Denominations Series: Roman Catholicism with Dr. David Deane

0:09 It's the AC

0:11 for THE LOVE OF GOD.

0:12 LOVEACE.

0:16 WELL, hello everybody.

0:17 Welcome back to the AC podcast.

0:20 My name is Ben McDonald and we are carrying on in our series on denominations.

0:25 This is a podcast series that we're going to be releasing throughout

0:29 the year where I am going to be sitting down with theologians,

0:33 thought leaders, pastors, uh,

0:35 from various faith backgrounds within the Christian tradition

0:38 to just talk about what is the church,

0:40 you know, what is what is the faith and how can we come together and find unity.

0:45 And with that, I am very happy to introduce uh my guest for today.

0:50 Uh a friend of mine from over here

0:52 on the east coast who is no longer uh with us.

0:55 Actually, Dr.

0:56 David Dean is a Roman Catholic theologian who has now moved to uh

1:02 Newman Theological College in Edmonton where

1:05 he is a professor of systematic theology.

1:07 I suppose that's a real Irish exit that you did because you were here

1:10 at the Atlantic School of Theology and I

1:13 didn't get to say goodbye, but there you go.

1:15 Dr.

1:16 David Dean is the author of numerous publications including his last book,

1:20 The Tyranny of the Banal on the Renewal of Catholic Moral Theology,

1:24 and you can check him out online on a number of podcasts.

1:27 David, it's great to see you.

1:28 Great to have you on the pod.

1:30 It is great to see you too, Ben.

1:32 and and apologies for that Kaiser so style Irish goodbye,

1:37 you know.

1:37 Yeah, I should probably expect that.

1:38 That that's totally fine.

1:40 David, just for our audience, Dave and I have known each other for a while.

1:44 You can actually go search on the internet.

1:45 You could probably find we did a podcast a couple

1:48 years ago when I was at Deepwater Church on on Nichze,

1:52 which was fantastic.

1:54 We have a we have a colleague with us at AC

1:56 who's doing his dissertation right now on GK Chesterton and Nietze.

2:00 So, he'd be Oh, wow.

2:01 I'm sure he'd love to chat with you

2:02 at some point about all of that, but that's great.

2:05 I'm always keen.

2:06 Always keen.

2:07 Well, uh, David, um, I would love to start with a a really simple question,

2:12 and it's sort of a question I I ask everybody, um,

2:15 that I'm interviewing, and it is simply, what is the church?

2:19 Uh, from the Roman Catholic perspective, um,

2:23 what does it mean to be the body of Christ?

2:26 What is the ecclesia?

2:27 And, and I want to just frame this first.

2:30 I'm asking it specifically because I think there's

2:33 a lot of people um who when when you go on the online world and you see

2:38 the sort of debates between Catholics and Protestants or Eastern

2:42 Orthodox there's a lot of talk of the one

2:44 true church and there's this idea that you

2:49 know there's a lot of variation there's a lot

2:52 of diversity across both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.

2:57 How do we define the church?

2:58 How do we think about what does it mean to be

3:00 the one true church and and how do you see that?

3:04 Yeah, the language certainly since Vatican 2 is uh focuses on a concept called

3:10 subsistence and therefore that rests uneasily with references

3:14 to the one the one true church.

3:17 um to I think to frame it is is is is best

3:22 to start with the question you asked first in terms of what is

3:25 the church from the Roman Catholic perspective and it's it's fairly simple

3:30 there's a wonderful little line in the catechism of the Catholic Church which

3:34 notes that the church is Marian before she is Petrine and what

3:38 this really refers to is a is a tradition that you have

3:41 in the fathers um which notes that at the enunciation there we have

3:47 the the church bubbling up into being in a very very distinctive way.

3:52 And therefore I tell all my students

3:54 that when they want to think about the church

3:56 particularly the church is an onlogical reality

3:59 that they need to think about the enunciation.

4:01 Why?

4:02 Because you have a creature just like you and me

4:04 the blessed mother um who says yes to the holy

4:08 spirit and the and the result is the real

4:10 presence of Christ in her body and in the world.

4:13 And this is what the church is.

4:14 The church is what happens when women and men say yes

4:17 to the Holy Spirit leading to the presence of Christ in the world.

4:22 Um therefore the church is prefigured in the in the history of Israel

4:27 and in the Old Testament when people say yes to the Holy Spirit and the real

4:31 presence of the word bubbles up into being

4:34 even prior to the the full incarnation and then of course in a very

4:38 very distinctive way fleshified after the incarnation itself.

4:43 So the church in Nuche is a yes to the Holy

4:46 Spirit which leads to the presence of Christ in the world.

4:49 Everything flows out from that.

4:50 And so the Petrine church which is

4:53 the Roman Catholic uh uh church understands that.

4:57 So in a sense this onlogical reality yes the Holy Spirit

5:00 lead to the presence of Christ within this is the sap

5:03 and then that leads to branches um which which which might be

5:07 visible in the world more distinctly visible which we call the church.

5:10 But that's but that's it.

5:11 That's what it amounts to.

5:12 It's an ontological reality.

5:14 Um, and and this is what the church is.

5:17 And the body of Christ happens.

5:19 And I tell my students that Romans 7:8-12 really summarizes the the distinct

5:26 emphasis that you that you have in the gospels on the church.

5:30 But in Romans 7, um, Paul says, "Who will save me from this body of death,

5:34 wretched man that I am?" And in Romans 8, Romans 8:11,

5:37 we have the wonderful um when the spirit of he who

5:41 raised Christ Jesus from the dead dwells in your mortal body,

5:44 then you shall have eternal life.

5:46 And so this yes to the Holy Spirit permeates his mortal body.

5:50 And Romans 12 notes that this yes is a yes that we say,

5:55 but that doesn't mean that we entrap the Holy

5:58 Spirit in our bodies because God is one.

6:00 God is God is God is bigger than us.

6:03 And therefore really what it does is it knits people

6:05 together in the ecclesia as cells in this body of Christ.

6:09 And so this is what the church is.

6:10 The church is the body of Christ.

6:12 It's a it's a real ontological reality that comes

6:15 from the real ontological presence of Christ in the world

6:18 through the yes from women and men to the holy

6:21 spirit who proceeds from the father and the son.

6:24 Um speak the filioquay in there.

6:28 Yes.

6:30 That's really quite interesting.

