask it.

15:53 But like is there anything from a similar

15:56 parallel technology to like Bluetooth signaling or something

15:59 like that that could potentially be picked up

16:02 on by a gifted brain in the other world?

16:06 Yeah.

16:06 Like yeah maybe I mean so do you mean like

16:08 could the brain pick up on sort of radio waves essentially?

16:13 Exactly.

16:13 Yeah.

16:13 So one of the theories about consciousness is like the radio theory

16:17 of consciousness where the brain is just like a radio it's receiving

16:21 and consciousness is sort of being beamed

16:22 at it but like a question is from where or I think I like to ask from when

16:27 from when because I think [laughter]

16:30 that's an interesting thing to

16:32 you just you're creating these rabbit holes.

16:33 I like it.

16:34 you're going to work.

16:35 Okay.

16:36 [laughter]

16:36 Yeah, I'd like it to.

16:38 Um, so yeah, I that could be that could be happening.

16:42 I actually think there's two different kinds of telepathy.

16:44 I think there's proximity telepathy,

16:46 which is honestly after seeing some of the controls that Kai

16:50 and her her folks did with like headphones and with, you know,

16:53 blinders between people and stuff and they were still able to do this.

16:56 I start to think okay maybe there's proximity telepathy

17:01 that happens right here and that could be more analytical etc

17:04 and maybe there's distance and I and we know there's distance telepathy

17:09 distance telepathy that's like in the like I described that one

17:12 person's in one room one person can be thousands of miles away in fact the best

17:16 most impressive hit we had in our experimental series

17:20 was thousands of miles away we were doing it on Zoom

17:23 I was on Zoom in Virginia Jeff Terren was on Zoom

17:26 in Oregon and the student was working with Maria Welch in Illinois

17:33 and um so the software randomly picked one of the videos.

17:38 So once it's picked a video, it never shows it again.

17:41 So these are like 5 to 10 seconds videos.

17:43 So like once it's shown, we're done.

17:45 And so Jeff is watching the video over

17:47 there because the student has said he would

17:49 like to receive from Jeff though they get

17:52 to choose who they want to receive from, right?

17:54 And so I also know what the video is.

17:57 So I'm also sort of trying to send whatever that means, right?

18:00 We can talk about that.

18:01 And then both of us have our Zoom cameras and Zoom microphones off.

18:05 So we're basically using Zoom to record the student in Illinois, right?

18:11 and the student calls like before so Maria's uh

18:18 right now her job was the she's a speech

18:21 and language pathologist who regulates the students so that they

18:24 can actually use a letter board or a keyboard.

18:27 Okay, in this case I think he was using a letterboard and then he

18:28 was typing after the letterboard he would type it himself on a keyboard.

18:32 [snorts] So he's going towards independence.

18:34 In any case, Maria's sitting there helping him.

18:37 She doesn't know what the video is.

18:39 Obviously, if she knows,

18:40 then someone in the room knows and that's not okay, right?

18:44 There's no sensory leakage here.

18:46 There's no sensory leakage, right?

18:47 And we're thousands of miles away.

18:49 Okay.

18:50 So, we had this protocol where we would give multiple choice

18:55 because this is when I was still scared that they weren't telepathic.

18:58 We would give multiple choice like is this video about X, Y, or Z?

19:02 The problem is the software wasn't working.

19:04 So, the software would normally show the multiple choice to Maria.

19:07 It wasn't working.

19:08 So, I manually sent the multiple choice to Maria

19:12 over Zoom chat so she could read it there.

19:15 But I didn't send it to Maria.

19:17 I sent it to Jeff in Oregon because I had a little chat,

19:21 private chat going with him.

19:23 So, I said, "Here are the questions.

19:25 What is the video about?" And he said,

19:26 "I'm not Maria." And I was like, "Oh crap." Meanwhile,

19:30 while I'm getting ready to send the multiple choice to Maria,

19:34 [gasps] the student answers the question.

19:37 So without

19:38 without the multiple choice, he just he he he just says so so

19:42 the video is about this artistic rendering of the sky.

19:48 It looked almost like someone some artist took northern lights and made

19:51 it more artistic or something with the trees in the background.

19:54 And did they describe it?

19:55 So the student says the video is about art in the sky because

20:00 so they're very concise because they have to put each letter on the board.

20:06 Non-verbal.

20:06 Yeah.

20:06 Yeah.

20:07 So they're they're And then she asks, "Okay,

20:10 cuz she doesn't know what's true, right?" And we're over here going,

20:12 "What the[ __] She doesn't have a multiple choice." Um,

20:16 and so she asks, "Okay, what else?" So the next question is, "What else?

20:19 What else do you learn from the video?" And he says,

20:21 "It's good for us to it's good for us, meaning non-speakers,

20:24 to see weather patterns because they're so beautiful."

20:28 And so it's like he this is this is what

20:31 the pattern that we keep seeing with the science is

20:34 that they take off on whatever it is they're receiving.

20:37 It's not a big deal to them

20:38 and they immediately associate it with something else.

20:41 Like you're having a conversation except we

20:43 can't hear one part of the conversation

20:45 and they can and then they're just going to say the next thing.

20:48 And so it's really it it turns out to be really

20:51 hard to pin down because it's like what if you were

20:54 listening to one half of a conversation and you were trying

20:56 to prove that that person heard what the other one said,

20:58 but they're not going to repeat what the other one said because that's rude.

21:01 The other person just said it, right?

21:04 So it's like if telepathy really exists, it would be like that.

21:08 You know, and this is this is where

21:10 because I really open my mind after listening

21:14 to lepathy tapes to ask myself questions that maybe

21:17 I had never thought to ask because we're, you know, you're born into this world.

21:23 Society molds you.

21:24 They tell you what's real, what's not, what's impossible, what is.

21:28 Yeah.

21:28 Right.

21:28 And I've been a bit of a delusional thinker myself,

21:31 but that delusion hasn't included me thinking I

21:33 could get out of this room and like

21:34 go fly and go to the moon or something like that with my own hands.

21:38 Obviously, I think what happens though is a lot

21:41 of things get grouped into that type of category.

21:44 And telepathy certainly could be one of them.

21:46 And yet, one of the things I was thinking about is I started to think about

21:49 some of the science that I've learned about

21:51 before that's like accepted that people do know.

21:54 And one of the things that came to mind was how

21:57 sometimes when you'll lock eyes with a woman that you're that you're

22:02 really infatuated with and you guys kind of like that time stop

22:06 thing where it doesn't really stop but it feels like it does.

22:09 It's really long.

22:10 It's it's really long because after I forget it off the top of my head now,

22:14 but after a certain number of seconds

22:16 your heartbeats actually if there's continuity there, they synchronize.

22:21 And I said to myself, I said, "How is that not some form of telepathy?"

22:30 Because the internal organs of your body

22:32 that don't have eyes and don't see anything suddenly knows.

22:39 That's the beat that they're giving off.

22:40 So, I'm going to boom, here you are.

22:44 And it can totally change the way your brain

22:46 is now wired towards now you have an infatuation.

22:49 Oh, such good beatboxing.

22:50 Thank you.

22:51 Yeah.

22:51 So, I worked on [laughter] that right before I saw the banjo.

22:54 I was like, "Yo, I gotta step my game." Yeah.

22:55 Yeah.

22:55 Yeah.

22:55 Yeah.

22:55 Yeah.

22:56 Get it, get it going.

22:57 Um, so it could not be telepath.

22:59 So, so part of my job is to always see things

23:02 from the point of view of people who think that this stuff isn't real,

23:04 even though we know, even before telepathy tapes, we know this is real.

23:08 In fact, in 1980s, you can find people writing

23:11 about non-speaking autistic people and how they might be psychic.

23:13 I mean, so this this is a long time coming.

23:17 And but let's assume that you think it's all BS.

23:21 Um, one way to explain the heartbeat thing is, you know,

23:24 you can use a camera and point it at someone and you can

23:28 get their heartbeat from the very subtle changes of red in their skin.

23:31 In fact, some folks at MIT Media Lab did this years ago.

23:35 And so yeah, so you can monitor someone's heart rhythms

23:38 from across the room or you can watch like a, you know,

23:42 an influencer or, you know,

23:44 elite person who CIA wants to get information about

23:47 find out if they're stressed by watching their heart rhythm.

23:51 Well, yeah, that one.

23:52 I'm Well, actually, now that you say it, it's like the same thing.

23:55 You're right.

23:55 It's the same thing.

23:56 And so it's all the same thing.

23:58 And so and so you could subconsciously have that capacity.

24:02 we have so much unconscious capacity and it also could

24:06 be this non-local influence which we also know is real.

24:10 So it's it's a it's a both and.

24:13 You could you could be using one to help set the other.

24:18 We just keep forgetting that the world is bigger as you said than we're taught.

24:24 Right.

24:25 And so what are the implications if the world is bigger than we're taught?

24:29 Because of course it is.

24:31 Right.

24:31 Right.

24:31 So what are the implications?

24:32 Well, the biggest implication I think is that there are no secrets.

24:38 I know what you mean by that, but I want

24:40 to make sure it's not even bigger than what I'm thinking.

24:43 Explain that.

24:44 I'm thinking that like you're getting to well,

24:47 we're going to be at a point where

24:48 everyone can read each other's mind or your thoughts

24:50 are not private and your own and it's just

24:53 it's something that we haven't exactly tapped into yet,

24:55 maybe techn technologically, but it's coming.

24:58 But do you mean beyond that as well?

25:00 like universally if you will

25:02 I think yeah I think I mean beyond that so yeah so I I feel so

25:06 I just wrote this book can I tell you about the book or is that irritating no

25:11 I I'm not good [laughter]

25:12 you can say whatever you want this is so easy like this is just a conversation

25:16 okay all right so I just wrote this book called

25:18 have a nice disclosure and one of the things I oh the yellow one

25:21 the yellow one with the alien on the cover I like that cover that was cool

25:24 my husband drew that

25:25 very cool

25:26 yeah yeah he wanted to come today he says hi but

25:29 oh well hello for pulling it up.

25:30 There it is.

25:31 Mr.

25:31 Mossbridge.

25:32 His actual actual name is Brooks Palmer.

25:34 Okay.

25:34 Hello, Brooks Palmer.

25:36 Great cover.

25:37 Yeah, there it is.

25:37 Okay.

25:38 So, um, in that book,

25:40 I write a lot about this and and I guess I bring it up because I think I

25:45 put it best in the book and I'm hoping I can express it in a useful way here,

25:49 but it's this idea that um, you know, we're living in this what we we we

25:53 have this experience of living in this 3D reality,

25:56 maybe 4D if you include time, right?

25:58 Mhm.

25:58 Maybe there's multiple dimensions of time.

25:59 Whatever dimensions I do want to ask you about that later, but yeah, continue.

26:02 So, whatever.

26:03 I'm really bad with this mic.

26:04 I keep hitting it.

26:05 But [laughter] whatever you want to call this experience

26:08 that we're having in our conscious waking daily,

26:10 you know, non-drugged state, right?

26:14 So, in that state, um,

26:17 we have this experience of I only have access to information that I get through

26:22 my sense organs and you only have access

26:24 to information you get through your sense organs.

26:27 And it's like we're always trying to get information from the outside just like

26:31 I just described about the CIA thing or whatever the heartbeat media lab people.

26:36 It's get what information can we get about

26:38 that person over there from the outside because

26:40 the assumption is there's no way to get

26:42 any information about the inside of that person.

26:45 By inside I don't mean their guts.

26:47 I mean by insight I mean their thoughts,

26:50 their their soul, their their essence, right?

26:57 If you could get that information about

26:59 someone's guts accept theirs like their spiritual guts,

27:03 their soul, their essence, then like what are we doing?

27:06 Like then then it's easy to determine someone's motivation.

27:11 We don't have to guess, you know,

27:12 like Alon Musk and Epstein like we would know, right?

27:17 what the answer to that is.

27:17 We don't have to look at emails, right?

27:20 And I the reason why I'm saying it's

27:22 deeper than just future technology is I think

27:25 there does exist I think the whole it's

27:28 almost like the radio theory of of consciousness.

27:32 All of what is happening and that all of what

27:34 we're experienc I don't know why I'm doing this.

27:36 I guess it's because it's like it's rising up from some information substrate.

27:39 It's like the foundation is information

27:42 and this this is like almost like ones and zeros.

27:46 Yes.

27:47 Right.

27:47 Come up and they form this.

27:49 And that doesn't mean that this isn't real.

27:51 So I'm not into like, oh, simulation theory, none of this is real.

27:54 Like doesn't does you no good.

27:55 This is what we're experiencing.

27:56 So this is as real as it can get.

27:59 This is what we're experiencing.

28:00 But it's coming from this informationational substrate

28:03 that has no space and no time.

28:05 So it's bigger than space and time.

28:07 And it builds space and time and the things that happen in space and time.

28:10 And so if you when when you talk

28:13 with non-speakers about how they're getting their information,

28:17 they sometimes have opinions.

28:19 Who knows if they're correct?

28:21 But the feeling you get is that nothing is off limits.

28:23 It's like the information is all there and they're

28:26 just picking it up as intention guides them.

28:32 Right?

28:32 And that's the same way when I work with remote viewers and in fact when

28:35 I do remote viewing that remote viewers

28:38 and myself experience getting that information which is just

28:42 the intention guides you and then the information

28:45 it comes to you even though it's a jumbled

28:47 mass of information that's that's like way too

28:49 big for you to navigate at all consciously.

28:54 All right.

