16 Brutal Life Lessons for Ambitious People - Michael Smoak

0:00 I have a hard time celebrating my achievements because

0:02 in my mind it was my obligation to achieve it.

0:06 The dilemma of the high achiever.

0:08 I know I know you don't struggle with this at all.

0:10 Right.

0:10 I know this truly.

0:12 Game recognizes game as they say.

0:13 Yes.

0:13 Yes.

0:14 All all from a place of deep wounds and the desire to be adequate and enough.

0:17 Yeah.

0:18 I have a hard time celebrating my achievements

0:19 and wins because it was in my mind.

0:21 In my mind it was my obligation to achieve them.

0:23 And not only that, I think the group of people we hang out

0:26 with, you hang out with, I hang

0:27 out with, makes the exceptional seem extremely normal.

0:31 I was having a conversation the other day

0:32 with a friend who both of us had long runs.

0:35 And I was running 16, he was running 20.

0:38 And there was a time a couple of years ago where you couldn't

0:39 have paid me thousands of dollars to do anything but drive 16 miles.

0:43 And the fact of the matter is, the average person thinks that's crazy.

0:46 And there was a time where I was extremely proud of that.

0:48 I remember running my first 10 miles.

0:51 I remember where I was.

0:52 cuz I remember what I was doing.

0:53 It was sunny.

0:54 We were in Atlanta on the belt line and I remember when it

0:56 hit 10 and I hit stop on the Apple Watch and I went,

0:59 "Holy[ __] I just ran 10 miles." And then now it's just it's just a normal

1:05 and the carrot keeps moving for the high achiever.

1:08 So I think the battle has now become learning

1:11 to be content in the things that we achieve.

1:14 You know, this was this was a goal of mine

1:15 sitting down with you and being on this podcast.

1:17 I've listened to it for years

1:19 and it's incredible to be in it with you right now.

1:20 It's truly an honor because you can interview

1:22 anybody in the world and yet here I sit.

1:25 And so what what is the what is the line between sitting in the pride

1:29 and the humility and the graciousness and gratitude

1:32 of the achievement and then moving the needle?

1:34 I think you alluded to this in an episode you did a while ago talking about how

1:38 you forgot to celebrate the wins along the way

1:41 which led to an inevitable case of burnout.

1:44 And when we were here at the podcast,

1:45 at the four-way podcast the other day with [clears throat] Sean and George,

1:49 we talked about the importance of romanticizing every single thing in your life.

1:54 So that way when the big achievement comes, it doesn't feel like an obligation.

1:57 It feels like a victory and you can truly sit

1:59 in it before you move on to the next thing.

2:01 It's strange.

2:01 Yeah.

2:02 I think people that have high standards assume that they should always win.

2:08 They should always succeed.

2:10 And that turns success from a cause

2:13 for celebration into the minimum level of acceptable performance.

2:18 Like success simply becomes what's expected of you

2:21 and anything less than success would be a failure.

2:24 And yeah, it's the habituation that we see hydonic adaptation.

2:28 People talk about it for you buy a new car and it's

2:30 all exciting and then pretty quickly you get used to it.

2:33 You move into a new house and you're thinking about it for so long and you

2:36 were looking on Zupler and right move and you

2:38 were comparing it and this is what we're

2:39 and then it's just the place that you put your shoes at the end of the day

2:43 after a while but a much more sort

2:45 of penicious place for this is in personal growth.

2:47 It's in your own capacity.

2:48 So previously your old PR that you celebrated at the time is now a warm-up set.

2:55 And the same thing goes for the status that you have

3:00 and your precision with the way that you do your art form,

3:03 the speed at which you can complete a particular task,

3:07 whether you're a salesperson or you manage a retail

3:10 store or you write a blog or whatever,

3:12 you want to permanently pushing the limits.

3:14 And as you raise the bar, that means that you will always feel like you suck

3:19 because your standards continually outstrip your ability to deliver them.

3:23 And that's good in some ways because it keeps forcing you to progress.

3:27 But it does mean that you live in this gap, right?

3:29 You don't live in the gain,

3:30 the comparison between where you were and where you are.

3:32 You live in the gap between where you are and where you want to be.

3:35 That's not where you could be.

3:36 Cuz sometimes you can want to be further than where you could be.

3:40 And I told you that story about Alexander the Great,

3:42 which is how he [snorts] we read the quote

3:47 of Alexander saying and Alexander wept for he saw

3:50 there were no more worlds to conquer as his ambition

3:54 being able to outstrip reality's ability to challenge him.

3:58 Oh, he was bigger than the world and he reached

4:01 the edge of it and couldn't keep going but would have done.

4:04 But that's not the actual quote.

4:05 The actual quote is him realizing that there are infinite

4:09 worlds and he hasn't even yet become the lord of one.

4:12 So he's crying at how puny and minuscule his accomplishments are.

4:16 And I think that that's actually much closer to how we all feel.

4:19 Like who has ever reached the edge of their ambition?

4:22 Their ambition continues to outstrip it.

4:24 You're right.

4:24 If you raise your standards,

4:25 you regularly disparage your accomplishments even in the process of them.

4:30 And there's a John Bellian song uh Why with Luke Combmes and in it he says

4:34 if the higher I climb is the further I fall then why love anything at all.

4:39 He's talking about opening up to someone.

4:41 But I think the same thing works for just hard charging and overachieving.

4:46 That why if I permanently overachieve then eventually I might get there but

4:50 you never arrive.

4:51 When you said I think you alluded to a version of it

4:52 in there but you said something to me the other day.

4:55 Our desire always outpaces reality's ability to meet it.

5:00 Yes.

5:00 And I chose to just listen to people like you, people like Jim Carrey who say,

5:06 "I I pray that everyone gets rich and famous and has

5:09 everything they ever want so they can realize it's not the answer."

5:12 And a lot of people go, "Okay, great.

5:13 But let me just do that anyway." And then they get to the hadonic treadmill

5:16 and then they get to the end of their rope.

5:18 There is no end, right?

5:19 The goal is not money.

5:21 It's not status.

5:23 It's not even authenticity, which is something I speak on a lot.

5:26 For me, the goal of authenticity is the byproduct of that.

5:28 The goal is, in my opinion,

5:30 to stay tapped into inspiration and deeper levels of inspiration.

5:33 And there are things that always get in the way.

5:35 Well, I want more money or I get an idea and I want to act on that idea.

5:39 But I just chose to listen to you guys talking about how

5:43 you get everything you want and then you realize it's not the answer.

5:46 Why would I then go, "Yeah, but screw what they said.

5:48 I'm just going to do it anyway so I can be in the same state of not suffering,

5:51 but mild discomfort when I realize I didn't get what I truly wanted." M

5:55 and so with the Alexander the Great quote where he

5:58 realizes how minuscule he is and he weeps over that.

6:02 Maybe there's value in realizing how minuscule we are

6:05 and being grateful and how minuscule we are because then

6:08 all we have to worry about is and this is

6:11 where my faith comes in just being a servant.

6:13 For me, I feel fulfilled if I'm serving others.

6:17 And that's a really broad mission that can look a lot of different ways.

6:21 It can be saying hello to Gerard,

6:23 the guy I crossed the crosswalk with today outside of my building.

6:26 It can be asking the barista how their day is going.

6:29 It can be putting on a podcast that a whole lot of people are going

6:32 to see with the intent of delivering a message

6:33 that might make one of their lives better.

6:35 If I just say, "How can I serve someone today?" Then that's fulfillment.

6:38 And Tony Robbins says material success without

6:41 spiritual fulfillment can feel like the ultimate failure.

6:44 And that's why you [clears throat] get people

6:45 at the top with all the money and the cars

6:46 and the women and the success and they feel empty

6:48 inside and they take their own life cuz they're depressed.

6:51 So for me, I think the antidote is realizing we're dust and not

6:54 weeping within that, but being deeply deeply grateful that that's all we are.

6:58 There's a obviously a lot of sexiness around momento mori.

7:01 People think about remember that you're going to die stoicism thing.

7:04 They've got it on a coin that Ryan Holidayiday has given to them.

7:07 I think that there's a momento mory for productivity.

7:10 you will never get on top of all of the tasks that you have to do.

7:13 This is an Oliver Burkeman thing where he says, uh,

7:16 there will never come a day where you have completed all of your tasks.

7:19 I think about the fact that one day I'll

7:20 die and my email inbox will continue to accumulate messages.

7:26 People will get pissed that I'm not replying to their emails,

7:29 not knowing that I'm dead.

7:31 Yeah.

7:31 And maybe that'll be lots of people because

7:33 it'll happen suddenly and I'll be young and maybe

7:35 it'll be a few people because I'll be

7:38 old and they'll have known about it one day.

7:41 That will happen.

7:42 It will keep going.

7:43 So you you have this it's kind of like workload entropy.

7:49 You are going to be defeated by the entropy of this workload

7:52 bearing down on you and it's just never going to stop.

7:54 So, I think realizing that's not a morbid,

7:57 but it should feel liberating, which is I think what you're getting at.

8:02 You should be liberated by this.

8:03 Look, you're never going to get on top of it all.

8:05 Yes, there's things that you need to do.

8:06 You want accolades, you want status,

8:08 acclaim, external achievements, cool, go get it.

8:11 Just know that if it feels a bit more hollow than you thought it would,

8:15 that that's kind of by design.

8:18 It's always going to be that.

8:19 And a much quicker way to try and feel fulfilled is to go,

8:26 "Huh, what if I just had fun?

8:28 What would it be like if I had a little

8:29 bit more fun?" This guy asked me last night, um, I have this burning ambition.

8:34 The Q&A of one of my work in progress shows, I have this burning ambition.

8:37 I can't turn it off.

8:39 What should I do?

8:41 I said, just become really, really successful.

8:44 [laughter] That's the quickest solution.

8:48 Use the fuel.

8:49 Hey man, I've got this massive gas tank and it

8:51 won't I I can't take my foot off the gas pedal.

8:53 All right, drive until you run out of fuel.

8:55 Like just just go keep going and then eventually you'll run out.

8:59 So, it's a strange one though, right?

9:01 Because obviously the the difficulty of this discussion is that saying

9:05 to anybody who has a burning ambition that the end result

9:10 of their ambition is not going to make them happy is like

9:13 telling a hungry man that food doesn't really matter as a fat man.

9:18 and uh you're stripping away from people the very

9:21 fuel that they want to use to keep going and it feels a little bit like

9:24 rug pulling someone's uh dream out from underneath them.

9:27 So, it's a very contentious uh point to talk about,

9:30 but I think I'm seeing so many

9:31 more people discuss it as people speedrun careers.

9:34 You people can get to the top of a career in pretty

9:37 short amount of time and then it's not what they expected.

9:40 So, I think more and more people are

9:42 having this uh mini existential quarter life crisis thing.

9:46 Mhm.

9:46 Well, I think the the objective then is not to use

9:50 these things to fulfill a hole or a longing inside of you.

9:54 It's to treat it like part of the game.

9:56 It's all just fun.

9:58 Growing the social media, growing the podcast,

10:00 doing the things that I'm doing is not

10:02 because I'm searching for a deeper meaning within myself.

10:04 Like that guy saying,

10:05 I have I have relentless burning ambition and I can't get rid of it.

10:08 You're right.

10:08 He shouldn't try to bury the thing that's on top.

10:11 he should explore it and go into it and understand it and then decide if

10:14 it's valid or not and then can make a decision about his identity from there.

10:18 That's how I view this.

10:19 There was a time where I remember hearing I alluded to it earlier,

10:23 but hearing you talk about hitting the subscriber

10:26 milestones for the podcast and just going,

10:28 "Okay, on to the next one." Or the greatest you had was maybe a dinner.

10:32 Yeah.

10:31 That you went through with,

10:33 but you continued to dangle the carrot and you got burned out.

10:35 And I remember thinking, "A million followers on TikTok is going

10:39 to feel different." And then it happened.

10:40 And then I just didn't It was okay, I'm going to go eat dinner now.

10:43 I just don't know what to do with this.

10:45 And so it's it's a fun milestone.

10:47 It's fun to celebrate, but it's not what our identity is within.

10:51 And I think that's what a lot of people are looking for.

10:54 They're looking for the opportunity, the ability to feel whole,

10:57 to feel adequate, to feel enough, important, and significant.

11:00 That's what a lot of people are looking for.

11:02 Significance, seen, belonging, mattering.

11:03 Yeah.

11:04 Seen, heard, and understood.

11:05 If you can't talk about it, you aren't healed from it.

11:08 What's that mean to you?

11:11 You're only as healed from something as your ability to share it.

11:15 It means everything to me.

11:18 So, my dad passed away January 19th of 2025.

11:21 And it was a long, arduous, painful process.

11:25 Moved home after a long breakup.

11:26 Lived with that person.

11:28 Came home to reset.

11:29 Thought I just get to spend some time

11:30 with the parents before I moved to Florida.

11:32 And then my dad's not quite right.

11:34 I hadn't seen him in about a month.

11:35 So, he was regressing quickly.

11:36 And I could tell he didn't look right.

11:39 Now, what I didn't know would happened would be over the next seven months,

11:42 his health slowly regressing with no real answers as to what was wrong with him,

11:48 which was really the crazy part.

11:50 We didn't know what was killing my dad,

11:51 which is a really weird place to be cuz it was the epitome of helpless.

11:56 There was nothing the doctors could do, I could do.

11:59 And we'll maybe we'll dive deeper into the story later,

12:02 but I remember not even being able to answer the question,

12:06 "How's your dad doing?" without that pain or that tightness

12:09 in my chest and my throat coming up.

12:11 I couldn't even say he's fine.

12:13 He's not doing well.

12:14 I couldn't share anything about it.

12:16 And 36 hours before he passed, I went and gave a presentation and I battled it.

12:22 But he insisted that I go give this talk at a conference in Dallas

12:25 and fly right back home because I was afraid he'd pass while I was gone.

12:30 And he said, "What are you worried?

12:32 I'm going to die?" And I said, "Yeah." And he said,

12:35 "So what?" We've said everything we need to say.

12:37 Go live your life.

12:38 I'll be mad if you don't do this.

12:40 And I did it and he and he hung on.

12:42 But I remember there's a part in that presentation where I talk about

12:46 conviction and how important health is and how that's one of my core

12:50 messages in my content is you have you can have a laundry list

12:53 of problems until you have a health problem and then there's only one problem.

12:56 And I lived it.

12:57 But I couldn't even talk about my dad cuz there's

13:00 a picture of him on the slide when I get to that.

13:03 And I told you about this and it was the first time I'd ever

13:05 shared that story and it's the day we found out he was going to die.

13:08 I took that photo for me.

13:09 I didn't think I'd ever share it.

13:11 But it's powerful because it was the it was the moment that I remember

13:15 being or thinking as a kid would be the worst day of my life.

13:20 And I could not I was on stage and I just broke.

13:22 I had to go silent for 30 seconds in front

13:25 of 300 people and gather myself because I wasn't healed.

13:30 I hadn't done the work.

13:30 I hadn't let myself grieve.

13:32 I hadn't let myself be angry.

13:34 I hadn't let myself be sad.

13:36 And now I can sit here with you on the eighth biggest podcast in the world.

13:42 Congratulations.

