How the war is boosting Ukraine's demand for renewables | Living Planet Podcast

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0:39 I wouldn't say it was that we were scared.

0:42 Uh, it was that we were terrified of the prospects of that happening.

0:47 It takes a lot to scare Sha Bernie.

0:50 After 35 years as a nuclear specialist with Greenpeace,

0:54 the Burley Scotsman has worked in some of the most radioactive places on Earth.

1:00 The scariest point in terms of nuclear was in 2024, autumn 2024.

1:07 Sha is talking about Ukraine where he now spends most of the year.

1:11 On August 26th, Russia starts firing more than 200 missiles

1:15 and drones in one of the largest aerial attacks of the war.

1:19 It systematically pounds energy infrastructure,

1:22 hitting gas and coal fired plants, the grid, and transformers.

1:27 Around 8 million homes lose power.

1:33 For the second time in 2 weeks,

1:34 Russia launched a nationwide strike against Ukraine's energy grid, seen here.

1:39 Authorities say emergency power outages are

1:42 in place nationwide, leaving hundreds of

1:45 residents in Ukraine's capital, Keefe, are woken up by air raid sirens.

1:49 Russia has been trying to Ukraine's energy system

1:52 since it invaded the neighboring country in February 2022.

1:56 But this is different, says Sha,

1:58 because the Russians started targeting electrical substations.

2:02 A nuclear plant that's connected to the grid

2:05 requires uh what's called grid stability.

2:09 And it's the substations that keep power flowing in and out.

2:13 Uh there's about 10 of them that are critical to nuclear plant safety.

2:18 But during the Russian attack, the grid begins to buckle.

2:21 Four reactors disconnect.

2:23 Plant operators power one down completely.

2:27 you were looking at a scenario that really had

2:30 never been seen in the world before where multiple reactors

2:34 would be forced to shut down because that instability

2:38 the the safest option is to shut down the nuclear reactor.

2:42 And why is that?

2:43 If you lose electrical power from the grid,

2:46 it's called a loss of off-site power, a loop.

2:50 You need to go to your own electricity supply on the plant itself.

2:55 And in the first instance, that's emergency diesel generators.

2:59 That needs to happen within minutes.

3:01 So, electricity is delivered to the water pumps,

3:04 keeping the extremely hot reactor and spent fuel cool.

3:08 But those enormous generators have maybe 7 to 10 days of fuel.

3:13 Restarting a reactor takes far more power than they can provide.

3:17 It has to come from the grid.

3:18 If that power isn't restored and fuel runs out or a generator breaks down,

3:24 cooling systems fail.

3:25 Within hours, water boils away, exposing the core.

3:30 Temperatures climb to around 2,700° C.

3:34 That's the boiling point of steel.

3:36 The fuel melts, otherwise known as a core meltdown.

3:42 I don't really get scared, but that was the really serious moment when you go,

3:47 okay, Ukraine, Russia knows that Ukraine is faced with this horrendous dilemma.

3:55 Shut down the reactors before it's too late or keep operating

4:00 and risk not just one reactor uh not even one nuclear power plant,

4:06 but multiple reactor failures across Ukraine.

4:10 So multiple Fukushima radologically speaking potentially multiple Chernobyl.

4:20 That was the worst case scenario.

4:23 But the plants regained offsite power.

4:26 The grid stabilized and plant operators were able to restart the reactors.

4:31 But the risk hasn't gone away.

4:33 Ukraine says Russia is still trying to knock their nuclear plants offline.

4:38 plants that now provide more than half of the country's electricity.

4:42 And the UN's nuclear watchdog,

4:44 the International Atomic Energy Agency, has called the situation

4:48 the world's biggest threat to nuclear safety.

4:53 This has left some Ukrainians questioning

4:56 the vulnerability of a highly centralized energy system

4:59 and whether nuclear power can ever be truly safe in a time of war.

5:04 Ukraine knows better than most what a nuclear disaster means.

5:08 It's now clear that the Soviet Union has suffered one

5:11 of the worst disasters in the history of nuclear power.

5:14 Massive quantities of radiation have apparently been released

5:18 in an accident at the Chernobbile power station.

5:21 On the 26th of April 1986,

5:23 a reactor at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant exploded,

5:27 sending radioactive material across Europe.

5:30 Hundreds of thousands of people were forced to leave their homes.

