Why "Winning" An Argument Actually Destroys Your Relationships | Jefferson Fisher

0:00 I am a fifth generation trial attorney.

0:02 I grew up in a small town in southeast Texas.

0:05 In fact, I still live in that small town.

0:07 Uh where we have biggest store is

0:10 the Walmart that services probably eight different towns.

0:14 And we have a Chili's.

0:15 [laughter] And so that's that's really where we're at.

0:19 And I um I'm the oldest of four.

0:23 So I grew up here.

0:24 I rode the bus.

0:25 You know what I mean?

0:26 Like I I I I walked I walked home uh from the stop sign.

0:32 That was probably a half a mile.

0:34 It felt like half a mile.

0:35 It probably wasn't that long, but um look at me.

0:38 I'm already sounding like my dad.

0:39 [laughter] So anyway, the snow both directions.

0:42 Yeah, I know.

0:43 All of a sudden, yeah, I need to make it really cold and miserable.

0:46 So yeah, my dad's an attorney.

0:47 His dad's an attorney.

0:49 So I grew up around law where some kids got picked up,

0:52 you know, taken to a playground after school or home.

0:55 A lot of times I got picked up and dropped to my dad's

0:58 deposition where he would finish his deposition

1:00 because my mom couldn't pick me up, my dad did whatever the schedule was.

1:05 They didn't want me to be home alone for whatever

1:07 that this was before they just left me at home.

1:10 And I would just listen to the rest

1:12 of his deposition while I'm doodling on a yellow notepad.

1:15 And then it got to me watching

1:17 his trials in courtrooms uh and closing arguments.

1:21 And that developed a lot of know in my life what I saw and how I saw arguments

1:29 and how I saw him be very much the um

1:34 someone who is more of a diplomat in conversations.

1:38 My dad is not somebody who's very quick to anger

1:41 and I'm I have a lot of that same personality.

1:44 My mother is extremely kind and I loved being the big brother.

1:48 Loved being the oldest of of four.

1:50 Still do.

1:50 There's 11 years difference between me and my youngest brother Jacob.

1:55 And you know I I after college law school um

2:00 my my wife is my high school sweetheart and we

2:04 have this um world now where you go how

2:09 in the world did he get started in these videos?

2:10 Well I had been working at a law firm for close to 10 years.

2:14 I had made partner there.

2:16 Mind you this is the same law firm where my dad was.

2:18 I had a lot of different offers at different law firms.

2:20 I really liked his his firm.

2:22 I still consider his firm one of the the most prestigious

2:25 in in our area and I wanted to do my own thing.

2:29 Probably a lot of it was I'm, you know, mid20s.

2:32 I think I can do everything better, know everything better.

2:35 [laughter] If I was in charge, it all run differently kind of thing.

2:38 Um, but a lot of it I just felt creatively stale.

2:43 And so I thought, well, I want to do my own thing.

2:46 And when I started my law firm, this was that was beginning of 2022.

2:53 At the same time, I thought, well, I guess I ought to be on social media.

2:57 I mean, that's probably a good place to start.

3:00 Well, how do I do it?

3:00 I Googled so many things.

3:03 And I first started talking about how to what to do after a car accident,

3:08 talking about legal things in in my videos,

3:10 and then I thought, well, this doesn't feel very good.

3:13 Uh, it really doesn't feel very good.

3:15 just selling myself.

3:17 And by the way, not everybody needs a personal injury attorney,

3:21 you know, most people don't.

3:23 I mean, who who needs one until you're hurt?

3:26 And so I thought, well, what's what's my what do I I want my legacy to be?

3:31 What do I want my kids to remember?

3:33 And I thought, well,

3:34 I'll tell people what I know I know better than anybody in my world,

3:40 what I can share, and that's how to communicate better,

3:43 how to help their arguments, how to help them communicate.

3:47 And I started my lessons, my little videos in my car by myself on how

3:51 to how to argue like a lawyer, part one.

3:54 And then after that, it just started slowly taking off and taking off.