13:43 Cool.

13:43 Suck me up.

13:44 Uh I will uh and and tell that full story

13:48 without pain because I went all the way into the emotion.

13:52 So you cannot I don't believe I believe this.

13:56 You cannot heal what you cannot feel and you

13:59 cannot feel what you are unwilling to reveal.

14:02 And for me, it was about talking about how I felt, letting myself be angry,

14:07 and telling someone,

14:08 "I'm angry at my dad." That he didn't look after his health more tightly.

14:12 But my first instinct was to manage the emotion.

14:14 How dare I be angry?

14:15 He's dying.

14:16 How dare I do that?

14:18 But that's not how you heal.

14:20 We don't we don't heal and do the work

14:22 by burying our emotions cuz what you bury will bury you.

14:25 It will come around in your subconscious mind and run the show.

14:28 So instead, I allowed myself,

14:30 I gave myself full permission to explore the emotion

14:32 of anger and then asked myself, is this valid?

14:35 Is this real?

14:36 No.

14:37 But I couldn't get there until I processed it.

14:39 And then it was sadness and grief and guilt and at times happiness.

14:45 Full permission, full permission to express the full

14:47 spectrum of emotion with which I was existing in.

14:51 And now I can use that story to help people.

14:55 And that is an incredible source of fulfillment.

14:57 And I heard a a great Christian creator say once,

15:01 "Your purpose in this life is to take what God delivered you

15:04 from and turn around and help other people do the same thing." And for me,

15:07 my biggest fear was always my dad dying.

15:09 It was the grief that would come with that.

15:11 But I made it to the other side.

15:13 And now I get to share that story because I am healed from it.

15:16 I don't cry or choke up when I talk about my old man.

15:19 And there was a time where if you'd asked me this a year ago,

15:23 I'd have to probably just say, "Hold on," and pause.

15:26 So that's what that means to me.

15:27 If you if you cannot talk about it, you are not healed from it.

15:31 And it will run your life subconsciously in some way.

15:34 Your relationships, your work, your body, your health.

15:38 So whatever is stirring around inside you that you suppress,

15:41 understand that suppression of expression leads to depression.

15:44 And until you express those emotions,

15:46 you are not going to be delivered from them.

15:50 It's interesting when we try to dictate the way that we should feel.

15:55 I'm angry.

15:56 I shouldn't be angry.

15:57 It's like, but you are.

15:58 And I think this is a big part of what act therapy is trying to achieve,

16:03 acceptance and commitment therapy,

16:05 that the acceptance part is this is just happening and I

16:10 have to allow it to sort of move through me.

16:12 And if you don't, that's when you

16:14 begin a relationship not just with the emotion,

16:17 but with your relationship to the relationship of the emotion.

16:20 I shouldn't feel shame.

16:22 And then you feel bitterness about your shame.

16:23 And then you feel frustration at your bitterness about your shame.

16:25 And it's this infinite regress of saying things to yourself about something.

16:29 My partner did something and it it really made

16:34 me it made me feel made me feel agitated,

16:36 made me feel maybe envious or insecure.

16:40 I shouldn't feel insecure.

16:42 You do.

16:43 You're allowed to feel it.

16:44 It doesn't mean that you need to act on it.

16:46 And maybe you do need to act on it, but if you just deny the emotion,

16:49 I think there's a lot of insight that comes out of that.

16:52 But it's not cool to do that.

16:56 It correct.

16:57 It doesn't flex particularly well.

16:59 It isn't.

17:02 We confuse suppression for strength and they're not the same thing at all.

17:08 Yeah.

17:08 What's that John Malaney bit?

17:10 I had Irish parents.

17:11 So my dad's belief was I'm going to take this emotion

17:13 and then bury it down and then one day I'll die.

17:16 [laughter] That's the Irish Catholic approach to a masculine emotion.

17:21 But you're right.

17:21 Most people are in intellectualizing and managing their emotions.

17:26 I'm pissed, but I shouldn't be.

17:28 Well, now you don't get the clarity on the other side of the processed emotion.

17:31 On, in my opinion, on the other side of processed emotion is divine revelation.

17:35 Like, I got to nothing but love and gratitude

17:38 for the relationship that I have with my old man.

17:40 On the other side of letting myself be angry,

17:42 sad, and grieve instead of burying it.

17:45 But that's an that is also an uncomfortable process.

17:50 It's not suffering, but it's pain.

17:51 It's a lot of pain.

17:52 What did Arthur Brooks say on your show?

17:54 Pain is uh or suffering is pain times resistance.

17:59 Mhm.

17:59 And if you can just eliminate the resistance,

18:01 pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional.

18:03 And suffering becomes part of the equation when you

18:05 resist the pain instead of letting it move through you.

18:09 Not be consumed by it, but let it teach you something.

18:13 Understand it and then move through it.

18:15 And then on the other side, that is the work.

18:17 Everyone says, "Oh, I've done a lot of work on theelves on myself." That's

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19:41 What did you learn from that process with your dad?

19:43 What was it like going through that?

19:45 Oh man, I was having a conversation with my friend Chris Turner.

19:51 His dad passed eight months before mine and it was right

19:55 in the time when he got sick and I was in denial.

19:58 I was trying to get him better.

19:59 Doctor's appointments, supplements, you name it.

20:01 I wasn't ready to surrender to the experience.

20:05 And Chris brought up this interesting point and I'll never forget.

20:09 He said, "In tribes and other cultures all across the world,

20:13 there's a coming of man ritual.

20:16 The boy leaves the tribe, goes and gets the lion,

20:18 comes back a man, goes and hunts the elk,

20:19 comes back a man." There's this thing that turns that is

20:23 a definitive turn in his age from boyhood to manhood.

20:26 And in America, we don't have that.

20:29 And Chris pointed out, even in the Lion King,

20:32 it's a great example of this, right?

20:33 Mufasa dies and Simba goes on this great

20:36 journey and acquires friends along the way.

20:38 Experiences adversity, develops enemies, almost dies a few times,

20:41 comes out the other side king of the pride.

20:44 For me, my dad's death and the months that led

20:47 up to that of pain and suffering and anxiety,

20:50 I think were the the parts of me that were still a kid I had to familiarize

20:56 myself with, but they couldn't necessarily stay with me

20:59 if I was going to endure that experience.

21:01 So, I think that truthfully, I think I became a man on the other side of that.

21:05 [clears throat] But what I learned was my nervous system's threshold

21:11 for stress was a lot greater than I thought it was.

21:14 Like, I really, dude, there were nights, man,

21:17 where you're constantly on edge when someone is that sick.

21:21 So, my dad had something called orthostatic hypotension,

21:24 which means if he stands up, the blood can't adequately pump to his brain.

21:28 So, his blood pressure plummets, which means

21:31 that kind of POTS, similar to POTS.

21:33 Uh, I'm not sure.

21:34 It was a byproduct of a vein in his liver being totally destroyed.

21:37 That was really the root of all of his issues.

21:39 [sighs and gasps] So, he would stand up and his blood pressure would drop

21:41 to like 80 over 50 and he would pass out.

21:46 And so, my dad was a massive fall risk.

21:48 And so, there was always anxiety with him just

21:50 getting up to go get a glass of water.

21:52 And there were just so many nights.

21:53 I remember at least half a dozen times my mom

21:56 cuz I moved home to help care for him.

21:58 Just barreling into my room.

22:00 He's fallen again.

22:01 I need your help.

22:02 And going from a dead sleep to having to go pick your dad up

22:05 off the floor and like clean the blood off his head at 3:00 a.m.

22:09 Dude, that'll light up your CNS.

22:12 But it taught me what I was capable of.

22:14 I I could handle so much more stress than I realized.

22:20 And it dissolved me of my ego.

22:23 I I remember people kept asking me how I was doing when[ __] kind

22:27 of hit the fan on the internet and I was getting all the crazy

22:29 comments and I just kept thinking like I had to carry my dying father

22:34 to the bath and dress him like you think an internet comment bothers me.

22:39 It doesn't like I know what real suffering is and I'm grateful for that.

22:43 Like I really am because it it it raised my threshold for stress so much.

22:48 I'm so much more patient.

22:49 I'm so much more empathetic to people's pain.

22:53 I understand the value in hardship.

22:57 I appreciate the relationship I had more and I did a ton when he was alive,

23:00 but more than I ever could now that he's gone because I remember

23:07 I had a I had Peter Cone on my podcast and we had

23:09 a conversation around my dad and he started sort of coaching me through

23:13 it and he noticed I kept saying I lost my dad and he said,

23:16 "I want you to stop saying that.

23:18 You didn't lose anything.

23:19 you found a relationship that was wonderful enough to feel this much

23:23 pain for, which means at one point there was great joy.

23:26 And so what I learned from that is that I'm incredibly blessed to have a man

23:30 that if at the end of my life I'm half the human being he was, I'll be proud.

23:34 Half the dad, half the husband, half the person, I'll be proud.

23:39 I learned what really matters.

23:42 Cuz at the time, my internet career was starting to really take off.

23:45 But all I really cared about was my dad getting better.

23:49 And I heard a sermon from the guy that I the church I go to in Atlanta 2819,

23:54 Pastor Philip Anthony Mitchell talks about when

23:56 the church was really starting to grow.

23:57 And I didn't know this.

23:58 This was the craziest part.

23:59 I picked a sermon during their period of rest in December from 2 years ago.

24:03 And he's talking about the tension between what you

24:07 want and what God's will for your life is.

24:10 The tension between that and how painful that can be.

24:13 and his dad was dying at the time that 2819,

24:16 which is now the fastest growing church in the world,

24:19 was really starting to explode.

24:21 And all he wanted was his dad to be better.

24:23 He didn't care about the success.

24:26 He was so grounded in his real life that he was almost

24:30 detached from whatever was to come next with the success of the church.

24:33 And now it's this incredible life-changing impactful

24:36 thing for millions of people across the world.

24:38 And so it taught me to stay grounded no matter

24:41 how crazy or cool the achievements of this career get.

24:45 And they are incredible.

24:46 And I am overwhelmed with gratitude that because

24:49 people chose to watch my videos on the internet, I get to sit down with you.

24:52 That's the coolest thing in the world, man.

24:53 Like I live in a video game.

24:56 Mhm.

24:55 And I'm just trying to steward it properly.

24:57 I'm trying to steward the blessing properly.

24:59 So I'd say the biggest lesson is that I realize that every hard

25:03 thing we go through makes us more of who we're meant to be.

25:06 And I think who God designed us to be.

25:08 I referenced that scripture to you the other day.

25:11 James chapter 1 verse 2-4.

25:14 It says, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you face trials of many kinds.

25:17 Because you know the testing of your faith produces perseverance.

25:20 Let perseverance run its course so that you may be complete and lacking nothing.

25:26 I am more myself.

25:27 I feel more myself and more rooted in my sense of identity, who I am,

25:32 and and what I feel God's called me to do than

25:35 I ever was before I went through that with my old man.

25:37 And that's why I think we should count it all joy.

25:40 The worst thing I've ever been through has been, God willing,

25:43 somebody else's greatest breakthrough because I've helped them battle grief,

25:47 manage grief, feel grief, and come out the other side liberated from it.

25:51 And that's the greatest gift I could have ever been given.

25:55 I had a conversation with a landerbot on toward

25:57 the back end of last year and he has this line.

25:58 He says, "The best men have been broken." And uh I asked him, "How can you tell?

26:05 What do you mean and how can you tell?" He says, "There's just a there's a look.

26:10 It's a twinkle in the eye.

26:12 There's a kind of humility.

26:14 There's a humbleness.

26:15 There's a a recognition of their own limits, even if they're really high.

26:20 And I definitely see that especially after getting

26:25 kicked in the nuts permanently for the last

26:27 2 years with my health and having to manage an awful lot of things.

26:32 It does push you when you're going against the grain of life.

26:36 You begin to look at your behavior and your patterns and your motivations

26:42 and your goals under more of a microscope

26:45 than you do when things are going well.

26:47 like you feel the texture of existence more kind of like

26:50 swimming into a river as opposed to being lazy rivered down it.

26:54 You feel all of the small elements come past you

26:59 and that's a real uncomfortable situation to be in at the time,

27:04 but it's a beautiful gift afterward.

27:06 And uh yeah, I I agree as well

27:09 that your almost all of the greatest accomplishments that you've done

27:13 in your entire life have been germinated from your lowest points

27:19 and adversity is a terrible thing to waste in that regard.

27:22 Let me ask you, when you were going through all

27:24 of that and and I told you how much I appreciated you,

27:28 this probably one of the more vulnerable things you've ever put on the internet.

27:31 I mean, it's you in hospital beds getting blood transfusions,

27:34 all kinds of crazy[ __] It's very vulnerable

27:36 and that's that's a superpower by the way.

27:38 You probably empowered I mean I know you empowered me to talk

27:40 about it cuz I went and made an episode that day.

27:43 I was like, "Hey guys,

27:44 I feel like[ __] all the time and I've been pretending I don't." Yeah.

27:47 So, I'm grateful that you did that.

27:49 Thank you.

27:49 You're welcome.

27:50 But when you were in that, what really what mattered to you

27:54 in that moment or in those months because I know it got bad at times.

27:58 was very protracted, you know,

28:00 from about 2 years ago was when I started trying to unearth what was going on.

28:09 And about two and a half years ago when I got co before I went on tour

28:12 with James uh was when I started to notice I was getting a bit more tired.

28:18 I didn't really want to see my friends so much on a nighttime.

28:20 That was strange.

28:21 I was feeling latitude, which is the emotion of being ill.

28:26 Uh I didn't want to eat new things.

28:27 didn't want to go to new places and I

28:30 was getting more tired and I was getting a bit

28:32 of brain fog and I was ripping 2023 I was it felt like my brain was on fire.

28:37 It felt like I was permanently on cocaine.

28:39 It was like being 23 again and uh I noticed

28:43 the change and I didn't like it and that got

28:48 worse and worse and worse throughout 2024 and it

28:51 got to the stage where we would be flying around.

28:53 And I remember we did a trip to New York with Gym Shark and then I flew

28:56 to Florida to do Chris Bumstead and Ben

28:59 Shapiro and I we arrive in[ __] Baton Rouge.

29:05 Is that in Florida?

29:06 Is that what I'm talking about?

29:07 Yeah, Baton Rouge.

29:08 No, that's in Louisiana.

29:09 No.

29:09 Where the[ __] was it?

29:10 Where the[ __] did we go?

29:13 Boca Raton.

29:15 The right amount of Boca Raton.

29:18 Whatever the[ __] that's not I mean it's geographically very far away,

29:21 but linguistically it's right next to Yeah, they're both[ __] holes.

29:23 It's all right.

29:23 [laughter] No, Boke is nice.

29:28 Um, so I'm uh we fly in and we've got an episode the next

29:34 day or maybe we'd recorded with Ben that day and it was 6:30 p.m.

29:38 at night and I went to bed and I woke up at 7:00 a.m.

29:42 in the morning.

29:42 The guys had gone for dinner and done had some adventure

29:46 thing and I just felt so on the outside, you know.

29:50 I felt very much on the outside.

29:51 I wasn't me.

29:52 I didn't have access to me.

29:53 And it just kept getting worse.

