What Happens When You Refuse to Stay Quiet — SF712

0:01 Hello there you awakening wonders.

0:02 Thanks for joining me today for stay free with Russell Brand.

0:04 On the show we've got Carrie Pian.

0:06 You may have seen her before in a bunch of stuff.

0:08 She's an outspoken Christian Catholic specifically

0:11 who's been cancelled a couple of times.

0:12 Once for her views on samesex marriage and now she's well

0:16 outspoken on Apac and Israel and she's really willing to go there.

0:23 Um in addition to this conversation I want to let you know

0:26 that this book how to become Christian in seven days is out now.

0:29 May take 50 years of sin and serious fuckups.

0:33 Oh no, I swear to get started.

0:35 See, I'm still doing it.

0:36 Click the link in the description.

0:37 Get your copy now.

0:40 We're going to go straight to this interview.

0:42 If you're watching us anywhere other than Rumble or Rumble Premium,

0:44 get Rumble Premium now and join us over here

0:46 on a platform that supports us and supports free speech in general.

0:50 And that's no small thing these days.

0:52 Here's me and Carrie Pier.

0:53 And check it out.

0:56 Carrie, thanks very much for joining us.

0:58 It's really lovely to speak to someone who's in faith right now.

1:02 Thank you for having me.

1:04 You dealt with like a lot of cont controversy.

1:06 You've been cancelled.

1:07 You've dealt with a lot of intensity.

1:10 [gasps] What do you [snorts] I suppose that means that we're

1:13 in right in that um we're in Romans 13, aren't we?

1:17 Like that we kind of we're meant to obey the state

1:20 and the system unless the state

1:22 and the system conflicts directly with following Christ.

1:27 that was preached on at the church I go to this past weekend to quote the name

1:33 of one of my favorite podcasts um like

1:36 and I said to the pastor afterwards don't you think

1:39 our whole culture exists in that margin right now

1:42 almost the whole culture is except for where it

1:46 doesn't except where it contradicts the teachings of Christ

1:50 or the the the the word of God say So,

1:57 like it sounds like your life and your walk has brought you into odds

2:01 with that and I'm starting to feel that maybe

2:03 that's going to be part of my path.

2:06 So, where do you see that as most significant?

2:09 And do you agree with that premise?

2:12 Yeah.

2:12 Um, you know, I've been in this fight for almost 20 years now.

2:16 You know, I don't think a lot of people uh remember,

2:18 but I was Miss California in 2009.

2:22 And I dared to say that my opinion is u I didn't believe

2:27 in gay marriage and I said I believe marriage is one man and one woman.

2:31 And obviously when you do that at a large scale

2:35 on a public platform in front of millions of people,

2:39 um I think that was a big test for me.

2:41 And I think that I passed the test in the Lord's eyes obviously,

2:44 but I was only 21 years old.

2:46 So Donald Trump owned the pageant and that was

2:50 when it start that I was really Russell.

2:52 I was really one of the first to be cancelled.

2:54 And so I say now, you ain't cool

2:57 unless you're cancelled because I've been cancelled twice now.

3:01 And I'll tell you what,

3:02 it it's I take it as a badge of honor because it means that I'm actually doing

3:05 something right and it means that I'm actually standing

3:07 against evil um when they try to cancel you.

3:10 But um it's been it's been very difficult.

3:13 I'll be honest.

3:13 It's been it's been hard.

3:14 And um you know, I was canceled at 21 and now I'm 38 years

3:18 old and I'm a mom and a wife and um but I'm still standing.

3:22 I'm still I'm still fighting and I I'll never give up.

3:26 One of my teachers said that when they were doing like police work,

3:29 when they came out of a hot situation,

3:31 they'd say to each other, "We're still alive." Okay, we're still alive.

3:34 You're alive, right?

3:35 I'm alive.

3:36 [laughter] I think that's how we got to do it.