28:54 I want to come back to remote viewing in one second,

28:56 but I don't want to lose the point you made right

28:58 before that because I got a lot of questions on remote viewing.

29:01 But when you're talking about where we're at now with like the zeros and ones

29:05 and the bits and we have to pick it up because we don't have the ability,

29:09 you know, to be able to actually know everyone's motivations at all times.

29:13 [sighs] This is one of those like meaning of life things I always

29:16 think about in the sense that I like most normal people hate evil.

29:23 I I think it I think it's bad.

29:25 A world without evil would be a lot better.

29:27 Right.

29:28 Yet in reality, I wouldn't know how

29:33 amazing a beautiful 85° sunny day feels like.

29:37 Yes.

29:37 If I didn't know what a 4 degree with a minus15 degree wind chill,

29:43 this is hitting close to home right now day felt

29:46 like outside when I'm walking right on the Hudson River.

29:49 Same thing with good and evil.

29:51 And that is not an argument to say therefore we must have evil in the world.

29:54 Let's get a bunch of Epsteines and stuff like that.

29:56 I'm not saying that.

29:57 But I'm saying the fact that the world has these awful events,

30:01 but then these remarkable triumphs.

30:03 Yeah.

30:04 The triumphs don't happen without the awful events.

30:07 It's not to say, "Hey, I'm happy that happens, but it's like

30:10 what would life be if you didn't have that?" And so I'm what

30:13 I'm bringing that back to is if life were we knew all the answers

30:17 to the test before we ever even had it and there was no human discernment

30:21 or ability to problem solve or think

30:23 things out because it's already automated for us.

30:26 Then what the[ __] is the meaning of it?

30:28 There's no meaning.

30:28 Contrast makes meaning, right?

30:33 Yes.

30:31 Right.

30:32 So that's kind of what we're doing here.

30:36 I think we're making meaning from the ones and zeros.

30:39 And that's a really valid.

30:43 Yes.

30:43 And and part of that meaning is a struggle to I mean as you say for most let's

30:48 just say for most non- sociopaths part of that meaning

30:51 is a struggle to move towards the good.

30:55 And that feels to us there's a there's

30:57 you know all sorts of psychological research

31:00 on this but that feels to us joyful to even just try to move towards the good.

31:06 That's called self-trcendence and it's a powerful motivational state and it

31:11 doesn't require you to be even wellfed or wealthy

31:17 or living in a safe place for you to feel it.

31:19 So in terms of Maslo's hierarchy of needs,

31:22 Maslo just before he died recognized, oh my god,

31:26 the biggest need is self-trcendence and it can

31:27 reach down and pull you up from anywhere.

31:29 You don't have to like build it.

31:31 Can we pull up Maslo's hierarchy so people can see that de?

31:34 Yeah.

31:34 So he ch he kind of changed his opinion.

31:37 So pull that up and it'll show you the top one.

31:38 It'll be self-actualization when you

31:41 this is like the late60s or something like that.

31:43 Yeah.

31:43 See self-actualization is on the top.

31:46 That's always the standard.

31:47 Now now go to um Mossbridge Qanon Wall Street.

31:53 Moss.

31:53 What a what a[ __] search that is.

31:56 Sorry.

31:56 No one ever has read this article [laughter] because

31:58 I I I named it by this horrible way.

32:00 Yeah.

32:01 Scroll down and then I made this figure.

32:03 Uh, do you have to be a medium member?

32:05 Oh, did I make it?

32:06 I thought I made it free.

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33:16 Anyway, just before he dies in 1969, he sort of goes, "Wait a minute.

33:21 there's this experience that people need to have

33:23 which is joining something larger working towards the good

33:26 and that's self-trcendence

33:27 and that's self-trcendence okay and he says but it's different than the other

33:30 ones you don't have to like feel safe to be like generally

33:33 he says if you want to get self-actualized you have to feel safe

33:36 first you have to have your basic needs met your relational needs met

33:39 with self-trcendence it acts differently it can kind of reach you up reach

33:42 and pull you up from anywhere and the amazing thing is um oh

33:48 there it is on the left do you see I just took that same triangle and then I put

33:52 self-trcendence along it because it behaves differently.

33:56 So if you don't mind, Julia, can you just explain the difference between

33:59 self-actualization and self-trcendence just so we can separate them?

34:03 Yeah.

34:03 The standard thing is to think, okay, I need my physiological needs met.

34:08 I need to have food, water, right?

34:11 And next is I need my safety needs met.

34:14 I need to have like a home or some

34:15 kind of place where I can feel safe sometimes anyway.

34:18 So that then later I could have an experience of love and belonging.

34:22 Right.

34:23 Wow.

34:23 That's third on his I know.

34:24 And then if I have love and belonging then I can

34:27 feel some kind of esteem like maybe I'm okay in the world.

34:30 And then the the peak used to be before

34:32 he realized this was self-actualization which is not only do

34:36 I feel okay but like I'm making a difference

34:38 in the in the world but it's kind of egoic.

34:40 It's a little bit like look how egoic focused on the ego.

34:44 It's a little bit like look how awesome I am.

34:46 I'm the big hero of my life.

34:48 Right?

34:50 Self-trcendence says, um, you know, I'm going to reach down, pull you up,

34:56 and have you experience that you're not the big hero of your life.

34:59 You're like a little piece of this puzzle,

35:00 and you're joining together with other people

35:03 and and and other forces to do something good.

35:06 You serve a greater cause.

35:07 You serve a greater cause.

35:08 And it's not really about you.

35:10 M.

35:10 So like maybe the guys after Pearl

35:14 Harbor suddenly the whole country gets drafted

35:17 into World War II and so many went like thrilled to fight for good versus evil.

35:22 Is that a decent example?

35:24 Yeah.

35:24 So so wars so the military figured this out well before other folks.

35:29 And so wars that are like that where it's like look we're fighting for freedom.

35:33 It's very clear we're fighting for the good, right?

35:36 Um there's so much less PTSD.

35:38 there's so much less struggle because it was the frame of it

35:42 was like we're fighting for the good and there's some sacrifice and I

35:45 don't matter as much as the whole and then other wars where it's

35:48 like well there's weapons of mass

35:50 destru destruction but they actually don't exist oh I never thought about this

35:55 yeah so oh this is wild

35:56 it it ends up causing more PTSD because it's like well we shouldn't

36:00 have done that like that that's not

36:03 about self-trcendence it was this other thing wow Yeah,

36:07 I never thought about that with what guys saw.

36:10 So, I I had a really great honor

36:14 almost a couple years ago now to have a couple World War II guys in here,

36:18 one of whom I actually just got word yesterday just passed away.

36:22 So, rest in peace to Drake Cruiser.

36:24 He was an amazing guy.

36:25 But like these guys saw objectively, you know,

36:29 graphic awful things and yet they both had no PTSD and are able to talk about

36:37 it all these years later as well as old

36:40 men like extremely openly and everything like that.

36:43 And then I'll have a bunch of my tier one guys in here,

36:46 some of whom deal with it very well.

36:48 And these are special forces guys.

36:50 Yeah.

36:50 And genuinely I think don't have any.

36:53 others who do, right?

36:55 And these are guys by and large,

36:57 the ones I've spoken to that were fighting in Iraq and fighting

37:01 in Afghanistan during the global war on terror and this whole thing.

37:04 And I never thought about that angle of like the guilt of guilt's not

37:12 the right word because they're not the ones who make the decisions to go there,

37:14 but the selfquestioning of why are we there in the first place?

37:18 Like my friend Sean Ryan is very public about his own struggles and is also now

37:24 very public about looking back on Iraq

37:27 and being like what the[ __] were we doing?

37:29 Yeah.

37:29 What was that?

37:30 You know I was doing my job but like why was I there?

37:33 Well that and that gets into moral injury.

37:36 Yeah.

37:35 Right.

37:36 Which is so if if you have a framework that's actually true

37:40 and then and this also gets sorry it's too many sentences at once.

37:44 If you have a framework that's actually true and you're going to sacrifice

37:50 and you can believe in the sacrifice and you witness horrible things,

37:53 you can put it in the framework of what's actually true and keep it

37:57 as a self-trcendent experience and you have

37:59 what's called um a narrative of redemption.

38:03 So Don McAdams at Northwestern studies like life satisfaction,

38:07 well-being and narratives and um he talks about narratives of contamination.

38:12 You said Don McAdams was his name.

38:15 Yeah.

38:16 Okay.

38:15 Oh, Dan.

38:16 I'm sorry.

38:16 Dan McAdams.

38:17 Dan McAdams.

38:17 Okay.

38:18 Um, narrative of contamination is, oh,

38:21 this horrible thing happened to me and I'm never going to like I am now spoiled.

38:26 I'm like spoiled food.

38:27 I just have to be thrown in the garbage.

38:29 I'm broken.

38:30 And that that devastates people.

38:33 And then the narrative of redemption is sick.

38:37 The same thing could happen to someone,

38:38 but if they're able to te tell a a narrative of redemption about it,

38:42 like this horrible thing happened to me, you know,

38:44 and then I stood up and I said what was true and then I feel like I survived.

38:51 I'm a survivor now rather than a victim.

38:54 That massive difference in well-being and life satisfaction.

38:58 So, I mean, I I come by this insight honestly myself because

39:04 of my um my background in a family that was really um very academic,

39:13 brilliant, brilliant people.

39:14 Where'd you grow up again?

39:15 Illinois.

39:16 Libertyville, Illinois.

39:16 Okay.

39:17 Yeah.

39:17 Yeah.

39:18 So, you had in in your blood?

39:21 Yeah.

39:21 Well, I mean, yeah, in the household anyway.

39:25 Not really in the blood.

39:26 I mean, my dad's uh father was an engineer

39:30 at the with the Air Force in Puerto Rico,

39:32 and my mom's dad, I mean,

39:36 my mom grew up grew up in a really, really poor family with eight kids.

39:40 And her uh parents both worked at a uranium

39:44 facility in uh Denver during World War II.

39:47 And uh so there's a lot of rad,

39:50 we can get into the radiation contamination story.

39:53 Um do you want to take that tangent for a second?

39:56 It's fascinating.

39:57 Okay.

39:57 Yeah.

39:58 So I I came upon that little bit of knowledge um

40:02 when I was cruising the internet trying to understand my mom's

40:05 family because she doesn't know a lot about she was separated

40:08 from her family when she was about seven with her sister

40:11 and her brother and and they were sent off

40:13 and they didn't know if they were ever going to return

40:15 and they didn't know the people that they were talking

40:16 to and she was like why did this happen to me?

40:18 And um you know when she went back her uh family said

40:23 well she said well why did you guys not tell me what

40:25 was going on or who these people were and and they said

40:28 oh you weren't supposed to remember and they broke out in tears.

40:30 And so like there's this there's a mysterious story about my mom uh

40:36 and her youngest the youngest people in that family

40:39 about what was going on for them.

40:41 Both of her parents working for the federal

40:43 government department of energy uranium plant.

40:45 um she gets a uh full ride scholarship to University of Chicago.

40:54 Um and she calls him up and says, "Well, I I want to go,

40:57 but I can't go because I can't afford the plane or the books or the food,

41:01 so you have to pay for everything." [laughter] And they're like,

41:03 "All right." So, she goes,

41:05 and then she's sort of monitored um in that they're very,

41:10 you know, a little bit, I think,

41:12 a little bit manipulative with her around [clears throat] Uh there's a story

41:17 with her that just sounds like they knew she was coming from this poor family.

41:23 They knew her parents were exposed to uranium

41:25 and they were going to study her I think.

41:28 But she was sent away to if I'm

41:30 understand she's going to University of Chicago which you

41:33 know Oenheimer I mean you know government contractor for

41:38 you know nuclear weapons.

41:40 Okay.

41:40 So um so she's at University of Chicago.

41:44 She meets my dad, whatever.

41:45 My dad's a theoretical physicist, ends up working for Department of Energy.

41:48 I think this is not You could tell a conspiracy theory story about this.

41:52 This could all be coincidence.

41:54 I'm halfway in between and I end up calling it an inspiracy

41:59 inspiracy which is [laughter] which is means that you know what you could go

42:03 in the conspiracy theory direction but if you take the the redemptive narrative

42:10 of becoming inspired by your own strength and your own capacity

42:16 to to manage all the[ __] that goes down in a situation

42:19 like this then you can be And so I don't

42:26 know that I am making it up about any of it.

42:30 So that's sort of why I say look the disclosure comes from within.

42:33 Like what can I tell that's true about me?

42:35 And what's true on me is at least that I talk about in the book

42:38 is um is that I was watched from first grade on because I was,

42:48 you know, I was on all the tests and all the areas I was well beyond

42:56 obviously,

42:56 right?

42:56 Well, I don't know if it's obvious.

42:57 It's very obvious.

42:58 Okay.

42:58 [laughter] But anyway,

42:59 in a second you tell you got a galaxy brain.

43:02 Yeah.

43:02 Well, thank you.

43:03 But see, it's it's probably not mine.

43:05 It's probably like beamed there from theformational substrate.

43:07 You see what I'm saying?

43:09 And so

43:10 if you got those gummies, pal, [laughter] I might need a few.

43:15 So I think they could tell I was accessing information.

43:18 Not that I look at my actually my my head is really small.

43:21 Like if you look at my head, I almost have a pin head.

43:23 [laughter] I It's really small.

43:25 Like your head is bigger than mine.

43:26 My brain is tiny.

43:27 I've seen MRIs of my brain.

43:29 like the the the the little folds

43:32 of my cortex are desperately trying to find some space

43:35 you're maximizing real estate.

43:36 Yeah.

