Josh Shapiro on Trump, Iran War Chaos, Israel's Failure, the Economy, and 2028 Race

0:00 All right, everybody.

0:00 We've got an incredible guest today.

0:02 Governor Josh Shapiro is here.

0:05 Obviously governor of Pennsylvania.

0:06 He's got uh record-setting popularity in Pennsylvania right now.

0:11 60% approval, at least.

0:13 He's a moderate.

0:14 Uh he's focused on getting done, GSD.

0:17 He's tough on crime.

0:18 Ranked number one, according to my notes, on charging Medicaid fraud.

0:23 He's pro data center.

0:24 He's got a nuanced take on Israel.

0:26 And he's a baller, apparently.

0:28 Cuts the table.

0:31 Got him.

0:33 Very nice.

0:34 god.

0:35 There's your governor.

0:36 Look at those short shorts.

0:38 Holy cow.

0:39 Got him.

0:39 Wow.

0:40 It's the late '80s.

0:43 Man, based on the VHS tape, this looks like the '80s.

0:46 Yeah, that was 1990, I think.

0:50 Look at that, playing the point.

0:51 There you go.

0:52 Very nice.

0:53 Very nice.

0:53 All right.

0:54 That was back when That was back when people shot mid-range jumpers.

0:57 They don't do that anymore, man.

0:59 They don't do that.

0:59 They should.

1:01 All threes.

1:02 Yeah, I mean, we have a couple of players.

1:03 And And we were talking before the show started.

1:05 You're a obviously a big Philly fan, and I'm a big Knicks fan.

1:08 So, I will see you at the games.

1:10 We're We're on a collision course.

1:12 I, by the way, with all due respect,

1:13 and I hope we have a good conversation here.

1:15 I hope to never see you at the games.

1:17 Cuz if you're showing up in Philly with all your Knicks

1:19 crap on, I'm not going to be a happy guy.

1:22 Oh, look at a selfie courtside with my friend Dave,

1:26 who is one of the co-owners of the team, who's a mutual friend of ours.

1:30 Um who I think egged you on a little bit to come on the program here.

1:33 He did.

1:34 He should go on All In.

1:35 They have thoughtful conversations, and anxious to have one with you.

1:39 So, thanks for having me.

1:40 Yeah.

1:40 There's so much for us to talk about,

1:41 but I I thought I would start with your track record in Pennsylvania.

1:45 And the reason I wanted to start there is because there's

1:48 a bit of a collision course happening right now between you and Gavin.

1:51 Gavin's got what I would describe as a variable um tenure here in California.

1:56 Um I left California for Texas, cuz I just thought it was a bit of a disaster,

2:00 but you're doing great in your state and that's in the face of New York,

2:06 my hometown, New Jersey, Boston, like losing a lot of business leaders,

2:10 and you've been scoring, you know, some some big wins.

2:13 So, when you look at your track record,

2:15 maybe you could just educate the audience on what you've gotten

2:19 done and maybe in comparison to what's happening in those other states

2:25 with other Democratic leaders cuz you seem to be maybe the exception

2:30 to this rule that Democrats aren't getting it done on a business level.

2:33 Look, I'm proud of what we've done.

2:35 I'm not in comparison with Gavin or any other Democratic governor.

2:38 I'll just talk about what we've done here in Pennsylvania.

2:41 We are a pro-growth state.

2:44 We want businesses to come here and grow.

2:46 I'm proud of the fact that we've created more

2:48 jobs in all but two states in the entire country.

2:51 We've cut taxes seven different times to be more competitive,

2:55 cut taxes for small businesses, also for families trying to afford child care,

2:59 for seniors, for working Pennsylvanians.

3:02 We've taken our permitting process, that's the usually the the ticket you need,

3:07 say, to build your building, right?

3:09 If you're trying to build something here in Pennsylvania,

3:11 we were bottom five in the country.

3:13 I think we're now a national model, easily top five in terms of speed.

3:17 We've got a money-back guarantee on all of our permits.

3:20 If we don't get you your permit in time, we'll give you your money back.

3:23 And fun fact, we did issue 40 million permits during my time as governor.

3:28 We've only had to issue five refunds,

3:30 meaning only five of those permits were late.

3:33 We are now the only growing economy

3:36 in the northeastern part of the United States.

3:38 At the same time, we're investing in workforce development,

3:41 especially if you don't have a college degree,

3:44 tripling funding for Vo-Tech and apprenticeship programs,

3:47 and understanding the need to take the workforce we have today

3:51 and prepare them for um jobs here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

3:55 I'm proud that we've gotten unemployment rate below

3:58 the national rate consistently over the last 32 months.

4:02 I think it is really critical that every

4:05 kid born in Pennsylvania gets a great quality education,

4:08 that that kid has a safe street to walk

4:10 down to get to school or wherever else they're going,

4:12 and that they've got a job in the community that they love.

4:15 Those to me are the core foundational principles.

4:18 It's what we focus on every single day.

4:21 Our mantra, as you said at the top, is GSD, get done.

4:25 Those are the areas where we focus on getting done,

4:27 and I think we're putting a lot of points on the board

4:29 every single day that's having a meaningful difference in people's lives.

4:33 How are you getting that done?

4:35 Let just take the permitting as an example.

4:38 Why is it so dysfunctional in California?

4:40 You know, obviously I'm an investor in technology companies,

4:42 and we just saw red tape after red tape that on housing.

4:47 It's incredibly hard to build anything.

4:49 The NIMBYism, you know, if you cast a shadow,

4:51 nothing can be built, and then housing prices keep going up.

4:55 And you know, if you want to hire a nanny or a teacher, or you know,

4:59 if a firefighter moves in, they can't even

5:01 afford a home in the community that they're servicing.

5:04 So, how did you fix this?

5:07 And why can't other states not fix it?

5:11 I mean, look, I I can't speak to how it's done in California.

5:13 I'll just tell you in Pennsylvania,

5:15 the way we start the conversation is by recognizing permits

5:19 are critically important to economic development and to creating jobs, right?

5:24 If we, the government, can move at the speed of business,

5:27 if I can give you as a CEO predictability to know your business

5:32 is going to be open in 6 months instead of 3 years, right?

5:35 Because the permit took too long, then you're going to want to invest here.

5:38 So, we sort of start with the important idea that permits matter.

5:42 Second, when you come into our state government to get your permit,

5:46 let's just use building a building as an example, right?

5:49 We want to get to yes.

5:51 We still want to protect the environment and public health and public

5:53 safety and we do that, but we want to get to yes.

5:56 So, our attitude has shifted.

5:59 Third, we've got to have that money back guarantee

6:01 cuz that money back guarantee holds the bureaucracy accountable.

6:05 Now, I will tell you that some of this we've done administratively,

6:09 meaning I've signed executive orders and we've made those changes.

6:12 But, on other things we've worked with the legislature

6:14 to pass new laws to speed up our permitting.

6:17 And it hasn't always been easy.

6:18 Understand, I'm a Democrat as governor.

6:21 I've got a divided legislature.

6:23 I was the only governor for a while with a divided legislature,

6:26 now there's one other.

6:27 I've got a Senate led by Republicans by just two

6:30 seats and a house led by Democrats by just one seat,

6:33 but this is an area where I've been able to bring Democrats and Republicans

6:36 together in order to make progress

6:39 in terms of passing this this permitting reform.

6:42 And again, proof is in the pudding.

6:44 What we are seeing is that businesses are coming here and the economy's growing.

6:49 Let me give you one more example.

6:50 This may seem really small to you, but it's a big deal, okay?

6:54 When I talk about a permit, if you want to be a barber in Pennsylvania,

6:58 you need a permit or technically it's called a license, but I put it all in one

7:01 Yeah, some kind of certificate, yeah.

7:03 Right.

7:04 The day I took office, it took 20 days for a barber to get

7:09 their permit to be able to go out and cut hair.

