The American Revolution & Presidential Scandals With Mr. Beat

0:00 Hey everyone, welcome back to the Ing Good Faith podcast.

0:02 My name is Philip DeFranco and every week I'm talking to people

0:04 I think are the most important and influential people in the world.

0:06 And this week I spoke to Mr.

0:07 Be.

0:08 Right.

0:08 Mr.

0:08 Be is a former social studies teacher turned

0:10 history YouTuber now a fellow at the Robert J.

0:12 Dole Institute of Politics at the University of Kansas.

0:15 And he's also written books such as the Power Bar Supreme Court.

0:17 And today we covered a lot.

0:18 We talked about if Trump is a lame duck,

0:20 if he'll be impeached, how Epstein compares to other presidential scandals.

0:23 And you know, he really just answered all

0:24 my questions I had about the American Revolution.

0:26 And I find that fascinating.

0:27 And also, I think there are a lot of comparisons

0:29 to to things that we see now in certain ways.

0:31 But hey, buckle up and if you enjoy this episode,

0:33 give it five stars on Spotify and Apple or give it a like on YouTube.

0:36 While you're at it, you know,

0:37 leave a comment on what you agreed with, disagreed with what you

0:39 found interesting or who you'd like to see next as a guest.

0:41 So, Matt, I I got to ask the I feel like

0:44 the past month for the first time of Trump 2.0, I know.

0:47 It has felt like maybe closer to I don't want

0:50 to say normal presidency cuz there's so much that's not normal,

0:52 but uh in the sense of does he is he does

0:55 he actually start to feel and is he a lame duck right

0:59 now or is that kind of just what people are telling

1:02 themselves and maybe he's like more powerful and more dangerous than ever?

1:06 Yeah, lame duck is typically a phrase that is applied

1:09 to people who are not reelected um after election day.

1:14 So, just a short window between like November to January, you know,

1:19 when if you lose your re-election uh and you're like,

1:23 "Well, shoot, I have two months here.

1:24 I'm just going to try to do as much crazy

1:26 crap as I want." That's where the phrase comes from.

1:29 Uh, and they used to actually have a longer lame duck period.

1:34 It was to to march for the presidency in particular.

1:37 So, from November to March.

1:38 Um, and that's when you saw all kinds of shenanigans with like presidents were

1:42 trying to like get all their nominations in and there was a bunch of pardons.

1:46 We saw that with Joe Biden actually,

1:47 him pardoning his son Hunter during that lame duck period.

1:51 So when I have heard this though, like this applied to um to Trump,

1:57 but I I just don't know if it really fits

1:59 that well because we still have a long ways to go here.

2:03 Yeah.

2:03 And I think I don't know.

2:04 I think back to it felt like well while well

2:06 while there's probably or there were numerous reasons it felt

2:09 like part of the whole thing was like he was

2:11 like I need to become president so I cannot be prosecuted.

2:15 Uh I need to be in in like the the in control.

2:18 I need to have power.

2:19 Um and I don't know.

2:22 I just I feel like if there's if there was ever a president that it's like

2:26 I'm going to try and do the most that I can and do it without Congress, right?

2:31 because that's that's usually like the such a big aspect of it is like Congress

2:35 kind of is going like well we're not

2:36 going to have to worry about your reelection.

2:39 Um we need to see how you're impacting the party.

2:41 I need to think about me.

2:42 You've got usually right it's like one or two years now.

2:45 I mean we're we're talking about this before

2:47 even the midterms are are are coming around.

2:49 So it's it's such a weird position.

2:50 So I don't know.

2:51 I I've personally not given it a ton of weight because I

2:55 it almost feels it feels in the realm of like when people

2:58 are like I don't see how he's getting out of this one

3:01 and it's like find out next on next on the next week's episode.

3:05 It's like okay that's how he got out of it.

3:07 Yeah.

3:07 Because for the most part the Republican

3:09 party still follows everything he does or says.

3:13 I think the Epstein files release was a notable exception to that.

3:18 So that's interesting.

3:20 We could talk more about that if you want,

3:21 but I I think that it's kind of a signal of what's to come,

3:24 but I think we still have a long ways to go.

3:26 I think Trump's going to do a lot more stuff.

3:28 We'll just say, yeah, I I I know when I was thinking of like,

3:32 okay, the the so-called like defection from Trump on Epste,

3:35 and yeah, we're definitely going to dive more into to the Epstein uh situation,

3:39 but when I when I look at that, I mean, even there um I don't know,

3:43 I was having uh a debate and I I could see

3:46 where other people are coming from with like Marjorie Taylor Green.

3:49 I was like, I I do think that it is it was notable.

3:51 Obviously very troubling uh in pretty much every other aspect,

3:57 but I was like there is something to be said

3:59 that she stuck to her guns on the Epstein situation because no,

4:04 you never really see Republicans going against Trump and then

4:08 a year or two later you don't say former uh congressman.

4:12 Um and so I don't know.

4:13 I that that feels singular and yeah, I I feel like you're right.

4:18 I feel like they're going to get in line

4:19 for most everything else at least before the midterms,

4:22 but maybe maybe the polling continues to drop.

4:25 Uh we'll we'll see.

4:26 I feel like more and more people have been talking about,

4:29 you know, we can talk about all the data,

4:30 but I feel like elections show us that it

4:32 doesn't really matter unless people are also like,

4:34 "No, I'm personally feeling it." Um, even if it's just like I hate saying

4:39 their lived experience because it's it's kind of seen

4:41 as such like this a soft uh soft uh

4:45 soft wording for like a a percentage of the populace,

4:48 but it truly is like if it if if you don't feel it,

4:50 then it's probably not real in your head.

4:54 Yeah.

4:54 And I think we do have better data in terms of the election results

4:58 in November that u at the time of recording this is a few weeks ago.

5:03 But I think that's a pretty good indicator

5:05 that I think a lot of Republicans are like, "Okay,

5:07 what are we going to do after Trump's gone here?"

5:10 Like we need to have a a plan for after.

5:15 And I do think someone like Marjgerie Taylor Green is

5:18 probably going to try to run for president in 2028.

5:21 And so she's thinking that she's more running on ideology.

5:26 She's the ideological wing of the Republican party.

5:28 People forget that they do have a distinct ideology.

5:31 Whereas most Republicans are bootlickers of Trump,

5:35 they will just they just want to stay in power.

5:37 You know, they may not believe most of what he says,

5:40 but they just want to say, "Yeah, he's great." So that's the difference.

5:45 I think someone like Lauren Boowbert or Marjgerie Taylor Green or Thomas Massie,

5:50 those are three Republicans who have very strong distinct ideologies

5:54 versus just like the pragmatism of trying to stay in power.

5:58 That's so interesting.

5:59 I' I've I've started hearing more and more people saying that yeah,

6:02 she is eyeing the presidency, but I feel like that's that's impossible, right?

6:07 or I mean that's like I can't I can't imagine that cuz like even

6:11 when when I'm talking to whether it be uh liberals or or leftists or even

6:16 I mean a lot of people that would call themselves centrists it feels like

6:21 there is such a limitation of like okay but there's still all the other stuff.

6:25 Uh maybe maybe the two years the two extra

6:28 years um before you would see someone like really running

6:32 would would I don't know change or may maybe people

6:35 forget you know people forget but I can't see that.

6:39 But also I used to think that uh uh Nome polling

6:43 the way that he uh is for a potential presidential run um

6:47 was shortsighted because I saw so many uh people that consider

6:49 themselves in the middle going he's not he's not really about it.

6:52 He's a liar.

6:53 He's uh and then I what what what I've seen is not people

6:56 saying I and this is so anecdotal not saying that he isn't those things

7:01 but going that's fine like like as long as he's not for like

7:07 the really bad stuff I'm fine

7:09 with that because apparently that's where politics are.

7:11 Another great example of this is uh the different uh perception of George W.

7:17 Bush uh now compared to 20 years ago.

7:20 I mean, we're old enough to remember

7:21 the Iraq war being extremely controversial and George W.

7:24 Bush being an extremely hated president.

7:26 Very controversial.

7:28 But now it seems that many Democrats are like, "Well, maybe George W.