43:36 Well, all I have to say is it's not about the brain.

43:38 Yeah.

43:39 [laughter] It's about the capacity to access this information and and so

43:43 they were testing me for psychic abilities and for um IQ tests.

43:47 I took like 30 IQ tests both in the school and outside of the school.

43:51 Um how'd you do?

43:53 Did okay.

43:53 [laughter] But I I got a 700.

43:57 But the thing is that wasn't the point.

43:59 I I ended up memorizing the like I ended up studying the tests, right?

44:04 Which is what you do if you're bored and you

44:06 keep getting the same test over and over again.

44:08 So I started studying like this is the kind of thing they're interested in.

44:11 They think intelligence is this and we all

44:17 know that intelligence is well beyond that and so

44:22 this or that.

44:22 Can you explain that?

44:23 Oh well, so they think intelligence is is um your capacity to learn quickly,

44:28 to associate, to solve problems,

44:30 um to use particular vocabulary or vocabulary beyond your age

44:34 or or your capacity to know in your environment.

44:38 These things are all related to intelligence.

44:40 There's this thing called fluid intelligence called capital G

44:44 um which people are always trying to maybe it's working memory,

44:46 maybe it's this, maybe it's that.

44:48 People are always trying to pin down what that is.

44:50 Um, but I think it was Marvin Minsky who wrote this wonderful

44:55 book about how there's more than a hundred different kinds of intelligence.

45:00 So this is just one kind

45:01 of intelligence that's very analytical and somewhat synthetic.

45:05 A little bit of putting things together,

45:07 a lot of taking things apart and understanding them and yeah,

45:10 so I have a lot of that.

45:12 But the other kind they're looking at psychic abilities.

45:16 So that's that's like the right hemisphere intelligence.

45:18 That's like

45:19 why do you say that's right hemisphere?

45:22 I say that it's like that's it's two reasons.

45:26 One is there's actual data,

45:27 but two that it's it's street cred is right hemisphere for the following reason.

45:32 Right hemisphere um tends to be low verbal.

45:38 Uh so people who have strokes on left hemisphere like have a hard

45:41 time retaining being able to learn to speak again if they're massive strokes.

45:46 And then when they do learn to speak again,

45:48 it can be difficult and kind of um almost poetic uh like

45:54 emotional poetic maybe doesn't reflect what's actually going on in the room.

45:58 A little bit like what non-speakers sometimes uh

46:02 say a little bit feeling intuitive and beautiful

46:06 but not necessarily reflecting the physical reality

46:08 that's going on right now kind of thing.

46:11 So that feels kind of psychic.

46:14 the the evidence, the scientific evidence is

46:17 there's this guy um um Mor Morris Freriedman.

46:22 Morris Freriedman.

46:23 Yeah, I think so.

46:25 Morris, not Milton Freriedman, the economist.

46:28 No, no, but I think that's why my brain does a little hiccup there.

46:31 So, um he's up at Bayrust.

46:34 So, if you if you Google Morris Freriedman Bay in Canada,

46:39 he's like the chief of neurology there or something.

46:41 Anyway, he did this.

46:43 He noticed that people who had Yeah.

46:47 Yeah.

46:47 Morris Friedman.

46:48 Yeah.

46:48 So, I collaborate with him,

46:49 but sometimes I forget his name because of Milton Freeman.

46:51 There's like there's a little I do that with people.

46:53 Yeah.

46:54 Yeah.

46:54 It's like too close to that one.

46:56 So, um so he ended up noticing that he

47:00 thinks that people who have um left hemisphere frontal strokes,

47:05 so he's in the neurology department, he see people all the time,

47:08 are somehow more intuitive, more psychic.

47:10 So he does this test where he has them people with different types of strokes,

47:16 some right frontal, some left frontal.

47:18 Um he has them try to with their minds move an arrow on a screen

47:21 in a particular direction just with their minds like not with a mouse.

47:27 And the ones who can do it well are the ones who have the left frontal

47:31 wait they can move it like without chance above chance.

47:35 Yeah.

47:36 Right.

47:37 And this is why I think sort of neural link is is kind of beyond the point

47:41 is that what he's showing is that people who

47:43 have this area damaged are able to do this.

47:45 In other words, it suggests that this area around here,

47:48 left frontal orbital area, is involved in actually reducing our capacity

47:55 to use our right hemisphere because

47:56 if you see that there's a lot of inhibition across the hemispheres up there.

48:00 And so, um, it's like a lot of the work

48:04 of being in waking daily consciousness is shutting out that stuff.

48:09 M and so yes it exists these capacities and we are trained

48:15 to shut it out because we got to be here right

48:19 yes I also like that who who wrote

48:21 the book about the hundred different types of intelligence

48:24 Marvin Minty look up Marvin I think it was called society of mind

48:27 I want to read that Marvin Minsky because he talks about

48:30 musical intelligence social intelligence and [clears throat]

48:33 I could see society of mind yeah there you go Marvin Mitzky y

48:37 that's okay so this he wrote this back in 1986, too.

48:40 That sounds so cool because that's something that drives me nuts.

48:42 People

48:43 box intelligence into an A or B, and it's just like,

48:46 hey, can you do this math problem or can't you?

48:48 And it's like, and that's that's the beauty of this job.

48:51 By the way, I talk to people from so many different backgrounds,

48:55 places, fields of work, thought processes, life goal, whatever it might be,

49:01 and they are all on different stratospheres.

49:04 Yeah.

49:04 One guy may be able to do[ __] 10,54* 479 way faster than this guy over here,

49:12 but like this guy from a from an intuition perspective of like

49:16 sitting across from another person can pick up things way faster

49:20 than that guy then Ken.

49:21 It's not like this isn't this like SAT score of life kind of thing.

49:25 There's many different levels to it.

49:27 So like it'd be interesting.

49:29 I I'd love to see how he defines these different say 100 boxes

49:32 or something like that because it's almost like if you were going to score

49:34 someone's intelligence everything is a 0

49:37 to 10 across every single variable and like

49:39 the additive of all of them I guess is someone's intelligence if you will.

49:44 Yeah.

49:45 Or even is it I mean so there's a [laughter] exactly maybe it maybe it isn't.

49:50 Yeah.

49:50 Yeah.

49:50 Yeah, I mean I sort of think

49:51 that the effort to measure intelligence is generally just misguided

49:55 in the first place because of because we have

49:57 this what it what it's not doing is looking

50:00 just like you said we have this cultural [snorts]

50:05 I don't know if it's a bias or what

50:06 we have this story that says um that says

50:14 these things are about intelligence and these things aren't.

50:16 So even if you try to say, "Oh,

50:18 I'm going to be all Marvin Minsky

50:19 and like be inclusive about all these different

50:21 kinds of intelligence." All that ever really fell

50:24 out of that after decades of people saying, "Yeah, that's probably true.

50:27 There's these other kinds of intelligence is the idea of an EQ

50:31 that there's emotional intelligence." That's one of the types of intelligence.

50:34 Like, okay, we have to talk about that.

50:35 That's that's people decided that we should start talking about that.

50:39 And it's just like, oh god, it's just the the the progress is plotting.

50:44 I mean, it's just so[ __] slow.

50:46 It's like, okay, so this brilliant guy comes and says there's all

50:49 these different kinds of intelligence and now maybe we can talk about

50:51 EQ and that'll take 30 years for [laughter] I mean it just

50:54 what like like can we get to the point where we go

50:58 let's stop talking about intelligence and just say there's many different kinds

51:01 of people with many different human natures and we need them all.

51:06 Yes.

51:05 Like we need like look at you.

51:07 I mean I'm looking at your mind and the way your mind works.

51:09 I haven't met you before but it seems

51:11 to me you have this synthetic you can synthesize things.

51:14 You're super intuitive.

51:15 If you have this emotional social thing and you have this desire to learn

51:19 that underlies this sort of this capacity to bring people in and figure

51:22 out where they are in this jigsaw puzzle and then move towards some

51:26 kind of informative perspective taking conversation

51:30 and wow that's a really powerful skill.

51:34 I mean that's what it so that's well but that's the kind

51:36 of skill that it takes to be an excellent politician right or someone

51:40 I don't want to do that to be very clear but okay

51:43 well no one who's who could be an excellent politician does but

51:46 that's a great point [laughter] right

51:49 I knew we were going to get along

51:52 but anyway I I I think that they were they were sort of catching on back

51:59 then and I'm talking when I was in first grade what was that 1976 or 75.

52:04 They were catching on that there were different kinds of intelligences.

52:08 I don't [clears throat] know who they were.

52:09 I was in a public school.

52:11 My parents were not uh told.

52:13 My dad again was working for Department of Energy.

52:16 So like I was an easy target.

52:18 And when I was in seventh grade and explicitly put into a gifted program,

52:22 I think they're coming after you right now again.

52:25 __] Sorry.

52:26 [laughter] Um, what do you think the third

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52:53 It's not a traditional psychedelic.

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53:01 Most of what's on the market isn't actually ammonita.

53:03 They're cheap research chemicals and synthetic

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54:07 By the time I was in that program, they didn't ask for consent at all.

54:11 And uh

54:12 they because they didn't have to at the time or well um I mean they should have.

54:17 We knew about asking for consent then but they didn't.

54:22 And uh my parents didn't know I was

54:24 in that program until I came home and told them.

54:27 And um they were doing all sorts of weird stuff like what?

54:32 Like [sighs and gasps] um well there

54:33 were these weekly meetings with a counselor.

54:35 I was like this perfect student.

54:36 I was like there's no reason why I needed to meet with a counselor.

54:39 I was, you know, I was teaching the other students math and I

54:43 was spending my recess coding and, you know, this is like in the

54:47 good hunting of first grade.

54:49 Yeah.

54:49 I was the janitor.

54:50 [laughter] Sometimes I just go on the board and solve a problem, you know.

54:54 No, I don't know.

54:55 I'm not bragging.

54:56 I'm just saying like I was bored and so I would do the they

54:58 would give me these extra things to do and I'll be like, "Okay, great.

55:01 I don't want to go outside.

55:02 I'll do coding." Um, [laughter] who wants to go outside and get fresh air?

55:07 [gasps] [snorts]

55:08 So, um, so anyway, I saw a counselor

55:11 because they told me I should see a counselor.

55:12 Well, the counselor was the counselor for the entire district.

55:15 It turns out later I discover, um, and what happens is every week on Friday,

55:22 I believe, I go walk down the hall.

55:24 I have in my mind the walk with the lockers

55:26 on the right and the off the central office on the left.

55:29 And then we get to this weird part of the building and I go in this door

55:33 and then I to the first door on the right

55:35 is where I would have my one-on-one sessions.

55:37 As soon as I close that door, I don't remember anything.

55:40 The one-on-one session happens.

55:42 I close the door now.

55:44 I remember, oh, here I am.

55:45 But I remember not remembering what was in the room.

55:47 Like I'm not saying like I'm 57 and I

55:50 can't remember what happened when I was in seventh grade.

55:52 That would be normal.

55:53 I'm saying I remember not remembering and feeling like that was normal.

55:57 Like that was how that worked.

55:59 And then just feeling bad.

56:01 Like dread.

56:02 Both directions of the walk back to class and the walk to the room.

56:07 Dread.

56:07 Yeah.

56:07 Just like dread.

56:07 Like, oh god, I have to go see this person.

56:10 Sometimes I believe it was two people, a man and a woman.

56:12 And sometimes I believe it was one.

56:13 It was a small room.

56:15 Did you ever discuss this with anyone after the fact?

56:19 No, because there's a So,

56:20 this is And [clears throat] I'm starting to get to the point where

56:23 I have to have some water because this is gets me a little shaky.

56:26 take your time.

56:28 Um, yeah.

56:30 And it's funny because I wrote this book

56:31 and I talked to people about it and stuff,

56:34 but it still like brings me to the place.

56:37 So, let's see if I can get to a narrative of redemption here,

56:42 but I'll tell you what happened.

56:43 That was the contamination part.

56:45 Um there's a feeling that you can get if you're

56:50 in this situation where you're being there's abuse of some kind going on.

56:57 [clears throat]

57:00 Um where you kind of catch on that it's a secret.

57:03 I mean certainly basically having your memory removed makes you

57:08 catch on that something secret just happened in that room, right?

57:11 So like I'm and and as a person who you know my parents'

57:16 marriage is kind of a disaster at this point and in seventh grade.

57:21 Yeah.

57:21 I mean actually at that point I was moving out of my house to go

57:24 live with my friend's family because I was like this is this is too bad.

57:29 Um

57:29 you're called to do that.

57:31 Yeah.

57:31 Yeah.

57:31 Like they actually called me up after a week and they're like where are you?

57:34 [laughter]

57:36 Wow.

57:36 Because they figured I was with my best friend.

57:39 Um, so my home life was rough and I the one place I excelled was school, right?

57:49 And that was my whole deal.

57:50 That was my identity.

57:52 And so I wanted sort of the administrators and the teachers to like me, right?

57:59 Because that's what I had going for me.

58:01 So like, okay, I guess I'm going to try to be on board with the perpetrators.

58:07 I didn't think about them then, of course.

58:10 But like that's the psychology of abuse is like I have a choice.

58:14 You you feel like you have, speaking of contrast,

58:16 you feel like you have a choice.

58:18 You can be a victim or you can be a perpetrator.

58:20 Well, I want to be a victim.

58:21 I want to be on top of this.

58:23 I'm going to be on the side of people who know what they're doing.

58:25 And I know I should be quiet about this because we have some kind of project.

58:28 I don't know what the project is.

58:30 Right.