3:58 And I I'm still learning lessons every day.

4:01 I still don't really know what I'm doing.

4:02 Figuring it out.

4:03 How much of what you teach and talk about and sort

4:07 of your whole philosophy of communication did you pick up by osmosis?

4:12 In other words, did you Yeah.

4:14 observe your dad and your grandfather doing these things

4:17 like taking a breath, doing a body scan, doing the small talk thing,

4:23 or or is that something that you sort of distilled from watching them?

4:27 A lot of that is not them.

4:29 Yeah.

4:29 I I would say the breath for sure is my dad.

4:32 They just hadn't put it in that kind of form.

4:35 My grandfather is very different than my dad.

4:38 My dad takes after his mother who is much more thoughtful.

4:42 My grandfather is quick to rise

4:46 and um he's hilarious, but he's a wonderful storyteller.

4:49 Probably the best storyteller I've I've ever been around

4:52 in my life and and probably ever will be.

4:55 You're pretty good yourself.

4:56 And No, thank you.

4:58 But he's he he is just I I'll never for forget when I the day I

5:02 was married uh we had all the guys

5:04 rooted together and my grandfather's just holding court.

5:06 I mean he's just he has all [laughter] these young guys in my groomsman.

5:09 They're just enraptured by his stories.

5:11 He's has hunting stories for days.

5:14 And so um they're all just

5:16 enthralled [laughter] like this guy's your grandfather.

5:18 I was like yeah.

5:19 Uh anyway the question is how did I get this approach?

5:22 How did I learn a lot of this stuff?

5:25 To me, it's it's one I understand it's a gift and it's truly my my joy,

5:30 my blessing to share it.

5:32 It's something that I believe my parents prayed for.

5:35 I will always credit that.

5:38 Two, I I have parents that were very

5:42 intentional in how they handled communication with me.

5:46 And I would say two of I learned at a very early age.

5:51 I'm the typical prototype oldest, the firstborn,

5:55 the heavy responsibilities, grow up very quickly.

5:59 I became respons.

6:00 Yeah, there you go.

6:01 So, like when I'm 16, I'm driving all of my siblings to school.

6:06 I have my youngest brother's spelling words, going over those with him,

6:11 asking my younger brother, did he finish his reading assignment,

6:14 helping Sarah get her backpack together.

6:16 like this.

6:17 I am like I might as well have had a minivan

6:21 um full of everything dropping in all of my children.

6:24 I did have a minivan.

6:26 So, yeah.

6:26 Yeah.

6:27 Okay.

6:27 Well, then there you go.

6:28 Yeah.

6:28 Well, mine was uh it was quickly a Suburban, so I I inherited the family's 96,

6:34 but I loved it.

6:36 I loved it.

6:36 And so a lot of the the stuff I talk about in the book,

6:39 first part of the book, the small talks,

6:40 the scans, that a lot of that's my own thing that I

6:44 found and grew and learned in the early part of my career

6:50 that helped transform me from someone who is trying to prove everything.

6:55 Prove myself, prove this, prove that, prove that.

6:58 That turned into the no, I know who I am.

7:01 No, I know what it the respect will come later.

7:04 You don't have to prove it right now.

7:05 You just continue to be consistent.

7:07 You continue to be disciplined.

7:08 And that's where a lot of those things came from.

7:11 The never win an argument mindset is something

7:13 I believe so strongly in because I have seen

7:17 the opposite turn out to be false every

7:19 single time where you always set out to win.

7:23 And there are are books that are titled win every argument.

7:28 There are blogs how to win every argument.

7:30 And I would read those and just shake my head

7:34 because I just see that as such just snake

7:37 oil salesman just this how could you possibly try

7:41 and teach this to people because that's just not real life.

7:45 It's not real life.

7:47 Um even as an attorney people say look you should don't you win every argument.

7:52 No absolutely not.

7:55 It's it's it's nothing's in a vacuum.

7:58 As an attorney, I don't really win arguments.

8:02 I I have facts.