29:54 It kept getting worse.

29:55 Kept getting worse.

29:56 It was getting more tired.

29:56 And I was trying to take a break.

29:58 I wasn't pushing myself as hard.

30:00 So, I'm like, I'm being more gentle with myself.

30:02 And the more gentle I am, the more tired I get.

30:04 And all I wanted was to have access back to the texture of my mind.

30:08 I really love inhabiting my own mind.

30:12 It's a really lovely place to be for the most part.

30:14 Um, but I I remember one of my friends, her dad was ill and ill for a long time.

30:22 and was getting his mental capacities were being diminished over time.

30:30 And he turned to her once in the hospital bed and he said,

30:34 "This illness has taken everything from me,

30:36 it's even taken myself." And I think what

30:39 he meant by that was especially for smart

30:42 people or people that are competent and feel

30:44 like they have agency and sovereignty in the world,

30:47 what you rely on is your mental faculties.

30:50 I think homo's got two fears in life.

30:53 One is chronic pain and the other is

30:56 dementia because the first one is just suffering

31:00 for the rest of time and the second

31:01 one makes him a burden that can't fix himself.

31:03 And um that that really stuck with me and that I don't

31:07 know why it's one of those random lines that somebody just says

31:09 about someone else and it stuck with me and then as I

31:12 started to go through it I realized oh this is what I feel.

31:16 This is how I feel.

31:17 I feel like this is taking away my own capacity to fix myself.

31:21 And what if this spiral just continues to go down?

31:24 Continues to go down.

31:25 And um I guess one other kind of interesting

31:28 lesson is how hard it is to not try hard.

31:34 You need to try hard at not trying hard.

31:36 To be gentle with yourself requires effort.

31:38 But if you apply too much effort, that's no longer being gentle with yourself.

31:41 And then if you get it wrong,

31:42 you start to whip yourself into submission

31:44 for not being sufficiently gentle with yourself,

31:46 which is not being gentle about your ungentleness.

31:50 And you know, a lot of this, I think,

31:52 is to do with the shame, the suppression of things.

31:55 Um, but it's also to do with your patterns.

31:58 What am I used to?

31:59 What's the pace that I'm used to working at?

32:01 You know, there will be lots of people for whom

32:05 this isn't going to hit them until they're 60.

32:07 And there will also be people for whom it'll hit them when they're 15.

32:10 And you think, "Fuck, I really didn't want to have to learn this lesson.

32:15 Not now.

32:16 Why now?

32:16 Why does it have to be now?

32:17 Could it not have been?

32:19 I don't deserve it now." [sighs and gasps]

32:22 But the realization is you're not bulletproof,

32:26 but you do have more capacity than you think.

32:29 So, it's a recognition of resilience and fragility at the same time.

32:35 And I think that's where the humility comes from.

32:38 That's where the empathy comes from.

32:39 And that's what Alan was talking about.

32:41 But I I love that line,

32:42 adversity is a terrible thing to waste because you develop

32:45 a a chip on your shoulder and you have something to prove.

32:52 Again, especially after a while, people run out of gas some regard.

32:56 you know, the kids that didn't believe in you in school,

33:00 the bullies that mocked you, or the teacher that wasn't supportive,

33:04 or the coach that benched you,

33:07 that will power a young person for a good while, but not forever.

33:12 Mhm.

33:12 And it's kind of nice to make an existential enemy every so often.

33:16 I think it's good to just have for this season I've got a new there's a new

33:20 bad guy in town and this time it's this thing and I'm not going to be

33:23 able to get my revenge on him now but in a couple of seasons I actually

33:27 reckon that this is going to be the next metamorphosis thing that I come out of.

33:32 And uh it's like a little pit stop or a little lily pad

33:36 that you can jump off to get to whatever the next level is,

33:38 but it requires you to take a dip first.

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34:56 What's the biggest lesson you learned from that period

34:59 of having such an issue with cognition

35:02 and energy in a world where your cognition

35:04 and energy is critical for your success?

35:05 Literally the only thing that I do to affect a particular mold especially

35:10 affects a particular area of the brain that's uh associated with word recall.

35:14 All I do is recall words.

35:16 It was like a purpose-built curse just for me.

35:19 Like somebody had designed a malady only

35:22 to impact the things that I needed to do.

35:24 I could have been a lumberjack and I'm sure I would have been tired,

35:27 but I would have still been able to chop wood.

35:31 Not Not this job.

35:33 That was not good.

35:34 The single biggest lesson that I learned throughout all

35:36 of that, [sighs and gasps] one that comes to mind,

35:47 one that comes to mind is recognizing the fact

35:49 that the people around you really do want to help.

35:53 And that sounds like a very basic[ __] insight, but I think a lot of people,

35:57 especially if you're the competent one in your friend group,

35:59 if you listen to podcasts like mine, watch content like yours,

36:02 you know, you're teaching your friends from the outside.

36:05 You look like you've got it all together.

36:07 You're probably a leader in some form or another,

36:10 or maybe you're you have a good education, or you you go to the gym and you sort

36:15 your life out and your friends are the fat messes, not you.

36:19 Your friends are the fat messes.

36:21 And that often, I think,

36:23 makes it almost intimidating for our friends to help us cuz you go,

36:27 "What am I going to what am I going to tell Michael?

36:30 He's got it.

36:30 He got it all together.

36:32 How can I step in and say, "Hey, man,

36:33 are you you seem a little Are you okay?" or whatever.

36:38 He'll have it all.

36:39 Or there'll be somebody way more competent than me

36:41 in his life that's able to step in and help.

36:44 But, um, leaning on people, reaching out and genuinely asking for help.

36:49 I think I probably received more hugs in 2025

36:53 than the decade prior to that sort of all combined.

36:57 Uh, you know, I was doing before live shows.

37:00 If I was feeling really, really bad,

37:02 I'd have Bennett giving me a hug while praying over me.

37:05 And it just felt really nice.

37:07 It was support stealing a bit of his nervous

37:10 system and spirituality at the same time.

37:12 That was cool.

37:13 But it was just good.

37:15 It was it was a being able to lean on people as a an only child.

37:21 It's something that you you have to learn through instruction, not emergence.

37:32 You don't it's not you're not born with it.

37:35 You know, by age five,

37:36 you've known what it is to have a fight with your brother and then

37:39 hug and wake up the next morning because you don't hate each other.

37:41 And that's what it means for you and someone

37:43 to disagree but still be on the same team.

37:46 You don't there is no learning that at any point.

37:50 So, uh yeah.

37:51 Um the ability to lean on people without feeling less than was a big part of it.

37:55 Were you scared?

37:56 Yeah.

37:57 Terrified.

37:58 Terrified.

37:59 I finally felt like I'd arrived.

38:01 Like I've done all of this stuff and I finally got

38:04 myself to this country I dreamed to live in for so long.

38:06 And you the reason that you do the work is to get

38:12 to the stage where you can do this, have my own space,

38:17 and have my own team and finally talk to the people that I

38:19 want to for as long as I want about what I want.

38:22 Just as it felt like I'd got my foot in the door and arrived,

38:27 it felt like that had been whipped out from underneath.

38:29 It felt unfair.

38:30 I think that's what a lot of people feel.

38:33 Unfairness.

38:34 I think about this.

38:35 Uh I wonder how many people died.

38:39 Someone gets hit by a car.

38:41 Somebody gets uh shot on purpose or accidentally

38:44 stray bullets or there's a mugging that goes

38:47 wrong or somebody slips and falls from something

38:49 and in the final few moments before they die,

38:51 how many of them were just surprised or felt like it was unfair?

38:58 I that has to be a huge proportion of people.

39:01 I wasn't supposed to.

39:02 This wasn't supposed to be me and that's it.

39:07 So, it felt unfair.

39:09 Yeah.

39:09 Scared.

39:09 Yeah.

39:10 Well, I'm glad you're for the most part on the other side of that now.

39:13 It seems slowly one step at a time.

39:16 The the world keeps on providing me new challenges to get over.

39:19 But I'm definitely [gasps] I I I I didn't need a bigger dose of humility.

39:24 I didn't need any more ego stripping from me.

39:27 But I um for one reason or another that that decided to happen.

39:31 You've got another line that I disagree with and I wanted to talk about it.

39:36 Great.

39:36 Words can only hurt you to the degree that you believe they are true.

39:40 Yeah.

39:40 Why do you disagree?

39:43 Did you believe that the words of the people who tried to cancel you?

39:48 Soft cancellation.

39:50 Baby cancellation.

39:51 Diet cancel.

39:53 Correct.

39:53 Um did you believe that they were true?

39:56 No.

39:57 Did you fear that other people might think that they were true?

40:01 No.

40:01 You didn't fear that other people might think that they were true.

40:03 Someone had never heard of you before.

40:04 Why would I fear if if it's out of completely out of my control?

40:07 There's nothing to fear.

40:09 That's where this this lesson of surrender that I learned a long

40:12 time ago comes back to the pain that I was feeling.

40:16 And this is again counted all joy when you face trials of many kinds.

40:20 Yeah,

40:21 my threshold for stress is a lot higher than a few left-wing angry creators

40:25 making nasty videos about me and people photoshopping the MAGA hat on my head.

40:30 It's pretty funny.

40:30 Someone made a clown photo at one point with me holding a MAGA sign.

40:33 AI is getting good.

40:36 Cute.

40:38 I wish I wish I had a better answer than no.

40:40 It didn't bother me.

40:41 But a lot of the pain earlier we talked about Arthur

40:47 Brooks talking about I think it's the Buddhism formula for suffering.

40:52 Pain times resistance.

40:53 [gasps] The pain that I felt when my dad was

40:57 sick was largely rooted in my desire to change the outcome.

41:00 It was arguing with doctors.

41:02 It was trying to get him to force take 20 pills a day.

41:05 As a 70-year-old man, he was pretty set in his ways.

41:08 And I was so agonizingly in pain because it was like I

41:14 was it's like I was holding this hot pan and I'm going,

41:18 "Ow, this is burning me."

41:20 And God's like, "All you got to do is put the pan down." Well, do you?

41:23 Because there's still going to be a lot of upset.

41:25 I'm aware the difference between pain and suffering, right?

41:28 But there are things that you can do.

41:30 and learning to blend a desire to take control

41:35 of the situation and make an impact on it, agency,

41:40 sovereignty, something that I know that you care about

41:41 a lot and everybody else does as well with surrender.

41:45 Surrender can quite easily turn into passivity if you're not careful.

41:49 If you don't know how to wield it,

41:51 it can become nihilism, laxidasicalness, things that you don't want.

41:59 Does that make sense?

42:00 You can see how surrender could become uh passiveness.

42:04 Yeah, I think if you lack the discernment to know where the line is,

42:06 that that's certainly true.

42:07 So for me, putting the pan down in the analogy of of losing so much of the pain,

42:12 surrendering the pain to Christ in my scenario,

42:14 saying like I don't whatever happens to my dad is God's will for my life.

42:17 I did get supernatural peace from that.

42:19 It doesn't mean I didn't care for him, show up for him, show up for myself.

42:22 Doesn't mean I didn't do things.

42:24 See, that's passivity.

42:25 It would be the absence of doing anything.

42:26 doesn't mean I still didn't help him and me and my mom and my siblings.

42:30 So, when we talk about the internet example, do

42:34 you want to explain what happened?

42:35 What your soft cancellation was?

42:36 Sure.

42:37 Yeah, I'd love to.

42:38 Uh, it's not, you know, only a few people will hear this, so

42:40 it's not like this could kick the fire back.

42:42 [laughter] So, [gasps] I was getting a lot

42:47 of heat to speak on what happened in Minneapolis.

42:50 And I I'll be honest with you,

42:52 I don't watch the news because I think it's a cancer and a cortisol dump.

42:55 And that's not what my algorithm is.

42:56 I don't have the news on the TV.

42:59 I mainly just watch YouTube.

43:01 And I kept getting hammered with these comments.

43:03 Speak about ICE.

43:04 Speak about Minneapolis.

43:05 Speak about what happened to Alex Petty.

43:07 God rest his soul.

43:08 And I didn't know what any of that meant.

43:10 I truly didn't.

43:11 This was days after it happened.

43:13 And so I even reached out to friends that were creators and said,

43:16 "Are you guys getting hammered with these comments?" And all of them said no.

43:21 So I said, "Well, what did I do to to curate an audience

43:24 that would do this?" And I started doing research and I went,

43:28 "Wow, that's terrible.

43:29 Someone was killed in Minneapolis by ICE agents.

43:32 That's awful.

43:33 Murder under no circumstances is justified." And I kept gettingounded.

43:39 And I saw other creators just letting their audience sort of puppeteer them

43:44 into saying something or saying what they thought their audience wanted to hear.

43:47 And then I thought and thought and thought and I prayed on it deeply.

43:53 Should I make this video?

43:54 And this is where faith becomes an easy barometer for decision-m.

43:58 So you ask you ask me if these words hurt me.

44:04 I made a video and the barometer for choice of to post

44:07 or not was do I feel that what I'm about to say honors God?

44:11 It's very simple question.

44:13 Yes or no?

44:14 Am I attacking people?

44:16 or am I choosing to love on people?

44:17 Am I adding flames to the fire of hatred and division?

44:21 Or am I just stating my opinion?

44:22 So, in the video, I said something to the effect of a lot of you

44:26 were asking me to give my stance

44:28 on what happened in Minneapolis with the ICE agents.

44:30 And my opinion is that you don't want my opinion.

44:33 You want to watch the first 5 to 8 seconds

44:35 of my video and decide if I'm your enemy or not.

44:37 [sighs and gasps] And in that video, I say my opinion is very simple.

44:42 Murder and killing others is a tragedy and it's not what God calls us to do.

44:48 It's directly against what God calls us to do.

44:50 Luke chapter 6 tells us to love those who hate us.

44:52 That when someone slaps you, you offer them the other cheek.

44:55 When someone takes your shirt, don't hesitate them.

44:57 Don't hesitate then to give them your robe.

44:59 Because the only thing that blocks out hate is love.

45:02 The only thing that changes a hateful heart is a loving one.

45:05 That's what I said.

45:06 And I said, "You don't follow me because I'm

45:09 a political commentator and you pressuring all of these big

45:12 creators who got here through fitness or mindset

45:15 to now become political mouthpieces for your opinions isn't fair.

45:19 I'm not politically aligned with any party.

45:21 I think there's fools on both sides cuz that's how the world works.

45:24 I think there's smart people on both sides." But I said, "I'm not your puppet.

45:29 I'm not going to do what you demand

45:30 of me because you think it's what I should do.

45:32 You want to hear my opinion come out of your mouth.

45:34 I'm going to continue to create content that was

45:37 the reason that allowed you to follow me.

45:38 I'm going to help you in areas that that I'm competent in.

45:41 And the geopolitical climate of the world isn't one of them.

45:44 I love you.

45:44 Thank you.

45:46 Holy[ __] Did that what I thought was a fairly

45:50 fairly logical and general opinion start an absolute[ __] storm.

45:53 I think that video across platforms has 15,000 comments.

45:57 It's pretty split on positive negative.

45:59 So that's what happened.

46:01 That's the scenario.

46:02 And that kicked up hundreds of creators stitching my video,

46:05 putting my face on their back screen and attacking me.