3:37 Like I really feel like that these days that I'm

3:39 in a spiritual war and I reckon I'm not doing it perfectly.

3:43 I can I can sort of really see my errors.

3:45 I can see my errors real clearly.

3:47 I'm making a loss.

3:48 Um I wonder then what was the what was the next time that you were cancelled?

3:53 Ask Carrie.

3:58 So this the next time I was canceled was pretty recent.

4:01 So I served on the religious liberty commission.

4:03 So, I thought that I was being um

4:05 selected to protect religious freedom here in America.

4:09 Um and I spoke out against the definition of uh anti-semitism.

4:16 So, the hearing was on anti-semitism.

4:18 And I just couldn't continue until we define um

4:22 and really who gets to define the word anti-semitism?

4:27 And so, I was pushing back and I said, is anti-Zionism anti-semitism?

4:32 which we all know Zionism, it's a political ideology.

4:36 I have every right not to be a Zionist.

4:38 I'm not a Zionist.

4:39 Um, and they said, "Yes, if you're an anti-Zionist, you're a hateful bigot.

4:45 You are an anti-semite.

4:47 You're a Jew hater." Um,

4:49 and so it's just I've been down this road before, Russell.

4:51 I'm sure you've, you know, recently been down this road, too.

4:54 It's like they try to um put you in this box and they

4:58 try to just slam the door and close it and then cancel you,

5:01 smear you, label you, and throw away the key.

5:04 And I am not going to allow that to happen.

5:07 So, I'm pushing back and I'm saying I am not a hater of any kind.

5:11 I I don't even entertain that idea.

5:13 As a Christian, as a Catholic, I love all people,

5:16 but I will tell you right now, I do not support the political state of Israel.

5:20 And that does not make me a Jew hater.

5:22 That makes me a uh proud pro-life Catholic.

5:26 And we have a duty, if we call ourselves Christians,

5:28 to speak out against the evil that we're seeing in Israel

5:32 and the genocide that they are committing against the Palestinians.

5:36 Right.

5:37 You live then in that area that I've like the one

5:40 thing that I read in the Bible that I thought, well,

5:42 I'd like to take that out was when I

5:45 got to Romans 13 when it was saying stuff like, you know, obey the government.

5:50 And I was like, I don't like this.

5:51 I don't like this at all.

5:52 Like, and you know, and I've been trying to find loopholes ever since.

5:56 Now, one of the good loopholes I found was

5:58 like that Paul was likely in chains when he

6:01 wrote it and certainly spent a lot of time

6:03 in chains and but see what you're saying there.

6:08 Do you find it hard to in both of those issues that you've

6:13 that have led to controversy in your life and challenges in your life?

6:18 And I reckon in a sense I applaud your bravery even though I've

6:22 got a lot of questions to ask when it comes to um sexual conduct.

6:26 Say like I'm really trying to work that out at the moment cuz

6:30 I feel like there's so much stuff about sexual immorality and I really am

6:35 learning a great deal about it right and I I want to stay

6:39 in a place of love when talking

6:40 about other people's identity and other people's,

6:43 you know, their identity in Christ fundamentally.

6:45 That's what I sort of want to believe in mostly.

6:48 And and and prioritizing my own um duty to be non-judgmental over

6:54 other people's fallenness because I know I've got enough fallenness of my own.

6:58 That's for sure.

6:59 We all do.

6:59 Yeah, we all do.

7:01 And so I wonder how you managed

7:02 that in the that in the first issue, the 2009 issue.

7:06 And then when it comes to I really liked what you said the political

7:09 state of Israel because I suppose one of the great challenges of talking

7:14 about politics these days is the conflation

7:16 of a political entity with a religious entity a historical and a theological

7:22 entity with a contemporary militarily expansionist entity.

7:27 all of those.