8:04 I can't I can't choose my own facts that when a client comes in, they

8:10 have to give me what what the problem is and I have to run with that.

8:13 I got to play the cards that are dealt.

8:15 Same thing with the law.

8:15 I can't change the law.

8:17 I can't choose which law applies.

8:19 It's not like you get a a choice A, B, C, D, all the above.

8:23 Like there's you are confined to a set of parameters and you have to do what

8:31 you can do best which is advocate

8:33 for your client based on the parameters that are set.

8:36 And you have a judge, you have a court reporter, you have a baiff,

8:39 you have a opposing council,

8:40 and you have 12 jurors or maybe six if you're in the county court.

8:45 And it's up to them, the decision makers,

8:48 to apply what you give to the law under

8:52 the rules of evidence to come to a decision.

8:55 Period.

8:56 You see how many layers there are.

8:58 It's not just what I say.

9:00 Now, I will say there's a huge power in the influence I have over a jury.

9:05 And it has little to do with what I say,

9:07 but it has almost everything to do with how I make them feel,

9:11 how I ex how I carry myself, how I my client carries him or herself.

9:17 It is all this micro details.

9:20 It's not this big.

9:21 The person who comes in and is

9:23 grandiose just slinging thinking they're everything.

9:26 They're the one that's going to lose almost every every time.

9:29 the person who thinks that they have it all prepared.

9:32 The person who comes in with the shiny, you know, the fancy suit,

9:36 Rolex, shiniest shoes you've ever seen that came in in their Mercedes.

9:40 I'll show you that's an attorney who will lose.

9:43 Uh because it's not relatable to a jury.

9:45 Never is.

9:46 In fact, I'll even tell you this.

9:48 Some of the best trial attorneys that I've seen, of course,

9:51 they make lots of money, um but they also don't go to court in that vehicle.

9:57 They have other vehicles that are old and used

10:00 that they keep they've had their whole life.

10:01 This is like the vehicle they had when they first started out

10:05 because they don't want the jury to see it.

10:07 And so they won't wear their fanciest stuff.

10:09 They won't drive the f wear all their fancy stuff.

10:12 They will be as normal as they can possibly be because that is relatable.

10:18 Um so it's it's funny how even when you

10:20 pull into that parking lot in front of the courtroom,

10:22 you are you are on display at all times.

10:26 And so the jurors will watch every move that you make.

10:30 So why do you say never win an argument?

10:34 Because that that's kind of like all of us fantasize, you know,

10:37 five minutes after we've had the argument,

10:38 we're like thinking through what we should have said

10:41 or what we could have said, which by the way goes to the title of the book.

10:44 But yeah.

10:45 Yeah.

10:45 Just back that up a little bit.

10:47 The question is, do you always want to win an argument?

10:50 When you set out to win an argument, you often will lose the relationship.

10:55 Like if you only see it as something to win,

10:58 that means you're going to lose a lot more.

11:01 Let's ask the question of what have you won.

11:03 Okay, I said the thing that hurts you.

11:06 I said the one thing that took it too far.

11:08 Now you're leaving the room.

11:10 Now you want to hang up the phone.

11:11 Now you're the one who's upset and I'm the one left standing there alone.

11:15 What have you Congrats?

11:16 What what what have you got?

11:18 And you've you've most likely won to be the first to apologize.

11:24 Really?

11:24 That's that's what [laughter] you want

11:26 in in relationships especially at a married.

11:30 You've wanted to be the first to apologize.

11:32 The one who's the last the one who says the thing the last

11:36 who has to say who has to be the last one to get the word.

11:40 You're first up to apologize.

11:41 Congrats.

11:42 Swing away.

11:43 Like it is just this mentality that we have to have of being

11:48 competitive in conversation and heated arguments where

11:52 that's just that's you will lose that.

11:54 You're going to lose their respect.

11:56 You're going to lose their trust and over

11:57 time you're going to lose their relationship.

11:58 I mean who who wants to be around the person who always has to be right.

12:02 and who that that is somebody who is lonely

12:06 and that is somebody who will eventually isolate themselves out

12:10 because nobody's going to want to be around that person.