58:30 This sounds am I wrong to say this sounds very similar to the psychology of

58:37 Stockholm

58:37 sexual abuse victims and stuff like that.

58:39 Yeah.

58:39 And there was some of that going on for me.

58:41 So um so it's like how am I going to get over this?

58:46 I'm going to have to take on this as my project too is to victimize me, right?

58:51 I mean the way I'm saying it now is not the way I thought of it.

58:54 Obviously at the time I thought

58:56 I was conscious of almost 99 99% of this I was not conscious of.

59:02 So that was one thing that happened.

59:05 Um another thing that happened was again every week or every other

59:09 week we would that people from outside of the school would come.

59:12 They would be in suits.

59:14 This this is what smacks of some weird

59:18 intelligence community or defense department thing or something.

59:21 They're in suits and we go to the nurse's office and we put on these headphones

59:27 and they call two of us out at a time and they're from this gifted program.

59:30 This only happened during the year to my memory this only

59:33 happened during the gifted program year which was seventh grade.

59:36 The gifted program was called Soore which by the way

59:39 stands for get this students on active research.

59:43 I mean could you not get more creepy?

59:45 Come on.

59:46 Let's just say the thing that we're doing.

59:48 No, actually by the time Well, now after I'm reading all these emails,

59:51 you know, that's apparently how these people think.

59:53 Yeah.

59:53 No, we'll just say it right now.

59:55 We'll just say it.

59:56 Island with underage girls.

59:57 Yeah.

59:57 Somewhere like the old mobsters are reading those emails going,

1:00:00 "God, this is[ __] up.

1:00:02 [laughter] They they didn't learn from us." Yeah.

1:00:05 Serious.

1:00:07 [gasps] So, they would have us come in there and we

1:00:10 would listen to these tones and they would call them hearing tests.

1:00:13 But again, I, you know, I mean, my PhD is in psycho acoustics.

1:00:16 I know what a hearing test is.

1:00:18 And looking back, I can see this was not a hearing test.

1:00:21 In a hearing test, the sound goes up and down

1:00:23 and you're trying to say, "Oh, I hear that.

1:00:25 No, I don't hear that." Right.

1:00:27 Yeah.

1:00:28 Okay.

1:00:27 That's not it.

1:00:28 It was We would always be able to hear it.

1:00:30 It sounded like an old AOL dial up or a fax machine.

1:00:35 This is the part you can remember.

1:00:37 Yeah.

1:00:37 This is the different room.

1:00:39 I can remember what happens in the nurse's office with the hearing tests.

1:00:42 Okay.

1:00:42 So every other week they're asking us how

1:00:44 we feel when we listen to these sounds.

1:00:50 Yeah.

1:00:49 Which is not normal.

1:00:50 So then we go back.

1:00:51 The only other thing that I can remember that was very very weird.

1:00:54 I mean the class itself, the Sora class was pretty fun,

1:00:57 we got to write books or do basically do our own

1:00:59 thing and play with psychic zener cards and stuff of course because

1:01:04 psychic what?

1:01:04 Zenner cards.

1:01:05 these cards.

1:01:06 See, also it was shocking to me when I found out

1:01:08 that other people did not know what this was for a long time,

1:01:11 but they're these um cards.

1:01:13 They look like playing cards, but there's only five different shapes here.

1:01:17 Yeah, you can see them up there.

1:01:18 There's a circle, a cross, wavy lines, a square, and a star.

1:01:22 And so, um they we would they would give them to us.

1:01:27 Our teacher would give they were just around to play with, right?

1:01:29 And so, we'd like, "Oh,

1:01:30 can do you know what the way you play with them is like,

1:01:32 "Hey, I'm looking at one.

1:01:33 Do you know what I'm looking at?" Right.

1:01:35 So, it's, you know, you're playing around with telepathy or you

1:01:38 do pre-cognition like what card am I going to turn over next?

1:01:41 It was just one of the games that we would because we were running wild.

1:01:44 We did whatever we wanted.

1:01:45 How many kids were in this?

1:01:46 Like 10.

1:01:48 Any of your friends or people?

1:01:49 Yeah.

1:01:49 My very best friend, her father also worked uh with the military.

1:01:54 Um

1:01:56 Oh,

1:01:56 most of the people in the room

1:01:57 had relationships to either government or military.

1:02:01 And how what you so

1:02:03 was it first grade when you were first pulled in?

1:02:05 You were saying?

1:02:06 First grade I was that's when I started to be

1:02:08 tracked and they would give me all these tests and I

1:02:11 would get to spend recess teaching other kids and they

1:02:15 would pull me out and just give me special privileges.

1:02:17 Right by seventh grade they explicitly said

1:02:20 you're in you're in sore.

1:02:21 Uh the other thing that rhymes with gate

1:02:25 which came later uh gifted and talented education.

1:02:31 Um there many things rhyme with gate.

1:02:32 So I think this is a predecessor of gate

1:02:34 but anyway um they would give us this weird drink.

1:02:38 It was like pink for us.

1:02:42 And um um you made a movement with your finger.

1:02:47 Does that mean you were thinking about like fluoride?

1:02:50 because they would tell us it was fluoride.

1:02:53 No, I was not.

1:02:54 But that's funny.

1:02:56 Okay.

1:02:55 Cuz I literally did that with my teeth.

1:02:57 Yeah.

1:02:58 Okay.

1:02:58 Sorry.

1:02:58 Little telepathy.

1:02:59 When I talk about [laughter] this stuff is

1:03:00 a little telepathy and it's a little bit like hypervigilance.

1:03:03 Yeah.

1:03:03 Right.

1:03:04 When when did you realize you had a photographic memory?

1:03:07 I don't Do I have a photographic memory?

1:03:09 I think I have a more of an auditory

1:03:10 photog like I remember very much what people say.

1:03:12 Do you have that?

1:03:14 Yeah.

1:03:14 I have an audiovisisual photographic memory.

1:03:16 Yeah.

1:03:16 a little bit of love photographing in the sense when I used to study

1:03:20 if I could put everything I would boil everything down to one card

1:03:23 and then I would memorize the card and then I would know where it

1:03:25 was on the card you know so I guess a little bit of that

1:03:29 but the auditory like if someone says no I never said that I'll be like no

1:03:33 you did at 5:31 on Tuesday well that I feel like that's a you know

1:03:36 you have two X chromosomes that's part of the gift you know what I mean is that

1:03:40 yeah you guys remember things yeah that's true you guys don't

1:03:43 it's like [laughter] I mean I do, but man, there's some really exact things.

1:03:49 I'm like, there's no way I said that.

1:03:51 Well, yeah.

1:03:52 No, turns out

1:03:53 I did.

1:03:53 I'm just saying.

1:03:55 Also, the thing with the I actually did a study when I was

1:03:57 a posttock because all of my uh

1:04:00 women friends who were cognitive neuroscientists with me,

1:04:04 we all noticed that our male partners could not find[ __]

1:04:09 Like they'd always be like they'd go to the refrigerator like,

1:04:11 "Do we have any ketchup?" And we'd be like,

1:04:13 "It's right there.

1:04:14 [laughter] It's there.

1:04:16 So, we had this theory that they can't see,

1:04:18 they can't see beyond something oluded.

1:04:20 So, like what oluded means is like, is there a glass behind this grapefruit?

1:04:24 Like, we had this theory that guys just don't look beyond the first thing.

1:04:28 So, we tested it in this room.

1:04:30 We had men and women uh line up outside of this closet

1:04:33 and we had hidden a bunch of things and we said,

1:04:36 "We're going to time you in finding these things." And some things

1:04:38 were hid behind others and some things were out in the open.

1:04:40 And we saw no difference.

1:04:42 Okay.

1:04:42 I was going to say this sounds like anti-male defamation to me.

1:04:45 It does at first.

1:04:47 Yeah.

1:04:47 You did okay though.

1:04:48 It was a good finish.

1:04:49 Thanks.

1:04:50 [laughter] So, what we what we figured out is

1:04:52 that what they're doing is they're just outsourcing it

1:04:56 to the person the location of stuff in the fridge

1:04:59 to the person who actually put it away.

1:05:02 [snorts] Oh,

1:05:03 until we figure it out.

1:05:04 Is like usually the woman goes shopping still like that's a thing.

1:05:09 I don't know.

1:05:10 My husband and I do it equally generally,

1:05:11 but I'm usually putting things away because I like them

1:05:13 in certain places because I like them in certain places.

1:05:16 I know where they are.

1:05:17 That's right.

1:05:18 So, I think it's just that.

1:05:21 What were we talking about?

1:05:22 Oh, yes.

1:05:22 So, anyway, the pink drink.

1:05:24 Yes.

1:05:24 I don't know what was in that.

1:05:25 It was good.

1:05:26 I didn't even have to get her back on.

1:05:27 [laughter] It was It was viscous.

1:05:30 It was thick.

1:05:30 It was like that.

1:05:31 It was chalky.

1:05:32 Was it good?

1:05:33 Someone recently when I talked about this on a podcast said, "Oh,

1:05:36 you mean like contrast that you would take?" No, I spit it out.

1:05:40 I I tell myself I spit it out.

1:05:42 And I don't know if that's a narrative of redemption because I

1:05:47 consciously and analytically I wouldn't have swallowed it if they told me

1:05:50 it was fluoride because my dad had an obsessivecompulsive disorder about teeth

1:05:54 and he had an obsessivempulsive disorder

1:05:56 around not swallowing toothpaste because of fluoride.

1:05:59 So he had told me don't swallow fluoride.

1:06:02 And so I want to think that I wouldn't have swallowed it.

1:06:06 Do you remember how it tasted?

1:06:07 But I also remember how it tasted.

1:06:09 Yeah.

1:06:09 What did it taste like?

1:06:11 You know, like flavored syrup mixed with chalk.

1:06:14 I mean, it's like bubble gummy.

1:06:16 Yeah.

1:06:16 Well, that would be I remember that.

1:06:19 Like there was like a year when I was little where they're like,

1:06:21 "Make sure you use your fluoride rinse." That's what it was.

1:06:24 Yeah.

1:06:24 Except that wasn't chalky.

1:06:26 So the fluoride rinse that that that's another thing is So this [sighs]

1:06:32 I don't know why they would want you to swallow it if it's fluoride.

1:06:34 That doesn't make sense.

1:06:35 Unless they're trying to poison you, right?

1:06:38 Yeah.

1:06:37 I don't think it's fluoride.

1:06:39 Now, they also gave us these tablets that were apparently fluoride,

1:06:42 but they would have us spit them out.

1:06:44 So,

1:06:45 so anyway, there's shit's going down.

1:06:48 We don't know what it is.

1:06:50 And I go to my mom a year and a half ago when I'm

1:06:52 starting to with I'm starting to just remember this stuff partly because I was

1:06:57 applying for a job with the federal

1:06:59 government that required a security clearance and they

1:07:02 asked for all of my um my my records all of my student records like all the way

1:07:10 all my transcripts and I'm being like you know goody two students.

1:07:14 I'm like I got back to my grade school.

1:07:15 I don't think any [laughter] right I think it like the furthest back anyone go

1:07:19 I think 57 right the furthest back anyone goes is high school so I email

1:07:23 like college would suffice

1:07:24 yes exactly so but I email my grade school and they're

1:07:26 like oh sure we you know it's on microfich or whatever

1:07:29 but we'll go get it they sent it to me

1:07:31 and all the comments from my first through 8th grade are redacted

1:07:37 redacted like blacked out

1:07:40 and that's where you would put the sore stuff I mean so

1:07:43 I know that I'm not insane cuz I called my friend, you know,

1:07:46 Rita, who was also in the program with me, and I said like,

1:07:49 "Were we in the sore program?" Because it's not on my transcript.

1:07:52 She's like, she's like, "What do you mean were we?" Like,

1:07:54 "That's where we met." And and so

1:07:57 so that's gone.

1:07:58 So you saw blacked out

1:08:00 every single page where the where the teachers would write things and I

1:08:03 know that I'm not insane because at least my mom kept first grade.

1:08:08 And so I can see the first grade transcript without

1:08:11 the reductions and I can see the one with the redactions.

1:08:13 What did the one with without redaction say that was interesting?

1:08:17 Oh, just like, oh, she's reading at the fifth grade level.

1:08:19 Blah blah blah.

1:08:20 She's amazing.

1:08:21 We love her.

1:08:22 Maybe she should be more bold.

1:08:23 But obviously I I lived into that one.

1:08:25 Yeah, you definitely did.

1:08:26 But [laughter] but there's there's that's

1:08:30 the pre years before you were in Soore.

1:08:34 So I guess they're like redacting the tracking that would have happened to be

1:08:38 like this one's qualified once you track them one through five or one through

1:08:42 maybe.

1:08:42 I mean like I I I I asked her, I said,

1:08:44 "Why are these redacted?" She said, "That's just how we have them.

1:08:46 I don't know why." I'm like, "But I'm me." Like,

1:08:49 "I should be able to see my own records, right?"

1:08:52 Crazy.

1:08:52 So anyway, that started getting me interested and and I

1:08:55 called my mom and I said, "You know,

1:08:58 remember that SOAR program I was in in seventh

1:09:01 grade?" And she without saying another thing,

1:09:03 you know, she's in her 80s, she's still very sharp.

1:09:05 She goes, "Oh yeah, they were studying you." And I go, "Who?" Gee, thanks.

1:09:10 [laughter] I go, "Who?" And she goes, "I don't know.

1:09:13 CIA.

1:09:13 I don't know." But she just said CIA because everyone thinks of CIA, right?

1:09:18 There's a lot of other things though, too.