6:31 So because it's it's you're understanding the church

6:34 as an ontological reality through these figures, right?

6:38 You're mentioning Mary and you're mentioning Peter, Marian,

6:41 Petrine and and to understand the church through that.

6:45 You also at one point there said that the body

6:47 of Christ happens which I I think this is interesting.

6:50 I was speaking with David Goa not too long ago, Eastern Orthodox theologian,

6:55 and he had a very similar way of speaking

6:56 about the church as an event in a sense.

6:59 But this idea of the the figures of the church,

7:02 seeing the church as Marian and also Petrine,

7:06 is this is this a distinctive Roman Catholic thing?

7:10 Is this something that we we've talked

7:11 on the podcast before about the role of Mary, for instance, the figure of Mary?

7:16 But how help Protestants understand how how do you use

7:22 these figures to to understand exactly what the church is?

7:28 Well, your introduction flagged the kind of apologetics this is

7:35 and the and and the kind of apologetic energy that this um podcast has.

7:41 And therefore I would I would be loathed to flag

7:48 the fact that this approach that I'm mentioning with reference

7:54 to the blessed mother um is properly Protestant um although

7:59 it uh and so therefore it's there in Luther it's there

8:02 in Sauron Kirkagard it's less there in 20th century US

8:06 evangelicalism um and so one of the things that happens is

8:14 and you can see this very very clearly in the 19th

8:17 century is that the reformation leads to an increasing polarization.

8:22 There's a Roman Catholic theologian who I don't like called Carl Roner and Carl

8:26 Roner wrote a little book at one stage called the shape of the church

8:28 to come and this little book was one of the few things from that actually

8:32 really enjoyed and so he's writing at a time and at the time it's

8:36 after the second Vatican council and there's

8:38 two little camps developing in the Roman

8:39 Catholic Church and one focused on a on a journal called Communio and the other

8:44 focused on a journal called Conchilium and he he said look be careful guys

8:48 um your your habitation of these two

8:52 different camps isn't itself the the worst thing.

8:57 But what is the worst thing is that because you will read the same things

9:00 and because you will define yourselves over and against

9:02 the other this polarization is a propulsive thing.

9:06 It will drive you further and further and further

9:08 apart and we see that after the reformation.

9:11 So we see that Luther and and and Kugard

9:14 will also use the blessed mother as an example.

9:17 you know, kgar will talk about our parents

9:19 in faith and he's talking about Abraham and he's

9:21 talking about the blessed mother and of course

9:23 Luther's Marian theology is is like is exceptionally rich.

9:27 Um but what happens in the 19th century um is

9:30 that we start to vilify each other in order to define ourselves.

9:35 And so the Catholic Church doubles down

9:38 on certain things which are in yourrface against Protestantism.

9:43 And so

9:44 what I would say there and I'm a I'm a big supporter

9:46 of the Marian dogma and if I'm going to talk about the

9:49 the ecclesiology for Mary I'll I'll I'll I'll bring in the enunciation

9:54 or the assumption and the immaculate conception and things like that.

9:57 Um but the the 19th century um Roman Catholic Church

10:02 identifies that they are these dogma are necessary for salvation.

10:06 That's a that's an explicitly anti-protestant move which is designed

10:11 to to force Catholics in Germany for example during the culture

10:17 camp funer Bismar um to remember that they belong first

10:21 to the church and then only second to you know

10:24 to Germany and so too the the the Protestant church

10:29 is moving in a a less Marian and and many other

10:34 things as well but a sort of a less Roman

10:36 direction as each becomes uh defined over and against the other.

10:41 So when you say you know what is

10:42 there for like for for Protestants like the reformers

10:46 um and and and Protestantism could not imagine

10:52 um uh not using examples such as the blessed

10:57 mother as an example of of what it

11:00 means to be church because all through and again

11:03 it's it's scant in the gospels but she says

11:07 listen to him do what he says you know,

11:10 she constantly learns.

11:12 She starts out, she's just like us.

11:15 She says, you know, "Come in, son.

11:17 You'll be you, you'll be killed.

11:18 Stop, you know, stop stop attracting all this attention

11:21 and getting yourself in trouble." And he says,"Woman, get back." And she does.

11:27 and she's the one who's there at the foot of the cross

11:30 because she like us and again like Peter learns um and and learns

11:36 to say yes more to the Holy Spirit and therefore to grow

11:39 with in Christoformmity and so this is the model but the but the key thing

11:44 for the cath for the for like for Catholicism and again I I'm

11:47 not saying this is not there in in reformed traditions is that the church

11:51 is an ontological reality um that it is that it is not people living

11:58 in harmony with a set of beliefs or ideas although it is that too.

12:03 It is a a real presence of Christ in the bodies of women and men.

12:09 And this is not to say that therefore we conflate these bodies with Christ.

12:14 That would be absurd um by virtue

12:16 of the fact that we will still despite our yeses

12:19 to the Holy Spirit sin and and and and often deny um you know Jesus Christ.

12:25 And this happens in bishops and popes um uh too

12:28 like a sort of the bishops and popes will will billow

12:34 with the presence of Christ and therefore and therefore be

12:37 the church very very fully at various times and in various moments.

12:43 And then at other times they may reject and say

12:45 no to the Holy Spirit and therefore this presence

12:48 of the church and the presence of the Holy Spirit

12:50 and and their participation in the trying in life will will desist.

12:54 The great example that all the fathers use and and and Luther

12:58 himself uses is of the iron and the fire.

13:00 That is sort of the, you know, that we're the iron and we're cold by nature.

13:05 We're absolutely cold, but you place us into the into into the furnace and we

13:09 absorb the heat and the and the and and and and the fire

13:13 and the oreness from the coals and the furnace and then

13:16 we will too will glow glow orange and become part of it.

13:19 And if you touch it, you'll you'll burn yourself.

13:22 but you take us out of there and we will go back cold again.

13:25 And this is the case for every single human being.

13:28 Um, and as human beings comprise the church,

13:31 this is the case for the for the church too.

13:34 And so that there's a lot to say there.

13:36 The the the poker and the fire as a as an example.

13:40 The early fathers using that often to speak about the incarnation itself, right?

13:44 I mean, it's the property of the flesh

13:46 and then it has the properties of the fire.

13:49 But you and you transfer that to the church as well.

13:51 So there's an incarnational reality to the church.