7:31 Bush wasn't so bad when we compare him to the uh

7:34 chaotic situation we're in now." So, it's all relative.

7:38 I think that the same thing is I think

7:40 that the main thing is a lot of Democrats just think

7:44 whoever we can throw at um the Republicans

7:46 to defeat them to end this nightmare we will do.

7:50 If that's Newsome then we'll just suck it

7:51 up and because that's what the Republicans did.

7:54 You know a lot of Republicans did not like Trump

7:56 even after he was elected his in his first term.

7:58 Many there was the whole never Trumper

8:01 movement that continued into his first term.

8:03 Um they even most of them finally came around.

8:06 They said, "Okay, fine.

8:07 We'll just have to just deal with them and then wait it out." Yeah.

8:13 I uh I don't know.

8:14 I I I could I could see that potentially,

8:16 but it does feel like there's this ever growing wing of the party

8:19 that is calling out Trump that they there and and and probably

8:24 safely so unless I mean because he's not I don't I

8:27 don't think he's genuinely going to run for a a third term.

8:30 I don't think there's there's that political will.

8:32 What's funny is I think like if he had just kind of chilled uh and been like,

8:38 you know what, I'm I'm going to I'm going to keep things semi-regular.

8:42 I'm not going to do super super crazy things.

8:45 I think his polling would be so high that there is a world where they could

8:48 maybe pull off some really really crazy[ __]

8:50 Um that that there might be some political capital.

8:53 That said, I we're talking so far away that I don't have like knock on wood.

8:58 He just can't help himself though.

8:59 He's such a a bad president.

9:02 uh that he can't help himself.

9:03 And I think it will still get get worse.

9:05 Um and I know I said this last time when I we we talked,

9:10 but I think 2026 is going to be even crazier.

9:13 And I think that only after the midterms next year is what I predict.

9:18 We'll see the Republican party look back into the mirror and say,

9:21 "Okay, maybe we I we like some of this populist stuff.

9:25 Uh maybe we can kind of just start to uh ascend JD Vance

9:30 to take his place or they're gonna look for a a way to exit Trumpism.

9:35 If it's Vance, I don't know.

9:38 I mean, yeah.

9:39 Like I I think I think it was a losing

9:40 strategy for them to be like he's just this this weirdo.

9:44 He's he's a very he's a very calculated uh man

9:46 who kind of understands how to to hit certain points,

9:49 but none of it ever outside of a clip, none of it feels real.

9:52 Uh so much of it feels like okay so I

9:55 know that these talking points I'm going to deliver it.

9:56 I'm like almost an act like I'm an actor.

9:58 Uh but okay so on the note of after the midterms

10:02 let's say Democrats they get the majority in the house.

10:04 Do you think we're in this situation where we're looking at another um

10:09 impeachment situation and if so um

10:12 does it actually benefit Democrats this round?

10:16 like almost completely separating the validity of the impeachment trial, right?

10:22 Because there's so many things you could impeach him on.

10:24 I I I that's a really good question because if I

10:28 mean I assume they are probably going to impeach him again,

10:31 you know, just pick whatever you want on the bingo card.

10:33 Um and so once they figure that out,

10:35 I think they're going to pick something that they

10:36 can maybe sway a few Republicans their way.

10:38 Especially, you got to you got to look at what

10:41 happens with the Senate elections in the midterms because it

10:45 could go really better than people realize for the Republicans

10:49 because Republican party is kind of like you were saying earlier,

10:52 if Trump really just had more like his first

10:55 term and he didn't really shake things up too much,

10:58 um I think that his approval rating would be much higher and I

11:01 do think that the Republican party could

11:03 hold on to the Senate surprisingly easy.

11:05 Now, the House was always in question,

11:07 but this is typical for anytime a president's elected, usually two years later,

11:11 the midterms, the uh the opposite major political

11:15 party takes over power in that in in Congress.

11:17 So, but I think the way things are going,

11:20 Republicans are going to lose the Senate or you might

11:24 have a couple Republicans in the Senate who are like

11:27 they're gonna, you know what,

11:28 I will I will go ahead and vote to remove him out of office.

11:32 Just to review how it works, you know,

11:34 impeachment just means you're starting the investigation to see

11:37 if the president actually uh committed the crime.

11:41 The Senate, they are the judges that essentially decide the fate.

11:45 Um, and it's never happened before in American history.

11:48 So it would but I think especially if if the trend keeps going as it is

11:53 where public pressures there like his approval rating

11:56 now I've seen some polls it's below 40%.

12:00 Which is where it was at after January 6th.

12:03 I I do think that there would be momentum to impeach him this time and actually

12:09 force him out of office which JD Vance a lot of people are ready for JD Vance.

12:13 I know he's What does that look like?

12:16 Who the heck knows?

12:17 He is mysterious like you said, but I think many Republicans are just like,

12:21 "Okay, we we're we're done with Trump now.

12:23 Okay, bye-bye." Yeah.

12:25 See, there there's all that talk, but I I just think that there is a portion

12:29 and may you know what there everyone's like such a political mover.

12:32 You never know uh you know where people are going to land.

12:35 But I feel like there's this ever growing branch of uh the Fuentes

12:40 and Tucker Light wing of the party that would just never embrace him.

12:44 um that would in their minds be like no maybe the country

12:48 needs uh a different kind of pain so that they realize they have

12:52 to let us not only in to the tent but uh really

12:56 to maybe take the reigns when I start thinking of like the multiple

12:58 steps of okay what does another impeachment look like it feels like

13:02 that's where Donald Trump thrives is being able to claim victimhood um

13:08 and being able to like play as like the system's coming after

13:11 me even though the epste situation has shown he is the system like

13:16 yeah of course he's he's like where where his own people are like why is

13:19 he doing this why and I don't know and even even seeing all

13:23 the Republicans then switch with him obviously I think there were going

13:27 to be a number that were like hey okay now that the epste

13:30 thing is happening uh and it's coming to a vote we have

13:32 to go this way um but and I I would have been very

13:36 interested to see what that if if he hadn't said yeah vote

13:39 that way like the uh it's almost like the equivalent of Like I mean,

13:43 well, it's different.

13:45 The him telling Mdani it's okay to call him a fascist in front of the cameras.

13:48 I don't know.

13:48 It was so weird.

13:49 Uh so many weird things.

13:50 So, actually, I I do want to I I want to go

13:53 into the the Epstein scandal just because

13:55 of of of your background and expertise.

13:57 I I was interested.

13:59 How do you think that the Epstein scandal compares

14:01 to and we can this can be kind of two answers.

14:04 Uh compares to the Teapot scandal.

14:06 How does it compare to Watergate?

14:09 Oh, Watergate too.

14:10 Yeah.

14:10 I mean, so there have been numerous scandals

14:13 uh in American history revolving around the president.

14:15 Um I think one of the most famous you mentioned

14:18 the Teapot Dome scandal happened during the Warren Harding administration.

14:23 Um his uh interior secretary Albert Fall um

14:28 basically made a lot of money from petroleum reserves.

14:30 So there were kickbacks, there were bribes,

14:33 and it wasn't just uh fall, it was other fall took the fall.

14:38 But uh that's where that I think that where

14:40 that phrase comes from, believe it or not.

14:41 But other members of his cabinet also got in trouble.

14:44 And Harding was known as a corrupt guy himself.

14:48 He knew all kinds of stuff was going I mean,

14:49 he was actively breaking the law during prohibition.

14:52 He was like getting uh alcohol uh snuck into the White

14:57 House so they could have poker parties, you know.

15:00 Uh, so that's that's one aspect like that's and then

15:03 of course Nixon was clearly a corrupt guy as well with Watergate.

15:07 I mean that was covering up the fact that he the Democratic

15:10 party uh operatives working for him when he ran for re-election in 1972

15:16 uh were breaking in and stealing information

15:19 to uh to use against uh the Democratic party.

15:23 and uh he later lied about it and uh fired people who wouldn't lie for him.

15:30 But all of that feels so tame, doesn't it?

15:33 These I mean like the Watergate is not there.

15:35 There's like a Watergate a day in the Trump administration.

