Rick Reeves | Keep Hammering Collective | Episode 189

0:00 Every step I take, I move my truth.

0:02 Every time they tell me stop by you.

0:04 Every comment, hate that makes my fuel.

0:06 Gather up my energy and boom.

0:07 I hear them talking saying the way that I move is so reckless.

0:10 That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with.

0:12 Give them my blood.

0:12 So I am relentless.

0:15 This is a Keep Hamry Collective.

0:17 I'm with Rick Reeves.

0:19 He is the pastor of my church.

0:21 Well, I it's not really my church.

0:22 It's a church.

0:23 I go sometimes.

0:25 I should go more often, but uh Gospel Community Church and Rick Reeves.

0:29 What?

0:30 You at least got the name right, so that's a good start.

0:32 Well, I had to look at the hat.

0:36 So, props there for you.

0:37 No.

0:37 Yeah, we got Hey, we're branding, dude.

0:39 It's merchandise.

0:41 Um, so yeah, what's up?

0:44 Yeah.

0:44 Well, first I'm excited to be here.

0:45 So, thanks for having me.

0:47 But uh yeah, this this kind of started off because I said, "Hey,

0:50 we're planting a church down in Roseberg and you've

0:54 given me a hard time for that." So

0:58 yeah,

0:58 we can share those comments or not about how your

1:00 whole faith is going to fall apart and all of that.

1:04 Yeah, because we're going to go plant another church.

1:05 But yeah, we planted Gospel Community Church in Eugene about 10 years ago.

1:08 Now we're going to go plant a a church down in Roseber,

1:10 which is where I grew up.

1:12 And so we started a conversation and uh you said

1:15 we should get you on the podcast.

1:16 Yeah.

1:16 So, yeah.

1:17 Well, you have a So, I'll give it the Cliff's Notes version.

1:21 Um, small town up like like me.

1:24 So, we have that.

1:25 I mean, we got a bond there.

1:27 Um, which that I I like people with flaws.

1:30 So, just to be honest, you like crazy.

1:32 I like crazy.

1:33 You're drawn to crazy.

1:33 I like flaws.

1:34 If you've had a perfect life, get away from me, okay?

1:37 Because I can't learn[ __] from you.

1:39 But so I've always really liked um and also I like for whatever I'm

1:45 a toxic trait guy but I like like strong therapist told you I guess

1:50 but like even as even as a pastor it's like I want to I

1:53 want to be able to look at somebody and be like okay I respect them.

1:56 I'm going to listen to what they say.

1:57 And if somebody's up there talking about, you know, you know,

2:01 making a carrot cake or uh they went to Orange Theory and they're a guy,

2:07 I'm like, I'm out, dude.

2:08 I can't I can't do I So that's a flaw of mine.

2:12 Yeah.

2:12 Yeah.

2:13 Yeah.

2:13 But anyway, so I liked I liked your sorted past story.

2:17 Then you fought MMA.

2:19 You were the holy terror.

2:21 You had That's right.

2:22 You had a nickname.

2:23 Holy soft now.

2:23 Yeah.

2:24 But yeah.

2:25 So, I just love I I mean, it's just a a cool trajectory, cool arc.

2:31 Um, as long as we don't go back down to where you started.

2:35 Yeah.

2:35 Because you're going back to your your homeland.

2:37 It's I am, which is which is in some ways terrifying.

2:40 So, I was back there for the first time this last week.

2:42 And the start of my sermon was this is this is wild to be here.

2:47 I I said, uh, the gospel is not for little engines that could,

2:52 it's for the train wrecks who can't.

2:54 and and the man standing up here is

2:55 a living testament of that, which is which is true.

2:57 That's not an original quote to me either, by the way.

2:59 But uh and then I looked out, I said, "Cody, I saw a guy there.

3:04 I was like, Cody, I haven't seen you since we

3:05 arrested together 20 years ago at the fair." And you know,

3:08 there's not a worse place to be arrested than than than the fair.

3:12 But uh but yeah, that was the start of it.

3:13 I don't know if Cody will be back, but but yeah,

3:15 that was the start of our first soft launch down there this last Sunday.

3:18 So yeah.

3:19 Yeah.

3:19 So well, it's exciting and also I want to support it.

3:22 So what we talked about is uh you know a church plant takes money um

3:27 you know people whatever you can talk about it not talk about it but it's

3:31 just the facts you got you got to rent a facility you got to pay

3:33 for the music people you got to you know all this stuff chairs whatever

3:38 but uh so I said okay let's do a podcast let's talk about your because

3:42 I like your story your story is cool to me it's just or it's

3:46 uh and it's real and it's like powerful but um so I said let's uh

3:51 let's do a podcast and I'll just say I'm going to give away a bow.

3:54 And how I do that is like I do it

3:56 like one day if you order something off the website you

3:59 can get this I'll pick somebody who orders and they

4:02 get a a brand new top of the line Hoy bow.

4:05 So I said we'll just do that then we'll just use the money

4:08 from that give to you for your church plant and everybody wins.

4:12 Will it look sketchy if I put in for the raffle and then I win?

4:16 No.

4:17 I mean hey you got to work out that with God I guess.

4:21 Oh, as long as he's cool with it,

4:22 what what doesn't matter what I care or think or say.

4:26 Oh, yeah.

4:27 So, so going back, a a big draw for you since since we're here right

4:33 in front of each other now and uh and and uh

4:37 we we won't rehash everything from breakfast yesterday.

4:39 Okay.

4:39 But, uh a a big draw for you to Gospel Community Church was

4:45 what what you would say is the transparency

4:47 or the authenticity or something like that.

4:49 Mhm.

4:50 Is is is that what drew you in?

4:53 Yeah.

4:53 I mean I I like I said I like people

4:57 I mean our our our our dating relationship started at the Pancake House, right?

5:00 Yeah.

5:00 Like years ago, you mean?

5:02 Yeah.

5:02 Yeah.

5:03 Yeah.

5:03 You came and then you had your wife come and fill out the church first.

5:06 So what I said was, you know,

5:08 you talked to me about your church and I don't know if you

5:10 wanted me to go or invited me or something like that, but I'm like,

5:14 um, that's my wife's saying.

5:15 I'll get her on it.

5:17 So then you kind of grilled me yesterday about why is it your your wife?

5:22 Why is it your wife's thing?

5:23 And I'm like my cuz I'm too flawed.

5:25 I mean I I say I can I can pretend with the best of them, right?

5:30 I'm I'm[ __] I can be fake as[ __] But

5:34 as I told you yesterday is I'm the one who has

5:36 to look myself in the mirror and no matter you said,

5:38 "Well, you're here at church every Sunday." Not every Sunday,

5:41 but I try to go when I'm I'm in town.

5:43 I always go and uh I'm there.

5:45 I I you know read the read some scripture.

5:48 I don't read enough but read some scriptures, go to church, do my thing.

5:53 So it seems like on the surface that doing pretty good and then I

5:58 look myself in the mirror and then I have to be like you are fake.

6:02 you are cuz I know when I get mad at somebody driving and I'm like want them

6:08 to crash or I want to make them crash or you know you see a cute girl,

6:14 you notice a cute girl and you're like what is wrong with me?

6:19 So I'm the person who has to look myself in the mirror.

6:21 So it's like I'm always torn between how I should be and how I am.

6:26 Yeah.

6:27 Yeah.

6:27 All right.

6:28 Yeah.

6:28 So there's a lot there.

6:30 Yeah, there is.

6:31 Yeah.

6:31 So, since you invited a pastor on your podcast and you're a pastor,

6:34 which means I get to talk about Jesus and the gospel a lot.

6:37 So, and so I I'll reiterate what I said yesterday.

6:40 Well, I'll say this.

6:41 I think there's a massive misconception of what the message of Christianity is.

6:46 Massive.

6:46 And I know it sounds dramatic to say massive, but but I I think it's true.

6:50 I I think often times you'll ask people, "Hey,

6:53 how's your faith?" or "How's your walk?" or something like that.

6:56 And people commonly respond with, "Man, I'm trying hard.

6:58 I'm doing this.

6:59 I'm doing this." and and the and the message

7:01 of Christ Christianity isn't I'm trying hard.

7:04 It's I'm trusting, I'm believing,

7:06 I'm I'm resting in the sufficiency of what Christ has done.

7:09 And so the the the world says, well, Nike says you can do it.

7:14 Christianity starts with something completely opposite.

7:16 It says you can't do it.

7:18 You can't live a good enough life.

7:20 Uh all have fallen short.

7:22 All all have missed the mark.

7:23 And so that's that to me that's

7:25 a freeing starting point because just like that's honest.

7:27 And then you read the Bible and you see people that are just absolute screw-ups.

7:31 Like I'm drawn to the Bible because I read it and I'm like,

7:33 man, God uses the Davids.

7:36 Like look at David's story.

7:38 And and so you look at stories like that and then you start to realize

7:40 it God really does save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

7:44 And so it's really not about us measuring up.

7:46 It's realizing right out of the gate that we

7:48 don't submit a report card of B minuses.

7:50 We just turn in our report card of Fs.

7:53 Mhm.

7:53 And then we put our trust and faith in the life,

7:55 death, and resurrection of Jesus.

7:56 and he says, "Here's my report card of A+, flawless,

8:00 perfect, righteous, holy." And he transfers that to us.

8:03 So, I I think there's a massive misunder

8:05 which is why I'm passionate about preaching the gospel.

8:07 I have a hard time believing that.

8:09 Like, I can tell you trust in that, believe

8:11 in that, believe that God's love is unwavering and and doesn't falter.

8:16 But I preach it so passionately because I have a hard time believing it.

8:19 And we talked about this yesterday, like I believe.

8:20 Help me with my unbelief.

8:23 Yeah.

8:22 I preach the gospel passionately because I

8:24 have a hard time actually believing it.

8:26 Uh, I I preach the gospel passionately because I

8:29 I find myself defining myself by my own failures, my own faults, my own sins,

8:32 the same things you just said or all the things that I struggle with.

8:35 And if any honest pastor in the world out there is being honest,

8:38 the man in the pulpit is not saying I need less of God's grace.

8:41 They're in the pulpit saying, "Man, I'm I'm the one who is up here declaring

8:46 my massive need of God's grace." So So yeah, Billy Graham.

8:50 Yeah.

8:50 Well, here's the thing.

8:51 He seems pretty damn dialed in.

8:55 Yeah.

8:55 Yeah.

8:56 But I think if you sat Billy Graham down

8:58 and sat any honest man down and said, "Man,

9:02 where do you struggle?" Like there's a pastor

9:04 I look up to, his name's John Piper,

9:05 and uh they said, you know, someone asked him what's been hard.

9:09 And he he said, "The process of sanctification.

9:11 That's what's been hard." I'm like, John Piper said that?

9:13 I look at that guy, I'm like, man,

9:14 that guy is as buttoned up as they come, you know?

9:17 So, well, define sanctification for me.

9:19 Yeah.

9:19 Yeah.

9:20 Please remember me.

9:21 This will be good.

9:21 This will be good.

9:22 Yeah.

9:22 So sanctification, the the way that people commonly define it

9:26 is the process in which we grow into Christ likeness.

9:31 Here's the thing.

9:32 The the majority of the times that it's used in the New Testament,

9:35 it's talking about a past tense event.

9:37 Because what the New Testament is commonly

9:39 saying is that you have been sanctified.

9:41 And that word actually means that you've been made holy and set apart.

9:45 And so the problem is and and and this goes back

9:49 to the problem with Christianity is people confuse and conflate two doctrines.

9:53 Justification and sanctification.

9:56 Justification says that you are legally declared

9:59 righteous by your faith in Jesus Christ.

10:01 So here's here's the simplest way to understand

10:04 it and maybe a way to remember it.

10:06 Justification is that you're justified and it's just as if I'd never sinned.

10:11 Okay?

10:12 So, so what happens when we're justified by God through

10:14 our faith in Jesus Christ is our res our sins are removed.

10:18 They were placed on him.

10:19 God's wrath punished Christ instead of us.

10:22 And our and then the result is our sins are removed.

10:24 But it doesn't stop there.

10:25 It's just as if I'd never sinned.

10:27 But it's also just as if I'd always lived a holy and obedient life

10:31 because now the life of Christ is transferred to us and that belongs to us.

10:34 This is why this is huge.

10:37 Uh a couple years ago I was meeting with a young

10:39 guy and maybe you can relate to this cuz I can.

10:41 and he kept telling me about something that he

10:42 did uh a couple months back and he's like,

10:44 "Yeah, but you don't get it.

10:46 I did this.

10:46 You don't get it.

10:47 I did this." I'm like, "Hey,

10:48 I don't know what you're referring to and I don't know what you did

10:51 two months ago." But if your faith is in Jesus Christ, I do know this.

10:56 Then you're not defined by what you did two months ago.

10:58 You're defined by what Christ did for you 2,000 years ago on the cross.

11:03 And you got to stop defining yourself by your life,

11:06 your actions, your failures, or even your so-called success,

11:09 and start being defined by Christ's obedience, his righteousness,

11:13 his uh perfection, his success, because that belongs to you through faith.

11:18 Like our faith, our faith in Christ, which our faith is a gift from God, too.

11:22 Credits Christ's righteousness to our account.

11:24 So that's justification.

11:25 Just as if I'd never sinned, but just as if I'd always been obedient.

11:27 So what's crazy is God looks at Rick and sees a perfect obedient man.

11:32 Not because I am, but because Christ was in my place.

11:35 And then now what what I do is is I recognize that that is true.

11:42 And then I start living a life consistent

11:44 to who I am as a new creation in Christ.

11:45 And I will grow in sanctification.

11:47 Here's the problem.

11:49 Many people many people base their justification

11:54 on their sanctification instead of their sanctification on their justification,

11:57 which is even more confusing.

11:58 But it means this.

11:59 My security isn't how much I'm growing.

12:01 My security isn't looking inside of me.

12:03 My security is is what Christ has done and finished for me on the cross.

12:06 He said it is finished.

12:07 Three days later, he rose from the grave.

12:09 He he proved that is true.

12:12 And so I I I as a man no longer have to rest

12:16 and trust in in the life that I lived in my own actions,

12:18 which that's not a copout.

12:20 Mhm.

12:20 But it's really freeing because I believe

12:22 the thing that liberates men and actually

12:25 what's what creates fearless men is men who are loved and and men who

12:28 are loved by God infinitely that are sons of God that are secure

12:33 in that and and now and they now realize I don't need to prove myself

12:38 to the rest of the world.

12:39 Cam I did that

12:41 for years I try to do everything on the outside

12:43 to fix everything that was broken on the inside.

12:45 And that's I think that's an exhausting route that men fall prey to.

12:49 Yeah.

12:49 A lot of them.

12:50 Most of them.

12:51 I I feel I mean you can't relate probably.

12:53 I mean Yeah.

12:55 Yeah.

12:55 No, it's a Well, so when did I mean when did

12:58 you know when did like how did this faith start with you?

13:02 And it's just like when did you when did you know?

13:05 It's messy.

13:05 It doesn't look like it.

13:07 It doesn't look like how I hear people tell their stories.

13:12 Yeah.

13:11 Or like even my mama, my papa that they would say, "When were you saved?" Right.

13:17 Like like you got to have in a journal somewhere like like what was the date

13:21 and

13:21 or your testimony.

13:22 People always say that.

13:23 Yeah.

13:23 And I'm like, man, I don't have a specific date.

13:26 I was 23 years old and it it was a rough night.

13:30 Uh and I woke up and I said, "God, I'm going to try you out.

13:36 I don't know what that looks like, but please help me." That that was my prayer.

13:38 Not the sinner's prayer.

13:39 not not what you're

13:41 and then so I went and got plugged into a church

13:43 and and then came to realize that I am a man who has fallen short.

13:49 I I I I am a sinner in need of God's grace and put my trust and faith in Jesus

13:53 Christ to be the one to pay for those and save

13:55 me and whatnot and end up getting baptized,

13:57 getting plugged into a church, but then my MMA career took me down to Reno.