13:55 But here's where I wanted to talk about is that you had

13:57 mentioned this is what I see is this idea of the reactions

14:01 and that we are defining things in reaction to each other

14:04 and that things end up getting very puffed up after the reformation

14:08 and it seems like I wanted you to go back to Vatican 2.

14:11 You mentioned Vatican 2.

14:13 It seems that there there was a move to be made ecumenically to sort

14:20 of widen the scope of how the Catholic Church sees the body of Christ,

14:25 sees the church itself.

14:26 Am I right in in saying that?

14:28 Is that sort of tell me a little bit more about that move?

14:31 I mean, because you go from extra ecclesium nullos, right?

14:36 No salvation outside of the church,

14:37 but then that is sort of modified with Vatican 2 or changed in some way.

14:42 I mean how how are we to understand that and that progression

14:45 well there there's a sense in which it

14:47 can't be changed um because so many fathers particularly

14:51 Augustine use that exact phrase um Augustine says

14:55 explicitly outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

14:59 Um Cyprien says the same thing.

15:01 Um even says the says the same thing.

15:04 So when the the second Vatican council um affirms

15:08 the the reality of salvation in for example Protestant denominations,

15:13 what is what what it must be saying and is saying is

15:17 that the church Catholic is not is

15:20 not exclusively identical to the church of Rome.

15:24 Um which is which is quite a dramatic thing to say.

15:27 Now why is it saying that and why is it insisting on that?

15:31 Um well the the fact is and so one of my favorite

15:35 books on marology is um is she's um classic text and this is

15:40 an amazing book on the blessed mother

15:43 which is beautiful and mystical and delightful

15:48 and he's reasoning out from scripture and from tradition in just beautiful ways.

15:54 And every now and again he gets really hot under

15:57 the collar at people having a go at his mom,

16:01 you know, and that's and that's and that's that's what

16:05 happens in in in certain sections of 19th century Catholicism.

16:09 And don't forget that the church at the time is is is facing existential threat.

16:15 So what what do I mean by that?

16:16 Well, Napoleon places the the pope under house arrest.

16:21 um Italian unification risk the annihilation

16:23 of the of of the Vatican and the Papal States.

16:26 Um the new modern nation states particularly Protestant

16:30 nation states we think of Germany after its

16:32 pushification under Bismar um is really is really

16:36 pushing back against that and this leads to something

16:39 of a siege mentality where the church becomes

16:43 very very feisty and this and and I don't want to suggest because I know there's

16:48 probably going to be Roman Catholics listening as well.

16:51 I don't want to suggest that this leads the church into error.

16:54 Um, but it definitely leads the church

16:56 into what I believe to be an unnecessary feistiness,

17:01 um, an unnecessary palemicism.

17:03 And by virtue of that, it is pushing back

17:07 strongly against the satiriological claims of bodies outside the church.

17:13 And um, and and emphasizing Cri and Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine, etc.

17:19 to do so.

17:20 Now a far more temperate mood prevails in the second Vatican council.

17:28 It it it can't does not want to say all the church fathers who say there is

17:33 no salvation outside the Catholic Church are wrong because

17:35 that would be that would be really really problematic.

17:38 If they're wrong on that then let's let's let's let's cast out the doctrine

17:42 of the trinity and all the other stuff that they that they get up to.

17:45 Um and so what it then moves to is a notion a focus

17:52 on on subsistence and a move to subsistence over and against EST.

17:57 So so what what is that there?

17:59 So the church is a yes to holy spirit

18:00 which leads to the real presence of Christ within.

18:02 Therefore the church is the body of Christ.

18:05 Now est is the body of Christ.

18:08 This can lead to the idea which we have in 19th

18:11 century um Roman Catholicism that the church is the body of Christ.

18:17 And what the church is is all the stuff that's visible.

18:21 And so you see a building, you see a bishop, you see a pope,

18:25 therefore you see the church, therefore you see the body of Christ.

18:28 Institutional.

18:29 So it conflates the institution with the onlogical reality.

18:32 When the fact is that within Ben Macdonald there

18:37 is this yes to the Holy Spirit which leads

18:39 to the presence of Christ within which will shape

18:41 him in certain ways and there will be faith,

18:43 hope and love and this is the truth.

18:46 This is the this is the the real presence of God.

18:49 This is something which is beautiful and if

18:51 this directs him it is it is it is glorious.

18:54 But then there's also a radical peripheration of concupisence and sinful desires

18:59 and countless nos to the Holy Spirit where Ben McDonald will say,

19:03 "Not today, Holy Spirit." And will act in in accordance with the flesh.

19:09 Like this is this is solid Paul stuff.

19:11 Are you going to act in accordance with the spirit?

19:12 Are you going to act in accordance with the flesh?

19:14 And when you act in accordance with the flesh,

19:16 you are not the church ontologically.

19:19 And this is this is the same for the church of Rome.

19:21 So what the church says.

19:22 So so therefore what the church faces is

19:26 the spectre of saying there is no church which is

19:30 um going to be any way better than any

19:32 other church by virtue of the fact that church is

19:34 yes to the Holy Spirit which leads to the presence

19:36 of Christ within and therefore if you're practicing Christian

19:39 or not you could say yes to the Holy

19:41 Spirit in creation leading to the presence of Christ within.

19:45 But the church doesn't go that far and instead says

19:49 that the yeses that are possible through the church of Rome

19:54 by virtue of its feely to the aids that Christ

19:58 gave it and gives us in in in the gospels for example do this in memory of me

20:04 and a certain eucharistic theology and the sacraments and so

20:06 on and so forth means that the onlogical participation

20:11 of the church in the body of Christ has a higher ceiling.

20:15 then rationally.

20:18 So, here's an example of this.

20:20 Let's say you've got two people and um person A eats right

20:27 and goes to the gym and does all those good things and um

20:32 is extremely healthy and person B sits on their ass and eats whatever

20:38 they want and never goes to the gym and is just as healthy.

20:42 Well, this is this is bizarre.

20:43 Is it is it is it possible?

20:45 Yeah, it's possible.

20:47 And this is how Roman Catholics, I think,

20:50 you know, see um salvation outside the church.

20:53 It is definitely possible and it can happen.

20:56 And so I've got I see my Protestant brothers and sisters who know Christ

21:01 and relate to Christ and participate in Christ

21:04 and billow with the presence of Christ.