15:40 Um and then there are other scandals.

15:42 The Credit Moile scandal is something that I

15:45 always have a hard time saying any French words,

15:48 but that was a scandal during the Ulysus Grant administration.

15:52 The difference of that one was I think

15:54 it Ulysus Grant himself was not a corrupt president, but his friends were.

15:59 And back then though,

16:01 that was when we still had the spoil system or the winner takes the spoils,

16:06 which means whoever wins the presidency, you get to pick all your buddies

16:10 to be in your cabinet or in your administration.

16:13 We got rid of that after Grant because of all the corruption.

16:17 So later uh with James Garfield who's there's a show

16:21 called Death by Lightning just came out on Netflix I highly

16:24 recommend uh Chester Arthur and other presidents after that began

16:30 having a merit-based system saying oh only people that are qualified.

16:33 So but guess what's happening now?

16:36 We're going back to the spoil system.

16:38 We have all just the the Trump loyalists that are working around him.

16:43 That was not the case in his first term.

16:44 And so that means I think I predict another prediction for you.

16:49 We're going to find even more corruption this time around.

16:53 We think it's corrupt now.

16:54 I think we're going to be for decades finding out like

16:58 they were doing what?

16:59 I just think we're all so numb to it in the moment here.

17:02 We're just so like, like I said,

17:03 a Watergate every day that we're just it I don't think we're

17:08 truly comprehending how ridiculously insane these times we are living in are.

17:16 We will eventually, but it's hard when you're in the moment.

17:19 This is cra these are crazy times in terms of American politics.

17:26 We'll get back to the podcast in a minute, but you know,

17:28 starting a business, it sounds exciting until you actually start one.

17:31 Suddenly, you know, you're the CEO, tech support,

17:33 marketing team, accountant, the intern who keeps forgetting their password.

17:36 You know, when I started the show, every day came with a new weight.

17:38 I I'm supposed to know how to do that as well.

17:40 That's why today's sponsor, Shopify, is great.

17:42 It's basically a built-in business partner that doesn't complain or quit.

17:45 Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide,

17:47 including 10% of all US e-commerce.

17:49 And you know, if you're ready to sell, Shopify's got the blueprint.

17:51 Hundreds of readytouse templates so you can build a greatl looking online store

17:54 without having to learn coding aka crying into a tutorial at 1:00 a.m.

17:58 product descriptions, headlines, photo blowup, Shopify's tools,

18:01 they handle the creative stuff so you don't have to hire a small army.

18:03 And it lets you build clean, effective email and social campaigns that make you

18:07 feel like you suddenly have a full department whispering, "We got you." Right?

18:09 Shopify handles all the complicated stuff,

18:11 inventory, shipping, returns, analytics,

18:13 so you can focus on building the thing you care about.

18:16 You know, if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify.

18:17 Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side.

18:20 to sign up for your $1 per

18:22 month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/defranco.

18:25 Go to shopify.com/defranco.

18:27 They made me say it three times.

18:29 Shopify.com/defranco.

18:33 I was going to go into something else, but you mentioned it.

18:35 Did you like So, you said you liked Death by Lightning.

18:38 Is it Is it pretty accurate?

18:39 Would you say I w I just watched I finished it the other night.

18:42 Oh, awesome.

18:42 You saw it.

18:43 Yeah.

18:43 I don't think it's I mean, most shows are not historically accurate that much.

18:47 U they got a few things wrong that I you know I read the book

18:51 that it was based off of and even little details like come on Garfield

18:57 freed Kentucky not Tennessee get this these basic facts right that all aside I

19:03 think it's one of the best shows on on right now on not Netflix.

19:07 I highly recommend it.

19:08 It's so much freaking fun man.

19:10 Like I it gets people interested which to me

19:13 is more important obviously like just get them

19:16 interested in history and then they can do

19:18 the the research into the actual facts later on.

19:21 You know is there someone else that you think that they should jump on?

19:25 So it's like I feel like a lot of Americans

19:26 weren't aware of Hamilton then the Hamilton musical comes out.

19:30 I think James Garfield very much a footnote as far as a lot of American history.

19:36 Um, all of a sudden that became made me uh more hyper aware.

19:39 It's a dumb thing, but it's like I feel like I'm more uh

19:42 knowledgeable of like certain times of international

19:45 history than our own American history.

19:47 So, I'm just like, "Oh, that was enlightening." Is there is there someone you

19:50 think that needs to get the the spotlight next?

19:53 Yeah, there's so many.

19:54 I mean, I could I could give you so many possibilities.

19:56 As far as presidents,

19:58 Andrew Jackson is by far the most interesting president we've ever had.

20:02 Just the fact that he got involved in duels

20:04 and he's the only president to just straight up murder people.

20:08 Uh, at least Trump hasn't done that so far, right?

20:11 Well, I mean, there's there might be another country

20:14 that would like to have a word with you.

20:15 Uh, true, true.

20:16 Well, you can make the argument that every

20:18 president going back to FDR was a war criminal.

20:20 Um, how dare you?

20:21 Yes.

20:22 Yeah.

20:22 Um, but yeah, like as far as like less known figures,

20:25 Victoria Woodhole is one of my favorites.

20:27 She's the first woman to officially run for president even though

20:31 at the time women could not vote basically anywhere except for maybe Wyoming.

20:37 And she's like I'm going to run for president.

20:39 And she was a she was pretty fascinating character like because

20:44 um very outspoken and kind of like was not afraid of anyone.

20:49 So I think she'd be a good story.

20:50 I love that.

20:51 Uh jumping back to the the Epstein scandal with where we are right now.

20:56 Um, we're going to try and knock this out same day.

20:59 Um, how big do you think this scandal actually is with with where

21:03 we are and like him actually having uh to sign the bill?

21:06 I think that this is something that is going to stick around for a long time.

21:09 I think it will make the history books because

21:11 it's symbolic of the populist times that we live in.

21:14 I think that we in the future, I know we always joke around about horseshoe

21:19 theory and I think mostly horseshoes shoe theory is

21:21 whack that oh the far left and far

21:23 right have a lot more in common than differences.

21:26 What it really is I think is populism and populism it can be a good thing,

21:31 it can be a bad thing.

21:32 But in terms of good thing,

21:33 I think there's a lot of um people that are united regardless

21:38 of um political party allegiance or ideology

21:43 that they're united against the so-called elites, whatever you define that as.

21:48 And I think the Epstein files, that is the thing that best represents that.

21:53 That's the only issue where you can like check

21:55 the polling and it's like 90 95% of Americans agree.

22:01 release the files.

22:03 Holy crap.

22:04 In these divided times, that's the thing that So,

22:07 I think there's really I think folks like Marjorie Taylor Green are noticing,

22:11 hey, maybe that's a way I can kind of

22:13 I mean, it's I compare Marjgery Taylor Green

22:15 to actually to someone like George Wallace in American history.

22:18 He was another populist in the 1960s.

22:21 Sure, he was racist.

22:22 Later, he became much less racist, by the way.

22:25 I should say he changed, but he but he uh in the 60s,

22:28 yeah, he kind of ran on this racist platform,

22:30 but the reason why he had more vote like

22:32 he won electoral votes for a lot of states

22:36 and the reason why he had broader support is because

22:39 he tapped into this populism that just and and you know,

22:42 I think most people kind of at least are like,

22:47 "Yeah, I can kind of vibe with that." I mean,

22:49 you know, like get the Yeah, there are there's the old George Carlin quote.

22:53 Um, it's a big club, but you ain't in it.

22:56 You know, people can relate to that generally.

22:58 So, I I think that's the direction she's going.

23:01 And I think someone like on on the left side of the spectrum,

23:04 AOC, Alexandria Okaziocortez, heck yeah,

23:08 she's she's tapping into that populism right now.

23:11 And Epste files that just pulls it all that that's that's

23:15 going to be the thing that unites many Republicans and Democrats.

23:19 Well, that that is something I was thinking of again.

23:20 I mean, I I constantly bring up that that there

23:23 are a number of AOC voters that are Trump voters.