46:09 And somehow that that evolved to not I I can't

46:13 believe I'm talking about this on the show with you.

46:15 It's so funny.

46:16 Nazi, racist, MAGA, none of which were said in the video, by the way.

46:20 So, it was amazing to watch the conclusions

46:21 that people drew about my character from that video.

46:23 M

46:24 that's the scenario which brings us to today which is you asking basically what

46:29 you're asking me is did the things that people said about me hurt my feelings.

46:33 Uh no not quite not far from but your point is words

46:36 can only hurt you to the degree that you believe they are true.

46:41 Yes I understand what you mean and it's the only

46:43 insults that hurt are the ones that we agree with.

46:47 But I think the insults that hurt most are the ones that we don't believe,

46:54 but we fear other people may believe because that allows a sense of injustice.

47:01 And it doesn't really matter how you feel about it if other people believe it.

47:08 That that is fake news.

47:10 That's having your status bismerched.

47:12 That's having your good name tarnished.

47:14 And I think that that drives people absolutely insane.

47:18 Now, this is the false accusation pandemic.

47:22 And if somebody goes through that, they they pay all of the costs

47:30 of being somebody who did the thing without having done the thing.

47:36 And if you believe that other people might believe it or if it seems to you

47:40 like other people are believing it and you

47:42 didn't do it and you don't believe it yourself,

47:45 that to me feels like a special circle of hell to descend into.

47:49 And that's why optics management and looking

47:53 after the way that your brand is interpreted

47:57 online is really important because let's say

48:00 that that happened once and then it happened again.

48:02 People got a vendetta.

48:04 They decided that they were going to pick apart and selectively edit

48:06 because all of the edits that were done of you got rid

48:08 of the bit where you said any death is a tragedy

48:10 and just kept the bit where I said I'm not your puppet and

48:13 made me look incredibly condescending and arrogant.

48:15 Yes, exactly.

48:16 Um, imagine if five of those had happened in a row because they'd

48:21 gone back and they'd been able to edit your videos in that manner.

48:23 Well, now there's a narrative that Michael guy,

48:26 he's he seems like he's behaving in a there's a consistent pattern of behavior.

48:30 Now, not only can you go back and say, "Well, no, look,

48:33 look, that's not what I said." I mean, even think about it.

48:36 Your indignation at the fact that that's not what I said,

48:40 you're pleading to people to say, "What they say I am is not who I am,

48:46 and I have evidence." Right?

48:47 But imagine you didn't have the evidence.

48:49 A false accusation of some kind.

48:50 I heard Michael say this thing at some live event.

48:53 I didn't record it, but I can promise you that it's true.

48:56 I didn't, but you don't have the recording either,

48:58 and there's no proof around that, right?

49:00 And then that narrative starts to take hold and before you know it.

49:03 I just I agree that words hurt you to the degree that you believe they are true.

49:10 But I also believe that words hurt you to the degree

49:13 that you believe others will believe that they are true.

49:16 And that is where your good name to what extent you've

49:19 got it left gets uh sideswiped and you didn't deserve it.

49:24 Good enough to get here.

49:26 Ah [laughter] you're among friends.

49:27 Well, let's let's ping pong this back and forth

49:29 a little bit because yeah, that can be true.

49:32 If if I were to have built an internet platform

49:34 to the size that it is on a false identity, then I'd be really[ __] nervous.

49:39 But anyone, you know, someone said to me that that video you made is authentic.

49:45 It feels like you.

49:46 And that's the type of video that anyone who truly watches your stuff,

49:49 knows you in real life,

49:51 they're going to they're going to rock with you even harder because of that.

49:54 And the people who were never really watching or just

49:55 casual or just sort of get their news from TikTok,

49:58 they're going to unfollow you.

49:59 They're going to say nasty things about you.

50:01 But those aren't the people I want at in my audience anyway.

50:04 Those aren't and I'm not here to appease people

50:06 or make as many fans as I possibly can.

50:08 I'm just here to make an impact on the people who are prepared to listen.

50:12 So yeah, that's true.

50:14 There's a bunch of people out there who probably think

50:16 a thing about me based on the 8-second doctor edited video.

50:20 Sure.

50:21 But frankly, those aren't the people that I'm those aren't

50:24 the people that are prepared to listen to my videos anyway.

50:26 They could have been.

50:27 Could have been.

50:28 They could have been.

50:29 I I understand your point.

50:31 I do think that as you're trying to grow a platform,

50:35 uh your audience and the total available audience is always

50:40 going to be massively different unless you miss a beast.

50:42 And that means that if you are cailed,

50:46 neuted from being able to access more of these people because some

50:50 back how many people got turned off of Rogan because of what happened?

50:54 I mean, he managed to flip reverse it with an uno reverse card during COVID,

50:58 but how many people could have if

51:01 he hadn't managed to ride the waves appropriately?

51:07 How many of them would have never watched him?

51:10 How many of them would have been turned off from tuning into his content?

51:15 Or the same thing for who else has been through a cancellation recently?

51:20 That could be could be Chris Pratt as a good example.

51:23 Like

51:23 what did he do?

51:24 Uh was Christian.

51:25 People didn't like the fact that he's Christian.

51:27 And um uh they don't go watch his movie because they think that he believes

51:32 a thing which I don't think he believes

51:36 any of the things that they're accusing him of.

51:38 Well, I I understand that those people sort of they don't deserve it.

51:45 She doesn't deserve you anyway.

51:46 Uh but the people make snap judgments.

51:52 They make quick assessments about what someone's character is.

51:58 And I think that we we want to play sport on as smooth of a pitch as possible.

52:05 And if that's been muddied and sullied ahead of us,

52:08 we want to be like, "Fuck, like my this has made my life harder.

52:12 I'm now having to climb up hill and a hill that I didn't make.

52:15 You made it.

52:16 I didn't do anything wrong." And I think there's indignation there.

52:19 So that's my that's my additional perspective.

52:22 No, I hear and I appreciate that perspective.

52:24 I think that the closing remark for me that I what

52:27 I truly believe again I know I know as a believer,

52:30 as a Christian myself, my identity is in Christ and my belief in God.

52:34 And if what I feel, what I said honors him in everything I do,

52:36 not just that video, it's an easy barometer for decision-m for for me.

52:41 And I'm able to stand on that because I built a relationship with God.

52:44 And I got nods that felt like fruits, byproducts as a result of that video.

52:50 You know, I got a nod from some of the top people in the industry saying like,

52:53 "That was a very reasonable video." And some

52:54 people who I really respect and admire intellectually.

52:57 I said, "Well, if people who I really

52:58 respect and admire saying it's reasonable and correct,

53:00 then I probably have reason to believe it's correct." You know,

53:02 Oliver Ebertton said, "If you're not pissing anybody off,

53:05 you're probably not doing anything very important."

53:07 And if being at the top means winning everybody over in a version

53:13 of myself that has to constantly try to control the narrative,

53:16 then I don't I don't want that.

53:18 I would rather have radical authenticity and authentic expression

53:22 in a way that is intact with my character,

53:24 ethics, and morals and impact as many people as I can that way.

53:28 so I don't risk building a mountain of success

53:31 on a false identity that I could worry the mask

53:33 slips and it all comes crumbling down because none

53:35 of those people ever really knew me in the first place.

53:38 So that's how I view that video and by every

53:40 by every metric in real life things improved.

53:44 Um the business did well, the page did well and I got a lot of love

53:49 in exchange for all those hate comments and crazy things people said.

53:52 I had a ton of people come to my defense and love.

53:55 The advantage that you had was I think we can probably name it smokes razor.

54:00 Uh which everything needs a name.

54:02 I got my own term.

54:03 Yeah.

54:04 Uh I think you can call it smokes razor which

54:06 is when anybody asks you to speak on a topic,

54:09 they're not asking you to speak on a topic.

54:10 They're asking you to agree with their position.

54:13 Speak on Iran.

54:15 You don't want me to talk on Iran.

54:16 You want me to say what you think about Iran.

54:19 Because if I speak on Iran,

54:21 but I say the opposite thing to what you believe, you'll be unhappy.

54:25 So say what you mean to say.

54:28 Say what I want you to say about Iran.

54:31 That's more accurate.

54:32 Now you're not part of Simone Razor.

54:34 But I dude, I agree.

54:35 I think it's a a great take and um I can't unsee it now.

54:40 Whenever anybody says,

54:41 "When are you going to comment on when are you going to comment

54:43 on this thing?" It's like you don't want me to comment on this thing.

54:47 You want me to say what you think about this thing.

54:48 You want me to echo your opinion?

54:50 And I'm sure you get that just a few times a day.

54:52 I got in a lot of trouble this year for doing that, not for not doing that.

54:56 I did it too much.

54:57 Uh, which is interesting because the world has

54:58 two things that that are true at once.

55:01 You're not Iranian and you're also not from Minneapolis,

55:04 but you were supposed to comment on it.

55:06 But there's also worlds where people are told like,

55:09 "What are men doing talking about women's bodies?" I mean,

55:15 if the men were in support of uh access to contraception,

55:21 that's speaking about women's bodies.

55:23 I'm sure that that would be fine.

55:26 Like, you shouldn't be talking about this group because you're not a part of it.

55:30 Well, gay rights are[ __] because I'm not gay.

55:33 And uh PETA is[ __] as well cuz I'm not a chicken or a cow.

55:37 Uh the Ukraine war, I'm afraid I'm from neither of those locations,

55:40 so I can't comment on that.

55:41 Uh I'm not a whale.

55:43 So the save the oceans project that's out the window.

55:46 Uh it's if we are only allowed to talk on topics

55:50 that we are a member of that restricts a lot of things.

55:54 And at the same time people will also say you have a platform.

55:58 It's your duty to use it.

56:00 The world is filled with people commenting

56:02 on things that they know nothing about.

56:04 I don't intend on trying to add to that.

56:06 I already do.

56:06 I encroach on that territory enough already.

56:10 But I think the world would be better if people said, "I don't know.

56:14 I don't know much about that." So, I'm not going to say anything about it.

56:18 Like, we don't need more psychology

56:20 professors turning into global terrorism experts.

56:26 No, there are people who have specialtities in these worlds.

56:29 And if you can bro science your way through things,

56:31 you can talk about whatever you would like.

56:33 Don't posit yourself as some sort of[ __] authority.

56:36 And certainly don't hamstring somebody into saying something.

56:39 Yeah.

56:39 Yeah, simply because you have an agenda.

56:41 We're doing the world a favor by depriving Shutting the[ __] up.

56:44 By doing by depriving them of two mid20s,

56:46 early 30s white dudes who think they have an opinion.

56:50 Correct.

56:50 Correct.

56:51 Okay.

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57:59 That's l i v e m o m e n o s.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom.

58:06 But check out the number one fear that holds people back from having

58:10 everything they've ever wanted in life is the fear of being perceived.

58:14 Most of us are operating from a place of deep fear and scarcity.

58:18 Where we need to be operating from is a place of deep trust and abundance.

58:23 Your slogan for the earth should be simple.

58:25 What you fear is your slogan for the year should be simple.

58:30 Where your fear is, there your task is.

58:32 Lean directly into the things that make you most afraid if

58:36 you want to build the life you've always wanted for yourself.

58:39 That's the thing that holds people back.

58:41 It's not the fear of failure.

58:43 It's not even the fear of success.

58:44 Cuz sometimes there's that that comes into the equation

58:46 of who will I have to become if this all works?

58:48 What will have to shift within me?

58:50 at every level we hit.

58:51 We all have different thresholds for this is the fear of being perceived.

58:56 It's that little middle schooler inside of us that says,

58:58 "What will they think of me?

58:59 Will I be cast out of the of the cool kid crew?

59:02 Will I be cast out of the tribe?

59:03 What will the internet think?" Like I said, every person has a level for this.

59:08 For some people, for most people that I get questions around,

59:10 it's posting for the first time online.

59:13 What if I look cringe?

59:14 What if I look corny?

59:15 For many people, it's the fear of public speaking.

59:17 You know, that's the number one fear

59:19 ahead of death in many psychological surveys, which I find fascinating.

59:23 Do you think that's true?

59:23 I've read that, too.

59:24 Do you think that's true?

59:25 I mean, it's it's it's in the data.

59:27 I'm I'm going to shoot you.

59:28 I'm going to put you on stage.

59:31 Yeah.

59:31 You're going to go on stage,

59:32 but your body's probably going to have a This is also not fair.

59:34 You do it for a living.

59:35 So, like, you're a bit you're a bit of a biased resource on the answer.

59:38 Some people might literally rather be killed.

59:40 I don't know.

59:41 I did have a friend once say to me,

59:43 and I quote, though, we couldn't experiment on him.

59:45 said, "No, I'd literally rather die than get on a stage

59:47 in front of 2,000 people." And he didn't laugh.

59:50 So, I mean, I had to his word was bond at that point.

59:53 But at every level, we hit a wall of perception, a fear of perception.

59:58 You know, at first it was for me posting online and then I did

1:00:01 it and it started to work and then I overcame that, if you will.

1:00:05 And then it was the audience got bigger and now

1:00:07 it was and then I got cancelled for the first time.

1:00:09 This happened last year too.

1:00:10 it was about a different thing and then the fear

1:00:12 of perception kind of crept in there and then maybe it

1:00:14 was my first public speaking event in front of a couple

1:00:17 of hundred people and the fear of perception came back in.

1:00:19 Everybody is afraid of what they will be thought

1:00:21 of and if the narrative that the people project

1:00:23 onto them is aligned with what they believe about

1:00:26 themselves to be true and really their deepest darkest fear.

1:00:29 What if they confirm that I am not enough?

1:00:31 What if they confirm that I am incompetent?

1:00:34 All the things that we deal with because someone said those things to us.

1:00:36 You're inadequate.

1:00:37 You're not enough.

1:00:38 You can't sit with us.

1:00:39 You're not good enough.

1:00:39 whatever when we were a kid and we chose to believe that thing.

1:00:42 The fear of perception gets to everybody,

1:00:45 but there's a level to it for everyone.

1:00:47 Your fear of perception is much higher than the person at home listening

1:00:50 to this or sitting in their car in their drive to work right now.

1:00:53 But at some point, you hit a level where you go,

1:00:55 "What will they think of me if I do

1:00:57 this?" There's something in the in within you that could hit.

1:01:00 Maybe maybe it's a new style of content.

1:01:02 Maybe it's throwing out that certain joke that you

1:01:05 really know is pushing it in the new talk.

1:01:07 Maybe it's being vulnerable to a degree that you've never been

1:01:10 online before because that's not what the other guys are doing.

1:01:13 So, what will those guys think of me?

1:01:14 Cuz you're batting in a league that's pretty high.

1:01:17 What will those guys think of me if

1:01:18 I say something totally different in my videos?

1:01:21 It's there somewhere.

1:01:23 [gasps] But I think too many people view it as a fight.

1:01:26 If I can overcome the fear of perception

1:01:29 or if I can conquer the fear of perception.

1:01:31 The goal is not to overcome the fear of perception.

1:01:33 is to stay tapped in with inspiration

1:01:35 cuz you're inspired until you hit the wall.