21:06 And I am in awe of them because for me that I don't think I could do that unless

21:11 I had assets like the rosary for example where

21:15 in in union with the blessed mother through the holy spirit

21:19 I can begin to glimpse the son almost through

21:23 a mother's eyes and therefore feel that love and feel

21:26 that overwhelming sorrow and joy and and and and other

21:31 and other mysterion sacrament things which bind me to Christ.

21:36 So, I need the gym and and diet in order to get healthy,

21:40 but I'm aware that others don't have don't go

21:43 to the gym and don't and don't have diet, but but they can do it, too.

21:48 Um, how doesn't make sense to me, but but they do, and that's fantastic.

21:52 And so, that's really what um what the you what lumencium,

21:56 the second Vatican Council, um, you know, is is suggesting.

22:01 So, the church Catholic is an ontological reality.

22:04 It's an ontological reality which is made

22:06 possible um and certainly made easier by feely

22:09 the tools and the guidance established

22:12 in Jesus Christ testified to in sacred scripture

22:16 um and yet there are many people who don't share in all of those things

22:21 who can still know the fullness of salvation and that's and God bless them.

22:25 That's fantastic.

22:29 Jenna.

22:31 Troy,

22:31 guess what?

22:34 What?

22:33 I'll meet you down there.

22:38 What is it?

22:40 Oh, the Western Youth Summit is back.

22:43 Round two.

22:44 Same place, same time, but this year even bigger.

22:49 Because last year we sold out before the early bird deal was even done.

22:52 So, for that reason, this year we're increasing capacity.

22:55 But like last year, I'm expecting tickets to sell quickly and honestly

23:00 to move faster than a pizza on a Friday night at youth group.

23:05 So, we're excited to officially announce the return

23:07 of the Western Youth Summit May 23rd at Trinity Western University.

23:11 I'm Troy, creative director, and I'm Jenna, the AC intern.

23:15 Jenna, what exactly is the Western Youth Summit?

23:17 Well, the Western Youth Summit is about identifying

23:20 where students are at, equipping them with truth

23:23 and tools and connecting them with trusted ministries

23:25 to help them walk through life beyond high school.

23:28 AC and Trinity Western are partnering to make this as impactful as possible.

23:32 That's why we're going to have amazing speakers for main sessions

23:34 and breakout and they're covering topics

23:36 that are actually relevant to students today.

23:39 If I'm being completely honest, when I was in high school,

23:41 I thought the whole adulting thing was going to be pretty easy.

23:45 graduation happened and I realized I was not prepared.

23:48 Yeah.

23:48 And looking back on my own experience,

23:50 I realized just how important it is to get connected early.

23:53 And that is why the Western Youth Summit exists

23:55 cuz universities aren't waiting till students get on campus.

23:58 They're trying to recruit and they're trying to get them connected now.

24:01 It's true.

24:01 They're scouting ahead, training ahead, preparing ahead.

24:04 Our faith deserves the same intentional preparation.

24:07 And there in lies the heart of the Western Youth Summit.

24:09 It's a one-day event intended to identify, equip,

24:12 and connect students for life in high school and beyond.

24:15 Graduation isn't the time to start scrambling for answers.

24:18 Intentional formation starts now.

24:20 Research shows the transition from high school to life

24:22 beyond is a crucial time for faith development.

24:25 Those that have it, they share it.

24:27 So, we're building bridges.

24:28 You're going to have the opportunity to meet with trusted Christian

24:30 ministries that are ready to walk with you through high school,

24:33 through a gap year, or even university.

24:36 You're not going to want to miss this event.

24:37 And there's also going to be some award opportunities for you.

24:40 Go to our website and sign up now.

24:43 We'll see you guys real soon.

24:48 I So I want to talk then about

24:50 tradition then in this sense because it's, you know,

24:54 you're making the analogy to it's like going

24:56 to the gym being a part of, you know, it it's the proper regimen, right?

25:00 It's the it's the exercise, the progressive overload.

25:03 this is this is the place where you train

25:05 and it's and it's where we get healthy so to speak.

25:08 And yet, so it sounds to me though

25:10 like Protestants will will typically argue that that there's

25:15 a restrictive sense in which the Roman

25:18 Catholic Church has maintained this tradition over against

25:21 I think the way Roman Catholics tend

25:23 to see that they are preserving something and so

25:26 there's a utility in a certain but do you see what I there there happens to it

25:32 it seems I think to many of us like there's a an anathema you know I

25:37 mean I want let's talk about for instance

25:39 Marian dogmas you had mentioned these earlier right

25:41 something like uh the immaculate conception which which

25:44 comes into existence in the 1800s and I

25:49 you might want to change semantically what I'm

25:52 saying there but I mean it's it's made

25:53 the promulgation of the dogma definitely

25:56 promulgation of the dogma now if I am somebody who who

25:59 is sitting there in 18 you know whatever 53 or something like

26:02 that and I say I don't quite agree with those dogmas And I

26:08 I'm not you know do I I need to submit to the magisterium.

26:13 I don't have a place or I am anathema.

26:15 Is there how is there like help me understand the utility then

26:20 that Roman Catholics see in the restrictive sense of preserving the tradition?

26:25 Because I think that's sometimes where Protestants see themselves as being more

26:28 Catholic than the Catholic Church because

26:31 they're able to expand their definition.

26:34 But obviously that's problematic for Rome.

26:37 Yeah.

26:37 So, you know, at the two extremes,

26:41 one might see tradition as a weight that that that that pulls us under

26:46 and drowns us as a life boy that that that that keeps us above water.

26:51 Um, tradition is democ as as Chesterton said is a democracy of the dead.

26:56 That it that it reminds us that we are part of a of a of an ecclesia

27:01 of a of a church community of a body of Christ

27:04 that is not reduced to those who are alive now.

27:08 And therefore the presence and the voices of those outside it are

27:12 a ballast which stops us being conflated

27:16 with any um prevailing and passing ideology.

27:21 And without tradition this happens.

27:23 Um, and so I am I'm very convicted of the fact

27:28 that um that we definitely need to be more

27:32 attentive to to tradition than less by virtue of the fact

27:36 that without it we will simply mirror our social order,

27:39 the epistemological and onlogical presuppositions of our social

27:42 order and so on and so forth.