1:09:19 There's so many intelligence agencies.

1:09:21 There's so many defense agencies.

1:09:22 There's like other countries.

1:09:24 There's contractors.

1:09:25 But it could have been CIA.

1:09:26 I don't know.

1:09:27 I think it was some

1:09:30 countries, right?

1:09:31 Or the Soviets coming after you, maybe.

1:09:34 I Who knows?

1:09:35 I don't know.

1:09:35 All I know is like you have to think that the story

1:09:40 that we constantly fall back on but oh CIA was

1:09:44 doing this or the Air Force was doing this like I

1:09:50 don't know it seems to me not a full enough story.

1:09:56 I agree.

1:09:57 I feel like it's very one-dimensional and like straight to the point sometimes.

1:10:02 And these are places that you're when you think about it,

1:10:04 there's nothing about them that's ever straight to the point.

1:10:07 Yeah.

1:10:07 For better or worse, in a lot of cases for worse.

1:10:09 But yeah.

1:10:11 Yeah.

1:10:10 Yeah.

1:10:10 And it also feels like almost like a scapegoat.

1:10:13 Like CIA is the agency that can't say anything.

1:10:17 Like everyone can blame them for[ __] and then they can't say anything.

1:10:20 So I'm involved with these folks at who used to be some

1:10:23 of them at CIA and some at other intelligence agencies as They still are.

1:10:27 Well, whatever.

1:10:28 You know, I'm good friends with them and maybe they are,

1:10:30 maybe they aren't, but all I know is they're making a movie

1:10:35 called The Power We Hold Women in the Intelligence Community

1:10:38 and what women in the intelligence community have

1:10:40 tried to do to make that a better place.

1:10:43 And when it and it makes me want to talk

1:10:45 with you about the just bringing this up right now, please.

1:10:48 Makes me want to talk with you about how this stuff was handled.

1:10:51 So, if you look at I did some work on the history

1:10:53 of Oh,[ __] I got this all over your table.

1:10:56 That's fine.

1:10:56 It's fine.

1:10:57 I'll I'll I'll grab one.

1:10:58 Yeah.

1:10:58 Yeah.

1:10:59 Okay.

1:10:59 Or do you want to grab one?

1:11:00 Keep going.

1:11:01 I just got it.

1:11:02 You're good.

1:11:02 Rolling my I was just rolling my grapefruit around and then I just started.

1:11:05 I'm the same.

1:11:06 Like if I had had that sitting in front of me,

1:11:08 that would have been unpeeled like 40 minutes ago.

1:11:10 My hands would not I'm good.

1:11:12 Thank you.

1:11:12 My hands would not be able to control themselves.

1:11:14 I know.

1:11:15 Because it's there.

1:11:16 Yeah.

1:11:16 That's why I have like this in front of me.

1:11:18 Yeah.

1:11:18 Yeah.

1:11:18 You [laughter] know, I need something to fidget with, right?

1:11:22 So, thank you.

1:11:23 Um, so the I did a little research on this and so

1:11:30 I I saw that I found out through obituaries of my teacher

1:11:33 in this program and of the counselor that I saw because I remembered

1:11:38 her name and her name was actually on my transcript that wasn't redacted.

1:11:42 It was, you know, she had to help me graduate from 8th

1:11:44 grade and say I was ready to go to high school.

1:11:46 So, thank you.

1:11:47 Um, I saw that.

1:11:52 This is the part where I just my mind starts to fall apart.

1:11:55 Okay.

1:11:56 [sighs and gasps] So,

1:12:03 I saw that um their husbands had both come from Aken, South Carolina.

1:12:09 Both my teachers husband and um the counselor's husband

1:12:15 Fort Bragg.

1:12:16 So there's a bunch there.

1:12:17 So there's a right near that's right near Augusta,

1:12:20 Georgia where the now the Cyber Command is.

1:12:22 And back in the day it was, you know, sort of some kind of equivalent,

1:12:26 but it's also right near where um uh

1:12:29 I think it's called Savannah River National Lab is.

1:12:34 Okay.

1:12:33 And it used to be Dupant and Dupant was initially responsible

1:12:37 for I think plutonium or uranium um processing for World War II.

1:12:43 And then it became Savannah River National Lab when they

1:12:46 took it over and said like we have to do this.

1:12:49 So um and the sore program students on active research I found

1:12:55 a bunch of old newspaper articles actually started back there in that location.

1:13:01 So in the late 70s before I was in it started there before it came to Illinois.

1:13:06 Yeah.

1:13:06 But I pulled this up by the way.

1:13:07 What you were saying is correct.

1:13:08 Dupont played a critical role in the World

1:13:10 War II Manhattan project by designing,

1:13:12 building, and operating major nuclear facilities.

1:13:14 Most notably, most notably, the Hanford Engineer Works in Washington,

1:13:18 which produced plutonium for the Nagasaki bomb.

1:13:20 They also built, it's actually both.

1:13:22 They built the X10 graphite reactor in Oakidge and processed

1:13:25 uranium or at their deep water, New Jersey plant.

1:13:30 Yeah.

1:13:31 Wow.

1:13:31 So, I had read online on Reddit about the SOAR.

1:13:33 I was looking to see are do other people remember the Sora program?

1:13:36 So, I found someone on online who was from Nevada and I'm like,

1:13:40 "Oh, that's a testing site.

1:13:41 That's interesting." So, I'm starting to string this together of like

1:13:44 there's some kind of radio radioactivity link here with this stuff.

1:13:50 Okay.

1:13:50 So, then I have this dream.

1:13:54 So I move from so I have I'm still in this space of like for decades I've been

1:13:59 in this space of I'm gonna skip over a lot

1:14:01 of stuff but basically being shown in various ways that I

1:14:06 was being watched still and studied still you know

1:14:10 as recently as a couple years ago right and so

1:14:16 life events and I don't mean to sound paranoid

1:14:18 like and I don't and actually don't worry about it

1:14:22 yeah but I but I want to say this because when people have this experience,

1:14:25 they can feel grandiose, like I'm just being grandiose,

1:14:29 you know.

1:14:29 I understand what you mean, but that's all right.

1:14:31 But I've got the receipts.

1:14:32 [laughter] Yeah, it's very clear to me.

1:14:34 I believe you that I'm not being grandiose.

1:14:37 Someone was interested in studying me.

1:14:39 And um and they did it in incredibly robust

1:14:44 and um simultaneously hamfisted ways unless they wanted me to know

1:14:50 in which case they did it in elegant ways

1:14:52 because I knew and they they also did it interestingly.

1:14:55 Um, so I moved across the country.

1:14:59 I'm still in this state of, oh,

1:15:00 I have to hold on to this since I was in seventh grade.

1:15:04 I had to hold on to this like, okay,

1:15:06 I have to be on the right side of this, you know,

1:15:08 we got to hold our secrets and, you know, without awareness that I was still

1:15:15 making this victim or perpetrator choice, right?

1:15:20 Mhm.

1:15:21 And then I have this dream and I moved.

1:15:27 So I moved from California.

1:15:29 I don't know why really I moved from California to DC.

1:15:31 I can't really explain it to people.

1:15:33 I just like I have to go do this thing.

1:15:34 When was this again?

1:15:35 This was uh fall of 2023.

1:15:40 Okay.

1:15:39 So November 2023.

1:15:40 So December 2023.

1:15:41 I'm only, you know, in the DC area, Northern Virginia.

1:15:44 I'm in um for a month and I have

1:15:46 this dream that this so little sorry preamble to the dream.

1:15:53 Lots of preamles.

1:15:54 I apologize.

1:15:55 I love preamble.

1:15:56 Okay, you're not going to apolog.

1:15:57 You're doing great.

1:15:58 This is I'm I'm thoroughly fascinated.

1:16:00 Okay, good.

1:16:01 Good.

1:16:01 [laughter] Because both fascinating and horrifying.

1:16:05 Yeah, Dave had to leave the room.

1:16:06 He was crying.

1:16:08 [laughter]

1:16:11 [gasps] Um, yeah.

1:16:12 So, I I you know, I I've studied psychic abilities enough and had

1:16:18 my capacities studied enough to know that I have some decent psychic capacities.

1:16:23 Um, one of them is precognition and one of them is telepathy.

1:16:26 Can you explain precognition to people?

1:16:28 You started to explain it with the cards earlier, but just so people

1:16:31 Yeah, sure.

1:16:32 Precognition is using means other than the usual

1:16:35 ones to predict future events that shouldn't be predictable.

1:16:38 So, the usual ones are like, "I hear thunder.

1:16:41 Maybe it will rain." Right.

1:16:42 Right.

1:16:43 Or, "My mom told me she'd call.

1:16:45 I bet she'll call." Right.

1:16:46 These are like the usual means.

1:16:47 These are kind of like inferential or using

1:16:51 unconscious processing of information to make predictions.

1:16:54 This is how we normally make predictions, right?

1:16:56 So, like if I can like look at this phone and go like this and be like,

1:16:59 "Tom Stevens, I don't know who that is.

1:17:01 I made it up.

1:17:02 It's going to call." And then they do.

1:17:04 Would it be cool if the actual Tom Stevens call?

1:17:06 They[ __] [laughter] So that's and you can test

1:17:09 that in the lab and it's not too hard to test and so

1:17:12 I know that my precognitive capacities have been tested and I

1:17:16 know that you know they're above chance and same with telepathy.

1:17:20 So [sighs] um so when I dream things I also know

1:17:25 that I have pre-cognitive dreams that have come true and I've worked with

1:17:31 [sighs] um wonderful guy.

1:17:32 Yes.

1:17:33 I mean this is why I'm interested in this field, right?

1:17:35 I had one of those today.

1:17:36 That's what did you dream?

1:17:37 Tell me more.

1:17:38 I can't talk about it.

1:17:39 No.

1:17:39 Can you?

1:17:39 Yes.

1:17:39 Can't talk about it.

1:17:40 No.

1:17:40 I'm going to eat my grapefruit.

1:17:42 Yeah.

1:17:42 No.

1:17:42 No.

1:17:42 I can't.

1:17:43 I actually can't talk about that.

1:17:45 But I have one today.

1:17:46 Yeah.

1:17:47 No.

1:17:47 It's crazy.

1:17:48 Okay.

1:17:48 Do you already know that it was precognitive?

1:17:50 Did it already come true?

1:17:51 Cuz I literally dreamed it.

1:17:53 You know how like I've had way smarter

1:17:56 people who actually understand this explain this to me.

1:17:58 myself.

1:17:58 If I'm misexplaining this, correct me in the comments,

1:18:00 but when you are going through the stages of sleep,

1:18:04 often times I think it's like once you actually get to REM sleep,

1:18:09 I forget if it's like 4 hours or 5 hours in or something,

1:18:12 the dreams after that you can remember.

1:18:14 Well, but maybe the dreams you have at the beginning

1:18:17 you very quickly forget when you wake up.

1:18:20 I might have messed that up.

1:18:21 But yes,

1:18:22 basically something like that,

1:18:24 like something I experience a lot that's kind of in line with what I've

1:18:27 been explained is that if I wake up to go to the bathroom at 3:30,

1:18:32 I'll like vaguely remember a dream I was having.

1:18:35 And then by the [clears throat] time I walk back to the bed, I've forgotten it.

1:18:38 But then the dream that occurs after that before I wake up at 6:15,

1:18:43 I remember perfectly.

1:18:44 Yeah.

1:18:44 Yeah.

1:18:45 And I Yeah.

1:18:48 I had I had a dream last.

1:18:49 It was very random.

1:18:50 It was like it was a dream I'd never had before,

1:18:52 but I I had a a dream that involved

1:18:54 like multiple different things and then it happened.

1:19:00 Mhm.

1:19:00 Yeah.

1:19:01 So, what that's the exciting definition of a precognitive dream.

1:19:04 So, it has to have multiple independent verifiers and then it has to occur.

1:19:09 Yeah.

1:19:09 So, that's how you know it's precognitive.

1:19:11 So, so I I know from it's very hard to determine if any particular

1:19:15 dream that's precognitive was informed by unconscious

1:19:19 information that you don't know that you're processing.

1:19:21 Like when people dream someone's going to die or something,

1:19:23 but maybe unconsciously you met with them and you saw something that like,

1:19:27 oh, their skin's yellow,

1:19:28 but you don't notice it consciously and they had liver failure.

1:19:30 You know what I mean?

1:19:31 Yeah.

1:19:32 But like is there is there something to deja vu like related

1:19:37 to that as well or is that in a different

1:19:40 I think deja vu and I was just talking with um oh gosh

1:19:45 and I'll bring you back to precognition but sorry about that I had to ask that.

1:19:52 Uh this guy I'm blocking his name.

1:19:55 It's the opposite of Nick Bostonramm.

1:19:58 Oh Boston's so interesting.

1:19:59 Isn't he interesting?

1:20:01 also like pretty dark.

1:20:03 Oh, very very When I read Super Intelligence,

1:20:05 the way I read that book was like it was

1:20:07 one chapter at a time and I'd like get up, shut the book.

1:20:11 Yeah.

1:20:11 Like I'd like get up like this.

1:20:14 Be like,

1:20:18 whoa.

1:20:18 All right.

1:20:18 Like it wasn't enjoyable, but I'm glad I read it.

1:20:21 You know what I mean?

1:20:22 Yeah.

1:20:22 And then you hear him talk and he's like,

1:20:24 "So if you take the paper clip and the paper clip goes this way out,

1:20:28 but then it goes that way out, the AI will tell you that it has

1:20:31 eaten you alive." And you're just [laughter] like,

1:20:34 "You are way too calm about this, my friend.

