BREAKING: Republicans execute SHOCKING scheme to RIG election

0:00 We have the most dangerous update yet as we head

0:02 toward midterms and I need everybody to pay attention to this.

0:05 So, it took virtually zero time at all

0:08 for Republican officials to act in response

0:10 to the Supreme Court gutting what's left

0:11 of the Voting Rights Act and unfortunately,

0:14 albeit predictably, they acted in the worst way possible.

0:18 So, I'm going to go through some of what that looks like.

0:20 In Louisiana, the governor called a state

0:22 of emergency and immediately suspended primaries for congressional races.

0:27 A state of emergency, not for a flood or a natural disaster

0:32 or the sky-high poverty rate or the high crime rate,

0:35 but rather to make sure that they

0:37 can eliminate districts with black representation.

0:40 That's how much weight they want to lend

0:41 to this idea of diluting black voting power in Louisiana.

0:45 It's apparently an emergency.

0:47 The state will redraw its map and could eliminate at least one,

0:51 if not both black districts.

0:53 In Alabama, Governor Kay Ivey called

0:55 a special session of the legislature to reinstate

0:57 a gerrymandered map that had previously been struck down by the Supreme Court.

1:01 But obviously, with this new decision,

1:03 that map may be what may be able to stand.

1:05 The state's two black opportunity districts may be eliminated.

1:09 In Tennessee, Governor Lee has convened

1:11 a special session that starts on Tuesday.

1:14 He stated to lawmakers, quote, "We owe it to Tennesseans to ensure

1:17 our congressional districts accurately reflect the will

1:20 of Tennessee voters." They're seeking to eliminate

1:22 the state's only black opportunity district.

1:25 In South Carolina, Republicans are calling

1:27 on the governor to call a session to redraw the maps and eliminate the one black

1:31 opportunity district currently held by Jim Clyburn.

1:34 In Florida, the state legislature already passed

1:37 a gerrymander last week that's awaiting Ron DeSantis' signature.

1:40 He may sign that map or there exists

1:42 the possibility that they might go back to the drawing

1:44 board if that map was in any way

1:46 constrained by Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act.

1:49 Um DeSantis and Florida Republicans will seek to eliminate

1:52 at least four Democratic seats, if not more now.

1:56 And that all took place essentially in the course of about a day.

1:59 In one fell swoop, these Republicans not only

2:02 sought to eliminate all black representation from their states,

2:05 but simultaneously proved why the Voting Rights

2:08 Act was necessary in the first place.

2:11 And keep in mind, the Voting Rights Act was passed as a response

2:14 to and an antidote for the Jim Crow laws in the South.

2:17 And it took not even days, but hours for those same Southern states

2:23 that had imposed those laws 60 years ago

2:26 to immediately move back and eliminate black

2:29 representation and black voting power from their borders.

2:33 So, here's where we stand on this.

2:35 60 years have gone by and conservatives have not moved off this issue,

2:40 which is to say, they won't.

2:42 We tell ourselves that they will change at our own peril.

2:46 If left to their own devices,

2:47 they will revert right back to who they've always been.

2:50 They're literally doing it as we speak.

2:52 It took no time at all.

2:54 So, the answer here is not to compromise.

2:58 The answer is not to confer goodwill onto

3:00 the other side in hopes of some elusive reciprocation.

3:04 The answer is that we have to fight because we know who they are.

3:09 And we have to fight at least as hard as the other side that has been fighting

3:13 the same battle with no qualms for 60

3:16 years and frankly just landed a pretty devastating blow.

3:18 That's how committed they are.

3:20 So, the question becomes,

3:21 will we do what's required right now and fight back harder?

3:25 And I've spent a lot of time thinking about this because the reality is

3:28 that even in an ideal world where Democrats retake the house, retake the Senate,

3:33 retake the White House and actually manage to eliminate the filibuster

3:37 and actually manage to pass a new Voting Rights Act,

3:40 the reality is that this Supreme Court will still be there waiting

3:43 in the wings to strike that legislation down just like they did this past week.

3:48 So, it's not enough to play Whac-A-Mole.

3:51 It's not enough to do all the work necessary so that we

3:54 can pass what would basically amount to a symbolic law that would

3:58 only remain intact so long as it takes the Supreme Court

4:01 to get their hands on this thing and strike it down again.

4:04 That's not good enough for me.

4:05 Shouldn't be good enough for you.

4:06 It shouldn't be good enough for anyone.

4:08 Which means that we have to go to the root of this issue.

4:11 To that end, I'm going to read a passage from my new book, The Day After.

4:14 Quote, "To restore democracy, to restore integrity to the judicial system,

4:19 we urgently need to reform the Supreme Court.

4:21 Those reforms need to be based on principle,

4:24 not politics, to have any legitimacy or public support.

4:27 The first order of a filibuster-free Congress

4:30 should be reform of the Supreme Court,

4:32 not the second or the third or the fourth or it'll

4:34 be too late to save the Republic and our independent judiciary.

4:38 If any subsequent reforms are to stand the chance of surviving,

4:41 we cannot leave in place a rogue branch of government with the power

4:44 to strike down anything that doesn't comport with its far-right ideology.

4:49 The first reform should be to expand the court in line with the principles

4:52 that determined the number of justices in the early years of the Republic.

4:56 The first Supreme Court had six justices,

4:58 reflecting the six federal court circuits.

5:01 The court grew to seven justices in 1807 after a seventh circuit was added.

5:05 It grew again to nine after two new circuits were added in 1837.

5:09 Today, there are 13 federal court circuits,

5:11 but only nine Supreme Court justices.

5:14 The court should reflect the size of the country and the scope

5:17 of its legal challenges as it did more than a century ago.

5:20 So, if the root of the problem is that we have

5:22 a rogue branch of government that will

5:24 always strike down any progressive legislation,

5:27 then we need to stop being so precious about that branch of government.

5:30 Remember, nine justices is not in the Constitution.

5:34 And remember, if Republicans needed to increase

5:36 the number of justices for themselves,

5:38 they would do it in a heartbeat.

5:40 We will not win if we're only responding, only reacting.

5:44 We have to go on offense because that's

5:46 what Republicans have done for nearly my entire lifetime.

5:49 And frankly, it is about time we fight back while we still have the chance.

5:53 I'm going to ask that if you haven't

5:54 yet had the chance to pre-order my new book,

5:56 The Day After, in which I discuss how

5:58 Democrats need to wield power in a post-Trump world,

6:01 which I think is pretty apt for this moment,

6:03 that you please click the link right here on the screen

6:05 or in the post description or in the comments and pre-order your copy today.

6:09 And I'll be also be going on tour in July.

6:12 So, if you live in or near New York, DC, Chicago, San Francisco,

6:15 or LA and you want to see me in person with guests,

6:18 please grab a ticket at the same link.

6:20 You're watching the No Lie podcast.

6:22 Next up are my interviews with Gavin Newsom,

6:25 journalist Ari Berman, and legal reporter Adam Classfeld.

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10:46 I'm joined now by Governor Gavin Newsom.

10:48 Governor, thanks for joining me.

10:49 Good to be back with you.

10:50 So obviously in light of the Supreme Court

10:53 decision gutting Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act,

10:55 we've now seen a swift kind of avalanche from these Republican-led states

10:58 where governors are now calling special

11:01 legislative sessions to redraw their maps.

11:03 Just today we've heard from the governor of Alabama.

11:07 We also have heard from obviously the the Republicans in Louisiana

11:10 considering they were one of the parties in this case.

11:13 All of which are going to redraw their maps

11:14 and so what do Democrats need to do right now

11:17 in light of you know this wave of Republican states

11:20 that are basically going to draw out every black opportunity district?

11:24 Uh All of the but look Brian I I it's so putting almost to step back.

11:28 This is all happening.

11:29 I mean the Voting Rights Act just gutted in name only now.

11:33 I mean we saw what happened uh to Roe.

