How To Build Lasting Happiness | Dr. Arthur Brooks

0:00 I'm constantly thinking about what I don't have and how I want to get it,

0:03 you know, and it's toxic.

0:06 So, we are made to be resentful, ungrateful, suspicious, hostile creatures.

0:12 You know, there's literally more space in the brain,

0:14 more tissue devoted in the limbic system

0:16 to negative emotions than to positive emotions.

0:19 The crisis of our time is not an enjoyment problem.

0:21 The number one predictor of clinical depression and generalized

0:24 anxiety today is saying my life feels meaningless.

0:27 If you're in the matrix all day long,

0:29 you're sitting on the left side

0:30 of your brain and you're not even considering questions

0:32 of meaning and your life is going to be bereft of the things that really matter.

0:35 That's why you're depressed.

0:37 You've spoken about these four sort of false idols Idols, yeah.

0:40 that people think will bring them the happiness.

0:43 Money, power, pleasure, and fame, fundamentally.

0:45 Everybody is most beguiled [music] by one

0:48 and when they know what their weakness is, they have pure strength.

0:53 If a person comes to you and says,

0:55 "I'm unhappy." You would tell them that they could learn to be happy.

1:00 [music] Absolutely.

1:00 And here's basically how it works.

1:03 Hi everyone.

1:03 I'm sitting here with Dr.

1:05 Arthur Brooks, who is a professor at Harvard.

1:07 He's a social scientist who studies the science of happiness.

1:11 He's got a couple of New York

1:12 Times best-selling books from strength to strength, build the life you want.

1:16 He's got a new one coming out that is called The Meaning of Life.

1:21 of your life.

1:22 of your life.

1:23 Yeah, yeah.

1:23 I am so so so excited to be sitting here having this conversation with Dr.

1:29 Brooks and I know all you all are going to love this episode.

1:32 I mean, I was just telling Arthur, you know,

1:35 just doing the background research that I do, I learned so much.

1:39 I started applying I started already applying things to my life.

1:41 On date night, I was like just rattling off all this stuff to my husband.

1:44 I mean, I was so excited Arthur to have this conversation.

1:48 time listener, first time participant in the show.

1:50 I love your show.

1:51 It's just great information based on science.

1:53 It's right in my wheelhouse and so many other millions of Americans.

1:57 Thank you for what you're doing.

1:57 Oh, thank you.

1:59 Let's let's jump-start this show.

2:01 Um yeah, yeah, let's do it.

2:02 And you know, if you would have asked me this 3 weeks ago, what is happiness?

2:10 Right.

2:10 What would you have said?

2:12 I would have said happiness is Well,

2:15 I think I would have based it more on how you feel, feeling good, making

2:19 Something like I I I can't put it into words, but I know when I feel it.

2:22 Exactly.

2:22 Yeah.

2:22 Yeah, yeah, I know when I feel it or it's how I feel when I'm with my husband,

2:26 when I'm with my son.

2:28 It's it's how I feel when I'm in the zone and doing what I love.

2:31 That that that's happiness, right?

2:33 Totally.

2:34 And that's the that's evidence of happiness.

2:36 That's the smell of the turkey, not the turkey.

2:39 You know, Thanksgiving dinner, you know what's going on.

2:41 You're going to mom's house and you open the door like,

2:44 "Yeah, it's time for Thanksgiving dinner." But that's not the dinner.

2:48 That's the evidence of the dinner and that's how feelings of happiness work.

2:51 They're evidence of the actual phenomenon and if you want to get happier,

2:54 you need to know what it is.

2:56 In the same way that you need to know what Thanksgiving

2:58 dinner is if you want to make one and eat one.

3:00 Now, for a lot of people, that means the dishes or the ingredients,

3:02 but for you and me, it means macros.

3:05 It means protein, carbohydrates, and fat.

3:07 That's Thanksgiving dinner.

3:08 That's why people think we're unsentimental people, right?

3:11 In the science community.

3:13 [laughter] But the truth of the matter is that's how happiness works as well.

3:15 There's macronutrients to it.

3:17 There's component parts.

3:18 There's elements to it.

3:20 And to get happier, you need to know what they are.

3:22 You need the definition and you need to understand how the science works as well

3:26 as change habits in your life along each

3:28 one of the three macronutrient elements of human happiness.

3:33 They are enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.

3:38 Those are the three skills.

3:39 Those are the three elements and you need

3:41 them in balance and abundance like your protein, carbohydrates, and fat.

3:44 And that's all that's where I'm going to start my class.

3:46 We're recording on a Friday.

3:47 Monday is my first lecture at the Harvard Business School

3:50 to my MBA students and we're going to start with enjoyment.

3:52 Then we're going to talk about satisfaction.

3:53 Then the biggie biggie is meaning.

3:55 That's what my new book is about.

3:57 Well, let's start with let's start with enjoyment.

3:59 Yeah.

4:00 And you know, chasing enjoyment, are you chasing that momentary pleasure?

4:05 Yeah.

4:06 What is enjoyment?

4:08 So, a lot of people who watch this show,

4:09 they have a a good foundation in in in science

4:12 and and your background leads you to I mean, you understand this stuff.

4:15 You're the best at explaining this.

4:17 So, this the understanding of enjoyment

4:20 and and distinguishing it from pleasure takes

4:22 us back to this old neuroscience explanation

4:25 of the human brain, the triune brain.

4:27 Remember the old triune brain during Cosmos in the '80s

4:30 and '90s with that show with Carl Sagan, he talked about the stars and space.

4:34 But sometimes he would talk about the dark matter between our ears.

4:38 And then he would talk about the mysteries of the human brain.

4:40 He always relied on Paul MacLean,

4:42 the famous neuroscientist from the '60s and '70s,

4:45 his concept of the triune brain.

4:47 That is the organization of the human brain in three parts based on evolution.

4:51 The oldest part of the brain is the reptilian brain,

4:54 the brainstem, the cerebellum, the spinal the spinal cord.

4:57 That that that set of structures has been around for 40 million years.

5:01 We share it with snakes and lizards, etc.

5:03 That does all of the the stuff below

5:05 your level of awareness and all the automatic things.

5:08 That's gathering data.

5:10 Right now, Rhonda's reptilian brain is like the lights,

5:14 the air temperature, you know,

5:16 I'm talking to Arthur, but you're not you're not thinking about those things,

5:19 but you're getting the data.

5:20 Those data are going to the second part of your brain,

5:22 which is newer, which is the limbic system,

5:24 also known as the paleomammalian brain.

5:27 That's between 2 and 40 million years old.

5:29 It predates Homo sapiens,

5:31 but we have it and we have it in common with all the mammals.

5:33 And that takes the the the data

5:35 from the reptilian brain and it translates it into emotions.

5:39 So, this is a big mistake that my students and everybody makes is feelings.

5:44 Like feel I want good feelings.

5:46 I I don't want so many bad feelings.

5:47 Wrong.

5:48 There's no such thing as bad feelings.

5:50 There's positive and negative emotions and all they are are signals.

5:54 They're signals that your brain has ascertained either a threat

5:57 or an opportunity that you should either avoid or approach.

6:00 Negative emotions are supposed to be uncomfortable.

6:03 They're supposed to be aversive so that you avoid things that might hurt you.

6:07 Fear, anger, disgust, and sadness, those are the four negative emotions and they

6:12 alert you to the four big threats out there.

6:15 Things being abandoned by your kin, being eaten by a tiger,

6:20 being poisoned by a bad chicken breast, whatever it happens to be.

6:23 These elicit these negative emotions.

6:25 Positive emotions do the reverse.

6:27 Mates, calories, that's what That's the reason you get these positive emotions.

6:31 Then that emotional information goes to the new part of your brain,

6:35 the prefrontal cortex, the bumper of tissue behind your forehead.

6:37 That's 30% of your brain by weight, the supercomputer.

6:39 That's the C-suite.

6:41 That's the executive center of your brain where you take the emotions and if

6:44 you're doing it right and you're

6:45 self-managing individual and a grown-up and mature,

6:49 you say, "Ah, Rhonda's feeling a little bit anxious today,

6:54 a little bit sad today.

6:55 I wonder why that is." And you think about it and you act

6:58 the way that you decide to act on the basis of that information.

7:02 Okay.

7:02 Now, enjoyment is a prefrontal cortex phenomenon.

7:06 Pleasure is a limbic phenomenon.

7:09 Pleasure happens to you.

7:10 Pleasure is happening automatically when you touch certain levers, you know,

7:14 the the ventral tegmental area, the ventral striatum, part of the limbic system.

7:18 And if you tap that over and over and over and over again,

7:20 if your goal in life is to pursue pleasure,

7:24 you're not going to arrive at happiness.

7:25 You're going to wind up in in in in rehab.

7:28 Basically, cuz that's the secret to getting addicted to stuff.

7:31 But if you add people and memory,

7:34 it will be a prefrontal cortex experience where you manage your pleasures,

7:37 they don't manage you, and then become permanent and that's part of happiness.

7:42 So, the bottom line, there's stuff that everybody has their thing,

7:46 whether it's junk food or gambling or, you know,

7:51 drinking beer, whatever it happens to be.

7:53 If you're doing it alone, you're probably doing it wrong.

7:55 Is what it comes down to.

7:57 Solitary experiences of things that things

8:00 that bring pleasure and could be addictive,

8:02 which most things can be, usually leads to pleasure, not to enjoyment.

8:06 And that's the that's the rule.

8:08 What about the things that lead to pleasure that you're doing solitary

8:12 or by yourself that require effort and a little bit of um,

8:17 you know, getting through hardships.

8:18 So, for example, like exercise, going for a run.

8:21 I it brings me pleasure.

8:23 I love doing it alone, like going for a long run.

8:27 But I'm also not just instantly achieving it.

8:29 I have to like put in the work.

8:31 Yeah, so that's general that's not addictive not addictive in the same way.

8:35 It's not actually stimulating the the neurochemistry in the same way.

8:39 It's also working in the second macronutrient of happiness,

8:42 which is satisfaction, not enjoyment.

8:45 There's enjoyment involved and there's even pleasure involved.

8:47 But really when we talk about achieving great things,

8:50 whether with your work or with your exercise

8:52 or whatever you're trying to do to be excellent,

8:54 satisfaction is really what you're seeking,

8:56 which is achieving something with struggle.

8:59 Only humans want to struggle.

9:01 I mean, everybody watching this show,

9:02 I mean, it's like they understand struggle, right?

9:04 It's like what you don't It's like How do you find your fitness?

9:08 You find your fitness by going and looking for it and doing stuff.

9:11 It's not like you finding your fitness is

9:13 like stumbling across a genie's lantern on the beach.

9:16 That's not how That's not your point in this show.

9:19 Your point is learn about all this stuff and go do things.

9:22 Go do hard things.

9:24 That struggle is super important.

9:26 And so, if you want to have satisfaction in your life, that second pillar,

9:29 do hard things and struggle and learn how to struggle and that's the point.

9:34 And that satisfaction that you get from that that gives

9:36 your your life a sense of sweetness to it.

9:39 That's a weird thing.

9:40 Only Homo Homo sapiens want to want to struggle.

9:43 And and you know, you have little kids.

9:44 So, so you know, um how many kids you have?

9:47 Just one.

9:47 Just one.

9:48 How old?

9:48 Eight.

9:49 Eight.

9:49 Okay, perfect.

9:50 So, Junior, right?

9:52 I mean, is it your is your son, right?

9:54 Yeah.

9:54 You're bringing him home from Little League.

9:56 He plays sports?

9:56 Yeah.

9:57 Yeah, okay.

9:57 course he plays sports.

9:59 And and you drive by the Dairy Queen, right?

10:01 And and here in Southern California.

10:03 And he's like, "4:30 in the afternoon." He's like,

10:05 "Mommy, let's stop for ice cream." And you're like,

10:08 "It's 4:30." And he says, "So?" You say,

10:10 "W- It's almost dinner time." He's like, "So?" Cuz he's smart.

10:13 And you say, "You'll spoil your dinner." And he doesn't understand.

10:16 So, who cares?

10:17 And then you lie to him cuz you're a scientist

10:19 and you're all about fitness and health and and diet.

10:22 And you'll say, "It's not healthy to eat

10:24 ice cream instead of a healthy dinner." Really what

10:27 you want him to learn is that he's not

10:29 going to he's not going to appreciate his dinner.

10:30 He's not going to enjoy his dinner if he's not hungry.

10:33 You want him to his little prefrontal cortex to wire

10:36 in this conclusion that good things come to those who wait.

10:41 That I'm really going to enjoy my dinner only when I'm hungry.

10:43 See, if you were honest, you'd say, "I want you to suffer." [laughter]

10:48 It doesn't sound good, but it's literally true.

10:50 Because then he'll learn that lesson.

10:52 And that's what we're learning all the time all the time all the time.

10:55 The most successful people.

10:56 Now, there's a danger to this, which is that the strivers that are watching us,

11:00 the successful people, all they learn to do is suffer.

11:04 Right?

11:05 They They're It's like the old marshmallow

11:06 experiment where if you pass on the marshmallow, you get two marshmallows.

11:09 They pass on all the marshmallows to get

11:11 more marshmallows and never eat any marshmallows.

11:14 That's a lot of our lives, actually.

11:15 Um I I Well, I definitely want to get

11:17 into your strivers curse and all that, but before

11:20 I want to kind of jump back to the enjoyment

11:22 because an interesting question that comes up is,

11:25 you know, these unhappy things that have

11:29 like thing things that cause unhappiness.

11:30 I mean, this this stuff happens in our lives, right?

11:33 I don't know that some people think because those things

11:35 happen to them that they're they can't be happy.

11:37 Right.

11:38 But that's that's not necessarily true, right?

11:40 I mean, the fact Yeah, that's wrong.

11:42 And you know, back in the '60s,

11:44 which I don't really remember and you weren't born,

11:46 the hippies used to say, "If it feels good,

11:48 do it." I remember my dad hearing that.

11:50 He's like, "That's the end of America." You know, he was kind of right.

11:53 But that that was a misguided way of understanding

11:56 life because that was all about the pleasure lever.

11:58 That's the reason that, you know, the drug culture,

12:01 the hippie culture led to so much hardship is because

12:04 it was unbridled pleasure as opposed to the pursuit of enjoyment,

12:07 which is a more human, a more disciplined kind of thing.

12:10 The problem today is exactly the opposite where we tell a lot of young people,

12:14 "If it feels bad, you got to make it stop." There's this eliminationist view.

12:19 And so, for example, I mean, life has a lot of sadness and anxiety in it.

12:23 We We all face sadness and anxiety.

12:26 If you go to campus counseling and you say,

12:29 "I'm sad and anxious." They'll say, "Well, that's a problem.

12:31 We got to treat that." I understand liability.

12:33 I hang out on a campus.

12:35 But the truth of the matter is, in my university,

12:40 if you're if you're studying at Harvard and you're not sad and anxious,

12:42 you need It You Look,

12:44 if you're if you don't have a lot of trouble, you're not digging in.

12:48 You're not digging in life.

12:49 And so, you need to understand that.

12:50 Now, it can be obstructive.

12:52 It can be dysregulated, of course.

12:55 It can become a medical problem, to be sure.

12:58 But the the the idea that you can't

13:00 be happy because of unhappiness is completely wrong.

13:02 On the contrary, you can't be happy unless you're unhappy.

13:06 You need unhappiness because the road to it

13:09 passes through a life that's fully alive.

13:12 And the limbic system creates positive and negative

13:15 emotionality in different structures for different reasons.

13:18 You wouldn't want to get rid of a whole set of emotions

13:21 and and and leave yourself in danger

13:24 just because you want another set of emotions.

13:27 You want the whole You want the whole

13:30 menu in front of you in this particular way.

13:32 You just need to manage your negative and fire up the positive.

13:35 And that's what the science helps you do.

13:37 And so, when it comes to, you know,

13:39 attacking this like pleasure things or, you know, to get the enjoyment,

13:44 we need to to bring to have it with a person,

13:47 to have an experience with someone else, not doing it by ourselves.

13:50 I mean, is that Is there like some practical tips people can do

13:55 to kind of like train themselves to engage in that kind of behavior?

14:00 Yeah.