7:12 Today you get it same day.

7:13 You get it within that day.

7:14 That may seem silly to you,

7:16 but but it but I just I called my barber, I asked him, he said,

7:18 "How many heads do you cut a day?" He said,

7:20 "About 10 a day at 20 bucks a pop." 200 bucks a day for two for 20 days.

7:27 That's real money.

7:28 That's thousands of dollars that we're putting into that barber's

7:32 pocket just because we got them their permit more quickly.

7:35 So, I know it may sound nerdy, it may sound wonky,

7:38 but whether you're building some big building that's going to house

7:41 hundreds of workers or thousands of people who are living there.

7:46 Or whether you're the local barber that everybody needs

7:48 to go to to get to get their haircut.

7:50 This stuff matters.

7:52 And the quicker you are,

7:53 the more jobs you create and the more money you put in people's pockets.

7:57 It also matters, I think,

7:58 on a philosophical basis of who is the government working for?

8:02 Themselves and their timelines or for the people who put them in office?

8:06 And I think that's the philosophy just at least watching it happen

8:10 in New York and California is the opposite of what you described.

8:13 There's no sense of urgency and there's

8:16 almost a situation where people believe it's intractable,

8:19 that they can't change it.

8:20 And so that's I think such an important

8:22 point is that you actually made it happen.

8:25 I think that's a great point.

8:27 I want to focus on what you just said there.

8:29 Um first off, I I start the conversation believing

8:32 the government can be a force for good in people's lives.

8:35 Second, that we got to figure out a way to get to yes.

8:38 Whether it's building the building or whether it's getting that mom

8:41 the support she needs for her kid with autism who needs support.

8:45 We got to figure out a way to get to yes and get them um that help.

8:49 And then you mentioned uh in your question the way people get I

8:52 I I don't recall if you used the word frustrated or or they feel,

8:56 you know, um that that government's sort of holding them back, right?

8:59 Not trying to work with them.

9:00 in a way, right?

9:01 It's just if you have that experience three or four times,

9:04 whether it's at the airport or getting your driver's

9:06 license or getting the hair cutting you know, certificate.

9:09 Like it's just oppressive over time.

9:11 You just feel like the government's working against you.

9:13 Yeah, and what does that what does that person feel

9:15 after they try and get their permit, they can't get it.

9:17 They try and open up their small business, it won't work.

9:20 They get frustrated.

9:21 By the way, they get pissed.

9:22 And then not only are they pissed at that agency

9:26 or that governor or they're pissed at, you know, that state government.

9:31 They also grow, and this is an important point,

9:33 a little more cynical about government

9:36 and a little bit more frustrated about the process.

9:40 And when that happens, I think that that creates more distrust in our system.

9:44 And it creates more opportunity for, I think, frankly,

9:48 dark voices on extremes to come in and take advantage of people.

9:52 I I I find that, you know,

9:54 if we get it done the right way, if we process things quickly,

9:57 if we get people to yes,

9:59 then maybe a byproduct of that is a little bit less cynicism in our system.

10:04 Yeah, and and the horseshoe theory that you're kind of referencing there,

10:07 these two extremes just taking over the conversation,

10:11 that's not what the majority of the country wants.

10:13 They They want to just live in a high-functioning society.

10:16 I was curious how you look at fraud, um, waste, fraud, and abuse.

10:22 My friend Elon, to drop a name, you know,

10:24 did this doge thing, was a little controversial,

10:27 but I think what we've seen is, hey,

10:29 20, 30% of every tax dollar collected is wasted.

10:34 Some of it's fraud, some of it's just incompetence.

10:37 It could be anything on that spectrum.

10:38 And this seems to be the Republican Party's rallying cry

10:42 to beat the Democrats going

10:43 into California and prosecuting people, Michigan, etc.

10:47 You have seem to have gotten ahead of this.

10:50 You've been doing this for years.

10:51 So, maybe you could explain your take on fighting fraud specifically,

10:55 health care, or in other areas.

10:58 Yeah.

10:58 Look Look, I think we've got to focus on rooting fraud out of the system.

11:02 Now, you and I may differ on, hey,

11:06 should we spend a dollar on that initiative or not?

11:08 And by the way, those are super healthy differences,

11:10 and we should argue that out.

11:11 We should debate that.

11:13 But where we should have no difference is,

11:15 if someone's stealing that dollar instead of going to its intended purpose,

11:20 we should be against that.

11:21 And And I am.

11:23 Prior to serving as governor and having the privilege of sitting here, uh,

11:26 in this office serving the good people of Pennsylvania,

11:29 I was the state's attorney general.

11:31 And you'll remember back during COVID, there were those PPP loans to help

11:35 our small businesses and other businesses stay afloat.

11:38 We'd probably agree like good idea, right?

11:40 We got to keep businesses afloat.

11:43 But during that time I went out and prosecuted

11:45 a whole bunch people for stealing that PPP money,

11:48 for not using it for its intended purposes.

11:51 Here as governor I've maintained a similar focus through my office

11:55 of Inspector General rooting out fraud through making sure by the way,

11:59 we're not fronting you money when you're

12:01 going out and providing say human services.

12:03 You have to submit for reimbursement and you've got

12:05 to make sure you prove that you did that work.

12:08 When we find that someone took advantage of the system,

12:11 we're referring them to prosecutors.

12:13 I'm proud of the fact that we've had more Medicaid

12:16 fraud prosecutions in Pennsylvania than I think any other state.

12:18 Maybe there was one other.

12:20 We're we're certainly toward the top of that list.

12:22 Proud of the fact that we've identified that, we've

12:24 sent it to prosecutors and and we've addressed it.

12:27 If we can address it administratively, we do.

12:29 If not, we understand that those things need to be prosecuted.

12:32 We should have a zero tolerance policy for that.

12:35 We should make sure that if we're going to utilize a hard-earned dollar

12:39 of a taxpayer for a purpose like

12:42 providing someone with health care that they need,

12:45 we got to make sure that that dollar makes its

12:46 way to that person so they get their health care.

12:49 And you know, our folks are working really hard on that in Pennsylvania.

12:52 So pro-business, uh less regulation, lowering taxes, eliminating fraud,

13:00 um and all of this is just getting done in the state.

13:05 And then you know, the next piece that in at least my community,

13:08 people who are creators of businesses, venture capitalist,

13:11 angel investors, founders, we pay our taxes,

13:15 pay a lot of taxes uh depending on which state you live in.

13:19 And then there's this movement paying more taxes in Pennsylvania, man.

13:22 Stop paying them elsewhere.

13:24 Yeah.

13:24 It well the and you know, we then get struck with this California law and a lot

13:30 of my friends have moved to Austin where I live now.

13:33 They just said suddenly, hey, we want to seize 5% of whatever you got.

13:36 You already paid your taxes,

13:37 you haven't paid capital gains on some of this equity you own in your company,

13:41 maybe it's paper wealth,

13:42 maybe it's your company went public now and you could sell

13:44 some of it but you might crater the stock if you do.

13:47 And Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and California all trying to seize assets.

13:54 And this has really hit the creator the business creators

13:59 in a in a really offensive way to the point at which they're moving.

14:04 We lost California lost Sergey,

14:07 Travis from Uber just fleeing fleeing en masse in the last 12 months.

14:13 Do you believe in these wealth taxes and do you

14:15 believe in seizing people's assets on gains they've never received?

14:20 It's a It seems to be getting momentum.

14:23 I mean, I'll just say we've cut taxes seven times in Pennsylvania.

14:27 We've got one of the lowest income taxes in the entire country.

14:30 It's why I'm joking with you you should come to Pennsylvania and locate here.

14:35 And And look, I mean,

14:36 that kind of tax that you're describing is not something we have here.

14:40 It's certainly not something on on my agenda.

14:43 I do think people need to pay their fair share.

14:45 I think you'd agree with that.