11:36 We we've seen what's happening.

11:37 I mean we talked about it.

11:38 I mean you and I how many conversations do we

11:40 have where and people say well they're being a little hyperbolic.

11:44 Yeah.

11:44 That Trump and MAGA movement want to bring us back to a pre-1960s world.

11:47 That's what's happening.

11:48 And at the time we were debating issues around LGBTQ rights and women's rights.

11:52 But now we're seeing on voting rights and civil rights and they're succeeding.

11:56 And so it's I hope a big wake-up call.

11:58 We can't be rolled into any sort of you know

12:00 it's none of this is normal is the long-winded point.

12:03 And so at old adage for things to change you have to change.

12:07 We have to change.

12:08 So our approach has to be even more aggressive than we

12:12 even could have imagined just days ago not only weeks ago.

12:16 So look going forward this is going to have

12:18 profound and consequential impact on the map in this country.

12:23 And obviously the impact to the black communities off the charts.

12:26 Yeah.

12:26 Uh the reality is we don't know yet

12:30 how consequential it will be for the 2026 election.

12:32 But we do know with some certainty that there is upwards

12:35 of 19 or so seats conceivably that they can take back by 2028.

12:40 But what Landry did to your point is jaw-dropping.

12:44 Talk about not normal.

12:46 The guy suspended the election.

12:49 He declared a state of emergency to suspend

12:53 an election where they already sent the ballots out.

12:56 Because God forbid black people get to to vote

12:59 for their preferred candidate in their district.

13:01 So take one or two districts to get rid of black minority district.

13:04 Think about that.

13:05 In the south in 2025 not 19 or you know 20.

13:10 I mean 19 I mean this is literally two districts conceivably Yeah.

13:15 to eliminate black representation, suspends the election on May 16th after

13:20 literally ballots were sent overseas into the military.

13:23 People were starting to vote.

13:25 They're starting this weekend more formally at early voting.

13:28 And we're going on with the rest of our lives.

13:31 None of this is normal and again it's a preview.

13:33 We keep saying it of everything to come.

13:36 And so we have got to so redouble our efforts at the state levels.

13:40 We have upwards of 10 seats looking at 2028.

13:44 If we can win back statehouses now

13:46 the whole playing field is about legislate legislative races.

13:50 And we can get up to about 2022 to compete.

13:53 But right now there's an asymmetry.

13:55 They've got about a two-to-one advantage potentially going into 2028.

13:59 Is there any excuse for Democrats in in New Jersey,

14:04 in New York, in Colorado, Illinois, Maryland, Washington,

14:08 Oregon not to move forward in light of what we've seen in New York?

14:12 Colorado, let's go.

14:13 JB's saying the right thing in Illinois.

14:16 Obviously Wes in Maryland.

14:17 We got to go.

14:18 I appreciate Hochul put out statement.

14:20 Let's go.

14:21 We just got to move.

14:23 The whole thing's on the line.

14:25 Um and uh yeah we're redrawing lines.

14:28 We got to redraw the lines until we step down and step

14:32 back and do the right thing which is independent redistricting nationwide.

14:38 But we cannot have one hand tied behind our back.

14:41 These guys on the other side are ruthless.

14:43 You saw exactly what we knew was going

14:45 to happen happen literally minutes after this decision in Florida.

14:50 And again they didn't go to the voters.

14:52 It wasn't in a democratic and transparent way.

14:55 Uh it was done literally he released the maps on Fox.

14:59 That's how the maps I mean talk about we we

15:01 joke about these maps being you know colored in in Mar-a-Lago.

15:05 I mean literally Senator Ron Pavda.

15:08 Uh and that's how they were socialized and then within

15:10 minutes later on a special session they certified those four seats.

15:14 By the way which is unconstitutional

15:16 on the basis of the state constitution in Florida.

15:18 And God forbid uh that thing actually is upheld.

15:22 Uh but that one clearly has got some real legal questions.

15:25 I mean that's the benefit for Ron DeSantis of having six

15:27 out of seven state Supreme Court justices who he himself appointed.

15:30 These are the same Supreme Court justices that failed

15:33 to uphold uh the Constitution with the existing gerrymander.

15:36 Like Florida's current map is is a gerrymander

15:39 that was even to extreme for Florida's Republican legislature.

15:42 Ron DeSantis shoehorned into curry favor with Trump.

15:45 Now obviously in light of of this decision he's trying to do it even more.

15:49 But this is a a state Supreme Court that clearly is

15:52 not willing to lift a finger to defy uh Ron DeSantis.

15:56 No and that's I mean that's what they're

15:57 they're counting on and sort of gaming out.

15:59 And of course the courts move at such

16:00 a slow speed and these elections are around the corner.

16:03 Yeah.

16:03 And so again it has to just be a dominant blue wave.

16:08 That's how we get out of this.

16:09 We buy ourselves a little bit of time

16:11 and then those that don't have backbones develop them.

16:14 Period.

16:14 Full stop.

16:15 Again I mean it's about the fight is

16:18 how we take back the House of Representatives.

16:21 The fight is how we repair the breach in 2028.

16:25 But we have to wake up.

16:27 It's not about ideology.

16:28 It's not about taking one part of our party and clipping

16:31 their wings because you don't like the on purity test.

16:34 It's about us aligning to what we binds us

16:37 together and that's what's happening against this authoritarian regime.

16:41 Okay.

16:41 So let's say for example that Democrats retake the house, retake the Senate.

16:46 2029 comes around.

16:47 We have a Democratic president.

16:48 We're able to pass the Freedom to Vote Act.

16:51 We're able to pass a new iteration of the Voting Rights Act.

16:53 That's all well and good.

16:54 The fact remains that we still have this 6-3 conservative court in place.

16:59 And you know we can we can kind of play whack-a-mole and keep passing

17:02 Voting Rights Act and they keep swatting it down like they've done right now.

17:06 So uh that that raises the point that so long as this court exists as it

17:10 does right now they're going to continue

17:12 to do what they just did this past week.

17:14 Do you think that the court needs to be expanded so that we have some protection

17:19 as opposed to having a rogue branch

17:20 of government that's always there to push back progress?

17:23 No I get the instinct on this.

17:25 My only concern there'll be probably more members of the Supreme Court in 50

17:28 years than there are members of Congress if we continue to do this.

17:31 Whoever then is in the majority continues

17:33 to expand on the basis of their ideology.

17:35 But your point is spot on.

17:36 I mean it goes to first question though is filibuster.

17:40 In order to get to that threshold to order move

17:42 some of that legislation even if you have all three branches.

17:45 But the question you're right is the court is self-evident because this was 1965

17:49 Voters Rights Act that was the Congress that adopted it and they threw it out.

17:52 So the question A Congress that that that that re-implemented it by 98

17:56 to nothing I believe in like 2006 or signed into law by George W.

17:59 Bush not exactly some some you know some crunchy liberal.

18:02 But that the question remains then what do

18:04 you do to actually entrench some of these protections

18:08 No I I I think we get into a larger sort of re-reform as it relates to ethics

18:12 as it relates more broadly which hardly is

18:14 the answer but is one of the strategies for reform.

18:17 And then obviously issues I think that are appropriate

18:19 to have conversation around term limits in that respect.

18:21 But my fear sincerely is shoes on the other foot.

18:25 Uh we'll we'll go from you know the current status

18:28 to then doubling it to doubling it again to doubling it again.

18:32 And at a certain point it loses its purpose.

18:35 And its purpose was to be above politics.

18:37 The course politics was what drove this decision.

18:41 Every member of this court that voted in the majority to overrule Section 2

18:45 or at least the Voting Rights Act or at least gutted all of them

18:49 had promoted that point of view were vetted for that point of view and were

18:53 brought through that process with the expectation

18:56 they what they were going to do.

18:58 But I just I I'm a little more cautious.

19:01 So I'm open to argument.

19:02 I admit to being open to argument on this.

19:04 But right now I'm a little more cautious about continuing to expand that.