7:27 There's a lot of questions to be asked, but for you,

7:31 you were on a kind of is it like it

7:33 was a free speech governmental White House committee that was like,

7:36 "We've all got to make sure we're committed to free speech." And then you

7:39 somehow surely knowing in your half heart

7:42 she was stepping in a difficult terrain said,

7:44 "I'd like to challenge you all on what you

7:46 mean by anti-semitism." Is that how your current challenge began?

7:51 Yeah, you know, I was selected by President Donald J.

7:53 Trump and he selected me along with 12 other incredible um you

7:58 know very important people on this commission and I had a duty

8:03 I had a duty to stand up for uh people of not

8:06 only of my faith but people of all faiths and so

8:08 I wasn't going to sit there and allow them to define

8:13 a word that well really they didn't want to define the word

8:17 they just said if you are against the political state of Israel

8:21 you're a Jew hater and that should have been the story.

8:24 I think everyone should have been speaking out against that.

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9:52 Obviously, that's crazy.

9:53 That's insane that you would say if you're

9:55 that'd be like saying if you're against MAGA,

9:58 then you're, you know, an anti-Christian.

10:00 I mean, it doesn't even make sense.

10:02 But that's the box that's the box that they want to put you in.

10:05 And so they want to make it so that if you're critical of the state of Israel,

10:09 you therefore are now a hater a hater of Jewish people.

10:13 And I reject that.

10:14 In fact, I requested four Jewish American um witnesses to speak at that hearing.

10:19 One of them, Norm Norm Finkelstein,

10:21 which who better than him um to speak on this on this matter of anti-semitism.

10:26 I even requested a Jewish rabbi who he and I have become great friends.

10:30 In fact, he came out recently and said,

10:32 "I've been fighting against Zionism for 40 years.

10:35 What does that make me?

10:36 A rabbi is now an anti-semite?" And I read his statement from the stage,

10:40 and the people speaking that day,

10:42 they said, "Yes, that this Jewish rabbi is an anti-semite." So,

10:46 that's where this is going.

10:47 It's it's crazy.

10:47 It's insane.

10:48 And they're just throwing around words.

10:50 And unfortunately, Russell, if everyone's an anti-semite,

10:53 no one's an anti-semite.

10:54 Just like if everyone's a racist, no one's a racist.

10:56 Um, if everyone's a bigot, no one's a bigot.

10:59 And that's really sad.

11:00 Um, and a lot of Jewish people are speaking out um,

11:03 against this and and we have a duty to do that cuz words matter.

11:08 How far did you get in that hearing and where do you

11:12 think the conversation is currently

11:15 with the conflation of anti-semitism and as you

11:20 describe it objections to the actions of the political state of Israel which

11:25 is obviously a like a position that a lot of people share now.

11:31 Yeah.

11:32 I think anyone under the age of 60 does not support Israel.

11:35 I mean, they tried to get us to, you know,

11:37 believe that God's chosen people are the 1948 state of Israel.

11:42 We all know, um, if you're, you know, theologically literate,

11:46 you know, that that that's crazy and that's not true.

11:48 Um, but they've been pushing that that theological perspective,

11:51 especially these Christian Zionists that serve in in our government, you know,

11:56 that they believe the Paula Whites, the Ted Cruzes, the Mike Huckabees,

12:00 they believe that 1948 Israel is some biblical prophecy being fulfilled.

12:04 Therefore, we must bless BB's bombs.

12:06 We must bless BB at all costs because he's God's

12:10 chosen person and his bombs are are ordained by God,

12:14 I guess, according to these um theological heretics in my opinion.

12:18 But, um once you start pushing back,

12:20 you realize that most people are not pro-Israel anymore.

12:24 And I am I'm very grateful that people are speaking

12:27 out because it takes that it takes more and more

12:30 people to speak out and push back against this because

12:34 um it's wrong and I I will not stand for it.

12:36 We in the United States, we have our first amendment rights.

12:38 We have our religious freedom and this theological supremacy.

12:42 We have to stand up against it because our founders did

12:45 not intend for there to be one specific denomination of of Christianity.