14:01 So all that happened in Roseburg, but yeah, I was 23

14:04 and it's pretty gray.

14:05 Like I don't have that Yeah.

14:07 just defining clear moment.

14:08 defining and I wish I did because some people do

14:11 and then it makes me go man what's wrong with me

14:14 at times it's made me question whether I am saved

14:16 because I don't have that date like some people do

14:19 cuz you want the all powerful God to show you something like

14:23 yeah I wasn't balling I wasn't it wasn't like this there wasn't this heightened

14:27 emotion and all this stuff like I hear people say they just had

14:29 to pull their car over the side of the road they were crying

14:32 so hard and everything like that it wasn't like that I didn't have that

14:35 um and then

14:37 yeah I think more and more.

14:40 I went from being incredibly rebellious to incredibly re religious overnight.

14:45 And now I was like, "All right,

14:46 now I need to prove God he didn't make

14:47 a mistake." And so then I got exhausted from doing that.

14:50 I'm like, "All right,

14:51 I'm going to show God that that I'm legit."

14:53 And I started to believe the lie that what I

14:55 can do is I can maintain God's love and earn

14:57 God's love by my ongoing obedience instead of realizing the gospel

15:01 through works.

15:01 Yeah.

15:02 Yeah.

15:02 Yeah.

15:02 The the gospel saved me past, present, future.

15:05 It saved me.

15:05 It's saving me now.

15:06 It's going to save me in in the future.

15:07 And so, yeah, that was liberating for me, too.

15:09 But, yeah, not until I was 23 and not

15:13 a typical I walked the aisle or something like that happened.

15:16 Yeah.

15:17 Yeah.

15:18 I mean, I don't know if that decision was like many of the decisions

15:21 I've made in life like where after a crazy night then you're like,

15:25 I'm never drinking again.

15:26 What was I thinking?

15:27 And then the next weekend, guess what I'm doing?

15:30 I've had lots of those, too.

15:32 So, this one was different.

15:33 like that at at 23 though.

15:35 Did you have you never had a back step since then or or Yeah.

15:42 has it been smooth sailing?

15:43 Yeah, that's that's a good question.

15:45 In a lot of ways, I cut a lot of stuff out of my life immediately because

15:49 I knew I didn't have any sort of willpower

15:52 over those things and so like I quit drinking for for years.

15:56 Plus, I was fighting at that time and it's just not, you know, yeah,

15:59 conducive with the diet and whatnot.

16:00 But yeah, no uh I would say that and I

16:06 tell this to our church family all the time.

16:10 When we put our trust and faith in Jesus, we are a saint.

16:14 That means that that we are set apart.

16:16 We are made holy.

16:17 And and I would say I'm a saint who struggles with sin.

16:20 I'm not a sinner trying to become a saint.

16:23 And and so maybe this will answer the question a little bit

16:25 more is I would say I daily wrestle and struggle with sin.

16:29 M

16:29 I I I daily, weekly,

16:32 monthly wrestle with lust and the things that you just mentioned.

16:36 I had an addictive personality on the other side of Christ.

16:39 I still have an addictive personality.

16:40 I'm just sometimes change what I'm addicted to.

16:43 I go through seasons of my life where I have to pull back

16:46 on alcohol because I'm realizing that it's not a gift in this season of life.

16:50 It's becoming my God.

16:52 I'm not mastering it.

16:53 It's mastering me.

16:54 And so if you're saying, "Is it buttoned up, polished, prim,

16:57 and pretty?" I think you know I think you know it's not I think it's a glad

17:02 that's a relief for me.

17:03 I mean for people like me because because people from the outside

17:06 in might say oh man how nice would that be just

17:10 never have this weighing on you like never have the pressure

17:13 of being a human a flawed human weighing on you but you do.

17:19 Yeah.

17:18 And and we can't

17:20 we can't beat it on our own.

17:21 I think is the whole point to this.

17:23 Yeah.

17:25 Right.

17:24 Yeah.

17:24 Man, I was sitting down.

17:26 It's one of my favorite places in town, Little Big Burger.

17:29 But I was sitting down in Little Big Burger

17:30 with with one of my friends and former uh

17:32 You love fries, it looks like.

17:33 Dude, I love fries.

17:34 I love truffle fries.

17:37 Big kid.

17:39 That's That's how you win bench press competitions, Cam.

17:42 I know.

17:42 Power, baby.

17:43 I'm Clydesdale, though.

17:44 I'm not going to tell you what my mile pace was today.

17:49 Six.

17:47 What do you six Clydesdale six?

17:51 That's hilarious.

17:52 7:45.

17:53 Not bad.

17:54 Okay.

17:55 Not bad.

17:55 I mean, you're going to gas out after round two

17:58 and then just get the[ __] beat out of your round three.

18:00 I think I could I think I think I had another mile on me at that pace.

18:04 It's probably about it.

18:05 Uh yeah.

18:05 No, but I was sitting down with uh with my friend, former elder Ronnie,

18:09 and um man, he's uh he's he's battled with pornography like his entire life.

18:16 Uh just a radical testimony and story.

18:19 and uh us sitting down with him and and still a as a Christian this is a battle.

18:23 I I think that's the key word and what people maybe mis and understand is

18:26 the battle and the wrestle is is is a is a is a good thing

18:30 like that's the sign of the spirit working inside

18:33 of you when you are battling and resisting because there are

18:37 things that I used to not battle and not resist

18:39 I just gave way to them but I asked Ronnie I

18:41 said hey if I gave you a pill right now

18:44 and uh said if you swallow this pill you'll never

18:47 struggle with pornography again or with lust would you swallow

18:49 the pill and he said no and I was like what

18:52 and he said, "Here's my fear." He said, "If I swallow that pill,

18:58 then right now, my struggle with pornography and lust," he goes,

19:05 "Though I hate it, keeps me buried on my knees and dependent

19:09 upon Christ and the cross." And he goes, "If that's removed,

19:14 my my my bigger fear is that my pride

19:16 would destroy me." And so I was like, "Whoa,

19:18 I've never heard someone say that before." Like I assume I'm like if I

19:20 got a pill for you and it'll just fix everything, you would take it.

19:22 But but from his perspective, he's like, man, this thing is keeping me buried.

19:25 Now, I'm not saying that Ronnie was saying or anyone saying that, yeah,

19:28 just keep marching on after it.

19:29 But he's saying, man,

19:30 this thing keeps him humble and dependent upon the cross and upon Jesus.

19:34 So

19:35 yeah, that's a good perspective.

19:37 Yeah.

19:36 Yeah.

19:37 I hadn't thought of that or heard that either, but

19:40 yeah.

19:40 Yeah.

19:40 Because there's plenty of stuff that

19:43 that I wish it would go away.

19:44 I also don't think it's helpful for some guys.

19:49 I think they think that the way to overcome sin is by hating yourself

19:53 and hating sin.

19:55 But that's still all about that's self-centered.

19:57 It's still all about you and what you're doing.

19:59 And I think the what what we need to point people

20:04 to is stop looking at yourself and start looking at Christ.

20:08 And so you you're still just focused on hating yourself and and wallowing

20:13 in your sin and and and self-hatred and self-loathing and stuff like that.

20:16 That's still not loving Christ.

20:17 And that's still not being satisfied in Christ's love for you.

20:20 And so I want to redirect people from,

20:23 hey, yeah, put your sin to death, but just hating it isn't going to do that.

20:26 What actually is is actually feeding on how amazing Christ is, what he's done,

20:30 what he's paid for, what he's purchased for you,

20:32 who you are, how God sees you, how he loves you.

20:36 Yeah.

20:36 I think men who are the most secure, fierce,

20:41 and in whatever they do, I I'll tie this into fighting.

20:45 Okay, I started fighting as a non-Christian and I was juiced out of my mind.

20:48 So, backstory, grew up in a

20:53 sometimes when guys say they're like, "Man,

20:54 I grew up in a really rough household.

20:56 You know, my dad was mean to me." I think I

20:58 have a lot I have a hard time with that because

21:01 I know what my household looked like and I know

21:03 what my relationship with my my my dad looked like.

21:08 So having a spanking might have been traumatizing for you,

21:12 but having a bloody nose and black eyes is is much different, right?

21:18 So so grow up in this grow up by just a rough nose, tough dad.

21:22 I was telling yesterday my dad's 6'5 300 lb.

21:24 I see my dad literally get more fights than anyone else period.

21:28 Uh I mean my dad made the paper in Roseberg.

21:31 I've seen him knock out people's teeth with a mag flashlight before.

21:34 So just a fierce fierce guy.

21:36 Uh so grow up in this family and I'm tiny.

21:41 Yeah.

21:41 Tiny.

21:41 I'm skinny.

21:41 I'm little.

21:42 I think I felt like I hit puberty when I was 18.

21:44 So late bloomer.

21:47 Yeah.

21:46 Uh just super insecure.

21:50 Mhm.

21:49 And the way I deal with that is

21:51 what everyone does is what's wrong on the inside,

21:52 we think we're going to fix it by doing something on the outside.

21:54 And so I I take three trips down to Tijana over the next 3 years.

22:00 Rested two out of those three, taken to see the judge once.

22:05 Which, by the way, they gave me all of my stuff back every time.

22:07 That was nice.

22:08 Yeah, it was really nice.

22:08 He even told me the best way to get out of town.

22:10 So that's how you usually hear those stories.

22:14 No.

22:13 Anytime we go to Mexico now or if we're on vacation, I'm so nervous.

22:16 My wife's like, "What's wrong with you?" I'm like,

22:18 "They can arrest you anytime." So,

22:21 uh, so yeah, I I decided I'm going to get on roids and

22:25 fix fix all that I don't like about me.

22:28 Uh, was an angry kid.

22:30 Got into fighting.

22:31 Well, steroids will help.

22:33 Steroids will help.

22:34 Yeah, man.

22:34 My first fight, the majority of my professional career was at 170,

22:38 but my first amateur fight was at 205.

22:40 Yeah.

22:40 And they didn't test.

22:41 So, I was like, this man Yeah.

22:43 I felt I I remember looking across.

22:45 is like this this poor guy, he's got like 21 years of just scars and anger

22:51 and just wrath and bitterness built up just coming at him.

22:55 Uh but but my amateur career,

22:58 I was doing that and and uh taking steroids and and then I quit.

23:04 Not because of Jesus.

23:05 I wasn't a Christian at this point or anything like that.

23:06 I just decided I didn't want people to say,

23:08 "Oh, anything that Rick did, it was because of steroids." Yeah.

23:11 So, but I lost and I was so wrecked by losing

23:16 that I stayed in the locker room until

23:17 everyone at the fights left till the entire place

23:21 was empty cuz I couldn't face people is like I

23:23 built up my reputation or identity of being tough and

23:26 and then my sister at the time she goes

23:29 uh she goes dad told me got beat up by like some skinny gr scrawny guy.

23:33 I got introduced to jiu-jitsu.

23:34 I just thought you could just throw haymakers and win fights.

23:37 And then some skinny, scrawny dude put me in a triangle choke.

23:41 People thought I was winning cuz I was just hammer fisting him.

23:43 And then all of a sudden,

23:46 yeah, tapping.

23:46 It's happening.

23:48 The thing that changed is that uh finished my amateur career,

23:52 started my professional career, that took me down to Reno.

23:55 And uh what changed is this.

23:59 I felt a tremendous amount of freedom when I understood that my identity

24:04 was no longer in being a fighter and trying to prove myself,

24:06 but my identity was given to me as a free gift by God.

24:09 So, my identity was that I'm a son of God who's infinitely loved.

24:12 And nothing or no one could possibly change that or take away that.

24:17 You've been around our church long enough.

24:18 I ask my kids almost every night, "Why does dad love you?"

24:21 And they say, "Because I'm your son or because I'm your daughter." So,

24:24 the essence of my love is connected to that relational reality.

24:27 Every man needs to hear that because it's freeing.

24:30 Because now for the first time,

24:31 I remember just like running out to the ring with excitement.

24:33 I was like, for the first time,

24:34 I don't feel the weight of whatever happens to me in there is going

24:38 to define me to my core and and I don't know how to face people.

24:41 I was like, I'm a son of God who gets to go in there, lay it all down,

24:45 but it's not going to wreck me if I lose.

24:47 It's not I'm not I'll be able to face people and and those types of things.

24:50 And so, yeah, that was the most freeing and most powerful thing to me,

24:54 which I tell my kids,

24:55 I'm like, man, you want to see who's free and fierce in any sport or whatever.

24:59 Those that are loved.

25:01 Yeah.

25:01 And so, so yeah, that's what I'm passionate about.

25:04 Um, I think that I mean,

25:06 men are kind of judged on accomplishments and worth and like

25:11 that's how their worth is like what can you offer,

25:13 what can you provide, what can you do.

25:15 So it's like we talk about this works and it's like

25:17 it's not what you do but we are society tells us

25:20 for a man I mean there's that meme that says

25:22 the only thing that that gets unconditional love is women and dogs.

25:27 Men hit the oil rig.

25:31 Yeah.

25:30 You know and get to work.

25:33 Yeah.

25:32 It's like so it's really hard for a lot of people like you had that that moment

25:36 or that clarity or that change but a lot

25:39 of guys are still fighting with I got to prove myself.

25:43 Yeah.

25:43 cuz everyone's judging me.

25:45 It's like

25:46 you go to work and you're like, "Oh, what's your job?" "Oh,

25:48 they pay how much they pay there." You know,

25:51 so now it's like, "Oh, how much do I make?

25:53 What's my salary?

25:54 What kind of car do you drive?" You know,

25:56 it's like we're always and it we put ourselves

26:00 in those positions and then we're then we're like dancing

26:03 with the devil like trying to always outdo this guy

26:07 or that guy or prove to this girl that you're better.

26:11 It's like it's tough.

26:12 Yeah.

26:12 So is the I mean it's more than tough.

26:15 It's exhausting.

26:17 And

26:18 is the answer faith?

26:20 Faith and just

26:22 Yeah.

26:22 You want me to get your couch?

26:23 This sounds like it's going to be good, man.

26:24 And lay down.

26:25 No, I'm just like it's it's just a hard I appreciate you saying that.

26:30 Yeah.

26:29 Yeah.

26:30 I I think everything is is coming at men

26:33 inside the world saying you need to prove yourself.

26:37 Yeah.

26:36 You you need to work hard.

26:38 And there's some aspects of that where I would say Yeah.

26:41 because in in some ways I think men are running in the opposite

26:44 direction even from their God- created design on on on some of those things.

26:50 Mhm.

26:49 Um what what I would say though is that since you're a runner,

26:54 I I'll I'll use this analogy.

26:56 I'm a bow hunter.

26:59 Okay.

27:01 So am I, Cam?

27:02 There's the difference between you and me is that Yeah.

27:05 You have animals hanging on your wall.

27:06 So you got camo.

27:08 I'm I'm a bow hiker.

27:10 I do have camo.

27:13 Yeah.

27:14 Uh is if two guys line up on a race

27:17 or or line up to run a marathon think about this.

27:23 If the one guy steps up there and says,

27:25 "Hey man, everything in my life is riding on this moment.

27:29 uh like if I don't win this race,

27:32 if I don't perform well, if I don't get first place,

27:37 if I don't accomplish it, like I lose this, this, this, and this, right?

27:41 And then another guy steps up and and he's getting

27:43 ready to race and he's kind of, I don't know,

27:46 bouncing around, whatever you guys do before you get ready for a race.

27:49 Yeah.

27:49 Adjust a jock strap, stuff like that.

27:54 Yeah.

27:53 Oh, and uh and and there's a pep in his step.

27:57 If if that second runner gets up and knows this, that at the end

28:01 of the day that his life isn't resting and trusting in the race that he runs,

28:05 but in someone else who ran a perfect race 2,000 years ago,

28:09 and that what someone ultimately needs is

28:11 not how they can prove themselves externally,

28:13 but they need to be proven before God.