27:44 um the my opinion which which is perhaps

27:51 a little distinctive in relation to the Marian dogma.

27:55 And so um Marian dogma are um a good

27:58 example of the of the development of doctrine.

28:01 And so the development of doctrine position is that you have

28:04 a tree and then you have branches which organically proceed from this.

28:09 Now if I was the the magisterium, if I David Dean was the magisterium,

28:18 then I would have a softness to this.

28:23 Um, which is perhaps distinct from the approach

28:25 the church takes in the 19th century.

28:28 And what I mean by that is that that while I

28:32 am convicted rationally of the Marian dogma and why they make perfect

28:38 sense to me and why I think that they logically flow

28:42 from um from the from the truths of the of the Christian faith.

28:47 Um I certainly don't think I certainly would not

28:51 hold that requiring belief in them is necessary for salvation.

28:56 Um I also believe that the that the siological

29:02 significance of of for example faith

29:04 in the assumption is qualitatively very very different

29:10 from the siological significance of faith in the trinity.

29:15 Um so you know so like like so let's let's let's get into the logic of it

29:21 and and try and try and show us some things um of of how they work.

29:26 So without belief in the trinity, without faith in the trinity,

29:29 without understanding that we um that we encounter the Holy Spirit,

29:35 within the created order within the word of God, within sacred scripture,

29:40 and this unites us and conforms us to Jesus the Christ in whom

29:44 we are God the whom we could become one with God the father.

29:47 without understanding that um really the chances of me

29:52 getting to health are very very very slim.

29:56 Without understanding that God is trying,

29:58 I'm going to I'm going to really be limited in my capacity to get to health.

30:03 Now, what does the doctrine of the assumption add to that?

30:06 The doctrine of the assumption adds something which I think

30:09 is quite small but is a balance against something else.

30:12 So what we have with the assumption and again it's necessitated earlier

30:15 by the doctrine of the immaculate conception

30:17 but the doctrine of the assumption um

30:20 holds that the blessed mother who is you know in terms of ontology

30:26 in terms of nature is fully fully human just like David or Ben.

30:32 Mhm.

30:31 And she constantly says yes to the Holy Spirit

30:34 um out of love and in love with her son.

30:37 And through these yeses without any no there's no no

30:41 because of the dogma of the immaculate conception um she

30:45 she is she becomes saturated by the presence of the Holy

30:49 Spirit and therefore she she has no push back.

30:53 She becomes like eucharistic bread.

30:56 Um whereas David will say yes to the Holy Spirit,

30:58 yes to the Holy Spirit, no to the Holy Spirit, no to the Holy Spirit.

31:01 And therefore the degree of saturation is very very limited.

31:04 the blessed mother not having that no, not having that push back.

31:08 It's all yes.

31:09 And so therefore, she the the space between

31:12 heaven and earth becomes blurred in her being.

31:17 Now this tells me that my participation in the triune life

31:24 is not simply an esqueological reality but begins here and now.

31:28 This tells me that my that my yes to the Holy Spirit leads

31:32 to the real presence of Christ within

31:35 and it has it has um onlogically significant.

31:39 It has ontological significance from my mode of being

31:42 in the world and it is and refuses any quaiic um juxiposition of salvation

31:50 as a as a as an ephemeral decision by a distant deity.

31:57 and what salvation really is the healing of a self

32:01 by Jesus Christ in relation to the Holy Spirit.

32:04 So it adds a sort of a lens that can help me imagine

32:07 it and it also adds a lens which can provide a ballast which

32:11 can avoid me um from you know fluttering off into the distance and assuming

32:16 that salvation is a is a is a decree by a distant deity.

32:21 Um is this necessary for salvation?

32:24 I don't believe so.

32:26 I don't believe so.

32:27 Now, now when the church at the time says it is

32:31 and this is definitely in tension with with with what

32:35 we get in the second Vatican council.

32:38 Um something interesting is happening.

32:41 But this brings us to the question of tradition and we can get into why

32:44 the assumption is predicated upon the document

32:46 the immaculate conception later on if you want.

32:49 But but the point is that I, David Dean,

32:56 realize that I am hardwired by evolution to soak up the ideas from my time

33:01 and place that will cause me to to advance within my social order.

33:05 I therefore distrust myself significantly.

33:09 And if I think X and the church in fieldalty to to tradition thinks Y,

33:17 then even if I'm right and the church is wrong, for me to say here I stand,

33:22 I can do no other is establishing myself as tradition,

33:26 establishing myself as the as the as the pope,

33:29 establishing myself as the Lord, as the Lord of all.

33:33 And therefore, even if I was epistemologically right,

33:36 I would be ethically wrong.

33:39 and um and that's and that's a problem.

33:41 So I'm docile to tradition but that doility

33:45 that dility requires distinction between what is the sacred

33:51 deposit of faith and what is um silia

33:55 accretions that are just stuff we've done before.

33:59 And so when Luther is is is taking a a side

34:05 to aspects of the late medieval church um he's

34:10 taking aside I would suggest to ugly accretions which are

34:15 not articles of faith but are um but are sin.

34:19 He's taking aside the sin and that's reformation.

34:22 That's that's that's what that's what the reformation should be.

34:26 That's what the reformation is in itself.

34:28 That's what that's what the reformers are.

34:30 Take aside the sin and confront the church

34:33 with the gospel and slap the church around with the gospel.

34:36 And that's necessary.

34:38 But but it's a it's a risky thing because that side is a blunt instrument.

34:42 And um and the babies of really helpful uh proper dogma can

34:48 be um can be cast out with the bathwater of of ugly accretions.

34:52 And I think as Luther watches watches

34:55 what's happening in Eucharistic theology from Switzerland, he um he says, "Whoa,

35:00 I can see some babies getting thrown out with bad water here."

35:04 Well, help me help me understand that then because

35:06 if and that is it seems what it is, right?

35:09 I mean, the reformers were trying to uh rid the church of accretions, right?

35:14 They didn't think they were doing something novel, right?

35:16 They thought they were returning to something.

35:17 And it sounds like to a degree uh you might even

35:20 agree with some of that given what was going on in 1517.

35:24 I mean it sounds like some of it was at the same time.

35:28 Help me understand from your perspective how you perceive then the reformation.

35:33 I mean I isn't there a sense and I I want to move even to I would love

35:37 to talk a little bit about the council of Trent

35:39 because we've been spending some time particularly apologetics Canada.