12:49 We are founded on a Christian nation, but it wasn't one denomination.

12:52 And so, um, we're seeing this theological supremacy overtaking our government.

12:58 And that's where I have to stand up and speak out because I have two

13:01 kids and I don't want to leave them a country where they don't have first amend,

13:04 their first amendment or their religious freedom.

13:08 How do you think it is we find ourselves

13:11 in this position where it sounds like you're characterizing

13:14 the way that the current administration is utilizing Christianity

13:19 is um sort of unconstitutional and not spiritually righteous certainly.

13:24 How do how do you feel that that's happening under someone that based

13:28 on what I've heard you say so far and in other interviews and other

13:31 public materials about yours and available

13:34 that I've um seen happening under like

13:38 a person that you and a president that I imagine you still admire.

13:43 What do you and isn't it sort of kind of surprising

13:46 that MAGA and Trump is leading to something that I feel

13:50 that many people thought might be exactly what Trump would protect

13:55 America and Americans and people of the world in some ways from

14:02 Yeah, it's really it really makes me sad.

14:04 I honestly feel I was telling someone the other day,

14:05 Russell, that I feel like it's sort of like a divorce.

14:09 You know, you you believed in this person, you trusted them.

14:12 For me, it was 20 years I supported this president.

14:15 I lost friends.

14:16 I wore that red Make America Great Again hat proudly um when it wasn't safe,

14:21 when it wasn't popular.

14:22 I lost, you know, um money from it.

14:25 I lost business from it.

14:26 But I stood by this this man because I believed in him and I believed that he

14:30 wanted to make America great again and he

14:32 was going to put the American people first.

14:35 And then all of a sudden he completely betrayed us

14:39 and completely um betrayed MAGA really which is make America great again.

14:44 And he is putting a foreign country before his own people unfortunately.

14:49 And I think people are realizing that now.

14:51 And it's it makes me sad.

14:52 Like I'm not angry about it.

14:54 I was angry at first,

14:55 but now I've accepted it that he is not the man that we elected.

14:59 I don't know what's going on with him.

15:01 I don't know if he's blackmailed.

15:02 I don't know uh if he's fully compromised.

15:04 what's going on.

15:05 But this is not the Donald Trump that we all voted for.

15:08 He promised us no foreign wars.

15:11 Um and we're seeing now that really BB Netanyahu

15:14 is um who's really running our country in my opinion.

15:19 [snorts] Do you um wonder then if this illustrates a position that I had before

15:24 becoming Christian and before coming to live

15:27 primarily in your country and really before I

15:31 had any right to make such assumptions

15:33 that political power is ultimately controlled by institutions

15:39 that are not visible or access accessible

15:44 through the means and methods of democracy.

15:47 Your dog just walked past then I don't want to get too distracted but just

15:50 so that people know the level of autism and observation that I operate at.

15:55 If your dog walks past in the corner frame

15:58 that will stop me asking questions about global imperialism.

16:01 Um he just there went down the corridor.

16:02 It sort of like looked like a labradoodle to me or a cocka poodle

16:05 or one of those kind of they look like a kind of hybrid hound.

16:08 Anyway, my point is this, like don't like

16:10 if Trump with all of his idiosyncrasy and all

16:13 of his brilliant bluster and his individualism and his fortitude

16:17 and his ability to confront and drain swamps and say,

16:21 "Well, I was taking advantage of the very same tax loopholes and you

16:24 think we don't kill people and all that stuff that made us feel like,

16:28 oh man, whether you like this guy or not,

16:30 he's a wrecking ball in the sort of glass houses

16:34 of these stone throwing liars." Now it seems like, oh wow,

16:39 even that amount of individualism and variety

16:42 can be accommodated within a global system that's long clearly been in control

16:47 of the most uh powerful nations in the world.

16:50 And then Carrie, as a Christian,

16:52 don't you think that when it talks biblically about

16:55 the world being in the thr of the evil one,

16:59 he is the prince of this world, he's in control.