14:00 It's to start [clears throat] looking at the It's funny

14:03 because the the brain Certain things don't give you pleasure.

14:06 You give yourself pleasure.

14:08 You understand?

14:09 Your your brain is a pleasure factory by getting really,

14:12 really good at certain things.

14:13 So, some people just don't like sweets.

14:15 I don't understand it.

14:16 I'm crazy about sweets.

14:17 I'm I just eat I might eat nothing but sweets.

14:20 I mean, I just I I I love sugar, right?

14:22 And I understand that.

14:23 My brain is incredibly good.

14:25 My dopamine pathways are just highly skilled at giving

14:30 me a sense of pleasure on the basis of that.

14:32 Other people, it's like, I I don't get it.

14:33 You know, I do a lot of talks in Vegas for different things.

14:36 Some of them are on the road all the time giving speeches.

14:37 And And I see people at 4:00

14:39 in the morning pulling the lever on the one-armed bandit.

14:41 I'm like, "Dude, that is so boring and sad." That all that means is

14:45 I don't get any pleasure from that because

14:47 my brain doesn't work that particular way.

14:49 So, we all have that thing.

14:51 Now, again, there are lots of things that you

14:53 can do that are not addictive at all,

14:55 like walking in the woods or saying your prayers.

14:57 Great.

14:58 Alone?

14:59 Great.

14:59 And solitude is beautiful.

15:01 It's not isolation.

15:02 Isolation and solitude are two different phenomena.

15:05 And so, having solitude where there is something that you truly love,

15:08 that's great, by yourself.

15:09 But the the things that can be addictive,

15:12 even internet use, even eating, they're best accompanied by other people.

15:16 And that's how the brain was evolved.

15:17 We still have the Pleistocene brain from 2 250,000 years ago.

15:21 And almost all the time when people ask,

15:24 "Why do we do fill in the blank weird thing?" There's evolutionary

15:28 biology and psychology that will explain

15:30 it from the habituation to the Pleistocene.

15:32 When Homo sapiens lived in small bands of 30

15:34 to 50 individuals that were kin-related and hierarchical,

15:38 why are we envious if somebody has more than we do?

15:40 Because we want to rise in a little 30 to 50-person hierarchy.

15:44 Why are we so afraid of offending somebody?

15:47 Because if you get kicked out of the tribe,

15:49 you're going to walk the frozen tundra and die alone.

15:52 All of the things that we do in mating, in friendship,

15:56 in in in in envy, all of this stuff is kind of related to that.

16:00 And this is a good example of it.

16:02 We're habituated, for example, to eat around a campfire looking at each other.

16:07 And we get tremendous pleasure from that.

16:10 We get oxytocin from that.

16:12 We get dopamine from actually doing that.

16:15 And and it's very comforting to us.

16:17 What about people that are that now we do have

16:20 these phones and we do have There is a lot

16:23 of pleasure that is particularly certain types of people

16:26 and I'd say a lot of a lot of people nowadays Yeah.

16:29 get rewarded by scrolling social media or the news, you know,

16:35 whatever it is that they love to do on their phones.

16:37 And they're if they are at a dinner or they're you know,

16:40 in some sort of setting with their friends or family,

16:42 you oftentimes will see that they have their phones

16:44 out and they're not really engaging as they normally would,

16:49 perhaps if it was like 15 years ago, whatever.

16:52 Um and that we didn't have these these phones there.

16:55 Like what are they missing out on?

16:57 And and what can they do to like realize what they're missing out on?

17:01 Like it's I We all have We all know these people.

17:04 They're probably could be us.

17:06 Could be family members.

17:07 Absolutely.

17:08 Left to your devices, I mean, you live online.

17:10 I mean, this show is online.

17:12 And and you're like,

17:12 "I wonder how the episode of Arthur is doing." And And your husband's like,

17:16 Exactly.

17:16 "Honey, uh hello." Right?

17:19 I mean, that's a normal thing that actually happens to us.

17:21 There's a bunch of different reasons that that we

17:23 get addicted devices and and misuse our devices.

17:26 And that's a lot of what I'm writing about

17:27 in this new book is actually how it changes our brain.

17:29 It literally changes the way that we use our brain in such

17:32 a way that we can't actually ascertain the meaning of our lives.

17:36 There's a use of the brain that helps you understand the meaning of your life.

17:39 And you're not using your brain that way when you're using technology.

17:43 It's a real problem that we're using our brains literally wrong.

17:46 Okay, so when we get into the Meaning.

17:48 We'll talk about that.

17:49 Yeah.

17:50 We're going to definitely going to talk Awesome.

17:51 I want to hear about this.

17:52 Okay, let's talk about satisfaction, too.

17:53 I mean, But on the on the on the generally just on the the side of, you know,

17:58 how we use the devices wrong, how young people use the devices wrong.

18:00 We're using it because it gives us a little reward, a dopamine reward,

18:05 wondering if there's mail or notifications or whatever it happens to be.

18:09 And that's just, you know,

18:10 the the algorithms have been designed to actually stimulate

18:13 the the the dopamine pathways in the human brain.

18:15 So, the the locus coeruleus has a little spritz in there.

18:18 And we're like, And and it's weird because, you know,

18:20 you know there's nothing on text that you care about.

18:23 You know there's nothing on social media

18:24 that somebody's doing that is of even minor importance.

18:27 But you think about that when you're waiting

18:29 at a stoplight and you pull out your phone, right?

18:32 That's the number one reason.

18:33 The second reason is distraction from other

18:36 things you don't want to think about.

18:37 It's a distraction machine,

18:38 which is related to the third reason, which is boredom avoidance.

18:41 We hate boredom.

18:43 But boredom is unbelievably important for the human brain.

18:46 We're We're made to be bored.

18:48 When When we become bored, in other words,

18:49 when we put people into the fMRI and you say,

18:52 "Think about nothing." You can't do it.

18:55 You immediately your mind just starts wandering

18:57 and the default mode network of the brain becomes active,

19:00 which is important for you to understand the third

19:02 macronutrient we'll talk about in a minute, which is meaning.

19:05 And So, therefore, when you're distracting yourself to not be bored,

19:09 because boredom is uncomfortable.

19:10 But Mother Nature doesn't care if you don't like it.

19:13 Mother Nature does all kinds of things that we don't like.

19:16 We were just never able to avoid it.

19:18 Now we are.

19:19 So, the same way that, you know, we need pain for lots and lots of things.

19:23 We created analgesics that got that escalated in power

19:27 to the point we're able literally to get

19:29 rid of all of the pain and 100,000 people

19:31 died of drug overdoses last year as a result.

19:33 We're Homo sapiens.

19:34 We're incredibly ingenious at getting rid

19:36 of little problems and creating massive problems.

19:38 And that's what smartphones do today is to get

19:40 rid of boredom cuz we don't like it.

19:42 Dan Gilbert's experiments at Harvard on boredom,

19:46 he shows that when people have to sit in a room and do with nothing to do

19:50 except the option of pushing a button on a key

19:53 fob to to self-administer a painful electric shock,

19:56 that 25% of women choose to shock themselves rather than being bored,

20:00 and 2/3 of the dudes shock themselves painfully

20:04 rather than being bored for just 15 minutes.

20:07 Yeah, in the experiment, one guy shocked himself 190 times in 15 minutes.

20:11 Wow.

20:11 Yeah, I mean, he was a sick and twisted

20:13 freak and got thrown out of the experiment,

20:14 but you get my point that that that we hate boredom.

20:17 So, this we want the little dopamine bump.

20:20 We want to distract ourselves from things we don't want

20:22 to be thinking about right now cuz life is complicated,

20:25 and we don't want to be bored,

20:27 and those three things together mean that in your your missing

20:30 your life cuz it's Christmas morning and you're going So, that's a Exactly.

20:36 Exactly.

20:36 big problem.

20:37 And and and then, you know, thinking about like kids growing up with it.

20:40 Like, they're not even At least I have like a baseline.

20:43 Like, I remember.

20:45 [laughter] Yeah, you know, we remember the before times.

20:46 Yeah.

20:47 Yeah.

20:47 Um okay.

20:47 So, the satisfaction is the is the big one.

20:51 That's That's a big one, and it it's weird because it

20:54 actually leads to a a problem we haven't even discussed,

20:57 which is which is you can't keep it.

21:01 You want it.

21:01 It's so sweet, and you know, that this is this is a striver show.

21:04 It's transient.

21:05 This is a striver show.

21:06 I mean, this is like this is not a slacker show.

21:08 This is a striver show.

21:08 There's lots of slacker shows.

21:10 Yeah.

21:10 This isn't one of them.

21:11 No.

21:11 You know, Found My Fitness is not for It's like, "Yeah,

21:13 I'm going to I'm going to chill at the beach." No.

21:15 This is for People watching this are hardcore.

21:18 The problem that they have is called the striver's curse,

21:21 and the striver's curse is when you work

21:25 for that thing and you work for that thing

21:26 and you work for that thing cuz Mother Nature is telling you if you get it,

21:29 Ron, if you get it, it's going to be so nice forever.

21:32 You're going to enjoy it.

21:33 And then you get it, and you're like,

21:34 "Huh." Most Olympic athletes who win a medal have a have

21:38 a have a clinical depression in the wake of winning an Olympic medal.

21:43 It's like so weird.

21:44 And there's a reason for it.

21:45 We're wired for progress.

21:47 Progress brings tons and tons of of just absolute enjoyment and satisfaction.

21:53 It's wonderful to make progress.

21:54 We're designed for progress.

21:56 And so, we incorrectly assert or or or believe that when

22:00 we get to the goal toward our progress, the the you know,

22:04 we get to Hispaniola with the ship,

22:07 that and then we'll we'll have that ebullience,

22:10 that joy forever, but that's not how the limbic system is supposed to work.

22:14 That's a lie.

22:16 And then when it's kind of huh, it's okay.

22:18 It's okay.

22:19 We're like, "Life is meaningless.

22:21 Life has no satisfaction.

22:22 Life isn't good." And and and and so,

22:25 you say, "I guess a billion dollars wasn't enough.

22:28 I guess I needed another billion dollars.

22:30 I guess I needed another Academy Award.

22:33 I guess I needed another person praising me and admiring me.

22:38 I guess I need another person who says she loves me.

22:42 I need a new mate, whatever it happens to be.

22:44 And that's the hedonic treadmill more and more

22:46 and more and more and more and more.

22:47 The goal the goalpost keeps moving, and you get this diminishing satisfaction.

22:52 That's why you need some metaphysics to solve that to sort that one out.

22:55 How do you break out of that?

22:56 How do you break out of that?

22:57 Yeah.

22:57 You break out of that by understanding that the brain,

23:00 human brain, gives us options beyond our animal impulses.

23:05 My dog, Chucho, is a good boy.

23:06 He can't break out of that.

23:08 Yeah, he can't break out of that cycle, right?

23:09 He doesn't even know he's in the cycle as a matter of fact, right?

23:12 And so, it's all animal impulses.

23:14 His prefrontal cortex is way for thin.

23:17 It's like a tiny tiny little thing.

23:19 Mine is 30% of my brain by weight,

23:21 and it gives me the option of animal impulses,

23:24 run run run run run, another billion, another medal, another you know,

23:28 3 lb lost on the scale, or my moral aspirations.

23:33 I can stand up to Mother Nature and say, "Nah-uh.

23:36 I No, no, I'm out.

23:37 I'm out." And the way to do that is to is

23:40 to realize that satisfaction that lasts is not about having more.

23:43 It's about wanting less.

23:45 That's how it works.

23:46 Your your satisfaction is all the things that you have divided by what you want.

23:52 Have divided by wants.

23:54 Don't always work the numerator because you'll work yourself to death.

23:58 You'll become a workaholic, success-addicted,

24:00 self-objectifying creature of the world.

24:05 You'll ruin your relationships and be frustrated.

24:08 You need just as much to manage your wants cuz when you manage the denominator,

24:13 when your wants go down, your satisfaction rises and stays high.

24:17 Yeah.

24:18 That's what we need.

24:19 Okay.

24:19 So, how You've spoken about these four sort of false I don't know, idols

24:25 idols, yeah.

24:26 that that people kind of substitute and think

24:28 will bring them Maybe they're they are the wants.

24:31 Yeah.

24:31 They will bring them the happiness.

24:33 Yeah.

24:33 Um I absolutely like have fought at least two of them for sure for me.

24:39 Yeah.

24:39 Um but can you talk a little bit about these like, you know, four

24:43 Yeah, the four idols.

24:44 Yeah, and why why why do people think they will bring them happiness?

24:47 Yeah, I know.

24:47 I mean, all of the really

24:48 interesting ideas in behavioral science and neuroscience,

24:51 they all kind of come from the old philosophers, it turns out, right?

24:54 I mean, there is nothing new under the sun.

24:56 And Aristotle was talking about, you know, what beguiles humankind.

25:02 And the greatest Aristotelian thinker of the more modern times,

25:05 which is still not that modern, was Thomas Aquinas.

25:08 You know, and Thomas Aquinas writes writes the Summa Theologiae in 1265.

25:12 This magisterial text bringing Platonic and especially

25:16 Aristotelian ideas to more modern audiences.

25:18 And he was an unbelievably good behavioral scientist.

25:21 Also a great saint.

25:22 You know, I'm a Catholic, and so I love Thomas Aquinas.

25:24 He's the best.

25:26 But what he talked about was the idols

25:28 that that distract us from what we truly want.

25:31 And so, at you know, as a I'm a religious person,

25:34 I you know, and and Aquinas said, "Well, you want God." Even if you can't

25:37 quite put your finger on it, you want God.

25:40 You want the permanent truth, the real thing, the ultimate numinosity,

25:46 the the end and the end of all things.

25:49 That's what you want.

25:49 You want it, but man, it's inconvenient.

25:52 There's a lot of rules, man.

25:54 There's a lot of one-sided conversations.

25:56 You don't really know if it's out there.

25:58 And so, you look at things that that seem to have kind of a divine nature.

26:01 Those are the idols on Earth that will attract you.

26:05 And he said there's four,

26:06 and this is unbelievably good science because it turns out

26:09 that these are the buckets that people still fall into.

26:11 He just knew, right?

26:12 We have We have surveys and data and experiments

26:15 to find what he was talking about in 1265.

26:18 So, there goes my whole PhD.

26:19 Anyway, they are money, resources, power, which is influence.

26:26 Not evil.

26:27 It's just influence over other people.

26:28 People do what you want.

26:29 Pleasure, which we already talked about.

26:31 And pleasure, by the way, is not just feeling good.

26:33 It's also comfort, like the comfy covers instead of going to the gym,

26:38 or security, which is checking your stock portfolio every day.

26:41 Same thing.

26:42 Haha.

26:43 And a lot of people are like, "Ah, I don't care about pleasure.

26:45 Let's see how rich I am today." Uh-uh.

26:48 It's the same thing.

26:48 It's working the same circuits.

26:50 And the last is honor.

26:52 And and that's that's an ancient way of saying fame.

26:55 Right?

26:55 Fame, admiration, prestige.

26:58 That it's like wanting to be liked and accepted by the right people.

27:01 Yeah, bring it on.

27:02 you and I are academics fundamentally.

27:03 And so, you know, it's not just like any idiot.

27:05 It's it's people who know.

27:07 Yeah.

27:08 Right?

27:08 That's what it comes down to.

27:09 But there's also that the admiration of strangers,

27:11 which has all sorts of neurochemical benefits that we

27:14 get that go back to our place-to-scene brains.

27:16 That we really want that.

27:17 Makes you insane.

27:19 So, those are the big four, money, power, pleasure, and fame, fundamentally.

27:23 Everybody is most beguiled by one.

27:25 And when they know what their weakness is, they have pure strength.

27:30 Cuz if you know your weakness, you can actually fight against it,

27:33 avoid a bunch of errors, and understand what you most regret.

27:38 That's why this is really important.

27:39 So, I have a game with my MBA students called What's My Idol.

27:42 You want to play?

27:43 Yeah.

27:43 All right.

27:44 Let's find out Ronda's idol.

27:46 And you probably know.

27:47 I have two, I think.

27:49 Yeah, but we'll find out which one is bigger.

27:50 Okay.

27:51 All right.

27:51 Okay.