28:15 And only Christ can do that.

28:16 I do believe that in the depths of who you are,

28:19 like every man's soul needs that.

28:21 Like I think men are trying to prove themselves and and and and show something.

28:25 And at the end of the day there there is this freedom in saying hey I don't have

28:30 to prove myself and and and again uh I'm not defined by what I do or don't do.

28:37 Christ proved me worthy through his life

28:40 and I'm defined by his actions not my own.

28:43 Like Christ ran the perfect race and that race belongs to me.

28:46 The ultimate thing that Cam needs that every man

28:49 needs is they need the approval and love of God.

28:51 Whether men want to admit that or not, it it's like we're afraid to to say that.

28:54 But that's what men need.

28:55 And so I think so much stuff that we're trying to do is trying to, you know,

29:01 appease the world or prove ourselves.

29:03 But to who?

29:04 Because I think the ultimate person we need to be proven to is God.

29:06 And someone else takes care of that.

29:08 His name is Jesus.

29:09 And so I do think that's freeing.

29:11 And men need to hear that.

29:13 I don't think it means that men just

29:17 roll over and become lazy and apathetic though.

29:19 Yeah.

29:20 cuz I as I'm the contrarian like I'm always like

29:25 oh you oh sounds like an excuse to be weak

29:28 what I just heard but so what I would say

29:30 to that is like I love that and it's like

29:34 you know mentally and spiritually it makes perfect sense but

29:37 if the guy who maybe he doesn't believe in anything

29:41 he's chasing his own ego but he worked his ass off he put in the hard

29:45 training he's been sacrificing for years

29:48 and this guy goes to church every Sunday.

29:50 He knows he doesn't have to do it for anybody, but he didn't train.

29:54 He's going to get his ass kicked.

29:55 I don't care who's in his corner.

29:57 So, like, I can I look I know

30:00 what you're saying and I'm like I'm thinking about,

30:03 yeah, that's a spiritual world, but

30:05 I'm talking about competition, baby.

30:09 So the the best the best would be you're saved,

30:15 un unyielding faith, and you worked your ass off.

30:19 Yeah.

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32:40 1 Corinthians 15, the Apostle Paul says this verse 10.

32:44 He says, uh, "By the grace of God, I am what I am,

32:48 but his, uh, but his grace to me was not in vain.

32:50 In fact, I worked harder than anyone else." else.

32:52 Then he goes on to say, "But it wasn't I.

32:53 It was God's grace that did it in me." And so again, I would say

32:58 do all Cam, you're sitting in front of someone

33:00 who's one of the most competitive people in the world.

33:04 Uh you can ask my wife that.

33:05 And it caused fights when we were dating until

33:07 our counselor told us to stop doing competitive things.

33:09 I don't let my kids win.

33:11 My one of my daughters is just like me.

33:13 She'll flip over Monopoly or checkers board and stuff like that.

33:16 We're just we're sore losers and I'm a and and I'm

33:18 a even I'm more of a sore winner.

33:20 So, I do victory laps around my house.

33:22 Like, it's not it's not pleasant.

33:24 Uh, but at the end of the day, the difference is still this.

33:28 Work hard at whatever you do.

33:30 And I was told this once by uh Brandon Slay.

33:32 He was a freestyle gold medalist wrestler.

33:35 And uh I was struggling because some some Christians from the Christian

33:38 community were coming toward me while I was a Christian saying,

33:40 "Hey, you can't keep fighting.

33:41 Like, you can't punch someone in the face.

33:42 Like, you can't do all this, you know?" And so,

33:44 I was getting rattled because I was like,

33:45 you know, and so he was like, "Hey, Rick,

33:47 whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." He's like,

33:49 "Every double leg I take, every single leg," he's like, "I'm giving it 110%."

33:54 For the glory of God.

33:55 But at the end of the day, Brandon Slade doesn't have to walk off the mat

34:00 and feel like he's an utter failure in life,

34:02 unless the only thing that's giving him his identity is his wrestling ability.

34:06 And and if the only thing that's giving Cam, you know,

34:10 his his his identity in life is a bow hunter, you know,

34:13 you you and I both know that's a horrible identity because

34:17 bow hunting has the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.

34:19 And year after year,

34:21 you can drive home empty-handed and feeling like a complete failure.

34:25 And so it's it's not that you stop trying, it's not that you give up,

34:28 it's not that you don't put in the effort,

34:30 it's just that your whole motivation changes.

34:32 Your your fuel for the motivation changes.

34:35 uh if that makes sense.

34:36 Yeah.

34:36 No, it does.

34:38 It's uh yeah, it's just Yeah, it's hard.

34:41 Um just uh I guess breaking that down in the competition aspect.

34:46 In regular life, it's super easy.

34:47 You always, you know, and there's that.

34:49 It's not even like in I don't think it's in the Bible,

34:50 but maybe it's a ten commandment,

34:52 but it's like treat others the way you like to be treated, blah blah blah.

34:55 All that sounds great.

34:56 Sounds great.

34:58 That's not competition.

35:00 Yeah.

35:00 But so anyway, that's where um cuz like to compete for me,

35:05 I want to hate everyone and crush everyone.

35:09 And like that doesn't seem very Christian-like.

35:13 Yeah.

35:14 Yeah.

35:15 Define what you mean by that.

35:16 Like when when when you are competing against someone, I just want to win.

35:22 You you just want to win.

35:26 Yeah.

35:24 Yeah.

35:25 Uh, do you think there's something intrinsically wrong or evil with the desire?

35:33 Yeah.

35:33 Yeah.

35:33 I don't I don't know.

35:35 Not with you, but with the desire to win.

35:37 I think it's a it's a validation of the hard work you put in.

35:40 You want to prove to yourself and to others that, you know,

35:43 everybody see social media, everybody sees the[ __] everybody does every day.

35:47 It's just like, why are you doing that?

35:49 You suck at running.

35:50 So, you want to you want to be like, "No,

35:51 I'm doing all this work." And look, see what happened?

35:54 Okay.

35:54 So, give me a like on there.

35:56 And I think it's just Yeah.

35:59 So, I think it's that I think it's like you want to be acknowledged.

36:03 And that's another thing men want to be

36:04 acknowledged and respected and and so sometimes these works,

36:08 these accomplishments give us that.

36:12 Yeah.

36:11 And it's hard to get that just like cuz to get that in regular

36:15 like maybe a regular Christian I don't even know what Christian life is,

36:18 but a regular like whatever normal people do which I have no idea.

36:21 I always said I never wanted a regular life,

36:24 but if you're just talking to a normal guy from down the street,

36:27 whatever they talk about, I have no idea.

36:29 I don't even want to be involved in this conversation.

36:31 But how do you earn respect like in that situation?

36:35 I guess it's just being intelligent, uh,

36:38 having putting things in perspective,

36:41 maybe listening, offering advice, I guess, right?

36:44 Yeah.

36:45 So, you're saying for the average Joe that's walking just down the street?

36:50 Yeah.

36:52 Yeah.

36:51 Yeah.

36:52 Cuz when I see the average Joe walking down the street,

36:56 the first thing I'm thinking is not respect.

37:00 Yeah.

37:00 So, like that's where I, you know, like I said, I'm toxic,

37:03 so I'm not trying to like say this is how people should be.

37:06 This is a flaw.

37:07 Yeah.

37:07 Again, I don't think you're crazy and I don't

37:10 think you're the only one that has those thoughts.

37:13 And and part of that, correct me if I'm wrong,

37:16 is is part of that is that you don't want to be average.

37:19 No, that's fail.

37:20 That's a failure.

37:22 Yeah, it's it's kind of like Achilles line in Troy.

37:25 He he wants to be remembered like like

37:27 like he's willing to go fight a battle, right,

37:29 because he wants his name remembered.

37:31 I think that like I remember Roy had this my my friend, you know,

37:35 most people know who who died in 2015, but we were up on a bear hunt,

37:39 I think the year before, maybe in 2012, hunting brown bear,

37:42 and I did this little video of him

37:44 and he said that um hunting was his missions field.

37:46 He said because hunting is a hard environment.

37:50 It's a tough crowd basically and guys just

37:53 aren't going to listen to you for no reason.

37:55 You have to give them a reason.

37:57 So he said God blessed him with his hunting talents

38:00 to give him a reason for other men to listen to him.

38:04 Like he'd go and speak at Montana Bow Hunters Association thing,

38:07 do a seminar or even in Alaska.

38:09 I spoke in Alaska and I'm like why are these guys listening to me?

38:12 I'm being tough down lower 48 is not being tough in Alaska.

38:16 Alaska is a whole another level.

38:18 So, but through hunting you can kind

38:20 of like even the toughest guys will be like,

38:23 "Okay, he's killed some good bear, maybe some good bulls.

38:26 We'll see what he has to say." But without that, so anyway,

38:29 Roy would say that hunting gave him

38:31 that credibility to where he could uh you know,

38:36 preach to people essentially, not preach,

38:38 but like just share share his journey and they would listen.

38:42 And I I would say yes and amen in the same way that when

38:46 I would receive push back for being a fighter in that community, I said,

38:51 do you think realistically that some average Joe off

38:56 the street or someone who is in choir or something like

39:00 that is going to be able to step into these men's

39:03 life and be able to share the gospel with them?

39:06 Like like do you think that they're going to respect them?

39:09 And I would say no.

39:11 There's a level of respect because of the blood, sweat, and tears.

39:13 And so, in the same way for him,

39:15 which is why I believe that Christians need to be

39:17 deep within their mission field, but not just that.

39:19 This is this where I'm going to agree with you,

39:21 and maybe this will be the only time, Cam.

39:22 So, so I'm good.

39:23 I'm excited.

39:24 Yeah.

39:24 Yeah.

39:24 Is that

39:25 Let's clip this.

39:26 Yeah.

39:26 We got this.

39:27 Yeah.

39:28 Make this the main thing.

39:30 uh is it it pisses me off when anyone in any field isn't

39:37 striving to be the best that they can be in whatever they do.

39:40 So this is this is going to sound so arrogant, so hear me out.

39:45 I literally have told people before that I'm

39:48 trying to be the best preacher in the world,

39:51 which means I'm applying myself.

39:53 I'm reading.

39:54 I'm studying.

39:54 I'm praying for God to grow me in in the gift of preaching.

39:57 Do I think that I'll accomplish it?

39:58 probably not.

40:00 Um, but it's not from a lack of effort or trying to be that.

40:03 And I would say if you are a personal trainer, uh,

40:06 that that that you should strive to be the best possible trainer in the world.

40:10 And I would say if you're a bow hunter, you should strive to be the best.

40:14 Whatever your job or profession is,

40:16 I believe because we are Christian that whatever

40:18 we eat or drink or whatever we do, we're supposed to do it for the glory of God.

40:22 And so I want to do whatever it is that I do to 100% to try to be the best

40:26 at it while at the same time knowing that even if

40:29 I don't arrive at that, it's not going to[ __] me.

40:32 And I think that's the big thing that like men do

40:34 need to hear is that we should be striving like that.

40:37 We should be living like that.

40:38 We should be giving it our all.

40:39 But I think the freedom is this is that even if I were to become the best

40:43 preacher in the world and even if you and True it,

40:46 which I do, I think you guys will accomplish it.

40:48 I think you guys will become the fastest father and son in in in the world.

40:52 So your at least your dreams are practical for you, right?

40:55 So being the best preacher in the world is probably not.

40:57 So uh but even if I even if I accomplish that, Cam,

41:02 what what I'm saying is I don't believe it's going

41:03 to satisfy what my what what my soul ultimately needs.

41:07 And it's like plugging in a bunch of different wires.

41:09 We have a bunch of wires at our house and there's like USB,

41:12 USBC, and all this stuff that is hard for me to keep track of.

41:15 So my wife puts all the cables in a drawer,

41:18 but it's like trying to just wire in and put in a bunch of stuff that's

41:21 Yes.

41:21 See if this works.

41:22 But at the end of the day,

41:23 I believe our souls were created to be wired back into our relationship

41:27 with God to have his approval to to have his approval.

41:31 Uh and I believe that's what men are longing for.

41:33 And so I think even the the working hard and the our own

41:38 attempts at righteousness and all that stuff is I think

41:40 us trying to do what only Christ can do and that's

41:44 get us back into the relationship that we need to be in.

41:46 Otherwise, I do think everything else in this world is going to leave us

41:50 dissatisfied.

41:50 I mean, look at the amount of men who have accomplished huge things.

41:53 Tom Brady, I don't know if you ever saw that interview,

41:55 but it was like after the fifth Super Bowl or something like that.

41:57 He was like, "Yeah, there's something inside of me that's still Yeah.

41:59 missing.

42:00 Missing." And I'm like

42:01 I'm like, "Hey, I know what that is." Like you were created by God

42:06 and you were created to be in a relationship

42:08 for him and nothing it's like the wires.

42:10 Nothing else is going to line up

42:12 until you're back into this relationship that you were created to be in.

42:16 And the only way back is Jesus says, "I'm the way, the truth,

42:19 and life is through faith in in Jesus Christ." And then I because of that, I

42:24 believe that men can enter into their careers

42:26 or their hobbies without being crippled by them.

42:28 But again, if your hobby or your career is going

42:30 to be the thing that defines you and you suck at it,

42:33 I would say I think I was a lot better fighter.

42:35 This is a humble brag.

42:38 I think I was a lot better fighter than the opportunities I would given.

42:41 I was just a lot less of a tool by the time I became a Christian.

42:44 I was still pretty toolish.

42:45 My wife can tell you that.

42:46 But just less I wish I would have applied for the try out for the Ultimate

42:49 Fighter before I was a Christian because I think they would have loved me then.

42:52 Uh, but but man, there's parts of me

42:56 that like there's part of my my fight career is

42:59 like maybe I don't talk about as much because

43:01 I never accomplished what I wanted to in that.

43:03 And I hate that.

43:05 Like I wanted to fight for the UFC.

43:07 When I was 10, I wanted to play Major League Baseball.

43:09 My papa was like, "Hey,

43:10 I don't see that working out for you at 10." He was like,

43:12 "What's your backup plan?" I'm like, "I'm 10."

43:14 Yeah.

43:14 Really?

43:15 Yeah.

43:15 That was that was an awesome conversation.

43:17 My dreams already.

43:18 Yeah.

43:18 10.

43:18 I had to re I had to course correct my entire life.

43:21 I could be president.

43:22 It could be an astronaut.

43:23 No, my pap's brutal.

43:24 He's like, I don't see that working out for you.

43:26 What's your backup plan?

43:27 So, but yeah, all all those things to say.

43:30 It's like, yeah, the things that I was embarrassed

43:34 by and and I I've shared this from the pull pit before,

43:37 but man, there's things about my story,

43:39 there's things about my family, there's things about all sorts of stuff.

43:42 Just being a dropout and and not even that, but being

43:45 at alternative schools and then and then not making it at alternative schools.

43:49 Yeah.

43:50 Yeah.

43:50 like all sorts of stuff.

43:51 Having a bad credit score when I married my wife,

43:54 like all that just so much stuff that I was embarrassed by.

43:56 But my attempt was I'm going to try everything I can on the outside to achieve

44:01 get success, fix whatever is wrong,

44:03 but I'm trying to do external stuff to fix

44:05 an in a problem that's broken on the inside

44:08 and a problem that I believe that only can be fixed by Christ uh in the gospel.

44:12 So, yeah.

44:12 Yeah.

44:12 And it's like it's that's what's that's what's hard or that's

44:17 what's great about your journey is you have all that negative.

44:21 You have all that weighing on you.

44:23 You have the all those flaws and the the brokenness.

44:27 And it's like sometimes I wonder is that necessary?

44:31 You said you want to be the best in the world.

44:33 Is that necessary?

44:34 You know what I mean?

44:35 Because I think it just adds everything.

44:37 It it adds so much because most people are broken in some some way.