35:43 We've been spending some time looking at the Council of Trent

35:46 and looking at the cannon of scripture and looking at these things

35:49 and this idea of how how can we talk about

35:52 from the Roman Catholic perspective the tradition as being infallible, right?

35:57 I mean that would be the language or on this no

36:01 I mean on the same scripture and tradition having equal weight.

36:06 Undoubtedly scripture and tradition have equal weight by virtue of the fact

36:09 virtue of the hermeneutical reality of what happens when someone engages a text.

36:14 And so um one one seeks to read a text from the perspective

36:21 of the body of Christ of the church of the men

36:24 and women whose bodies have been pollinated by the presence of the Holy

36:28 Spirit and not by virtue of the of the mores of 21st century.

36:34 um you know uh epistemology and and and desire for you know for for social

36:41 progress or whatever you know and so this is why tradition is um

36:45 is important but ultimately what one is seeking is the word Jesus the Christ

36:52 through the words of of scripture and tradition

36:55 helps us in that in that process.

36:58 Um but it is not an infallible authority.

37:02 Of course it is like no more than we

37:04 could talk about the gym as as an infallible authority.

37:08 It is a it is a it is a machine

37:10 for you know for shaping our bodies and shaping our minds.

37:14 Um and so there is no we simply can't say where tradition begins and ends.

37:21 It's not a distinctive thing that we can have certainty about

37:25 and that this is a text and this is all of tradition,

37:27 you know, um that doesn't exist.

37:29 And one of the problems with the modern mindset of which the of which

37:33 the Reformation and the Renaissance are are

37:36 are parts is this desire for certainty

37:40 which is wholly out of keeping with the with the reality of the theological

37:46 enterprise for the first 1400 years of the of of the Christian tradition.

37:50 We simply can't have that.

37:52 Um, infallibility is um is an ontological

37:56 reality that's predicated upon upon thistic epistemology.

38:01 So what's happening there is um most

38:02 modern epistemology comes from you know Kant

38:05 and so we have a we have a subject and an object and I

38:07 am a subject and I'm thinking and here we have my AirPods case this is

38:11 an object and so I will come to a position about this and I

38:15 will come to think about it and I will come to assess it

38:17 and the subject is active and the and the object is is passive the object

38:21 is just inert standing there and so my capacity to know this and the veracity

38:27 of my knowledge of this is predicated upon upon me the subject.

38:32 Now the important thing theologically is that it works the opposite way

38:36 around in a sense that that I am not the active one.

38:40 Um God as the as the objective knowledge is the active one

38:44 in giving himself to me as the son through the Holy Spirit.

38:49 And so if I am completely docile

38:51 to that um then the knowledge is certain ontologically

38:55 by virtue of the of the reality of God by virtue of the certainty of of of God.

39:01 This is a distinct form of certainty than

39:03 the certainty I might have that this is

39:05 white or that this is you know an inch or two tall or whatever.

39:09 It's it's a different kind of thing.

39:11 Um so yeah so again nobody can say with absolute certainty that this is

39:19 accretion and this is and this is capital T tradition as part of the deposit

39:24 of faith and um and therefore it becomes a a an ongoing process in the live

39:30 declassia the right thing I think for all reformers um and here and again

39:36 I don't want to get pmical here um But with Francis and Dominic and Peter

39:44 Damian and Hildigard of Bingan um the right thing is to is to is

39:50 to kick up a fuss and assail the church with the gospel and um

39:54 and to do so in ways which which

39:58 retain which which which don't break into schism.

40:03 Um because what happens when we break into schism is I think what's happened

40:06 to the church in the last 500 years which is truly tragic in my opinion.

40:12 Um and this is that within Roman Catholicism.

40:16 So the so the church if you look through time the church

40:20 exists in a constant state of of of reform that that because

40:24 we're sinners and so we sin and we mess up

40:26 and we and we get sloppy and we get lazy and we

40:29 get sinful and horrible stuff emerges and develops and then reformers

40:34 come and assail us with the gospel and this is good

40:36 and and then we and we often kill them and then learn

40:40 from them and and a sort of and and progress this way,

40:44 you know, and and that this is this is this is the way of reform in the church.

40:50 And I think there's a sense in which that process ends

40:53 with the the so-called reformation by virtue

40:55 of the fact that within Roman Catholicism,

40:58 the trauma of reformation and it is trauma.

41:01 It's not just schism.

41:02 It's not just a breaking open of our of our entire

41:05 understanding of the world and the Holy Spirit's love for God's people.

41:09 Um it also leads to hundreds of thousands of deaths in wars of religion.

41:13 And so this trauma means that the word

41:16 reform becomes taboo within the Roman church afterwards.

41:21 And so constant not constant but many reformers are are are

41:28 assumed to be heretics and many reformers are assumed to be schismatics.

41:32 And so there is a a stifling of this lifeblood of reform in the church.

41:37 there is a stifling of this of this energy

41:40 which Luther participates in and which many others

41:43 participated in and that's a that's a tragedy

41:46 and so therefore the Roman Catholic Church I don't

41:48 even like the expression and I know we're

41:50 getting the trend I don't even like the expression

41:52 counterreformation because I don't think it's it's it's

41:55 really much of a much of a reformation um interesting

41:59 and then in the on on the other side in the Protestant

42:01 denominations um the the genetic code of schism becomes is

42:07 established to such an extent that um that schism rather than

42:12 reform becomes I don't want to say reflexive but it becomes

42:18 too common and therefore you have two

42:21 branches of Christianity which are which are

42:24 cut off from the lifeblood of reform because of the trauma of the reformation.

42:29 Um, so you know, I I I find this um I find it

42:34 tragic and lamentable and I find our our brokenness and our fragmentation um

42:40 I certainly do too.

42:42 grotesque.

42:42 You know, where do you where do you see where was

42:45 the fundamental misstep do you think that led to that?

42:48 I mean, why couldn't it be why didn't it stay together?

42:52 Why couldn't Luther reform the church?

42:55 Why didn't that work?

42:57 Sin.

42:58 Sin.

42:58 absolutely sin.

43:00 So, we had a little peace process in Ireland.

43:01 I'm originally from Ireland.

43:02 And if someone told me when I was growing up or even into my teens that we

43:09 would have an island on which there was

43:11 not bombs being planted to to blow up civilians,

43:15 I I could I I I said, "Yeah, absolutely." You know,

43:18 and Ireland will, you know, will win the World Cup.