27:51 The way to do this, and as you know, in in in in the way that we do

27:55 our work is when you're trying to select something, it's better to eliminate.

27:58 That gives you a truer understanding.

28:01 Eliminating things that it's not always gives you more focus on what it is.

28:04 So, of the four, we're going to look at which one you'd get rid of first,

28:08 which doesn't mean you don't have it.

28:10 It just means you go to the population mean.

28:12 So, for example, if you say,

28:13 "I don't care about money." That doesn't mean you're poor.

28:15 It just means you're the average American,

28:17 which is pretty great by world standards, but it sucks to the striver.

28:23 It's like being the average is the worst, right?

28:26 That's like torture if it's your idol.

28:28 Okay?

28:29 So, that's how it works.

28:29 So, you have money, power, pleasure, fame.

28:31 Which one do you get rid of first?

28:34 Pleasure.

28:34 And why?

28:36 Um I think because I'm a striver.

28:40 You're an austere type?

28:41 Yeah.

28:42 You're not You're not You're You're You're up at dawn before dawn.

28:45 I mean, I'm I work I like to work.

28:48 Yeah.

28:48 I like to Yeah.

28:49 I like to get that.

28:50 Mhm.

28:51 I mean, I guess the satisfaction.

28:53 Yeah.

28:53 Now, watch your distraction cuz your distraction can be a form of pleasure.

28:59 Okay.

28:59 If you're distracting yourself from things that are uncomfortable,

29:03 that means you have a comfort idol.

29:05 And so, a lot of strivers actually do

29:07 fall into I'm not saying that that's the case,

29:09 but that's something that's actually kind of keep your eye on.

29:11 And I believe it because you've been super successful doing all kinds of I mean,

29:15 you got you you your your academic work is impeccable.

29:18 Your show is successful.

29:19 You're super fit, all that stuff.

29:21 Your wife, your mom, you're doing it all.

29:23 I believe it.

29:24 I believe What are you sacrificing?

29:25 Feeling good.

29:26 Okay, because it's not important to you.

29:27 Good.

29:28 Got it.

29:29 What's next?

29:31 Um probably Ooh, it's hard.

29:36 It's that's that's a hard one because Yeah, because all of them are nice.

29:39 Yeah, I mean, We all like all of them.

29:41 There's a reason they're idols.

29:42 Well, also, I think maybe the fame is the path to influence and money.

29:49 Yeah, could be.

29:50 Could be, but I'm talking intrinsic desire for each one

29:55 of these things as opposed to an instrumental desire for it.

29:59 Okay.

29:59 So, which of these things is your the your your your intrinsic

30:03 thing that that it feels like if you got there,

30:06 you'd be really happy even though you know it won't.

30:08 You're smart.

30:09 Yeah.

30:10 But that thing that will like not, yeah.

30:12 Which which is the next one that you don't care

30:13 about you get rid of, you think if you had to?

30:15 Cuz we have to, we're eliminating.

30:17 Fame.

30:18 Yeah.

30:19 And fame means, you know,

30:20 people admiring you and stopping you in the airport or, you know,

30:23 the right academics going, I just your work is so great.

30:25 Cuz you're still publishing academic journal articles from time to time.

30:28 I mean, you're doing that work.

30:29 I mean, you're doing that that I mean,

30:31 that serious stuff and you're doing it for a reason.

30:33 Oh.

30:33 You want to you want to end It's so hard, influence and fame are like,

30:37 you know, cuz I also want to influence.

30:39 Yeah.

30:39 Yeah.

30:40 I really do.

30:41 Yeah, yeah.

30:41 Yeah, yeah.

30:41 But but I believe it that you're actually not egotistically driven.

30:45 I believe it that you're not It's it's it's like you said, it's a pathway to get

30:50 Yeah, and I see that because I know your public profile.

30:52 And your public profile isn't like internet influencer par excellence,

30:57 where, you know, more clicks, more clicks, more clicks from strangers.

31:00 And so, I I believe it.

31:02 I actually believe it.

31:03 And and so, that's good.

31:04 But now it now it gets difficult because what we're

31:08 now what we're talking about is money and and and influence.

31:11 Money and influence are the people.

31:12 By the way, this is not bad.

31:14 There's many beautiful good things you can do with money.

31:16 I'm a free enterprise guy.

31:19 I mean, I believe in a free economy where people

31:21 can I just I just love living in a free

31:23 society where successful people can make a bunch of money

31:26 and create jobs and opportunity and growth and philanthropy.

31:28 I love it.

31:28 I'm so happy to be in in that kind of environment.

31:31 I'm so grateful for it.

31:33 But I also recognize that when it's an idol,

31:35 it can it can control you like anything else.

31:38 So, which one if you had to get rid of one of them and only one was left,

31:43 which one would you get rid of?

31:46 Influencing others?

31:48 Money.

31:50 Money.

31:51 Did you grow up with money?

31:52 No.

31:52 Did you grow up with no money?

31:54 Just in just middle class?

31:55 Yeah.

31:55 Did you grow up poor?

31:56 Yeah.

31:57 Yeah.

31:58 I grew up poor.

31:59 Um but I was I was in the best private schools because I Cuz you're smart.

32:05 got in.

32:05 I got in.

32:07 [laughter] And you had good parents.

32:08 And I had good parents.

32:09 Yeah.

32:09 Yeah, intact family.

32:10 financial No, not in not full time.

32:13 Yeah.

32:14 Uh-huh.

32:14 Yeah.

32:15 That's what I was friends.

32:16 We still had family vacations together to keep the unit together.

32:20 Mom and dad went on vacation together when they were divorced?

32:22 Yeah, at least for a few years until my dad married my stepmom.

32:27 Yeah, and you have a good relationship with her, too.

32:29 Yeah.

32:29 So, you had good parents who cared about you.

32:32 Were they educated people?

32:34 My mom got her education a little bit later in life, but not not really, no.

32:38 My dad my dad's like a blue collar worker.

32:41 and a hard worker.

32:42 Hard hard worker, for sure.

32:43 Like work like a lot.

32:45 Good man.

32:45 Good man.

32:46 Yeah, good man.

32:47 Imperfect cuz we all are, right?

32:48 You know, it's like his marriage didn't work out,

32:51 you know, like you know, but that's life.

32:53 It's kind of how that works.

32:54 So, people have different backgrounds around that.

32:57 And some people who have the money idol,

32:59 they generally come from two different camps, real poverty or real wealth.

33:03 And real poverty turns into a money

33:05 idol because you're afraid of going back there.

33:08 And real wealth becomes a money idol because that's how you understand yourself.

33:14 And you don't want to become alienated from your sense of self.

33:17 So, the people who are least likely to have it

33:18 are just kind of right in the middle, sort of indistinct.

33:20 Like, yeah, got it sometimes, don't know.

33:22 But everybody's different.

33:24 But what this really defines, of course, is what will,

33:27 which is not there's nothing bad about influence.

33:28 On the contrary, you use your influence to great good.

33:31 Even you've influenced me.

33:32 It's made me better.

33:34 But if it runs you, if that influence becomes an intrinsic motivation for you,

33:40 that's the thing that will lead you

33:42 when you're not guarding against it to change

33:46 the way that you relate to the people you most care about in your life,

33:48 your husband, your son.

33:50 It'll you'll you'll cut corners, not ethically.

33:53 You'll just cut corners in the things that actually mean more to you than that.

33:57 And that's what absolutely always leads to regret.

34:00 It always leads to regret.

34:01 You know, it's your those are resume virtues.

34:04 You'll you'll work.

34:05 You'll work because you want to get that influence.

34:07 That's right.

34:08 And those are resume virtues, not eulogy virtues.

34:10 My friend David Brooks writes about

34:12 this that about resume versus eulogy virtues.

34:15 You know, resume virtues are the things you

34:17 would not want people to say at your funeral.

34:19 He had 5 million miles on United.

34:23 You know, [laughter] it's like that's not what you want them to say.

34:25 Which it and and and and that's the danger is what it comes down to.

34:30 That also tells me something probably about your childhood.

34:37 Which everybody's childhood is I mean, I'm I'm not,

34:40 you know, of the trauma school like that.

34:42 But but we're we're path dependent for a lot of things.

34:45 You probably are super good student growing up, right?

34:47 Great student.

34:48 You're probably really good in sports.

34:50 And you probably got a lot of attention

34:51 from adults when you did things that were really amazing.

34:55 I got a lot of attention.

34:56 Yeah, I was like a superstar on the jump rope team, theater, in commercial.

35:01 Like, yeah, I was in commercials.

35:03 Yeah.

35:05 You know, I I was getting I was getting that fame.

35:08 Yeah.

35:08 Well, you were getting noticed for things that were, you know,

35:12 for your ability, for your looks, whatever it happened to be, right?

35:16 That wires a kid's brain to not to to to misunderstand love.

35:22 Love is a grace.

35:23 It's a free gift freely given.

35:25 It's not something you can earn.

35:27 You can't literally can't earn anybody's love.

35:30 You can't even earn your own love.

35:32 You can't earn God's love.

35:33 You can't earn love.

35:34 But when you're a little kid and you get

35:36 attention and affection from grown-ups because of what you do,

35:40 that will teach you you will synaptically wire the idea that love can be earned.

35:45 And then you grow up trying to earn people's love by doing amazing things.

35:49 That usually manifests in either power or fame.

35:52 That generally speaking, it manifests in either the fame idol or the power idol.

35:56 And by the way, me, too.

35:59 Me, too.

36:00 I was the best classical musician among all the kids growing up.

36:04 I had really good grades and all that, but that's not what was my thing.

36:06 I wanted to be the world's greatest French

36:07 horn player from when I was 8 years old.

36:10 All I wanted to do was to play the French horn.

36:11 I was better than everybody at it.

36:13 And and I had this like from grown-ups all the time.

36:16 And the result of it was that it was the same thing.

36:19 And I grew up as just super success addicted,

36:22 meaning that when you win, you get that bump.

36:25 You get get winning, winning, winning, winning,

36:27 suc- succeeding, getting noticed, whatever it happens to be.

36:31 Um that's when I got my parents' attention.

36:33 That's when I got my teachers' attention.

36:35 And the result of it is that now I'm 61 years old and I'm still chasing,

36:40 chasing, chasing, chasing, chasing.

36:43 And it has everything to do with the fact that deep down,

36:45 my great fear is if I stop, no one will love me.

36:50 [laughter] We're just little kids.

36:52 Right.

36:52 Right?

36:52 We're just little kids.

36:53 But that's power.

36:55 That's power.

36:56 I mean, just that that power has helped my marriage a lot.

37:01 That's helped my relationship with my adult

37:03 kids and now grandkids a lot, actually.

37:06 That's why it really really matters to know what our idols are.

37:09 And let's say, you know, if you know what your idol is and then you can

37:13 like think about that and actively try not to I mean,

37:17 like what sort of exercises like you know,

37:20 can you do to kind of like is it the reverse bucket list, right?

37:23 I'm right now you're just going to Are you

37:24 going to put them Maybe you can talk about them.

37:26 Yeah, well, the reverse bucket list is just the obvious one.

37:28 The bucket list is an incredibly deleterious way

37:30 to set up your life because it's basically to say,

37:32 when I achieve these worldly things, then I will be happy.

37:35 And this is what I'm going to do this year.

37:36 And all it does is make you more attached.

37:38 It's like it's like anti-Buddhism.

37:41 It's kind of how it winds up.

37:43 And so, I have a reverse bucket list,

37:44 which is to name my attachments and my ambitions and cravings and desires,

37:48 which I'm not ashamed of.

37:49 They're all They're not None of them are like shameful or gross.

37:53 But I don't want to be managed by my desires.

37:55 I want to manage my desires.

37:56 And so, I write them down and cross them out and say, "Easy come, easy go.

37:59 This year, I want to do this and this and this." I "Easy come, easy go.

38:04 I am a human being.

38:06 I am a child of God.

38:08 I am a husband to my wife.

38:09 I'm a grandfather.

38:11 I'm all these things I really care about.

38:13 And maybe those worldly things will happen and maybe they won't.

38:15 And I'm going to be just fine.

38:17 No, I'm going to be better than fine."

38:19 That's how the reverse bucket list actually works.

38:21 And it's I'm free.

38:23 I'm free for the first time.

38:24 That's one of the exercises that helps you with your idols.

38:26 The second is you got to have a buddy on this.

38:29 You know, I recommend a spouse.

38:31 Say, "Hold me to this.

38:33 This is my weakness.

38:34 You know my weakness, right?" And and the problem is when your spouse

38:38 actually is codependent and you're in your idolatry.

38:42 I mean, if you have if you're a if you're a fame idol and your and your spouse,

38:46 you know, gives you admiration only when

38:49 you're getting the admiration of other people,

38:50 that's a bad situation.

38:52 But that's not the situation with my wife.

38:53 On the contrary, you know, my my my idol is honor.

38:56 Absolutely.

38:56 Absolutely all day long.

38:57 It's so dumb.

38:59 It's so ridiculous and laughable.

39:02 And my wife's like, "You're doing that thing.

39:04 You're doing that thing." It's like you want

39:06 somebody to be to think you're think you're smart.

39:09 You're just trying to do something for the approbation of strangers.

39:12 Be here now, man.

39:13 She understands me.

39:14 And that kind of accountability is really

39:16 really important for being a full person.

39:19 What about, you know,

39:19 and this is all coming back to being able to obviously manage your mood as well.

39:24 You know, and it's something that I've I've read, you know, from you,

39:28 is this gratitude list, where and I and I haven't really done it like written.

39:34 I haven't but I'm thinking about it now.

39:36 Where it's like, you know, what are you thankful for?

39:40 And how if you can think about what you're thankful for, maybe that helps

39:45 temper that wanting of one of your idols or or even the social comparison,

39:52 you know, which we can talk about.

39:54 the envy, for

39:56 and you know, for me it's like you know, I know people that have just in youth,

40:01 like young young adults just got cancer and are dead.

40:05 Yeah.

40:06 You know, so health is a big one to be grateful for.

40:09 And I have others, obviously my family, my son,

40:11 my husband, the love we have, like oh my gosh,

40:14 I'm so I'm just it it blessed in so many ways,

40:18 you know, and I have so much to be grateful for.

40:21 And I don't think about it enough.

40:23 I'm constantly thinking about what I don't have and how I want to get it,

40:27 you know, and it's toxic.

40:29 Yeah, but that's why we're successful as a species, is because of ingratitude.

40:34 It's because we don't have enough.

40:35 That's why we strive.

40:37 When you think about it, and again, we will talk about how to be more grateful,

40:40 but let's recognize that this is a perfect example of how

40:43 evolutionary biology has made us successful as a species and miserable.

40:48 Cuz mother nature doesn't care.

40:49 So, we are made to be resentful, ungrateful, suspicious, hostile creatures.

40:56 That, you know, there's literally more space in the brain,

40:59 more tissue develop devoted in the limbic

41:01 system to negative emotions than to positive emotions.

41:04 Positive emotions are nice to have.

41:05 Negative emotions keep you alive.

41:08 You know, that snap of the twig

41:09 behind you while you're walking across the savanna.

41:11 You know, your brain does not immediately say "I bet that's

41:14 a good friend here to say hello." You take off running.

41:18 And and then it's like, "Oh, it's just my friend.

41:19 Haha haha haha." We are made to be resentful, to get more more more more,

41:25 because that actually allows us to advance as a species and pass on our genes.

41:30 And and the the result of that is that left to our devices,

41:33 we're unbelievably ungrateful all the time.

41:36 And just the ingratitude I mean, the grinding ingratitude.

41:39 It's like I I I literally said the other I found myself saying the other day,

41:43 "You know, first class in United Airlines has really gone downhill." [laughter]

41:48 It's so absurd, right?

41:51 And that's me.

41:52 I mean, I'm just uh and this is what I teach.

41:55 This is my stuff and I still do that.

41:57 That's our tendency, which means you have to override it.

42:01 And the way to override it is by being conscious of it.

42:03 Once again, you can do animal impulses, you can do moral aspirations,

42:06 you choose, but you got to do the work.

42:08 I mean, you can sit on the couch and eat Häagen-Dazs and binge Netflix,

42:12 or you can get up and do leg day.

42:14 I mean, you choose.