17:01 Do you feel that this is just evidence of that that you

17:06 know powerful individuals charismatic

17:08 or otherwise unless they introduce significant

17:11 systemic change are going to end up uh getting involved in foreign

17:15 wars whether their names Kamala Harris Donald Trump Gavin Newsome JD

17:18 Vance pick a name that's the way and indeed how can

17:21 you have a nation or an institution or a force like

17:26 America in America since its ascendancy over the British Empire which

17:30 sometimes I wonder if true power sort of moves like a ghost.

17:34 We've got this place in the UK, the city of London,

17:37 right in the middle of London proper that can't you can't

17:41 is not subject to the rules of the rest of the country.

17:43 It's got different tax laws and it's got dragons

17:46 at the all of the points where you enter it.

17:48 It's like a really weird kind of place.

17:51 Anyway, I wonder if there are sort of a second set of institutions,

17:54 whether they're obvious in plain sight bureaucracies

17:56 like the WHO or the IMF or whatever.

18:00 Um, or even more occult than that, that you know,

18:04 even just to have a Henry Kissinger style America

18:08 where you have 20 year plans and 30-year plans,

18:11 you couldn't have that sort of stuff disrupted by elections, could you?

18:14 So, were we not all mad to think that anyone, Trump or anyone,

18:19 could do anything other than what these empires do,

18:23 regardless of who leads them?

18:26 Yeah.

18:26 I mean, you look at like the White House today posted a picture of the king

18:32 of England and him and Trump and it

18:34 said two kings and it's like that's not funny.

18:37 Like to me as an American um I know Trump wants

18:41 to be king but but he's not king and Christ is king.

18:44 And so it's funny because at that hearing when I spoke

18:47 about anti-semitism I brought up and this is very very important.

18:51 So, I don't know if you're aware, but under the IH definition of anti-semitism,

18:57 it says that if you say that the Jews killed Jesus,

19:00 which is in scripture, which is in holy scripture,

19:02 sacred scripture, um you that is actually anti-semitic.

19:09 So where this is going and it's scary and I want people to understand this.

19:14 Free speech in the US is dwindling because they want to make it

19:18 so that if you say Christ is king or the Jews killed Jesus,

19:24 you will be labeled anti-semitic.

19:26 And where this is going to go, I don't know.

19:28 I don't I don't know if people if there going to be police coming and knocking

19:31 on people's doors um because they're saying things

19:34 that go against the IH definition of anti-semitism,

19:38 but that's where this is really really scary.

19:41 And back to your point that you made earlier,

19:43 you know, Trump ran on draining the swamp.

19:45 I'm going to drain the swamp.

19:46 And there's all these, you know, corrupt politicians in in DC.

19:50 And he used to laugh.

19:52 I don't know if you remember,

19:52 but he would laugh and call little Marco, Rubio, you know,

19:56 little Marco and Lion Ted and and um all these people who were not MAGA

20:01 are now all of a sudden his best friends and they're standing right beside him.

20:04 You got Laura Loomer, you got Mark Levvin,

20:07 you have um all these never Trumpers are now all of a sudden the face of MAGA.

20:12 And you have people like Tucker Carlson who I was just on his show,

20:16 Megan Kelly, Candace Owens.

20:18 you have all of his most loyal supporters from the very beginning,

20:22 Marjorie Taylor Green, are now considered the enemy of MAGA.

20:28 Um, I have a big problem with that.

20:30 And so now we're seeing that there is this this divide.

20:33 I mean, I think MAGA's dead in my opinion.

20:35 I think MA is dead.

20:37 I think MAGA's dead.

20:38 And really moving forward to save this country,

20:41 we are going to have to elect people who are not bought and paid for.

20:44 I mean truly that's what Trump made fun of these politicians for.

20:47 He would say Marco Rubio's bought and paid for.