1:20:37 That's very uh it's an interesting world.

1:20:41 We don't have to create that world, but that world is um one possibility." Yes.

1:20:47 You know, yes, I vote I vote against it.

1:20:49 I vote against it, too,

1:20:51 for the record.

1:20:52 So no, but there there's if you think of the we'll

1:20:56 get we'll get back to deja vu and precognition.

1:20:58 If you think of the brain and one of its main jobs

1:21:01 is to put events in time like a story that makes sense.

1:21:05 I mean so actually you can show through different illusions

1:21:09 and stuff that the brain is taking information from all

1:21:13 the different sensory systems and then internal information and it's

1:21:16 putting them together in a story that makes sense.

1:21:18 And if this particular stimulus takes longer to process,

1:21:21 it's going to hold on to that and make sure

1:21:23 it's inserted into the right place to make a coherent story.

1:21:27 Yes.

1:21:29 So if you mess up on that as the brain, you get deja vu.

1:21:32 Or you could get precognition, right?

1:21:36 If you mess up on it, that's if you mess up on telling the story the right way.

1:21:39 Okay.

1:21:39 In other words, if if if there's an informationational substrate that has

1:21:42 all that information without space and time and your brain messes up,

1:21:49 doesn't grab the right things, you could be grabbing something from the future.

1:21:53 Bless you.

1:21:54 Or you could be grabbing something that you

1:21:56 already grabbed like the deja vu thing.

1:22:01 Okay.

1:22:01 Put a pin in that.

1:22:03 That's some wild stuff.

1:22:05 So, you were talking about you dream in December 2023.

1:22:09 knew I had worked before with um a guy,

1:22:12 wonderful guy named Joel Mullen who used to be in the secret service

1:22:15 and then he was on the joint uh anti-terrorism task force in San Diego

1:22:21 because I had this dream about a bridge in San Diego and I had already had

1:22:24 a dream about a couple other events or dreams

1:22:28 about a couple other events that had come true.

1:22:29 So I got I I told myself, look,

1:22:32 I'm going to tell someone from here on out if I have one of these dreams,

1:22:36 even if I feel foolish.

1:22:38 So, I knew that my dreams were sometimes precognitive.

1:22:42 So, I had this dream that there was a car.

1:22:47 I guess it was a red convertible with the top down.

1:22:50 There was a guy in the car.

1:22:51 He had an FBI badge in the window.

1:22:53 And I was walking and he was cruising alongside of me and I turn around.

1:22:57 I'm like, "Stop following me." Like,

1:23:00 "What the fuck?" And he goes, "Uh, you know, I just want you to know, uh,

1:23:06 we we'd like that you're spunky, but call the office.

1:23:10 Call the office."

1:23:11 And I, yeah, right.

1:23:12 And that's exactly what I said to him.

1:23:13 I was like, "Call the office.

1:23:15 I don't work for you.

1:23:16 Actually don't have a job right now." So like, what?

1:23:20 And I'm pissed at him.

1:23:21 And he goes, "Call the office.

1:23:23 I climb onto the hood because in the dream,

1:23:25 like that's what you do when you really want to make an impression on someone.

1:23:27 I climb onto the Yeah.

1:23:29 because I was just like like my hackles were up, you know?

1:23:34 I was changing, I believe,

1:23:35 from this like I'm going to be part of this secret and keep

1:23:39 the secret and be good Julia Brownnoser to like the[ __] you part of like

1:23:44 you guys have to stop[ __] studying me and you got to tell me

1:23:50 what the[ __] is going on or I'm just gonna go talk about it.

1:23:53 So, guess what I did?

1:23:54 So anyway, [laughter] so I climb on top of the car

1:23:58 and I crawl over to him and I say,

1:24:00 "What's the number?" And he gives me this phone

1:24:04 number and I wake up and I write it down.

1:24:08 And so that's the only time I've ever had a phone number in a dream.

1:24:11 And so I immediately go and you know the area code in which I'm staying,

1:24:15 I Google it and there's no phone number like

1:24:17 that in the area code in which I'm staying,

1:24:19 which was the 703 area code.

1:24:22 Then I tried the DC area code and the Bethesda area code just on a hunch.

1:24:27 [sighs] Turns out the same department

1:24:30 of the federal government has that phone number

1:24:33 in the DC and the Bethesda area code but at different times in history.

1:24:37 In the 80s and maybe early 90s it was in DC.

1:24:42 The same phone number gets carried over for the same department to Bethesda

1:24:45 when it moves um in the late 90s and then the odds.

1:24:50 So this is very interesting because the soar program is happening

1:24:54 in the 70s and 80s and then in the 90s and as it

1:24:57 turns in essentially turns into gate the the department is a department

1:25:02 of the US army that studies the effects of radiation on on humans.

1:25:07 So, oh my god, that's what happened.

1:25:09 And then the the first document that shows up

1:25:12 when I actually search for this number on Google

1:25:15 is this national def I think it's called

1:25:18 the defense uh nuclear security agency or something like that.

1:25:21 Their big memo back in the 70s 1978 I believe or no 68 maybe it's in my book.

1:25:27 I I have better journalism practices in my book and [laughter] and uh

1:25:33 reserving the backup plan for the Julian Dory podcast.

1:25:36 I got it.

1:25:37 [laughter and gasps] Sorry.

1:25:38 Um, and it just says like we have to start studying

1:25:42 the effects of radiation on humans and it underscores we can't use animals.

1:25:47 We have to use humans because this is a human problem.

1:25:51 I'm fascinated by this.

1:25:52 I don't know if the drink that we got I immediately think back to the drink.

1:25:58 Yeah.

1:25:57 And these radiation burns that I got when

1:25:59 I was in California within the last 10 years.

1:26:03 I immediately think back to that and I think, oh,

1:26:06 was the drink like iodide to help

1:26:09 uh or iodine to help reduce radiation poisoning

1:26:13 or was it like a little bit of radioactivity to see if it had an impact?

1:26:16 But I know that I would be an interesting person to study because,

1:26:19 you know, my my mother was obviously exposed to radiation.

1:26:24 That's what I wanted to ask you though because now

1:26:25 I'm going back to the initial story you told me.

1:26:28 Your parents worked in this.

1:26:30 Yeah.

1:26:31 You also said something you were you and two of your siblings were sent away.

1:26:35 No, no, that's my mother.

1:26:36 My mother I only have I'm sorry.

1:26:40 Your mother's parents worked with uranium.

1:26:44 Yeah.

1:26:44 First, right?

1:26:45 Your mother and the two siblings are sent away when they do that.

1:26:47 So, they don't have access for six months.

1:26:49 We don't know why.

1:26:51 But then your mom ended up working with uranium herself.

1:26:54 No, my mom ends up being recruited to go

1:26:56 to University of Chicago on a full ride scholarship

1:26:58 and they watch her there

1:26:59 and she ends up studying non-speaking autistic students, but she Okay.

1:27:05 Yeah.

1:27:05 I I was trying to get the story straight,

1:27:06 but the point that I was thinking in my head is actually the same

1:27:10 now that we have it Yeah.

1:27:11 rehashed right there.

1:27:13 She was never exposed to it

1:27:16 and you were never

1:27:17 She was at home.

1:27:18 So she so it's like they the deal is but if she was sent away

1:27:23 they well no she's sent away after this.

1:27:25 So they're a poor family they're living in Denver.

1:27:28 Um all of the people who work at the plant

1:27:30 her father was was actually working with uranium.

1:27:32 Her mother was probably a secretary or something.

1:27:35 Okay.

1:27:35 So her father's probably the chief one who

1:27:37 comes home with uranium dust on his boots.

1:27:39 So as she's growing up before she reaches the age of seven she's exposed.

1:27:44 So then if she's exposed to it just exposed to it.

1:27:47 It's not like her boots then have uranium on it when she has you.

1:27:52 Yeah.

1:27:51 How are you exposed to it?

1:27:53 Just that I think the idea is not that I was exposed to it.

1:27:57 You're the offshoot of it.

1:27:59 If you were going to study the effects of uranium on people,

1:28:01 you would study the next generation.

1:28:05 And then I wonder about the drink.

1:28:07 [snorts] Whoa.

1:28:09 Yeah.

1:28:09 Does that make sense?

1:28:10 Yes.

1:28:11 That's clocking now.

1:28:12 I had to put it together.

1:28:13 As a cognitive neuroscientist and thinking about human exceptional performance,

1:28:16 one of the effects of radiation,

1:28:20 whether it's ionizing radiation like

1:28:22 uranium or plutonium or nonionizing radiation

1:28:24 like EMF that we get from our devices all the time,

1:28:27 one of the effects of radiation might

1:28:29 be extended capacities like psychic abilities, right?

1:28:35 And so I think they were looking for both

1:28:38 positive and negative outcomes of exposure to radiation.

1:28:42 both within a person's lifetime and you know in the womb

1:28:46 right so a woman's eggs are around even when she's a kid

1:28:51 right so if a woman is exposed to radiation as a kid that can

1:28:57 cause mutations in the eggs that later manifest themselves when she has children

1:29:03 that makes sense so you have this dream so I have this dream to tell me to call

1:29:08 the tracks right back to an area to a number that could

1:29:12 correlate with the part of the government that literally studies that stuff.

1:29:16 This is before I was thinking of that.

1:29:18 But once I have that dream and I get the redaction,

1:29:21 I'm like, and the other thing that happened that triggered it,

1:29:24 all this sort of just disclosure, self-disclosure,

1:29:28 is that I applied for this job,

1:29:31 but I was recruited to apply for this job 4 days after I

1:29:35 had sent in a foyer request to ask them about the SOAR program,

1:29:39 the the Air Force about the SOAR program.

1:29:41 So, I got a phone call saying, you know,

1:29:43 this is a job that I had submitted my resume for back in like February.

1:29:46 This was November and they're calling me with interest in the job.

1:29:50 Then then the Foye people, this is I

1:29:54 someone goes like, "Jim, we got one.

1:29:55 All right, get her in."

1:29:56 So, I get her

1:29:58 I got an email from the Foye people after

1:30:00 I got the call from the recruiter and I said,

1:30:02 "Oh, that sounds like a cool job.

1:30:03 I think I'll apply for it." The FOYA people say, you know,

1:30:07 if you really want to know about the SOAR program essentially,

1:30:11 I'm paraphrasing, you you have to know exactly

1:30:13 what uh program in the Air Force ran it.

1:30:16 And I'm like, I don't know that, but I also had

1:30:18 the feeling like that was a pretty quick turnaround for FOYA,

1:30:22 and maybe they don't want me to have an outstanding foyer request.

1:30:24 So, I'm going to close this because I'm interested in this job because

1:30:27 I'm still in that place of like I'm going to do the thing.

1:30:30 So, I I say, "Okay, drop it.

1:30:34 drop the foyer request.

1:30:36 Three minutes later, I get a call from the recruiter.

1:30:38 Oh, great.

1:30:39 You know, you passed to the next level.

1:30:40 It's time to do the cognitive testing.

1:30:45 Three minutes.

1:30:45 And I know that because I I have a journal

1:30:47 where I write things that are interesting that happen.

1:30:49 I bet you do.

1:30:50 Yeah, [laughter]

1:30:52 I I could have guessed that one.

1:30:54 Yeah.

1:30:54 [gasps and sighs]

1:30:55 This is not long ago either.

1:30:57 So, this is a couple years ago.

1:30:59 Fall of 2024.

1:31:00 Yeah.

1:31:00 Yeah.

1:31:00 Less than that.

1:31:01 Yeah.

1:31:02 So, this kind of stuff.

1:31:04 But finally, I'm in this state where I'm like, "Oh, I get it.

1:31:07 Um, I just have to say what's true for me and what I experienced."

1:31:14 Yeah.

1:31:13 And I don't have to explain, you know,

1:31:16 all that stuff that I'm telling you could just be my own

1:31:18 fabrication about putting things together to try to understand my history.

1:31:21 Fine.

1:31:22 Like, that's I can tell you that's

1:31:23 But you're doing your best to piece it together.

1:31:24 I'm doing my best to piece it together with that.

1:31:26 And this is my experience.

1:31:27 All right.

1:31:28 So this is so interesting because this is years years later too, right?

1:31:32 Like you live a a a whole scientific

1:31:35 life here already in between these things happening, right?

1:31:39 Like you were doing things for a few decades that happens

1:31:43 to be tangentially related to some of the very things you're putting together.

1:31:47 So let's let's go back for a second if you don't mind.

1:31:50 Yeah.

1:31:51 Obviously you go through the SOAR program.

1:31:52 Obviously you're an extremely smart individual.

1:31:55 Some very weird things happen there.

1:31:57 You don't know about that.

1:31:58 You get in touch with that later in a way as we just talked about.

1:32:01 But then what was that?

1:32:04 I was giving you the thumbs up on your summary.

1:32:06 Is excellent.

1:32:07 I thought you were giving me a Oh, wait a minute.

1:32:09 Sorry.

1:32:10 So, so then you end up going to college.

1:32:13 I guess the first question would be at what point did you

1:32:16 really hone in on even just like I'm very interested in science.

1:32:21 I'm going to go that route even before neuroscience.

1:32:24 you know, uh, my dad was a theoretical

1:32:28 physicist and [clears throat] the one time,

1:32:30 so he also had severe severe I mean, he's still alive.

1:32:34 He has severe severe obsessive uh, compulsive disorder,

1:32:37 but it's a little calmed down because he went to therapy, but at the time,

1:32:41 yeah, but at the time he lost all his jobs because he

1:32:44 would like line up his shirt sleeves for like hours every day.