19:07 Yeah.

19:08 I mean look the the argument I think is is already beyond

19:11 clear to you is that is that you know so that we're not

19:13 in a situation where if we're if all the stars align and we're

19:17 able to pass some of this legislation which again requires winning the house,

19:21 winning the Senate, winning the presidency only

19:24 to see you know the Amy Coney Barretts

19:25 and and and Samuel Alitos and and Clarence Thomases

19:28 of the world do exactly what they've done this week.

19:32 You know that that that would be

19:33 the argument to at least take it into consideration.

19:37 Amen.

19:37 Amen.

19:37 And we'll see what what plays out over the course

19:38 of the next few years if there is some changes, if there's some retirements.

19:41 And let's see if there's a change in terms

19:44 of the courage and the backbone of members of our party, the Democratic Party,

19:48 that have been a little too complicit

19:50 in supporting some of these Republican nominees

19:52 knowing full well they would not be

19:54 the person that they were in that interrogation,

19:57 quote unquote, during the confirmation hearings.

20:00 So, on a similar point, there is the 2030 census that's coming up.

20:04 In that census, California is expected to lose about four electoral votes,

20:07 along with a bunch of other traditionally blue states that are going

20:11 to be giving some of those electoral votes to traditionally red states.

20:14 States like Texas, states like Idaho are going

20:16 to gain are going to gain electoral votes.

20:18 States like California and New York are going to lose them.

20:21 And so, you know, it's it's only 2026 right now.

20:24 We have the opportunity to make sure we stave off some of the departures,

20:28 you know, the population loss from this state.

20:31 And so, what have you done?

20:34 What should the next governor of California do?

20:37 We have a mayoral election right here in Los Angeles.

20:39 What should they be doing to make sure that homes

20:42 could be built here so that people can live here?

20:45 To make it as easy as possible so

20:47 that we're not kind of seeding all of this ground,

20:49 surrendering this population to states that are only going to, you know,

20:53 usher in Republican policies that that, you know,

20:56 help dismantle, chip away at our democracy.

20:58 In some ways it it it may be even more challenging

21:01 because of legal immigration that's been impacted by Trump and Trumpism.

21:05 And legal immigration has been one of the sources

21:07 of our population growth for decades and decades in California.

21:11 It's one of the reasons California's economy is so vibrant is we get the best

21:14 and the brightest first round draft choices from around the rest of the world.

21:18 That said, we had 3 years of population growth,

21:21 308,000 net new people in the state of California between 2022 and 2025.

21:26 Your broader point, though, around housing is at the core of the challenge

21:31 not only California and Californians are feeling,

21:34 but people all across this country.

21:36 I was just looking at some new data about Florida and the fact they're

21:39 starting to lose folks because the cost

21:41 of living and housing affordability or lack thereof,

21:43 particularly as it relates to homeowner insurance as well.

21:46 That said, we are very very proud in this state to have just

21:50 passed some of the most significant zoning

21:54 reforms in not only our state's history,

21:57 but we think are models for the rest of the country.

22:00 It is all about zoning reform.

22:02 It's all about build, baby, build, not drill, baby, drill.

22:05 It is about addressing those thickets about

22:09 time value of these investments and money, dealing with NIMBYism.

22:13 And let me give you a proof point.

22:14 When I got here, there were 70,000 housing units constructed.

22:17 This last year, 111,000.

22:19 59% improvement.

22:21 We've also reduced the entitlement time by 56%, which is a big damn deal.

22:28 So, in both counts, we're moving in the right direction.

22:31 We finally have the right housing policies.

22:34 Now, it's all about application, implementation.

22:36 And I continue to say it, localism is determinative.

22:40 Local government at the end of the state vision is realized locally.

22:43 And the biggest impediment to action,

22:45 what stands in the way, has been local government.

22:49 And we have a new local housing accountability unit.

22:52 We're suing cities, Huntington Beach infamously.

22:55 We put 46 others on notice.

22:58 We have strategies to fast-track

23:00 the litigation in terms of ultimately adjudicating

23:03 the merits of our assertions around the lack of cooperation on housing.

23:07 And so, it's a much much more muscular approach.

23:10 It's about a liberalism that builds.

23:12 And that has to be front and center in terms

23:14 of the Democratic Party's mindset and our policy making.

23:18 We have to own this space.

23:19 We've been so damn consumed by process.

23:22 This paralysis has gotten in the way of the kind

23:26 of progress and a kind of proof point

23:28 that we need that Democrats can govern in an effective

23:31 and efficient way to address these tectonic challenges,

23:35 particularly for young people of affordability.

23:37 It is a supply-demand problem.

23:39 And we need to build more damn housing.

23:43 Is there buy-in from the legislature?

23:45 Yeah, it was tough.

23:46 Canada because everyone's, you know,

23:48 and it's not an indictment of any individual.

23:50 It's an indictment of the system, which is just all these interest groups.

23:54 Yeah.

23:54 And so, this paralysis because people want,

23:57 you know, we're so often we're accommodating.

24:00 We're accommodating cities.

24:01 We're accommodating counties.

24:02 We're accommodating particular interest groups across the spectrum of issues,

24:06 environmental, labor, maybe our own instincts around localism

24:10 and just having neighborhoods decide for themselves.

24:12 And so, again, everybody, we're all complicit.

24:15 Society becomes how we behave.

24:17 This has happened on our watch over the last half century.

24:20 It's hardly new.

24:21 What's shifted is we've been more aggressive and every

24:25 year we keep coming back more aggressively still.

24:28 But last year was a breakthrough in California.

24:30 And I got to say, I got to give Ezra Klein a lot of credit.

24:33 His book on abundance abundance, not scarcity mindset.

24:36 And it allowed me, honestly,

24:38 that conversation carried with it this kind of weight that I

24:42 did something I'd never done before and no other governor had.

24:45 I literally was going to veto the budget.

24:47 I put the housing bills in the budget.

24:50 It's not how how the sausage is made.

24:53 Yeah.

24:53 Because I said enough.

24:54 I can't keep dealing with this delay and denial.

24:58 And we were able to push through.

24:59 And what's amazing, final point, is the mindset has shifted now.

25:03 Once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to original.

25:05 Now, people like, what else do we have?

25:07 Now, how do we deal with the cost of construction?

25:09 Modular, prefab, deal with productivity gains, address the issue of impact fees,

25:13 huge issue that has to be addressed.

25:15 We have a lot of new ideas on that.

25:17 In a couple weeks, we'll be introducing in the budget as well.

25:21 But this is I I just feel more optimism looking out the window.

25:28 But obviously, in the rearview, my god,

25:30 this has been the original sin in California.

25:33 So, I want to I want to talk one more one more

25:35 topic on California before we move on to to national politics again.

25:38 But as it relates to the entertainment industry,

25:41 this is something that I that I'm up

25:43 your ass about every time every time we speak.

25:45 But what would you like to see given the fact that this budget will pass, Yeah.

25:49 there'll be a new governor of California.

25:52 What would you what would be your parting words

25:54 in terms of getting more industry jobs back into this state?

25:59 Because, you know, they haven't just left California.

26:01 They have largely left the United States,

26:03 going to places like the United Kingdom,

26:05 going to places like Canada, to Bulgaria has a thriving film industry.

26:09 And then even within the US, I mean,

26:11 Netflix just built a huge sound stage in New Jersey,

26:15 where where I had initially come from.

26:17 And so, what needs to be done to lure those jobs back here?

26:21 Well, number one, the president's talked a good game, hasn't delivered.

26:24 In terms of a federal tax credit?

26:26 Yeah, well, he originally talked about tariffs, which is just,

26:28 you know, as dumb as he [clears throat] wants to be.

26:29 I mean, just stuck on stupid.

26:31 But he's finally starting to talk at least privately.

26:34 I've had a number of conversations with folks

26:37 that say he's opening more and more,

26:39 is more open to the idea of some federal tax credit.