23:25 It was something that came up when Mumani met with Trump

23:27 that there are a number of uh people that voted for both

23:29 of them even though you would think that they're so drastically different

23:32 and that affordability and and uh yeah cost of living and and quality

23:38 of life are such big issues and you know Trump talked about

23:40 that and then then it also makes me think uh you know would

23:45 the Epstein situation be so big for his base still or at least

23:50 a chunk of it if the economy was like thriving right now?

23:54 if it didn't feel like the cost of things

23:56 were going up and people were getting paid better.

23:58 Um, do you have any feelings to that?

24:00 I mean, or uh thoughts on that?

24:02 I agree that it would not be populism would not be rising

24:07 if not for the the economy being so out of whack right now.

24:10 And it's mostly wealth inequality specifically um because

24:14 there there's a lot of wealth in this country,

24:16 but it's just so concentrated at the top.

24:18 And it's been like this at least since the Great Recession.

24:22 Um, but it's just worse now than it's been ever.

24:26 Even going back to the Gilded Age, I keep telling people this.

24:29 If you look at the Gilded Age wealth concentration of the 1880s,

24:33 1890s, it wasn't as bad as it is today.

24:36 That's a big freaking deal.

24:38 That's something that should be brought up all the time.

24:40 I know you've had other guests that have also brought this up.

24:43 Yeah.

24:44 like this is uh no wonder mom Donnie had such broad

24:50 support in New York City because

24:52 that's what everybody's constantly thinking about.

24:55 Yeah.

24:55 I don't know.

24:56 I mean this is so like besides where I want the conversation to go,

24:59 but it's just having anyone to talk about it.

25:01 I do wonder what support from Omdani looks

25:05 like in a year because I don't know when I when I look at him and how

25:08 he's he was handling Trump and navigating that situation.

25:12 I see someone that I'm like, "Oh, this is this is like a top tier politicians.

25:16 He's he's figuring out how to navigate things." But there is kind of some

25:20 of that chirping that you're hearing from uh one of the sides that it's like,

25:24 "Oh, he was just all talk.

25:25 like he should have like like the thought is

25:28 that he should have like kicked in the door

25:29 to the White House and like pointed a finger in Trump's face and been like down

25:33 with the fascists and I was like I just it it I don't know it felt and so

25:37 I wonder what portion of his support are people

25:40 like that or if that's just chirping on the internet.

25:42 He's a great politician.

25:44 I mean all great politicians are good at communication.

25:46 That's how they gain power and how they

25:49 convince people to vote for them and all.

25:52 But more importantly to this context,

25:55 it's how they get along with other politicians.

25:57 Mom Donnie knew that, you know,

25:59 it would be pointless just to go in there and lecture the president.

26:02 Um, you got to smooge him.

26:04 You got to sweet.

26:05 I mean, everybody knows that Trump likes oneon-one.

26:08 If you're just sitting there being nice to him and complimenting him,

26:11 he's going to like think you're the greatest person ever.

26:14 And that's what he did.

26:16 Yeah, I'm I'm very fascinated.

26:18 I I'm very fascinated to see where that that goes.

26:20 But Matt, I want to go back to uh to history

26:22 because I'm I I'm getting more and more into it.

26:24 It's it's such a a big focus for you.

26:27 Um have have you watched the the Ken Burns documentary?

26:30 And if so, how is it?

26:31 Because I I've I've heard c actually different things,

26:34 but I'm going to start probably sometime on this trip.

26:36 Yeah, I watched the first episode.

26:39 It's uh I I mean I'm a fan of Ken Burns, obviously.

26:42 uh he's someone who inspired my own uh videos,

26:45 but I think part of the problem is uh what

26:50 people like have been criticizing him for various reasons, but

26:55 for me, my biggest thing is like you're

26:57 trying to get younger people interested in history.

27:00 You got to condense it, buddy.

27:02 You gota you can't have like like 10-hour long documentary.

27:06 Um that's you want the Ken Burns Tik Tok channel.

27:09 You're like, "Come on, Ken." Yeah, I mean there are clips,

27:11 but even then like it's a much slower paced

27:13 thing and but uh there's a lot of people saying,

27:17 "Oh, this is too woke or whatever." Uh have you heard those criticisms?

27:21 No.

27:22 Wait, what is the criticism?

27:23 That oh, you're getting too many perspectives from uh I

27:28 guess for lack of a better way of putting it,

27:30 nontraditional characters in the American Revolution.

27:34 we typically hear from, you know,

27:35 the the generals on the battlefield or the politicians.

27:39 Uh I mean, that's bringing the perspectives of uh slaves

27:44 or Native Americans or women to apparently is woke,

27:48 I guess, has been a criticism.

27:50 That's ridiculous.

27:51 Well, that's like that's like the whole crackdown that we're

27:53 seeing uh from certain people on the right for history.

27:57 They're like, "This is this is about guilting people." And I'm like,

28:00 "Here here's the thing.

28:01 I'm not going to feel guilty for something that I wasn't a part of, but we

28:05 need to be aware of how like

28:07 other people's experiences to fully understand the situation.

28:10 I don't understand how that is uh it it's

28:14 so it's also so annoying that that woke has become

28:16 this derogatory term for being thoughtful about other how how

28:22 like things are impacting people that don't look like you.

28:24 It's[ __] bananas to me.

28:25 But anyway, well, and also I think I struggle with this because

28:29 I my channel is predominantly American political history.

28:33 Well, that's mostly white dudes.

28:36 Okay, it's very difficult for me and and mostly

28:38 it's white dudes that watch my channel.

28:40 So, I'm just like if I want to make a video about

28:43 uh any female or any person of color,

28:46 I feel like it's like it stands out more like and it shouldn't be that way.

28:51 It shouldn't freaking be that way, but it is.

28:54 Um, and and sad to say, like if I do release a video about Jane Adams,

28:58 who I think was a really important figure during the progressive era,

29:02 uh, which I did release a video a few years ago, it tanked.

29:06 Very few people watched it.

29:07 Um, I'm That's why I know this sounds bad,

29:11 but a lot of times I'm releasing

29:12 videos about presidents because that's what gets views.

29:15 That's gets people reeled in.

29:17 And then you can kind of teach them other lessons.

29:20 Oh, you Oh, you're here for George Washington.

29:22 Okay.

29:22 Well, guess what?

29:23 here's this also happened, you know.

29:25 So, it's it's tough because, you know,

29:27 Ken Burns doesn't have to worry about this.

29:29 PBS has gives him that sweet money, but me on YouTube,

29:33 I feel like I'm kind of trapped into like covering a bunch of old white dudes

29:37 that are on the on money in order to get people to click on the video.

29:42 That's so funny.

29:42 I never thought that for your channel you'd

29:44 have to do like something I used to do more heavily on on my channel was like

29:48 here's your here's like the dessert and then

29:51 I'm going to sneak in vegetables of like

29:52 here's the pop culture news here's I never thought

29:54 that there would be a version of that for you

29:56 but that's that is that's so interesting.

29:59 So I mean I don't know does that make

30:01 you think uh a certain way about your audience?

30:03 I don't know.

30:04 That's that's interesting.

30:05 Well my audience is pretty smart and uh very very handsome.

30:10 Uh, but I I will say like it's okay.

30:14 It's just kind of the game we're in and uh you know better than anyone.

30:18 I I think there are times when I just say screw it.

30:21 I'm just going to release this a video about an obscure

30:23 Supreme Court case which I did and it it tanked as well.

30:26 But it does reach a certain audience.

30:28 Um a lot of my videos still are like teachers

30:31 force them upon their students and so like captive audience,

30:35 you're going to watch this and learn, you know.

30:37 Um, but yeah, I I do I do constantly struggle with that because, you know,

30:41 I still got to pay the bills and so like I can't I mean,

30:44 that's why it's always good to fall back on presidential stuff.

30:47 I mean, yeah, I I would obviously you you got your game plan.

30:51 I I would implore you to maybe even treat

30:53 it like uh directors where they're like one for you,

30:56 one for me sort of thing of like I feel like I feel like because Yeah,

31:00 because if you just start making stuff for other people then that's

31:03 the quickest way I've seen people going like I don't like this job anymore.

31:06 I don't know.