14:46 We need to make sure that we are easing the burden

14:49 on those who are working and who are at the lowest,

14:52 you know, sort of economic point on the scale.

14:55 And we got to make sure that folks at the top are

14:56 paying their their fair share in order to to sustain our society.

15:01 And I think we've struck a really good balance here in Pennsylvania.

15:05 And I think our growth numbers bear that out.

15:08 I think seeing more people coming to the state bears that out.

15:12 And I think there's an important stat,

15:13 one of the things you you cited in those entrepreneurs

15:17 is as you were going through your question is you know,

15:20 these are people kind of started with a dream,

15:22 with an idea that, you know, someone might have looked at and said, "Geez,

15:26 I I don't know about that." But they stuck

15:27 with it and and they built up their companies.

15:30 We see here in Pennsylvania, particularly when it comes to life sciences, right?

15:35 We're seeing people plant a flag here in Pennsylvania,

15:39 start with an idea that others might think, "Boy,

15:41 I I don't know about that." But then

15:43 because of our tax environment in Pennsylvania,

15:46 because of our pro-growth approach in Pennsylvania,

15:49 we're seeing more of those small businesses,

15:51 more of those small companies, especially in life sciences,

15:54 survive that sort of valley where a lot of those companies

15:58 go out of business and sustain themselves here because again,

16:01 I think we're showing that we're pro-growth,

16:04 we've got a smart tax environment for them.

16:06 And by the way, after we invest in them, after we give them a shot,

16:10 and after they do well,

16:11 we expect them to pay their fair share back to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

16:14 And I think that's that's the approach we've taken and it's working.

16:18 Yeah, and so if you're not in favor of a wealth tax,

16:21 what would you do to deal with maybe this disparity in wealth that we're seeing?

16:28 There was just some statistics that came out the other day,

16:31 I'm sure you saw them.

16:32 The upper middle class has just been surging, middle class going down a bit,

16:37 and people in the lower wrongs going down as well.

16:40 So, people may feel like they're not making enough money,

16:43 but in reality what's happening is people feel

16:46 other people have made a tremendous amount of money,

16:48 which is true because of equity holdings

16:51 are growing much better than salaries ever will,

16:53 and only 40% only 50% of the country

16:57 really participates in a meaningful way in equities.

16:59 The other 40-50% don't have any exposure to that.

17:03 So, how would you deal with somebody making,

17:07 you know, a hundred billion dollars, five hundred billion dollars,

17:09 a trillion dollars, and never selling their equity,

17:12 or maybe not selling it for 20 years.

17:14 How do you think about that?

17:15 make sure three points, of Pennsylvania point and a couple broader points.

17:19 One, you cannot have a national economy

17:22 that works if it's only working for the 1%.

17:25 And you pointed out in your question

17:27 the wage disparity and the disparity of income.

17:30 You have to make sure that there is

17:32 opportunity for those at all different income levels.

17:35 And look, as we sit here today,

17:37 if you're making a million dollars versus $50,000, you make a million dollars,

17:42 you're going to be able to buy some

17:43 stuff that someone at $50,000 can't buy, right?

17:46 We sort of understand that, but you got to have

17:49 opportunity and you've got to have a level playing field.

17:51 You got to have a fair shot and you got

17:53 to have a tax system that works in a fair way.

17:57 So, that's sort of point one.

17:58 Point two is here in Pennsylvania,

18:00 we've tried to address some of that economic disparity

18:03 by passing the first ever working Pennsylvanians tax credit,

18:07 sort of a state-side earned income tax credit.

18:10 So, what we're saying is if you're working,

18:12 if you're going out and busting your hump,

18:14 we're going to put some money back in your pocket.

18:16 About 940,000, almost a million Pennsylvanians are going to qualify

18:20 for a little over 800 bucks back in their pockets.

18:23 So, that's going to help not only today with rising

18:26 costs due to a lot of these federal policies,

18:29 but it's going to put money back in people's pockets, allow them to make,

18:32 you know, the the the investments they need to make in their everyday lives.

18:35 Here's the third point.

18:37 What I would not do, cuz you asked what I would do,

18:39 what I would not do is what President Trump did at the federal level with an aid

18:44 and assist from a whole bunch of sycophants

18:46 in Congress by passing that budget bill,

18:49 or the beautiful budget bill, or whatever the hell they call it.

18:52 In effect, what they did was they gave a tax

18:55 cut for those who simply do not need it, right?

18:59 And by the way, you know,

19:00 in the palace of truth and justice, you talk to those folks.

19:03 They know that they didn't need that tax cut.

19:06 And what happens as a result of that is I've

19:09 got 500,000 Pennsylvanians who are going to lose their health care.

19:16 I've got 120,000 who have already lost their health care.

19:19 About another 320,000 or so will likely lose Medicaid next year.

19:24 I've got 26 rural hospitals that are likely

19:28 to shutter because these are rural hospitals that are working

19:31 at an operating deficit and they're relying so much

19:34 on Medicaid which has been slashed by the federal government.

19:37 So, the idea that Donald Trump thought it was smart

19:40 economic policy to give a tax cut to those who

19:43 don't need it and pay for it with those who

19:45 are struggling where and create even greater economic disparities.

19:50 That is going to hold back our entire economy.

19:53 Just take those 500,000 people who aren't going to have health care.

19:55 You're paying for that and I'm paying for that with our private insurance.

20:00 So, what Donald Trump has done is

20:01 shifted that burden onto those who are struggling, making it harder for them,

20:07 adding additional cost to the middle class

20:10 and I think that that is that that lacks

20:13 um frankly it's just dumb economic policy and I think it's going to set us back.

20:17 Here we are.

20:18 Politics is on the table.

20:19 Incredible track record you have but let's dive into the Democratic Party.

20:23 Uh I'm an independent but grew up Irish

20:25 Catholic in Brooklyn so grew up a Democrat.

20:28 Probably have voted you know,

20:30 60/40 Democrat to Republican but always for a moderate,

20:34 somebody who can get stuff done.

20:35 That's why I find you quite appealing.

20:37 But let's talk about the Democratic Party and the shellacking they got

20:41 in the last election and specifically what really troubled me Biden didn't

20:47 look like he was all there and uh I think we've all

20:50 come to some consensus that he probably should have dropped out earlier.

20:54 But what was really disheartening to me was

20:56 that they didn't do the speed run primary.

20:57 They didn't do you know, a capsule primary over that July-August period and gave

21:03 you a shot and other people a shot,

21:05 Pritzker, Buttigieg, whoever to to compete for the nomination.

21:10 Was that a huge mistake for the Democratic Party?

21:13 And then when you look back on it,

21:15 do you think that might have cost you all the election?

21:17 Well, look, I mean, I actually wrote about

21:19 this in in the book I I recently published where,

21:22 you know, it it became clear to me that, um,

21:26 you know, Joe Biden seeking another term was probably not

21:29 in the best interest of the party or or the country.

21:31 And I spoke to him directly about that and and bluntly about that.

21:35 Once he made the decision to drop out

21:37 with a hundred and whatever days to go, um, you know,

21:40 there there were not many opportunities, I think,

21:43 to have the kind of primary process that you're talking about.

21:47 I think it is important to look forward, right?

21:49 And not look backwards.

21:50 And you said in the last election Democrats took a shellacking.

21:53 Actually, if you look at 2025, it was the opposite.

21:56 I mean, the president's party, the Republican Party, got beat in New Jersey,

21:59 got beat in Virginia,

22:00 got beat here in Pennsylvania where we won three state Supreme Court seats.

22:04 So, obviously, there's a pendulum in in American

22:08 politics and it's clearly, uh, swinging back.

22:11 I think what's important is is that we look forward and yeah,

22:15 I think it's also really important for our party to have for my party

22:18 to have a real debate and to have a real discussion about ideas.

22:22 What are we for?

22:23 And what are we willing to fight for?

