Does rejection therapy actually work? - What in the World podcast, BBC World Service

0:00 Have a lovely flight, everybody!

0:04 Here's to making memories.

0:08 Would anyone like any in train entertainment?

0:14 'When the night had come, and the land is dark.' Those videos

0:22 you just saw are people doing rejection therapy?

0:26 Apparently, it's meant to be quite good for you, so I'm gonna try it out.

0:29 Hi.

0:30 Can I come sit down at your table?

0:32 Yeah.

0:33 Hey.

0:33 How's it going?

0:34 How's your day gone?

0:36 Not bad.

0:36 Yeah.

0:37 I'm doing a bit of a social experiment in putting myself out there.

0:41 I was wondering if you were going to say no, actually.

0:44 Someone I'm meeting is in the toilet.

0:45 Oh, really?

0:46 So when she comes back, I'm gonna have to skedaddle.

0:48 Possibly, yes.

0:48 All right, well, thank you very much.

0:50 Thanks for letting me join.

0:51 Going a little bit more bold this time.

0:54 Let's see.

0:55 Hi.

0:55 How are you doing?

0:57 Would you like an orange?

0:59 It's a clementine, technically.

1:00 I always was wondering, clementine, satsuma, tangerine or mandarin?

1:03 How do you know the difference?

1:05 I don't.

1:05 Should we share it?

1:06 Can do.

1:07 Go on, show me your peeling abilities.

1:09 Hiya.

1:09 Good afternoon.

1:10 How are you doing?

1:12 Can I drive your cab?

1:14 Can I?

1:15 Can I get behind the wheel?

1:17 Don't be silly.

1:18 Put me somewhere else to try and face my fears.

1:21 Maybe do a bit of shopping.

1:23 I was wondering, can I have a nap in one of these beds?

1:25 Can I just try it out?

1:26 Yeah.

1:27 How long can I stay here for?

1:29 Like 15-20 minutes.

1:30 Is that all right?

1:31 Are you making the video?

1:32 I am, yeah.

1:33 Do I have to take my shoes off?

1:35 No.

1:35 I can give you a- actually there is a matt there.

1:37 Oh, wow.

1:37 I can actually get in the bed.

1:39 Okay, great.

1:40 Wow.

1:40 I didn't expect that one to be a yes.

1:43 I'm gonna snuggle.

1:51 So this is what that TikTok trend actually feels like.

1:55 And after doing it a couple of times, it wasn't as bad as I thought.

1:59 So yeah, maybe you can build a tolerance for that feeling of being rejected.

2:04 And today that is what we're going to be talking about.

2:06 We're going to look at what rejection therapy

2:08 is and if it can actually help social anxiety.

2:11 I'm Hannah Gelbart and this is What in the World from the BBC World Service.

2:18 I'm in the studio and we have Claudia Hammond,

2:21 a psychologist and BBC presenter, back on the podcast.

2:24 Hey, Claudia.

2:24 Thanks for having me.

2:25 How are you?

2:26 You were very brave.

2:26 Yes.

2:27 I've been doing some really weird things.

2:29 How did you find it?

2:30 The funny thing is, I was most anxious before it actually started.

2:33 So when I was thinking about going and speaking

2:35 to people- what I was going to do,

2:37 what I was going to say, and actually walking up to the first person,

2:40 I felt my adrenaline really, really spiking.

2:42 I'm not a socially anxious person.

2:44 I think I'm really confident.

2:45 But that first thing really scared me.

2:48 And once I'd done one,

2:49 the second one came easier and the third one came even easier.

2:51 And you know, by the fourth time I didn't even mind it.

2:54 Whether they said yes or no.

2:55 Was that because people were so nice to you, really?

2:57 Yeah.

2:57 Most people just wanted a chat, you know, I went and did my little experiments,

3:00 and then they wanted to have a follow up conversation for the next ten minutes.

3:03 People were so friendly and welcoming and I really didn't expect that.

3:07 Yeah, this is what people find really in experiments

3:09 where they get people to talk to strangers deliberately.

3:11 Actually, most of the time people get a really good response.

3:14 It's actually quite rare to get rebuffed.

3:16 Why do you think this trend is gaining so much momentum now?

3:19 Is it because younger people feel that they have more social anxiety?

3:23 Well, I think it's really interesting because obviously we have, you know,

3:26 lived through the pandemic and so some younger people

3:28 have missed time at school or maybe time at college,

3:31 university, and just had a time when they couldn't socialise for a while.