5:33 many never to return.

5:35 It remains the world's worst nuclear disaster.

5:38 And we have to ask ourselves whether it is reasonable to rely

5:43 so heavily on technologies where the consequences of failure are so high,

5:49 especially in such unstable condition as war.

5:53 I'm Neil King and this is Living Planet.

5:55 Russia's attacks on Ukraine's power grid have pushed the country's energy system

5:59 to the edge and its nuclear plants to the brink of disaster.

6:03 We'll hear how Ukraine is fighting

6:05 back with an unexpected weapon, renewable energy.

6:09 Could building out solar and wind essentially make Ukraine and Europe safer?

6:14 Stay with us.

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6:21 but some questions take a little bit more time to sit with.

6:24 Green Frequency is a new Earth radio show,

6:27 a space to follow the ideas shaping how we understand this planet.

6:30 From oceansing carbon to what it actually takes to build environmental policy,

6:34 we explore the science and the systems around it

6:37 with the people working at the center of it all.

6:39 Thoughtful conversations with entry-level nuance and a clearer pathway forward.

6:44 Tune in to Green Frequency Earth Radio wherever you're listening to this now.

6:55 One of the reasons that worstc case scenario Shaun Bernie described hasn't

6:59 happened is the rapid response of nuclear plant workers under immense pressure.

7:04 Another is the people keeping the grid alive.

7:07 the unbelievable work of the Ukraine uh grid operators,

7:11 Ukraine Argo uh personnel from uh

7:16 companies like DTEK maintaining the electricity

7:19 system despite being under assault uh constantly every night and you

7:25 know engineers have died as a direct result of working at these electrical

7:30 stations trying to get them repaired and then being hit again.

7:33 The most obvious way to reduce the danger

7:36 would be for Russia to stop targeting the grid.

7:38 But as long as those attacks continue, Ukraine is being forced to adapt.

7:43 More than half of the country's electricity

7:45 generation capacity has been damaged or destroyed.

7:49 And the Saparicha nuclear power plant,

7:51 once supplying a quarter of Ukraine's electricity,

7:54 remains under Russian control.

7:57 The targeting of big thermal power plants and the centralized grid

8:01 has been a kind of quite stark um

8:05 revelation of the vulnerability of concentrated um energy infrastructure.

8:12 So Russia has fairly brutally targeted um

8:16 Ukraine's um energy infrastructure across the board.

8:19 And what they found is that targeting um thermal power plants,

8:24 what we'd sort of say is conventional power plants.

8:26 So these could be um nuclear, coal,

8:29 gas and so on where there's they generate a large quantity of electricity.

8:34 That is uh relatively effective way to cause

8:39 a lot of damage with relatively few missiles.

8:43 That's Chris Elliot.

8:45 I'm a research fellow in the environment society center at Cham House.

8:48 Um, I work on geopolitics, trade, climate change, and the energy transition.

8:54 Chris says Ukraine isn't just rebuilding,

8:56 it's rethinking how its energy system works.

8:59 And what they found is that um, solar, wind,

9:03 and batteries has tended to be the most effective,

9:07 the fastest, and the most kind of secure way of doing that.

9:11 Ukraine's largest private energy company, DTEK,

9:14 ran um whole fleet of mainly coali power plants.

9:18 um prior to the invasion.

9:19 But as they've been systematically attacked

9:21 and DTEK has been trying to repair them,

9:24 what they've also found themselves doing is bringing in everinccreasing

9:27 quantities of wind and solar and batteries um because they

9:32 have found that they tend to be harder to attack

9:36 uh and less likely to be targeted by the Russians.

9:40 It's not just harder, but also less economical to target smaller

9:44 and more spread out renewable sources, says Chris.

9:47 I think one statistic that they've cited is that it takes one

9:51 particular missile to take out really a 250 megawatt um say coal cap

9:58 coal fired power station but it would take 40 times that amount

10:02 of missiles to take out um the equivalent capacity of wind power generation.

10:09 And wind and solar are cheap and quicker to install

10:12 and quicker to repair than a badly damaged coal plant.

10:17 And unlike a coal plant, if a drone takes out a solar panel,

10:21 the lights don't all go out.

10:23 So, for example, if there is a solar park,

10:26 if there is damage to that, it doesn't necessarily need

10:29 to take everything out because you could swap new panels in.