22:25 And I realize that process may at times look a little messy.

22:28 I realize and I mean this with the utmost respect,

22:30 it gives folks like you on a podcast

22:32 or on a show the ability to sort of pick apart, maybe try and, you know,

22:36 sort of parse words or point one

22:39 Democrat at another and try and create conflict.

22:41 But I would just say that overall, having this debate and having

22:45 these issues being raised and having disagreements,

22:48 that's healthy for our party and ultimately,

22:51 I think our party's poised to take back

22:53 power and that will make us better at governing.

22:55 To me, the whole purpose of running

22:57 in an election is getting the chance to govern, not just winning the election.

23:01 And so, having these debates right now puts us

23:04 in a better position when we win those elections.

23:07 And I'm running for re-election right now in Pennsylvania.

23:09 Going to work my ass off to win another term

23:11 and earn the support of the people of Pennsylvania again.

23:14 And I want to continue to deliver,

23:15 continue to um you know, focus on these issues that matter most.

23:19 And having that debate, I think is really healthy.

23:21 I understand looking forward is most important,

23:23 but I got I got to go one more time in the rearview mirror here,

23:26 which is Kamala Harris was picked because Biden had put out a criteria, "Hey,

23:31 I want to have a woman of color

23:33 as my vice president." He was very explicit about that.

23:35 She could be qualified, unqualified, you know, moderately qualified.

23:40 But then when she went out to pick her VP, everybody was saying, "Hey,

23:44 Josh Shapiro should be really in that running." And she didn't pick you

23:47 specifically cuz she didn't think she could win with the Jewish vice president.

23:51 Yeah, So, I don't respectfully I I got to push back on that.

23:54 And again, I I've been very very open about this.

23:57 Yeah.

23:57 Yeah, and and I respectfully I'm not looking to, you know,

24:00 be argumentative with you.

24:01 But I I um yeah.

24:02 I was very very detailed and and and very

24:06 specific in my book about this process.

24:09 And I was very grateful to the vice president for being considered.

24:13 And grateful to her for the candid dialogue we had.

24:16 And about 48 hours before she picked Tim Walz,

24:18 I pulled out and made clear that that was

24:20 not something I was interested in doing.

24:22 I thought I could serve the good people of Pennsylvania um and and do

24:26 my best serving here as governor in a job that I absolutely love.

24:31 So, this wasn't about her not picking me because of my faith.

24:34 Uh this was about me um in the end not being interested in in that job.

24:38 Really?

24:40 Sincerely, yes?

24:41 Uh cuz it did seem like you wanted to to be considered for that VP position.

24:46 I called Sunday evening after she and I met and had a really

24:49 candid conversation uh to inform her that I did not want to be considered.

24:53 I thought she had some really good people to choose from.

24:56 All right, so let's move forward then looking at winning.

24:58 You're going to run for governor again.

25:00 Assume that's going to be a shoe-in.

25:03 You know, you got to do the work, but it's pretty clear you're going to win.

25:06 your your confidence there, my man.

25:08 Yeah, no, it's it's clear.

25:09 But let's talk a little bit about if you were to run for president,

25:12 which people seem to think you've got a really good shot.

25:16 But you're below maybe national recognition right now.

25:21 You're a little bit far behind.

25:23 Gavin has come out, "Hey, I'm running.

25:24 I'm running.

25:25 Here I am." He's obviously in the pole position for now.

25:28 I want to understand the Democratic Party

25:31 and how they should proceed because just

25:34 like the right seem to separate and you had this MAGA coalition and you had,

25:39 you know, the traditional Republicans who were just aghast

25:42 at Trump and his style and his behavior, etc.

25:46 Now that seems to have fractured again.

25:48 You have America first, America only.

25:51 All the supporters who were supporting Trump now have come

25:56 out vocally against him because of the war in Iran.

25:58 And then you have on your side the socialist Democrat movement,

26:02 which I think a lot of moderates are like, "Well, that's confusing.

26:05 We don't want to have more Mondamis." And that doesn't

26:09 seem super appealing to a lot of moderates.

26:11 And the moderates are the ones who flipped

26:12 this election and they went the last election,

26:14 they went with Trump largely as opposed to going with Kamala.

26:18 So handicap for me what has to happen in the Democratic Party to win in 2028?

26:24 I understand what you're asking and I I will answer your question.

26:27 I don't think anyone should be looking past these midterms.

26:31 And while I appreciate the confidence you you have in me

26:34 and and and maybe in the the broader dynamics here,

26:37 I think we need to have a national referendum

26:39 in these midterms on what people see happening in Washington, D.C.

26:44 The the chaos and the corruption that exist there.

26:47 I think people need to show up in record numbers and vote their concerns.

26:51 Since I'm not looking past the midterms,

26:54 I do think it is important that we acknowledge Donald

26:58 Trump has injected chaos and corruption into everything he touched.

27:05 And I think it's important for me, for other Democratic leaders in this country,

27:10 to be able to show what calm,

27:13 competent governance can actually deliver for people.

27:16 That's what I'm going to be talking

27:18 about in these midterms as I seek re-election.

27:21 I think it is important to paint an alternative

27:23 picture to the chaos Donald Trump has created.

27:26 One where you can actually grow the economy.

27:29 You can make our communities safer.

27:30 We didn't talk about this yet, but we've hired 2,000 more police officers,

27:34 invested in community violence prevention, and violent crime is down 12%.

27:39 Fatal gun violence is down 42% in our Commonwealth.

27:42 Um we've invested in public education,

27:45 and by the way, scores are up, truancy is down.

27:49 Um we're moving up on the list.

27:50 We're about 10th um according to Consumer

27:52 Affairs in the quality of public education.

27:55 I think we've got to show that there is an alternative to Donald Trump's chaos,

28:00 to his cruelty, to his corruption.

28:02 And you're seeing that um I think certainly in my state,

28:05 I think you're seeing it in other states as well.

28:07 And we need to paint that alternative picture.

28:09 So 2026 is certainly going to be a referendum

28:12 on the first 2 years of this presidency,

28:15 which was extremely popular for the first 9 months or so.

28:19 People felt really good about the economy.

28:21 Some people.

28:22 And that Well, I think the his polling was great.

28:26 But there was this tinge, I think it's pretty accurate to say,

28:29 the tariffs felt like those were chaotic.

28:33 Yeah.

28:33 Then you get the ice situation.

28:35 That feels very chaotic.

28:36 Then you go to this war with Iran, and that feels like a peak chaotic moment

28:41 that we're in here in week six of this.

28:43 So it's certainly going to be a referendum on Trump,

28:46 and it feels like all the Democrats have to do is sit back and say like,

28:50 "Look, is this what you want?

28:52 Yeah, gas prices up,

28:53 inflation." But you're saying they have to paint another picture.

28:56 Paint that picture for me.

28:57 What is that picture?

28:59 I think on both sides of what you just said,

29:01 Donald Trump chose to push the tariff button, right?

29:05 And as a result, here in Pennsylvania,

29:07 what we're seeing is coffee prices are up 30%.

29:11 Beef is up 19%.

29:13 OJ, orange juice is up 9%.

29:15 The fertilizers my farmers rely on here in Pennsylvania up 36%.

29:20 So we're seeing whether you're a farmer, whether you're, you know,

29:23 a dad just trying to cook dinner for his kids, whatever the case may be,

29:26 everything costs more because of the the recklessness and the chaotic

29:32 approach Donald Trump's taking our economy with these tariffs.

29:35 Obviously, this war has spiked gas prices.

29:38 Up today about 415, 416 here in Pennsylvania, similar across the country.

29:44 Probably years before those gas prices come down even if the war,

29:48 you know, hopefully ends, you know, very very soon.

29:52 And so I think it is important, yes,

29:54 to point that out the way Donald Trump's policies have hurt the American people,

29:59 have hurt our farmers, have hurt our small businesses.