1:32:47 Oh, he had it like

1:32:48 really really bad.

1:32:50 But the time when he would do his physics equations and I and when he would be

1:32:56 working on something like he worked on the strategic

1:32:58 defense initiative um like laser nuclear pumped X-ray laser

1:33:03 thing and when he when he would get in that when I would see him in the space

1:33:07 where he was doing his equations and working working

1:33:10 on the physics um he was free of that.

1:33:14 He was like his mind moved fluidly.

1:33:17 He wasn't paralyzed.

1:33:18 He was he was free.

1:33:20 It was like watching a musician jam, right?

1:33:23 And so I really took note of that.

1:33:26 Like here's my father who I know is is debilitated.

1:33:29 I mean, I see him most of his life.

1:33:31 I know he's just he's frozen, you know, a lot.

1:33:35 And yet there's this one thing that frees him.

1:33:37 And so I could be with him in that because my mind worked in that way, too.

1:33:40 So I could say, you know, dad,

1:33:42 let's let's talk about how the light is going through these, you know,

1:33:46 old farmhouse windows and how it's bent.

1:33:48 D.

1:33:49 It was a way to connect with him.

1:33:51 Mh.

1:33:52 And then I noticed in myself that I was learning him like,

1:33:57 you know, it he he I mean,

1:34:00 it's kind of amazing because his obsessivempulsive disorder

1:34:04 led him to abuse uh my sister and myself

1:34:07 because he thought there was something wrong

1:34:09 with our mouths and he was going to fix it.

1:34:12 Uh so so sometimes with obsessivempulsive disorder,

1:34:14 it's all about the person's own body and he did have that too.

1:34:17 He thought there was something wrong with his body.

1:34:19 You know the the story of obsessivempulsive disorder is there's something wrong

1:34:22 and I'm going to do this thing this ritual to fix it.

1:34:25 Well, one of his rituals was about flossing our teeth.

1:34:28 And he would floss our teeth for 45 minutes to 90

1:34:31 minutes a night from the ages of 3 to 10.

1:34:34 Like you just like bleeding gums.

1:34:36 It's Yeah.

1:34:37 Pretty bad.

1:34:38 And so um my 45 to 90 minutes.

1:34:42 I know that I'm not making that up because he tape recorded it.

1:34:51 [laughter] I know, right?

1:34:51 So, it's like because he's pretty crazy.

1:34:53 You were laughing.

1:34:54 I'm laughing because it's so it's so crazy.

1:34:56 Have you seen the tapes?

1:34:57 I listened to them.

1:34:58 He didn't videotape them.

1:34:59 I listened when I was when I turned 25.

1:35:02 I started I found this old tape.

1:35:04 It was a 90minute tape and by the end of the 90 minutes,

1:35:08 he wasn't done with flossing my teeth.

1:35:11 Do you think?

1:35:12 But what I heard on it was really important.

1:35:14 me going, "Daddy, you've already flossed that tooth." In other words,

1:35:20 I fought back with him.

1:35:22 And he would keep going.

1:35:23 And he would keep going, but I would still fight back.

1:35:26 Daddy, stop it.

1:35:27 You've already done that.

1:35:28 And so that was really powerful.

1:35:31 And that's my that's where I get my narrative

1:35:34 of redemption is I fought back even though he didn't stop.

1:35:39 Like Like that was just a random night.

1:35:41 One of many, right?

1:35:43 So, do you feel like that was all right,

1:35:45 this is a little different than any type of like

1:35:49 abuse I've I've I've heard of before with the variables.

1:35:51 Do you think that that was purely his disorder doing what he

1:35:57 thought he was supposed to do versus like getting a rush out of

1:36:02 sub power over you?

1:36:04 No, I wasn't even going there, but sure, go there if you want.

1:36:06 I was saying just in general having like some sort of power over you.

1:36:10 Um, I think it's the OCD.

1:36:12 It was so severe.

1:36:15 Yeah.

1:36:14 I don't know what was done to him.

1:36:17 Something must have been done to him.

1:36:19 Um, but

1:36:21 would he do this kind of stuff to your mom?

1:36:23 Like not the same thing.

1:36:24 But no,

1:36:26 he didn't he didn't have any.

1:36:27 No, he was he revered my mother and I got off actually easier than my sister

1:36:32 because I looked like my mother and also that's why I was able to say to him,

1:36:36 "Stop doing this." and he would laugh because not because he's evil.

1:36:41 Well, my dad is like actually if you if you know him,

1:36:43 he's like one of the sweetest men.

1:36:44 And when I talked to him, I brought him into therapy with me.

1:36:46 This was kind of most people don't get to do this, but I brought

1:36:48 him into therapy with me and I told him about how much it hurt

1:36:52 me that he wasn't able to control his OCD and that that really like

1:36:57 I felt like I couldn't trust my father because he would like it was crazym.

1:37:01 Did he know that he had done this?

1:37:03 Yes.

1:37:03 And he just like he was aware that it was 45 to 90 minutes.

1:37:07 Yeah.

1:37:07 And he broke into tears and he just was like I was weak.

1:37:10 I didn't know how to control my mind

1:37:12 and my mind decided there was something wrong with your mouth.

1:37:16 [snorts] And so this it made me fascinated and with again

1:37:22 the human mind and that's where I took my my love of science

1:37:25 and my connection with my father into something that like [snorts] what is

1:37:29 the deal with the mind that it can get so warped this way?

1:37:32 I mean, yeah.

1:37:32 And I think there was a little sexual component in the sense that how

1:37:36 can there not be because he's like holding me down on my bed.

1:37:39 He's not flossing my teeth, standing up.

1:37:40 So, like that feels, you know,

1:37:43 but like my mother's whole family was her when she grew up.

1:37:47 So, it's like, you know, she's downstairs doing dishes thinking,

1:37:51 um, you know, at least he's not her, right?

1:37:56 And so, she knew she knew what he was doing.

1:37:58 She knew what he was doing.

1:38:01 Oh,

1:38:00 right.

1:38:00 And so, and so I talked to her about this and she's like, "Yeah,

1:38:04 I thought at least that that's not happening." And so

1:38:08 it's like every generation gets a little bit better

1:38:12 when this intergeneration

1:38:14 way to look at it.

1:38:14 Thank you.

1:38:15 That's that's my narrative.

1:38:16 Positive way, optimistic way of looking at it.

1:38:19 Yeah.

1:38:19 Well, also I had this experience of this woman in her 50s, 40s, 50s,

1:38:26 sitting in a rocking chair in my mind's eye when I was a kid.

1:38:30 And my dad was doing this on the bed next to the bed.

1:38:33 Um, in my mind's eye,

1:38:35 there's a woman over here and she's saying

1:38:37 these things to me that are really healing.

1:38:40 And she's saying, this is all happening.

1:38:43 I had a gifted imagination, right?

1:38:45 So, in my imagination, she's saying like, "You could be mad at your dad.

1:38:48 He's really messed up."

1:38:49 While it's going on, while it's going on and she's saying like, "You know what?

1:38:52 You're going to thrive someday." Actually, I know it doesn't feel like it,

1:38:55 but like, so she's telling me these things.

1:38:58 You know, I'm making this character tell me these things.

1:39:01 But you did you really see her?

1:39:04 No.

1:39:04 Mind's eye.

1:39:05 Like, like in my imagination, there's this character who's doing this.

1:39:09 And then in my 40s, I go to therapy and I find

1:39:11 out there's a thing called time travel narrative therapy where you take

1:39:16 your current self and you go back to yourself who was having

1:39:18 the trauma and you bring your wisdom and your love and you say,

1:39:22 "Hey, you know, you're going to be okay." And I said, you know, let's try it.

1:39:24 And I tried it and of course I have the experience

1:39:28 of sitting in the chair and saying those things to myself.

1:39:31 And now I can't remember if I actually originally had that experience

1:39:35 as a child or if I'm misremembering it and I don't care.

1:39:42 So it ends up being

1:39:43 which would be perfectly.

1:39:45 Yeah.

1:39:45 Yeah.

1:39:45 Who cares?

1:39:46 Because it was incredibly healing and that's part of why

1:39:49 I created the Institute for Love and Time is

1:39:51 to create technology that can allow people to visit

1:39:53 themselves in time at difficult times and bring that love.

1:39:56 Okay.

1:39:57 before we get to that because I'm you said that right

1:39:58 at the outset and the love and time combination was very fascinating to me.

1:40:04 I want to I want to get to that but I

1:40:05 want to stay on what the specific example for a second.

1:40:08 And thanks by the way for being capable of listening to this because

1:40:14 I haven't really talked about this piece with the abuse with really anyone

1:40:18 really.

1:40:18 I didn't even put it in the book um just because it has felt very private.

1:40:22 But um now every everyone in my family is very open about it and so I

1:40:27 feel really good that I mean my parents

1:40:28 are in their 80s still alive fairly sharp.

1:40:32 Yeah.

1:40:32 And you know

1:40:33 you have a lot of grace about it too.

1:40:35 Well it's like we are all at the mercy of our genes and our brains.

1:40:41 Yeah.

1:40:40 I mean it's shocking.

1:40:43 Yeah.

1:40:43 I I just the idea of the character you create in your mind's eye with the woman.

1:40:50 I keep thinking about that.

1:40:53 This is interesting.

1:40:53 Like you said a second ago,

1:40:55 it could be like when you're going

1:40:57 back with regressive therapy and remembering it.

1:41:00 Maybe you don't realize it,

1:41:02 but you're creating that character now as like someone to almost hold

1:41:07 your hand to relive that and say it's going to be okay.

1:41:10 or that character really existed at the time,

1:41:14 which I I could see it going either way for sure.

1:41:17 Yeah.

1:41:17 And I'm not sure it matters.

1:41:18 But you're not sure it matters.

1:41:20 I'm not sure it matters.

1:41:21 Why Why do you say it?

1:41:22 Because if if if the healing experience is sort of woven through time.

1:41:29 I mean, we always have to have our memories when we

1:41:31 when we try to heal something that happened in the past.

1:41:33 We always have our memories there.

1:41:34 It's sort of woven through time.

1:41:36 Then does it matter where that person or that thing that we imagine showed up,

1:41:43 right?

1:41:41 It's all one big soup, you know?

1:41:44 Okay, I'm going to have a lot of questions on that.

1:41:46 But that's related to the love and time kind of thing, too.

1:41:50 So, I'll wait on that.

1:41:51 But if that character did in fact exist when you

1:41:57 were 3 to 10 while this was going on, you know,

1:42:02 that that's that's a young age for this to start.

1:42:05 It's like when you can first have a memory when you're like three or four.

1:42:08 My first memory is

1:42:10 like Princess Diana's funeral when I was like around that age, right?

1:42:13 It's the first thing I'm like, "Oh,

1:42:15 yeah." And then everything before that I don't really remember.

1:42:17 But like your brain is formulating.

1:42:20 And so if you have this character to kind of get you through

1:42:23 this thing that feels unnatural and you

1:42:24 know is like this should not be happening.

1:42:29 Is that a form of like you learning to disassociate?

1:42:34 I don't know.

1:42:35 It was like if it was it was healthy disassociation.

1:42:38 Healthy disassociation

1:42:39 because the the piece about me saying to my dad, you already did that tooth.

1:42:43 I'm still in my body when I'm like that was

1:42:46 pretty brilliant because I'm not floating and just, you know, whatever.

1:42:50 Right.

1:42:51 I'm saying like this is not okay.

1:42:52 This is not okay.

1:42:54 This is not okay.

1:42:55 It's it's the kind of thing that you need to do to someone.

1:42:59 Did you ever see Silence of the Lambs?

1:43:01 Of course.

1:43:02 Right.

1:43:02 So what she was trying to do in that pit when she says

1:43:05 to this guy who wants to take her skin off like this is my name.

1:43:11 I need this.

1:43:12 You need to refer to me this way if you want me to put the lotion on my skin.

1:43:15 Like she's she's trying to make herself real because he's disassociated

1:43:21 and she has to stay in her body

1:43:22 so that he doesn't disassociate force her to disassociate.

1:43:26 Right?

1:43:26 So, it's this way of learning to work with broken minds.

1:43:33 I wonder though because of how young that how young you were when that started.

1:43:38 And by the way, then the overlap that occurs.

1:43:42 Yeah.

1:43:41 That's also, you know,

1:43:43 smack dab in the middle of that when you're seven is when

1:43:45 you first walk into that room in the school and then don't remember.

1:43:50 Oh, yeah.

1:43:50 So, that I mean, I'm sure I was gifted at dis disassociation.

1:43:55 Yeah.

1:43:55 But I think but I think I also was able to I guess

1:44:02 what I'm saying is disassociation can be

1:44:06 a really powerful and important defense mechanism.

1:44:10 I mean like yes

1:44:12 horrible things are happening disassociation could save your life you know

1:44:17 and staying disassociated um means that it's very difficult to heal

1:44:25 and so when I say things like slowly I start

1:44:27 to over the last decades start to realize like okay I don't

1:44:31 want to keep that secret I don't want to you know

1:44:33 I just I just want to be true to what happened

1:44:36 to me and not play some kind of game with some

1:44:38 unknown force that's or some unknown

1:44:40 people or organization that's monitoring me.

1:44:45 That's a way of getting to healing

1:44:48 with a dissociation which has had to be true forever.

1:44:51 I mean, so I think I think you're right in a certain sense and also all

1:44:56 of creativity can be seen as a disassociation

1:45:01 in that way just like I imagined her.