26:42 So, that's foundational in terms of keeping American jobs

26:45 and allowing this industry to thrive in the United States.

26:48 And then, from a state-by-state competitiveness frame,

26:51 we have to deal again with all these thickets as it relates to just the mundane,

26:56 which is parking and traffic issues,

26:58 the cost of overtime and permitting, regulatory stuff at the local level.

27:02 And then, yes, the states have to step up with their tax credit program.

27:05 We more than doubled it last year.

27:07 We've seen the fruits of that.

27:08 It's literally taking shape.

27:09 We're announcing almost on a weekly basis new production,

27:12 new economic opportunities, new economic development.

27:14 But for the next governor,

27:16 the issue of above the line has to come into it as it relates

27:19 to the opportunity to expand those tax credits

27:22 to get some of the larger films done.

27:24 But if we can get a federal tax credit, I think we can start taking,

27:27 with love and respect to my friends in the UK,

27:29 we can start taking those jobs back from the United Kingdom,

27:33 take them back from other parts of the globe

27:35 that have enjoyed the lack of investment in this space.

27:39 But look, you can't We rested on our laurels.

27:42 So typical, right?

27:44 The world we invented is now competing against us.

27:47 And so, if you want to do well in the future, you got to invest in it.

27:50 And we made the mistake over that last few decades,

27:52 but we're making up for that now.

27:54 We have still new ideas that we'll be proposing in the next few weeks.

27:58 And the next governor administration, I think,

28:00 need to continue to double down on this.

28:02 So, I want to switch gears here.

28:04 About a week ago, there was the White House Correspondents Dinner.

28:07 The shooting took place within, you know, 5 minutes.

28:09 Trump took the opportunity to both use

28:12 it as a justification to build his ballroom

28:15 and to attack Jimmy Kimmel for somehow inciting violence

28:20 by making a joke about how Trump is old.

28:23 Older, yeah.

28:23 And 25, you know, 25 years older than Melania.

28:26 And so, somehow that is an incitement to violence.

28:28 Both of those obviously absurd on their face.

28:31 Can I have your reaction to to him using this kind

28:34 of as an opportunity to to really push forward his pet projects,

28:38 which are silencing comedians who commit the the cardinal sin,

28:41 the crime of of criticizing him,

28:44 and also trying to push forward his ballroom so that, you know,

28:47 he can, you know, have his let them eat cake moment.

28:49 Well, hell of a way to bring the country together

28:52 as his press secretary was condemning Democrats for their rhetoric.

28:55 Here's the president of the United States who

28:57 has an asymmetry not It's not a partisan point.

29:01 It's an institutional point.

29:02 It's the president of the United States and used it to not only exploit

29:08 the ballroom and to direct Brendan Carr

29:12 to try to suppress continue to suppress free speech,

29:15 more on that in a moment, but also to indict Comey for a beach photo.

29:21 That was the aftermath of that moment, this evil act at the White House

29:25 Correspondents Dinner that needs to be condemned.

29:28 And by the way, violence rhetoric condemned on all sides.

29:32 I'm not going to all side both sides, but you know what?

29:35 It goes in both directions, which means the solution to this also

29:39 goes with accountability in both directions.

29:41 Yeah.

29:41 But the asymmetry of the president, his ability to set the tone for the nation.

29:46 You contrast that to what he did shortly after to your point,

29:50 but here's the thing that I hope people paying attention to.

29:54 What's what Brendan Carr is doing at the FCC?

29:57 Because the henchman on this is Carr, who was sent out to do what he did prior,

30:05 which was to celebrate and subtly in directly encourage Nexstar

30:13 and Sinclair to shut down Kimmel for a period of time.

30:18 Carr publicly celebrated that.

30:21 Carr then, in return for that, has just signed

30:26 off on a waiver for Nexstar in a merger,

30:30 which is the largest broadcast merger in history,

30:33 that he approved with a waiver that takes a 39%

30:37 TV household threshold statute and allows for upwards now,

30:42 if this merger goes forward, Nexstar to have 80% penetration in the market.

30:48 That was the return on that original investment

30:52 of suppressing free speech and free expression with Kimmel.

30:55 They're going after comedians cuz comedians are trusted.

30:58 They're shutting down Colbert, they attack Maher,

31:01 they attack Stewart, they attack Kimmel.

31:04 But they're attacking free speech, and it's what's not said.

31:06 It's production segments that are shut down.

31:09 That's happening.

31:10 I don't think it, I know it.

31:11 When I announced the lawsuit against this merger,

31:16 one of the major local TV stations in the Sacramento market refused

31:22 to air the press conference and to show what we were doing.

31:26 That suppression is already happening in the United States of America.

31:28 This is a big damn deal.

31:31 So, we're litigating.

31:32 We had a good early judicial decision on it.

31:34 We're not out of the woods.

31:35 These guys are not screwing around.

31:37 Brendan Carr is a disgrace,

31:39 and what's happening in the media space in this country is so much bigger

31:42 than the shiny object of what's going

31:44 on with Paramount and the Warner Brothers merger.

31:48 We have to focus on what's happening at the local level,

31:50 Sinclair, and focus on what's happening Nexstar.

31:53 Do you have confidence that this could be unwound if

31:56 and when we have a Democratic

31:57 administration that actually takes antitrust seriously,

32:00 that's actually willing to push back on the censorship,

32:03 the consolidation in the media space of these, you know,

32:06 of of right-wing voices, basically?

32:08 It's difficult.

32:08 I mean, it's, you know, the damage is done with Colbert.

32:11 The damage is being done in real time.

32:13 Again, it's There's just segment producers.

32:16 There's the chill of free speech and free expression.

32:19 I I don't think it we have to know

32:21 that comedians aren't going full throttle right now.

32:24 Yeah.

32:25 Are throttling back.

32:26 Yeah.

32:27 Complete weaponization of the FCC.

32:29 It's total corruption.

32:32 It's not the corruption in Albania and Serbia.

32:34 It's not the corruption in Saudi Arabia and Dubai and the UAE

32:37 and the Vietnam and all the golf courses and the deals that we see.

32:40 It's not the meme coin, the stable coin.

32:42 It's not the $400 million Qatari jet.

32:44 It's not the, you know, $100,000 watch or the $60 Bible or the sneakers.

32:50 It's not all that.

32:51 It's even somewhat more insidious.

32:53 That's about personal benefit for Trump.

32:55 This is about structurally and institutionally reducing the fabric of truth

33:00 and trust and transparency in the United States of America.

33:02 So, I just I hope we put more emphasis and focus on this.

33:05 I've been a little bit peeved that people

33:07 aren't more outraged by what Carr is doing,

33:10 not just what the what Trump is doing on daily basis,

33:13 but what Carr is implementing and how he's executing.

33:16 On that point, as we talk about media companies,

33:19 can you give an update because I'm sure that a lot of folks don't know this.

33:22 You have a lawsuit against Fox that's actually moving forward right now.

33:27 Can you explain what that lawsuit is?

33:28 Well, I This was a big deal.

33:30 Judge said that there's a reasonable chance that Fox knowingly 43-page

33:38 ruling just a day ago on a defamation lawsuit that I filed

33:43 about a year ago last June against Fox for knowingly lying about

33:48 a phone call I had with Donald Trump and doing multiple segments,

33:51 but knowingly lying about it.

33:53 Even by my standards with Fox, I was shocked.

33:56 They go after me 24/7,

33:57 but this even shocked me that they were knowingly willing to spew these lies,

34:03 and they were heard around the world, literally around the world.

34:05 They're picked up in hundreds of different other publications.

34:09 I got phone calls about this.

34:10 People saying, "Boy, why are you lying about this?" And so, I filed this.

34:15 I didn't do it for petulant reasons.

34:17 I did it because enough.

34:20 I mean, these guys are the impact they're having in this country.

34:23 I just I mean, I I refer to them as Pravda.