30:03 The point I was making a moment ago is I think that's part of the conversation.

30:07 The other part of the conversation is, "Okay,

30:09 well what are you doing to make people's lives better?"

30:11 so what what should the top three things be?

30:13 Like if you were running the Democratic Party and you

30:15 and everybody got in a room and said, "You know what,

30:16 we really are going to take winning seriously,

30:19 not get into this like purity test for everybody in the party and you know,

30:24 everybody's got to be perfect and Joe Rogan's not good

30:28 enough to go on air with because he's a lifelong Democrat,

30:32 but he said something about COVID we don't agree with.

30:34 Therefore, he's out of the party.

30:35 Elon Musk is a little bit weird on the Well, but but the Democrats did.

30:39 And then oh, Elon Musk waited hours to and and had Obama at SpaceX and then

30:44 all of a sudden he can't come to the White House for the EV Summit,

30:47 the category he created.

30:48 Like it's pretty obvious the Democratic Party had some real

30:51 dysfunction in there in terms of building a bigger tent.

30:55 And I can tell you I have never felt more courted in my life than

31:00 the Republican Party trying to get me to be part of the the Trump movement,

31:05 which I demurred and declined.

31:07 It wasn't my style.

31:08 But they are trying to build the biggest tent possible.

31:12 They're like, "Oh, you agree with 14% of what we do?

31:15 You're in." Okay.

31:17 Yeah, so walk me through what the top thing bit.

31:19 Let's Let's dissect.

31:21 First off, you attributed a number of things to Democrats that I didn't say.

31:24 So we're you're here interviewing me, so let's focus on the things I say.

31:29 Number two, they went and they courted you and you demurred,

31:33 but by the way, even had you not demurred,

31:36 had you signed up, I don't know that your life would

31:38 be better off after a year and a half of Trump's policies.

31:42 What I am for here in Pennsylvania, the ultimate swing state,

31:46 the toughest state to win in, an incredibly tough

31:49 state to govern in, particularly with a divided legislature,

31:53 I'm for investing in public education, giving every child of God an opportunity.

31:57 I'm for safe communities and we're building that here

32:00 and we're reducing crime in all of our communities.

32:03 I'm for a pro-growth economy where we generate more energy,

32:07 we generate more jobs, where we create more opportunities,

32:10 particularly in our rural communities and forgotten

32:13 communities that have been too often left behind.

32:15 And here's the fourth thing I'm for, I am for freedom.

32:18 And I'll tell you what,

32:19 this president represents a party that used to be known as the party

32:24 of freedom and now they have turned their backs on that.

32:27 They want to tell my kids what books they're allowed to read,

32:30 they want to tell women what medicines they can

32:32 take and what they can do with their bodies,

32:34 they want to control the way I raise my child.

32:38 They want to say, uh, you know, every day that, yeah, you can vote,

32:42 but we're going to set the rules and try and rig

32:45 them in a way where you're not going to be successful.

32:47 They are not the party of freedom.

32:49 And I think the Democratic Party has

32:51 an opportunity to be the party of education,

32:54 safety, economic opportunity, and freedom.

32:56 That's what we're doing here in Pennsylvania,

32:58 and that's what I'm going to continue to put forth.

33:01 I think it's a great platform.

33:02 I would add to it housing.

33:04 The thing I hear about from young people all the time is that, you know,

33:06 just I'll never be able to afford a house.

33:09 The American dream's a bit of a scam, and college is overpriced.

33:12 So, how do you think about housing?

33:15 And And what do you Is that an issue in in your state?

33:18 Or talk about housing.

33:19 Let's also talk about college, cuz you raised both of them in your question.

33:23 And And look, I mean, that has disinfected, by the way,

33:26 just like two generations who are like, you guys tricked us on housing.

33:29 You told us we'd be able to get home, and you won't sell your home, boomers.

33:33 And And you told us we could always make more than our college education cost,

33:37 and that was a lie, too.

33:38 Yeah.

33:39 When I was talking about economic opportunity, it's somewhat shorthand,

33:42 if you will, for also being able to afford that community.

33:46 Affording that community can be healthcare.

33:47 It can be housing, right?

33:49 But let's talk about housing.

33:50 Here in Pennsylvania, I've asked the legislature for a $1 billion fund to be

33:55 able to build more housing in Pennsylvania and repair existing housing.

34:00 50% of my housing was built prior to 1950.

34:04 You can invest a few thousand bucks in a new boiler, a new roof,

34:07 some new windows, actually keep people in their homes,

34:09 and not have to build new homes.

34:11 We also have to eliminate, or damn near eliminate,

34:15 the red tape that exists when it comes to building housing.

34:19 We got to be able to build this faster.

34:20 And so, I put forth a regulatory reform plan to be able to build more housing.

34:26 I think that is, um, really, really crucial.

34:28 Let's talk about college for a minute.

34:30 The first day I was governor, the first executive order I signed was to do away

34:36 with the college degree requirement to work for state government.

34:40 We have 80,000 employees,

34:42 damn near all now you do not have to have a college degree other

34:45 than say the doctors and lawyers

34:47 and people like that who require advanced degrees.

34:49 So now 60% 60 60% of all of our hires

34:54 in state government don't have a college degree.

34:57 We followed up on that by tripling our funding

34:59 for Vo-Tech and CTE in our high schools,

35:02 our dramatically increasing our funding for apprenticeship programs.

35:07 62% of my adult population here in Pennsylvania do not have a college degree.

35:13 So we need to make sure we're investing in them so that they have opportunities.

35:17 You want to go learn to be a welder?

35:18 You're going to make six figures working in a shipyard in South Philadelphia.

35:23 You want to go and you want to work on HVAC systems?

35:26 You're going to work in some of our most complex life

35:30 sciences construction jobs and you're going to make six figures doing that.

35:35 So for us, we fundamentally believe that you've

35:38 got many pathways to opportunity here in Pennsylvania.

35:41 For some, it's going to college, great.

35:43 And for others, if you choose not to go to college, that's also great.

35:47 We're going to make sure that we pave

35:48 the way for you and give you that opportunity.

35:51 Yeah, the generation two about movement is well upon us.

35:54 People are starting to figure out going in debt 100,

35:57 200K versus getting a plumber job, carpenter job, HVAC,

36:01 whatever for six figures out of the gate is a much better opportunity.

36:05 Yeah, and to be clear, I'm not on people that go to college.

36:08 I went to college.

36:09 I presume you went to go to college.

36:11 But for too long, by the way, politicians in both parties defined success

36:16 exclusively around the idea of you having

36:20 to have a college degree and then set up arbitrary barriers to entry.

36:24 Hey, if you don't have a college degree, you can't apply here.

36:26 What about the skills that you developed in the military?

36:29 What about the skills you developed at a trade school

36:31 or the skills that you developed working in the private sector?

36:34 Those skills should matter, and now they do in Pennsylvania.

36:38 And we're no longer taking an elitist approach that shuts

36:42 people out just because they don't have a college degree.

36:44 We're giving them the keys to opportunity,

36:48 and we're giving them opportunities to pursue more success here in Pennsylvania.

36:51 Does the socialist democratic movement worry you, Mondami and the crew?

36:58 And how do you think about that in terms of the party dynamics?

37:03 I mean, remember the question you asked me out

37:04 of three or four questions ago about you said,

37:06 "Well, yeah, I only agree with 14% of what you agree with." You know,

37:10 come join the party.

37:11 Look, my view is that we got to have a big tent.

37:14 And my view is that we've got to have a real debate around different ideas.

37:18 And just because I might not agree with you on these three things,

37:21 I might agree with you on something else.

37:23 Listen, Yeah.

37:24 I'm sitting behind my desk here in the governor's office.

37:26 This is where I negotiate bills and budgets and other things.

37:30 If I threw everybody out of my office that I didn't agree with 100% of the time,

37:34 we'd never get anything done.