10:32 Big energy companies and Ukrainian NOS's have all

10:36 been working to bring more green power online.

10:39 In 2025, about 56% of the country's electricity generation came from nuclear.

10:45 Coal made up 14% and renewables including hydro power,

10:49 solar and wind came in at around 21%.

10:52 Jumping from 12% before the invasion.

10:55 Ukraine has been rolling out smallcale decentralized power

10:59 particularly in frontline and high-risk regions to make

11:02 the grid harder to knock out and ensure

11:05 a stable electricity supply to people and businesses.

11:08 Some of that is smaller gas plants, but a lot of solar is going up on rooftops.

11:14 municipal buildings, hospitals, and schools.

11:17 In 2025 alone, Ukraine installed enough to power over a million homes.

11:23 The goal now is to nearly double that within 4 years.

11:27 And the people rolling all that out are doing it under fire.

11:36 Fortunately, everything was quiet.

11:37 We only see the military aircraft monitoring the sky.

11:42 It's March 2026.

11:45 25-year-old Lena Kondrauk is standing in the cold

11:49 in total darkness in the middle of a field

11:52 somewhere between Ukraine's capital Kev and a town

11:55 called Mikolai about 60 km from the front line.

12:00 She looks up.

12:02 I hadn't seen such sty skyh for the long time.

12:06 Of course, uh I thought that probably I would

12:09 see such sky in the mountain at my vacation, but it still was really beautiful.

12:15 Lena is standing in this field appreciating the stars because an air

12:19 raid alarm sounded as the train she was on raced through the darkness.

12:24 All the passengers have to disembark.

12:26 It's a Russian attack.

12:27 Passenger trains are now a target.

12:30 We know about that.

12:31 we know about these risks and our conversation

12:35 and dark humor made it lighter because for example every

12:39 uh each evocation I asked myself um it would

12:43 be better uh to burn alive or freeze to death.

12:48 Uh because that carriage train carriage burns down completely in 9 minutes only.

12:54 And if you outside in 0° weather for over uh an hour,

12:59 no matter how warmly you dressed, you start to freeze.

13:03 And we spent about 2 hours outside uh to talk about this.

13:09 And fortunately, we didn't have answer for this question.

13:12 Still, it's the kind of dark humor Lena says

13:15 helps Ukrainians deal with the reality of war.

13:18 When the air raid is over, they board the train again and arrive safely

13:22 at Mikollay for the opening of a solar power plant.

13:29 Lena makes this journey about once a month.

13:32 She works for the Ukrainian NGO Eco Club,

13:35 helping bring solar power and battery storage to communities across the country.

13:40 The trip takes around 13 hours if it isn't interrupted by air raids.

13:47 Lena is the youngest in her family.

13:50 Yes.

13:50 On 30 minutes.

13:52 She's got a twin brother who she says doesn't really understand her job.

13:57 And they still think that I am just

13:59 uh sitting with my laptops and doing something.

14:03 Lena joined Eco Club at 18 after her older sister encouraged her to volunteer.

14:08 I didn't have like any expectation on it uh because

14:13 uh I um have started to study at the university.

14:18 She thought she would become an engineer, steady work, well paid.

14:22 But when she started volunteering, she saw

14:24 how these people love this work and what the impact of this work.

14:30 I uh understood that uh I want uh to have

14:35 a job with real social impact at the world.

14:39 Just before the pandemic, she takes on a role as an analyst.

14:43 At that point, Eco Club is focused on advocacy pushing for renewable energy.

14:48 Then February 24th, 2022, reports of explosions across Ukraine.

14:58 We are beginning this morning with the breaking news of a fullscale

15:01 invasion of Ukraine that began overnight after Russian President Vladimir.

15:06 I was also scared and shocked because I

15:08 didn't believe that it can happen uh in 2022.

15:13 I didn't believe the news that all said that it will happen.

15:17 The invasion changes everything.

15:19 The team pivots first to humanitarian aid then

15:23 as blackouts spread across the country to energy.

15:26 We have started this campaign called Solar Aid for Ukraine because

15:30 we see that Russia started to shell the energy infrastructure for Ukrainians.

15:37 The constant loud were of diesel generators are now a familiar sound.

15:42 They're not only noisy but polluting and the fuel

15:45 needed to run them keeps getting more expensive.