42:15 Moral aspiration is leg day, is what it And so,

42:18 everybody watching found my fitness, they understand that, right?

42:21 But the same thing is true for every part of your life.

42:24 There's a leg day analog to everything that goes on in our lives.

42:29 And and gratitude the gratitude listing procedure,

42:32 any of the the exercises that I recommend about gratitude, that's what it is.

42:36 It's getting up off the couch of resentment and going into the gym of blessings,

42:42 which is hard to do and it's not natural.

42:44 So, the way I ask my students to do it is to override

42:47 their tendencies by writing a list of the five things you're most grateful for.

42:50 Sunday afternoon.

42:52 And and I don't care how stupid it is.

42:53 I mean, right now, you know what I'm kind of grateful for, Rhonda?

42:56 The Seahawks are doing really well.

42:58 I grew up in Seattle.

43:00 I love that I just I'm like like I'm not a big but, you know,

43:04 I I can't change my heart.

43:05 I want the Seahawks to win the Super Bowl.

43:07 And I was really grateful last weekend and I saw that.

43:09 That's so awesome.

43:10 That's great.

43:10 So stupid, I got it.

43:13 But I'm going to put it on my gratitude list.

43:15 And I'm grateful for but and big things, too.

43:17 I'm grateful for my faith.

43:18 I'm grateful for my family.

43:20 I'm great Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:21 Five things.

43:23 Now, each day during the week, take just a couple of minutes and focus on each

43:28 one of these things before you go to bed.

43:30 Before you go to bed.

43:31 And I have a whole night time protocol of things

43:34 that we can actually do for better happiness hygiene,

43:37 as well as better sleep and, you know,

43:39 proper functioning of the pineal gland and all

43:41 the stuff that we talk about in our business.

43:43 And and then every Sunday update it.

43:46 On average, the average person after 10 weeks will be 12% happier.

43:51 It's just overriding your tendencies.

43:53 It's what it comes down to.

43:54 It's so beautiful that we don't we're not we're not,

43:57 you know, subjugated to our animal impulses.

43:59 I just love that about life.

44:00 This is I mean, this is great for adults.

44:02 How do you teach that to children?

44:05 Well, the way that to do that is to actually model it.

44:08 Is to model it.

44:08 Everything all that matters is what you do.

44:11 It really doesn't matter what you say.

44:13 So so, people ask me all the time, traditionally religious people say,

44:17 "I get out in the world today, everybody's wandering away from the faith.

44:21 What do I do to keep my kids in the faith?" And I say,

44:24 "It doesn't matter what you say.

44:25 Don't harangue your kids." There's this old saying,

44:29 "Don't talk to your kids about God.

44:30 Talk to God about your kids." Right?

44:33 But the way to keep and this is

44:35 a very well empirically verified truth about about religious faith,

44:40 but it makes the broader point.

44:42 What have them see you practice faith.

44:45 Because that's what they will model.

44:46 That's what they see.

44:46 This is the the wiring is established.

44:49 If you don't want your kids to to scream swear words out

44:52 of the window of the car in traffic in Southern California, don't do that.

44:56 If you don't want your kids to be drunks, don't be a drunk, for God's sake.

45:00 And if you want to raise them in the faith,

45:02 then practice the faith assiduously, seriously,

45:05 with your heart, with your whole heart.

45:07 And they the data say they absolutely will.

45:10 I mean, not 100%, but that's the only

45:13 thing that really raises the odds materially.

45:15 So, if you want your kids to be more grateful, be more grateful.

45:18 If you want your kids to be less ungrateful

45:21 about the beautiful life that they have, be less ungrateful.

45:25 Don't see them have have you grousing and complaining

45:27 and just being kind of grumpy all the time.

45:30 And and and one of the ways that you do that is

45:32 by talking to them at dinner about the things that you're grateful for.

45:35 Don't bug them, but what are you grateful for?

45:37 You know what I'm grateful for today?

45:39 I'm so grateful that we have this time together.

45:41 You know, I'm so great Look at the sunset.

45:42 I mean, you're in Southern California.

45:44 Like we live here in December and January,

45:46 and it's it's actually really easy to be grateful

45:49 for the sunset out here when you're not here all the time,

45:52 cuz you don't habituate to it.

45:53 That's how you do it.

45:55 Um I love this.

45:56 And then I think also maybe bringing them pulling them into the the Sunday,

46:00 you know, writing down.

46:01 And just like maybe they don't have to do You don't have to force them to do it,

46:03 but they can see you do it.

46:05 And, you know, again it on the fridge.

46:07 Yours on the fridge.

46:08 Yeah, we just We're actually my husband just

46:10 ordered this like really nice digital board for like,

46:14 you know, schedules and like phrases and things we want to put on.

46:17 And so, that's a great idea.

46:19 to things to really to remember, for sure.

46:20 And they see Mom is practicing.

46:22 She does that thing.

46:23 Bob does that thing.

46:24 Right.

46:25 And and and Mom is happier after she's after she does that thing.

46:28 I want to You brought up something about like,

46:31 you know, how humans are wired to kind of be ungrateful,

46:34 to be like I mean, competitive, to you know,

46:37 we've got this like this is this is the survival.

46:40 This is how we're surviving and and getting better.

46:43 Um how does that relate to like

46:45 people's emotional baselines and like understanding cuz obviously,

46:48 you know, there are there's more of the anxious phenotype.

46:50 There's more of the positive like my my my late mentor, Bruce Ames.

46:54 I mean, he was rose-colored glasses.

46:56 Like everything was positive.

46:57 And he was like, "Oh, just like Unbelievably annoying.

47:00 I just like I How are you like this, you know?

47:03 But also very successful.

47:05 So, how does like understanding your emotional

47:08 baseline come into helping you manage your emotions?

47:10 Yeah, that's such a smart question,

47:11 because we don't all have the same obviously the same emotional baseline.

47:15 And we beat ourselves up if we're naturally grumpy people.

47:18 But it turns out that there's a lot of research on the the natural

47:22 functioning of the limbic system and how it how it affects our personalities.

47:26 There's a great test called the positive affect negative affect sequence, PANAS.

47:30 And people can take it online.

47:31 Or they can actually go to my website,

47:33 cuz I have a thing called the happiness scale,

47:35 and it will look at your natural affect profile.

47:38 There's four affect profiles that will that will divide up

47:41 positive and negative intensity of emotion that we naturally fall into.

47:46 And and all of us fall into one of these quadrants, as it turns out.

47:50 And the reason is because it's the the functioning

47:53 of the limbic system is different between different people.

47:55 It's not because you had a crummy childhood.

47:57 It it most of it is genetic.

47:59 Most of this stuff is between 40 and 80% genetic

48:02 on and we know this from identical twins separated at birth.

48:04 You know those identical twin studies they did

48:06 at University of Minnesota all those for all those years.

48:09 And then, you know, we want to be in charge of everything.

48:11 We're not, right?

48:13 So [clears throat] much is is genetic.

48:15 But you got to know it so you can manage your genetics with good habits.

48:18 So, this research [clears throat] it it

48:20 talks about positive emotionality and negative emotionality,

48:24 positive and negative affect, which is just, you know,

48:27 the fancy way of talking about this intensity of emotions that we have.

48:31 You can be above average on both, below average on both,

48:35 or above average on one and below average on the other.

48:38 Those are the four quadrants.

48:40 If you're above average on positive and negative,

48:44 that's the mad scientist profile.

48:46 That means you feel things super deeply.

48:48 It's everything is great or terrible.

48:50 And and, you know, it's you know,

48:52 most CEOs and entrepreneurs are the mad scientist profile.

48:55 You might be one.

48:56 You're either this or the next one.

48:59 Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to figure out which one.

49:01 I need to take the test.

49:01 So, you've got high positive emotionality,

49:03 but I don't know about your high negative emotionality,

49:06 cuz I haven't seen you under,

49:07 you know, like when you first wake up in the morning or or how you,

49:10 you know, I can judge things.

49:11 I can want it to be Yeah, you can you're obviously very meticulous about detail,

49:16 but I don't know about the intensity of your negative emotions as you do so.

49:19 So, that's what I'd have to see.

49:20 We could take the test and we could actually find this out.

49:23 That's a great profile for leadership.

49:25 That's a great profile for, you know, just being completely alive in the world,

49:29 but it can be unbearable to your partner.

49:31 You know, it's not that easy to be married to a um a mad scientist.

49:35 I, you know, my wife reminded me of that this very morning.

49:40 [laughter] Matter of fact, it's like, "You're You're just exhausting me."

49:45 [clears throat]

49:44 What people want is high positive and low negative,

49:47 which doesn't mean you don't have any bad feelings.

49:48 It just means the intensity of negative emotions is lower.

49:51 That's the cheerleader profile.

49:53 That might be you.

49:54 I don't know.

49:55 And then the And the So That's Bruce.

49:59 Bruce Ames, yeah.

50:00 So, the cheerleader profile is one who is

50:02 quite a buoyant but takes in stride the negative.

50:06 With real philosophy takes the negative, right?

50:09 Things are They They tend to be pretty optimistic and very hopeful,

50:12 which are different.

50:13 I mean, hope is a a virtue.

50:15 Optimism is a prediction.

50:17 And and they don't [clears throat] always make the best CEOs

50:20 because they they're not very good at receiving or giving negative feedback.

50:25 And so, your your worst boss was probably was probably

50:29 a cheerleader and they come in your office and they say,

50:33 "Rhonda, you're the linchpin of this whole company." And you're like,

50:36 "This is great." You're calling your husband.

50:38 I realize you haven't, you know, had a job like that.

50:40 Neither have I.

50:41 And then and then you hear them saying the same

50:43 thing to the to the lazy in the next office.

50:48 [laughter] It's like, "Wait a second.

50:49 I thought I was special." And that's bad leadership.

50:51 The other two are low low.

50:53 These are low affect people,

50:55 which means that they they're they're That's the judge profile.

50:59 A lot of surgeons, you and I have known a lot of surgeons.

51:02 Surgeons are like this, right?

51:04 Uh fighter pilots are like this.

51:05 These are people who are low affects.

51:07 Like, "Whatever, bring it on." You don't want somebody to cut you open and go,

51:09 "Oh my god!" That's not what you want, right?

51:13 [laughter] You want somebody like, "I can take that out." "Can do it.

51:16 Done it 50 times.

51:17 I can do it a 51st." And then the judge is

51:20 somebody who's not emotionally super high affect when they actually see things,

51:25 seeing strong things.

51:26 And the worst one for people,

51:28 but good for society, is high negative low positive.

51:31 That's the poet.

51:32 These are people who feel very strongly negative emotions,

51:35 fear, anger, disgust, especially sadness.

51:39 [clears throat] And they feel positive emotions at a very low simmer.

51:42 These people tend to be very uh creative.

51:45 And part of that is This is

51:47 interesting research on the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex,

51:50 which is the part of the brain that's involved in rumination.

51:54 So, people who have clinical depression,

51:56 high activity in the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex.

51:59 And when there's more serotonin in the synapse,

52:01 you find that that what it does is it

52:03 lowers the activity in the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex.

52:06 A lot of this stuff is so black

52:07 boxed that it's contested in neuroscience like everything else.

52:10 But it's interesting because that's the same thing

52:11 that you find with people who are creative.

52:14 A lot of VLPFC activity with low serotonin in the synapse.

52:18 It's the same thing when people are falling in love.

52:21 When they fall in love, there's a big dip in serotonin.

52:23 It looks like clinical depression, as a matter of fact.

52:26 And the reason is you want lots of activity

52:28 in the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex cuz they're bonding to each other.

52:31 They're doing stupid things like sending 50 texts

52:34 in an hour that are humiliating and ridiculous because

52:37 their brain is working like a deeply clinically

52:39 depressed person as they bond to the other person.

52:42 That's why poets are depressive, creative, and romantic.

52:48 It's all the same thing.

52:49 And that's why we need them, but they suffer.

52:51 They suffer more depression.

52:52 They suffer more anxiety than the rest of us.

52:55 But that means that we we need to love

52:57 them more because we need them in our society.

53:00 Okay, so understanding the your emotional baseline, Yeah.

53:03 how does that help you manage your mood?

53:05 Because when you know your emotional baseline,

53:08 you know that this is your natural proclivity and you can actually take steps.

53:12 So, for me, as a mad scientist,

53:15 my problem, generally speaking, is not insufficient happiness.

53:19 It's excessive unhappiness.

53:21 So, all of my protocols, my science-based protocols for self-management,

53:25 are dedicated to managing my high negative affect levels.

53:29 That's especially acute from when I wake up in the morning until noon.

53:33 I think that's This is This is me.

53:35 Yeah.

53:36 Yeah, yeah.

53:36 So, you wake up.

53:37 I have to take And then after that, when your day wears on, then you're like,

53:40 "Okay, I I can dig it." It's It's actually better.

53:43 And and so And And that's actually

53:45 neurochemically very common is what we actually find.

53:48 And so, the result of that is that when you know your affect profile,

53:51 you know which levers to push.

53:53 Managing happiness and managing unhappiness are not the same thing.

53:57 So, I'll give you an example.

53:59 When I talk to somebody and I say,

54:00 "You go to the gym?" You can't tell just by looking?

54:03 And they're like, "Yeah, you know, yeah,

54:05 but I'm inconsistent." What Anybody who tells

54:08 me that does not have high negative affect.

54:11 The reason is because going to the gym is

54:13 one of the best ways to manage negative affect.

54:15 And and people who don't have high negative affect,

54:18 they go to the gym and they're like, "I don't feel better." "I know,

54:20 I got slightly better biceps, but I don't feel better." You go to the gym

54:23 because you feel better, but you don't know.

54:25 So, people will say, "Oh, it makes me so happy to work out." No, it doesn't.

54:29 It makes you less unhappy to work out.

54:31 That's what it is.

54:32 And it's a healthy way to do it.

54:34 The unhealthy ways to manage your negative affect are

54:36 drugs and alcohol and workaholism or scrolling social media,

54:41 distracting yourself.

54:42 The The The healthy ways to do it

54:44 are developing your spiritual life and or working out,

54:49 picking up heavy things, and running around.

54:51 Yeah.

54:51 That's an important thing to understand.

54:53 So, almost everybody who's like a super gym rat, like you and me, Yeah.

54:58 high negative affect.

55:00 So, that's great.

55:01 Exercise and that That's what I was going to get to.

55:03 I mean, that's one of the best, you know, ways to to manage the unhappiness.

55:06 You're right.

55:06 Like, the the reason I exercise is for my brain.

55:10 Like, I have to do it Right.

55:12 for my mood, too.

55:14 Like, just making sure that I'm not seeing more negative.

55:17 Do you work out first thing in the morning?

55:19 Yes.

55:19 Yeah.

55:19 Yeah.

55:21 [laughter] The classic thing for high negative affect people.

55:23 Because the first Is it the first thing you do?

55:24 Yeah, it's the first thing I do.

55:25 What time?

55:26 Um usually like It depends.

55:28 Uh 8:00, 8:30.

55:30 Because you have a little You have little kids.

55:31 to do the school, like all that.

55:33 I wake up and have to get him ready and all that.

55:35 What about 10 years ago?

55:38 Were you awake Were you still working out when the

55:40 go before I would work out before I went into the lab.

55:43 Okay, yeah.

55:43 And I started doing the sauna before I went into lab because

55:45 it was the only way I could deal with going into the lab.

55:48 Yeah, I got it.

55:48 I got it.

55:49 No, I get it.

55:49 So, you were probably waking up at 4:30 in those days

55:51 and working out from 5:00 to 6:00 or something.

55:53 No, cuz I was going to the lab at 10:00.

55:55 Oh, I get it.

55:56 Okay.

55:57 [laughter] It depends on the lab.

55:57 Your results may differ.

55:59 Yeah.

55:59 It really does.

56:00 But you're you you do Yeah, and and I have very,

56:04 very strong protocols that are science-based and dedicated

56:08 to lowering negative affect and increasing productivity and creativity.

56:13 So, tell us Yeah, for sure.

56:14 Yeah, absolutely.

56:15 And there It's all designed to actually do so.

56:17 What I ingest, when I ingest it, what I actually do.

56:21 So, I I get up real early.

56:23 And there's a lot of research on how the brain works.