44:44 Maybe not as bad at maybe not, you know,

44:46 getting the[ __] beat out of them by their dad,

44:48 but when you say that, then their brokenness is like,

44:51 "Okay, I'm okay then." Yeah.

44:53 You know, so if you don't have those stories,

44:57 it's going to be hard to get buy in.

44:59 That's that's where it's like, so Cam, I used to hate my story though, man.

45:04 I was embarrassed.

45:05 Of course.

45:05 I mean,

45:06 and there's still aspects of it like like there's my whole thought life,

45:10 like you you're saying, uh,

45:13 uh, you know, the the guy in the parking lot, like when someone flips me off,

45:17 there's still a part of me that just wants

45:18 to catch up to him and snap their finger.

45:20 There's still a part of me of like whatever drugs I didn't try,

45:23 my curiosity runs wild and I'm like,

45:26 I wonder what that one would have been like.

45:27 And if I'm missing out on something, so like, man,

45:29 there's still a lot of that stuff that's there that's alive and inside of me.

45:33 But but yeah, I I'm like there there's still that aspect of like the brokenness.

45:40 Though I'm perfect in God's eyes,

45:41 the reality is that I'm still imperfect on this side of eternity.

45:44 I'm going to remain that way and and until Christ returns.

45:48 But but yeah, I I think yeah, ju just to clarify, I hated my story.

45:53 I was embarrassed of it and and I ran from I

45:55 think the thing that allowed me to come out from hiding

45:58 was the freedom of knowing who I am as a child of God.

46:02 knowing that I'm no longer defined by my story.

46:04 In fact, man, I'm grateful for my story now,

46:05 which might sound crazy to you and it might sound crazy to other people,

46:08 but I'm glad there's a lot of brokenness.

46:11 Uh I I give my, you know, friends a hard time that had really loving dads.

46:15 I'm like, "Yeah, it must have been really tough having a dad

46:17 tell you that you're he was proud of you all the time,

46:19 you know." But, uh but I'm I'm grateful for those things

46:21 because I I think it helps me to relate

46:23 to people and and be able to empathize with people

46:25 that are like that are willing to be honest,

46:27 that are battling their addictions and battling whatever they're going through.

46:29 And and again, I think everyone is whether they're willing to admit it or not.

46:33 Yeah.

46:33 No, I I I totally get that.

46:36 And you know, I mean, my mom has apologized to me for my childhood.

46:39 And I said, I go, "Mom,

46:42 I'm glad I'm glad it was so shitty." Because that's who I am now.

46:47 This made me who I am.

46:48 I might be the biggest[ __] in the world with like the dad like,

46:51 "Champ, we're so proud of you.

46:52 You can do anything." And that's okay.

46:54 You don't go to practice.

46:55 Just let's watch TV.

46:57 that, you know, so I would much rather have

47:01 the broken family and the alcoholism and all that.

47:06 Yeah.

47:06 Any any day of the week.

47:07 So, yeah, that makes sense.

47:08 But also, what makes sense is, you know,

47:11 you're going back to Roseberg, your your hometown where you were screw up.

47:15 It's like when I go out to my hometown,

47:17 I still feel like I was the drunk crashing trucks, just smartass all the time.

47:24 wasn't beating people up,

47:25 but getting beat like punched in the eye and[ __] at parties.

47:29 So, it's embarrassing.

47:31 Yeah.

47:31 To go back to because now we're different people,

47:34 but hometowns never forget, dude.

47:38 You're you can't be a star in your hometown.

47:41 Yeah.

47:41 I mean, it's it's it's biblical as uh prophet's not welcome in his own

47:47 Yeah.

47:46 in in in his hometown.

47:47 I think that's part of the thing though, Cam, too,

47:49 is it's good for you to hear and I think it's good

47:51 for other men to hear is I think that terrifies them about, you know,

47:55 being sold out for Jesus or going all in is that man,

47:58 there's going to be these expectations that your whole life is going

48:01 to like turn around in in a night and if it's not

48:05 that everyone is just going to be disappointed in you and is

48:07 going to be frustrated with you and it's just that's not a reality, right?

48:10 It's a process.

48:11 It's a grind.

48:12 Sometimes it's uh two steps forward and five

48:14 steps backward and and that's I think

48:17 a picture of what it looks like

48:19 to wrestle with wi with within the Christian life.

48:21 So I think you need to hear that.

48:22 I think other men need to hear that is

48:24 that it it's almost like man if if I'm following

48:30 Christ are all these people going to think

48:32 that this is how overnight I'm going to sound this way,

48:36 be changed this way, and all that stuff.

48:37 And I'm telling you, I've been a Christian now for for almost 20 years, man.

48:41 I'm still wrestling and I'm wrestling with those things.

48:43 I like I want to get out of my car.

48:47 Out of my truck.

48:49 Your test your Yeah, your little What is that little car?

48:52 I want to get out of my Prius.

48:53 Yeah, your Prius.

48:55 I wonder

48:56 when when guys have their their their pants below their ass

49:00 like sagging them and crossing a crosswalk so slow.

49:03 It is like it's everything inside of me just wants to jump

49:06 out of the truck and just grab them by their pants,

49:08 lift them up and just get them going.

49:10 And so I'm just saying there there has

49:13 to be room and space within our church families

49:17 for people to be broken and wrestling in this whole

49:21 messy process because that's what it's going to be.

49:23 I think it's a lot messier than what people realize.

49:26 I think it's a lot messier than maybe than people want to admit.

49:29 I believe the gospel is going to save you and take you right where you are.

49:33 You don't have to clean yourself up and it's going to transform your life.

49:35 But that process is messy and often times slow.

49:39 And the beautiful thing is God's not going to be

49:40 more committed to a person 20 years from now

49:43 when they look more like Jesus than he was

49:45 in in in in the moment when he first saved them.

49:47 Like his his love is never going to change.

49:49 It's not going to grow.

49:49 It's not going to Yeah.

49:52 I explain God's love like this.

49:53 Like a fire.

49:55 On our days, we're crushing it.

49:56 It's not pouring gas on God's fire.

49:58 On the days when we're dropping the ball,

49:59 it's not pouring water and cooling it off.

50:02 It burns hot all the time.

50:05 And it's because of his decision, his choice, his faithfulness, his goodness,

50:08 and his grace, and because of what his son has done.

50:10 There's like we don't I mean,

50:12 so people need to know and hear that it's going to be bumpy.

50:17 It's going to be messy.

50:18 It's not going to be button up.

50:19 I think that's why you and some other

50:21 people are like are drawn to our church family.

50:24 Like, that dude's crazy.

50:25 He's squirly, but he's crazy about Jesus.

50:28 There's a bunch of broken, messy people here, and it's not buttoned up.

50:31 It's not pretty.

50:32 and and and uh I think that's I

50:34 think that's what it's going to practically look like.

50:36 And then I think we're afraid that my mess is going

50:39 to scare you away or it's going to scare other people away.

50:41 And I've been terrified of that, too.

50:44 Mhm.

50:43 Which is why I hid my story for so long.

50:46 And I've used this example before.

50:47 I was watching 8 Mile and at the end

50:49 of it they do the wrapoff and uh and they're like,

50:53 "Uh, Eminem goes first." I was like,

50:55 it was just like like an eye opening moment for me.

50:58 And I'm not saying go watch, you know,

50:59 this is not this past saying go watch eight miles.

51:01 just a great great story of good morals.

51:05 But I love this wrap-off.

51:06 But this is what I love.

51:08 He gets up there and says, "That's right.

51:09 I am white trash.

51:11 Uh my uh my best friend is Cheddar Bob who shot himself in the leg.

51:15 You know, I did grow up in a trailer park and all

51:17 this stuff." And but but then he says uh he says,

51:19 "Go ahead and tell these people something that that they

51:21 don't know about me." And he tosses the mic.

51:23 Ken, that was a that was like a light bulb moment for me where I was like,

51:25 I felt like the enemy for so long had used so much

51:29 of what I was embarrassed and ashamed of to just be like, man,

51:33 if you tell people that, if you tell people that, and even

51:35 in the pulpit when when when I share sin and brokenness,

51:38 I'm like, if you tell people that, you tell

51:40 people that, they're going to be right out the door.

51:41 They're never coming back.

51:42 But what I've realized, man, is that for the most part,

51:45 people aren't afraid of our messiness.

51:48 Yeah.

51:47 What they hate and what is a turnoff is when we pretend that it's not there,

51:51 like you're saying.

51:52 And then I think people can sniff that out and they're going,

51:55 "Nah, I'm not buying it, man.

51:57 Nice try." So, yeah.

51:59 Do you still Oh, boy.

52:01 I know cuz I just know me.

52:03 So, I can talk about my screwed up brain.

52:08 I still don't share all my everything.

52:12 You know what I mean?

52:13 I still kind of water it down a little bit.

52:15 Like I say I was a screw up, but I still don't.

52:19 It's still too much to I'm like, "No, you got Okay,

52:24 you'd give me a little grace on some." Yeah.

52:26 Oh, yeah.

52:26 You were young, but if you knew everything.

52:30 Yeah.

52:29 So, I still don't I've never even told any

52:32 I I'm I've never been honest my whole life.

52:34 Like 100% honest.

52:37 Well, you just were.

52:39 Well, not really.

52:40 I didn't say anything.

52:41 Well, you just said that you were that honestly you've never been honest.

52:44 I feel like that's a pretty honest statement.

52:45 So maybe that's the first time.

52:46 We should mark that down.

52:50 History.

52:49 Um it's it's hard because you still want to protect yourself, you know,

52:54 cuz you cuz what happens is like people say, "Oh, no, you're fine.

52:57 Here's a little rope." And you take a little rope and you're like,

53:00 "I can't hurt myself with this much rope." But if

53:02 you if somebody gives you all the rope like,

53:05 "Oh, I'm gonna hang myself now because

53:07 and so you still kind of like save a little

53:10 bit of the the worst details." I do anyway.

53:13 But that's a side note.

53:15 Um

53:15 I think it's good though.

53:17 But yeah.

53:17 So So let me ask this question.

53:19 Why?

53:20 I don't know.

53:21 I I think it's just because I I mean I feel like um I

53:27 felt like a a you know there's that whole stupid uh what is it?

53:32 Um God, what is it?

53:34 Uh what's that?

53:36 Not the fraud thing.

53:38 Um the fraud thing.

53:42 Yeah.

53:42 When you feel like a fraud, but you're uh

53:44 Oh, like an imposttor syndrome.

53:46 Yeah.

53:46 Yeah.

53:46 So, there there's that.

53:47 So, it's like the imposttor syndrome thing where I've always

53:51 felt like if people really knew like how my brain worked.

53:58 Yeah.

53:56 I would be they'd be like, "This guy's a mess." And so,

54:01 I think there's still like that protecting a little or worried too much

54:05 about like I'll give them a little just to where I'm I'm relatable.

54:09 But

54:10 so what you're saying is it's is it's real dark up there.

54:14 Yeah.

54:13 I'll tell you a little bit about the shades of it,

54:15 but I'm not going to let you see how dark it really is.

54:17 Yeah.

54:18 And and then what what what would be the fear

54:19 of the outcome that if you saw that you would be like,

54:21 my goodness, this guy is

54:24 incredibly screwed up.

54:25 Yeah.

54:25 And it's just like, you know,

54:27 cuz there's this whole thing where I get celebrated for like, oh, I've,

54:30 you know, chased these goals and I had this full-time

54:32 job and it and you know, it didn't matter.

54:34 I did.

54:35 But what I have to deal with is how hard I

54:38 was on the kids because I was trying to do too much.

54:40 I was too tired.

54:41 I was pissed off all the time.

54:43 I would, you know, take them to the movie, leave them in the movie,

54:46 go on a run because I had to get my miles

54:48 in, come back for like a few minutes of the movie.

54:51 It's just like, and I share that stuff,

54:54 but there's so many other things where I

54:56 was just like so selfish to just be like,

54:58 "No, I'm going to be the best in the world at what I do.

55:01 I don't give a about anyone else." That doesn't feel good.

55:06 Yeah.

55:06 Because that included my family.

55:09 Yeah.

55:08 Let alone it's me.

55:09 It's it's it's it was easy for me to say

55:11 I didn't care about a guy who is competition.

55:14 But how could I steal from my steal me from my family?

55:19 You know what I mean?

55:20 Yeah.

55:20 To chase.

55:22 So I haven't even there's a million different examples that I'm embarrassed.

55:28 Was that a hypothetical that you took your kids

55:30 to the movies and then left and went for a run?

55:32 Okay.

55:32 I' I've never heard you share that or talk about that.

55:35 So So you share that because why?

55:38 Because that's something where you feel embarrassed

55:40 about or you look at that and go,

55:41 "Man, that was selfish."

55:43 I can't even I the thing it feels selfish that I

55:46 couldn't even turn it off to enjoy a movie with my kids.

55:50 Yeah.

55:49 I still had to do my thing, get my miles in.

55:52 So put took them to Regal, ran around Alton Baker and did all that.

55:57 Got my miles in.

55:58 And it's just like Yeah.

56:01 So, I just feel guilty about um putting my own goals above, you know,

56:07 and and and it feels weird now

56:09 because I get celebrated because true is successful.

56:11 Tanner Taran does good.

56:13 Tanner's a beast, but I'm like, man, yeah,

56:17 it just doesn't feel like like I I did the best I could do.

56:25 Yep.

56:23 And and so I feel like I feel fake.

56:27 Yeah.

56:27 Yeah.

56:28 Uh, man, I'm I'm I'm piecing all this together as you talk.

56:33 But, uh, so you feel fake because you're praised

56:39 for all that you do and you're celebrated for that.

56:42 And then even your kids have some pretty incredible success because of that.

56:45 But at the end of the day, you're recognizing, man,

56:47 a lot of what I did was from my own selfish ambition.

56:51 Yeah.

56:50 Is that accurate?

56:52 Yeah.

56:53 Okay.

56:52 Yeah.

56:52 And I would just say, I'm providing for my family.

56:55 I'm showing my kids what hard work mean does

56:59 and can result in and that they can do whatever.

57:02 So I was like I would twist it to to be like,

57:05 "Oh, this is what I should be doing."

57:07 Yep.

57:07 Yeah.

57:08 But it was just me justifying it.

57:10 Yeah.

57:10 Yeah.

57:11 Well, do you recognize that or see it is a good thing that you even can say,

57:17 "Man, I I I don't feel like that was right." Like,

57:20 do you think that's a good thing for you to be able to recognize,

57:22 hey, I think that was selfish and and I don't feel good about that?

57:25 Because I I would say uh I think it's a copout when men say,

57:28 "My job is to provide and that put that means putting

57:31 food on the table." I would say that's part of it.

57:33 Uh and that's part of what it is to be a father.

57:35 But but it's also being present, too.

57:37 And so like are you saying I mean I think it's a good

57:40 thing to say and recognize man h how can you admit on this podcast

57:46 with I don't know how many men watching how are you able

57:48 to admit that knowing a bunch of people are listening to this knowing

57:53 that that is embarrassing because I'm like man I yeah so I

57:59 think that's a genuine question like how how are you able to do

58:02 that because again or is what you're saying is look I I can

58:07 say that, but there's layers of it that are much deeper than that.

58:09 And I won't take you there.

58:12 I think it's um Yeah,

58:14 I have no problem admitting that because I get judged all the time.

58:19 I mean, I get so much hate.

58:20 So, it's just like I'm going to get a little more hate.

58:22 I don't even care.

58:23 But the what I struggle with is knowing that talking about it, being honest,

58:31 I don't know if I would do anything different.

58:33 Yeah.

58:34 I'm still that same

58:37 psycho.

58:37 Yeah.

58:38 And like I can say, "Yeah, that wasn't great." But if I was back in there,

58:41 I can't tell you I'd do it any different.

58:43 I'd be like, "No, I'm I still don't care about anything." That's where I'm like,

58:48 "I'm just not even I shouldn't even go

58:49 to church is what it feels like." Cuz it's like

58:52 that's what I just don't know how I still am.