1:01:37 You know, the content was flowing for me and I was super

1:01:39 inspired in creating a bunch and then the first wall was boom,

1:01:42 cancelled cuz I said something polarizing.

1:01:44 This was, like I said, a year plus ago.

1:01:46 I made a fat joke that was pretty off the it was off color but it was funny.

1:01:50 And that was where it first crept in.

1:01:52 People, big creators started saying crazy stuff about me that wasn't true.

1:01:56 And then I and then I got blocked from inspiration.

1:01:58 I didn't know what to create because I was worried what they will think of me

1:02:01 with what came next.

1:02:03 And so if the goal is not to overcome the fear of perception,

1:02:06 but to stay tapped into inspiration,

1:02:08 then that shifts it from a fight to more of a dance.

1:02:11 And so everybody wants to maximize their potential.

1:02:13 But I don't think that's the game.

1:02:14 I think you don't want to maximize your potential.

1:02:16 You want to know deeply the parts of you that don't want you to do that.

1:02:20 Because when I decided to do seminars last year,

1:02:24 there was a part of me that went, "What if nobody shows up?" Maybe a fear

1:02:27 you had selling tickets across the world.

1:02:29 Maybe not.

1:02:31 [gasps and sighs] But that fear crept in.

1:02:33 And so then the job is not, oh, let me just bury that.

1:02:37 The job is then let me go explore that part of me that thinks nobody

1:02:40 will show up so I can get to, as I said earlier, is this true.

1:02:44 Why is that that kid in me so afraid that nobody will come to my birthday party?

1:02:49 Right?

1:02:49 That's the that's the adult equivalent of the the speaking tour I did last year.

1:02:54 And so through deeply understanding and knowing the parts

1:02:56 of us that don't want us to maximize our potential,

1:02:58 it is only in doing that that the fear of perception falls away.

1:03:02 But there's nowhere to get.

1:03:03 That's the game, dude.

1:03:05 Like that's the game.

1:03:06 There's nowhere to get.

1:03:08 It's an exponential curve.

1:03:09 It never touches zero.

1:03:10 There's for every new level, there's a new devil.

1:03:12 I love that quote.

1:03:14 And when you went from your first episode on your couch

1:03:16 in the UK to top 50 to top 25 to now eight,

1:03:20 there's a fear that creeps in at every point.

1:03:22 something that you have to work through.

1:03:25 But I think the secret is knowing deeply

1:03:28 the part of you that says you don't deserve that.

1:03:30 You can't have that.

1:03:30 And instead of saying that's wrong, familiarize yourself with it.

1:03:35 And then you can process it.

1:03:37 And that's the difference between unprocessing

1:03:38 your emotion and being run by your emotion.

1:03:41 Cuz the two decisions you make if you listen to the narrative,

1:03:44 I'm not enough versus observe it and understand

1:03:46 it and move through it are wildly different decisions.

1:03:49 So that's what the fear of perception is to me.

1:03:52 It's it's the goal to stay tapped into the inspiration,

1:03:54 what I believe the messages that God is placing on my heart are.

1:03:57 And that's why my content is so diverse.

1:03:59 One day I'll make a a video about grief

1:04:01 and what I learned from the death of my father.

1:04:04 And the next day it's the[ __] review

1:04:05 of the Coke flavored Oreo or the Oreo flavored Coke Zero,

1:04:09 my most viral video ever, classically, which is hilarious.

1:04:12 There's no, it was just inspiration.

1:04:14 It was following the inspiration.

1:04:16 And in doing that, I've built a business out of it.

1:04:19 But conventional rules would tell me, well,

1:04:20 you're not sticking to the framework and the structures and the virality.

1:04:23 It's all[ __] So, the goal is to stay st stay

1:04:26 tapped in to inspiration by dancing with that fear of perception.

1:04:31 There's an interesting line between scarcity and abundance.

1:04:33 So, George Mack is just the most abundance mindset person that I've ever met.

1:04:38 It really is.

1:04:39 Uh he has this is my one of my[ __] favorite George stories.

1:04:44 I think he must be on his 30th pair of AirPods now.

1:04:49 And he's kept them all in his Bluetooth.

1:04:51 I hope he has Apple history.

1:04:53 And I probably and um you can see George's AirPods 1 2 3 4 all the way up to 30.

1:05:00 But because they're all linked to his Find My There's one

1:05:04 pair that's in the United Nations building in downtown New York City.

1:05:08 There's one left AirPod I think that's in Kandahar or something.

1:05:13 So he's lost them around the world or some of them have been in the ocean.

1:05:18 Others of them have been picked up by people where he's left them.

1:05:21 And uh he left them in Deans the other night.

1:05:23 Oh my god.

1:05:24 When we were at dinner.

1:05:25 Yes.

1:05:25 Oh my god.

1:05:25 Left them at Deans.

1:05:26 Uh and he can see he tracks them and every so often because he

1:05:31 can do the find my he just plays a sound out of the AirPods.

1:05:34 So the[ __] UN building it'll beep and it's

1:05:41 just him[ __] with the the dude in Kandahar.

1:05:43 or he's like[ __] with him because he knows that he's getting [laughter] glass.

1:05:47 It's so good.

1:05:49 But he's just got this abundance mindset, man.

1:05:51 And I don't think anyone's done a full

1:05:54 treatment on the difference between scarcity and abundance mindset.

1:05:57 Not enough.

1:05:58 It's a really obvious meme, I guess,

1:06:00 if you've been in the personal development world for a while.

1:06:03 I haven't seen it fully sort of break through.

1:06:05 And the idea that a glass half full versus half empty

1:06:09 is a pretty sort of cliche way to think about it.

1:06:13 just assuming that it's okay.

1:06:16 Things will get better.

1:06:18 I can take the risk.

1:06:20 I can spend the money.

1:06:21 I can treat myself.

1:06:22 I can give myself time off.

1:06:24 I can permit myself to attempt this thing that I

1:06:27 don't know whether or not it's going to go well.

1:06:29 Just assume that things are going to go well.

1:06:31 And it's a particular type of advice

1:06:33 for a particular type of person that maybe many,

1:06:38 perhaps even most people actually need the opposite advice.

1:06:41 They need to be told to pump the brakes on their risk tolerance.

1:06:44 There is a big subset of people I'm going to guess at the very

1:06:48 least like me perhaps like you who need the opposite piece of advice.

1:06:52 I needed to read Die with Zero by Bill Perkins

1:06:55 because otherwise I would have just been scrimping and saving.

1:06:59 There's a difference between um misers and uh like spenders.

1:07:04 And unfortunately I've fell into the camp of I'd never had money.

1:07:08 So I thought, well, now I've got it.

1:07:10 I I should hold on to it.

1:07:11 What if it goes away?

1:07:13 Well, that means that you never get to arrive at a place where you arrive.

1:07:17 And yeah, abundance mindset is um a wonderful salve to the uncertainty

1:07:23 and the fear that I think a lot of us feel.

1:07:25 Your episode shift, are we allowed to talk

1:07:26 about the new style of content that's coming out?

1:07:28 It'll be before this one.

1:07:29 So, yeah.

1:07:30 Okay.

1:07:30 The the the four-way episode that we had,

1:07:32 we had a lovely four-way the other day.

1:07:33 It was fantastic.

1:07:35 Uh me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

1:07:35 me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

1:07:36 to have an Indian man in there for diabetes.

1:07:38 Of course it was great.

1:07:38 Yes, he taught us a lot about breastfeeding.

1:07:40 It was an interesting conversation.

1:07:41 Go listen to that one.

1:07:43 The but that's a great example, right?

1:07:44 You could have said, "Well, this isn't what my audience expects of me.

1:07:47 This isn't what got me to top eight in the world.

1:07:50 I can't do a four-way podcast of me and my boys bullshitting.

1:07:53 I've been the interview guy.

1:07:54 I've been the solo guy giving advice." But to me,

1:07:57 I've viewed what you did as an act

1:07:59 of authenticity and trusting that diversifying is

1:08:02 actually the exact thing you should do because

1:08:04 you haven't done it up to this point.

1:08:06 And the more frictionless, less buttoned up, you know,

1:08:10 pop a button and let your hair down approach

1:08:11 to this like us just talking and joking and some

1:08:14 of the crazy stuff that happened in that episode

1:08:16 is exactly what people want to see from you because it makes you so relational.

1:08:23 So, I I view creators through this lens as well.

1:08:26 There's this guy who said he uses his content

1:08:28 as a direct exposure therapy to people pleasing.

1:08:31 He posts whatever he wants.

1:08:32 He says I don't I wish I knew his name so I could give him credit.

1:08:35 I post whatever I want.

1:08:36 I'm not really overly mindful of what my audience wants.

1:08:38 And I have a wide variety of topics that I speak on.

1:08:42 He's an authority in some places.

1:08:44 He's very human and goofy in others.

1:08:46 And he talks about his story in other facets of content.

1:08:48 So, there's three pillars I think that exist.

1:08:50 There's informational, aspirational, and relational.

1:08:54 Informational is the authority figure content.

1:08:56 I'm teaching you something.

1:08:58 And then relational is the Open Tabs podcast,

1:09:01 if that's what you decide to call it.

1:09:03 Did you decide on a name?

1:09:05 Uh, we're still working between Rabbit Hole, Open Tabs,

1:09:10 Side Quest, and stuff I love.

1:09:12 I like Open Tabs, dude.

1:09:14 Open Tabs is fun.

1:09:15 Open tabs is good.

1:09:16 So informational is, we'll use my content for example,

1:09:19 when I'm teaching you about creatine

1:09:20 or the form and fashion of public speaking tips,

1:09:22 how to limit your filler words, something I'm competent on.

1:09:25 And then there's relational.

1:09:26 It's just me saying, "This is the Oreo flavored Coke.

1:09:31 Let me review it." And it's just total, it's total brain rot.

1:09:34 It's just funny.

1:09:34 I'm cracking jokes.

1:09:35 And then there's aspirational.

1:09:37 There's look at what I overcame and you can too.

1:09:40 Leo Skppy is a masterclass on this.

1:09:41 I don't know if you know who that is, but he's a huge creator.

1:09:44 He's got 10 million followers on Tik Tok, five on Instagram, and a big podcast.

1:09:49 But he is a therapist in his podcast.

1:09:51 Basically, he does this video.

1:09:53 It's like, "Come get ready with me and let you see my outfit

1:09:55 before I go out in Vegas for the night." And it's like no value.

1:09:58 People are say like, "This feels like a FaceTime from you.

1:10:00 I love you." And then aspirational.

1:10:01 He talks about overcoming an abusive relationship and the hardship

1:10:04 that he dealt with to get to where he is now,

1:10:06 which is wealthy, healthy, and abundant.

1:10:08 And when you combine those three pillars,

1:10:10 you get an audience that is really [snorts] bought into you.

1:10:13 Because not only can you teach them something,

1:10:15 but they can relate to you and and they

1:10:17 can also feel that they can overcome hardship, too.

1:10:20 You're not just this person,

1:10:21 this man or woman in the ivory tower sitting in your beautiful podcast studio.

1:10:25 No, you've been through[ __] because you're human.

1:10:28 And that's what I think is that makes an incredible creator and also

1:10:32 allows us to continuously break through the levels of the fear of perception.

1:10:36 And that's honestly how I view content.

1:10:37 Like my video my videos are me expressing myself

1:10:40 in the purest fashion that I think is almost childlike to me.

1:10:44 Also makes for an interesting person.

1:10:47 Yeah.

1:10:46 An interesting life.

1:10:47 We don't want the thing.

1:10:49 We want the feeling that the thing gives us.

1:10:52 Why?

1:10:55 Yeah.

1:10:55 What did we're speedrunning our recellation right

1:10:58 now with all the references we're pulling.

1:10:59 What did Andrew Tate say?

1:11:01 You don't want the Ferrari.

1:11:02 You want everyone to know you have

1:11:03 the Ferrari and that they can't have the Ferrari.

1:11:05 Right.

1:11:06 We don't we don't things isn't fun.

1:11:07 Getting things is fun.

1:11:08 Having things isn't fun.

1:11:09 Getting things is fun.

1:11:10 But we don't want the thing.

1:11:11 We want the feeling that it gives us because

1:11:13 [sighs and gasps] I give you my opinion on this.

1:11:16 This is it's a faith-based one yet again.

1:11:18 We'll come back to this.

1:11:18 My a lot.

1:11:19 My my pastor Philip Mitchell that I

1:11:21 referenced earlier says that everybody has a God-shaped

1:11:23 hole in their heart and they try to fill it with the things of the world.

1:11:27 And and this is why biblically idolatry is a sin.

1:11:30 Sin is actually just God's way of protecting

1:11:32 us from hurting ourselves cuz we're stupid.

1:11:34 We're people.

1:11:35 We're dumb and we make mistakes.

1:11:37 To idolize something is to put it on a pedestal.

1:11:40 And to put it on a pedestal implies that it can never let you down.

1:11:43 But things of the world are imperfect.

1:11:44 They'll always let us down.

1:11:46 And so we don't want the thing.

1:11:48 We want the feeling the thing gives us because the nice watch,

1:11:51 the nice car, the status, the success, the money,

1:11:54 whatever, any form of material success, will it make us feel significant,

1:11:59 seen, heard, understood, important in our place in the world?

1:12:03 And it never does.

1:12:04 It's like you said, it's the hydonic treadmill.

1:12:06 You step into the thing, it's really cool.

1:12:07 You get the dopamine hit and then the Ferrari just becomes we'll take my car.

1:12:12 Well, don't forget there's a much more squirrely,

1:12:13 penicious version of this, which is developing yourself with your traits

1:12:20 and your skills and maybe your knowledge as well.

1:12:23 Naval has this cool idea where he talks

1:12:25 about how he wasn't that concerned about being smart,

1:12:29 but he really wanted to appear smart.

1:12:31 So what he did is he just wrote, memorized tons of stuff and that gave him

1:12:37 the illusion of being smart to other people,

1:12:40 but it didn't mean he actually understood what he was doing.

1:12:43 And that difference of when I'm able to impress people around a dinner table,

1:12:48 when everybody else shuts up and they think

1:12:50 I'm the most interesting person in the room,

1:12:52 then or a black belt in some martial art, when I get there then.

1:12:58 And the difference is there's a obvious cultural meme around how cringey it

1:13:03 is to assume that a Ferrari is going to fix your self-worth problem,

1:13:06 but there's far less about well, you know,

1:13:08 once I've done a thousand hours of meditation,

1:13:12 once I've got my black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu,

1:13:15 once I've finally read all of the classics

1:13:17 and can quote them verbatim around the dinner table,

1:13:20 once I've done even more pericious than this, go deeper,

1:13:23 once I've done every level of the Hoffman

1:13:25 process or internal family systems or I you know,

1:13:28 every Joe Hudson art of accomplishment podcast

1:13:30 off by heart and I've done the work

1:13:31 and I've I've transcended and included my willbearian

1:13:34 ego and everything is now become a perfect manifestation.

1:13:37 I've alchemized myself.

1:13:39 That is just a slightly clever twist on the same arrival fallacy, right?

1:13:46 I will be when I will be something when I something else.

1:13:52 It's the same dynamic.

1:13:53 It's just done in a slightly less shallow obviously that big way.

1:14:01 Yeah, that's that's it, man.