56:25 There's an ancient Vedic um science literature

56:29 on on something called the Brahma Muhurta.

56:31 I I spend a lot of time in India.

56:32 I go to India every year.

56:33 And I study with a lot of both scientists and um

56:36 and and spiritual teachers in the in I'm a Catholic,

56:40 but I do that anyway cuz it's really, really good stuff.

56:43 And they've always talked about the Brahma Muhurta,

56:45 which in Sanskrit means the creator's time.

56:47 It's an hour and 36 minutes before dawn.

56:49 A Muhurta is 48 minutes long as in in ancient Vedic physics.

56:54 That's arbitrary from a scientific point of view.

56:58 But there is a lot of research that shows that if you get

57:00 up before dawn and you're conscious and awake while the sun is rising,

57:05 it has strong neurochemical I mean,

57:06 you you know I've seen the literature on this.

57:08 You're more productive, you're more effective, you're more creative,

57:11 you're more focused, and you're happier is the way that that works.

57:14 And And Huberman talks about this stuff a lot, too.

57:16 About, you know, the sunrise, the sunrise.

57:19 So, that's what I practice.

57:21 And 4:30 is my time.

57:22 I usually work out from 4:45 to 5:45 every morning.

57:26 And I'm I'm a 7-day-a-week guy,

57:28 which means that I have to be really careful to not screw up my joints

57:31 and and and I want to be working out when I'm in my 80s,

57:34 which is a long time you know, a couple of decades from now.

57:38 And that means I have to really structure this thing in a very,

57:41 very good way to do that.

57:42 And a lot of it is zone two cardio, sometimes zone three hit training, etc.

57:45 But it's also a lot of resistance training, too.

57:47 And also I'm able to stay healthy and not touch my hormones,

57:50 which is really good.

57:51 It's a nice side effect of that.

57:52 But that manages my negative affect from the very first moment.

57:56 The second thing that I do is is that's that's the physical fitness.

58:01 The second is my metaphysical fitness,

58:03 which is the second technique for managing negative affect.

58:06 But it's also really personally important to me.

58:08 I go to mass every day.

58:10 I go to church every day [laughter] cuz I'm a Catholic.

58:12 It's the most important thing in my life.

58:13 Now, I also work I've studied Vipassana meditation and Stoic philosophy.

58:18 Everybody's [snorts] got to find their thing,

58:20 something that they actually practice, which is a a form of transcendence.

58:24 To transcend yourself,

58:26 to actually be focused on things greater than yourself every single day.

58:29 So, I go to mass from 6:30 to 7:00 every day.

58:32 And when I'm at home, it's with my wife.

58:33 And when I'm on the road, it's by myself.

58:36 They because The great thing about the Catholic Church is like Starbucks.

58:39 It's a very high-quality uniform product.

58:41 It's pretty easy to find, right?

58:43 So, for me, that's great.

58:45 That really works.

58:46 Then And I haven't ingested anything except uh you know,

58:50 electrolytes and with some creatine monohydrate, 10 g,

58:56 because I don't I don't want the just, you know, you know,

58:58 the the second 5 g is really good for your brain, yeah, etc.

59:01 etc.

59:01 That research is unbelievably strong at this point.

59:04 I've heard you talk about it and it's just really great.

59:06 So, I'm not ingesting anything until I get back.

59:09 And then I actually self-administer a psychostimulant.

59:12 That's when I actually use my caffeine.

59:14 And I like caffeine.

59:14 And I've been drinking it since I, you know, I grew up in Seattle.

59:17 And so, I'm a, you know, I drink a lot of dark roast Starbucks,

59:20 you know, the the more they burn it, the better I like it.

59:23 And I'll drink 350 mg of caffeine.

59:25 And I'll get that in the in a bolus

59:28 right after I get back and before I eat anything.

59:31 But that's two and 1/2 hours after I've gotten up

59:34 at this point because of all that stuff about adenosine clearing and etc.

59:38 etc.

59:38 That's contested but works for me.

59:40 I don't get the crash in the afternoon.

59:42 And then only then I eat and I get about

59:43 60 g of protein in my first meal of the day, which is really good.

59:47 Greek yogurt has a lot of tryptophan in it and that will actually hold you.

59:51 And when I do that, when I get to work,

59:53 I get 3 and 1/2 hours of concentrated creative work.

59:58 Which you don't get otherwise.

1:00:00 You're not going to get I can't write for 3 and 1/2 hours unless I set my day

1:00:03 up in a particular way and I'm not unbearable

1:00:06 to live with because my negative affect has been managed.

1:00:09 That's my five-part protocol.

1:00:11 Oh, I love it and I'm going to I want to get into some

1:00:14 of like a lot of different aspects of that like the transcendence as well.

1:00:18 But I think um we need to talk about the third macronutrient which is Meaning.

1:00:24 Meaning, purpose.

1:00:26 The meaning of life, yeah.

1:00:27 That's the biggie, you know, and that sounds like you know, what even is that?

1:00:31 That's a New Yorker cartoon, you know,

1:00:33 a guy sitting at the mouth of a cave in the Himalayas,

1:00:36 which I've done and and it is big

1:00:40 until you actually realize that there's a big literature

1:00:42 on in in the in the world of social psychology

1:00:46 that that breaks down how people experience meaning and thus what it is.

1:00:50 Meaning, the meaning of life is the answer to three questions.

1:00:53 So, if you want to look for the meaning of life,

1:00:55 look for the answer to three questions.

1:00:57 This is just a decomposition technique.

1:01:00 Big problems are just a bunch of little problems.

1:01:03 Here are the three questions.

1:01:04 Why do things happen the way they do in life?

1:01:06 That's coherence.

1:01:07 You need an answer to that and your answer doesn't have to be my answer.

1:01:11 I mean, my answer is profoundly religious and also super scientific.

1:01:15 Because I'm a I'm a I'm I was going to say I'm a Christian scientist.

1:01:18 That's a thing.

1:01:19 That's not what I mean.

1:01:20 I'm a scientific Christian, you know, whatever.

1:01:22 Yeah.

1:01:22 Um some people answer that in different ways.

1:01:25 You know, when people are going down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories,

1:01:28 that's a that's a cry for coherence because they

1:01:30 don't have a sense of meaning and they're not happy.

1:01:33 That's what it says.

1:01:34 So, if you have a relative who's going berserk on conspiracies,

1:01:37 don't yell at them and and you know, throw data at them.

1:01:41 Provide a better way to find coherence as an act

1:01:43 of love because that's the need that they're trying to meet.

1:01:47 The second question is why I'm doing what I'm doing.

1:01:51 I mean, am I going in circles?

1:01:52 A lot of people don't know.

1:01:54 It's like I get up and I go to work and I turn on the zoom screen

1:01:56 and I just like and it's like a a boat

1:01:58 that's kind of just going around and around.

1:01:59 You're not getting any place.

1:02:01 Remember, we're made for progress.

1:02:03 We're not made to arrive at a goal.

1:02:05 We're made to make progress toward a goal.

1:02:07 Arrival's tricky, you know,

1:02:10 like we talked about before the Olympic athletes or 30% of people,

1:02:14 depending on the study you're looking at, that go on a super strong diet,

1:02:18 they get to their goal and develop

1:02:19 an eating disorder because they want more progress.

1:02:23 And the goal for hitting your goal weight or the reward for hitting your goal

1:02:27 weight is never getting to eat what you like again for the rest of your life.

1:02:31 It's so depressing.

1:02:33 So, it's like, "No, I want the scale

1:02:34 to keep going down." And then they develop you know,

1:02:37 these eating disorders, these bad things because we're made toward progress.

1:02:41 That's purpose.

1:02:43 Why am I doing what I'm doing?

1:02:44 That's the sense of purpose.

1:02:45 That's goals.

1:02:46 That's direction.

1:02:48 And the last is significance, which is why does my life matter and to whom?

1:02:54 And that's the love problem.

1:02:56 That you know, the significance is the love problem.

1:02:59 And so, what you need is an explanation for the universe.

1:03:02 You need goals and direction and you need love.

1:03:05 And those things together are the ingredients.

1:03:07 Those are the macros of meaning.

1:03:09 It's how it And that's this new book about actually how do you find

1:03:12 that and I guess more importantly why we're

1:03:14 not because that's the crisis of our time.

1:03:17 The crisis of our time is not an enjoyment problem,

1:03:20 although the strivers watching us probably have an enjoyment crisis.

1:03:24 That's the big problem for strivers.

1:03:26 They don't enjoy their lives, right?

1:03:29 They got tons of satisfaction.

1:03:31 But meaning is the crisis for adults under 30 that we see today.

1:03:35 The number one predictor of of clinical depression

1:03:38 and generalized anxiety today is saying my life feels meaningless.

1:03:42 My life feels like a simulation.

1:03:44 My life feels empty.

1:03:46 That's why I wrote this new book.

1:03:48 Is because I wanted to figure out what's going wrong,

1:03:50 where do you have to go to find meaning and how do you have to live differently?

1:03:54 And that's what it comes down to.

1:03:56 So, people can ask themselves these questions.

1:03:59 Yeah.

1:04:00 And that's a start.

1:04:01 So, what else?

1:04:03 Well, there's a you got to get rid of the barrier to it

1:04:05 and the big barrier to it is is This is where the science really kicks in.

1:04:08 So, there's this whole body of neuroscience

1:04:10 that's very hot right now on hemispheric lateralization.

1:04:14 That's the work of Iain McGilchrist at Oxford who's really for for my money,

1:04:18 this is the most visionary guy working

1:04:21 on on both the psychiatry side and the neuroscience side.

1:04:24 And hemispheric lateralization is an old idea that just

1:04:27 says the two sides of the brain do different things.

1:04:29 And when I was a kid in the '70s, we all was like, "Yeah,

1:04:32 mom's an artsy right-brain person and dad is a is an analytic left-brain

1:04:37 guy." Because my dad was a PhD biostatistician and my mother was a painter.

1:04:41 And so, that's the two sides.

1:04:43 My my parents together made a whole brain.

1:04:45 It's kind of how it worked.

1:04:46 That's out of style because you don't just have an analysis side and art side.

1:04:50 What you have, however, because it's come back with this guy's work,

1:04:54 is a why side and a how side, right?

1:04:57 And the why side of your brain asks the big questions of life and the left

1:05:01 side of your brain figures out actually what to do because of the why.

1:05:06 You got to have you got to have coherence,

1:05:09 purpose and significance and then you go

1:05:12 out and do the things that actually matter.

1:05:13 So, if you're saying, you know,

1:05:14 if you're saying like "Why do things happen in the world?"

1:05:17 Because this is what God wants and God loves me.

1:05:20 This is part of significance and I want to serve his creation.

1:05:22 If that's if you're a traditional religious person,

1:05:24 then you're going to go live in a particular

1:05:25 way and how do you figure out how to live?

1:05:27 Left hemisphere of the brain.

1:05:29 All the technical problems and tasks, left hemisphere stuff.

1:05:32 There's a problem.

1:05:33 Our culture today, especially for people under 30 who

1:05:35 don't remember the before times like you and me, it's all left brain.

1:05:40 It's a technologized engineered world.

1:05:43 The tip of the spear is life online, life in the matrix.

1:05:47 That's all left hemisphere.

1:05:49 That's the reason that that that it life feels bereft

1:05:52 of meaning because not only can you not find it,

1:05:55 you're not even asking the questions.

1:05:56 You're not using your brain the way it was supposed to.

1:05:59 You're never bored.

1:06:01 You're never having a bull session late at night in the dorm asking,

1:06:05 you know, why things why you know, what what you know, is there a God?

1:06:08 Those are big meaning questions.

1:06:10 There's no mystery.

1:06:12 You only ask questions that chat GPT can answer.

1:06:16 If if AI can answer your question, it's not a meaning question.

1:06:19 It's not a right-brain question.

1:06:20 It's a left-brain question.

1:06:22 Ask it a meaning question like And by the way,

1:06:25 here's the test if there's a meaning crisis, two question test.

1:06:28 Why am I alive?

1:06:29 For what would I die?

1:06:30 What?

1:06:31 Right.

1:06:31 And chat GPT will give you nonsense.

1:06:34 It'll kiss up to you saying, "Oh, it's a such a smart question, Rhonda.

1:06:37 You know, that's a You're asking

1:06:38 the questions that Plato and Aristotle." It's like,

1:06:40 "Oh, I'm like Plato and Aris" You know, that it gives you nothing.

1:06:42 It gives you nothing.

1:06:43 And the reason is because you can't answer it.

1:06:46 You can only live with it.

1:06:48 I'll ask you a meaning question right now.

1:06:50 Why do you love your husband?

1:06:53 He makes me feel loved.

1:06:59 Um and like always, no matter what.

1:07:03 Matter what.

1:07:04 Matter who I am.

1:07:05 Um safe.

1:07:06 Mhm.

1:07:07 Um and he I look up to him.

1:07:12 He's the most honest person that I've ever met and and it's it's nice

1:07:19 to have that person that you admire and you I want to be like that.

1:07:23 It's By the way, I can tell you right

1:07:25 now you'll have a successful marriage and you will.

1:07:27 Yeah.

1:07:27 The reason is because in the human species,

1:07:31 females in a successful pair bond mate

1:07:35 mating relationship require adoration and males require admiration.

1:07:41 And that's biological.

1:07:44 He would fight a tiger for you.

1:07:45 You just told me that.

1:07:47 You feel safe.

1:07:48 You feel loved.

1:07:49 He would fight a tiger with his hands for you and only you.

1:07:54 And and and you admire him because in metaphorically or really,

1:08:00 he brings the biggest gazelles into the cave that anybody could ever bring

1:08:03 in and he's so big and strong and he takes care of the family.

1:08:06 And that's kind of what we want.

1:08:07 These are the These are the elements

1:08:08 of because we're just we we all need respect.

1:08:12 You know, we all need to be loved but these are differences

1:08:15 in the pair bond mate in the pair bond mating between females and males.

1:08:19 And you just told me right now you just told me you're going

1:08:20 to have you're going to be married to him for the rest of your life.

1:08:22 That's what you told me.

1:08:23 No, no, I mean, it's like yeah,

1:08:25 he'll be gazing into your eyes as he takes his dying breath.

1:08:28 That's what it's going to be cuz you got the formula.

1:08:31 You cracked the code.

1:08:31 That's what it comes down to, which is beautiful.

1:08:33 I mean, it's going to change.

1:08:34 There'll be challenges but that's beautiful.

1:08:36 But the whole point is when I asked you that, you didn't have a crisp answer.

1:08:42 And the reason is because the language centers in your brain are

1:08:44 in the left hemisphere and I asked you a right hemisphere question.

1:08:49 So, any one of those particular things, I feel valued.

1:08:55 Well, your third grade teacher made you feel valued.

1:08:57 I felt safe.

1:08:58 Well, your dad made you feel safe.

1:09:00 Any one of those things could be

1:09:01 applied to another person because language defies meaning.

1:09:06 Meaning is felt.

1:09:08 It's lived.

1:09:09 I mean, I've been married 34 years and I

1:09:13 I can't solve my marriage like an analytical problem.

1:09:16 I can only live my marriage, which is why I love it.

1:09:18 I I don't know if we're going to have a big argument tonight.

1:09:20 My wife's from Spain, so probably, right?

1:09:23 I mean, it's it's it's it's That's why it's beautiful.

1:09:26 That's why it's good.

1:09:27 And if you're spending all of your time online in the Matrix, which by the way,

1:09:31 that movie was about an artificial intelligence which subjugated

1:09:34 humanity and kept them pacified to use their human energy,

1:09:40 that's the reality now.

1:09:42 If you're in the Matrix all day long, you're sitting on the left side

1:09:44 of your brain and you're not even considering questions

1:09:47 of meaning and your life is going to be bereft of the things that really matter.

1:09:50 That's why you're depressed.

1:09:52 If you were to give advice to different

1:09:55 age groups on finding the meaning of life.

1:09:58 So, young adult, younger than 30, middle age, I mean, that's where I am.

1:10:03 And then older adult.

1:10:03 Young middle age you are.

1:10:07 [laughter] Where like would that advice change?

1:10:09 Yeah.

1:10:09 Yeah, yeah, it does.

1:10:10 It does.