58:56 And anyway, yeah.

58:57 So, so you're communicating that at at the core there's

59:02 still so much of the selfishness and so to it

59:05 it would feel like I'm dis that I'm not genuine

59:08 and that some people aren't genuine to be like, "Oh, yeah.

59:10 Yeah, I have have this whole life, but but you're saying if I could run it back,

59:14 there's a good chance that I would do it all over again and and do it the same."

59:18 Yeah.

59:18 And that doesn't feel right.

59:20 Yeah.

59:20 Yeah.

59:22 Uh do you think you would?

59:24 I'm like, like, do you really think you're like, "All right,

59:27 I I get to hit rewind, restart, run it back.

59:31 Would I actually do that or would I sit there

59:33 at the movie theaters?" I at this point, I'm just curious.

59:36 Uh, what would I sit there and watch what whatever the movie is with my kids?

59:42 Is it hard to say?

59:43 I just don't think I would.

59:45 Yeah.

59:45 I just don't I I because I've just like

59:47 it's been 58 years now of just competition every day.

59:54 Every day I have to win.

59:57 Yeah.

59:57 And whether it's a screwed up thing in my head

59:59 or if it's an actual race or if it's whatever,

1:00:02 I just can't turn it off.

1:00:05 Yeah.

1:00:04 And then I'm not happy.

1:00:06 What happens if you get hit by a car?

1:00:08 I'm being serious.

1:00:09 I'm going to be so relieved.

1:00:12 Just swear to God, dude.

1:00:14 Swear to God,

1:00:16 I would love to get killed, hit by a car, cuz I'd be like, "Finally, relief.

1:00:21 Finally, I can." You know, there's a quote in one of these books where it says,

1:00:25 "There's no rest for me in this life.

1:00:27 Perhaps in the next." Yeah.

1:00:29 So, I just can't.

1:00:30 So, it's like to me getting hit that'd be sick.

1:00:34 Yeah.

1:00:34 Yeah.

1:00:34 Okay.

1:00:35 Well, you I mean, you kind of took a lot of my took

1:00:38 a lot of my ammunition away right there because I'm like,

1:00:41 what happens if Cam gets hit by a car and he's

1:00:44 in a wheelchair and he can no longer run at the pace he's running?

1:00:47 Then then then who is that Cam sitting there in the wheelchair?

1:00:51 And yeah, I think that's a genuine question.

1:00:54 Like like who who is that Cam Haynes that's sitting there

1:00:58 that can't do anything?

1:00:59 Cuz I' i've told people before, I'm like,

1:01:00 man, our our gospel is like a quadripollegic gospel.

1:01:04 Mhm.

1:01:04 So much so that what I'm saying is that if if you are a quadriplegic,

1:01:10 you can't do anything.

1:01:12 Like look at the criminal on the cross.

1:01:14 Like like you can't do anything to save yourself to prove yourself to to to show

1:01:17 like like you might want to do something like you can't even pick up your Bible.

1:01:21 Like someone have to hold it in front of you.

1:01:22 And so uh man, that's how amazing and scandalous the gospel is is

1:01:27 that that the quadripolgic is never going to go on a mission trip.

1:01:32 they're never going to be able to lift

1:01:32 their Bible to, you know, and so and uh yeah,

1:01:36 and and and in a very real way, the criminal on the cross is a picture of that.

1:01:40 It's like, man, the guy couldn't do anything.

1:01:41 He's like the most vile criminal other than look to Jesus and trust him.

1:01:44 So, I I think it's a genuine question.

1:01:46 Who is Cam Haynes if he's sitting in a wheelchair and can't run anymore?

1:01:49 You say, uh, thrilled, happy, and stuff like that.

1:01:53 But I don't believe that.

1:01:54 I think you're sitting there in in the wheelchair.

1:01:57 Well, one, I think you're going to drive Tracy insane.

1:02:01 I'm going to be dead.

1:02:03 Like I Yeah, that's not a hypothetical.

1:02:06 You can't just build off of it.

1:02:07 Freaking let's get that get that car going a little quicker or something.

1:02:10 Let's end this[ __] Um, so anyway, this isn't about me, but hey,

1:02:14 I was going to ask you what's the what's the hard So

1:02:17 you say I want to be the the greatest pastor in the world.

1:02:21 What What does that look like?

1:02:22 And what like what's the hardest part of that happening?

1:02:27 Yeah, man.

1:02:28 What does that look like?

1:02:29 Yeah.

1:02:29 Uh you'll you'll hear our shepherds our pastors commonly

1:02:34 say that our shepherds are going to smell like sheep.

1:02:36 So in other words, I believe that a good pastor smells like sheep.

1:02:40 He's not sitting in an ivory tower somewhere.

1:02:42 But uh

1:02:43 we're pastors that are when people in the hospital,

1:02:45 we're going to be in the hospital praying with them.

1:02:47 Uh and so

1:02:50 I think the reality is Cam is that being a good pastor is incredibly not flashy.

1:02:55 It's because no one ever talks, as they say,

1:02:58 about the planes that touch ground or the trains that make it to the station.

1:03:02 They only talk about the derailments and the crashes, right?

1:03:04 And so, I think there's a lot of faithful good pastors out there.

1:03:08 But I don't think it's flashy.

1:03:09 I think it's pretty boring

1:03:12 in that sense.

1:03:12 And I think that's a good thing.

1:03:14 Uh because again, as you well, not saying you do know, but it wrecks it.

1:03:21 I think you've been in a church before where there's

1:03:22 been a pastor that goes off and has an affair.

1:03:24 I mean, that has a huge impact on on a church and church family.

1:03:27 And so, I would say what what it looks like is

1:03:29 Paul lays it out is fight the good fight of faith.

1:03:31 I would say keep placing my trust and faith in Jesus

1:03:34 every moment of every day.

1:03:35 I'm ultimately not defined also by being a pastor first and foremost.

1:03:39 I'm a son of God who gets to pastor a church.

1:03:41 I'm not defined by being a preacher.

1:03:44 I mean,

1:03:45 people give me feedback on sermon all the time.

1:03:47 Uh, you know, whether I want it or not.

1:03:51 Yeah.

1:03:51 But but if that ultimately defined me, then it would crush me if they're like,

1:03:54 "Yeah, you're you're you're not my style."

1:03:56 But but it ultimately doesn't define me.

1:03:58 And so I think a big part of that is uh is being being faithful to do

1:04:03 the really small things and do those well and to fight the good fight of faith.

1:04:08 Keep being faithful.

1:04:09 Uh don't I would say guard my life.

1:04:14 Uh guard the church's doctrine.

1:04:15 So don't chase a bunch of just weird doctrines.

1:04:19 And and as as you probably do know that there's been a there's a lot of weird

1:04:23 beliefs and belief systems that people are running after

1:04:25 and chasing and going down every rabbit hole there.

1:04:28 And so I'd say that that's a big portion is protect the message of the gospel.

1:04:31 Keep preaching it.

1:04:32 Keep teaching it.

1:04:33 Keep it central, but keep planting churches.

1:04:35 I mean, that's what this this might not make sense to most people out there.

1:04:39 I've I've been asked by people from Eugene, they're like,

1:04:42 "Why would you ever want to move to Roseber?" Like like uh

1:04:45 that's it's an awful place.

1:04:46 And I said, "You realize that people in Roseburg are saying,

1:04:48 "Why would you ever want to be in Eugene?" Yeah,

1:04:50 that's an off place, but I have a heart for rural Oregon.

1:04:53 I want to see you, you know these towns from being out in the woods,

1:04:57 but I want to see churches in Drain, Oregon, in Elkton, Oregon.

1:05:00 Yeah.

1:05:00 I want to see churches in Myrtle Creek.

1:05:02 I want to see churches in Rice Hill and all

1:05:04 these little small podunk towns that don't mean anything to anyone else.

1:05:07 They mean something to me.

1:05:08 So, every time I'm driving through these towns, uh,

1:05:11 I'm praying for churches to be planted and healthy churches that preach

1:05:13 and teach the gospel with real men that aren't afraid to be transparent,

1:05:20 authentic, and real.

1:05:21 They aren't afraid of their brokenness,

1:05:22 that are preaching and teaching God's word faithfully,

1:05:24 and preaching and teaching the gospel.

1:05:26 Like, I want to see Southwest Oregon

1:05:28 just saturated with with with healthy churches.

1:05:30 And so, I think that's part of it.

1:05:32 And I believe I before we moved here, I had that vision.

1:05:34 I drew it out.

1:05:35 I It's not like like some weird type of vision.

1:05:37 And it was just like I I told my wife I was like I want to see healthy churches

1:05:41 in all these towns and I want to see them

1:05:43 saturated and I want to see the gospel transform men's life.

1:05:47 I want to see husbands get saved and I want to see families turned upside down

1:05:52 and I want to see man I would have loved to have seen that from my dad.

1:05:56 Uh I would have loved that.

1:05:57 But but but I want to see that.

1:05:58 I want to see because I believe

1:05:59 the gospel has such saving transforming power that because

1:06:02 of that then towns become transformed

1:06:05 and and and and communities grow in light of that.

1:06:07 So I want to see that happen in southwest Oregon which

1:06:09 again that sounds crazy to a lot of people because they're like who cares

1:06:14 about those towns.

1:06:15 I I get that.

1:06:16 So it's like that just that leads me to this question.

1:06:19 Um you say to be the best pastor in the world.

1:06:22 So some there's some pastors or leaders of churches that would say, "Oh,

1:06:26 that means a big facility on TV TV evangelist type thing reaching millions."

1:06:34 Mhm.

1:06:34 Right.

1:06:34 Because that that seems like success, right?

1:06:38 Um but to then on So is that the goal or But to me,

1:06:43 what I hear is you like the small town environment.

1:06:46 Is that is why is that?

1:06:48 Is that because you feel safer there?

1:06:51 because that's you or you felt ignored

1:06:56 as a young man and needed something like that.

1:06:59 Man, you have flipped the table in this therapy session.

1:07:02 I like it.

1:07:02 All right, keep going.

1:07:03 Keep going.

1:07:04 Um because I do, you know,

1:07:06 in some some respects like I and I told you I

1:07:09 think Eugene needs you just as much as Roseberg, maybe more.

1:07:13 probably, you know, we got a lot of[ __] weird people here in Eugene

1:07:16 that could use a masculine type uh child of God up there preaching every Sunday.

1:07:23 But I'm not saying that the small towns don't need that cuz they do.

1:07:27 Yeah.

1:07:28 And because one thing that I've noticed like

1:07:30 with Jelly Roll and hanging around and going to some

1:07:32 of these shows and like hearing seeing his response

1:07:37 to people kind of like what you're talking about with Roseberg.

1:07:40 It's like you know you said white trash or whatever.

1:07:43 Maybe I have.

1:07:43 I don't I mean but that's me essentially.

1:07:46 And it's like those are the forgotten people.

1:07:50 The the poor white people never get talked about.

1:07:52 you know, it's always like the urban stuff or the let's,

1:07:56 you know, people coming from other countries for asylum, something like that.

1:08:00 The poor white people,

1:08:02 good luck.

1:08:04 Yeah.

1:08:04 You know, and so Yeah.

1:08:05 Is is there a more hated uh group of people

1:08:08 than than a bluecollar white male in today's society?

1:08:11 Yeah.

1:08:11 I mean, it's just like so I get to me that's that makes

1:08:16 what you want to do even more powerful and that's cool and I like

1:08:19 it even though I don't like you leaving here but it's so so tell

1:08:23 me how does how do you get to become the best in the world?

1:08:26 So it's not congregation size.

1:08:28 It's not reaching millions.

1:08:31 What is it?

1:08:32 Yeah, it's a good question.

1:08:34 So I'll be honest here.

1:08:36 It's to to say so you know this.

1:08:39 Our church's mission statement is to make Jesus the hero.

1:08:42 About six months in sometimes people think there's a lot

1:08:46 of thought and creativity put into like the name of the church

1:08:49 and stuff like that, but I was filling out the form

1:08:50 from the secretary of state and my buddy was next to me, Brandon.

1:08:53 And uh it it it it's making you put in the name of your nonprofit.

1:08:58 I was like, I we don't have a name.

1:08:59 And he's like, I don't what do you what do you what do you care about?

1:09:01 And I was like, the gospel.

1:09:02 He's like, what else?

1:09:03 Community.

1:09:03 He's like, all right, let's just say it gospel community church.

1:09:05 And he's like, we'll come up with something cooler later.

1:09:08 So, but that's still that's still the name.

1:09:10 6 months into the church, someone's like, "Hey,

1:09:12 it seems like whenever you preach or we have a Bible study,

1:09:15 it seems like the main goal is to make Jesus

1:09:16 the hero of it." And I was like, "There you go."

1:09:18 The the problem is, Cam,

1:09:20 and I think this is what you're saying that you can relate to, is that I

1:09:22 still want to be the hero and I want the glory and I want the fame.

1:09:25 So, even our mission statement, man, is something that I battle with because

1:09:27 and and coming on this podcast, whatever it is,

1:09:31 there's a huge part of me that I want to try to take the attention

1:09:34 and I want to try to be the hero and I and I want the glory.

1:09:36 So that's something I wrestle with in so there's

1:09:39 there's a part of me that wants that what you're

1:09:41 describing like I would want to you know I

1:09:43 want the success I want the the fame I want

1:09:47 like you showed me that guy yesterday Joby is that his name

1:09:51 yeah and like he must reach a lot of people

1:09:53 yeah I think his church is like 20,000 people or something like that

1:09:56 and I said you have that same cuz you are good right and it's like I know we got

1:10:01 to make Jesus well and Marcus came up with this because

1:10:04 it's like you're so good at preaching we were like,

1:10:06 "Yeah, it's not about you.

1:10:07 It's blah blah blah.

1:10:08 You have these guest pastors out there, whatever,

1:10:10 preachers, whatever it is." And and Marcus said,

1:10:13 "Instead of just make Jesus a hero,

1:10:15 make Rick make Jesus a hero." That should So I get that.

1:10:21 The problem is you're really good.

1:10:23 And so, thanks, man.

1:10:25 Hearing that over and over,

1:10:28 I don't care what who you are, that's going to impact us as men.

1:10:31 Yeah.

1:10:31 It's going to affect our ego.

1:10:33 Right.

1:10:33 So, I get that.

1:10:34 So, but the fact that you're conscious of it is is a good step.

1:10:38 But, um, yeah, it's just like it's just weird because we

1:10:41 saw the guy yesterday with all the people and he's look like

1:10:43 a badass and he's just on fire up there for the gospel

1:10:46 and I can see you doing that too cuz you are so good.

1:10:49 But, yeah, I was just curious about

1:10:51 I got to bulk up a little bit more though about Yeah, that guy's jacked.

1:10:54 I might need to uh I might need a double a dose.

1:10:56 So, yeah, I know.

1:10:57 Yeah.

1:10:57 Yeah.

1:10:57 Yeah.

1:10:58 Going both cheeks.

1:10:59 Might make a trip back to Tijana.

1:11:02 But, yeah.

1:11:02 Yeah.

1:11:03 So I was just curious about what how success is defined for you to be the best.

1:11:08 Yeah.

1:11:08 That that's that's a living reality something I I I

1:11:11 live with and that that I ask people to pray for.

1:11:14 I'm like pray for me in this because that those are things where man

1:11:16 I feel disingenuine at times because I'm

1:11:18 like this is the church's mission statement

1:11:20 and I'm up there at at the same time like man I I'm wanting that.

1:11:24 Uh but but I also there's a greater desire

1:11:26 in me too or or or there's this other desire.

1:11:29 John the Baptist said that his mission was to decrease.

1:11:32 so that Christ would increase.

1:11:33 In other words, he was okay being in the shadows

1:11:35 so that Christ would be in the spotlight.

1:11:37 That's in me too.

1:11:38 And so both of those things uh as the Apostle Paul says

1:11:40 like both of these things are like waging war inside of him,

1:11:43 you know, and and uh

1:11:45 yeah, so that's a reality.