31:06 I mean, that's that was a big part of me is

31:09 I was like I started hitting this point where I was like,

31:11 it feels like I'm almost incentivized to either talk about

31:15 certain things or like kind of shut up about other things.

31:18 And that doesn't feel good for me.

31:20 There's no way I'm going to continue like a a shell of of my uh my uh my show.

31:26 But I also I will say we need channels like yours because for the longest time

31:31 as a young man my my understanding of who

31:35 Ken Burns was is he was an iMovie effect.

31:39 Oh that's right.

31:39 It comes up as the on iMovie.

31:42 The Ken Birds effect.

31:43 When I was starting editing I was like oh okay I see what it does.

31:47 Thanks Ken Birds for coming up with that motion.

31:50 No.

31:51 Also what a dumb person.

31:52 I didn't even Google who's Ken Birds.

31:55 like I had to just find out later in life and be like,

31:58 "Oh, this is very fascinating." But on the note of uh learning, I mean,

32:01 what what lessons and there's probably so many,

32:03 so let we can let's do a top three a podium uh

32:07 lessons do you think Americans need to relearn from the American Revolution?

32:12 Oh, uh so I think it was more the first

32:16 lesson is it was way more than just taxes.

32:18 Uh it was really the whole enlighten enlightenment.

32:23 Um so when we talk about the enlightenment we're

32:25 talking about a period that started in in Europe,

32:29 places like England and France um and then spread everywhere.

32:35 Ideas like liberty and reason and secularism

32:40 and uh just like tolerance, justice, equality.

32:45 What I mean these are all things we take for granted.

32:47 And so I I think because we take them for granted,

32:49 we don't think deeply about where they come from.

32:52 And that's under attack right now.

32:54 Many enlightenment ideals I think we're

32:56 seeing around the world are under attack.

32:58 And but that was the American Revolution is a big

33:02 reason why enlightenment ideals continued to spread into not just like

33:07 it wasn't just mo a movement.

33:09 It was like these they became entrenched in institutions.

33:15 Um, okay.

33:16 That's one.

33:16 You You wanted three.

33:18 If If there's If I mean, if we know who's at number one,

33:21 so I I just I I never want to limit someone because sometimes you're like,

33:24 "What's your favorite movie?" And you're like,

33:26 "That's impossible, right?" It's like Yeah.

33:29 So, it's like I guess the what's your favorite movie of the American Revolution?

33:35 No, I mean, yeah, like that really is a I

33:38 guess you could you could break down each ideal, you know?

33:41 You could say um Well, how about this?

33:43 I I'll I'll switch it into something else.

33:45 What is something you wish more people knew about the American Revolution?

33:48 That it was not that big of uh a revolution in the beginning.

33:52 Uh in fact, it was just a small group of people that kind of got things started.

33:57 Many of them were in Boston, Massachusetts.

34:00 Many of them were kind of crazy people like Sam Adams.

34:03 I think he he was kind of a crazy uh uh son of a mother.

34:08 But then you had people like Thomas Payne

34:11 who I think is underrated in American history.

34:13 Thomas Payne, he was the the one who got these ideas uh into the mainstream.

34:20 Like after um Thomas Payne uh wrote uh Common Sense

34:27 was his book that it was short, it was accessible,

34:30 anybody could read it and it it provided

34:33 a plain and easy case for uh independence from Britain.

34:38 And in a short span of time, just a few months,

34:40 he was able to change many Americans minds

34:43 and get a lot of uh when I say Americans, you know, at the time that that whole

34:47 idea of being called an American was still new,

34:50 but just the fact that he he convinced a lot of people in the colonies that hey,

34:53 we are our own distinct people that ought to be separate

34:57 from uh England and made people question their identity, which is crazy.

35:02 So that that power that he had to persuade people uh

35:06 with common sense I think is definitely not looked at enough.

35:10 So Matt then another qu another question here.

35:12 Why do you think the American re revolution has been so sanitized?

35:16 Right?

35:16 Cuz when I look back when I was growing up right

35:18 it was like Paul Rivere it's like uh the British are coming.

35:21 You hear uh I don't know all these like

35:24 really like passionate speeches but it was like

35:26 the American Revolution was a place where it

35:28 was like it was a civil war at home.

35:30 Um you had loyalists being hung.

35:32 You had colonists uh killing and assaulting local British officials.

35:36 There was lots of mob violence, burning of effiges.

35:39 Um very bloody war.

35:40 I feel like when we think of like bloody American wars, we think of civil war.

35:43 But it was very uh it was very I mean like all wars, horrific.

35:48 And so do you feel like we have sanitized it or am I I don't know just

35:52 kind of not I haven't looked or I

35:55 haven't I haven't had a different education on it.

35:57 Uh I don't know if sanitiz word honestly.

36:00 I think I think oversimplification is the better

36:02 way because um and you mentioned Paul Rivere.

36:06 I mean that dude wasn't even that important

36:07 but the only reason why we talk about Paul River is

36:10 because there was a freaking poem that was written

36:11 about him a few years later that was really popular.

36:13 Yeah.

36:14 I actually have a video called Paul River was overrated.

36:17 Um

36:19 you're the only one you're the only one that looks at Paul Paul River as an op.

36:22 You're like no no no.

36:26 Yeah.

36:25 __] Paul River.

36:27 It's It's so weird how certain figures just get way more attention than others.

36:31 But yeah, like uh I just think I'm glad that this documentary is out.

36:36 I know I was like talking trash about how long it is and slow paced it is,

36:41 but it's good to have all this nuance for the first time.

36:44 There's another great you uh YouTube channel called

36:47 Atunshi Films who he basically sums up a lot

36:50 of the points that Ken Burns makes in 30

36:53 minutes versus 10 hours that I highly recommend.

36:55 But yeah, it it tackles a lot of those misconceptions and just adds a lot

36:59 of nuance that needs to be added to pretty much every historical event really.

37:05 Let me let me ask you a fun insane question.

37:08 Do you agree with Ken Burns that the American Revolution is

37:11 the most important moment in human history since the birth of Christ?

37:14 Oh, he did say that, didn't he?

37:16 Um, yeah.

37:17 I don't I don't want to just fully agree with that, but I see his point.

37:21 Yeah.

37:22 Right.

37:22 uh and the birth of Christ.

37:23 Uh, I mean, you could even say, well, hold on.

37:27 If you're going to go that, if you're going to say stuff like that, then

37:29 why don't you just go back to like the birth of written language or something,

37:32 the invention of writing or the I don't know.

37:34 I think the there's a better case to make that um technological

37:39 advance is more um impactful than any one series of events, you know,

37:45 because if you know the French Revolution

37:47 happened a short time after the American Revolution,

37:50 people say, "Well, that would not never have

37:51 happened if it not for the American Revolution." Really?

37:55 Is that how do you know like because a lot of the same

37:58 patterns were happening in different parts of the world at the same time.

38:01 Um, the bigger trend is how communication got around.

38:06 I always say like I actually wrote this in a a document

38:10 on my phone the other day because I was like, "Oh,

38:11 I should bring that up in a video."

38:12 But like there's just been different eras based

38:15 on new in inventions uh communication inventions like starting

38:20 with uh the printing press big development uh later

38:26 on the telegraph uh telephone mass communications TV

38:31 and uh radio later the internet I mean these things

38:35 I think are much more impactful than any revolution

38:39 because those revolutions don't happen without those technological innovations.

38:45 So, okay.

38:46 So, let's let's continue down this road of like uh overrated or underrated.

38:51 Um so, George Washington, right?

38:53 Uh fires the first shot in the in the sevenyear

38:56 seven years war uh kind of like a world war.

38:59 Then the British crown raises taxes on uh colonists to pay

39:03 for that war and Washington leads the rebellion against those taxes.

39:07 for, you know, as overplayed as the the great men of history theory is,

39:12 is it true of Washington?

39:14 Is is Washington do you think he's he's undervalued

39:19 uh as far as like a a man of history?

39:21 I don't think he's undervalued, but he is my favorite president.

39:24 I think the most important figure in American history, undoubtedly,

39:27 and it's more because he's like a symbol these days.

39:30 Um even he even during his time he had become a symbol.