1:10:10 It really does because it the habits actually depend

1:10:13 on on where you are in your in your life.

1:10:16 The the relationships that you actually have.

1:10:17 So, I you know, I I wrote The Meaning

1:10:19 of Your Life fundamentally for my 28-year-old graduate students.

1:10:22 Is cuz they're really struggling with it and also a lot.

1:10:25 They don't remember the before times and they

1:10:26 actually aren't living in an old-fashioned way at all.

1:10:30 So, my kids grew up with this stuff

1:10:32 as mother's milk and they're super old-fashioned.

1:10:35 I mean, my kids look at me and they think

1:10:36 I'm some sort of like freaked out hippy or something.

1:10:39 They're like two of my kids are of my three kids are military.

1:10:43 Two of my three kids got married in their early

1:10:44 20s and 9 months after their wedding started having children.

1:10:48 I mean, it it's you know, all three of my kids are traditionally religious.

1:10:51 They like read newspapers.

1:10:52 It's like living with a bunch of old people.

1:10:55 And which is they live in my house.

1:10:56 I mean, one of the families we we have an intergenerational household

1:11:00 at their request cuz they want to live like the old days.

1:11:03 So, they take this stuff really seriously when we talk about it,

1:11:05 but that's very unusual.

1:11:07 That's very transgressive as a matter of fact.

1:11:10 Most young people today are not doing

1:11:12 living according to the old ways that people naturally lived in when they had

1:11:15 their brain working hemispherically in a balanced way.

1:11:19 If you're online all the time,

1:11:21 there's a bunch of things that I can actually predict about life.

1:11:23 Number one, you're not asking the big questions.

1:11:26 You're asking the trivial questions, the technical questions.

1:11:30 Number one, actually before that, you're spending too much time online.

1:11:33 You're spending too much time looking at screens up to 12 hours a day.

1:11:36 You're in the Matrix.

1:11:38 But then the things that you're missing are these big questions.

1:11:40 The second thing is I almost always find real struggle with romantic love.

1:11:45 The the whole thing you talked about,

1:11:46 the beautiful thing you talked about about your husband,

1:11:48 they'll be like, what's she talking about?

1:11:50 I want it, but I don't know what it is.

1:11:52 And I've certainly never had it, right?

1:11:54 And the reason is because you can't get there until you are making an antenna

1:11:59 to the divine between the right hemisphere

1:12:01 of your brain and the right hemisphere of his brain.

1:12:05 That's how it works.

1:12:06 You communicate with him hemispherically on the right.

1:12:09 You understand each other to deep level of emotional, no, spiritual connection.

1:12:15 You can't do it.

1:12:16 If it if it's just like swipe right, zip zip zip,

1:12:20 knowing each other on social media,

1:12:22 spending all day looking at screens cuz your brains won't fuse.

1:12:25 That's what one flesh means is right brains.

1:12:28 So, get Well, getting rid of the screens or cutting down them It helps a lot.

1:12:33 A lot.

1:12:34 There's a lot of science behind this.

1:12:35 So, this is There's a lot of science behind this.

1:12:37 It doesn't mean throwing your phone in the ocean.

1:12:39 What it means is you need proper protocols in your life.

1:12:42 You need discipline in your life.

1:12:43 The best way to do it is no phone in the first hour of the day,

1:12:48 no phone in the last hour of the day, and no phone during meals.

1:12:52 Just that.

1:12:53 Then a bunch of phone-free zones, classroom, bedroom.

1:12:55 You should never have your phone in the bedroom.

1:12:56 I mean, everybody knows that, but people use it as the alarm clock, etc.

1:12:59 etc.

1:13:00 I can use my phone as an alarm clock now,

1:13:02 but not look at it because I'm so trained in that particular way.

1:13:06 And then tech fasts is really important.

1:13:08 I recommend 3 to 5 days a year.

1:13:10 Okay.

1:13:11 Where you actually don't have that.

1:13:12 And just that and you'll change your relationships

1:13:14 to the devices and your brain will be working differently.

1:13:16 If you want to go super hardcore, change your screen to a black and white.

1:13:20 That'll change how you relate to it.

1:13:23 You know, the neurochemistry actually will change in the way

1:13:25 that you the way that you use it.

1:13:28 Um, start communicating on purpose differently with your friends.

1:13:31 Start actually using the phone as opposed to as opposed to texting more.

1:13:35 Etc.

1:13:36 There's a bunch of things.

1:13:37 like an old school Yeah, like an old school phone basically.

1:13:39 Yeah, exactly.

1:13:40 Like crazy, right?

1:13:40 It's like, yeah, you can actually have a real-time conversation,

1:13:43 but with 10 just 10 numbers.

1:13:44 They're like, how?

1:13:45 New technology.

1:13:46 Yeah, I know.

1:13:47 I know because culture has changed.

1:13:48 Culture has accommodated itself to the left brain

1:13:51 world of the way that we use technology.

1:13:53 But this book has the whole set of protocols

1:13:55 on actually how to get clean for sure.

1:13:57 top of that answer asking those questions Right.

1:14:00 Answer Ask the questions and then falling in love.

1:14:02 Then there's the whole thing about actually how do you find calling in life?

1:14:05 How do you find holy vocation in life?

1:14:07 And that's really about how you find service.

1:14:10 You know, what you're doing to actually

1:14:11 to serve other people as opposed to you know, how I can serve myself.

1:14:15 And that's an ancient idea that actually accentuates the activity in the left

1:14:19 and the right side of the brain as opposed to the left side of the brain.

1:14:22 You're egotistical on the left more than you are on the right.

1:14:24 Okay.

1:14:24 Actually because you seek transcendence,

1:14:27 which is another important thing is looking

1:14:29 for spiritual reality as people understand it is looking

1:14:32 for ways that they can like serve

1:14:34 and love including people that they don't even know.

1:14:35 That's right brain all day long.

1:14:38 That'll just like that'll wire you.

1:14:41 I I I prescribe volunteer work to people for that particular reason.

1:14:45 To love and be loved in ways beyond just the you know,

1:14:48 the technological world that we live in.

1:14:50 I recommend beauty.

1:14:51 There's three kinds of beauty that people need to self-administer.

1:14:54 It's not like beauty of somebody that might become your mate.

1:14:59 That's different.

1:15:00 That exercises different parts of the brain.

1:15:01 It's three kinds of beauty, artistic beauty, natural beauty, moral beauty.

1:15:06 Those are very right brain experiences and it's so interesting in the literature

1:15:10 today that shows that that young people just have less beauty in their lives.

1:15:13 All all across the All across the board.

1:15:15 I mean, there's a pretty interesting work

1:15:17 that talks about how for example, natural beauty,

1:15:20 the average child under 12 spends 4 to 7 minutes a day in nature.

1:15:25 Huge problem.

1:15:26 4 to 7 hours a day behind the screen, 4 to 7 minutes in nature.

1:15:29 That's upside down, obviously.

1:15:32 And so, natural beauty, boy, it has a big neurocognitive impact.

1:15:36 Artistic beauty is just missing when you're looking

1:15:39 at things on the screen all the day.

1:15:41 Because you actually don't get any three dimensionality to things,

1:15:43 but you actually can't get any depth to anything in any other way as well.

1:15:48 You find that music today and this is pretty interesting.

1:15:50 I don't want to be just like an old fogey and say, "In my day,

1:15:53 music was more beautiful." But music is objectively

1:15:56 less melodic than it's been in the past,

1:15:59 which actually affects us neurophysiologically.

1:16:02 Is the tunefulness, the beauty that we actually see.

1:16:05 And then moral beauty.

1:16:06 There's just less moral beauty that we see.

1:16:09 And when you witness an act of moral beauty in the part of somebody else,

1:16:12 it's so interesting.

1:16:13 So, the British journalist Malcolm Muggeridge, you ever heard that name?

1:16:19 No.

1:16:19 He wrote a book called Something Beautiful for God where

1:16:22 he kind of discovered for the whole world Mother Teresa.

1:16:25 Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

1:16:27 And he heard about this Albanian nun who's like 4 ft 10 living

1:16:31 on the streets of Calcutta and just serving the poorest of the poor,

1:16:35 serving the poorest of the poor.

1:16:36 So, he goes to me.

1:16:36 He's a complete hardened atheist.

1:16:39 And he meets her and he becomes Catholic.

1:16:41 And he says, "This story it wasn't because of the theology.

1:16:45 It was because of the moral beauty that he saw

1:16:48 in in in Mother Teresa and her sisters and what they were

1:16:51 doing." And then scooping people up and it's like and he

1:16:54 made it into a book and as people would read it,

1:16:56 they're just weeping as they read the book.

1:16:58 Or they would see it and he made it into a documentary

1:16:59 on the BBC and and and people would just by the millions.

1:17:03 And it's like, I don't know.

1:17:05 I don't know.

1:17:06 When you see somebody serving somebody else, when you will see beauty,

1:17:09 when you allow somebody to serve you in in just pure love and pure charity,

1:17:15 it gives you what the psychologist Rett Desner calls moral elevation.

1:17:22 And it has it's biology, man.

1:17:23 I mean, we're wired for this.

1:17:25 We're wired for the the altruism that actually comes

1:17:29 from doing beautiful things and experiencing that kind of moral beauty.

1:17:33 And this is really important.

1:17:34 And the last the hardest one of all,

1:17:37 you want to open up your right brain, you got to suffer.

1:17:39 And you have to understand suffering.

1:17:41 And so, I have a whole chapter in this book about how to suffer.

1:17:44 It's called never waste your suffering.

1:17:46 And that's really countercultural today.

1:17:49 Okay, this is um a so much to unpack here.

1:17:52 I mean, going you know, going to the into the service part two,

1:17:56 like serving others and I mean,

1:17:59 it seems like that I've heard you talk about becoming

1:18:03 a really important factor particularly as you're in maybe later midlife,

1:18:09 perhaps going to even or just midlife.

1:18:11 I mean, you basically you're not in your peak in terms of your productivity,

1:18:16 you know, you're not able to you're not the the best French horn player, right?

1:18:20 I mean, like you peak and then like you

1:18:22 can't you can't be the best um because I mean,

1:18:26 biology does happen and you do get older and you know,

1:18:28 your different types of intelligence that are changing,

1:18:31 but like if you are you're serving others, you still have that purpose too.

1:18:36 Am I understanding that right?

1:18:38 Where you know, and I'm I'm thinking about this as I was again

1:18:41 reading up on a lot of your stuff and you've written your books.

1:18:45 Um I was trying to apply this to my life and thinking, you know,

1:18:49 like what I do with this podcast, you know,

1:18:52 you can look at it through a variety of lenses.

1:18:54 You could say, "Well, this is your job.

1:18:56 You make money doing this.

1:18:57 This is like or, you know, you you realize that I mean,

1:19:02 I get so much feedback on helping people like change their lives.

1:19:05 They've like whatever little change it's made a big difference in their life

1:19:08 and it's in a and it's a service and you feel good.

1:19:12 Like I'm actually improving people's lives.

1:19:16 I'm improving my own life.

1:19:17 I'm improving my family members my families that are listening, you know,

1:19:19 family and friends that actually listen to the And so that in itself

1:19:23 almost kind of fills that service bucket in a way for me.

1:19:28 Um there's a it's gray, right?

1:19:29 Cuz it's also it is like my job, but like I mean I get paid to do this, but I

1:19:33 mean I'm I'm getting paid and also from the people, right?

1:19:36 People just People are just like saying, "Hey, keep doing this," right?

1:19:39 So um I'd love, you know, like to for you to kind of elaborate more on like

1:19:45 how can You don't have to go out and be Mother Teresa.

1:19:48 That's what I'm saying, right?

1:19:49 Like you can you can you can find service through

1:19:52 a variety of different mechanisms that are easier than you think.

1:19:55 that's the sense of calling.

1:19:57 Sense of calling is is your work is a vocation.

1:19:59 It's what you're meant to do.

1:20:00 And and and a lot of young people ask me that.

1:20:02 They're like, "I don't know what I'm meant

1:20:03 to do." And the reason is because you've

1:20:05 been sitting on the left side of your brain on the smartest thing for you to do.

1:20:08 You went to college and they said, "Well,

1:20:09 you know, you should really study some STEM thing,

1:20:11 you know?" It's like cuz that's a really smart thing to do.

1:20:13 It's like, "But I'm I love art." Right?

1:20:16 And I get it.

1:20:17 I'm a practical person too.

1:20:20 And I've got kids too.

1:20:21 And if they're like, "Yeah, Dad,

1:20:23 I'm going to study postmodern puppetry at Princeton."

1:20:28 I guess I'm trying to do all alliteration here, but it's a I'd be like, "Ah,

1:20:33 you thought about the implications of that?" You know, I'm a dad too.

1:20:35 I get it.

1:20:36 But the whole But the truth of the matter

1:20:37 is that we're meant to do different things.

1:20:39 I believe that we have a vocation.

1:20:41 And our vocations have It's so beautiful because we're we're different

1:20:45 in the diversity of what we love and what we're able to do.

1:20:48 And when we're able to do what we're really good at.

1:20:50 This is kind of the concept of ikigai, which you've heard about.

1:20:53 It's like what I'm good at, what the world needs,

1:20:57 what I'm paid to do, and what I love to do.

1:21:01 So what I what I love to do,

1:21:02 what I'm good at, what the world pays me to do, and what the world needs.

1:21:06 And and and the and the the the concentricity,

1:21:09 the the Venn diagram of those things, that's your that's your vocation.

1:21:12 And and finding that is this unbelievably fun adventure in life.

1:21:18 I'm actually trying to find that, but you can't do

1:21:20 that when you're just sitting on the left side of your brain,

1:21:23 you know, Googling the jobs that are going to pay the most in 12 years.

1:21:27 You're not going to actually get that.

1:21:28 Now, there's one thing that's really important for people to keep in mind.

1:21:31 And you just said it.

1:21:32 You get a sense of calling and a sense of service.

1:21:35 A sense of love toward the world

1:21:37 to the to the way that you earn your daily bread.

1:21:40 That's exactly how it's supposed to be done.

1:21:43 You know, the idea that because you make

1:21:44 money would somehow be at odds with serving.

1:21:47 No, that's never been the case.

1:21:49 You know, the Bible in the Garden of Eden Adam and Adam and Eve before they

1:21:52 get before all the bad business with the snake

1:21:54 and the apple and all the unpleasantness, they're working the garden.

1:21:58 They're working the garden, and they're in bliss with God while they're working

1:22:02 the garden because that's what they're supposed to do.

1:22:04 That's their calling.

1:22:05 You with this podcast are working the garden before the fall.

1:22:09 And that's what we're looking for.

1:22:10 That's what people actually need.

1:22:12 And and and a lot of people they struggle to actually find that, but a big part

1:22:15 of that is because they're not they're not living

1:22:18 with this as what can I do that I love,

1:22:21 the world needs, they're willing to pay me for it,

1:22:25 that serves what what I'm and I'm really good at it.

1:22:28 You know, is they're not thinking about it in a holistic way.

1:22:31 And and when you can find it, it's an incredible blessing.

1:22:34 But as they say, the kids they say these days, you got to do the work.

1:22:39 And you said you that you know, hardship like,

1:22:42 you know, suffering is also really important ingredient in this.

1:22:45 You know, not everyone has had I mean, everyone suffers to some degree.

1:22:48 We all have things in our life, but like Everybody.

1:22:51 Like the big events, you know, like a loss of a loved one.

1:22:55 Like a really close loved one, right?

1:22:56 Would be one that comes to mind.

1:22:58 Can people create these types of suffering?

1:23:00 Like can is is going out and lifting heavy a type of suffering?

1:23:04 Like how Like how can people who haven't really yet Maybe they're younger

1:23:08 or they haven't really experienced that great

1:23:11 great type of suffering experience it?

1:23:15 suffering when you use it productively creates

1:23:19 a tremendous sense of meaning in life.

1:23:20 And And we see this from the whole literature on post-traumatic growth,

1:23:23 where people who do have really hard experiences, they get cancer,

1:23:26 they lose somebody, they God forbid they lose a child,

1:23:29 which is the most traumatic thing that can I mean, you can imagine.

1:23:31 It's almost happened to us a couple of times.

1:23:34 And And it's just the the brush with that.