1:11:47 Uh but ultimately, I trust that the spirit is going to continue to refine

1:11:52 and sanctify those desires so that my desires

1:11:55 ultimately for Christ to be in the spotlight.

1:11:56 But that's that's a living reality.

1:11:58 But what does that look like practically?

1:12:00 It it it's I don't want to build an empire.

1:12:05 I want to I think what success looks like for me

1:12:08 and I think we should define success whenever we're planting churches.

1:12:11 I think it's a healthy thing to do

1:12:14 is I think what success looks like is

1:12:18 is your church actually living out its core values?

1:12:20 And so our one of our core values is transparency.

1:12:23 Do people feel safe within the w within your church

1:12:26 to actually confess their sins and and and bring forth their brokenness?

1:12:30 And I would say, man, that's a sign of success.

1:12:33 If someone knows they're hidden in Christ

1:12:35 and they don't have to protect their image anymore,

1:12:37 but that Christ has come in and restored them, then man,

1:12:43 there's a lot of freedom to say, man, I'm hidden in Christ.

1:12:46 I don't have to hide anymore.

1:12:48 And so, there's freedom to be transparent.

1:12:50 So, I would say su success looks like that.

1:12:52 It it looks like we're planting churches

1:12:54 that keep planting churches that keep multiplying churches.

1:12:57 And that's why we're a part of an a church planting

1:13:00 network called Acts 29 that exists that plant churches like that.

1:13:02 But I think success looks like looking and saying, man,

1:13:06 we got more and more pastors that are now pastoring churches

1:13:10 in in these town in this town and this town and this town.

1:13:13 And there's more and more men.

1:13:15 Cam, I would say cuz I would say our our culture is pretty gritty.

1:13:20 Mhm.

1:13:19 And I'm thankful for that.

1:13:20 I would say bunch of crazies that are crazy about Jesus and and and uh

1:13:25 and I was once told that uh that I take the gospel serious but not myself.

1:13:29 And I was I thought that was a great compliment.

1:13:33 Mhm.

1:13:32 And so that that'd be my hope is that in these small small ruled, gritty,

1:13:38 lumber towns that there's places where those rough necked,

1:13:42 rough around the edges guys go, "Yeah, I I want to get I want to get plugged in.

1:13:49 Yeah.

1:13:48 I want to hear about Jesus." And what will

1:13:51 Primos their company the tagline was uh speak the language.

1:13:55 Yeah.

1:13:54 I feel like I speak the language.

1:13:56 I feel like I speak the language of small town.

1:13:58 It's a lot of Christless conservativism.

1:14:00 In other words, they have all the conservative values without Jesus in them.

1:14:03 Right.

1:14:04 So I feel like I understand that culture.

1:14:05 I speak that language.

1:14:06 It's a lot of good old boyism and and legalism of like,

1:14:09 hey man, look, I'm working hard.

1:14:11 I'm I'm putting in the work.

1:14:12 I'm I'm trying my best and and therefore that proves me to be a good person.

1:14:15 You know, like that that's the common message.

1:14:17 And so man, I know how to speak to that.

1:14:19 And so my heart is for those guys that are just rough and tough

1:14:24 and gritty and think there's no way I'm ever stepping foot inside of a church.

1:14:29 My heart is for those guys.

1:14:31 Yeah.

1:14:31 I it makes me think of Powers,

1:14:34 Oregon where I go and elk hunt out kind of over towards Kuz Bay.

1:14:37 Just a tiny little Yeah.

1:14:39 And like I could imagine I just think about a church there for all those guys.

1:14:42 Scale work in the woods, you know, they're tough, you know,

1:14:45 driving truck or setting chokers or timber followers or in a mill somewhere.

1:14:50 Those guys.

1:14:52 Totally.

1:14:51 I like those cuz that was who I was going to be.

1:14:54 You know what I mean?

1:14:57 Absolutely.

1:14:56 And uh so yeah, I totally get that.

1:14:58 It's um when you're headed there, you drive through Cameas Valley

1:15:01 and even like those little towns like Cameas Valley,

1:15:03 I'm like, man, like like Yeah.

1:15:05 Yeah.

1:15:05 So, did you know that there's a there's a Johnny Cash song about Roseberg?

1:15:09 Oh, no.

1:15:09 It's called Lumberjack.

1:15:10 Oh, really?

1:15:11 Yeah.

1:15:11 It actually mentions Ro It's talking about Roseberg,

1:15:13 but actually mentions Eugene in the song, too.

1:15:15 So, yeah.

1:15:16 Okay.

1:15:16 Yeah.

1:15:16 Yeah.

1:15:16 But he he's talking about just the the burly just

1:15:21 Yeah.

1:15:21 Just rough around the edges type guys.

1:15:23 And I'm like, man, who's reaching who's reaching those guys?

1:15:28 Yeah.

1:15:28 because it goes back to uh to your best

1:15:31 friend and and and his ministry with, you know,

1:15:34 reaching bow hunters and stuff like that.

1:15:35 It's like who's reaching those guys, right?

1:15:37 Because again, the those guys are rough and tumble and they're lumberjacks and

1:15:43 you're not going to not going to listen to anybody.

1:15:47 No,

1:15:46 if you wear skinny jeans and you got I was literally getting ready to say that.

1:15:49 I was like, "Yeah, your your your vegan diet and skinny jeans,

1:15:52 it's it's going to be real tough, man.

1:15:54 You got you got a lot working against you." And so,

1:15:56 yeah, my heart is for those guys to say, "Man, I get it.

1:16:00 I get you." Like, you know, so yeah, and and this is a place where you can come

1:16:05 in and uh and you're going to meet other other men like you.

1:16:08 So, yeah.

1:16:09 Who's the who's the best preacher you've ever been around?

1:16:13 Best preacher I've ever been around.

1:16:15 And why are they the best?

1:16:16 That's a good question.

1:16:18 My favorite preacher by simply reading his sermons of all times

1:16:23 is a man named Charles Spurgeon who's called the Prince of Preachers.

1:16:27 Uh but but let's go more modern day.

1:16:30 I would say guys that I enjoy listening to are guys that I try not to listen to.

1:16:36 That's the problem because I don't want to mimic them.

1:16:39 Yeah.

1:16:39 So, man, I I think Matt Chandler is one of the best

1:16:41 Bible preachers right now and he's uh he's in our network.

1:16:45 I think Joby Martin, the the gentleman I was showing you is another one.

1:16:50 My favorite preacher is Tim Keller.

1:16:53 And uh yeah, in fact,

1:16:56 he could explain the justification sanctification thing much better than I do.

1:16:59 He has a YouTube video called death dead

1:17:01 or orthodoxy and I'd recommend everyone to listen to it.

1:17:03 It's phenomenal.

1:17:04 I enjoyed listening to him because he's not charismatic and I'm drawn to that.

1:17:11 He is he's very heady.

1:17:13 is very intellectual, but man, he knows how to get to Jesus in every passage,

1:17:18 in every verse of the Bible.

1:17:21 He's just Yeah.

1:17:22 So, I mean, he preaches the gospel clearly and faithfully and knows how to Yeah.

1:17:28 knows how to preach Christ from from every book and page of the Bible.

1:17:33 So, yeah.

1:17:34 And that's huge.

1:17:36 Yeah.

1:17:36 Because you can moralize the entire Bible,

1:17:38 which I think I think Tracy said that's what she understood.

1:17:40 Mhm.

1:17:41 So many of the Bible stories get moralized into where we

1:17:44 become the hero when in all reality they're actually pointing to Christ,

1:17:47 the true and ultimate hero and stuff.

1:17:49 So yeah, so he's a guy I think who was phenomenal at that.

1:17:52 But yeah, I I try not to listen to a lot because I I don't want Also,

1:17:56 a lot of pastors are getting fired for plagiarism.

1:17:59 Oh yeah, I could I could see like using chat GPT for sermons.

1:18:04 I had a guy tell me he's like, "Yeah, I think that's fine." And I was like,

1:18:06 other than the Bible says that those who

1:18:09 labor in preaching and teaching, you know, so yeah, it goes against it for sure.

1:18:14 Yeah.

1:18:14 Um I was curious.

1:18:16 I we talked about this a little earlier,

1:18:17 but what's the best criticism you've ever received?

1:18:20 So people love giving advice.

1:18:24 Yeah.

1:18:23 And I I get advice all the time.

1:18:25 I'm like, did I ask I don't remember asking you.

1:18:28 I don't actually care what you think.

1:18:30 So, but sometimes you get some good good criticism and you're like,

1:18:35 maybe I can reflect and get better from that.

1:18:38 So, have you got good criticism before?

1:18:40 I have, man.

1:18:42 And uh plenty of it.

1:18:43 So, so let me roll out some of it for you.

1:18:47 Yeah.

1:18:49 Uh I mean, I have a great and close

1:18:52 and honest relationship with with one of my best friends

1:18:54 in the world who we're planning at uh planning the church

1:18:57 down there in Roseber at at uh at his gym.

1:19:00 Gym.

1:19:00 Yeah.

1:19:00 Yeah.

1:19:00 Cross at Roseber.

1:19:01 And so, uh, he has lined out for me.

1:19:06 Uh, I mean, I remember we were sitting in a Chinese restaurant, but but I mean,

1:19:10 he lined out for me where where he sees so many of my character flaws.

1:19:16 Mhm.

1:19:16 At the same time, I was like, man, that stings.

1:19:19 Uh, why why was he doing this?

1:19:22 Uh, but I don't know exactly.

1:19:26 I don't remember why he was doing it.

1:19:27 I think he was frustrated or pissed about

1:19:29 something and and and and it was probably warranted.

1:19:34 Uh but I also realized that it's those type of people that are willing to

1:19:39 to say difficult things to me, which I know that sounds crazy cuz I've

1:19:42 heard I've had people say something to me,

1:19:43 my my other buddy Adam, I'll share that one in a second.

1:19:45 But but with Dave saying all that stuff to me, I was like, man,

1:19:49 that guy loves me enough to be that uncomfortable to say

1:19:52 difficult things to me knowing that it could risk the friendship.

1:19:54 Mhm.

1:19:55 And so I think sometimes people don't say stuff because

1:19:58 they love themselves and love you loving them more than they actually

1:20:02 love you to tell you something that would be really hard and difficult.

1:20:04 Does that make sense?

1:20:05 So I've had a guy my another buddy Adam to where I could hear his voice shaking

1:20:09 and he's like, "Hey man,

1:20:10 I feel like you're horrible at texting me back and calling me.

1:20:13 I've called you multiple times.

1:20:14 I'm putting a lot more effort into this friendship and stuff

1:20:16 like that." And I would say his statements were true.

1:20:18 My wife would tell you, I mean she told me yesterday or the day before.

1:20:21 She's like, "Hey, look at your text messages." And she's like,

1:20:23 "Have you responded any?" And she's like, "It's like, look at all those there.

1:20:26 No response." And so I'm like, "Yeah, not great at that."

1:20:30 But I remember listening to Adam tell me all that stuff.

1:20:32 And I was like, "Hey man, like I can hear your voice like shaking.

1:20:37 That tells me that you love and care a lot about me and our friendship

1:20:40 that you're willing to share something that hard with me that I can see, man,

1:20:43 you're clearly not chasing your own comfort because you

1:20:46 are not comfortable in sharing that with me right now,

1:20:48 you know." And so those are the types

1:20:51 of things I uh am often criticized on my communication.

1:20:54 I am uh bad at communicating.

1:20:57 A lot of stuff stays in my head that doesn't actually come out.

1:20:59 And so and and then I will have expectations of

1:21:03 I think people should My dad used to say

1:21:05 you should have known.

1:21:06 Yeah.

1:21:06 Even though you didn't say it.

1:21:07 Yeah.

1:21:07 Like my dad used to say I can't look up your butt and read your mind.

1:21:10 Yeah.

1:21:10 And I think I want people to do that.

1:21:12 Uh so I'm criticized on that.

1:21:15 uh preaching.

1:21:16 I mean, I've been criticized for I

1:21:21 think if you're faithfully preaching the gospel, Cam,

1:21:23 I think people are going to uh accuse you of what's called being an anti-nomian,

1:21:27 saying that you're against God's law.

1:21:29 I believe God's law is good.

1:21:31 I believe it's holy.

1:21:31 I believe it was a gift.

1:21:33 It's just it's it's not able to save us.

1:21:37 Only God's saving grace can do that in the gospel.

1:21:41 And and and so but but one of the things that whenever you're preaching

1:21:46 that message and you're preaching grace that you're

1:21:48 going to be charged with is that oh this means you're an anti-nomian that you

1:21:51 hate God's law that you don't believe people

1:21:53 should you know live a moral life

1:21:55 or follow God's commandments or anything like that.

1:21:57 I'm like that's that's not consistent accurate to

1:22:01 to what I believe.

1:22:02 But I believe we should preach grace heavy and hard.

1:22:04 I also believe we should preach because of that grow

1:22:07 up hard too and and and live consistent to it.

1:22:09 Uh yeah, I think those are examples.

1:22:12 Um so yeah, I I I I hope this

1:22:17 I hope that if someone's willing to sit down with me and tell

1:22:19 me how sucky I am and they're willing to give me the bad news,

1:22:21 I hope that they're willing to give me the good news, too.

1:22:24 And which is something that I believe

1:22:26 our church family and Christian community should do.

1:22:28 If if I come to you and I'm like, "Hey, Cam,

1:22:30 I think what you just did was screwed up and selfish and awful." Uh,

1:22:37 and if if I came to you or if I if if I

1:22:41 went to a brother in Christ and said something like that, dude, that was

1:22:45 come on, man.

1:22:46 That was so selfish.

1:22:47 I would also want to remind him, hey,

1:22:50 that's why Jesus went to the cross to pay for your selfishness.

1:22:52 And now because of that and because of your faith in Jesus,

1:22:55 God doesn't see a selfish man.

1:22:57 He actually looks at you and sees a perfectly

1:22:58 selfless man because Christ was every moment of every day.

1:23:01 Christ was selfless.

1:23:02 And that life now actually belongs to you in Christ.

1:23:05 And so I'd want to make sure that if I'm going to give someone bad news,

1:23:08 I'm also going to give them the good news if they're my brother in Christ.

1:23:11 Yeah.

1:23:12 Yeah.

1:23:12 I know.

1:23:12 I get that.

1:23:13 Um Yeah.

1:23:16 And I think it's like it's different too when

1:23:18 somebody's talking like we get mad and we yell

1:23:21 or you you get drunk and you say crazy[

1:23:24 __] There's always a little bit of truth in it.

1:23:26 But when somebody's calm and just saying, "Hey,

1:23:28 can I talk to you about something?" Way different.

1:23:31 Oh yeah.

1:23:31 You know, so if you have a buddy or like this criticism we're talking about,

1:23:35 if it's said in anger,

1:23:36 it's easy just to blow that off and be like, "Ah,

1:23:39 they're just pissed." Even the the person saying it says, "Oh, sorry about that.

1:23:42 I went overboard." But when you can sit down just as and just say,

1:23:46 "Hey, can we talk?" That's that's where it means something.

1:23:50 But I was thinking too like for you specifically

1:23:54 when you're saying all that I was like if like

1:23:57 for and I don't know when the discipline part

1:24:00 or when that but like for you cuz you are

1:24:02 kind of like a bigger intimidating guy I think

1:24:05 it's better for not for you to not do discipline

1:24:08 type stuff not do the correction stuff because you already

1:24:12 you know then it's like double or whatever it's like

1:24:16 intimidation plus criticism.

1:24:20 Yeah.

1:24:20 You know what I mean?

1:24:21 So, it's almost like in we talk about these

1:24:23 I have to be mindful that and my wife has told me that too.

1:24:26 She's like your voice Mhm.

1:24:28 Uh your voice can intimidate people.

1:24:31 Uh and uh I mean I get worked up.

1:24:36 I get passionate.