39:34 Um, sure he was pivotal in, you know, in certain moments.

39:39 He was a a great leader that brought

39:41 people together that otherwise would not come together.

39:44 Um, he's was, you know, he's the one who led the Continental Army.

39:48 Before the Continental Army,

39:50 you had rag tag groups of that were not united in resisting British rule.

39:56 So, yeah.

39:57 uh the fact that there's going to be a 500 foot sculpture

40:00 of him apparently built uh I don't know if you read this uh no

40:04 I think Washington gets a lot of respect um he's definitely probably

40:08 maybe a little overhyped up I say that as a Washington fan

40:13 but uh I think the better way to think about it is like

40:17 if there was no Washington I know I I generally hate alternate history

40:21 but maybe this is an exception what if George Washington never existed kind

40:25 of like what if George Bailey didn't exist and it's a wonderful life.

40:29 You just I think that things would have gone dramatically differently.

40:32 Um he was the right person for the right moment.

40:34 We got lucky.

40:36 The United States was extremely lucky because you look at all

40:39 these other revolutions that have happened and things didn't turn out so great.

40:42 You had just a new dictator take over

40:45 and more chaos and more wars down the road.

40:48 We've had a pretty stable country overall ever since Washington.

40:55 We'll get right back to the pod in a minute,

40:56 but first let me say, you know, the weather is just crazy this year.

40:59 One day it's sunny, the next day, you know, I'm waiting through sidewalk soup.

41:02 But then today's sponsor, Bessie, and specifically their Storm Bursts,

41:05 but they're basically cheat codes for bad weather.

41:07 Fully waterproof, ridiculously comfortable,

41:09 and somehow still lightweight enough that I don't

41:11 sound like a T-Rex stomping around the office.

41:13 And the Stormbstur looks like a regular sneaker, but acts like a boot.

41:16 Rain, slush, mystery puddle juice.

41:18 It just shrugs it all.

41:19 And I love that I don't have to do

41:20 that step around every wet spot dance anymore.

41:22 I just walk straight through the mess like a man with waterproof confidence.

41:25 Inside, warm, dry, not swampoot.

41:28 Outside clean enough that I'm not tracking wet footprints everywhere I go.

41:31 But also, dry feet only matter if your jacket isn't betraying you.

41:34 And there, enter the coastal jacket.

41:35 Waterproof, windproof, lightweight, and weirdly flattering.

41:38 It's a jacket that you bring just in case,

41:40 and you end up wearing constantly because it actually does its job.

41:42 Perfect for travel, school drop offs, or surviving the weather.

41:45 Both the Storm Burst and the Coastal jacket are built for real life.

41:48 unpredictable, messy, sometimes soaking wet.

41:50 And hey, it's Vessie's huge holiday event,

41:52 so hurry up while everything's at at least 25% off and up to 55% off sitewide.

41:56 So scan that QR code or go to vessie.com.

41:58 It's vessie.com from 25% up to 55% off sitewide.

42:04 Yeah.

42:04 I mean, connected to that, I mean,

42:05 do you think like the the French Revolution scared Jefferson maybe than like

42:09 more than he was willing to admit or is kind of talked about?

42:13 Look at your knowledge, man.

42:14 Yeah, you know this stuff.

42:16 I like this little bit little bits of peace.

42:18 Yeah, definitely Jefferson was a fan of the French Revolution,

42:20 but it did get kind of crazy.

42:24 Uh that, you know, with the hysteria

42:26 and the just the executions driven by paranoia,

42:30 uh folks like Rose Pierre, I mean,

42:33 you had a revolution that got out of hand very quickly.

42:37 And I think the difference with the United States was you had Yeah.

42:40 Washington was that uh kind of moderating influence and the most

42:47 the biggest reason why is because he was not power hungry.

42:50 He uh twice stepped down, retired.

42:53 He just wanted to go back to his farm.

42:55 Uh the first time after the war was over, he's like, "Okay,

42:58 I'm going to retire now." Even though he

43:00 could have just been emperor right at that moment.

43:02 And then later on uh after he was president,

43:05 you know, reluctantly he joined politics.

43:08 He did not want to become president, but everybody was like, "Well,

43:11 who else is going to do it?" And then he's he is president.

43:14 Uh, and he's like, "No,

43:16 I am retiring." He could have easily stayed in there the rest of his life.

43:19 Um, he easily could have been a king.

43:22 Yeah.

43:22 I don't know.

43:23 I I I often wonder if if kind of what we see

43:26 is always kind of young radicals that that end I don't know.

43:30 I don't know if it's through the experience or through

43:33 uh through what it seemed to kind of calm down.

43:36 I don't I mean, talking about Jefferson, right?

43:38 Jefferson's letters,

43:39 he seems kind of like this this young idealistic young radical.

43:44 Um, you know, he's even for uh I think uh I think does he does he So,

43:50 I'm I always get torn on this, so you're more of the expert here.

43:53 Did he like fiercely oppose slavery, but then didn't he have a ton of slaves?

43:59 Um, so I'm Yeah.

44:00 And but and then like I don't know.

44:02 Yeah.

44:02 Can you enlighten me there?

44:04 So, you were saying, "Oh, you know something?" I was like,

44:06 I feel like there's conflicting stuff that it's not connecting in my brain.

44:09 No, that's that's absolutely right.

44:11 Thomas Jefferson had more slaves than any

44:12 other president in American history and he did

44:15 not free them upon his death and he had a relationship with one of them.

44:20 Uh he had several children with one of them

44:23 and so yeah, not a good guy um in terms of who he was as a person,

44:28 but I think we remember Jefferson's words more than we remember him as a person.

44:32 like because what he his ideals,

44:34 what he thought we ought to be is like what we still continue to aspire to be.

44:39 And so Jefferson's tough.

44:41 I mean, people Yeah.

44:44 people say that he's evil for what he he did.

44:46 And I get it.

44:47 Um but we can still take away the words that he

44:50 wrote down that were so incredibly ahead of his time.

44:54 Like it's, you know, you say radical, he was radical for his time.

44:59 like stuff that we do take granted for granted like the what

45:02 I was mentioning earlier the enlightenment ideals he encapsulated all all

45:06 of that and he made sure that they would be a part

45:09 of this new government that we were

45:10 forming and and part of the new constitution.

45:14 Yeah.

45:14 I don't know.

45:15 When especially when it gets into like the the war of words,

45:18 uh I part of like me asking you like are there certain lessons

45:22 uh to be learned because I I start getting into the the hypothetical, right?

45:26 Uh I think I start asking questions from the little

45:29 that I've seen of like why like and I'll ask you,

45:32 you know, why do you think that the British

45:33 never tried to to gag like Sam Adams, Ben Franklin, Thomas Payne?

45:38 Like was it because they saw them as kind of gnats and it was like beneath them?

45:44 Uh or like it was nothing to even be

45:46 worried about because I don't know there there is potentially

45:49 an argument that if they had cracked down sooner and harsher

45:53 that maybe they would have been able to stop America.

45:56 I don't think they realized how big the resistance was,

46:00 even though it was fairly small and it was like I I get it.

46:03 But also like just the logistics of it,

46:06 that giant ocean between England and the colonies,

46:11 it took months to get to cross that ocean.

46:14 So it's hard to control people around the world even today.

46:17 Yeah.

46:17 I mean, it's not a new thought, but yeah,

46:19 it is uh very interesting that based off of where we were technologically,

46:23 there was this sweet spot of where something like that would be possible.

46:27 You have the technology to get there,

46:29 but there is still such a limitation that it is this just like untameable thing.

46:35 Okay.

46:35 So then with kind of that that understanding of it's really hard to stop it.

46:40 I was interested how true is it that that Sam

46:42 Adams was like conspreting spreading

46:44 conspiracy theories and disinformation intentionally?

46:48 It wasn't just him.

46:48 Paul River did as well.

46:50 Yeah.

46:51 Ben Franklin is the king of misinformation.

46:53 He like he was spreading fake news all the time.

46:55 Yeah.

46:55 Like that's what I always tell people.

46:57 The era we're living in now is that's not new.