43:21 Like, it's just it's it's just unimaginable.

43:23 It just couldn't happen.

43:25 And it did happen.

43:27 It did happen.

43:27 And and one of the reasons it

43:29 happened was because incredibly through either God's

43:34 grace or pure ridiculous look a huge

43:37 amount of extremely affable people came together.

43:41 And so if you look at all the people

43:43 for all their sinfulness like you know Tony Blair

43:46 took us into you know war in Iraq and so

43:48 so he's he's no angel but affable really affable.

43:52 Bill Clinton, you know, had his own problems.

43:56 More and more were finding out, but affable, really good people person.

44:00 We had in Ireland, we had, you know, Bertie Hearn,

44:04 we had good leaders, we had affable people, mole them,

44:06 good people, and so they were affable and they're able

44:09 to get on and and and and do their business.

44:11 Um, the pope at the time of the Reformation was an Um,

44:17 Luther for all his theological genius was an And part

44:22 of the problem was because the the worse angels of human sinfulness,

44:28 the the the aspects of Luther and the Pope which were

44:32 not the church but which were their sinful desire for self assertions

44:37 came into absolute for and then there were other people

44:42 um in Spain and in France and in Germany um

44:46 with their own agendas who wanted schism or at least wanted

44:53 um wanted to to use what was happening for political ends.

44:57 And so the the body of Christ became dismembered um through through sinfulness.

45:06 Sinfulness which has not destroyed the body of Christ

45:10 in that the church is alive in Protestant denominations.

45:14 It's alive within Roman Catholicism,

45:16 but it's alive in a it's it's alive in a in a in in a butchered state.

45:22 Um, and a and sin is the is, you know, is the reason.

45:28 Do you remember the first time you heard the gospel?

45:30 That moment when someone spoke the good news of Jesus Christ into your life.

45:33 Maybe it was a friend, maybe a stranger, maybe your mom.

45:37 Whoever it was and whenever it happened, that moment shaped who you are today.

45:41 It's how you came to love Jesus.

45:43 And it's why you love people the way you do.

45:45 Because the God who created everything sent his son to die in your place.

45:49 And then he sent someone else to share that good news with you.

45:52 And now it's your turn.

45:54 Your turn to be that someone for someone else.

45:57 And we're here to help you step into that calling.

45:59 Visit sherwordglobal.com/ac to find out.

46:04 Do do you think unification is possible without

46:08 watering down the differences between these two things?

46:11 because it seems to me we have more of an ecumenical spirit these days.

46:16 It seems I think I think by and large when you go back and look at the the blood

46:21 that was shed during the the just after the middle

46:24 ages and you know you think about all of that.

46:27 I mean we're not experiencing that to the same degree but there is still a lot

46:31 of you know Protestants who treat Catholics

46:33 as though it's an other religion or vice versa.

46:36 to Catholics who, you know, just I mean,

46:38 I'm sure I'll receive multiple comments in the YouTube

46:41 comment section just saying submit to Rome,

46:43 thinking that that will somehow convert us all.

46:46 Um, you know, is it possible,

46:49 how do we find a common ground while still holding to these distinctives?

46:57 Yeah.

46:57 So I think that um I I tell

47:01 the seminarians here um that I believe in their lifetime

47:06 the 11th century schism will be overturned that east

47:10 and west will be um reunited in their lifetime.

47:13 So I think that's going to happen in the in the 21st century.

47:19 Interesting.

47:18 I think that the I think this will be a significant

47:22 step towards the reunification of the of the church of Christ,

47:29 the small Catholic Church by virtue of the fact

47:33 that um that the church of Rome will in so

47:38 in in unifying with the Eastern Church will acknowledge the rightful

47:46 diversity diversity which is possible and positive within the Catholic Church.

47:55 Now this diversity has hard boundaries.

47:59 Um there is an awful lot in Christianity

48:02 today which is outside the Catholic Church.

48:06 Um and and it ain't coming back.

48:09 it it you know um but there is a diversity

48:12 you know Aquinas and Augustine are very very different figures Augustine

48:17 in many ways is as reformed as you're going to find

48:21 in terms of the in terms of many of the core issues

48:24 um Aquinus um has edges that that I'd want to chip off on on the on the other

48:31 end in terms of the affirmation of of of of time and space and matter.

48:38 Um but within that I think there is scope for a generous orthodoxy.

48:41 The people who were saying return to Rome,

48:44 I think their instinct needs to be curtailed by their affirmation

48:53 that the Rome that people may return to that is

48:58 the right relationship with the bishop of Rome or ontological union

49:03 with the bishop of Rome um will be a doubtless different Rome.

49:08 um will be will be a Rome which has worked to remove accretions

49:14 which um perhaps have um have have been spawned by the by the vice

49:21 and the sinfulness which is inherent in the in the human condition

49:25 and I think the second Vatican council was a step on that way.

49:29 Now believe me if anybody knows me I am not wishy-washy.

49:33 I am I am myself quite a quite a hardliner.

49:37 And so I'm not talking about pluralism.

49:40 I'm not talking about not having a clear sense.

49:42 What I'm talking about is that there are pathologies in in conflating the church

49:52 with the the visible church in all its operations with the body of Christ

49:57 and not seeing that the body of Christ is within the church within

50:02 the within the the yeses which pollinate the life of of the church at times.

50:08 But there's also a huge amount of accretions beyond

50:11 that which need to be which need to be paired away.

50:14 And so that's um what I would like to what I would like to push for.

50:19 I can assure the people saying come back

50:22 to Rome that there are countless people maybe

50:28 even a majority of baptized Roman Catholics who

50:32 are more alien to them than many reformed Christians.

50:38 and to realize that if the church is an ontological reality,

50:43 that their ven diagram with many reformed Christians is more filled

50:48 in than their um ven diagram with many within the Roman Catholic Church.

50:54 And once they realize that, then they've got the basis

50:57 to build then they've got the basis to build

50:59 um I think a more coherent ecclesiology which is more

51:02 open to to the restoration of the body of Christ.

51:06 um we're failing Christ.

51:08 We're failing the world.

51:09 We're failing um we're failing what we promised to do

51:13 in Peter and others in the in the Gospels.