3:35 And so that can make coming back to socialising more difficult.

3:38 What we do know is that there is an increase in perfectionism.

3:41 People are more worried now, younger people,

3:43 about how other people are judging them.

3:45 And so I wonder whether that might

3:47 make people more shy of speaking to strangers,

3:50 worried that the people will, you know, not appraise them in a good way.

3:54 And so doing something like this to try to counter that might

3:58 feel like a positive step to people that they're trying to do something.

4:01 Also, they're fun to watch.

4:03 They are fun to watch and they feed into that algorithm, don't they?

4:05 And I'm guessing that you can take that into your everyday life.

4:08 You can put yourself out there at work.

4:10 You can pitch that idea to your boss or whatever.

4:13 But the stakes do feel a little bit different, don't they?

4:15 If you're putting yourself in that kind

4:17 of situation where you're asking for something

4:19 or going out of your comfort zone in a work environment or a family environment,

4:23 in a relationship, the stakes are a little bit higher if they say no.

4:26 Yes, it is different if you are inviting rejection in that way.

4:29 And people, we hate rejection.

4:31 You know, you can do brain studies where the brain centres

4:34 of the brain are activated that would normally be activated for pain.

4:38 You know, we find social rejection really painful.

4:41 You can just get people to play computer games where they get left out.

4:43 You know, people are throwing the ball across the screen, never throw it to you.

4:47 And we start to show these pain responses because we really,

4:50 really do hate rejection.

4:51 Why is that?

4:52 Why are we so afraid of rejection?

4:53 I think in one way, we have evolved to be very social beings.

4:56 We need to get on with other people.

4:59 Humans do survive by cooperating.

5:01 And actually by the willingness of strangers to do things

5:04 and cooperate with me made me feel much more included.

5:08 Yeah.

5:08 So in fact, you weren't getting rejected really.

5:11 You know, in a way, the idea of this self-help technique,

5:14 you know, it's not a proper form of therapy, it's not been tested.

5:18 But the idea is that you get used to being rejected.

5:21 But actually what you found was that most people were nice to you.

5:24 So you weren't really being rejected.

5:26 You were actually discovering that strangers are really nice,

5:28 which is exactly what the research shows.

5:30 It depends on how mad the idea is.

5:32 Obviously, a taxi driver is not going to let me behind the wheel of his taxi.

5:35 I'm not insured and he doesn't know I'm not going to crash his car.

5:39 So this trend is based on something called exposure therapy.

5:42 Can you talk me through where that comes from and what the point is?

5:46 Yeah.

5:46 So exposure therapy was developed across the 1950s and 60s.

5:49 Sometimes it's called systematic desensitization.

5:52 And the idea is usually gradually you get used to the thing you're afraid of.

5:56 So I don't know if you're afraid of spiders.

5:58 Then you start looking at some pictures of spiders,

6:01 and you are taught at the same time by a psychologist

6:03 to to deal with the stress of that reaction,

6:06 perhaps taught some breathing exercises and very gradually you might

6:09 build up to seeing a real spider, a tiny one, and you might end up in the end,

6:13 maybe holding a tarantula in the end if you get there.

6:16 And this can be done for social anxiety as well.

6:19 And it's all often part of cognitive behavioral therapy,

6:22 the behavioral bit that many people have these days,

6:25 the behavioral bit is going out there and doing these things,

6:27 but it would be done very gradually and with the support of a therapist.

6:31 I started rejection therapy about two years ago,

6:33 and I started it because I'd found

6:35 self-development after going through mental health struggles,

6:38 and I felt like I'd reached a wall on my journey.

6:41 I'd learnt all I could learn at that time in my life.

6:44 And then I came across the concept of rejection therapy, exposure therapy,

6:48 this whole idea of putting yourself

6:50 in uncomfortable situations to overcome your fear.

6:52 And I honestly never expected it to change my life in the way it has.

6:56 And it happened so quickly as well.

6:58 Within three days of me doing rejection therapy,

7:00 I noticed this inner confidence coming out.

7:03 The fear of rejection keeps us in this bubble and it limits us.

7:07 And by doing rejection therapy, I feel like it's opened the doors to life.

7:11 It's popped that bubble and gone, 'Oh, you know,

7:14 being judged and perceived isn't actually as scary as I think.

7:17 Oh, I am in control of how I feel.

7:19 Oh, if someone rejects me,

7:21 I decide how that makes me feel.' That is life changing.

7:25 So, Claudia, what are some of the benefits of being rejected?