1:24:37 There's there's many people we we've uh played this game within

1:24:41 our church family of like trying to uh assign one word to people.

1:24:44 And so the word that's been used for me often times is passion,

1:24:46 you know, or or passionate.

1:24:48 And so you have to be mindful that there's even times in grocery store

1:24:51 where like I'll go up behind someone like hey you know how's it going?

1:24:54 So so yeah I think yeah I have to be mindful that keep going.

1:24:57 It's all good.

1:24:57 Um I was curious too.

1:24:59 So what's uh this I have these random thoughts just oh man just crazy.

1:25:04 But what is your favorite scripture right now?

1:25:08 Yeah.

1:25:09 My favorite scripture right now, I would say, man, I love Colossians 3:3.

1:25:19 Uh, that our life is is hidden in Christ

1:25:22 with God has been just massive, not just now, but just for the last 20 years,

1:25:27 growing more and more of what understanding what it is to be hidden in Christ.

1:25:32 But yeah, I'm draw also drawn to parables.

1:25:34 Like I love Matthew 20.

1:25:36 that that parable pisses so many people off.

1:25:38 What is it?

1:25:39 And so that parable is about uh I mean that parable blows up

1:25:43 uh merit and it shows that you're saved by grace and not merit.

1:25:46 And so it's this whole parable that Jesus tells.

1:25:49 And again, you have to realize when he's telling stuff like

1:25:51 this and when he's telling a story about the prodical son,

1:25:53 the Jewish leaders would be pissed off because they're like, "Yeah,

1:25:58 Tim Keller wrote a book called Prodigal

1:25:59 God." And that story is actually it's it's

1:26:02 it's great because what Jesus is doing is is showing how prodigal a rogue God

1:26:06 because that's what the story is about is this father who's you know giving

1:26:10 this lavish grace that that wouldn't be anyways

1:26:13 I'm going to go back to Matthew 20.

1:26:14 Man I'm like a retriever.

1:26:16 If something's thrown out there Cam I'm going to chase it.

1:26:18 So So I'll reel it back in.

1:26:19 Love it.

1:26:19 Love it.

1:26:21 That's why we're doing this.

1:26:22 Matthew 20 uh is there's this laborer and he goes out and he find and he finds

1:26:28 someone to come and and work his vineyard

1:26:31 and he does that first thing in the morning

1:26:32 and and then he comes out a few hours later and he gets someone else and he does

1:26:35 that on until the evening until basically right

1:26:38 at dark and then it's time to pay their wages.

1:26:40 Well, he agreed to pay them a a daenerius, you know.

1:26:43 Um and so he starts off by paying the person

1:26:45 that he just hired right before dark who hardly worked at all.

1:26:48 In fact, some people have really taken the time

1:26:52 to break it down to show that like he he might have not even done anything

1:26:55 by the time that he got out there, right?

1:26:56 But he still got paid.

1:26:58 And and then the person that came in, you know, around noon, got paid.

1:27:01 And then what what what the people started to think,

1:27:03 and this is where the frustration is,

1:27:04 is they're like, "Okay, well, I'm getting ready to be paid.

1:27:07 That guy didn't do anything.

1:27:08 He got a daenarius.

1:27:09 That guy did more.

1:27:11 He got a Daenerys.

1:27:12 Since I came at the very start of the day,

1:27:14 I'm probably going to get a lot more." Two, three.

1:27:16 Yeah.

1:27:16 Yeah.

1:27:17 And then he gives him a daenarius

1:27:18 and he's using that story to show you're not saved based upon your merit,

1:27:22 based upon your work, based upon your effort.

1:27:24 You're saved based upon grace.

1:27:27 And so even parables like that that Jesus tells

1:27:30 are just brilliant and just show his infinite wisdom.

1:27:32 And and so I I love parables like that.

1:27:35 I told you yesterday one of my favorite verses that's like

1:27:37 of even today I was out on a walk and I was just reminded myself of that.

1:27:42 I believe Lord help me with my unbelief.

1:27:44 Mhm.

1:27:45 Got faith.

1:27:46 Help me with the little faith I have.

1:27:48 I want to trust.

1:27:49 Yeah.

1:27:49 I trust.

1:27:50 Help me with my lack of trust.

1:27:51 So, that's that's a huge one for me in this season of life.

1:27:53 Or planting.

1:27:55 Planting's expensive.

1:27:56 It's scary.

1:27:56 I'm stepping into the town that I

1:27:59 also hurt people in and cause problems in and stuff like that.

1:28:03 So, so yeah, there's a lot where I'm like, "All right, Lord, I believe.

1:28:05 Help.

1:28:05 Hel help me with my unbelief." And so, yeah,

1:28:07 I'm in I'm in that season where that prayer is a living

1:28:10 prayer and reality for me.

1:28:11 So, yeah.

1:28:12 Yeah.

1:28:12 Oh, that's good.

1:28:13 Yeah.

1:28:13 What about for you?

1:28:14 You got some you have some verses tattooed on your uh on your body, don't you?

1:28:18 Well, I always I had another question for you.

1:28:20 Okay.

1:28:21 So, tell me how this would go over.

1:28:23 What if you go and set set up this church down there in Roseberg and whatever

1:28:28 you're uh you're plugging away and then

1:28:31 new guy comes in, your replacement up here, and this one just blows up

1:28:35 and it's like you can't like can't even fit all the people in there.

1:28:39 Okay.

1:28:39 I I didn't I didn't know if you meant like implodes or No.

1:28:42 No.

1:28:42 No, it goes crazy.

1:28:44 Blows up in the right way.

1:28:45 Yeah.

1:28:45 Yeah.

1:28:46 Uh, how would I respond to that?

1:28:49 Yeah.

1:28:49 Yeah.

1:28:49 I would cuz let me let me So,

1:28:52 you said you got to preface this when you're talking to your buddy.

1:28:54 You got to say this is, you know, I have flaws, too.

1:28:56 So, when I left my job, there's a little part of me thinking like,

1:29:02 I hope it just turns into a[ __] show.

1:29:04 And then because it kind of it validates my work like,

1:29:07 oh, you see, I was doing good here.

1:29:09 That's it was people didn't realize how good I was.

1:29:11 Yeah, that's my ego.

1:29:14 Y I really didn't want them to fail, but you sort of do sometime a little bit.

1:29:20 Yeah.

1:29:20 So, this is me.

1:29:21 I see this is why I need to go to church.

1:29:24 I I think man uh though it's a hypothetical,

1:29:34 I think I would genuinely be excited like like I want

1:29:36 this church family to thrive and grow and and and and be healthy.

1:29:41 That's you're saying exactly what you're supposed to say.

1:29:46 Yeah.

1:29:45 And and I knew you would think that.

1:29:49 But in all reality, if it doesn't,

1:29:51 I think that also says something about my leadership, too.

1:29:54 That that that that's terrifying to me.

1:29:56 And so that can also be a reality.

1:29:57 And that that I created, you know,

1:30:00 it was a cult personality more than it was anything else.

1:30:02 It was just there for me.

1:30:04 And so, so I think the success of planting churches is when you're not there.

1:30:08 They're still I thought you were going to say something like this like

1:30:12 uh one of our members asked uh you know hey

1:30:15 you're taking the name down there to Roseberg what if you get

1:30:18 become weird and woke that that's what was asked and I was like could happen

1:30:21 well I was like well what if that happens to you

1:30:23 guys like the same question could be asked here you know

1:30:26 and and whatnot but yeah I I am man I'm hopeful

1:30:32 that that that the church grows and thrives and is healthy and successful.

1:30:40 So, yeah.

1:30:40 And and I'm trying to like like plummet the depths

1:30:44 of my heart to be like what I here here's the thing.

1:30:48 I I I know how I'm wired and and so here's my problem.

1:30:52 I'm wired to be a planter and start things.

1:30:55 I don't think I'm good at all the fine-tuning that the older a church

1:31:00 gets and the more nuance things get and and the more administrative they are,

1:31:05 that is just not I love creating.

1:31:07 I love building.

1:31:08 I love pulling people together.

1:31:09 I love starting.

1:31:10 I love that stuff.

1:31:11 So Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3, he says,

1:31:14 uh, you know, that I planted and Apollos watered.

1:31:17 I don't think I'm a waterer.

1:31:18 And I and I think the guy who comes in to lead

1:31:21 for us needs to be really good at watering and and doing that stuff.

1:31:24 And so, so yeah, so I someone asked me, they're like,

1:31:28 "What are you going to do in Roseberg in 10 years?" You know,

1:31:30 he's gonna going to go plant another church or something.

1:31:33 So, yeah, that's what I was wondering, too,

1:31:35 because I am like that also where I'm

1:31:37 I get the dopamine hit from the new challenge.

1:31:41 Mhm.

1:31:41 But then cuz I get bored easy.

1:31:43 Yeah.

1:31:43 Then once the new challenge is gone, then it's like what?

1:31:47 Yeah.

1:31:47 Like you said, administrative.

1:31:48 It's like just same old normal.

1:31:50 This feels like regular life again.

1:31:52 Yeah.

1:31:52 I don't want regular life.

1:31:53 I want the excitement of this challenge and this, you know,

1:31:56 you said you're scared about it.

1:31:57 Is it going to fail?

1:31:58 Like that is cool, but like I wonder if to to be the best pastor

1:32:02 as you said your goal was if you need to develop that other part too.

1:32:07 You know what I mean?

1:32:08 So you make the big splash, but then also like how do we how do we

1:32:13 continue to to build this?

1:32:15 Yeah.

1:32:15 And and that's the tricky question is there's a way in God there's

1:32:20 a way in which God created us and and he gave us our strengths.

1:32:23 Do we spend more time developing the areas of our weakness

1:32:26 or do we spend more time leaning into our strengths?

1:32:28 Which is why some churches hire guys that are more of an executive pastor role

1:32:33 because they're really good at all the the nuts and bolts and stuff like that.

1:32:38 I'm Yeah, I'm not a nuts and bolts China shop.

1:32:41 I'm not I'm not a nuts and bolts kind of guy.

1:32:44 I would I didn't get to the I had some questions for you.

1:32:46 I didn't get to them.

1:32:47 Oh man.

1:32:48 Um what' you have?

1:32:49 Uh well, here's You were known as a holy terror.

1:32:53 What What were you actually running from?

1:32:56 That's good.

1:32:56 That is good.

1:32:57 I think I gave you quite a bit of what I was running from.

1:33:00 Uh my mom gave me that nickname, by the way.

1:33:02 So that's why Yeah, that's why it's Yeah, it's a good one.

1:33:07 Yep.

1:33:07 Um what do you think people misunderstood about you back then?

1:33:12 Man, what do what do I think people misunderstood about me?

1:33:16 I here's here's a big one is that I was a pretty sensitive kid growing up.

1:33:24 Like pretty just Yeah.

1:33:27 Pretty sensitive and uh but acted tough like

1:33:32 Well, no, I I think I think part of that is

1:33:34 or when you were small, you were sensitive and not tough.

1:33:37 Yeah.

1:33:37 Totally.

1:33:38 Yeah.

1:33:38 And and then and then Yeah.

1:33:40 like like like just so much of me is like raised by this ultimate man's

1:33:44 man and I'm like dude I'm pretty sensitive

1:33:46 like like like I just remember seeing like

1:33:49 I hate bullies to this day but like when people are picked on and stuff like

1:33:52 that like like I just remember like it would make me sad and stuff like that.

1:33:55 So I think part of it is that you know even

1:33:57 the intimidating factor that that I have from how I look.

1:34:00 I think once people get to know me like

1:34:02 there is like there is still a reality that

1:34:05 I think like God created a guy who's still sensitive and yeah I don't know

1:34:13 that that so much of me of what I was doing was trying to like respond to

1:34:18 being who my dad wanted me to do and all that stuff and and to be clear

1:34:21 that insecure a little bit.

1:34:23 did the steroids to be the big strong guy.

1:34:26 So yeah, I mean I was a chameleon, too.

1:34:27 I think that's the hard thing is like I would be whoever I

1:34:30 needed to be in whatever group I was in in order to survive,

1:34:34 including when I was around my dad, I wanted to be who Yeah.

1:34:37 I think just like like any son,

1:34:40 it's like you're just longing for your father's approval and stuff like that.

1:34:43 So yeah.

1:34:44 Yeah.

1:34:44 I don't know.

1:34:44 I don't even know if that's a good answer,

1:34:46 but I guess that's what I would say is Yeah.

1:34:51 is that there was a whole lot of mess going on.

1:34:57 And man, I want to be careful what I say and I've grown in this more especially

1:35:01 over the last couple years because there's a lot

1:35:05 of good stuff that I learned from my dad.

1:35:09 But I think the difficult thing was is that what you're

1:35:13 describing was a living reality for me and I would say

1:35:16 especially for my mom and that's who my heart breaks more

1:35:18 for is that uh we could put on the best facade.

1:35:23 We could go to church and and we could even go to church

1:35:27 as as a family and and my dad commanded respect just just his presence alone.

1:35:34 But man, we're full of crap.

1:35:36 I I mean just just if someone could have looked on what was going on inside

1:35:40 of the walls of the home and and stuff like that, it was just Yeah.

1:35:43 So So I think Yeah.

1:35:46 When you say imposttor syndrome, I think for so long Mhm.

1:35:51 I had an imposttor syndrome,

1:35:52 but I think also I think our I think my my mom has said this.

1:35:56 She's like, I think our whole family was in survival mode.

1:36:00 Yeah.

1:35:59 Yeah.

1:35:59 I used to take pretty intense sleeping aids.

1:36:03 Yeah.

1:36:03 The last week of my dad's life.

1:36:04 It was pretty awesome.

1:36:05 uh got to spend some time with him and got to go in the room with him

1:36:08 and asked my mom to leave and I said uh my dad was huge on eye

1:36:12 contact and so I said hey can I talk to you and he's like yeah go

1:36:15 ahead and uh and and then I I started to lay stuff out for him I'm

1:36:19 like hey this is what it was like and and he just looked away and he

1:36:23 looked away the entire conversation um and I said but I want you to know I

1:36:27 forgive you and uh and I think you did the best you could and then I

1:36:32 left the room uh I I could see that there were tears in his eyes said anything,

1:36:35 but I left the room.

1:36:36 It's pretty crazy.

1:36:37 I've never taken sleeping medication,

1:36:39 like prescription sleeping medication since that day.

1:36:41 So, um, but yeah, man, there was just a

1:36:44 Do you think so that that was a relief for you to be able to say that to him?

1:36:50 Yeah.

1:36:50 And that gave you peace

1:36:52 uh for so long just so much bitterness and hostility and anger and

1:36:55 probably afraid and like when he's in a hospital, but he's vulnerable.

1:36:58 So, you feel like you can Okay, finally I can say how I feel.

1:37:03 Oh, yeah.

1:37:03 And I told my wife, I'm like, man,

1:37:05 like regardless of how much training you have and whatever you learn,

1:37:11 like I was still terrified of my dad, you know,

1:37:13 there's just like, man, there's just a deep fear there.

1:37:15 But uh but yeah, I felt like yeah,

1:37:18 the power of trul truly of forgiveness and and uh yeah,

1:37:24 of what what I would say is basically just holding glass or holding

1:37:29 barb wire for so long hoping that it was going to somehow

1:37:32 impact him or something like that, but it was just destroying me.

1:37:35 And so yeah, and and so but yeah,

1:37:37 I would say uh people probably didn't know the depths

1:37:41 of what was going on inside of the home, you know, because I think

1:37:44 that that would be misunderstanding.

1:37:45 Yeah, for sure.

1:37:46 Was it cancer?

1:37:48 Would your dad Yeah.

1:37:49 And you would have never So my dad

1:37:51 retired probably the hardest working guy I've ever known.

1:37:54 Retired after 44 years with the railroad and then he got two jobs.

1:37:58 He was working part-time for a butcher just

1:38:00 straight out for meat and then he was working as a janitor for for one

1:38:04 of his close friends to clean the office at night.