1:23:37 But people who experience that in in more than 90% of the cases,

1:23:41 they experience post-traumatic growth.

1:23:43 There's a there's transitions that people have

1:23:45 that are really really painful in life.

1:23:47 Uh Bruce Feiler does this work called Life Is in the Transitions.

1:23:50 It's really nice.

1:23:51 Um and he talks about that the fact that every

1:23:53 18 months you're going to have a pretty substantial transition.

1:23:56 Um most of them will not be of your own design.

1:23:59 That they'll be induced.

1:24:00 And so you don't like it cuz you didn't choose it.

1:24:02 Every 5 years is what he calls a lifequake,

1:24:05 which is like you really don't want that.

1:24:08 But it's going to happen on average every 5 years.

1:24:11 And it's always a big surprise.

1:24:14 It's like, "What?

1:24:14 How is this happening?" It's cuz that's life, right?

1:24:17 How you how you understand that is really really important

1:24:20 for whether or not it's going to bring you meaning or not,

1:24:22 whether or not you're going to get

1:24:22 post-traumatic growth if it's actually traumatic.

1:24:25 And here's the way to understand it, and here's how to do it.

1:24:27 Here's the formula cuz we like formulas, all right?

1:24:29 You know, we're You know, it's they gave us PhDs for having formulas.

1:24:34 So suffering is not the same thing as pain.

1:24:37 Pain is a neurophysiological reality, and it happens to you.

1:24:42 Pain is both sensory and affective.

1:24:45 Sensory means involving the nerve endings and inflammation,

1:24:48 and affective means that it's affecting part of the limbic system that says,

1:24:52 "I don't like it." So you burn your hand on a stove,

1:24:55 and the sensory pain where the nerve

1:24:56 endings are indicating that there's a problem.

1:24:59 Ouch.

1:25:01 Immediately leads to the affective part where the dorsal

1:25:04 anterior cingulate cortex of the limbic system says, "I hated that," right?

1:25:08 So ouch and I hate it are the two parts of pain.

1:25:11 Now, when you have mental pain, it's only the second part.

1:25:15 So if somebody rejects you, you know, if somebody says, "Your work is stupid.

1:25:19 You're a hack." Your dorsal anterior cingulate cortex is

1:25:22 going to go into overdrive cuz you don't like that.

1:25:24 You don't want to be You don't want to be rejected

1:25:27 in this particular way cuz that that's your ancient brain saying,

1:25:30 "I'm going to get thrown out of my tribe,

1:25:32 and I'm going to walk the savanna get hunted down by cheetah or something like

1:25:35 that." And And it's weird how it's developed

1:25:38 how it's adapted to the modern to modern life.

1:25:40 Misadapted, I should say.

1:25:41 Okay, so that being the case, this pain is is going to happen.

1:25:46 You don't have to go looking for it.

1:25:48 It'll find you.

1:25:49 And every 5 years it's going to be really bad.

1:25:51 Maybe catastrophic as far as it seems to you.

1:25:54 Suffering is your struggle when that happens.

1:25:58 Pain is the experience.

1:26:00 Suffering is the struggle.

1:26:02 The The ancient Buddhist formula for understanding

1:26:05 the relationship between suffering and pain, which is very valid,

1:26:08 scientifically valid in the way that we think about it as Westerners,

1:26:11 suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance.

1:26:14 Pain times resistance to pain.

1:26:16 Now, everybody who watches us is going to the gym, and they understand that.

1:26:20 You don't go to the gym cuz it feels good.

1:26:22 You go to the gym because it feels bad.

1:26:25 I mean, I don't care who you are.

1:26:27 I mean, I was in there this morning.

1:26:28 Today was Today was a a pull day.

1:26:30 And it was a pull day.

1:26:31 And I was mad.

1:26:32 It hurt.

1:26:33 That's the point.

1:26:35 And and and how am I actually not suffering even though I'm in pain?

1:26:38 Because my resistance is low.

1:26:40 I went in there on purpose and I subjected myself to it.

1:26:44 You know you're doing well in life when your pain is high,

1:26:46 but your but your suffering is low.

1:26:48 Now, most people don't know how to do this when when it's not the gym.

1:26:53 Most people don't know how to do this when life is throwing something at you,

1:26:56 when life is making you go to the gym.

1:26:58 It's interesting because if it's not of our own volition,

1:27:02 it's it's like you know those old

1:27:04 mouse studies where mice are subjected to exercise?

1:27:08 Or And And so they're they're made to run on a treadmill,

1:27:11 and their cortisol levels are unbelievably high, and they die.

1:27:15 And then they actually put the same wheels out in the field,

1:27:17 and field mice just find the wheels and run on them.

1:27:21 And they live longer.

1:27:22 I've I've probably heard you talk about these studies, right?

1:27:25 I I don't think I've talked about them, but I'm The stress studies.

1:27:28 Stress studies.

1:27:28 Yeah, it's it's involuntary versus voluntary stress.

1:27:30 Turn all stress into voluntary stress through non-resistance,

1:27:34 and it'll make you stronger and better.

1:27:36 If something bad is happening in your life, then bring it on.

1:27:40 Bring it on.

1:27:41 Just like the gym.

1:27:43 You know, somebody rejected you, your beloved.

1:27:45 I thought I was going to marry her.

1:27:47 And And she turns out she loves somebody else.

1:27:49 It's the gym.

1:27:51 That's the the emotional gym.

1:27:52 Your dorsal anterior cingulate cortex is going crazy.

1:27:54 You're like, "I invited that.

1:27:56 I invite this." And that's your resistance actually falling,

1:28:00 and your suffering will actually fall

1:28:03 paradoxically even while your pain is high.

1:28:05 And that's where you will actually learn and grow and find your meaning.

1:28:09 So you really just have to change that mindset.

1:28:11 And it's hard to do.

1:28:12 It's hard to do because once again,

1:28:13 you're making a choice that's not a natural choice.

1:28:17 You know, left to your devices,

1:28:18 you're your your brain will be like dorsal anterior cingulate cortex,

1:28:22 that means that you're going to walk the frozen tundra.

1:28:25 So you better avoid this.

1:28:27 But you know it's not true.

1:28:29 Right.

1:28:30 So you have to make a decision.

1:28:30 I think I think that, you know,

1:28:32 people that do go to the gym and do intentionally,

1:28:36 you know, engage in that type of pain and and, you know,

1:28:40 suffering, but then they feel better.

1:28:42 They get stronger.

1:28:43 I think that you are probably somehow working

1:28:45 that part of your brain because for me,

1:28:48 you know, I do really heavy lifting first thing in the morning.

1:28:51 And guess what?

1:28:52 The other stuff that's thrown at me isn't as hard.

1:28:55 It's really not as hard.

1:28:57 It truly It was probably one of the biggest shocks

1:29:00 to me because I've always been more of an endurance Yeah.

1:29:02 sort of junkie.

1:29:03 I like to run.

1:29:04 I like You did long-distance stuff, right?

1:29:05 Long runs.

1:29:07 Yeah.

1:29:07 Um And then I started doing getting really

1:29:10 serious about weight training a couple of years ago.

1:29:13 Mhm.

1:29:13 And it's a it's a different kind of ouch, you know?

1:29:15 It's a different kind of hard.

1:29:16 It's Women don't often do that, actually.

1:29:19 So, all right.

1:29:20 Yeah.

1:29:21 And it's there's definitely um it there's a lot of fear.

1:29:26 It's like there's a psychological barrier I have

1:29:28 to get over when I'm like cleaning heavy weight.

1:29:30 I mean, it's scary to me.

1:29:32 Yeah.

1:29:32 Um it's not like as natural as like running.

1:29:35 And like I said, that hard, that mental hardship that I have to get through.

1:29:41 Now, I do have a coach and that helps somewhat, but only somewhat.

1:29:44 Like I they're definitely like I'm like, I don't want to do this.

1:29:46 You're making me go heavier.

1:29:46 She'll like sneak the weight You can have an actual

1:29:49 Yeah, and and and it's like I said,

1:29:51 I think that for people listening it does help to, you know,

1:29:55 voluntarily engage in that kind of struggle because it will help

1:30:00 you deal with the stuff that does get thrown at you.

1:30:02 And For sure.

1:30:04 love that mindset change where you're like, bring it on.

1:30:06 Like I can like this this is I'm going to do this.

1:30:09 get Don't kick out the pain.

1:30:10 Lower the resistance.

1:30:11 Cuz remember, the formula is you want to be thinking about your suffering,

1:30:16 not about your pain.

1:30:17 And you have to work the right lever so your suffering goes down.

1:30:20 And you can temporarily I mean,

1:30:21 you can take more and more analgesics or sit on the couch all day long.

1:30:24 But let me tell you,

1:30:25 if you're actually trying to avoid emotional suffering by never dating,

1:30:30 that that's a huge problem as opposed to you

1:30:33 want to be a real entrepreneur with your life, give your heart away.

1:30:37 See how that feels.

1:30:38 Lower your resistance to risk.

1:30:40 Lower your resistance to rejection.

1:30:43 That's what a life entrepreneur does.

1:30:46 Right.

1:30:47 I mean, you're definitely you're going to you're going to fail.

1:30:49 You're going to have pain.

1:30:50 to have pain.

1:30:50 It's going to happen whether or not you take the risk or not.

1:30:53 You're right.

1:30:54 So, you might as well Yeah.

1:30:55 Yeah.

1:30:55 at it, too.

1:30:56 That's right.

1:30:56 That's right.

1:30:57 And this is once again, this is metaphysical fitness.

1:30:59 It's what we're talking about.

1:31:01 Is that what you would call like being an observer of like your emotions as well

1:31:07 when you're like in instead of your like instead of you ex- happening to you,

1:31:10 imagine it's it's happening to someone else and like how it

1:31:14 Yeah.

1:31:14 That's one technique for lowering resistance, for sure.

1:31:15 That's called metacognition,

1:31:17 where you're observing your your thinking about thinking,

1:31:19 you're observing your emotions, you're getting space,

1:31:21 you're saying yourself, I'm not my emotions.

1:31:24 My emotions are physiological experience that I'm having,

1:31:28 and that's because that's is the way my brain is wired.

1:31:30 This is really, really helpful when you're having

1:31:33 extremely aversive emotions to say, that's not me.

1:31:36 That's something that's actually happening

1:31:38 happening neurochemically to me right now.

1:31:41 That's space that you put in.

1:31:42 There's a lot of techniques for doing that.

1:31:44 To that's a resistance-lowering set of experiences and techniques.

1:31:47 So, for example, journaling does that really, really well.

1:31:50 You know, when people find when they write about

1:31:52 their feelings that their feelings don't feel so intense.

1:31:55 The reason is cuz you can't actually

1:31:58 ex- You can't write with your limbic system.

1:32:00 You have to write with your prefrontal cortex.

1:32:02 You want to move the experience of your emotions

1:32:05 to the executive centers of your brain.

1:32:07 Prayer is great for this.

1:32:08 Prayer is a petition.

1:32:10 Vipassana meditation, you know, um um insight meditation.

1:32:14 What am I feeling right now?

1:32:15 Let's actually think about that a little bit.

1:32:17 For some people, certain kinds of therapy actually really helpful for that.

1:32:20 But all of us have these techniques

1:32:22 at our disposal if we actually want to self-manage.

1:32:25 And you know, in this life, if you're not self-managing, what are you doing?

1:32:30 I mean, it's like you're the the the most

1:32:32 important management you'll ever do is of yourself.

1:32:36 It's what it comes down to.

1:32:37 And and and this is how we actually learn and grow.

1:32:39 Right.

1:32:40 So, so the the prayer like for people that are religious, you know,

1:32:43 the prayer part, like having daily prayer,

1:32:46 you know, whether it's morning or evening.

1:32:47 Yeah, it's called conversation with God for a lot of people.

1:32:49 It's like, you know, it's like you know,

1:32:51 it's it's funny because there's this three-part structure for very

1:32:54 traditional Christians for prayer or four-part structure or depending on it.

1:32:58 It's like the first part is Part one, you're awesome, you know?

1:33:02 Part two, thanks.

1:33:04 Part three, sorry.

1:33:07 Part four, can I have some help here?

1:33:10 It's kind of those four parts is is glorification it or in worship.

1:33:15 It is it is uh is gratitude.

1:33:18 It's it's a contrition.

1:33:21 And it's asking.

1:33:24 Is what it comes down to.

1:33:25 But all of that is hugely metacognitive because what you've done is explored all

1:33:29 of those things in the murky depths

1:33:31 of your limbic system and made them conscious.

1:33:34 And that's to be fully alive.

1:33:36 I've I've found that um you know, praying alone in my head versus like like

1:33:43 praying with a family member or someone else, like praying together out loud.

1:33:49 There's something about praying together that makes me feel really good Mhm.

1:33:53 versus Mhm.

1:33:55 praying by myself.

1:33:56 It's a little different.

1:33:57 That's called joint metacognition, actually.

1:33:59 And that's super powerful because you're wiring

1:34:01 together the right hemispheres of your brain.

1:34:03 There's kind of there for the the big threat to most family life,

1:34:09 to most marriages, for example,

1:34:11 is not I mean, abuse or abandonment or disloyalty.

1:34:15 Those things are real, for sure.

1:34:17 It's just cooling.

1:34:18 It's just, you know, it's torpor.

1:34:21 It's time.

1:34:22 It's like, drifting apart, right?

1:34:25 And so there's things that you can actually

1:34:26 do to bring a marriage back together again.

1:34:28 And there's sort of like four things [clears throat]

1:34:31 that you see in the literature that really, really, really work.

1:34:33 And what it does is it fuses your right hemispheres again, refuses them.

1:34:37 Number one is eye contact.

1:34:39 And and when you're looking in your husband's eyes,

1:34:41 that's actually more important to you than him because

1:34:43 women get three times as much oxytocin as men.

1:34:46 Cuz you're taking care of a baby.

1:34:48 And when your when your son was a little boy

1:34:49 or was a little tiny baby and he was nursing,

1:34:51 you know, he'd be staring up at your eyes

1:34:53 and it'd be like the 4th of July inside your head.

1:34:55 That's oxytocin, right?

1:34:56 Oxytocin production is the, you know,

1:34:58 the bonding and love connection that you have with a baby.

1:35:01 And women have three times as much.

1:35:02 Men, plenty, and it's really, really important,

1:35:05 but eye contact is critical for that.

1:35:08 And so one of the things I tell guys is if you

1:35:10 want to have a if you want to re- reheat your marriage,

1:35:14 you want the marriage microwave,

1:35:16 is is is actually when you're talking to her, you're looking at her in the eyes.

1:35:21 Because guys are all like this and they're kind of talking

1:35:23 and and it's fine and all that and she's like, I don't feel connected.

1:35:26 I don't know why.

1:35:27 And then he starts like, okay,

1:35:29 whenever we're talking, we're looking in the eyes.

1:35:31 And she's like, I just feel better cuz there's more oxytocin.

1:35:34 Two is always be touching.

1:35:36 Touch touch touch touch.

1:35:37 That's actually more important for men.

1:35:39 More touch.

1:35:39 More touch.

1:35:40 More touch.

1:35:40 You're sitting next to him watching on the couch watching TV.

1:35:43 Touch.

1:35:44 Right?

1:35:45 Hand.

1:35:45 When you're when you're walking, always holding hands, right?

1:35:48 Always touching.

1:35:49 Always just ABT.

1:35:50 Always be touching.

1:35:51 Number three is having more fun.

1:35:53 Wait, explain why touching cuz it's so true.

1:35:55 I've noticed that for my husband.

1:35:57 Touching is way more important.

1:35:58 oh yeah, for sure.

1:35:58 If you're walking down the street with him

1:36:00 and you hook your arm inside his, like,

1:36:01 you know, that thing, he's like 7 ft tall.

1:36:04 And and part of the There's there's a lot of, you know,

1:36:07 sort of contested theories about actually how this works.

1:36:10 But for sure there's more oxytocin, but there's more vasopressin,

1:36:13 which is defense and strength is the whole thing.

1:36:17 And and so guys need that more than they understand.

1:36:19 It's just casual It's not sexual touch.

1:36:21 It's just touch.

1:36:22 It's just actual physical contact that they actually need.