1:14:03 That's that's what I thought.

1:14:04 That's what I was talking about earlier.

1:14:05 There's nowhere to get.

1:14:07 There's nowhere to get.

1:14:08 It doesn't mean you don't go there.

1:14:09 Doesn't mean you don't achieve the thing and and build the accolades.

1:14:12 That doesn't mean it's not fun and it doesn't feel good,

1:14:14 but there's nowhere to get.

1:14:15 There are just levels to climb through.

1:14:17 And zero is death.

1:14:18 Zero is when your life is over.

1:14:21 And that's that in my opinion takes all the weight off of it.

1:14:24 It makes it more fun, easier to obtain.

1:14:26 And that when I get to the end of my life, I will have hopefully, God willing,

1:14:30 done a lot of cool[ __] But the ultimate mission for me is I hope,

1:14:43 you know, my dad said this to me like four weeks before he died.

1:14:47 I thought it was very interesting that a guy who

1:14:50 was living what I thought was the fullest life ever.

1:14:53 The stories he told me, the things he got to do,

1:14:56 the things him and his friends did the last four to six weeks he was

1:15:01 alive when he was just stuck on the couch and we would just sit and talk.

1:15:04 And one thing I'm really thankful for that I did that I hope anyone listening

1:15:07 to this with parents who are still here do

1:15:09 is I recorded a series of podcasts with my dad

1:15:12 when he got sick and I asked him all

1:15:14 the hard questions and it was[ __] brutal, man.

1:15:18 Like had to turn the camera off, had to walk away.

1:15:20 It was it's a unique pain to look at my dad and say,

1:15:25 "What do you want to say to me on my wedding day?" Can you say it right there?

1:15:29 That's hard.

1:15:30 But I'm grateful that I did it because now I have it.

1:15:34 And it goes back to I don't really think a lot of what

1:15:37 the people on the internet think about me because I had to do that.

1:15:40 My threshold for pain is so much higher, for stress is so much higher.

1:15:43 I don't want to control the narrative.

1:15:45 I tried that and it created so much more pain within me.

1:15:49 But back to the original point, it was interesting to hear a man who I

1:15:54 thought was 10t tall and bulletproof and had done everything

1:15:56 in the world and had shown up for me

1:15:57 every time I needed it and was a great husband,

1:15:59 a great dad, the best I'd ever seen.

1:16:04 When he got to the end of his life,

1:16:05 all he could tell me about was the things he wishes he did more of.

1:16:08 And it wasn't anything complex.

1:16:11 It wasn't that he wish he sold more

1:16:14 tracks because he was a running track salesman.

1:16:16 It wasn't that he wishes he did more skydive jumps

1:16:18 or that he spent more time on the golf course.

1:16:20 He said two things.

1:16:21 He said, well, he said three things.

1:16:24 He said, number one, I should have spent more time at home with your mom

1:16:27 and less time on the golf course with my buddies.

1:16:30 And number two, I should have been here

1:16:31 for you guys more when you were growing up.

1:16:34 I didn't perceive it that way.

1:16:35 To me, my dad was always there when I needed him.

1:16:38 Like, I was lucky to have a dad who really loved

1:16:39 me and showed up for me and and my brother and sister.

1:16:43 And the last thing he said was,

1:16:45 "All I hope to hear when I get wherever I'm going is," well done,

1:16:51 my good and faithful servant.

1:16:52 You fought the good fight.

1:16:54 You've run your race.

1:16:55 Here's your crown.

1:16:56 It's time to rest.

1:16:57 That's scriptural.

1:17:00 And to me, these achievements are fun.

1:17:03 They're so fun.

1:17:05 I'm I'm Words cannot put be put into the feeling I have

1:17:09 of gratitude to be sitting across the table from you right now, man.

1:17:11 Like, it's so cool.

1:17:12 I told my boy today, he called me.

1:17:13 He was like, "How you feeling?" I was like,

1:17:15 "Dude, we do downloads on Modern Wisdom.

1:17:17 We were getting our walks together in college.

1:17:19 Like, this is so cool.

1:17:21 It's incredible." But where I stand with my belief is

1:17:26 not is that God's not going to say, "Well done,

1:17:28 my good and faithful podcast host, my good and faithful content creator,

1:17:32 business owner." He's not going to say husband or father or brother.

1:17:36 He's going to say servant.

1:17:38 And if what I do glorifies God and if I feel

1:17:41 that way and I receive confirmation or what I think is confirmation,

1:17:46 that's what I think I'm here to do.

1:17:47 And that's what I think we're all here to do.

1:17:49 And I think if more people open

1:17:50 their heart to the possibility of that being true,

1:17:53 they would still have fun pursuing the thing

1:17:54 and getting the thing and having the thing,

1:17:57 but they'd understand that that's really all we're here for.

1:18:00 And that the only zero, the only arrival is the end of it.

1:18:03 And that it's all just fun.

1:18:05 It's fun and service.

1:18:06 That's it.

1:18:07 Before we continue, as you're probably aware, I'm not a massive drinker.

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1:19:13 The path to being the best version of yourself should be lonely.

1:19:16 And the loneliness you feel is nothing to be sad about.

1:19:19 It is a benchmark and an indicator that you're probably on the right path.

1:19:25 Everything in life has a true opportunity cost to it.

1:19:29 Cutting people off, cutting things off, cutting habits off is uncomfortable,

1:19:33 but every time I've done it, something incredible has filled that gap.

1:19:38 [snorts] This is total inception listening to you tell me

1:19:42 what I said because I learned that from you,

1:19:44 which [laughter] is kind of hilarious.

1:19:46 Correct.

1:19:46 It's the human centipede,

1:19:47 but we've both got our ass and mouth attached to each other.

1:19:50 We're earling each other or whatever the[ __] it's called.

1:19:52 That's correct.

1:19:53 Yeah.

1:19:54 My mouth to Chris's ass.

1:19:55 Clip that.

1:19:55 Very good.

1:19:59 Yeah.

1:19:59 I mean, you and you and and Hormosi talked about the lonely chapter,

1:20:03 and I remember going through that being 22 years old and wondering.

1:20:08 I really had one friend, my best friend,

1:20:10 still the guy I just told you I was on the phone with earlier,

1:20:12 uh Will, I love you if you're listening to this.

1:20:16 It was just he and I.

1:20:17 I I would have these these feelings of why

1:20:19 do I care this much about resistance training, progressive overload?

1:20:24 Why do I want to learn about hormesis and heat exposure and listen to Dr.

1:20:27 Ronda Patrick talk for three hours about those things with Joe Rogan?

1:20:31 Why do I care what Chris Williamson and Andrew

1:20:33 Hubin are going to talk about for two hours

1:20:35 and when I go talk to it about my talk

1:20:36 about it to my friends, they go sick, dude.

1:20:39 It's like you can't expect everyone to have the interest same interest as you.

1:20:42 I get that.

1:20:42 Want to slide me one of those?

1:20:43 Yeah.

1:20:43 Get in there.

1:20:44 Appreciate it.

1:20:44 A little nicotine bump.

1:20:45 Go on.

1:20:46 What is this?

1:20:46 Is this the mint one?

1:20:47 This is the watermelon peppermint.

1:20:49 I think

1:20:50 watermelon peppermint.

1:20:51 Yeah.

1:20:51 We're just finding different ways to stimulate ourselves.

1:20:53 Yeah,

1:20:53 I have an oral I have an oral fixation,

1:20:55 which is great to say after we just talked about aftermath.

1:20:58 Yeah, Chris loves finding ways to get orally stimulated for sure.

1:21:02 That's correct.

1:21:05 Um the I remember the uh this to nicotine toothpicks about to go

1:21:08 straight to my frontal lobe and allow

1:21:09 me to cohesively pull this thought together.

1:21:11 But I remember being very confused about why nobody gave

1:21:15 a[ __] about the things I gave a[ __] about.

1:21:18 And I just had this one friend.

1:21:19 It was me and Will.

1:21:20 And we he was up in New York at college and I was down in Georgia.

1:21:23 And so we'd do these things we called neat

1:21:25 chats where we'd go out and go for a walk.

1:21:27 Non-ex exercise activity thermogenesis walking neat chats.

1:21:30 He just text me like neat and we go

1:21:32 and we do downloads on the podcast we were listening to.

1:21:34 But we were each other's only outlet and that can feel lonely.

1:21:38 And I remember girl I was dating at the time saying I I

1:21:42 talked to her about the first time I heard about the anterior midsulate cortex.

1:21:46 And I went this is groundbreaking[ __] information.

1:21:49 And I've got to tell the world like the British are coming,

1:21:51 the British are coming, the AMCC is growing, the AMCC is growing.

1:21:54 Boring.

1:21:55 [laughter] Exactly.

1:21:57 And it was a very loving.

1:21:58 You should like make content or something.

1:22:02 You should talk about this.

1:22:03 Yeah.

1:22:03 But not to me.

1:22:04 But not to me.

1:22:05 That's exactly right.

1:22:05 It

1:22:06 be really great if you didn't talk to me about it.

1:22:09 That's exactly right.

1:22:09 And at the time it felt like rejection.

1:22:11 But in hindsight, I'm like, "Yeah,

1:22:13 I can't expect you to care about the things I care about." So for me,

1:22:17 this period of losing weight when I was ob I was overweight.

1:22:20 I lost 60 lbs when I was 21 and kept the weight

1:22:23 off became passionate about understanding that it's actually not that hard.

1:22:27 My life got better when I did that.

1:22:28 People treated me better.

1:22:29 My energy was better.

1:22:30 My clothes fit.

1:22:31 I felt better about myself.

1:22:33 Look good, feel good, play good.

1:22:34 Why does everybody think this is so hard?

1:22:36 And then it got deeper.

1:22:37 My grandma died of Alzheimer's.

1:22:38 So I became interested in cognitive decline

1:22:40 as it pertains to exercise and lifestyle.

1:22:42 And this passion just kept growing within me where all I was

1:22:45 consuming was podcasts and information on this at any chance I could.

1:22:49 But I wasn't really doing anything with it other than my own benefit.

1:22:54 And I realized now so clearly looking back

1:22:56 that I that that was God preparing me for this.

1:22:59 I use everything I learned over that seven-year period in my job every day.

1:23:04 And people ask me, "How do you know all this?

1:23:07 I just spend six years alone walking by yourself

1:23:09 listening to podcasts for a thousand hours?" M that's what it takes.

1:23:13 And that was my lonely chapter.

1:23:15 And it felt like it was for nothing.

1:23:16 And looking back, I laugh at the idea of that because

1:23:19 it's part of why I'm in this room with you

1:23:22 was my obsession with those things with no seeming

1:23:25 or or visible horizon of payoff in the future.

1:23:28 You know what what does Hormosi say?

1:23:29 Being able to do the work without the promise

1:23:31 or expectation of it paying off at any given point.

1:23:34 I did that and eventually it paid off.

1:23:38 But that's where my love came from.

1:23:40 And that's where the understanding I would tell people

1:23:42 if if you feel like you've outgrown in your words,

1:23:45 you've outgrown your old group and you haven't found your new one yet.

1:23:47 That is a barometer that you're actually

1:23:49 on exactly the path that you're supposed to be.

1:23:52 Mhm.

1:23:52 At least that's my take and it's it's what I've

1:23:54 seen in people who other consider themselves high performers as well.

1:23:57 And I think you feel similarly given that clip that of course.

1:24:01 Yeah.

1:24:01 I mean it's

1:24:02 it was the central thrust of the last live show that I did.

1:24:07 It was the thing that people spoke about the most.

1:24:09 It's kind of taken on a life of its own, which is really cool.

1:24:12 And I think what's coolest about it is that it puts a name to something

1:24:14 that a lot of people feel and that nobody

1:24:16 had actually come up with a term for previously.

1:24:21 And yeah, it's a it's not romantic.

1:24:26 There's no point in that process

1:24:28 that makes you feel like there's glory happening.

1:24:32 Your entire journey of personal development is

1:24:35 just steeped in uncertainty and and self-doubt.

1:24:40 It's not cool.

1:24:41 It's not sexy.

1:24:42 You think the Rocky cut scene was three and a half minutes in the movies.

1:24:46 It's been 4 years for me.

1:24:47 What the[ __] is going on?

1:24:48 That's it.

1:24:49 There's no promise of any success on the other side of it.

1:24:52 I'm permanently questioning if you're making any progress.

1:24:54 Am I doing this right?

1:24:55 And it it isn't like every mont every training montage

1:25:00 that you've seen where the hero goes from realizing he

1:25:05 needs to change to the change with ups and downs

1:25:09 in the journey and the progress but no loss of conviction.

1:25:14 I lost conviction all the[ __] time like am I what should I be doing?

1:25:17 Should I be maybe I need to do more yoga?

1:25:19 I actually crossfit.

1:25:20 I should be doing crossfit and if I did more

1:25:22 cross ah no[ __] cuz I I need to meditate more.

1:25:24 If I meditate more, I should learn.

1:25:26 What should I learn?

1:25:27 Should I learn the classic?

1:25:28 Maybe I should read philosophy.

1:25:28 No, I should do evolutionary.

1:25:30 Just constantly trying to work out what I'm selfgenerating and self-educating.

1:25:37 And yeah, when I look back, I've got this couch in Newcastle, the old studio,

1:25:44 the one that I had to paint the ceiling of cuz it

1:25:46 had candle s cuz I had a candle obsession for a while.

1:25:49 And everybody said that it was mold.

1:25:50 It wasn't mold.

1:25:52 Wasn't my mom's basement.

1:25:53 It was my bedroom in my house that I bought and I loved,

1:25:58 but it didn't look that great.

1:25:59 So, I did have to get it painted.

1:26:00 The internet bullied me into getting painters around.

1:26:02 Two gay painters.

1:26:03 It was brilliant.

1:26:03 And uh they came around and did this thing.

1:26:05 And then uh Doug, it was a Douglas Murray

1:26:08 episode actually that put the final like cuz he said,

1:26:11 "What's that on the ceiling?" And I was like, "Right, okay.

1:26:13 I'm[ __] [laughter] doing it." Um right next to that set, right?

1:26:19 remembering this is the first studio I've ever owned that wasn't in my house.

1:26:22 The last decade, every single house that I've

1:26:25 stayed in, every Airbnb I've stayed in, every

1:26:26 hotel I've stayed in for more than 3 weeks has had some form of studio in it.

1:26:30 And this is the first one that isn't in my abode.

1:26:34 Right next to that studio setup, which had my bed in the background,

1:26:39 and then there would be a bear on the bed,

1:26:42 uh, was a couch, this leather couch that came with the house,

1:26:45 and I kind of liked it.

1:26:46 It was comfy.

1:26:47 And I spent hundreds, probably over a,000 hours.

1:26:51 In fact, it must be over 1,000 hours, just sat on one half of this couch.

1:26:55 And I had this little wooden table next to me.

1:26:58 And I'd have a little coaster like like

1:27:01 this, a little coaster with my salt and lemon and water,

1:27:04 like just table salt cuz it was before element and was available in the UK.

1:27:08 Maybe I didn't even know it existed.

1:27:09 Maybe it didn't even exist.