37:36 When I sit down across the table from a Republican lawmaker, say,

37:39 "What are the 10 things you want to accomplish?"

37:41 I tell him the 10 things I want to accomplish.

37:43 And you know what, we're not going to agree on all 10,

37:45 but if we agree on three or four, I'd rather focus on those three or four things

37:49 where we can find common ground than the five,

37:51 six, seven things where we're just going to disagree.

37:54 And so, I think if you want to make progress,

37:56 you got to figure out how to create, you know, majorities,

37:59 whether it's a majority in the legislature to get a bill to my desk,

38:02 a majority come election time to win an election.

38:05 You got to find ways to bring people together and find

38:08 common ground and not just focus exclusively on our differences.

38:12 What's your take on what's going on in Congress,

38:14 Senate in terms of Trump and getting alignment there?

38:18 Because hey, when you go to war or you do tariffs,

38:22 um this was something we had a consultation

38:24 between these different branches of our government.

38:27 And we had other presidents on the Democrats side etc.

38:30 You know, say, "Hey, we're going to just get rid of student loan.

38:32 I'm doing an executive order." Curious your take

38:35 on the balance of our of our different branches of government and the lack

38:40 of collaboration because this is particularly disturbing.

38:43 We're both Gen Xers.

38:44 We grew up watching the Democrats and the Republicans argue,

38:48 but then they all got together, had lunch and they negotiated.

38:51 Where is that esprit de corps of everybody rowing in the same

38:55 direction uh for all Americans versus this toxic you know,

39:00 we're we're just going to block each other

39:02 at and do character assassination at every single turn.

39:06 It's it's the most polarized of our lifetimes for sure.

39:09 think the Congress of the United States um the leadership

39:13 there I mean they're frankly kind of sad, pathetic people.

39:17 And let me explain why, right?

39:20 You put um uh what's his name?

39:22 Johnson in as a speaker and he's effectively

39:26 a rubber stamp for anything Donald Trump wants.

39:29 And by the way, whether you agree with Trump or not,

39:31 I think you can agree that you'd like your member of Congress to at least

39:36 meet the burdens that they have on them

39:38 in the Constitution of the United States, which is to be a check,

39:42 which is to be a a separate branch of government

39:46 and a branch of government that has meaningful responsibilities here.

39:51 When the Congress of the United States walks away from their responsibilities,

39:54 whether on tariffs or whether on declaring war

39:57 and ultimately just kind of empower the president.

40:01 Again, agree or disagree.

40:02 Obviously, I have profound disagreements from the president on on those things.

40:06 Then what what you've really done is you've limited um

40:10 the power of the Congress and what you've really done

40:13 is you've seen a whole bunch people that put Donald

40:15 Trump before the oath of office they take to the Constitution.

40:19 And I think that's just pathetic.

40:21 By the way, why these people work so hard to get to Congress,

40:26 to move up in leadership, to do all the things they got to do,

40:29 and then give away their power to Donald Trump?

40:32 That's pathetic and it's weak.

40:34 And I think our country is suffering as a result of it.

40:38 Look, I'm here in Pennsylvania where where it all began 250 years ago.

40:43 And the brilliance of our founders um was that they

40:47 left so much of the work to the next

40:51 generation and the generation after that to pick

40:54 up the baton and continue to perfect our union.

40:58 Our founders though always contemplated two things.

41:03 One, that there would be honorable people in office.

41:07 And two, that the people in office would exercise

41:11 their power and be a check on one another.

41:15 And in some cases slow things down to make sure that bad things didn't occur.

41:20 Bad things couldn't get through the process.

41:23 I think what Americans are confronting now is a realization that we don't

41:27 really have all honorable people in positions

41:31 of authority in the federal government.

41:33 And that that checks and balance system

41:35 that was constructed here in Pennsylvania is

41:38 not standing the test of time because

41:41 you've got these profoundly and pathetically weak

41:44 people like Johnson and others who just simply give away their power to folks

41:50 who are corrupt and to folks who are not acting in an honorable way.

41:54 You keep up bringing up that corruption.

41:56 Explain to me what corrupt things you

41:59 know that the Trump administration has done.

42:01 I think to me there has been an extraordinary amount of self-dealing.

42:05 There there has been um a good bit of family

42:09 members doing quite well in this uh in this environment.

42:14 I think you're seeing more and more people

42:16 who have the president's ear being able to lobby

42:19 him at his swim club to get a pardon

42:21 for someone that frankly doesn't deserve a pardon.

42:24 I mean, I think the list goes on and on and on, but those are some

42:27 examples that I think the American people see

42:31 with their own eyes taking a you know, a billion-dollar jet from the Qataris

42:35 and thinking there's nothing attached to that, right?

42:38 I think that there's just a lot of that that moves so fast

42:42 that the American people are having a hard time keeping up with it,

42:45 but there will be a reckoning on this one.

42:48 Yeah, I so on the pardons I'm strongly agreeing.

42:52 Feels like the pardon power is super abused.

42:54 Is is there a path to refine that tool cuz it relies on norms, right?

43:00 And ever since Bill Clinton, you know, did some, you know,

43:04 friends and then obviously Biden did his son

43:07 and then Trump's doing his, you know, folks.

43:11 It feels like now this is just a get-out-of-jail card.

43:13 You come into an administration and then everybody from Fauci to you know,

43:19 Hunter Biden and everybody else is just going to get a pardon on the way out.

43:23 How would you reshape that tool?

43:25 Well, let let's be clear and I I don't think you're suggesting

43:27 this, but and I was critical of Joe Biden when he pardoned his son, right?

43:32 I was critical of him publicly.

43:34 What we are seeing under Donald Trump, you have to admit,

43:37 is next level when it comes to the abuse.

43:40 it's yes, it's in the first year.

43:41 It's not on the last day even.

43:42 It's like an ongoing tool here.

43:45 We had CZ who was a a crypto person who

43:48 got pardoned and Trump didn't even know who he was.

43:51 He was just like, "Ah, I heard he's a good guy." I mean,

43:54 I will tell I sit at this desk here and I sign pardons and clemencies.

44:00 And I take that responsibility so seriously.

44:03 And and I agonize over these decisions.

44:07 And and I pray that I get these decisions right.

44:11 And I believe I have.

44:12 And I'm transparent about why I viewed someone

44:16 as worthy to get a clemency and also worthy of not getting one or not worthy

44:20 I should say but but also not earning one.

44:24 And these are tough tough decisions.

44:27 Goes back to what I said a moment ago.

44:29 Our founders when they vested that kind of authority in an executive

44:34 didn't necessarily do something wrong by giving the executive that power.

44:37 But they were leaning on the assumption that the executive would be honorable.

44:42 That the executive would would would do this with morality and real scruples

44:47 in mind and and I think what we're seeing with the president is if

44:51 you sidle up to him at his swim club you donate a certain

44:54 amount of money maybe or you have his ear for some other social reason,

44:58 you can usually get him to give a pardon to someone who's important to you.

45:02 Yeah, the the pardons definitely are super troubling.

45:05 How do you deal with the family members and the kids enriching themselves?

45:10 Obviously nothing has been um done by a court

45:15 or an investigation into Trump's kids at this point.

45:19 Um so we just want to be clear about that.

45:20 You know, we had uh Hunter Biden getting a ridiculous million-dollar board seat.

45:25 I've never seen anybody get paid a million dollars to be on a board.

45:27 That was obviously corrupt in some way or somebody trying to curry favor.

45:31 Doesn't mean the president Biden was but definitely was corruption there.

45:36 How do you deal with kids of and and this has

45:39 been going on for a while um these kind of allegations.

45:43 If we if we can't rely on honor and norms

45:46 is there another proposal here that the kids of you know,

45:50 people in office can't make money.

45:51 Your kids can't make money.

45:53 If I was running for office, my kids couldn't make money in the free market.