15:48 Eco Club and its largely European donors want

15:51 to replace those with solar and batteries and Lena

15:54 is asked to step up as project manager

15:57 getting those renewable energy projects off the ground.

16:00 She's just 21.

16:02 Actually, uh I was really scared to take

16:05 this responsibility because I wasn't sure that I can.

16:09 I agreed for this offer because of the war because

16:12 I understand that uh for example I can die tomorrow.

16:21 It's a stark realization for someone so young.

16:25 But like so many Ukrainians, she has learned to live with the knowledge

16:28 that everything can change in a moment.

16:31 She's built routines to hold on to morning

16:34 runs followed by long breakfasts with coffee.

16:37 because uh if I did if I doing that I

16:41 feel this stability because I don't have stability at anyone

16:46 in my life and even if I have like um

16:50 plan for a year for all my projects at work

16:54 I see that in the end of the year all

16:56 my plans was not as I planned I need to create

17:01 new way for example to do other activities or there

17:05 is a shale or some damage I need to replace.

17:10 And uh it's really uh it's really hard,

17:12 but it's lessons learned for everyone in Ukraine is you should to adapt.

17:22 Since then, Lena has helped bring nearly

17:24 90 solar power systems online across Ukraine.

17:27 Traveling through a country at war wasn't easy at first.

17:31 She lives in Rivet in the west, far from the front.

17:34 Her first trip to Mikolif just 60 kilometers from the fighting was daunting.

17:40 I've never been in Mikolai before the war.

17:43 I was uh checked like the all information

17:47 how far away Mollay from the front line,

17:49 how often air alarms happened,

17:52 how often shing in it and uh actually it's only 60

17:57 km from front line and I was really scared to go there.

18:04 While Lena was there, the city was shelled by the Russians.

18:08 There is no electricity and I thought that I didn't

18:13 want to come back to the city because I am scary.

18:15 I have the anxiety about it.

18:17 But Lena did go back.

18:19 I met a lot of kind people in my life and I

18:23 see how the people even near the front lines can live.

18:28 They uh they continue to work.

18:31 They continue to have the normal weekend.

18:33 They continue to have the dreams and plan their life in the future.

18:37 And they teach that it's even during such uh war time,

18:43 it's still possible to find a happy moments in your life and continue it.

18:54 In Mikollay, Lena says solar and batteries are

18:57 helping utilities to keep water flowing during blackouts

19:00 and ensure hospitals can keep caring for patients

19:03 and doing surgeries even when the grid goes down.

19:07 Sometimes blackouts can last up to 16 hours and locals will turn up

19:11 at the facilities that have solar to charge their phones and in winter get warm.

19:17 The important point that renewable energy in Ukraine

19:20 is not about the climate and sustainability.

19:23 It's about surviving now because we see uh

19:27 how the water utilities and hospitals need this electricity

19:31 during the power outages and uh for each

19:34 Ukrainians it's about the access to the basic needs.

19:39 One project particularly close to her heart brought solar power

19:42 to a longstay care home for women with mental health and neurological issues.

19:47 Before the solar panels, staff were waking up at 4:00 a.m.

19:51 to get breakfast ready before the power cuts.

19:54 Blackouts shaped the entire day.

19:56 Often no hot meals, no TV, sometimes no electricity at all.

20:01 And after that, they was happy because they have like access to everything.

20:06 They can watch TV in every hours of day when when they want to do it.

20:12 and it was really grateful and happy to see uh the smiles of their faces.

20:19 Lena says the solar plant has also helped the home save money to put

20:22 into improving conditions for the people living there

20:25 who are often overlooked by the Ukrainian government.

20:28 Personally uh this project discovered for me

20:31 that I thought that I didn't uh and I am not empathetic person but I am because

20:39 every time when I visit this facility I

20:42 was uh I wanted to give everything that I want and help them as my best

20:49 because I see how these people are vulnerable and how they need our help of it.

21:02 In January 2026 alone,

21:04 Russia fired more than 6,000 attack drones, 5,500 aerial bombs,

21:10 and 158 missiles at Ukrainian infrastructure,

21:14 repeatedly targeting thermal power plants,

21:17 electricity substations, and district heating facilities.

21:21 Ukrainians are already dreading the next winter.

21:24 The last one was the harshest in 16

21:26 years with temperatures dropping to minus21° C.

21:31 Things were particularly bad on the front lines where

21:34 families live in damaged homes with unreliable heating and electricity.