1:27:11 and I'd have my Kindle and I'd have this little

1:27:14 blanket and I'd put this blanket over my knees and I'd

1:27:17 have a cushion and I'd put my Kindle on the cushion

1:27:20 and I'd sit down and I'd try and read.

1:27:22 I remember when I first started trying to read after

1:27:24 a decade of being a club promoter and that's just I think

1:27:29 I sent and received the last time I checked my stats

1:27:31 I sent and received 8 million messages on WhatsApp with thumbs.

1:27:37 I'm just used to bings and bongs and notifications

1:27:39 and colors and I sit down and it's

1:27:41 just this black and white screen with words on it and my body used to move.

1:27:46 My body used to sort of twitch a little bit like

1:27:49 it was trying to search for extra dopamine inside.

1:27:51 I literally think it was trying it was learning what lower stimulus felt

1:27:55 like and I then I'd maybe try and meditate or I'd do whatever.

1:28:01 That whole process now in retrospect is just

1:28:06 one of the coolest periods of my life.

1:28:07 And it was me in this e ex garage extension

1:28:13 of a house in bum[ __] village near Newcastle upon time

1:28:18 around the corner from a primary school and I just spent

1:28:23 thousands of hours sat there just doing[ __] experimenting with myself,

1:28:27 I guess, and learning about me.

1:28:29 Experimenting with yourself, you say?

1:28:30 I was Yeah.

1:28:31 Yeah.

1:28:31 Yeah.

1:28:31 Mostly trying to fit my own mouth around

1:28:34 my own ass so that I don't need you anymore.

1:28:35 I just want to feed my own ideas back into myself.

1:28:39 That's an echo.

1:28:40 True orus.

1:28:41 Yeah.

1:28:41 Yeah.

1:28:41 Yeah.

1:28:42 Um and that's[ __] awesome.

1:28:45 And lots of people, even the most powerful and successful ones,

1:28:48 Homozi talks about sleeping on the gym floor.

1:28:50 There's cars driving over the top of the gym where he slept

1:28:57 and he would hear the kids that were his age partying above him.

1:28:59 and he was still downstairs and I would hear families coming and going

1:29:04 from the school and I'd still be sat there and I'd have heard them drop

1:29:07 the kids off on the morning and I'd still be there and they'd have left

1:29:10 later that day and then maybe I'd be working on my laptop doing whatever now.

1:29:14 It's cool and I think that yeah, the path to being the best version of yourself

1:29:19 should be lonely or at the very least being

1:29:23 lonely is not an indication that you are not

1:29:26 on the path to becoming the best version of yourself.

1:29:29 that people sort of rage against the the fact that there

1:29:33 is lots of self-doubt and there isn't that much glory and it

1:29:36 does seem like it's tarnishing the experience and I don't know if

1:29:38 it's going to work and I'm racked with this lack of belief.

1:29:42 Yeah, that that is part of the course because if you're going

1:29:46 to try and break out of the mold of wherever you are,

1:29:49 you need to do something that's unbelievably weird and different and strange.

1:29:53 And that means that there's going to be very few people by design like you.

1:29:57 very few people are going to be self- selecting to go and do this thing,

1:29:59 which means that you have to go off on your own.

1:30:02 And maybe you're super fortunate and you've got a brother

1:30:05 or a friend or whatever that is on the journey with you.

1:30:08 But for the most part,

1:30:09 people are born in towns if you're into this sort of stuff.

1:30:14 You're the one person within a 5year age bracket where you

1:30:20 live that you know that's into this and there's no one else.

1:30:23 So yeah, it's an indication that you're on the right path.

1:30:25 I think you're correct.

1:30:27 Did you think Did you think this would all

1:30:29 happen when you started on that couch in Newcastle?

1:30:33 [laughter] No.

1:30:35 No.

1:30:35 I mean, look, I grand planned sort of big impressive

1:30:42 goals for life is never something I've been particularly good at.

1:30:45 Uh really, but this wasn't a plan, right?

1:30:49 This was emergent.

1:30:50 This was me failing forward, falling forward.

1:30:54 Someone once described adulthood as like being pushed down a set of stairs

1:30:57 at age 18 and trying to catch your feet until you die.

1:31:01 And it does feel a little bit like that.

1:31:02 I'm like performing adulthood, performing competence or whatever it is.

1:31:06 Um, but no, it absolutely wasn't the plan.

1:31:08 I I didn't have any I didn't have any plan at all,

1:31:12 but I really enjoyed the process of following my passions,

1:31:18 which I'd suppressed for a long time.

1:31:20 So I did uh two degrees at university.

1:31:22 I did a bachelor's in business management and then a masters

1:31:24 in international marketing and I did a year in industry.

1:31:26 So I was at university for 5 years left at 23.

1:31:30 And uh I remember when I completed my master's dissertation, I finished it.

1:31:35 I started and finished it in 36 hours.

1:31:37 This had I'd been given the entire summer to write

1:31:39 it and technically the entire year to write it.

1:31:42 And I've started and finished it in 36 hours.

1:31:44 And I did it on a case of Red Bull and three bags of very,

1:31:48 very questionable cocaine from my local dealer.

1:31:51 [laughter] And I was so wired and just screwy by the end of it.

1:31:56 My housemate had had a party downstairs and I kept

1:31:58 going downstairs to do a line to then come back upstairs.

1:32:01 I was like watching the party slowly

1:32:03 degenerate as I was finishing my dissitation.

1:32:06 I was completely sober.

1:32:07 I mean, apart from the cocaine.

1:32:09 Cocaine.

1:32:09 Completely sober is a crazy thing to say when you were railing.

1:32:12 Completely cocaine.

1:32:12 Yeah.

1:32:13 But like not, you know, it's it's I'm coke over.

1:32:15 Um [laughter] sure.

1:32:17 Um and I I didn't trust myself to hand my dissertation in.

1:32:21 I didn't trust myself to drive it in.

1:32:23 So I walked it into town.

1:32:25 I walked to town from my house because I

1:32:27 wouldn't drive obviously because I was completely I was like,

1:32:30 you did just dedicate a year of your life and kind

1:32:32 of the crowning achievement of your academic career to this thing.

1:32:36 So you were prepared to roll the dice with this.

1:32:38 and it came back and I got uh one of the highest

1:32:41 marks of like my entire uh module was was was around that dissertation.

1:32:46 So cocaine's a hell of a drug.

1:32:47 My point being when I decided like I'm going

1:32:54 to try and do something that's just for me.

1:32:57 I look back on my degrees and realized

1:32:59 I should have done philosophy or psychology.

1:33:01 I wasn't fired up about business.

1:33:02 I didn't want to do business,

1:33:04 but I couldn't work out what job a philosopher would get.

1:33:10 I didn't know I didn't know what job a psychologist would get.

1:33:14 Psychology was interesting to me.

1:33:15 So, I suppressed what I was interested in and did it

1:33:18 in service of a thing that I thought would be functional.

1:33:20 And then, you know, 15 years later, I can't remember anything that I learned.

1:33:25 So, it was completely pointless.

1:33:26 Uh, and I got the opportunity to run

1:33:28 it back and basically create my own university course.

1:33:31 And the one thing that I knew that I did want, like the one goal that I did have

1:33:35 was to be respected by people that I respected.

1:33:38 I really wanted to be seen as a peer by people who I admired.

1:33:41 And I I think that's one of the coolest things to have someone who go,

1:33:45 "Dude, I really[ __] love your work.

1:33:48 I I really like this way that you approach

1:33:50 the world." And for them to say, "Oh, yeah.

1:33:54 I I I like this about you,

1:33:55 too." That is a fuel, I think, that will drive people.

1:33:59 It's not as transactional as just status growth.

1:34:03 It's wow, this person is discerning and they're good

1:34:05 at what they do and they like what I do, too.

1:34:08 Amazing.

1:34:09 What a great stamp commenation that I've received.

1:34:15 And that was something that I really wanted.

1:34:17 And yeah, I had my[ __] Mount Rushmore of guests and that was

1:34:22 largely around Mount Rushmore of people that I wanted to respect what I did.

1:34:27 And uh that was what drove me for for a good while.

1:34:30 But so do you feel like you've done that now?

1:34:32 Still need to get Rogan on.

1:34:33 He's[ __] skddish and he keeps on going elk hunting so he's busy.

1:34:36 But uh yeah, I think so.

1:34:38 I think I think all of the people that I started off wanting

1:34:42 to turn from a idol into a rival and a peer I managed to do.

1:34:48 And um that was awesome.

1:34:50 And now it's a case of okay,

1:34:52 what does it look like to start to forge something new, right?

1:34:55 You know what's next?

1:34:57 I don't know more of this.

1:34:59 I'm just enjoying[ __] having fun on the show,

1:35:01 speaking to people like you and seeing what a new generation

1:35:05 of creators that I can collaborate with is like guys like you,

1:35:10 Joe Folly, Alex Okconor, Dillanos Sullivan, Chris Griffin, Elliot Buick.

1:35:15 You know, there's a lot of young talent, younger talent that's, you know,

1:35:19 an entire generation in internet speak,

1:35:21 but realistically only between 10 and 15 years in real life.

1:35:24 And uh that's cool.

1:35:25 I think that's really fun.

1:35:26 Okay.

1:35:27 Well, what who what other angles have we got that we can play around with here?

1:35:31 Who else is coming up?

1:35:32 And um then you get to be a platform for other people,

1:35:36 which is s cuz for almost all of your career

1:35:38 in something like this, you're basically riding off the coattails

1:35:41 of people who are more successful than you and like

1:35:45 suckling at the teeth of someone who's already suckling today.

1:35:49 Uh accumulated a lot of lot of that on his mind.

1:35:52 I don't What can I say?

1:35:54 Um, and then eventually you get to the stage

1:35:59 where you can pay it forward and you go, "Wow, I really[ __] like this person.

1:36:02 I'm going to give him a crack." Angelo Summers,[ __] unreal.

1:36:07 One of the best video essaists.

1:36:09 So good and criminally undersubscribed.

1:36:12 I just loved his essays.

1:36:13 I'm like, I want to talk to him.

1:36:14 Come to Austin.

1:36:15 I want to talk to you.

1:36:16 It's sick.

1:36:16 And I'm not quite yet a kingmaker, but you know, it's it's good.

1:36:21 We're getting there.

1:36:22 And that's really really fun.

1:36:23 is that, you know, I was going to ask you a question.

1:36:26 I feel like you kind of answered it.

1:36:30 What would you do for free right now?

1:36:32 What would make you really happy?

1:36:33 Is it to have that next generation around and on?

1:36:37 And I would sit down and have these conversations for free.

1:36:40 I I I did this before anybody listened.

1:36:42 I did this long before anybody listened.

1:36:44 It took I think two years to hit 10K subs.

1:36:48 So that's 150 episodes.

1:36:51 [snorts] And then it took 3 years to hit 100K.

1:36:57 So we're now at 300 episodes.

1:37:01 And then when I moved to America,

1:37:03 we were at 250K subs and that was 450 episodes.

1:37:09 We've only done a thousand.

1:37:11 Nearly 50% of the show was done before I moved to America and under 250k subs.

1:37:19 And then I came out here and all

1:37:21 of this stuff happened and it was really amazing.

1:37:23 But I'd already done it when nobody was watching for a long time.

1:37:27 We were stuck at I think it was like 7K for nearly a year and I didn't care.

1:37:32 I just loved what I was doing and it's still the same.

1:37:35 And so I I there's nothing else that I want to do at 5:20 p.m.

1:37:40 Central time than be here and chat to you.

1:37:42 There's nothing else that I want to do.

1:37:44 I am enjoying the stage stuff.

1:37:45 That's fun.

1:37:46 Going and doing the live stuff's cool, but there's nothing else.

1:37:49 All right, I've got another one.

1:37:49 I want to I want to harass you about this one.

1:37:52 If you want exceptional things,

1:37:54 you have to be willing to work toward them for exceptional periods of time.

1:37:57 I'm willing to bet 90% of people who didn't get

1:38:00 where they wanted did so simply because they stopped too early.

1:38:05 [snorts] [sighs and gasps] I'm going to do the thing, the apherism thing.

1:38:10 Do it.

1:38:11 90% of success can be boiled down to doing the obvious thing

1:38:13 for an extraordinary period of time without

1:38:16 convincing yourself you're smarter than you are.

1:38:17 is the end of that quote from from Mr.

1:38:19 Hormosi himself.

1:38:20 [sighs] What was the obvious thing with growing the podcast?

1:38:25 What are the obvious things that you did that got it to where it is today?

1:38:29 Not stopping.

1:38:31 That's it.

1:38:32 With social media growth that people ask me all the time,

1:38:34 what's the number one thing you'd recommend?

1:38:36 Post every day for 6 months.

1:38:39 90 plus I would guarantee you 90 plus%

1:38:41 of people wash out after 90 days of posting.

1:38:45 And so extraordinary success comes from just doing the boring stuff.

1:38:48 But you can't package that.

1:38:50 You can't make an incredible viral clip out of it or a multi-million

1:38:54 dollar business if you just tell people if you want to get jacked,

1:38:56 you should probably just not stop working out

1:38:57 and not stop eating well and not stop walking.

1:39:00 And if you want to have a successful podcast,

1:39:02 you should probably just not stop uploading

1:39:04 an episode a week or two episodes a week.

1:39:06 It's the same with social media.

1:39:07 I haven't missed an upload in two and a half years on social media.

1:39:12 So yeah, the byproduct is the growth,

1:39:13 but it's the obvious thing and it's the thing.

1:39:15 It's not easy to do because things get in the way.

1:39:18 You have all these ideas or creative blocks or reasons you can't post.

1:39:22 But it's simple to understand is if you want to be where you want to be,

1:39:27 you have to do the boring[ __] for a long time.

1:39:29 And that's what I've noticed from everybody at the top.

1:39:31 There was never this game-changing revolutionary formula for how they got there.

1:39:36 They just kept[ __] showing up.

1:39:38 And if they had 10% to give that day,

1:39:39 if I had 10% to give that day and I gave it, I gave 100%.

1:39:43 Because I truly understand that that is so much better than nothing.

1:39:48 And I do think so many people on social media stop right before they pop.

1:39:52 So many people in the gym stop right before they hit

1:39:55 that flow state with their workouts that gets them in the best

1:39:57 shape of their life or they find that way of eating

1:39:59 that feels comfortable and they that they can sustain forever.

1:40:03 Most people stop right before they strike gold.

1:40:05 And I know if I just keep showing up, even if it all falls away,

1:40:10 like you just said, I'd still do this for free.

1:40:14 If all the sponsors and the platform got stripped,

1:40:18 you'd still come into this room and record, which means you'd climb again.

1:40:23 But not many people have the testicular fortitude to be able to do that.

1:40:28 I think also one of the things is people mistake doing something they

1:40:33 feel they should be doing instead of doing something that they're obsessed with.

1:40:37 So I've got the the difference between discipline, motivation, and obsession.

1:40:40 So discipline is I will make myself do the thing.

1:40:44 Motivation is I want to do the thing and obsession is I can't not do the thing.

1:40:49 Sort of climbed inside of you and it's staring out through your eyes.

1:40:52 And what we look at with a lot of people now, it appears like discipline,

1:40:57 but what it is is just the remnant of what was previously an obsession.