45:56 How do you is there any kind of solution you can think of?

45:59 I think it is important you you cited Hunter Biden.

46:02 They went through a legal process.

46:03 There was an investigation by the Department of Justice.

46:06 I think there has to be a real look, I say this as a former prosecutor,

46:10 a real look at some of this stuff and follow the evidence, follow the law.

46:13 And if charges are warranted, bring them in.

46:15 By the way, if charges are not warranted, don't bring them.

46:18 Do not use the the rule of law as a tool to go against,

46:23 you know, political opponents in in any way.

46:25 But I think what you've got to have

46:27 here are people who are operating with real morality.

46:32 And you do have to figure out a way to operate within the norms again.

46:35 I'm unwilling to accept that that is gone.

46:38 It may be temporarily suspended under Donald Trump,

46:41 but I'm hopeful that we can find our way back to that.

46:43 Let me be clear about something else here.

46:45 That finding our way back to that is a bipartisan exercise.

46:50 It's going to require Republicans and Democrats and independents all demanding,

46:55 when they go to the ballot box,

46:57 that we want to elevate people who are ethical, people who are honest,

47:01 people who are focused on doing their jobs with integrity.

47:05 And then when those people are in office,

47:07 rewarded with the votes of the public and in these positions

47:10 of public trust to hold them accountable as well.

47:13 And you believe that can can happen in a post-Trump world?

47:15 I do.

47:16 I do.

47:16 I strongly agree.

47:18 Hey, it's a year since your home was

47:21 firebombed by an insane person who was anti-Semitic.

47:27 Your faith comes up over and over again.

47:29 I personally think people are a little obsessed with it,

47:33 but here we are and the Democratic Party's been

47:35 split apart as well over this support of Israel issue.

47:39 You have a very nuanced position.

47:41 Number one, how are you dealing with that personally, the anti-Semitism,

47:44 which to me as somebody who grew up in Brooklyn

47:47 with lots of Jewish friends and all kinds of different people,

47:50 just insane to think that Jewish students are

47:52 being or any particular group of students being chased

47:55 by the other students at Columbia University because

47:57 they're Jewish and this chaoticness um is just heartbreaking,

48:01 but as a Jewish person and literally experiencing it firsthand,

48:06 I mean, how are you doing with that?

48:08 Yeah, I appreciate it.

48:09 Look, we we should separate this and have two conversations.

48:13 One about Israel and one about anti-Semitism because

48:15 you kind of blurred both in that question.

48:17 Let's focus first on anti-Semitism.

48:19 I have been very outspoken about those who are engaging in anti-Semitism,

48:24 peddling words that are anti-Semitic.

48:27 And importantly, I've been critical of people

48:29 on the political left and on the political right.

48:32 And I think anti-Semitism is a problem in our society and is

48:35 a problem on the left and it is a problem on the right.

48:39 And I think it is important that we call it out.

48:41 We call it out whether we're in an interview, not Yeah.

48:44 accusing you by any A conversation, yeah.

48:46 Call it out when um you know, on on social media.

48:50 And then we just call it out in our communities,

48:52 in our daily lives where we see it.

48:55 On that, there should be no nuance.

48:57 We should be able to come together,

48:58 people who are Jewish, people who are Christian, Muslim,

49:00 and all agree that hatred, bigotry in any form directed at a Jew,

49:06 a Muslim, Christian, anyone, it has no place.

49:08 And by the way, it makes us all less safe.

49:12 And so we have to focus on speaking out against that.

49:16 No nuance on that.

49:17 Yeah.

49:17 On the issue of Israel, the Middle East,

49:19 and the war in Iran, and Gaza, there's a lot of nuance there.

49:22 I'm happy to answer your questions on that.

49:24 But I think on the issue of anti-Semitism,

49:26 we have got to be in a place where we universally condemn it.

49:30 And I think what you're seeing from some folks

49:32 on the right and some folks on the left is they'll only call it out if it's said

49:38 by a political opponent or someone they disagree with.

49:41 And I frankly respect people on the right like Ted

49:44 Cruz who have called it out within the Republican Party.

49:48 I've tried to call it out when it rears its ugly head in my party,

49:52 it is important that it be universally condemned.

49:56 So easy to do.

49:57 Let's tackle the uh issue of Israel and I would say,

50:02 yeah, every Jewish person, Jewish-American person who I know,

50:06 when I ask them about this issue, obviously, incredible tragedy October 7th,

50:11 going and collecting the hostages seems like a reasonable thing to do.

50:14 I was there for 9/11, you know, seems like a pretty analogous situation.

50:19 This has to be settled and the United States went and did what

50:22 it had to do in Afghanistan and took out Iraq for extra measure.

50:26 Um it's a whole other diversion.

50:28 But 100% of folks say they don't agree

50:31 with Netanyahu's approach to what happened in Gaza.

50:34 And then folks feel, a decent number of people, whether it's reality or not,

50:39 that America's getting dragged into this war with Iran,

50:42 not under false pretenses, uh and because Israel is pushing us to do it.

50:48 So, let's take these two issues separately and I'm

50:51 just curious in understanding your position on this.

50:54 Are you part of the Jewish-American diaspora that believes, "Hey,

51:00 Israel's right to defend itself, but maybe Gaza went too far." Okay.

51:03 Well, first off, um let me say this.

51:05 I don't view this issue as a Jewish-American, as you said.

51:10 I view this issue as an American.

51:12 And I view this issue in a way of trying

51:15 to understand what is the best thing for America,

51:18 which to me is having peace and stability in the Middle East.

51:23 Okay?

51:23 That's how I approach these issues.

51:26 It is, um and I've been clear and consistent about this long before October 7th,

51:32 that I think Netanyahu, the leader of Israel,

51:36 um is someone who's been leading Israel down a dangerous and isolated path.

51:42 I think he has made Israel um more isolated in the world community.

51:47 He has fractured really what used to be

51:50 a non-partisan or bipartisan um American support for Israel.

51:55 And I think he has put Israel in a very dangerous place.

51:58 And of course, he was the leader of Israel

52:01 who wasn't minding the shop when October 7th happened.

52:05 So, I've been very critical of Netanyahu for years and years and years.

52:10 I've also for years made very clear that I think

52:13 the America's interest in the region should be for stability and peace.

52:18 And that it would be my hope that you

52:21 would have two states living peacefully side by side,

52:25 Israel and a Palestinian state.

52:28 Now, I realize that is a long way off given where we are right now.

52:33 But it is clear that we need to work toward that.

52:35 And obviously, that Palestinian state cannot be led by Hamas,

52:39 which is a terrorist organization.

52:41 And there has to be some structure that is

52:44 put in place in order in order to create that.

52:48 As it relates to the war, which you also asked about in in your question,

52:52 I mean, this was a war of choice.

52:54 The president never defined the objectives.

52:57 It is clear that I don't know how the hell to get out of this.

53:00 Um we'll see what he ultimately does with his big threats.

53:04 You know, we're we're recording this on the eve of his, you know,

53:07 of his big uh threat um using language

53:11 using language that was so offensive, you'll excuse my language,

53:15 that diminished the value of human life.

53:19 Um we'll see what he ultimately does.

53:21 Does he chicken out as he usually does,

53:23 or does, God forbid, he he go through with that?

53:26 This was a war of choice.

53:27 He didn't know why he got into it.

53:29 He didn't know how the hell to get out of it.

53:31 America's get into it?

53:32 Handicap America's national security interests have

53:36 not been well served by this.

53:38 And economically, you've talked about this.

53:40 Economically, we are worse off uh because of this war.

53:44 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to speak over you.

53:46 No, no, no.

53:46 I mean, listen, I I appreciate your candidness, Governor.

53:50 Why did he do it?

53:51 If you had to handicap it, or what are you hearing when you talk cuz you

53:53 have obviously a lot more information than the average American?

53:58 now?

53:59 Why did we do this now?