34:26 It is Pravda.

34:27 But they need to be held to account.

34:28 They didn't learn their lesson from Dominion.

34:31 We thought they would learn their lesson from Dominion.

34:33 So, now we're in discovery phase.

34:35 They don't want to be in discovery phase.

34:38 And this judge said there was enough evidence

34:41 that it's likely that they knowingly have defamed me,

34:47 and they need to be held to account.

34:49 That's not just Trump that can play that game.

34:51 Again, fight fire with fire.

34:53 Enough.

34:54 And so, I'm pleased this went forward, and you know, it's not about the money.

34:59 We said it was about the apology.

35:01 Said, "Just apologize.

35:03 Own up to your lies." And they refused.

35:06 And so, hopefully now could be about some accountability,

35:10 and I'm looking forward to discovery and the transparency

35:14 to understand how the sausage is made over there.

35:16 Well, you know, when discovery happened

35:18 in the January 6th the the Dominion lawsuit,

35:20 we saw emails from all of these Fox executives,

35:23 Fox hosts, where it was clear that they

35:25 knew exactly what they were talking about,

35:26 but it was more important for them to be

35:28 able to lie to the rubes who watched them,

35:31 to the marks who watched them, than just to tell them the truth.

35:34 And so, these people, I mean,

35:35 it would be bad enough if they were just spewing dis- and misinformation,

35:38 but what's worse is that they knew the truth.

35:41 It was just more important for them to manipulate the people who trusted them,

35:45 who who who, you know,

35:46 made the mistake of trusting these people so that they couldn't,

35:49 you know, benefit benefit their their political party,

35:51 their preferred political party.

35:52 This is what should This should infuriate everyone that watches Fox.

35:56 How How they treat you.

35:58 This is not about the Fox viewer.

36:00 They They're dismissiveness.

36:03 To your point, they're just a way of making a quick buck.

36:05 They You know, they have another plane,

36:07 another house in Palm Beach, and hey, you know, a whole thing.

36:10 Yeah.

36:11 I mean, this is just It's It's And it's got to stop.

36:15 And again, Brendan Carr, what's happening with that merger,

36:18 what's happening across the spectrum as it relates to all

36:21 the things that are happening in the media space, consolidation we discussed,

36:24 and some of it getting more attention than than others,

36:27 but you got to be accountable on the air to truth.

36:32 I I understand the subjectivity.

36:34 I understand their point of view.

36:36 But you can't knowingly defame someone.

36:39 You can't knowingly lie.

36:41 And if you do and you get caught,

36:42 you need to be held to account in the most important court,

36:46 and that's the court of public opinion.

36:48 Last question here on that point,

36:50 what would you like to see come out of this Fox lawsuit?

36:54 Like what what does success look like for you?

36:56 What would be the the biggest benefit of not

36:59 just learning what we will learn in discovery, but of winning this lawsuit?

37:04 Respect your viewers.

37:05 Change.

37:06 Truth, trust, decency, character.

37:10 Some of the old values that, you know, I thought would

37:12 But you know, but you know, you know full well that none of those

37:15 Well, then you know, then it's then it's about stone-cold accountability.

37:18 You pay the price for your lies and defamation.

37:20 You pay the price for knowingly defaming other people, and you pay a price,

37:26 and you should pay a huge They paid a big price, $787 million for Dominion.

37:29 Apparently, that was drop in the bucket, chump change.

37:34 So, they need to keep paying that price

37:37 until they change the way they do business.

37:40 So, I don't know if it's that complicated.

37:43 I just wanted a simple damn apology.

37:45 Own up to your lies.

37:47 They refused.

37:48 They tried to hide them.

37:49 They thought for sure they'd get this thrown out,

37:52 and this judge in a 43-page thing said, "Hold on, boys and girls.

37:57 Save your emails.

37:59 Lawyer up.

38:01 And let's get ready for discovery,

38:03 and we're going to discover a lot more about how Fox is really run

38:07 and the lies and the mistruths and how

38:10 it's organized and how it's delivered and weaponized 24/7,

38:15 and that is a very healthy thing for our democracy." Perfect place to leave off.

38:19 Governor Newsom, I appreciate the time.

38:20 Good to be back.

38:21 I'm joined now by national voting rights correspondent at Mother

38:24 Jones and the author of the book Minority Rule, Ari Berman.

38:26 Ari, thanks for joining me again.

38:28 Hey, Brian.

38:29 Great to talk to you again.

38:30 So, obviously, we're talking in the aftermath

38:32 of the Supreme Court handing down the Cale decision,

38:34 which guts Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act.

38:37 So, I think, in large part, we anticipated this move,

38:40 but from your vantage as somebody who is

38:42 a long-time expert on voting rights on uh well,

38:46 your aptly titled book Minority Rule, how much of a blinking red light

38:50 is this for Democrats recognizing that Republicans

38:53 now have carte blanche to redraw um

38:56 redraw any maps that have black opportunity districts?

38:59 It's a flashing red light for democracy.

39:02 It's an emergency for democracy because the Supreme Court not only

39:08 gutted the Voting Rights Act for the third time, I might add,

39:12 but they also did it in a way that allows

39:14 some states a very narrow to redraw their districts for 2026.

39:19 I thought the justices would at least have the decency

39:22 to wait until this cycle of redistricting is over,

39:25 but as always, the Roberts Court showed how nakedly partisan it is.

39:29 So, they not just completely gutted the Voting Rights Act,

39:33 they actually gave some states the opportunity to redraw their maps this cycle.

39:37 And the the larger context of this is Democrats had basically fought

39:42 Republicans to a draw in the gerrymandering arms race that Trump launched.

39:46 Now, if all of these southern states,

39:49 at least some of them are able to redraw and Democrats can't,

39:53 that's going to put Democrats at a disadvantage heading into 2026.

39:56 They might be able to overcome it.

39:58 Obviously, if there's a wave election, they will be able to overcome it,

40:02 but this decision just shows how nakedly partisan the Roberts Court has been.

40:07 They basically say, "You shouldn't change election

40:09 laws in the middle of an election."

40:11 Then they completely rewrite the Voting Rights

40:13 Act in the middle of an election season.

40:15 So, what states are you looking at right now?

40:17 Obviously, in the immediate aftermath of this move,

40:19 Louisiana has already called uh to cancel

40:23 their primaries so that they can redraw their maps,

40:25 but what other states are you looking at right now?

40:27 I'm looking at states where the primaries haven't happened yet.

40:31 So, Louisiana is one of them.

40:32 South Carolina's another.

40:34 Tennessee's another.

40:35 Obviously, Florida already redrew,

40:38 uh but they feel like maybe they're on firmer ground now with this decision.

40:42 I'm not actually sure if it's true.

40:44 So, I think maybe you're talking about four to five seats potentially shifting.

40:47 We'll see what happens.

40:48 Um the the Supreme Court's opinion was not a model of clarity.

40:52 And so, it made it clear that drawing new

40:55 districts uh to try to advantage minority voters is unconstitutional.

41:00 Leave aside the fact they said it was legal in Alabama 2 years ago,

41:03 and that's why Louisiana did that.

41:04 So, they're already contradicting their own rulings from 2 years ago,

41:07 but it's also not clear if states can just rush

41:09 in and dismantle that have existed for decades like in Mississippi,

41:14 like in South Carolina, like in Tennessee.

41:16 So, this issue is headed before the courts again.

41:20 Uh certainly the lower court and and potentially

41:22 the Supreme Court before the election.

41:24 So, if you're the Democrats and you're watching this take place right now,

41:27 what are the first moves that the left makes in response to this?

41:32 Well, the left is going to have to have a plan to redraw in 2028.

41:36 It's going to be hard for them to redraw in any more states in in 2026,

41:40 but uh certainly 2028 you're going to have to have

41:43 the blue states that didn't do it for one reason or another.

41:46 Um there are some states that couldn't do it under their state

41:48 constitutions like New York and Colorado that could redraw in 2028.