47:00 Like I think the difference now is um more and more people are just

47:05 believing it.

47:05 Um whereas I think yeah we got

47:07 to think critically about the information we consume.

47:10 But yeah, they that's they were very persuasive with uh

47:14 their I mean most of the time they just exaggerated like Boston

47:18 Massacre is a great example of that how u we you

47:21 probably have in your head the the famous image of it.

47:25 Um it was Paul Rivere was a big reason why that image

47:29 um spread across the colonies um because he was a he owned

47:34 a printing press and Ben Franklin as well like he was just

47:38 a somebody who was able to um communicate well and then yeah often exaggerated.

47:44 Yeah.

47:44 It just it kind of makes me think of like does

47:48 that mean like if if if times were different like they'd

47:52 have Twitter accounts that are like George is a clown

47:54 or like George is a clown and it's like defeat the monarchy.

47:58 Um and then it makes it makes me wonder about or the future from here.

48:02 Are we gonna have history books that are like,

48:04 "It all started because this uh account was

48:08 started on Twitter that spread misinformation and it it

48:11 was the spark that was needed to to do

48:13 some new crazy thing." It's uh I don't know.

48:16 I I I I wonder if there's there are concerning lessons um to be to be learned.

48:23 I mean, we talked about um I I

48:25 use the word sanitize for the American Revolution.

48:27 And I know you were like I wouldn't say it's that of simplification,

48:30 but it does feel like there's a lot that's always sanitized.

48:32 I think back to like the civil rights movement.

48:35 I feel like that's been sanitized so much to to be like,

48:38 you know, the peaceful protest one and it's like,

48:40 well, there was so much violence that that made people go like,

48:44 okay, let's let's let's talk about the peaceful protest.

48:47 Um, it it I don't know.

48:49 And so I I get really nervous from a lot of the lessons because it

48:52 feels like a lot of lessons from history is like that bad things have to happen.

48:59 Yeah.

48:59 I think that Well, well, look at 2020.

49:03 Also, just throwing this in.

49:04 I'm not calling for that.

49:05 Yeah.

49:05 Right.

49:07 Well, it may be inevitable, but I think 2020 is a a recent fascinating year

49:12 in American history in terms of of course there was chaos.

49:15 Of course, there were a lot of protests

49:16 with uh after what happened with George Floyd.

49:19 Um but you noticed that most of the post protests were peaceful,

49:23 but what got the attention was the the crazy block in Portland.

49:28 Um and even to this day, the president still has that in his mind.

49:32 He's thinking that that's happening right now when it's not.

49:35 Um I think you made a really good point.

49:38 Um it doesn't matter what the broader trend is.

49:42 It matters what we focus on.

49:44 And historians have to constantly worry about this.

49:48 I I do worry because of the unique times we live in.

49:52 We Some people call it the the information age.

49:55 I call it the misinformation age because maybe I'm more cynical.

49:59 But the fact is there's so much information out there right now.

50:04 And so in the future, how are historians going to dissect all that, analyze

50:09 all that, evaluate all that, choose what stories are told?

50:13 And again, it's always the problem too of like the people who,

50:15 you know, this is cliche,

50:16 but winners write history, those in power write history.

50:20 That's why Howard Zen was such a big deal when he came out and told the stories

50:23 of uh people who typically didn't have

50:26 their stories told because they didn't have power historically.

50:29 Yeah.

50:29 I mean, looking back and forth,

50:31 like when we're comparing and contrasting historic events to where we are now,

50:35 do you think the founding fathers would look at the way that we do

50:40 elections and go like that makes sense or would they find it inherently corrupt?

50:45 I think most of them would find it inherently corrupt.

50:48 Yeah.

50:49 Uh they I mean for starters,

50:52 gerrymandering was something that many of them probably

50:54 didn't anticipate uh getting out of control like this.

50:57 Um, representation is is not very good right

51:02 now and was never supposed to be this bad.

51:05 Um, that's the big I mean they didn't want direct democracy.

51:09 Don't get it twisted like they were terrified of just direct pure

51:13 democracy but at the same time

51:15 we don't even have representative democracy anymore.

51:18 You I think a lot of people argue that.

51:19 So that would definitely trouble I think many of the founders.

51:23 What is what do you think the argument is against direct democracy?

51:27 Is it that there almost needs to be a timeout period where it's like,

51:30 okay, well, if the people really feel this strongly,

51:32 then they'll elect people a certain way and so

51:35 there will be uh a slowdown and so it's like

51:38 a portion of checks and balances or I don't

51:41 know what do you what what is the argument there?

51:43 We're just too dang emotional, you know, like uh like people are Yeah,

51:48 we we that's a good thing that I think we're emotional creatures, you know?

51:53 Uh but at the same time, yeah, like you said,

51:55 there needs to be that timeout period for some things because,

51:57 you know, you don't want to make a decision that's can bite you in the butt.

52:00 And that's why also like demagogues um are really good at manipulating people.

52:08 Um and because of that that yeah they tap into our emotions and we

52:12 don't really think logically about what the actual

52:15 consequences are going to be and that's

52:17 why yeah many people who who uh say okay you can have democracy but there

52:23 needs to be at least some kind of buffer there to kind of limit democracy

52:28 with that uh you know of all the founders that who do you think

52:31 would be kind of like most at home or fit in the best in 2025?

52:35 probably Thomas Payne just because he's he uh was he

52:40 was I mean he was an atheist and I think that's

52:42 an that's a big part of it like he was somebody

52:44 who was extremely radical for back then but now he'd be

52:49 you'd find him on any Reddit post you know like uh

52:54 most of them were pretty religious actually I know that uh

52:56 we were founded as a secular country but we we

53:00 also have to acknowledge that most of the founders were um

53:03 Christian devout Christians Um,

53:05 so I I do think uh we're a much less religious country now.

53:10 Um, actually I think I used a clip of of you in my video

53:14 when I went over every single religion

53:16 and uh every religion of every American president.

53:20 There was a clip I found of yours where you were talking about that general

53:23 trend of how uh more like more Americans now are non-religious than ever before.

53:31 So yeah, that's a fun one.

53:33 Is is that still trending that way?

53:36 Because I I've seen people saying that it's like,

53:38 oh, young people are going back,

53:39 but then I've also seen people say say that that I this is

53:42 a situation I haven't dove into because it wasn't the most interesting to me.

53:45 But I think it is interesting.

53:47 Uh are young people bringing it back or no, that's being overstated.

53:50 Do you know?

53:51 Uh a little bit.

53:52 Yeah, there I mean there's some like Gen Z I think

53:55 is is not as less religious as like say millennials were,

54:00 but it's still the trend overall is still in that direction.

54:03 It's just slowed down.

54:04 It felt like it was part of maybe like this like the the move

54:08 or that yeah the move we saw over like the the last

54:10 few years of people kind of going like oh it's almost counterculture

54:13 to go to traditional uh a traditional mindset whether it be traditional home,

54:17 traditional values, traditional religion.

54:19 And so I didn't know how how wide widespread

54:23 that was because it does it does feel like when

54:25 times are hard it it it increases the likelihood

54:28 that people will gravitate towards something that brings a group together.

54:32 Absolutely.

54:33 Yeah.

54:33 So there's that argument as well.

54:35 But both of those I think the uh I don't know why it is but I I do think that um

54:42 part of it is a lot of younger people are

54:46 um they just don't have much hope for the future.

54:49 And so it's easier to turn to spiritual the spiritual realm for sure.

54:54 So Matt, I know that you keep saying I'm so cynical,

54:57 but I know I know that there is an optimist

54:59 in there based of our based off of our last chat.

55:02 So Right.

55:02 Right.

55:03 What what what is what is what is there to be optimistic from this moment?

55:08 And then you know what we'll come back together next year and we'll

55:10 see how much of it was misplaced or hopeful rather than realist uh realistic.

55:14 But where where's some optimism right now?

55:16 and you could anywhere uh for American life, American youth, whoever.