20:49 All these politicians are bought and paid for.

20:51 But what we're realizing is that once

20:53 he took the 230 million from Miriam Medson,

20:57 things changed and that's politics and it's unfortunate and so

21:01 we really need Apac out of our government in my opinion.

21:05 So no, nobody running for nobody that's going to be winning another election

21:08 and I won't be voting for anyone that takes money from Apac moving forward.

21:12 Well, I mean, do you like maine?

21:17 I started to say this and I don't

21:18 want to be cynical because uh what's the point?

21:20 Where does that get any of us?

21:21 But like and I really really love Bobby Kennedy a great deal.

21:24 I think he's an amazing person.

21:27 Um but do we not in a way think that ma MAGA and Maha are campaign entities

21:34 that fulfill a purpose to galvanize people for an election

21:39 and then once elections are done the business

21:42 of government or begins and the business as usual

21:47 it appears it appears to be and in a way

21:51 even though it is bold of you to say in public you know get rid of Apac back.

21:57 Do I wonder Carrie if if we're not willing to say don't

22:03 have anyone making donations ever

22:06 or lobbying and [clears throat] maximize subsidiarity.

22:11 empower the states maximally and each state should empower towns and communities

22:16 and each town and community should empower the individual and then we should

22:20 have a democracy worthy of the founding fathers and that kind of anti-second

22:25 amendment argument that people often use that oh well if they'd known about

22:30 the firearms that you have these days

22:31 semi-automatic ARs and this that and the other

22:35 um you know they would have passed different laws and made

22:38 different amendments or I think I think sometimes that when that we have

22:43 a technology that means we could have a democracy that's much more candid,

22:48 transparent, open, mobile and agile.

22:51 So if we're going to have conversations about how a sort

22:54 of a very um what do I want to say

22:57 kind of fascinating and exciting political figure like Donald Trump

23:02 is ultimately being sort of inured and castrated in office.

23:07 Why are we not then looking really seriously at what the systemic problems

23:12 are recognizing that it's obviously the ability

23:14 of non-governmental institutions to influence policy

23:18 whether that's Apac as you have said and as Thomas Massie has been

23:21 saying for as long as he's out of mouth as far as I can

23:24 tell and and all of but like why stop there why stop there

23:29 why not say if we're going to meaningfully change America or the world

23:35 we have to start practicing ing what we preach and instituting real democracy

23:41 maximally and investigating and interrogating this system

23:45 in a way that actually offers change.

23:48 We all I think most people in your country if there was

23:51 a yes no referendum on war with Iran or no war with Iran.

23:56 People might press no.

23:57 So we don't have a democracy anyway.

24:00 Certainly as you've already observed my country is absolutely out of control.

24:04 Crazy.

24:05 [laughter] like it don't even like you can't even tell.

24:07 I mean when you're there it's still nice.

24:09 People are still British and fantastic

24:10 and lovely but you certainly don't feel like

24:13 um oh the British people are very happy with the way things are going.

24:17 like actually a land of dismal despair with not even I don't

24:22 think that because we live now you might say in the beginning

24:24 of the post Trump era and by post Trump I mean

24:28 even the optimism engendered by his ascent among those that adore him

24:34 and and that ascent was accompanied with a good deal of loathing

24:37 let's face it and division all the people that didn't want Trump are

24:40 saying we told you we told you world war here you know

24:43 right so um so my point um finally is um is to say,

24:50 don't you think we should be advocating for real change

24:52 and outlining what that is and to start with something like

24:55 get money all together out of politics when solving all

24:58 of these issues as best we can as much as possible.

25:00 Should that be what we're doing?

25:03 Yeah.

25:03 Yeah.

25:04 I I think that it's really sad how when you want to run for office, um you know,

25:09 you see people going in and thinking, "Okay,

25:11 I want to run for office because I want to give back.

25:13 I want to, you know, help my country.

25:15 I want to make things better.

25:16 I don't just want to complain.