51:16 Um because we've been torn apart and and we've torn ourselves apart by sin

51:22 and and sorry and just and and just

51:23 and just to amplify that and apologize for this.

51:26 No.

51:26 Yeah.

51:27 Here's here's something we need to remember in 2026.

51:31 The church was the Christian faith was in its

51:36 was strongest in North Africa and around the eastern Mediterranean.

51:41 Um this was where the church was.

51:43 This was the intellectual stronghold of the church.

51:46 This was the doctrinal stronghold of the church.

51:48 This was New York, Paris, Toronto, Berlin.

51:52 This was where it was at up into into northern

51:56 Europe and Germany and France and and even the British Isles.

51:59 that was um that was a a swampy

52:03 forest which which didn't matter and the church was

52:07 completely erased and annihilated in um around the Mediterranean

52:12 in North Africa by the rise of Islam.

52:14 Um it was decimated.

52:16 It was destroyed.

52:17 It was over overthrown.

52:18 And one of the reasons that happened was because the church

52:22 was not united because the church was fractious in these areas.

52:26 And therefore a an heretical form of Christianity.

52:29 This is how John of Damascus is imagining Islam.

52:32 An heretical form of Christianity could emerge

52:34 and basically subsume all the rest of it.

52:38 In the modern west in the last hundred years,

52:40 we have been confronted with what I believe

52:42 to be a heretical form of Christianity, secular liberalism.

52:45 Um, which has which has emerged as a new

52:48 world religion like Islam emerged in its time.

52:51 and it will do to the church in the west what Islam did

52:54 to the church around the Mediterranean unless

52:57 we can unify and offer a coherent alternative.

53:01 So we are faced with an existential threat um

53:05 that we need to get our asses in gear in relation

53:08 to and um and and and that involves saying okay

53:12 this is what the like this is what Christianity is.

53:15 This is this is the core element.

53:17 this is what the church is to do

53:18 real serious theology within Protestants and Catholics

53:23 and to and to say okay here is

53:25 this understanding that we can work together within

53:28 and um and in so doing we can be the kind of body of Christ

53:33 that can ensure the growth of faith

53:35 in the third millennium or or or else we'll die.

53:38 Before we bring this to a close, David, I want to ask you,

53:42 what do you think the biggest misconception

53:45 of the Roman Catholic Church is for non-atholics?

53:49 All the usual things.

53:50 Um, so one of the problems that we have, so apologetics, um,

53:56 which is what you're about is perhaps

54:00 the most important thing that we Christians, um, can do in the 21st century.

54:07 And thanks be to God,

54:09 we have through YouTube and Twitter and social media a plethora of platforms

54:16 to do apologetics and to proclaim the the truth of Jesus Christ to the world.

54:22 And that's absolutely vital.

54:24 The flip side of it is that if we get involved

54:28 in our own debates and attempt to win arguments with each other,

54:35 we will um further tear the body

54:39 of Christ apart and we will caricature each other.

54:43 I grew up with caricaturures of Protestants.

54:47 That it was it was water to me.

54:49 It was it was it was the air I breathe.

54:52 this is who Protestants are.

54:53 And it was it was brutal.

54:55 And I'm someone whose Christian faith would not be

54:59 where it is were it not for Protestants, Carl Bart.

55:03 And so I'm reading nothing but BS

55:05 Post Vatican 2 Roman Catholic wishy-washy Theology, which is which was junk.

55:10 And then all of a sudden in my third year of undergrad,

55:13 I had the good fortune to read Bart's um epistle to the Romans.

55:19 And it was like it was just oh my goodness this is

55:23 this is the real food of faith you know.

55:26 So so there's things there that we that we need to learn

55:28 from each other and um and pmics can drive us apart.

55:32 And so what happens in pmics is that we

55:36 um say things which are unnuanced and untrue.

55:40 And you know you said why did why did we schism um at the reformation?

55:45 Why did the why did the church of Rome act the way it did?

55:48 Why did Luther act the way it did?

55:50 Because it straight away went into a pmical mode of trying

55:54 to win arguments and therefore seeking to demonize the other, you know,

55:58 and and and it be through the use of the of of the printing

56:02 press and other things and cartoons and pornographic images.

56:06 It became the Twitter of its time and it tore us apart.

56:09 And this is and this is the thing.

56:11 So, you know, I would talk about the, you know,

56:14 the idea that the that the blessed mother is considered some kind of deity,

56:18 that we pray to saints, that we believe that if um Pope Leo says

56:23 that the White Socks are the best team in baseball,

56:25 that that's somehow infallible.

56:27 Um that um can't be true.

56:30 So, yeah, you know, certainly can't be true, you know.

56:32 So, all those kinds of things that um that we

56:36 that we that we believe in a church rather than Jesus Christ.

56:40 um that we believe in a man-made reality

56:44 rather than rather than the like the triune god.

56:49 All these things are are false but require nuance.

56:54 And what we're what we see in online spaces is is that we actually

57:00 become car we become the caricature the other is trying to present us as.

57:05 So because we want to go screw you

57:08 and a and that brings the absolute worst out of us.

57:12 And so the come back to Rome, you heretic, those folks,

57:16 they're becoming they're becoming the ugly Catholic that the others

57:21 are are are saying we want to watch out for just

57:23 to try and because they want because they because they felt

57:26 hurt by something and then they want to hurt you back,

57:28 you know, and we see that in the leftright debates in in US politics.

57:32 And if that becomes the church, then we're sinning.

57:35 Sin is there's all there's only ever one problem, sin.

57:38 There's only ever been one solution, Jesus Christ.

57:41 and and and and that's that's the truth of it.

57:44 And so we've got to reduce the sin and amplify Jesus Christ.

57:50 Yeah.

57:50 Well, I couldn't have put it better myself.

57:52 I don't think there's any better way to end

57:53 than that because I think you're absolutely right.

57:56 One problem, sin, one solution, Jesus Christ.

57:59 And I just want to thank you so much for coming on here.

58:01 I embrace you as a brother in Christ.

58:03 And uh I I really benefited from this conversation.

58:06 I hope others did as well.

58:07 So until next time, me too.

58:09 Thank you so much, Ben.

58:10 Yeah, thanks very much, David.

58:12 And and we always say at the end of this podcast, love God, love people.

58:16 So, carry on with that.

58:18 We'll see you next time.

58:19 Amen to that.