55:21 I mentioned this earlier, but I do think that this rising populism that we

55:25 see uh regardless of party affiliation and ideology uh just

55:31 a lot of people coming together to recognize that uh

55:34 the game is rigged and uh it's like the Hunger

55:37 Games kind of like some people get in like uh

55:39 like you and I are lucky enough to like burst

55:42 through and like have success uh but most people don't

55:46 really have the same opportunities uh compared to previous generations.

55:50 That's the difference.

55:50 I think we compare our lives to our parents and our grandparents when we look

55:55 at all the prosperity uh between the 19 uh between World War II and the 1970s.

56:01 Um the main I think to look at is social mobility, economic mobility.

56:06 So your ability to like start maybe you're born

56:09 poor but then you're able to like become a millionaire.

56:13 those statistically it's it's harder for that to happen

56:17 in 2025 compared to that era.

56:21 My hope is that stuff like that recognizing

56:23 that this is actually um this is based on class.

56:27 This is not not we've been focusing so long on culture stuff, culture war stuff,

56:32 social issues.

56:33 Now, I think a lot of people are coming together on class

56:36 issues that and that gives me hope because uh you know,

56:40 we can all I think come together on certain things

56:43 that would make us all have a better chance at um prosperity.

56:49 Um and yeah, Marjorie Taylor Green, shout out to her again.

56:52 Maybe she's an example of that.

56:54 I know I have big shout out to Marjorie Taylor Green.

56:58 I've got my my co-host on my other podcast, Crashing Out,

57:00 is going to see shout out to to Marjorie Taylor Green.

57:03 And he's gonna his his head's going to explode.

57:05 He's going to go, "What the[ __]

57:07 This is what YOU'RE DOING, PHIL." I'M LIKE, "IT'S not what we're doing.

57:10 It was It's not what he meant." I uh No, you're great.

57:14 Yeah.

57:14 I I do wonder regarding the class stuff.

57:16 I do wonder how effective it'll be because it

57:18 felt like in the aftermath of uh of Kirk,

57:22 it felt like Trump and other Republicans were able

57:24 to more effectively try to separate other situations like the Luigi

57:30 Manion thing into left versus right rather than um uh

57:34 a a kind of a class war uh sort of situation.

57:37 And it seemed somewhat effective.

57:40 But I also have to always when I look to social media,

57:44 remember this can give me an insight,

57:46 but it is also incredibly prone for manipulation,

57:49 which I don't know if you have any thoughts on on this.

57:52 Um, have you have you been seeing the uh

57:55 the the big Twitter update where you can

57:56 see where accounts uh were created and like

57:59 just the crazy fighting that's been happening around it.

58:02 It's been so fascinating.

58:03 But it doesn't surprise us, right?

58:04 I mean, we knew that a lot of this stuff was coming from foreign agents.

58:08 Like, uh, but I think being a but being able to see it,

58:11 it's one of those things where it's like where Elon Musk accidentally,

58:16 I don't know if he realizes it,

58:17 accidentally scores like an own goal against himself where where he like

58:22 cuz cuz it's like actually very insightful to be like, "Oh, okay.

58:25 This is not just someone going if it feels off." It's kind of like

58:30 uh where where it's like someone would say something and you have people

58:33 doing the uh I want what is it three shots or whatever that meme

58:36 from that uh that movie where it's like he's not doing it like that.

58:41 Uh where Yeah.

58:42 So I but I wonder if it actually impact long term

58:44 if this is going to impact the effectiveness of those channels.

58:47 I hope so.

58:48 Um because it's like they're trying to puppeteer

58:51 Americans and that should make us that should make

58:54 you angry like just because they're saying things

58:56 and if anything it should also make you question things.

58:58 if uh it was kind of the same thing of like uh when

59:02 it was outed that a lot a number of uh channels on YouTube,

59:08 primarily right-wing channels,

59:10 uh and I I I'm not even going to say that they knew where

59:12 the money was coming from, but like they were getting money from foreign groups.

59:17 It makes you it I'd hope that it would make people question,

59:21 well, why would they give those creators money?

59:23 Why would they want to support those messages?

59:25 And it's because it it creates more and more infighting and chaos.

59:29 And when we're chaotic, we're a weaker country.

59:32 Absolutely.

59:32 Yeah.

59:32 I think sadly we don't follow the money enough.

59:36 We say we do.

59:36 Oh yeah, just follow the money, man.

59:38 Big pharma.

59:39 But yeah, but are you following the money everywhere?

59:41 Because clearly there are foreign governments that like us divided and uh

59:48 it's pretty easy to divide us with certain issues on social media.

59:52 And it only takes a few accounts to get something trending.

59:57 So that's the other thing that's that's why I still think what we said last

1:00:00 time like just logging off these social media

1:00:02 accounts could probably um help more than anything.

1:00:07 That's why you should only watch our videos and then log off and then yeah,

1:00:11 we'll see you next upload.

1:00:12 Just turn notifications on.

1:00:13 I keep shooting ourselves in the foot.

1:00:15 I know this.

1:00:15 I I we No, no, no.

1:00:17 This is I'm not I'm not saying it sarcastically.

1:00:19 I well I'm saying it a little sarcastically but I think it's

1:00:22 why to your point when you're like you got to condense it.

1:00:24 I think it's also because uh not only for for attention

1:00:27 spans but it's like dude people are just trying

1:00:29 to survive like you know yeah we could people like

1:00:33 can have those moments where they're they're binging but I

1:00:35 don't know it it at certain points it sometimes feels

1:00:39 it would feel elitist to to a certain degree to be

1:00:42 like how are you not aware and it's like homie

1:00:44 some people are working two three jobs just to survive.

1:00:47 I was like, the news is about them, right?

1:00:51 They're just they're like the news is about the struggle.

1:00:54 Um, and so I don't know.

1:00:55 I I get it.

1:00:56 But so I my big thing is yeah,

1:00:57 I feel like we're trying to create these at least it's

1:01:01 part of the reason I talk so fast on my main show.

1:01:03 I'm trying to make this very dense,

1:01:04 nutrient-rich thing so people can understand it and then

1:01:07 get on with their lives and it not be part of a chef's menu 20 course meal

1:01:13 of a news just degrading what's uh breaking down your brain.

1:01:18 So that's I I so I say that a little sarcastically but also li expand

1:01:23 your mind but also limit how much you're

1:01:26 taking in because it it can destroy you.

1:01:28 But Matt, uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna let you go after this.

1:01:31 And, and I know that I I did the Optimus question.

1:01:33 If there's if there is, uh,

1:01:35 a historical figure right now that you think people should look

1:01:38 into, you think would be very eye opening, who would it be?

1:01:41 William Jennings Bryan.

1:01:42 Go read his cross of gold speech.

1:01:45 Yes, I know you didn't expect that.

1:01:46 He ran for president multiple times in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

1:01:50 never won, but he definitely fueled uh much of the reforms

1:01:55 we saw uh that we desperately need now too as well.

1:01:58 And he talked about the elites and how uh most of us have been forgotten.

1:02:03 His speech, his cross of gold speech was so good.

1:02:06 He gave this at the 1896 Democratic National Convention

1:02:09 and he was their nominee for president that year.

1:02:11 His speech was so inspiring.

1:02:14 It got people so riled up that they literally

1:02:17 lifted him up and carried him out of the venue

1:02:21 as if he was like a football quarterback

1:02:23 at the end of a game after throwing a winning touchdown.

1:02:25 I'm not even joking.

1:02:26 Uh so yeah, he's definitely a relevant figure in our times.

1:02:31 All right, I'm immediately right after we finish this before I start the show,

1:02:34 I'm immediately going to that.

1:02:35 I'm so fascinated.

1:02:36 Uh Matt, thank you so much for the time, man.

1:02:38 Uh and uh I look forward to the next time uh we have you on.

1:02:41 Thank you so much for having me again.

1:02:42 And that, dear listener, is the end of today's podcast.

1:02:45 And if you're listening to me here at the end

1:02:46 and you're somehow not subscribed, what are you doing?

1:02:48 Definitely subscribe.

1:02:49 I've got weekly conversations that come out usually Tuesday or Thursday.

1:02:52 If you like this one, I definitely recommend you check out one of our last two.

1:02:55 No matter what, let me say thank you for watching.

1:02:56 I love your faces and I'll see you right back here next