25:18 I want to do something about it.

25:19 And then it's almost like once they

25:21 get in, they're they're they're given a choice.

25:24 You know, they're they're it's a choice between like

25:27 selling their soul or risk not even getting elected.

25:31 And what we're seeing now is there's so many powers at play.

25:34 Like for instance, we'll just take Apac for example.

25:37 If you don't take money from Apac or if you criticize Apac,

25:41 they will run campaign like campaigns against you.

25:44 They will fund raise.

25:45 They will literally try to destroy you.

25:48 And so a lot of politicians are like, "I don't want to deal with it.

25:51 I'll just take money and sell my soul.

25:54 Therefore, look what happens." You know,

25:56 I think everyone other than Thomas Massie and just

25:59 a couple others are the are the ones that are not,

26:01 you know, um taking money from Apac.

26:03 And I just met with Thomas Massie and I I love him and I

26:06 know he has an election coming up and I hope everybody votes for him.

26:09 But there's a real, you know, risk that he's taking by saying, "No,

26:12 I'm not going to take money

26:13 from a foreign country." And we shouldn't allow that.

26:17 You know, look at JFK.

26:18 He wanted to have Apac register under FAR and then look what happened to him.

26:23 Um, so it's very real.

26:24 It's very serious.

26:26 Um, and now finally we're able to talk about it.

26:30 Maybe 5 years ago, 10 years ago, you couldn't talk about it.

26:33 You would be told to shut up.

26:34 You're an anti-semite.

26:36 Put you in your box and slam the door.

26:38 But now we're seeing that, you know, we see people like James Fishbach,

26:42 uh, Thomas Massie, um, Dan Blitzerion, I think that's his name.

26:47 He, you know, not vowing not to take any money from Apac.

26:50 So now we're seeing candidates that are standing up against this big,

26:54 um, monster um, that's really trying to destroy our country in my opinion.

26:59 You think that that's the one, huh?

27:01 You think it's that's the one?

27:02 You don't think there's like a global imperialist thing that's uh, to you?

27:07 I'm European.

27:08 How you know this about me?

27:08 I'm English.

27:09 In fact, specifically,

27:10 you don't think that there's a kind of a my references are

27:13 from like uh literature autodidact that I am like part Orwell 1984,

27:19 a boot stamping on a human face, centralized control,

27:23 big brother, ahistorical, rewriting it as we go.

27:28 Part Ordis Huxley, i.e.

27:30 it's a kind of a Steve Jobs aesthetic.

27:32 Everything kind of looks nice and sanitary.

27:36 iPhones and things are sort of neat and at least on the surface kind of well

27:40 branded and logos and it's all sort

27:42 of super rational and we're here to help you.

27:45 We're here to care for you.

27:47 And then the only nonBritish writer of the free France Kfka who a Czech

27:52 writer who sort of felt the horror

27:56 that's in bureaucracy like the bureaucracy is inhuman.

28:00 I noticed when I've been doing this recent round of press that the building

28:05 one in particular where I did that Piers Morgan interview it was

28:07 in the Associated Press building downtown New York and I noticed that it

28:11 was exactly the same type of building

28:13 as News International's building in London UK.

28:16 I mean the turn styles that you show

28:18 your lanyard or your pass at that there are no

28:21 people that there are no windows in the upper

28:24 floors at least the lobby area I think may

28:26 have had windows but an eerie and inhuman feeling

28:30 is in there when you call an elevator like

28:33 I suppose you get this regular in big buildings

28:35 but you can't call the elevator yourself you're summoned up

28:37 from the floor there are no buttons and when

28:40 you reach the floor itself windowless and this being

28:43 the Associated Press they proudly show those photographs as if

28:46 man ray or something that the AP have acquired

28:49 over the years and firstly me as a person

28:52 that's worshiped the culture for a long time I

28:54 see those images and think ah prestigious images but when

28:57 you actually look it's like that famous I think