41:52 There's other states that could have done it like Illinois,

41:55 like Maryland that chose not to.

41:57 I think the pressure's going to be on every single blue state to do

42:00 this because if every red state redraws

42:03 to not just pick up seats for partisan advantage,

42:05 but to wipe away gains of advances

42:08 for minority voters in the civil rights movement,

42:10 then it's really a moral imperative for blue

42:13 states to respond to level the playing field.

42:16 Uh in the immediate uh in in the immediate though,

42:19 I think that Democrats are going to have to organize in some of these states.

42:22 Obviously, if you dismantle districts that are

42:25 held by black members of Congress, black voters still have to go somewhere.

42:29 They can't just be completely wiped off the map.

42:31 And so, that means that there has to be

42:33 efforts to contest these seats in southern states,

42:36 and there's some evidence already that the gerrymandered

42:39 maps that were drawn in places like Texas, in places like Florida,

42:42 might not be as secure as Republicans thought they would be,

42:46 and that there's also possibilities for pick-up opportunities

42:49 in some red states like Tennessee, for example.

42:52 And so, Democrats need a long-term strategy

42:55 to try to counteract what Republicans are doing, but in the short term,

42:59 they also just need to take advantage

43:01 of a political climate in which Trump and Republicans

43:04 are unpopular to contest every seat possible

43:07 including in the South and expand the map.

43:09 So, on that point of Democrats taking a long-term strategy,

43:12 I've I've been thinking about this a lot because you know,

43:15 I think from the activist front,

43:18 we advocate for Democrats to to retake control of the House, the Senate,

43:22 the White House, pass good voting rights legislation,

43:25 uh you know, the the John R.

43:26 Lewis Voting Rights Act,

43:27 the Freedom to Vote Act that was HR1 during the Biden era.

43:31 Even if these laws get passed, we now see that there is a rogue branch

43:36 of government that's always going to strike it down.

43:38 This Supreme Court will not let um a voting rights act,

43:41 whether it comes from 1965 or 2029, stand.

43:45 Um at least under the the um the ideological breakdown that they have right now.

43:52 And so, what is the solution longer term

43:56 than even just retaking full control of government,

44:00 recognizing that it's always just going to be a battle

44:03 back and forth where Democrats can pass voting rights legislation,

44:06 and then Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito,

44:08 and the rest of these right-wingers in the Supreme Court will strike it down.

44:11 And so, nothing is permanent in that sense.

44:14 Yeah, that's why reforming the Supreme Court has

44:16 to be the number one priority of the progressive movement.

44:18 Otherwise, basically every progressive idea is going to die at court.

44:23 And the court has elevated itself other

44:25 the over the other branches of government.

44:27 I mean, they just completely in the Clairol decision,

44:29 they completely overruled the 1982 reauthorization of the Voting

44:35 Rights Act that was passed overwhelmingly by the Congress.

44:39 And normally, the courts are supposed to defer to the Congress.

44:42 And they have basically said, "When it comes to these kind of issues,

44:46 we are the final word." In some cases, they say Congress can legislate.

44:50 Not even clear in this case Congress can legislate cuz basically they're saying,

44:53 "We're the only people that can enforce the 50th Amendment,

44:57 the only people that can understand the 50th

44:59 Amendment." No goes without saying they completely turned

45:01 the 50th Amendment on its head by basically

45:04 saying that a law that was meant to give

45:06 black men the right to vote and to get rid of the vestiges of slavery is

45:11 now something where you can find districts

45:14 that were drawn to help the descendants of slavery, that's unconstitutional.

45:18 So, they've completely turned the 50th Amendment on its head.

45:20 They've completely overruled the will of Congress,

45:22 and and that's why I think it's

45:23 not enough to ban partisan gerrymandering or make

45:27 it easier to vote if you don't change the composition of the Supreme Court,

45:31 which I believe was illegally constructed in terms of how they did it,

45:34 in terms of stealing seats and and other hardball measures they used,

45:37 um then really all of your other

45:40 priorities are are not going to ultimately survive.

45:43 Do you have confidence that this Democratic

45:46 Party or or what new iteration comes,

45:48 you know, in 2026 and 2028, will have the spine to do that?

45:53 Because this is not a Democratic Party that's known for upending norms,

45:57 uh for making uncomfortable the institutions of government.

46:01 I mean, so often we see a blind deference to the institutions as they stand.

46:06 I mean, the the filibuster has the sacrosanctity.

46:09 The parliamentarian has the sacrosanctity when it comes to uh

46:12 when it comes to Democrats who are largely institutionalist,

46:15 but the reality is, I mean, you and I both just explained it.

46:18 Like, no voting rights legislation, really no progressive legislation will stand

46:23 with the Supreme Court as it stands right now.

46:26 And so, everything uh as it relates to the court is foundational,

46:29 but that's a big swing for a Democratic Party that will often let

46:32 the smallest roadblock stand in their way when it comes to, you know,

46:36 either upending some norm versus actually getting legislation

46:41 through by any means necessary ala Mitch McConnell.

46:44 So, what do you think about, you know,

46:45 the the stomach of this Democratic Party as we

46:48 move forward to actually get some of this stuff done?

46:51 Well, I think they have to have the stomach for it.

46:52 I think the people that have the stomach for it

46:54 are going to emerge as the leaders of the party, uh particularly in 2028.

46:58 There's no way there's going to be a Democratic nominee

47:00 for president who doesn't support strongly reforming the Supreme Court.

47:04 Uh this is not going to be Biden kind of flirting with Supreme Court reform.

47:08 They're going to have to tackle

47:09 this issue head-on and understand that the Supreme

47:12 Court is the greatest impediment to progressive politics in America right now.

47:16 And so, I think that the circumstances are changing uh in the Democratic Party.

47:22 Uh they understand that the the court is

47:25 going to just keep going further and further

47:28 and further in terms of what they're going to do on the Voting Rights Act.

47:31 I mean, just think about this, Brian.

47:32 The Supreme Court gutted the heart of the Voting

47:34 Rights Act in 2013 by ruling that states

47:36 with long history of discrimination no longer had

47:38 to approve their voting changes with the federal government.

47:40 But they said, "Oh, we're not touching that other part of the Voting Rights Act,

47:44 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act." Then,

47:46 8 years later, they severely weakened Section 2 of the Voting Rights

47:49 Act and made it very hard to strike down discriminatory voting laws.

47:52 Then, 5 years after that, they gutted the Voting Rights Act again

47:57 and basically say that you can

47:59 no longer police racial gerrymandering in redistricting,

48:03 that you can no longer protect decades of advances for minority voters.

48:06 So, they're not stopping.

48:08 The point is is they're not moderating.

48:09 Yeah, they moderate on some cases where the Federalist

48:12 Society opposes things that Trump does like on tariffs.

48:15 They're not even taking an an anti-conservative position.

48:17 They're just taking a position where there are some factions

48:20 of the Republican Party that don't like what Trump is doing.

48:22 But when it comes to things like the advances of the civil rights movement,

48:26 um progressive policies more broadly,

48:28 this is a court that is extremely hostile uh

48:32 to basically the civil rights revolution of the 1960s.

48:36 Uh and I don't know how you legislate against

48:39 that other than changing the composition of the court itself.

48:43 And and it makes sense to do so.

48:45 I mean, the first Supreme Court had six justices.

48:47 There were six federal court circuits.

48:50 Uh after that, the court grew to seven when

48:52 there was another uh court circuit that was added.

48:55 So, it has always been in line with the number of federal court circuits,

48:59 but it stopped at nine.

49:00 And now we have 13 federal court circuits.

49:02 And so, it would make sense even unto itself.

49:04 Like, if you want to defer to norms,

49:07 this is actually the norm that the number of Supreme Court

49:09 seats um is is compliant with the number of federal court circuits.