21:38 Even in Rivener in her office, Lena felt it.

21:42 Usually we spent a day at the office with winter coat on ourselves with hats,

21:48 with hat, and even uh with gloves because it was really cold.

21:53 and not only outside but also inside.

21:56 Lena also lives with blackouts,

21:58 though not as frequently as in other parts of the country.

22:01 Often outages are scheduled and she plans her day accordingly,

22:05 having important meetings and doing work around those.

22:09 Last winter, some colleagues in other parts of Ukraine had to work

22:13 in the evening or even in the night because it's

22:16 only the time when they have the electricity to do it.

22:19 Aside from changes to her workday,

22:22 Lena says her reading habits have significantly improved.

22:25 And talking about the Netflix,

22:27 I download series over movies for my phone and watching later.

22:33 And I buy additional power banks for home.

22:38 I try to cook uh food in a few days, not only for one day.

22:43 I also started to often visit for example my family,

22:47 my parents at the home because they have electricity and like

22:50 hi mom I will visit you today for the dinner.

22:54 For Ukrainians the priority is simple.

22:57 Keep the lights and heat on.

22:59 That has meant keeping nuclear plants

23:01 running throughout the war despite the risks.

23:04 So far they've operated without major incident.

23:07 Without them, experts say Ukraine would be in a far worse position

23:11 considering how much of its fossil fuel plants have been knocked offline.

23:15 But we see that, for example,

23:17 solar power can't cover uh electricity demand in the winter.

23:23 They can help uh in the summertime a lot, but in the winter,

23:26 we should find another way to help to survive uh communal facilities in Ukraine.

23:33 Alongside expanding renewables,

23:35 Ukraine is also planning at least nine new nuclear reactors.

23:40 Some being built in the country's west and others in the south,

23:43 partly to compensate for the loss of the Saparicha plant occupied by Russia.

23:48 That would bring around 11.25 gawatt online.

23:52 The cost of one reactor would be at least 5 billion.

23:57 In a recent survey, 80% of Ukrainians supported

24:00 the nuclear plans and 95% backed renewables expansion.

24:10 So, is the lesson no nuclear in the future energy mix?

24:14 It depends on who you ask.

24:15 Lena and Greenpeace's Shaun Bernie say

24:18 countries including Ukraine should concentrate on expanding

24:21 solar and wind with industrial and smallcale

24:24 battery storage as much as they can.

24:27 And for me it's not of course saying that nuclear

24:30 energy is bad because even now a part of energy system

24:34 depends on the nuclear power in Ukraine but it clearly shows

24:39 uh the importance of diversification and decentralization of energy in Ukraine.

24:45 But at the same time, pretty much all the G7,

24:48 that's Germany, France, Canada, the US, Japan, Italy,

24:51 and the UK are saying, "We need to build nuclear plants." Um,

24:56 but they also made a statement, I guess,

24:59 cuz they're not called out by people saying, "Hang on a second.

25:02 You're saying let's build lots of nuclear." But on the other hand,

25:04 you're saying because of the lessons of Ukraine, we need to decentralize.

25:08 Okay.

25:09 What one do you really believe?

25:12 My own sense is that the energy transition it's

25:17 you know that that train has already left the station.

25:20 We're moving towards a massive roll out even greater roll

25:24 out of renewable energy economics basically that wins on this.

25:31 In the short term they also want tougher sanctions on Russia's

25:34 nuclear industry similar to ones for oil, gas and coal.

25:38 Countries like Hungary and Slovakia still buy uranium from Rosatom,

25:43 the state company that occupies nuclear power plant Saparichia.

25:47 They say banning it would threaten their energy security.

25:50 The EU is looking for alternatives, but has no firm timeline.

26:01 Chris has been looking at what others can

26:03 learn from Ukraine when it comes to energy resilience.

26:07 For him, the main lessons from Russia's war in Ukraine when it comes to energy,

26:11 lessons that the European Union is also paying

26:13 attention to is a better geographical spread of infrastructure.

26:18 And yeah, that is basically um agnostic of the the power generation source.

26:22 While nuclear and fossil fuel plants are still

26:25 doing a lot of heavy lifting in Ukraine, diversifying energy supply with a lot

26:29 of renewables and storage is another big lesson.