1:36:25 It will change your brains, especially his.

1:36:29 Is what we actually see.

1:36:30 It's super critical.

1:36:31 And women kind of forget that.

1:36:33 When when they cool, when men are cooling, they're looking at you less.

1:36:37 And when women are cooling, they're touching you less.

1:36:39 That's that's sort of the typical finding that we see, right?

1:36:42 So, ABT.

1:36:43 ABT.

1:36:43 ABT.

1:36:44 And so, number one is dudes.

1:36:45 Number two is ladies, right?

1:36:48 Number three is fun.

1:36:49 Now, a lot of couples when they're cooling,

1:36:51 they're they're they kind of just rehearse grievances again and again and again.

1:36:55 And and if they go to couples therapy, a lot of that is like,

1:36:58 okay, well, he said this thing and she did this and etc.

1:37:01 etc.

1:37:02 You can cover a multitude of sins,

1:37:04 actually make them go away by reducing the significance

1:37:07 of the problems by covering them in happiness, right?

1:37:13 And so the negative emotionality can be really

1:37:15 drowned in positive emotionality that you're having jointly.

1:37:18 And and part of that is that thing

1:37:20 that's really fun that we really, really like doing.

1:37:22 And we And it's like it's You've noticed

1:37:25 this that when you're having a kind of a squabble,

1:37:26 when you're irritated, and then something happens, like somebody you know,

1:37:31 so that you like, some third person knocks on the door and pretty

1:37:35 soon you're all laughing and you're realizing

1:37:36 you're not annoyed with each other anymore.

1:37:37 That's a perfect case of this.

1:37:39 You got to do that.

1:37:40 Go ride your bikes.

1:37:41 Go walk on the beach.

1:37:43 You know, watch a movie that you both like.

1:37:45 Whatever it happens to be, but find something is fun.

1:37:48 And number four is praying together

1:37:49 and this gets back to what you're talking about.

1:37:52 Praying together for people who are really, really, really not religious,

1:37:55 meditating together or reading actually to each

1:37:58 other actually does much the same thing.

1:38:00 Reading to each other is just it's

1:38:02 almost narcotic for people who love each other.

1:38:05 Is actually is, you know,

1:38:06 the sound of your voice if you're actually reading something to him,

1:38:09 the Psalms, poetry, whatever it happens to be.

1:38:12 It's just so good.

1:38:13 And and part of the reason is because

1:38:14 the way that it actually that activity in the brain

1:38:17 that it elicits when you're hearing the voice of somebody

1:38:20 doing something like that, the person that you actually love.

1:38:23 So, joint prayer is really, really, really powerful.

1:38:26 And I recommend that religious couples I know I

1:38:29 know Catholic couples who've been married for 50 years

1:38:31 and they don't pray in front of each other cuz

1:38:32 it's it's so intimate to pray in front of somebody.

1:38:36 It's so intimate.

1:38:37 It's like it's really embarrassing at first.

1:38:40 Cuz it's like looking into the sun.

1:38:42 It's like, I don't want you to see I don't I can't.

1:38:44 It's bad for me.

1:38:45 It like it's going to burn my my my my retinas or something.

1:38:49 Which also looking into each other's eyes after

1:38:51 a long time can hurt like that, too.

1:38:53 Can be really heartbreaking in its way.

1:38:56 But doing that, boy, oh boy.

1:38:57 When I talk to couples that are engaged, um I say,

1:39:01 it's like that what you're think- You know what the most intimate thing is?

1:39:04 Not that.

1:39:06 Prayer.

1:39:07 Right.

1:39:07 And I love how you I mean,

1:39:08 even even for someone that's not religious,

1:39:12 perhaps perhaps you're not, you know,

1:39:15 Yeah.

1:39:15 atheist.

1:39:15 Maybe you're just you don't know.

1:39:16 You're agnostic, right?

1:39:18 Like you can still pray together.

1:39:20 Like you can Like you can Sometimes you can

1:39:23 pray together just to like and then you know, talk about like what you know,

1:39:27 what what you're wanting that to be better

1:39:29 or what you're looking forward to or you know, so it's like it's There ways.

1:39:34 It doesn't have to be sometimes when the people hear the word meditation,

1:39:36 it's like it's got to be alone.

1:39:38 It's got to be I mean you can be centered in the whole thing,

1:39:40 a single point meditation, getting kind of spaced out or something.

1:39:43 I got nothing against meditation.

1:39:44 I've been I've been meditating for years and years and years.

1:39:47 But [snorts] um that's, you know,

1:39:49 when jointly meditating on something with different kinds of techniques,

1:39:52 we're sharing something metaphysical, sharing metaphysics of it.

1:39:56 This is why reading is is is a really good way to do it,

1:39:59 but I like reading poetry.

1:40:01 You know, reading Psalms, reading poetry to each other because it's unusual.

1:40:05 It's not what you ordinarily do.

1:40:07 And so therefore it makes your brain and his brain work in a different way.

1:40:11 Um since we're on this social social relationships, I mean I think you know,

1:40:18 the romantic love First of all,

1:40:20 you're talking about younger people who have a hard time even finding a mate.

1:40:23 And that's a whole problem.

1:40:25 Um and there's a lot of loneliness in these in these people, right?

1:40:30 Yeah.

1:40:30 Um but then there's also like, you know,

1:40:32 keeping that romantic relationship going and I think

1:40:35 that we kind of talked a little bit about that.

1:40:37 Date nights for one, like finding those fun things.

1:40:39 I mean, I love That's a That's part three.

1:40:40 That's fun.

1:40:41 It really is.

1:40:42 It really is important.

1:40:43 But um yeah, I mean,

1:40:45 can you kind of just across the lifespan maybe navigate like how um you know,

1:40:50 the social challenges people are going to be challenged

1:40:53 with and how they can kind of navigate that at different stages.

1:40:56 Yeah.

1:40:57 Yeah, I mean, people that that obviously you're a lot less

1:41:00 likely to be dating at 60 than you are at 20.

1:41:03 I mean, that's that's the case.

1:41:04 Although that's not necessarily the case anymore.

1:41:06 I mean, there are fewer and fewer 20-year-olds

1:41:08 dating and more and more 60-year-olds who are dating.

1:41:11 And part of the reason is because of this phenomenon of gray divorce,

1:41:13 which is divorce after 25 years, which is exploding, actually.

1:41:17 Is that is that that's what one of the things that we see,

1:41:19 in no small part because couples who are highly highly highly online,

1:41:25 they cool to each other because their right hemispheres

1:41:27 are not fusing in the ways that we're talking about.

1:41:29 They don't know and and and and I talked to a lot of couples my age about one,

1:41:34 two, three, four, what we just talked about here.

1:41:36 A lot of young people, 20-year-olds,

1:41:38 are not dating at all because they're actually

1:41:40 they're in a technological milieu where it's hard.

1:41:43 You know, dating apps are responsible for 62%

1:41:46 right now of long-term relationships that we find today.

1:41:49 But it's actually really hard using these technologies

1:41:52 to find people that you're deeply attracted to.

1:41:54 The main reason [clears throat] for that, by the way,

1:41:56 is because these technologies,

1:41:57 which are getting better and I'm not against them,

1:42:00 I'm not against technology per se at all and I

1:42:02 think the dating apps are going to be really good,

1:42:04 but they've tended to reward compatibility

1:42:07 as because as opposed to complementarity.

1:42:10 We bond deeply to somebody who completes us, not who copies us.

1:42:16 So you want somebody who's enough like you,

1:42:18 you know, same religion maybe, same basic values,

1:42:21 but not just like you because that's dating yourself and man,

1:42:23 that's not hot, right?

1:42:26 It's it's narcissism, but it's not hotness is what it comes down to.

1:42:29 You want somebody who really makes you bigger and better and somebody who

1:42:33 and and and somebody who makes you complete in in its own way.

1:42:37 And so that's one of the things that that's actually setting people back.

1:42:39 You can't It's very hard to meet people

1:42:41 outside of technology today is what we find.

1:42:44 Right.

1:42:44 Well, I mean, because that's how people are meeting each other.

1:42:47 And so what does what does what do these young 20-somethings do?

1:42:51 What do they need to do, actually,

1:42:52 is that actually it's is is finding better ways to meet people IRL.

1:42:56 And and generally speaking, that means around mutual interests,

1:43:00 finding people who are different than you around mutual interests.

1:43:03 And so I recommend young people all the time um you know,

1:43:06 they'll say, "Well, I'm not religious." I say, "I don't care.

1:43:09 I'm not just practice.

1:43:11 Just do a thing, right?

1:43:12 There's And for example, they'll say that they're, you know,

1:43:15 raised Jewish or something, but they don't feel they're not religious at all.

1:43:17 I say, "There's one temple in town where the young single people go.

1:43:22 I don't know where you live, but it's true.

1:43:24 Figure out where it is and just go with an open mind because

1:43:28 you're trying to fill your heart in all sorts of different ways potentially.

1:43:31 If that's not your thing, it's like join a running club.

1:43:34 I don't run.

1:43:35 I don't care.

1:43:36 You know, you're going to join a running club because you

1:43:38 want to meet people around something that's actually good and healthy.

1:43:41 I want to join a book club, whatever it happens to be,

1:43:44 around something interesting cuz mutual

1:43:46 interest is really really really critical.

1:43:48 Aristotle talked about the the the the perfect friendship,

1:43:52 which is not transactional.

1:43:54 The perfect friendship is usually based around a third thing that we both love.

1:43:58 Now, that's why couples, they'll it you know,

1:44:02 the the their mutual third love is generally speaking kids, right?

1:44:06 Is that thing.

1:44:07 But that's not enough.

1:44:09 That's why they need something else that they truly love,

1:44:11 which is why the most successful couples also have a metaphysical love.

1:44:14 They have a divine love together.

1:44:16 That's long-term stability because you're going to walk into the future shoulder

1:44:21 to shoulder for the rest of your lives is actually how that's developed.

1:44:25 So I tell young people is something besides that.

1:44:28 Second thing I tell young people, if they're actually trying to meet the person,

1:44:32 is everybody who knows you really well and loves

1:44:34 you is on notice that that's what you want.

1:44:37 Cuz in the old days, the people who really love you,

1:44:40 the people that they set you up with are enough like you, but not too much.

1:44:45 That's what the matchmaker was really good at.

1:44:47 Now, it doesn't mean it's going to be perfect.

1:44:50 It's also the case that bad behavior is

1:44:52 a lot less common when it's a mutual friend.

1:44:54 You're not going to get ghosted by somebody who's going to be

1:44:57 in the bad graces of the person who who who who recommended you to them.

1:45:02 And so having people on lookout

1:45:04 for for the person and that's not normal these days,

1:45:07 but that those are the techniques.

1:45:09 Those are the old school techniques that people actually need

1:45:11 that that are most likely to lead to permanent love relationships today.

1:45:15 Yeah.

1:45:16 I think even just um relationships and friendships are even that's a a struggle,

1:45:21 you know, for for Actually, I would say each young people.

1:45:24 I mean, young people we have a lot of social media,

1:45:27 like groups gathering together.

1:45:29 They're going out and you know,

1:45:30 what are doing dinners or going to the, you know,

1:45:33 clubs or whatever and they're just they go

1:45:35 because they don't want to miss out, right?

1:45:37 That fear of missing out, fear of missing out.

1:45:38 And then you know, how how deep are those relationships?

1:45:43 So I think a common theme I'm hearing

1:45:45 that people and experiences are very important for happiness.

1:45:48 Extremely important happiness.

1:45:50 But the relationships aren't just these sort of shallow,

1:45:54 you know, relationships.

1:45:55 They They you have to put work into them, right?

1:45:58 Yeah, they take work.

1:45:59 They take work.

1:45:59 Yeah, real friendships um the And it's by by the way,

1:46:03 people all grown-up people with successful careers,

1:46:07 they can be super lonely, too,

1:46:09 because they've atrophied all their real relationships.

1:46:11 They're They might be in a cold marriage,

1:46:13 but they have only deal friends and no real friends.

1:46:16 Real and deal are different.

1:46:18 We all actually know that.

1:46:19 Real friends require work.

1:46:21 Right.

1:46:21 So how would like First of all, let's say someone did atrophy their friends.

1:46:25 Maybe they they haven't put in the work and they're feeling it, right?

1:46:29 They're feeling They're feeling lonely.

1:46:31 They're not feeling connected.

1:46:32 Maybe they don't have a spouse or maybe they lost their spouse.

1:46:34 Right.

1:46:35 How do they how do they rekindle that?

1:46:37 What kind of work do you have to put in?

1:46:39 Yeah, you need to generally speaking,

1:46:41 the best way to do this is to reconnect with people

1:46:42 from the past and and find people that you really connect to.

1:46:45 So [clears throat]

1:46:47 um when I was started to do this work, I realized, you know, I was you know,

1:46:51 I've been working my, you know,

1:46:52 busting [clears throat] my pick forever, you know.

1:46:55 And in the middle of my academic career, I left to run a company and I was

1:46:58 the CEO of this big think tank in Washington, D.C.

1:47:00 for 11 years.

1:47:00 And that was 80 hours a week for 11 years.

1:47:03 And my kids grew up during that period.

1:47:05 I didn't I worked that 14th hour before the first hour with my kids alive.

1:47:09 I missed a lot of them growing up.

1:47:10 It was a because of, you know, cuz I'm, you know,

1:47:12 I'm a striver and I've chosen to be special

1:47:15 rather than happy a whole lot in my life.

1:47:18 I've made that mistake a whole lot of times.

1:47:20 And I did a lot of soul-searching on the basis of it.

1:47:22 One of the reasons that I do dedicate my work exclusively

1:47:26 to the science of happiness today is cuz I want it, Rhonda.

1:47:28 I want it.

1:47:29 I want it and and I know that it doesn't come easy to me.

1:47:32 I'm not talented at this stuff.

1:47:34 I got to do the work myself is what it comes down to.

1:47:37 One of the areas of my life where I was weakest was friendship.

1:47:40 I mean, I just I didn't do the work.

1:47:43 I was working all the time.

1:47:44 It takes work to have real friends.

1:47:46 By the way, that means useless.

1:47:48 Doesn't mean useful.

1:47:49 Useful friends are deal friends.

1:47:52 Real friends are even if they weren't useful in any other way,

1:47:55 if they were really really useless, you just love them.

1:47:58 Right?

1:47:59 You're not compensated in any worldly way from these people.

1:48:02 You love them.

1:48:02 And and and for strivers, it's like, "I don't got time.

1:48:05 I don't have time for that.

1:48:06 I don't have time for that." And I realized that had been me and so

1:48:08 I rekindled relationships in the past and I started dedicating real time to it.

1:48:12 And now I meet people and when I make a connection with a, you know,

1:48:17 somebody my age, somebody younger, somebody older, I I do more work on it.

1:48:22 You know, I set time aside.

1:48:23 I cold call my friends.

1:48:25 I text a lot.

1:48:26 You know, I have a friend I made two years ago when I was, I guess, 59.

1:48:32 I love the guy.

1:48:33 I love the guy.

1:48:34 We just actually hung out as couples up in Camarillo

1:48:37 the other just last weekend and and for no reason.

1:48:40 For no reason at all.

1:48:41 I mean, I don't He needs nothing from me.

1:48:43 I need nothing from him, but he's great.

1:48:46 And I just wouldn't have done that 10 years ago.

1:48:48 I mean, this is great because, you know,

1:48:49 also men struggle with keeping relationships like friendships, right?

1:48:54 I mean, they rely a lot on Dudes aren't good at this.

1:48:56 No.

1:48:56 And and how important is it for them to to really try and like like you said,

1:49:01 you know, find find the real friends, maybe just maybe one or two, whatever,

1:49:05 to like and try to connect with them and schedule

1:49:09 things whether it's coffee or you know a little getaway.

1:49:13 Yeah.

1:49:13 Women are better at this in no small part because

1:49:15 women naturally have more developed right hemispheres of the brain.

1:49:19 Women are more generally adroit at love.

1:49:23 They're better at love.

1:49:24 They're better at mystery and meaning than men are.

1:49:26 Men have generally more developed left hemispheres

1:49:29 of their brain which is why little boys like trains.

1:49:32 You know, that's like how does that work, right?