49:14 Yeah, and of course, there's no there are certain things that are built

49:18 into the Constitution in terms of the Supreme Court,

49:21 but there's lots of things that you could

49:22 do that are different with the Supreme Court.

49:25 There's also courts that function other ways.

49:28 I think we like to think that the Supreme

49:29 Court every court functions like the Supreme Court.

49:31 There are lots of state Supreme Courts that, for example, justices are elected.

49:36 They have term limits.

49:38 They have strict ethics codes.

49:40 They're beholden to the public in ways that this current Supreme Court is not.

49:45 And I mean, you had a situation where

49:47 the majority decision in Clay was written by Samuel Alito.

49:50 The night before that decision, he was at a Trump state dinner.

49:54 This is a guy whose wife flew an insurrection flag, okay?

49:59 I mean, there are a lot of red flags here in terms of just the actions of Alito,

50:06 not to mention how Gorsuch, Kavanaugh,

50:10 Barrett were put on the court in the first place, right?

50:14 I mean, you have one justice who occupies a current a stolen seat.

50:18 Another justice who had a FBI investigation swept totally under the rug.

50:23 Another justice who was confirmed eight days before the election

50:28 when they blocked someone eight months before the election.

50:31 I mean, so there's there's so many irregularities in terms

50:36 of democratic norms that this court has been constituted,

50:40 not to mention then it's a product of a lot

50:44 of anti-democratic actions and then through its opinions,

50:47 it then deepens the crisis in democracy

50:50 by doing things like gutting the Voting Rights Act.

50:53 All right, your book is called Minority Rule.

50:54 It was It was an excellent read,

50:56 but as we look at the moment that we're in right now,

50:59 it's hard to feel like that exact phenomenon isn't being

51:03 entrenched when you have a Republican Party that despite its unpopularity,

51:07 despite the fact that they're actually losing elections when when when voters

51:10 have the ability to vote directly

51:12 on those representatives or on those candidates,

51:15 um we are seeing a consolidation of power on on the right.

51:19 Um and and frankly, as we move forward,

51:22 a lot of things have to go perfectly for the left.

51:25 Like the left has to get full control

51:28 of government uh to be able to push anything forward.

51:30 The left has to have a big enough margin that the filibuster is eliminated.

51:35 Then the left has to have the stomach to do

51:37 something that they've not had the stomach to do,

51:38 which is uh to actually expand the court to get it done,

51:42 technically speaking, uh so that they can actually see this thing through.

51:45 And then they have to pass this legislation,

51:47 um pass these uh processes to expand the court.

51:50 So, everything has to go perfectly.

51:52 What level of confidence do you have um you know,

51:56 as somebody who's been talking about the issue of minority rule for so long,

51:59 that in this subsequent Congress, if Democrats do have full control,

52:03 they can get it done and kind of stem this this tidal wave

52:07 of anti-democratic authoritarian moves by Republican

52:10 Party that relies on entrenching minority rule?

52:13 Well, there's going to have to be a lot of pressure on them to do so.

52:17 And and just I I take the example of the gerrymandering arms race.

52:21 When Texas redrew its districts uh based on pressure from Trump,

52:25 there was the expectation that Republicans would just go state

52:27 by state by state and do this and Democrats wouldn't be

52:30 able to fight back cuz they were too invested in good

52:32 government or they were too hamstrung by laws in their states.

52:35 And the fact that you had California fight back, you had Virginia fight back.

52:39 I mean, that gave Democrats a spine.

52:42 Yeah.

52:42 And things that seemed impossible suddenly became possible.

52:46 And then we need that same kind of thing here.

52:48 Um it's not just about winning elections and the Democratic Party is

52:51 in a much better position to win elections in 2026 than they were before,

52:55 but then it's following through on winning those elections.

52:58 And that's why I think we need a popular movement uh to do this.

53:02 And Supreme Court reform has to go beyond just

53:06 the circle of good government types in Washington, D.C.

53:10 It has to be a mobilizing issue for people.

53:12 That you know, whatever issue you care about,

53:15 it is threatened by this current iteration of the Supreme Court.

53:18 I do think that is happening more and more though.

53:21 Dobbs really was a breaking point for a lot of people.

53:25 There have been a series of decisions since Dobbs.

53:27 Um I think the VRA decision has really

53:29 crystallized the threat to democracy uh that we're facing.

53:33 And so, I think more and more people care about reforming the Supreme Court.

53:37 More and more people have a negative opinion of the Supreme Court.

53:40 More and more people realize how nakedly partisan this court is.

53:45 Uh and I believe that Democratic activists, the Democratic base,

53:49 people in general just have to keep pushing um Democratic leaders on this.

53:53 Very rarely does change happen from the top in the Democratic Party.

53:57 It happens with with people pushing.

53:59 Um and this is an issue that people are going to have to continue to push on.

54:02 Well, look, you have been um a champion for this issue

54:05 for years and years and years before it was,

54:07 you know, the thing that we're talking about right now.

54:09 So, highly recommend for everybody who's watching and listening,

54:11 if you haven't yet had the opportunity to grab a copy of Minority Rule,

54:14 I'm going to put that link right here

54:15 on the screen and also in the post description.

54:17 If you're listening on the podcast, I'm going to throw it into the show notes.

54:19 Ari, as as always, thanks for the work you're doing.

54:22 Thanks for taking the time today.

54:24 Always great to talk to you, Brian.

54:25 Keep up the great work as well.

54:26 I'm joined now by All Rise News's Adam Classfeld.

54:29 Adam, we have major news that's going to impact

54:31 the entire country as it relates to mifepristone,

54:34 which is the abortion drug, which had been available by mail.

54:37 Can you explain what this ruling is?

54:40 The Fifth Circuit, one of the most

54:42 conservative judicial circuits in the country, an all-Republican panel,

54:46 uh essentially blocked uh regulations by the Biden administration

54:51 that made mifepristone available to anyone by mail through telemedicine.

54:57 It essentially, in a pausing a regulation,

55:01 reverts to the old regulation where you had to arrive in person.

55:06 And to give a little bit of uh perspective here,

55:09 mifepristone is used in 2/3 of abortions in the United States.

55:13 So, this is a ruling with widespread nationwide ramifications.

55:18 It's not only a ruling that in a case

55:21 This particular case was brought by Louisiana,

55:24 but it doesn't affect Louisiana only.

55:26 It affects the whole country.

55:28 So, is there an impact on states, for example, where abortion is still legal?

55:32 Does this just impact the states where abortion is illegal?

55:37 I'm just trying to like suss out who's going to be most impacted here.

55:40 Or is it everybody?

55:40 And even if you're trying to order

55:42 mifepristone via mail in California, you'll be impacted.

55:46 It That's exactly right, Brian.

55:47 It affects the entire country because it in reimposes the restrictions

55:53 that the medication needs to be picked up in person.

55:56 So, if you're in a rural county in California

56:00 and it's not so easy to go somewhere in person,

56:04 or if you're a victim of domestic violence and you it's not uh it's

56:10 not easy to go some place where you have to go face-to-face with a doctor,

56:16 um and you don't have the option as a result of this ruling to go by mail.

56:23 So, can you explain why,

56:24 if this is a ruling that's contained within the Fifth Circuit,

56:26 it has nationwide implications?

56:29 Because this is a ruling that's attacking the underlying regulation.

56:33 You had essentially the state of Louisiana filing a lawsuit

56:37 in the wake of the Dobbs ruling saying that Louisiana, for folks who don't know,

56:42 has one of the most restrictive abortion bans

56:45 that have been on the books since Roe v.

56:48 Wade was overturned.

56:49 So, they sued uh the state sued to block access to mifepristone

56:56 by mail saying that that was being used to circumvent their ban.

57:01 And the this was a three-judge panel the as I said earlier,

57:05 uh it was a three-judge panel of all Republican appointees,

57:09 two Trump appointees, written by a Trump appointee,

57:13 and it was a unanimous ruling by that court.