1:38:06 So he was just a guy who couldn't sit still and Yeah.

1:38:10 Yeah.

1:38:10 He's got some positive attributes.

1:38:11 I mean got some negative too.

1:38:13 But like did after that talk did it ever come up again

1:38:17 or how how long was he alive after that?

1:38:19 No.

1:38:19 No.

1:38:19 I remember uh it it never came up again.

1:38:25 Uh, I got to take care of my dad

1:38:27 the last week of his life by by quite literally,

1:38:30 you know, and and you could just I could see the humiliation in his face,

1:38:33 which which it it does.

1:38:34 It breaks my heart now because he's like, you know,

1:38:36 he would say he always call me my boy.

1:38:38 He'd say, "Ain't this some crap, my boy?

1:38:40 I got used sitting here giving me a sponge bath and stuff like dad,

1:38:43 he's like, "This is what's waiting for," you know?

1:38:44 And so, it's just like, you know, it's like, man, but but yeah,

1:38:47 uh I think there was I I think my dad I think my dad,

1:38:52 the one thing he said, which it still sticks out to me,

1:38:55 he says, "I don't think I know who I am,

1:38:58 but I've always had this hard shell on the inside,

1:39:01 but I don't know if that's consistent who I am on the inside." I was like,

1:39:03 "Oh my gosh, like you just said what how I felt for most of my childhood,

1:39:08 but like all I've ever thought of you is like hard hard.

1:39:11 You don't cry.

1:39:12 You don't show emotion.

1:39:13 You My dad's three favorite words in his life were suck it up.

1:39:16 I was bit by a copperhead when I was 10 years old and he took me home and told

1:39:19 me to suck it up and my mom made him take You'll have to ask mom about that.

1:39:22 My mom was like take him to the hospital.

1:39:24 Are you crazy?

1:39:25 And yeah, suck it up.

1:39:26 Those were his words, man.

1:39:27 And so so yeah, but I think it was it was

1:39:30 wild for me to hear him say that like from Yeah.

1:39:33 More or less like for the majority of my life, I don't think I've

1:39:36 been the man that I actually am on the inside.

1:39:38 I just know how to have this shell and this and and that's what he's done.

1:39:42 So, yeah.

1:39:43 So, what when he died, what was that like?

1:39:49 Man, people ask like if you had three wishes, what were they?

1:39:51 I'd say that all my family, friends,

1:39:53 and loved ones are saved that I'd be a billionaire if I'm going to be,

1:39:57 you know, if we're honest.

1:39:58 For sure.

1:39:59 Yeah.

1:39:59 Yeah.

1:39:59 Uh

1:40:00 and I'd like to have another day with my dad cuz uh my dad got me into hunting.

1:40:04 Like my dad taught me about work eth ethic.

1:40:05 My dad taught me a lot.

1:40:07 there's just a lot of conversations that I that that I want to know

1:40:10 more about my dad and where my dad was at and stuff like that.

1:40:13 So, um I I try to answer questions for my dad because I was like, "Hey,

1:40:17 if you were, you know, if this is like when he was dying, but I was like,

1:40:21 if you die today, you stand before God in heaven." It's famous question,

1:40:25 you know, or classic question of and God says, "Why should I let you in?

1:40:29 Dad, what are you going to say?" And I'm listening

1:40:31 if people are going to answer in the first person

1:40:34 and say I or if they're going to answer in second or third person.

1:40:37 And so I wanted to just force his question to be and just be like,

1:40:40 "Dad, don't say anything.

1:40:41 Just point to Jesus and say he's

1:40:43 he's the only reason I can come in." You know, strategy.

1:40:45 Yeah.

1:40:45 Yeah.

1:40:46 Like this is this is what this is what you

1:40:47 would want to do if this were to happen, you know.

1:40:49 But um my dad would profess to be a Christian.

1:40:54 Um and we we would profess to have been uh

1:40:57 you know raised in somewhat of a Christian home.

1:41:01 But I think my mom and loosely speaking the Yeah.

1:41:05 There there isn't a child who made it in our home uh outside

1:41:09 of me past the age of 16 years old like they ran away or left.

1:41:12 It was just I'll say it was it was tough.

1:41:17 Yeah.

1:41:16 Yeah.

1:41:16 So tougher than what it was portrayed to be and that's what's difficult.

1:41:22 So but what do you mean tougher than it?

1:41:26 Yeah.

1:41:25 So so it didn't seem from the outside didn't seem as bad as it probably was.

1:41:29 I have again there's guys and people who have way harder lives me.

1:41:32 So, so I don't want to say I've had like

1:41:33 the toughest life because there's aspects of my life that were good.

1:41:35 I mean, my parents were married.

1:41:37 That's, you know, like that's that's not a Yeah.

1:41:40 My dad wasn't around.

1:41:41 Yeah.

1:41:42 So, like your dad was there, right?

1:41:43 Totally.

1:41:43 And so, there's aspects like that where I was like, man, and my dad worked hard.

1:41:47 It's not like we were broke or poor or anything.

1:41:48 Like, my dad worked hard to do whatever he could to to get us nice stuff.

1:41:52 So, it's not like those things were there.

1:41:54 It's just like Yeah.

1:41:56 There was a Yeah.

1:41:59 Yeah.

1:41:59 just a this is what a Sunday morning face looks like and then this is what

1:42:05 was it like didn't I mean nervous to go home uh or for him to come home.

1:42:14 Oh man.

1:42:15 Yeah.

1:42:15 And my mom would say the same thing is

1:42:18 that that was just a common emotion whenever my dad was around.

1:42:20 We we would if if whenever my dad was uh this was our habit

1:42:25 and maybe you did this too uh with your mom or something like that.

1:42:27 Uh, but whenever dad came home, we we grabbed rakes,

1:42:30 we grabbed whatever we could and we started moving

1:42:31 around the house and acting like we were doing.

1:42:33 But my mom would do it too and it was just

1:42:34 like his presence is like no one's sitting down and my wife

1:42:38 noticed even like when I was growing up that when when

1:42:40 my dad was around I would start grabbing stuff and doing stuff.

1:42:42 So it's like ingrained in there to like don't sit around, don't be lazy.

1:42:47 Yeah.

1:42:46 And all that.

1:42:47 So yeah, just uh Have you ever seen the movie Tree of Life?

1:42:52 No.

1:42:52 It's pretty good.

1:42:52 But uh I always say that our house reminds me of that house

1:42:56 in the movie which maybe but Brad Pitt's the dad and he was really hard

1:43:01 and so like when he would go travel for work

1:43:05 it was just playtime jumping on the mom and the kids jumping on the furniture

1:43:10 on the bed just having the best time and then dad gets home it's like oh god.

1:43:15 Yeah.

1:43:15 So that's that was like they I always say that's how it was for me.

1:43:19 Like when I'd leave and then when I'd come home it'd be like,

1:43:22 "Oh god, dad's home." So that's my mom my mom will kill me for saying this.

1:43:28 Uh but uh you know, I was baptized Catholic.

1:43:32 Uh dad would have called himself a Southern Baptist.

1:43:35 I I grew up in Texas before Roseber.

1:43:37 We moved there when I was about 13.

1:43:38 But uh man, it was funny because the the the Baptist pastor

1:43:43 would come over to our house and my mom would run around.

1:43:44 She'd be like, "All right, all right.

1:43:46 Put the booze away." But like it was like going around the house

1:43:48 and like taking all the alcohol and like shoving it in the cabin can drink.

1:43:51 Yeah.

1:43:52 Yeah.

1:43:52 And shoving it and hiding it and stuff like that because

1:43:54 the the the pastor was over and so so much of that was like and

1:43:59 yeah, I remember uh my my mom would say

1:44:01 like whenever they would even sit down with the pastor,

1:44:03 talk about whatever's going on in their marriage that my dad was so intimidating

1:44:07 that that he would say um you don't know me and I don't know you.

1:44:12 And uh and so he would set the course

1:44:14 of how those meetings are going to go watch it.

1:44:16 And and so essentially like people were terrified of him,

1:44:19 you know, so no one's gonna say anything.

1:44:20 Uh just ground rules to that.

1:44:22 Yeah.

1:44:22 He's he's setting the ground rules up front

1:44:23 and this is how the meeting is going to go down.

1:44:25 And so yeah, so there was this whole facade of like this is

1:44:29 what it's and I think that's why I had such a hard

1:44:31 time with for for a while I had such a hard time

1:44:35 with Christians and and and whatnot because I'm like yeah I just

1:44:39 I I think it's there's a lot of BS and I'm like and because we hid behind that.

1:44:44 Yeah.

1:44:45 So yeah.

1:44:46 No, that I get that.

1:44:47 The facade I I was like, you know,

1:44:50 when a when a man loses his dad or a son loses his father,

1:44:56 whatever it is, it's such a I mean,

1:44:58 you you talking about that in the hospital cuz my dad died of cancer also.

1:45:02 And it's just like it doesn't matter how old you are or how what

1:45:06 you've went through or how it's like seeing your dad,

1:45:10 you know, we always want to be strong.

1:45:12 We always want to be we set the standard.

1:45:15 This is watch me.

1:45:16 This is the standard.

1:45:18 And when that goes away, I just I I'll just, you know,

1:45:23 I was very thankful that I had those moments

1:45:26 kind of like what you just described with your dad,

1:45:27 with my dad, where he couldn't do anything.

1:45:29 He was just laying in bed and so we could just talk.

1:45:31 There was no other distraction.

1:45:33 But I'll just never forget, you know, he died.

1:45:37 I I go over there.

1:45:39 Uh he died at his house.

1:45:40 you know, he's just hospice, but then there,

1:45:43 you know, the corner's there and he's like, "Oh, man.

1:45:46 I'm just by myself.

1:45:47 Uh, can you help me get him out to the car?" And so,

1:45:52 you know, carrying your dad in a body bag is like I'll never forget.

1:45:58 Like, we're just just like you like, "Hey,

1:46:00 I need help moving that bench out to the truck." Just like that.

1:46:03 It was just so weird.

1:46:04 And it was just like I'm like that's

1:46:08 the last memory of my dad is just like here we go and get him in there.

1:46:12 And it's like I was grown.

1:46:14 I was you know 40ome years old but you know

1:46:20 still now if I think about it or if I think

1:46:22 about Roy too it's like man we're not that[ __] tough

1:46:27 or I'm not that tough because it can still impact me.

1:46:31 Oh yeah.

1:46:31 you know, and it's like we go through these lives.

1:46:34 Did you get to have some of those like hard conversations with your dad or not?

1:46:37 Yeah.

1:46:37 Yeah.

1:46:38 Yeah.

1:46:38 When he was like, "No, we did." And you know,

1:46:40 that's what I say I'm thankful for because

1:46:42 we didn't have those moments cuz I'm I'm busy.

1:46:44 He's he was coaching at South forever.

1:46:47 So, he's always busy with the kids and you know, so we just when he's healthy,

1:46:52 just like a lot of people, you just you're just doing your life.

1:46:55 Yeah.

1:46:55 you know, so you there is a blessing even

1:46:58 though it was a terrible long uh painful death.

1:47:03 Um there there was some positive to it you

1:47:08 know with the having that time to be able to

1:47:11 go over things and you know apologize or do whatever just have a real talk.

1:47:16 But uh yeah, it's like when you talk I I just it

1:47:19 just brought all that back when you were talking about your dad

1:47:21 and you know it's you know when we talk about being leaders

1:47:24 and being men and what that means and and how it can impact others.

1:47:30 It's like I don't know.

1:47:31 I don't I don't know if we don't guys don't

1:47:33 talk about it enough but anyway just I just wanted to just bring it up.

1:47:38 Yeah.

1:47:38 Just cuz you reminded me of it.

1:47:39 this there is this reality is like for so much

1:47:42 of my life all all I wanted to do and that's I

1:47:45 think that a lot of boys are like that with their dad

1:47:46 but like I just wanted to be like my dad

1:47:48 my dad literally took me hunting for the first time when I

1:47:50 was 5 years old you know like that yeah it's it's it's amazing and uh

1:47:56 yeah he would tell people I shot the deer and that's not

1:47:58 the case but but but I got the credit and the glory

1:48:00 for and stuff like that and so yeah and I think for so

1:48:05 long though that I was striving so hard to gain my father's his approval,

1:48:09 but to no avail that I was just like, man, I'm exhausted, you know,

1:48:12 and so and then I would say that's when like just more disappointment

1:48:16 and and and all that came and I just think it finally took its toll.

1:48:20 I think I just finally started to quit because I was like, well,

1:48:22 I think the other side of this to just make him

1:48:24 give up on any anything in me is just to quit.

1:48:27 When did he die?

1:48:28 He died when uh my oldest daughter, she's 12.

1:48:33 And so my wife was six.

1:48:34 So he he died 13 years ago.

1:48:37 Yeah.

1:48:37 How long have you been preaching?

1:48:40 Uh, I've been preaching since I was we planted here when I was 32 10 years ago.

1:48:46 And I started pastoring at the church down in Reno

1:48:50 or I was a family pastor down there for a couple years.

1:48:52 And so that's where I first started preaching.

1:48:53 And so my dad got to come and hear me preach.

1:48:55 Oh, he did.

1:48:56 That's what I was going to say.

1:48:56 It's like, has he seen your progression?

1:48:59 Because I mean I I would have I was just thinking of that before I asked.

1:49:03 It's like he'd have to be proud of you.

1:49:06 I think I I think if you ask if you if my dad was here today,

1:49:09 he would tell you my best friend uh uh Dave uh my dad.

1:49:15 So Dave would tell me he's like, "Hey man,

1:49:17 I had lunch with your dad today." I was like,

1:49:18 "I had lunch with my dad." And he's like,

1:49:19 "Yeah." He's like uh he's told me that he's

1:49:23 just sorry and regretful for for his actions

1:49:27 and decisions and how he raised you and and all that sort of stuff.

1:49:30 And and so uh and then he said that at our wedding, too.

1:49:35 So he had the microphone.

1:49:36 I mean, most people couldn't understand him.

1:49:38 Uh, is that your friend or your dad?

1:49:41 No, no, my dad did.

1:49:42 So, so, so he grabbed So, I've never heard him say these things,

1:49:44 but but my buddy would tell me,

1:49:46 "He had lunch with your dad and and this is how he's feeling." And so,

1:49:48 I was like, I was like, "Oh." But until our wedding, uh, he did it then.

1:49:51 He grabbed the microphone and um,

1:49:53 uh, and yeah, uh, again, my dad's so he's raised in Arkansas.

1:50:00 My wife could not understand me.

1:50:01 So I was always like interpreting, you know,

1:50:03 and so uh but most people couldn't understand a lot of what he said,

1:50:07 but at the end of what everything he did say, and that's how I know.

1:50:10 I'm like, man, yeah, he he he was proud of me is that, uh, he said, uh,

1:50:14 I'll tell you one thing for certain is that he said that boy

1:50:16 right there is the finest boy in the United States of America.

1:50:18 And I was like, the only thing that people could understand.

1:50:20 So something someone made me a shirt that says

1:50:22 finest boy in the United States of America.

1:50:24 Hell of a title.

1:50:25 That title belongs to me, man.

1:50:26 No one else.

1:50:27 I mean, you can go for Yeah.

1:50:29 Put on a belt.

1:50:30 Second place out there for someone.

1:50:32 But yeah, but but yeah.

1:50:33 So, so all that to say is like so he during during that speech,

1:50:36 he said like, "I'm sorry for not being around.

1:50:38 I'm sorry for how hard it was.

1:50:40 I'm sorry for these types of things," which was

1:50:41 hard for me in that setting cuz I was like, "Man, I it was awkward, you know,

1:50:44 and then stuff like that." Uh, but I feel bad cuz someone asked me why

1:50:47 I never went up to him and hugged him afterwards.

1:50:49 And I just think I don't think I was ready to hear it.

1:50:51 I don't think my heart was there.

1:50:53 So, yeah.

1:50:54 Yeah.