7:30 I mean, in a way, I think the benefits are more the benefits

7:32 of speaking to strangers and finding out that most people are nice,

7:35 rather than the hardening yourself to the rejection.

7:38 In a way, if you want to harden yourself to rejection,

7:40 a better way of dealing with it is to ask,

7:43 is there something else going on for people when they're mean to you?

7:46 So if- I don't know, if a friend cancels an evening out and you assume, well,

7:51 this is clearly because they hate me and they're

7:52 always going to hate me and everyone hates me.

7:54 Actually, what's going on for them?

7:56 Are they just exhausted?

7:57 Have they had a really bad day?

7:58 What's going on in their life?

7:59 Or if someone is a bit rude to you offhand in a shop,

8:02 you don't know what's going on for them.

8:05 So I think a more effective way is

8:08 to ask- interrogate why someone has rejected you.

8:11 So that's kind of developing empathy,

8:13 putting yourself in their shoes and thinking

8:15 about what might be going on for them.

8:16 And to think it's not all about us.

8:17 Yeah.

8:18 It's not always about us.

8:18 It really isn't.

8:19 I'm so guilty of that.

8:20 I'm sure we all are.

8:22 Obviously, I did my experiment here in London, in the UK,

8:24 and we've got one very well known set of social rules.

8:27 We tend to be quite cold, particularly in big cities, I think.

8:30 But this is different in different parts of the world.

8:32 Other cultures are so much warmer when

8:34 it comes to to making conversation with strangers.

8:36 Yeah, there are real variations around the world in kind of what

8:40 the social rules are about when you do and don't talk to strangers.

8:43 So it will really depend on where you live and that you kind

8:47 of need to get it right for the place that you live in.

8:49 And I can remember, you know, coming back from travelling,

8:52 I was traveling around Australia and just got

8:53 used to chatting to everybody and then getting back

8:55 on the tube in London and suddenly chatting to everybody

8:58 and realising people aren't necessarily liking this, you know,

9:01 I'm not backpacking now.

9:02 This is a kind of different situation.

9:04 So you do need to tailor it to your situation.

9:06 I want to bring it back to some

9:08 of the weirder experiments that we have been seeing on TikTok,

9:12 on Instagram, regarding rejection therapy in this trend and the ethics really,

9:18 of involving strangers in this kind of experiments.

9:20 You are asking people to do things,

9:22 you're either filming yourself or sometimes you're filming them as well.

9:25 Does the fact that it's being filmed change the outcome of the experiments?

9:29 And is it okay to do this kind of thing with strangers?

9:32 Yeah, I think there are real ethical issues around it

9:34 because particularly if the person is being filmed as well,

9:36 and as you say, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

9:38 That makes them feel uncomfortable.

9:40 But even just knowing the situation is being

9:42 filmed might make people feel uncomfortable and suspicious.

9:45 And also, we don't kind of want to stop people being nice to people.

9:48 And if you realise that actually this was all just kind of done for a laugh,

9:53 then people may feel it was slightly at their expense and- They might feel used.

9:57 They might feel used and then not be as nice

9:59 to someone who really does need some help the next time.

10:03 So I think do it, you know, warily, you know, and think of, again, empathy.

10:07 It's about thinking of how this might be

10:09 taken by the other person at the same time.

10:11 So maybe do it, but don't film it.

10:14 Don't just farm it for content, as it were.

10:17 Thank you so much, Claudia.

10:18 Thanks for having me.

10:19 Before I go, I want to shout out some

10:21 of the comments that we have been getting on our YouTube channel.

10:24 So we did an episode about how much talc is

10:26 in our makeup and cosmetics and Rose said that after watching this podcast,

10:30 I checked the components of my beauty products.

10:32 I believe we should be responsible for our health.

10:35 And we got this, from Stella, she asked,

10:38 do all product descriptions explicitly state that they contain talc?

10:42 And I looked into this.

10:44 It does depend what country you're in, but cosmetic regulations mostly

10:48 do require talc to be listed in the ingredients if it's present.

10:52 So I hope that that helps to answer your question.

10:54 And if you have tried rejection therapy,

10:56 if you think it's a good idea or a bad idea or something that you would never,

11:00 ever, ever put yourself up for, please do let us know in the comments.

11:03 Also, get in touch with us on Instagram.

11:06 Our handle is at @bbcwhatintheworld.

11:08 I'm Hannah, this is What in the World

11:11 from the BBC World Service and we'll see you next time.