26:33 the sort of initial impetus between um behind um rolling out renewable

26:37 energy and electrification was you know

26:40 tackling climate change by reducing greenhouse

26:42 gas emissions which is really important still but at the same time

26:45 sort of post the Russian invasion of Ukraine there was a you know

26:48 a hu in response to that a huge deployment of renewables as Europe

26:52 realized we need to be less reliant on gas uh you know

26:56 it's a very it's a really fossil fuel poor continent and it

27:00 was never going to have anywhere near enough to meet its your needs.

27:08 Global instability, including oil price hikes linked

27:11 to conflict in the Strait of Hormuz,

27:13 could only sharpen Europe's desire to move away from fossil

27:16 fuel imports and gain more energy independence through decarbonizing.

27:22 Another lesson is making sure you've got the right components.

27:25 You've got stockpiles of these components.

27:27 That's not things like I wouldn't say

27:28 that's things like stockpiling or critical minerals.

27:32 It's more like the the, you know,

27:33 the the vital parts of your system that keep everything turned on.

27:37 And those components should all be standardized for easy and quick replacement,

27:42 meaning restoration takes days instead of weeks.

27:45 But back to the question, do we need nuclear?

27:49 Chris is very optimistic about where renewables are headed and how fast.

27:53 Batteries are getting cheaper and advances are

27:56 being made in the duration of long-term storage.

27:59 grids just need building out and adapting.

28:02 That's the big bottleneck.

28:04 His view is there's this narrative of scarcity with um renewables.

28:08 At the moment, there's not going to be enough.

28:10 Actually, we're not too far away from there being too much on some levels.

28:15 For its part, Ukraine wants to phase out coal by 2035

28:19 and to reach 27% renewables in final energy consumption by 2030.

28:24 On nuclear, Chris is pragmatic rather than prescriptive.

28:28 Ukraine is dependent on it as is France which

28:31 has over 50 reactors and that's not changing soon.

28:35 I'm not sure I would necessarily say we should

28:37 you know that you know one or the other

28:38 government should invest tens of billions in a new

28:41 nuclear plant rather than renewables and batteries.

28:45 I think you'd have to think very carefully about that.

28:48 Um but I don't I do think that it's part of the European

28:53 energy mix at the moment and I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

28:57 You just need to be quite careful

28:58 about thinking it can deliver all these benefits.

29:01 And I think there is potentially an argument that you

29:05 and this has been sort of shown with the Ukraine experience.

29:07 You do want to have some diversity.

29:09 Chris says there's still debate in energy systems modeling.

29:13 Some scenarios get to 100% renewables, others closer to 90%.

29:19 But he thinks the real point is often missed.

29:22 There's no silver bullet.

29:24 I mean, it's it's it's actually a really interesting exercise,

29:26 but ultimately you just want to build out as much low carbon as you can

29:30 and you want to make it as secure as you can while you're doing it.

29:34 So, basically trying to derisk the dangers of running nuclear power in a war,

29:38 moving away from buying nuclear fuel from Rosatom

29:41 and also bolstering your renewables against cyber attacks, for example.

29:45 It's awful, but it's been it's almost been a laboratory of what can happen.

29:50 And I think it's really important that Europe and and other countries

29:56 as well do draw the right lessons because otherwise it's it's almost an insult.

30:01 It's it's like they've gone through this terrible experience.

30:05 They're continuing to go through it.

30:06 They've shown amazing sort of ingenuity at rebuilding

30:10 fast and it's taught us a lot about what's vulnerable and what you need

30:13 to consider and what could be targeted.

30:15 It's actually really really important that Europe

30:18 does take these lessons on board.

30:24 Lena says she's glad she was born long after Chernobyl,

30:28 even as she lives through a different kind of disaster in Ukraine.

30:32 One she doesn't expect to end soon.

30:36 Unfortunately, in this question, I am a pessimist.

30:40 But Lena and others in Ukraine are looking to what happens after the war.

30:44 I still uh want to live there.

30:46 I still want to help uh my country.

30:49 I still want to continue my work at the Eco Club.

30:52 And I still think that even after the war and after our victory,

30:58 there would be even more work uh compared to now because we

31:03 have to rebuild country and rebuild it in greener and uh better way.

31:16 This episode of Living Planet was researched and produced by Jennifer Collins.

31:21 It was edited and soundscaped by me, Neil King.

31:24 Our sound engineer was Zeed Slayman.

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