1:45:03 Like it's a creative act to imagine her, right?

1:45:07 It's a creative act to be a comedian.

1:45:10 It's a creative act to to do what you're doing, right?

1:45:14 Psycho psychologists, there's another one of those words, psychologists.

1:45:19 Psychology or psychologists tend to see or actually more like psychoanalysts,

1:45:26 folks who are Freudian.

1:45:27 My my lesbian parents were both therapists and one was a psychoanalyst.

1:45:31 Your lesbian parents?

1:45:31 Well, my mom uh divorced my dad around when I was around 10,

1:45:35 and that's why that stopped with the flossing.

1:45:37 Um

1:45:38 Oh, the divorce stopped it.

1:45:40 Yeah.

1:45:41 Yeah.

1:45:41 Cuz I wasn't living with my dad then.

1:45:43 Okay.

1:45:43 Yeah.

1:45:43 And then your mom married a woman.

1:45:45 Yes.

1:45:46 And so my stepmom Karen was a psychoanalyst in Chicago.

1:45:51 One of the first psychoanalysts was

1:45:52 allowed to become a psychoanalyst even though

1:45:54 she's gay because in the psychoanalytic tradition being gay is like you're sick.

1:45:59 Like it's considered sick.

1:46:01 And so, but they let her because she was good, I guess.

1:46:04 [laughter]

1:46:05 Like, you're talented.

1:46:06 We need you.

1:46:07 So, that happened.

1:46:08 Um, but anyway, she she would say that um the psychoanalyt analytic view

1:46:17 or the Freudian view of creativity was

1:46:20 pretty negative almost like, oh, it's a defense.

1:46:22 Anything that's not like I am here and you are there

1:46:24 and we're in the world and you know, is a defense.

1:46:28 And so I don't necessar I don't necessarily believe in that, but I

1:46:32 think a lot of those ideas have leaked into our psychology.

1:46:35 I would call them all people attempting to have a narrative of redemption.

1:46:41 All of it.

1:46:42 You know what?

1:46:43 I actually think that's a great way to put it cuz any fellow creatives I

1:46:48 know in in a variety a wide variety

1:46:53 of many different ways have experienced difficult things.

1:46:57 Yeah.

1:46:57 In their life.

1:46:58 you know, if you want to just put

1:47:01 under one term different types of traumas or whatever,

1:47:04 but I I can't think like I have a lot

1:47:07 of friends across a bunch of different spectrums and like all

1:47:11 my friends who are not creative types sometimes have a very

1:47:17 difficult time understanding how I express myself when I'm talking with them.

1:47:21 And also, and this isn't a shot at them at all,

1:47:25 at least from what I know about them,

1:47:26 and I certainly don't know everything,

1:47:28 have mostly had like very good lives and, you know, less going on.

1:47:34 Doesn't mean that that's the case.

1:47:35 We all know people hold some things in and whatever,

1:47:37 but whereas like when I talk with my really creative friends,

1:47:41 a lot of them are pretty open about like,

1:47:43 well, this happened to me or when I was 10,

1:47:45 this kind of thing happened to me or I lost both my parents when I was seven.

1:47:48 Stuff like this or, you know, some sort of awful divorce.

1:47:51 My dad beat my mom and then I would watch

1:47:54 it and then he they they divorced when I was seven.

1:47:57 I hear this a lot.

1:47:59 Yeah.

1:47:59 And there's there's always been something

1:48:00 to that because then maybe it affects their vibe.

1:48:03 Maybe sometimes some of them are prone to depression

1:48:05 and things like that, but then they make these beautiful things.

1:48:09 Yeah.

1:48:09 Like beautiful things,

1:48:10 whether it's a song or a picture or [snorts] you name it, you know.

1:48:15 That's right.

1:48:16 Yeah.

1:48:16 Yeah.

1:48:18 It's um it's the standard deal for creatives.

1:48:22 It's the standard story.

1:48:24 There's data on that, you know.

1:48:27 Yeah.

1:48:29 Yeah.

1:48:28 [sighs and gasps] That's that's uh your perspective on your own

1:48:34 childhood though and like getting in touch with it

1:48:36 and the upbeat nature and self not only self-aware

1:48:42 but also like I don't know the word I'm looking for.

1:48:46 I don't know if this is what I mean,

1:48:48 but like self- forgiving perspective of like being

1:48:52 young and naive and you know there's things happening

1:48:56 to you that you really didn't have power over

1:48:58 because people can blame themselves for that later obviously.

1:49:02 Yeah.

1:49:01 Like it's it it's pretty amazing how you've put that all

1:49:04 together and have seemed to have like a great piece with it.

1:49:08 I do know but I I also think it took I mean I

1:49:12 was in therapy for you know at least a decade and a half.

1:49:15 Yeah.

1:49:15 And um a bunch of meditation, a lot of reading, singing, learning to sing, sing,

1:49:23 not professionally,

1:49:24 but just like um I I worked with a wonderful uh vocal coach uh Heather Arani.

1:49:31 She does this fantastic vocal coach who's who's experienced in in trauma,

1:49:37 who has a actually degree in working with trauma.

1:49:39 And the first day I walk in and she's like,

1:49:43 I'm like, I don't I don't want to become a professional singer.

1:49:45 I just want to be able to use my voice in a way that's really authentic,

1:49:49 you know, and I want to in my profession, I want to tell people who I am.

1:49:53 That's that's what I want.

1:49:54 So, this was about oh gosh, I think this was about 12 years ago.

1:50:00 So, I walk into her studio and she's like, great.

1:50:02 So, I'm going to be in the next room and just sing something.

1:50:06 And I'm like, I'm shy.

1:50:07 Whatever.

1:50:07 She's like, sing Happy Birthday.

1:50:08 I just need to hear your voice just like so

1:50:11 I sing happy birthday and I come in and she goes,

1:50:14 you know, yes, so I can work with you.

1:50:16 I like your voice.

1:50:18 Um but um are you open to talking about any childhood trauma

1:50:23 you might have had around your mouth when you were a kid?

1:50:26 And I said [laughter] [sighs] [gasps] and I said um and at that point

1:50:32 I wasn't as aware and I said uh you know I

1:50:36 had some childhood stuff about my mouth but like I went to therapy

1:50:39 for a long time and that's done like I'm I'm done with that.

1:50:43 Like I I worked that out and there was no sensory leakage going on here.

1:50:46 There was no sensory leakage and she could hear

1:50:48 it in the way I was holding my jaw.

1:50:50 she could hear it.

1:50:51 [gasps] And uh and then it took a few

1:50:54 more sessions before I finally came in and said,

1:50:56 "Ah, you know, maybe this is it." And I told her about the flossing thing.

1:51:00 Oh yeah, maybe.

1:51:01 [laughter] Oh, I don't know.

1:51:03 She's like, "Oh, that seems kind of traumatic." Yeah, that'll that qualifies.

1:51:07 But I said, you know, but I went to therapy and stuff.

1:51:08 She's like, yeah, but it's in your body.

1:51:10 You know, there's this amazing book, The Body Keeps the Score.

1:51:15 Um and she's like, it's in your body.

1:51:17 And so your mind has come to peace come to terms with it.

1:51:21 You're at peace with that in your mind.

1:51:22 But in your body there it is.

1:51:24 So our body physiologically carries

1:51:26 traumas and manifests it subconsciously effectively.

1:51:31 Right.

1:51:31 So she taught me how to sing.

1:51:35 Yeah.

1:51:35 The body keeps the score.

1:51:36 Yeah.

1:51:37 Really fantastic book.

1:51:39 She taught me how to sing so I could learn how to talk.

1:51:41 So I could use my own voice.

1:51:43 I had I had lowered my voice.

1:51:45 have relatively high pitched voice.

1:51:47 I had lowered my voice because I had been

1:51:50 taught in graduate school when I was getting my PhD.

1:51:53 One time explicitly,

1:51:54 but several times implicitly that I needed to lower

1:51:57 my voice so people would take me seriously.

1:51:59 Yeah.

1:51:59 They told Elizabeth Holmes that too.

1:52:02 Yeah.

1:52:02 It didn't work out too well.

1:52:03 No.

1:52:03 So, I was uh I was using like I'm using

1:52:06 this voice now which is at the bottom of my range.

1:52:10 Um this is normal for me.

1:52:12 This is okay.

1:52:13 is a little bit gritty,

1:52:14 but I was using I was using like a low I was using I was like hurting my voice.

1:52:19 Yeah.

1:52:20 No good.

1:52:21 Yeah.

1:52:22 So, um Yeah.

1:52:24 So, that story of anyone I mean then you know and everyone has had

1:52:29 experiences that they didn't love and then

1:52:31 there's trauma which is different from that.

1:52:33 It's feeling helpless when you're having an experience that's that's bad.

1:52:37 Um and many people have had trauma in our country.

1:52:41 something like 84% of people in our country have had this.

1:52:44 It's ridiculous.

1:52:46 So, a lot of people know what I'm talking about when I

1:52:48 say you find ways to get through it that are short-term solutions.

1:52:53 And you find, if you're lucky, you live long enough to find ways

1:52:56 to get through it that are long-term solutions.

1:52:59 And I've realized that being who I am is the long-term solution.

1:53:05 Yes.

1:53:05 Being true to yourself and letting it hang out and land where it does.

1:53:09 I think that's amazing advice.

1:53:11 I think a lot of people go through life

1:53:15 playing a character and they don't realize it.

1:53:17 You know, I see this all the time and think back to some of my own experiences

1:53:23 before I did what I do now and there

1:53:25 were aspects of that without without realizing it.

1:53:28 You know, you you got to do things to fit in.

1:53:30 Yeah.

1:53:31 Well, and we still do, right?

1:53:32 I mean, so it's like so hard to get away from.

1:53:35 There's this idea of the persona in psychoanalysis, right?

1:53:38 this mask and it's hard to get away from.

1:53:41 And I'm going to I'm going to be with you, Julian Dory,

1:53:44 when I'm on your podcast different than I'm going to be with my best

1:53:47 friend who's talking to me on the phone because we're on a podcast, right?

1:53:52 That's totally reasonable.

1:53:54 At the same time, there's a there's a there's

1:53:56 a strength to having a consistent I thread.

1:54:01 I think of it like events in time in your life are like beads on a string.

1:54:06 And when you pull them together over time and realize that's you the whole time.

1:54:13 Yes.

1:54:12 Then you become the string.

1:54:14 And the events aren't your story.

1:54:16 Your story is this essence that's always there.

1:54:18 And it's it's the events aren't your story.

1:54:20 The events aren't your story.

1:54:21 I mean, you can tell the story and you can say, "Yes,

1:54:23 when I was a kid, you know, my dad did this thing.

1:54:25 His OCD was out of control, etc.

1:54:27 All that is true, but like it's not who I am, right?

1:54:31 Those are things that happened.

1:54:34 And I'm not saying they were great,

1:54:37 but who I am is something much more powerful than that.

1:54:40 Your past does not define you.

1:54:43 Yeah.

1:54:42 Okay.

1:54:42 Yes, I agree with that.

1:54:45 And neither does my future.

1:54:48 What do you mean by that?

1:54:51 [laughter]

1:54:52 Well, so the thing is,

1:54:54 remember when I was talking about your brain could be like

1:54:58 a radio and it's sort of receiving consciousness from a transmitter,

1:55:01 but where is the transmitter?

1:55:02 And then I said when is the transmitter

1:55:05 and you were like we'll come back to that.

1:55:06 So that's now.

1:55:07 So the transmitter could be in the future.

1:55:13 In other words, consciousness could be being transmitted from the future.

1:55:17 We may be being pulled towards our futures

1:55:21 in some kind of intentional way by consciousness.

1:55:24 That's like Julian, you're going to be doing

1:55:27 this podcast because later you're going to be doing this.

1:55:31 Yes, I understand what you mean.

1:55:33 Yeah.

1:55:33 So that also doesn't define me.

1:55:35 None of the things that happen whether past or future are me.

1:55:41 All right, let me start at the base layer here.

1:55:44 How do you define consciousness itself?

1:55:48 How do you know what the base layer is?

1:55:51 The base layer of what we're aware of as a species right now.

1:55:55 Meaning it's there's layers and layers and layers below that that we can't see.

1:55:59 But at least like through your career and all your studies.

1:56:04 What's your best definition of consciousness?

1:56:07 That's really what it is is that question for you

1:56:09 is how do you know what the base layer is?

1:56:12 If you try to answer that question is like a coan, right?

1:56:15 Like as you know about zen coins ko an

1:56:18 I don't think so.

1:56:19 Oh okay.

1:56:19 They're there this like like a Zen master

1:56:22 will go grasshopper I have something to teach

1:56:24 you [laughter] and and they will say um what is the sound of one hand clapping

1:56:29 and then the the student is supposed to go

1:56:31 meditate for like a year and figure out

1:56:32 the answer to that [laughter] and it's supposed

1:56:34 to enlighten them or whatever right that's a coen

1:56:37 so a coen is it sort of wakes you up but also questions everything

1:56:42 so the co-en that you just brought up is I'm going to start at the base

1:56:46 layer so my question is how do you know what How do you know?

1:56:50 How are you using your mind?

1:56:51 This is a Marcus Aurelius point.

1:56:53 How are I saw the Marcus Aurelius thing you have over there.

1:56:56 How do you know using your mind what the base layer of anything is?

1:57:03 You don't.

1:57:04 You only know the base layer based on the in, no pun intended,

1:57:08 based on the information that we as a species have made available

1:57:13 to actually empirically understand which we've

1:57:19 only scratched the surface if that.