57:17 Now, how quickly do you anticipate there is going

57:20 to be an appeal up to the US Supreme Court?

57:22 And the follow-up to that, is there anything that you can read

57:25 from the tea leaves that might suggest where the US Supreme Court's position is

57:29 on this issue other than the fact that this is a 6-3 ideologically

57:34 aligned with the Republican Party bench full of justices who sit on the court?

57:39 Well, I would expect this is going to be appealed quite

57:42 quickly just because of the fact that as we went over,

57:46 this has nationwide impact.

57:47 It's a major ruling that's going to affect the entire country.

57:51 Uh but it as you said, this is a 6-3 ideologically aligned court.

57:57 We've seen that in very recent rulings.

58:00 Uh in the mifepristone case in particular,

58:04 um we do have to remember it wasn't that long ago that there

58:07 was a 9-0 ruling of the Supreme Court uh upholding access to mifepristone,

58:13 but that particular legal challenge was thrown out on standing grounds.

58:18 It was a ruling that was authored by Brett Kavanaugh.

58:21 So, it was a recent ruling where we could see, well,

58:25 the court did preserve in that case access to the drug,

58:29 but this is a very different set of facts.

58:32 This is the state bringing the case.

58:35 In the other Supreme Court case,

58:36 you had uh certain uh anti-abortion oriented doctors challenging it

58:43 and they didn't have standing to go up against the FDA.

58:47 Uh it could be a very difficult uh you know,

58:51 I wouldn't bet on the courts to protect access to this drug right now,

58:56 but we'll see what happens.

58:58 It's hard to predict.

59:00 Adam, [snorts] what kind of an impact is this going to have

59:02 on Americans who are seeking to exercise

59:05 some autonomy over their reproductive rights?

59:08 This is going to have a huge effect.

59:10 This is a major victory for anti-abortion uh

59:14 movement in the United States because it is

59:17 a blow against access to a drug used in 2/3 of abortions in the United States.

59:23 And that percentage went up dramatically after the overturning of Roe v.

59:28 Wade.

59:29 So, the impacts are going to be deep.

59:32 If you live in a rural area, as I said a little bit earlier,

59:35 if you're the victim of domestic violence and you and telemedicine

59:40 is a way that you can avoid detection in abusive relationship,

59:46 this is a type of thing where this ruling could have a dramatic impact.

59:50 Is there any way to circumvent this ruling if, for example,

59:54 you are a legislator or a governor in a blue state who recognizes

59:58 the importance of making sure that women have access to this type of medication?

1:00:02 You know, one of the things that's interesting to note here is that I believe

1:00:10 the Republicans understand that this is a very

1:00:13 unpopular policy to restrict access to this drug.

1:00:18 This was something and there's signs of it even in this litigation.

1:00:22 Right now, you have Trump's FDA doing a review

1:00:27 of mifepristone and undoubtedly this review by Robert F.

1:00:32 Kennedy Jr.'s Department of Health and Human

1:00:36 Services and within that the FDA is going to kind is going to come up with some

1:00:41 excuse to put some restrictions on this medication,

1:00:47 but it it's interesting because in this case

1:00:51 the Trump Department of Justice wanted to pause this litigation.

1:00:55 We are in a midterm season.

1:00:58 Yeah.

1:00:58 And it might be worth noting that it

1:01:02 it's that perhaps the administration is slow walking

1:01:05 this, trying to kick the can down the road

1:01:08 because they understand that this is a political loser.

1:01:12 Correct.

1:01:12 And I mean, we have seen this on top of other political losers as of late.

1:01:17 We have a failure to release the Epstein files despite repeated calls

1:01:21 [snorts] by virtually everybody who who

1:01:23 makes up this administration in the campaign.

1:01:25 We have seen an engagement in, you know,

1:01:28 a degree of foreign adventurism that we haven't seen

1:01:31 in quite a long time including an ongoing war

1:01:34 in Iran and this is at the hands of people

1:01:36 who beat their chest about no new foreign wars, no new wars in the Middle East.

1:01:41 We also were told that this administration was going to be America first.

1:01:43 Meanwhile, we've seen Medicaid cut from 17 million Americans.

1:01:47 We've seen ACA subsidies cut from 24 million Americans.

1:01:49 We've seen food assistance cut to the tune of 186 billion dollars.

1:01:53 Thanks to Trump's trade war, the cost of everything has surged.

1:01:56 We have gas now at its highest price in years,

1:01:59 virtually at its highest price ever.

1:02:01 And and this administration keeps piling on this stuff onto Americans,

1:02:07 which would be bad enough onto itself,

1:02:09 but even worse given the fact that they came into office

1:02:11 under this pretext that they would be looking out for Americans.

1:02:14 They would promote this America first agenda.

1:02:17 And we've got an administration full of people who can't stop raising prices,

1:02:21 can't stop taking health care away from people,

1:02:23 can't stop taking food assistance away from people,

1:02:25 can't stop siding with this criminal cabal of pedophiles.

1:02:30 And and this now would be just the latest the latest iteration,

1:02:34 the latest blow on top of all of that where yet again they're

1:02:38 engaging in this political loser where

1:02:40 they attack reproductive rights and abortion rights.

1:02:44 Absolutely.

1:02:45 I mean, this could wind up being a dog that caught the car.

1:02:48 That after succeeding in overturning Roe v.

1:02:53 Wade, you have certain parts of the country

1:02:56 that have supported Trump demanding policies that are vastly unpopular.

1:03:01 And it seems like this is happening now and I

1:03:03 think that this case and the fact that this has

1:03:06 this ruling has been put out by one of the most

1:03:09 conservative circuits in the country by a two Trump appointee,

1:03:15 all conservative appointee panel, it really ratchets up the stakes.

1:03:21 It casts things into stark relief and people can see that potentially,

1:03:27 at least on this issue,

1:03:29 yes, this is going to be appealed very likely to the Supreme Court.

1:03:34 The Supreme Court will have to issue a ruling,

1:03:37 but the court might not particularly save access to this drug

1:03:41 that is relied upon by people across the country.

1:03:45 And so it it shows the limits

1:03:48 of that and the importance of political engagement and engagement writ large.

1:03:54 All right, one last question here, Adam.

1:03:55 I want to take like a 30,000 foot view of this.

1:03:58 Let's say the Democrats are able to retake the White House in the 2028 election,

1:04:02 take office in 2029.

1:04:04 We have a Democratic FDA administrator in place.

1:04:07 Is there a world where this could be undone?

1:04:09 This action could be rolled back if we have someone

1:04:12 in that position who recognizes the importance

1:04:15 of mailing mifepristone or abortion medication?

1:04:19 Absolutely, Brian.

1:04:20 I mean, if in that world that you're describing,

1:04:23 we could have codified protections for abortion access.

1:04:27 In that world that you're describing,

1:04:30 one could have a different FDA there who are conducting studies based on sound

1:04:36 science that put together regulations that's based

1:04:40 on that science rather than this preordained conclusion.

1:04:44 So, that's a very different world.

1:04:46 It's a very different set of facts and it's less dependent

1:04:50 on what happens on a certain court on a certain day.

1:04:53 All right, well, we will of course stay on top of this issue.

1:04:56 For those of you watching right now,

1:04:57 if you're looking to support fearless independent media,

1:05:00 there is no better outlet than All Rise News.

1:05:02 That is Adam's outlet.

1:05:04 Covers all of these legal ins and outs on a daily basis on his own dime,

1:05:09 often flying around the country.

1:05:10 So, if you're looking again to support

1:05:12 an independent media outlet that you can trust 100%,

1:05:15 there's again no better choice than All Rise News.

1:05:18 So, I'm going to put that link right here

1:05:19 on the screen and also in the post description of this video.

1:05:22 Adam, as always, thanks so much for the time.

1:05:24 Thank you so much, Brian.

1:05:26 To listen to the audio version of this episode,

1:05:28 click the link right here on the screen and make sure to subscribe.

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1:05:36 [music]