12:13 What I teach and the whole thesis of this book

12:17 is instead of seeing arguments as something to win,

12:20 you see them as something to unravel.

12:22 Meaning we we you're going to take the loose ends.

12:25 Like if I have there's a direct string between me and y'all and I'm saying no,

12:31 you have to go my way and you're saying no, you have to go my way.

12:34 Well, all that knot does is it gets tighter and tighter.

12:38 And the harder we pull and the longer we pull,

12:41 the harder it becomes to undo, the harder it becomes to unravel.

12:45 And sometimes it takes a whole day to unravel it.

12:48 Maybe it takes a week before emotions die down.

12:51 You're willing to look at it.

12:52 Sometimes, you know what, it's it's over a year.

12:56 Some people haven't spoken to their adult

12:58 child or their parent and whatever it is.

13:01 And it happens to the closest of people,

13:03 they haven't spoken in years because of how tight they made that knot.

13:08 And so that's that the quicker you are to apologize,

13:11 the quicker you are to to start seeing

13:14 where they're coming from, that that knot never tightens.

13:17 Okay, Jefferson, I have to play devil's advocate for a second.

13:20 So, there are times that you want to persuade someone.

13:24 You know, maybe there's a lot at stake.

13:27 Maybe there's something really important that needs to happen.

13:31 Um, my husband and I are dealing

13:33 with this right now in an extended family situation.

13:36 But in a situation where you do want to persuade somebody,

13:40 it's not about winning per se,

13:42 but you but you need to move them maybe for their own best interest.

13:46 First of all, is that valid?

13:48 Second of all, how is that different from like winning an argument?

13:52 And do you help people learn how to be more persuasive,

13:56 but in a way that ultimately is good for a relationship?

13:59 Great question.

14:00 Winning has to do with I'm the last one standing and you know, I have won.

14:05 That's very different from we need to take

14:08 action and I need your cooperation or I need

14:12 you to understand and I need to connect

14:14 with you on the action that's going to be taken.

14:17 Winning says I have no respect really for your feelings.

14:20 I have no respect for your point of view.

14:24 I'm willing to say whatever it takes for you to go away.

14:28 That as you know that has the the fight or flight.

14:31 It's the it's this mindset of I am going to be the king of the the rock,

14:38 whatever it is, the king of the mountain,

14:40 the king of the hill, the person that's left here.

14:42 I'm the one that is right.

14:44 You're the one that is wrong.

14:45 Got it.

14:46 That's that's winning.

14:48 Um the mindset of we have a choice to make and either

14:55 you're going to be with me on this choice or you're not.

14:57 Either way, it's going to be fine with me.

14:58 I'm still going to respect you.

15:00 I'm still going to understand you.

15:01 I'm still going to hear your opinion.

15:03 Like my dad would put it to me this way.

15:06 Growing up, if I disagree with something, let's say I'm 17,

15:12 a lot of things I think I know the way of the world,

15:14 and I would disagree with what he'd say.

15:16 Anytime I would complain, he'd say, "Well, you don't have to like it.

15:20 You just got to understand it." I mean,

15:22 it it would be his like way of telling me,

15:25 you know, hey, you feel free to disagree.

15:28 This is what we're going to do.

15:30 Um and and so it it was such a good lesson.

15:36 Now I didn't appreciate it.

15:37 I can promise you that.

15:38 But it I now I have that the the [snorts]

15:41 hindsight of saying he he gave me the freedom to disagree.

15:46 And it took all the fight out of it.

15:48 It was I'm giving you a chance to connect with me.

15:51 I'm giving you a chance to understand where we're going.

15:54 And that's that's the key with connection is you can

15:57 I can still disagree with you and still connect with you.

16:00 I can still I can still be unhappy.

16:02 I can still be mad at you and still connect with you.

16:05 So if you need to come to a mutual decision on something, that's very different.

16:10 That is more of a coordinated dance

16:13 um where there's going to be an exit [music] from this.

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