54:00 We had done, you know, the strategic trimming of the hedges,

54:04 mowing of the lawn, whatever the term is to get rid of the nuclear progress.

54:08 That's containment seemed like a perfect strategy,

54:12 and then all of a sudden we decide we're going to do regime change.

54:14 This is after Trump promised that he would never get it

54:17 in would do an intervention like this in the Middle East.

54:20 This is after we were told by the Republicans,

54:23 do not vote for a crazy Democrat who will take us to war with Iran.

54:27 And here we are in month 14 or 13 of the Trump presidency, and he started a war.

54:33 Yeah.

54:34 His own biggest advocates, from Megan Kelly to Tucker Carlson,

54:38 and you know, people on the fringe, Alex Jones,

54:40 and everybody in the middle, the comedians who supported him,

54:43 the podcast diaspora, or the podcast bros, they're all fleeing the ship.

54:48 They did not want this.

54:49 So, here we are.

54:51 Why did he do this?

54:52 Why now?

54:52 What is your handicapping of it?

54:54 Well, I I'll answer that.

54:55 I will just say it's yet another broken

54:57 promise to the people who put him in power.

55:00 He screwed over the farmers who put him in power.

55:02 He told people he wouldn't slash Medicaid.

55:04 He cut Medicaid.

55:05 He told people he'd bring down prices.

55:07 Prices have skyrocketed because of his tariffs.

55:11 He He's got this long string of broken promises.

55:14 Now, why did he break this particular promise?

55:17 You know, let's let's let's examine the record.

55:20 First, Rubio went out and said he did it because if we didn't move then,

55:25 Netanyahu was going to move and was going to force our hand.

55:28 Then they walked it back.

55:29 He said seven or eight months ago that they destroy their nuclear capabilities,

55:36 and then came back seven or eight months later and said,

55:39 "We had to go in because we had

55:40 to destroy their nuclear capabilities." I don't know.

55:43 Then they said it was about regime change.

55:45 Well, great.

55:46 I mean, we went from like

55:47 an 80-something-year-old Ayatollah to a 60-something-year-old Ayatollah who,

55:51 by all accounts, seems to be far more hardline.

55:55 I'd hardly call that successful regime change.

55:58 So, to me, it is hard to think you've seen

56:02 I've been trying to be very forthright answering your questions.

56:05 You're doing good.

56:06 know how you answer that question

56:08 because the president never answered that question.

56:12 He never sat in the Oval Office and looked

56:15 the American people in the eye and said,

56:17 "This is why we're going in." And you know what?

56:19 This isn't semantics.

56:21 This isn't politics.

56:22 If you don't know why you're going in, you don't know how the hell to get out.

56:27 You don't know how to instruct the military, our brave military,

56:30 including those 13 souls who did not make it home to their families

56:35 because they went on a mission that the president never defined.

56:38 And we mourn their loss.

56:40 We thank our military heroes for what they did.

56:43 And we thank our military who are out

56:45 working every day on behalf of our freedom, and our safety, and our security.

56:49 But they deserve a commander-in-chief who would have defined the mission.

56:54 And if you define the mission, you know how to get out.

56:56 He never defined the mission.

56:58 I don't know, ultimately, if he will follow through on his threat.

57:01 Again, it's, you know, it's Tuesday afternoon you and I are talking.

57:04 We'll see ultimately what he does here.

57:06 But um to me, this has been a failed and compromised mission

57:10 from the beginning because he never made clear why he was going in.

57:14 Yeah, and I know you got to go in a moment.

57:16 It does seem to me that first explanation,

57:19 sometimes people hear their first reaction and their first

57:22 statement is the true statement, uh just in general.

57:24 And it does seem like Israel was going to do this, and we joined them,

57:27 and we didn't need to.

57:29 And to your point about

57:31 should never pardon me, America should never be led around by any other nation.

57:36 It should always be about America's interest, our national security interest,

57:40 the interest of expanding freedom and opportunity for the American people.

57:44 We should never, ever be bullied as maybe

57:47 President Trump was by any other world leader.

57:51 Back to the anti-Semitism we're experiencing now, you said, "Hey,

57:54 let's address them separately." But I don't think you can separate them

57:57 if we're getting pulled into this war by another nation and people believe,

58:03 like you and I do, "Hey, Netanyahu maybe went a little too far here." That is

58:07 what's causing the anti-Semitism in this country, don't you think?

58:11 This relationship with Israel,

58:13 the state of Israel and Netanyahu our undying support for Netanyahu,

58:16 that's not causing the anti-Semitism here.

58:18 That's what these young people seem to be saying is,

58:21 "We don't want to vote for somebody who supports Netanyahu." Well,

58:25 I think you got to be real careful on that.

58:27 You you the collective, not you individually.

58:30 I mean, if you're suggesting, say, that Jews are Israel and reflect

58:36 Israeli policies and support everything Israel does,

58:39 I mean, that's one of the oldest anti-Semitic tropes out there,

58:42 this sort of notion of dual loyalty.

58:45 I think it is fair to vote on the issue

58:49 of do we support what Donald Trump is doing relative to Netanyahu.

58:54 That's fair.

58:55 But to suggest that somehow it's, you know,

58:59 because Jews are tied to Israel and that's why Well,

59:03 you and I can parse this issue, I think, very easily.

59:06 But young people at Columbia or Harvard,

59:09 where all this is going on in these, you know,

59:12 pro-Palestinian protests are going on, they don't

59:15 seem to be able to make that parse.

59:16 That seems to be one of the roots

59:17 of the problems here that people do put together Yeah.

59:21 These young people, they could be stupid, they could be misinformed,

59:23 but they do put together what the state

59:26 of Israel is doing and they equated with Judaism.

59:29 That's what I tried.

59:31 And that's why I'm trying to be so outspoken on this and making

59:33 clear that on anti-Semitism there should be no nuance and that's

59:37 a conversation where we should all be able to unite and that we

59:40 have to protect a place for nuance when it comes to Mideast policy,

59:45 when it comes to Israel,

59:46 when it comes to Iran and and and anything happening in the Middle East.

59:51 And we need to give space for those who

59:53 want to peacefully and I want to stress peacefully protest.

59:57 We want to give space to those who differ from the administration and frankly

1:00:01 those who support the administration to be

1:00:03 able to go out and to protest peacefully.

1:00:07 And that is I think an an important part of the fabric of our American society.

1:00:12 I just think it's important.

1:00:13 I try and do this work every day as governor

1:00:15 to keep those conversations separate because when they get blended,

1:00:18 that's where I think it gets dangerous and that's where I think it it

1:00:22 really crosses a line into something we don't want to see in our society.

1:00:26 And you could be super critical of Israel

1:00:30 and you could love your Jewish neighbors and friends.

1:00:33 These are these this is a very simple concept here.

1:00:36 and I think that reflects where I am on many things.

1:00:39 I've been super critical of the Israeli government,

1:00:42 the Netanyahu government and and I'm someone who who loves Israel,

1:00:47 someone who has spent time in Israel.

1:00:49 I wrote a whole book about proposed to my wife there

1:00:53 and and how I think the the idea of it is is important.

1:00:57 We've got to figure out ways to keep those two conversations not not

1:01:02 separate but but blurring the lines in a way that creates some dangers.

1:01:07 I think it's something we have to guard against.

1:01:09 Yeah, lots of education, lots of opportunities.

1:01:11 Josh Shapiro, thank you so much for coming on All In and we

1:01:14 look forward to having you on again and good luck with your race,

1:01:17 good luck with your 76ers.

1:01:19 I will see you in the second round it looks like.

1:01:22 Next year or next time I'm on, I'll be wearing a Sixers hoodie, so Go Knicks.

1:01:27 There you go.

1:01:28 I'll see you courtside, my friend.

1:01:29 Do you go to the games?

1:01:30 I'm going all in.

1:01:46 I'm going all in.