1:41:02 Going to the gym for me was something that I did because I was obsessed with it.

1:41:05 I wouldn't go on nights out at university because I wanted to stay

1:41:07 in and read bodybuilding.com forums to see if this blueberry extract would get

1:41:11 me more jacked or whatever the[ __] And now my training pattern is

1:41:17 just like the hard rock that's cooled after that lava erupted for a while.

1:41:24 And it looks like discipline from the outside,

1:41:25 but it's actually just the remnant of this thing

1:41:27 that kind of wore me for a while.

1:41:30 And uh I don't know whether you have heard me talk about this before,

1:41:33 but 90% of podcasts don't make it past episode 3.

1:41:37 And of the 10% that do, 90% of them don't make it past episode 20.

1:41:43 So, by making 21 podcasts,

1:41:45 you were in the top percentile of all podcasters ever.

1:41:47 Let's go.

1:41:49 We did it.

1:41:50 And it just sort of goes to show how rare consistency is.

1:41:55 And um yeah, if you want I want

1:41:56 to be in the top percentile of all podcasters ever.

1:41:58 Okay, just do 21.

1:42:00 Like they can be[ __] Do 21 and you have already won.

1:42:03 And yeah, consistency is not sexy and it doesn't really fit

1:42:12 very well on an Instagram reel because it's not a quick fix.

1:42:16 So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't

1:42:19 surprise me that people don't want to do it.

1:42:21 I think another element a lot of people didn't get

1:42:24 to where they are because of a lack of support.

1:42:28 So I think the lonely chapter thing I I'm was for a very

1:42:33 long time and still maybe deep down are uh uncertain uncertain.

1:42:37 Am I doing this right?

1:42:38 Is it okay for me to want to do this thing?

1:42:40 And I basically have a lifestylewide praise kink and if you just say to me

1:42:45 the thing that encourage me that is a really good fuel source for me.

1:42:50 But that means that in the UK somewhere which is quite

1:42:53 disparaging of anybody that wants to do anything different the opposite.

1:42:56 And I know that this the lonely chapter thing particularly resonated

1:42:59 with people in the UK because it's one big[ __] off lonely chapter.

1:43:03 And that's also one of the reasons I think that we've

1:43:05 got such millionaire exit like the whatever it's called brain drain.

1:43:09 This millionaire flight that's happening from the UK because if you're

1:43:12 the sort of person that wants to make a lot of yourself,

1:43:14 it's not a wonderful culture to be in.

1:43:16 And I really would love to change that.

1:43:18 The the praise kink is a super funny way to put that.

1:43:21 Lifestylewide praise kink.

1:43:22 Good boy, Chris.

1:43:23 Good boy.

1:43:24 Don't you do it.

1:43:24 Not you.

1:43:25 [laughter] I don't need it from you.

1:43:26 Um, but I love what you just said there.

1:43:28 The 21 episodes about putting you in the top 1%.

1:43:32 They are probably going to be[ __] That's the other thing.

1:43:34 Mine will is Mr.

1:43:36 B says, "Create a 100 videos and understand they're all going to suck

1:43:38 and then maybe you can start to get kind of good at it."

1:43:40 That's the best creator on the planet by every observable metric.

1:43:44 I look back at my old content.

1:43:46 It's horrific.

1:43:46 It's I cringe.

1:43:47 It's awful.

1:43:48 But it has to be shitty before it can get good.

1:43:51 You're you're episode one through five are probably

1:43:53 nowhere near I listened to episode one actually.

1:43:55 What do you think?

1:43:56 I mean, compared to this, you suck.

1:43:58 [laughter] Listenable.

1:44:01 Yeah.

1:44:01 But comparatively shitty.

1:44:03 Yeah.

1:44:03 And it's the same thing with my pod and my first videos.

1:44:05 It's it's suspending the ego long enough for the skill sets to catch up.

1:44:09 Yeah.

1:44:09 That's lovely.

1:44:10 That's what it really is.

1:44:11 Yeah.

1:44:11 Yeah.

1:44:12 Yeah.

1:44:12 Yeah.

1:44:12 Yeah.

1:44:13 Yeah.

1:44:13 And because your inspirations are not the people

1:44:17 that are only one step ahead of you.

1:44:18 They're the people that are 15 steps ahead of you or 100 steps ahead of you.

1:44:22 So you compare that to where you are.

1:44:24 But nobody does that.

1:44:25 Nobody starts playing football on a weekend and says,

1:44:28 "Well, Cristiano Ronaldo does so much better than me.

1:44:30 It's[ __] pointless me even trying." You go, "Well,

1:44:32 I suppose so." But if there was ever a Well,

1:44:36 I I I was talking to Louis Thuru this morning

1:44:38 and he said about the two jobs that British young boys want.

1:44:45 Number one is still I actually think this is a good sign.

1:44:47 Number one is still to be a Premier League footballer.

1:44:50 I think that's a good sign.

1:44:51 But number two is be a YouTuber.

1:44:53 And uh there's this weird world where what people need,

1:44:58 what young boys need is more resilience if they're going to do that.

1:45:03 And it seems like more patience as well.

1:45:07 Uh it's particularly unpatient culture for people

1:45:11 who want to be YouTubers an awful lot.

1:45:14 Yeah, I love that that that phrase.

1:45:16 Why do why do grown men love pro aletes so much?

1:45:20 Cuz it's a kid that never give up on their dreams and they want to be like that.

1:45:24 And so it's cool to hear that there are kids that are still wanting that.

1:45:27 And I think that that childlike wonder gets taken

1:45:29 from us at some point along the way in many people.

1:45:32 And I still see that in what you do.

1:45:34 The open tabs episodes, the way you[ __] around talking about how

1:45:37 you were railing lines of coke like this.

1:45:39 It's a playful not that kids should do Coke.

1:45:41 Not what I'm saying.

1:45:42 No, it's a great neutropic though.

1:45:43 It's a it's laser focused.

1:45:46 But it's it's at some point we something happens

1:45:49 to us and we just forget to play and have fun.

1:45:52 And that's why content is is so easy for me to create.

1:45:56 It's I Proverbs 13:12 says, "Hope deferred makes the heart sick,

1:45:59 but a dream fulfilled is a tree of life or a longing fulfilled is

1:46:02 a tree of life." And I view the tree of life in that quote as inspiration.

1:46:06 And the hope deferred was me not creating the content.

1:46:09 And when people ask me what my strategy is for videos,

1:46:11 I don't have one because I treat it like a kid in a sandbox building castles.

1:46:15 It's it just it's all content.

1:46:17 It's all ideas.

1:46:17 And when I suspend the disbelief that it has to be anything,

1:46:20 the inspiration just continues to flow.

1:46:22 And that's I encourage all the adults out

1:46:26 there to unpucker their asses and have fun.

1:46:28 Find a way to have fun.

1:46:29 Like you and I in the park the other day throwing

1:46:31 the[ __] test unwinding our[ __] rotator cuffs for 15 minutes.

1:46:36 I was not I was I was Did Oh yeah, I forgot it cracked.

1:46:39 Oh yeah.

1:46:40 Let's see if we can get this on the microphone.

1:46:42 Oh, it's popping inside my shoulder.

1:46:44 I uh I went like this on the pod

1:46:46 the other day and it just the whole studio heard

1:46:49 but we were it was so funny the way like the the 12-year-old

1:46:52 inside of all of us or inside of you and I

1:46:54 on that walk as I bent down for the ball we both went

1:46:56 yep and then it just no words directly into a game of catch.

1:47:00 Yeah.

1:47:00 Clarity and conviction is perceived by those who

1:47:02 hear it as confidence and competence.

1:47:05 [snorts] One of the most important things someone ever said to me,

1:47:07 it was a mentor of mine.

1:47:08 Clarity and conviction is perceived by those who

1:47:11 hear it as competence and confidence.

1:47:13 I think communication is the number one skill you can develop in this life.

1:47:18 You've built a career off of it.

1:47:20 And you're only as good as your ability to tell a story

1:47:22 or tell your story or tell other people's stories on their behalf.

1:47:26 But everybody seems to think or so many people think

1:47:28 I am just this way with my my speaking my words.

1:47:31 It's it's viewed as this static thing.

1:47:33 But it's a muscle that you can train.

1:47:35 So when you speak clearly, when you enunciate properly and with conviction

1:47:39 that when you sit across the table from me,

1:47:41 whether you agree with me or not, you can tell that I believe what I'm saying,

1:47:45 you're perceived by the people around you as competent,

1:47:47 intelligent, and confident.

1:47:49 And people follow competent, confident people.

1:47:52 I mean, look at look at politicians.

1:47:54 They might not always be telling the truth,

1:47:56 but they sure do speak with clarity and conviction.

1:47:58 Someone like Barack Obama is touted as one

1:48:01 of the best speakers in the entire presidential candidacy.

1:48:04 in the history of the presidency.

1:48:06 And people loved him cuz he spoke clearly and with conviction.

1:48:09 And then people perceived him as competent

1:48:11 and confident enough to elect him twice.

1:48:14 So the Bible says life and death is in the tongue.

1:48:16 What you say is incredibly powerful both about yourself

1:48:21 and the message that you're able to portray about whatever it is.

1:48:25 So I encourage people to develop those skill

1:48:29 sets and understand it's just a muscle.

1:48:31 Communication skills are just a muscle.

1:48:33 It's like the first time you went to the gym

1:48:35 and your hands were soft and now you look at my palms

1:48:37 and I've got these calluses as as you do from all

1:48:41 the times I've picked up the dumbbell or the barbell.

1:48:43 But the first time I did it, it hurt.

1:48:45 And then over time, the hands got harder and more durable.

1:48:48 Communication and public speaking are the same way.

1:48:51 And that's how this crazy challenge has this public speaking challenge

1:48:56 that I've somehow become tied to has just grown on the internet.

1:49:00 I think there's something like 60 or 70,000 people doing it.

1:49:04 Did I tell you about this?

1:49:06 Maybe not.

1:49:08 If if you search on Instagram, I know it's on more on TikTok.

1:49:10 If you search on Instagram #hireupwwellness challenge, it says 28,000 posts.

1:49:17 A year ago, I made a video,

1:49:19 maybe more than this, maybe two years ago, I made a Yeah, two years ago,

1:49:22 I made a video and I said the number one skill that can change your life is

1:49:25 the ability to communicate efficiently and effectively.

1:49:28 And if you don't think you can do it, I promise you can.

1:49:30 You just need to practice.

1:49:31 So here's what I recommend.

1:49:33 I recommend you pick pick up the phone,

1:49:36 turn the front camera on, hit record, and talk for 60 seconds unbroken.

1:49:40 Whatever comes up, whatever comes out.

1:49:42 No topics, no.

1:49:43 It doesn't have to be about anything.

1:49:44 Anything goes.

1:49:46 Try not to use too many filler words like um you know, don't use those words.

1:49:51 And just speak for 60 seconds with no cuts.

1:49:53 And do it for a minimum of 30 days.

1:49:55 I didn't say tag me and hashtag it this.

1:49:58 I didn't try to start a challenge.

1:49:59 What happened was this kid Brandon,

1:50:04 he took that video and sort of cut it up and he said,

1:50:08 "I'm really terrified to post online and public speaking

1:50:11 scares me and this video convicted me to do it.

1:50:14 So, I'm just going to title this the Higher

1:50:15 Up Wellness public speaking challenge." First video ever.

1:50:19 Mind you, I said post on a burner account.

1:50:21 Nobody will see it.

1:50:23 First video ever.

1:50:24 5 million views overnight.

1:50:26 Gym Shark comments.

1:50:27 I think the Cincinnati Bengals comment like crazy

1:50:30 huge accounts comment on this kid just saying,

1:50:33 "I'm very nervous and I'm going to spend the next 30 days practicing

1:50:36 my public speaking skills." And he went from 0 to 40,000 followers overnight.

1:50:41 And that started just this storm

1:50:43 of people practicing their communication skills.

1:50:46 I'm just I think it's very cool that and I'm honored to even be tied to it.

1:50:49 But this kid and this other creator, Reagan, did this and their videos blew up.

1:50:54 And now I'm watching when I click on the hashtag, I'm watching all these people.

1:50:58 What I like to do is go to their day one video and then go to their day 30.

1:51:02 Some of these people have been doing this for 380 days.

1:51:05 There's a guy who's on day 381.

1:51:07 And the transformation in their ability to show up,

1:51:11 their confidence is unbelievable.

1:51:14 M I mean it's direct evidence of the fruit

1:51:16 of of battling the fear of perception cuz

1:51:18 everybody says I was so scared to post online in case I looked like a cornball.

1:51:22 Some of them have developed social media followings.

1:51:25 One creator Jet Franen went from zero to 500,000 I think across

1:51:29 his platforms and just blew up and does incredible philosophical takes now.

1:51:35 And it's because he he just decided to get

1:51:36 out of his own way and do this silly challenge.

1:51:39 And it's so[ __] cool to watch.

1:51:41 But it's proof that these are skills.

1:51:44 You can build clarity.

1:51:45 You can build conviction.

1:51:46 You can learn how to speak in stream of consciousness.

1:51:49 We're not all just gifted with the ability to do it or not do it.

1:51:53 It's a skill and you have to hone it.

1:51:55 There's definitely an interesting duality to it that clarity and conviction

1:51:59 is certainly perceived as confidence

1:52:01 and competence and and insight and expertise,

1:52:04 but as you said, people who don't have expertise or competence can reverse

1:52:12 engineer their way into seeming like

1:52:14 somebody [laughter] that you should listen to.

1:52:16 It's the criticism of all style and no substance, right?

1:52:20 But I think all substance and no style doesn't tend to get listened to.

1:52:25 James Smith had this[ __] unbelievable line about his first podcast.

1:52:29 He's now on his second one.

1:52:30 He's like a guy with multiple.

1:52:32 I think he might be on his third one now.

1:52:33 Um, did you say multiple wives?

1:52:36 He's like a guy with multiple wives.

1:52:38 It's like serially dating his own podcasts

1:52:40 and renaming them and then[ __] flipping the channel.

1:52:43 I thought you meant literally married.

1:52:44 I was like, damn.

1:52:44 Just put James on blast right now.

1:52:46 No, no, no, not at all.

1:52:47 No, he's[ __] living a dad life in Australia.

1:52:50 Um, and he had this line and he said, "On my podcast, I speak to people who

1:52:57 are far smarter than me but much more boring.

1:53:01 [laughter] It's so true, dude." [gasps] And I just thought, "Ah,

1:53:06 that's so great." Or another way to look

1:53:09 at it is everything worth saying has been said before,

1:53:13 but nobody was listening, so it has to be said again.

1:53:16 uh has to be said with more clarity and conviction.

1:53:23 And I think that's where where James got it really

1:53:30 right was that a lot of people's ideas are[ __] fantastic,

1:53:34 but they just haven't yet quite worked out

1:53:36 how to package them or promote them fully.

1:53:39 And if you can, lots of people feel like

1:53:42 the the things that they have to contribute are really wonderful.

1:53:46 Wouldn't it be great if more people knew about it?

1:53:48 I've got good I've got a good take on on what should happen with the WNBA.

1:53:52 Like I I really think that I can contribute to this.

1:53:54 I think I could improve the WNBA, which I imagine needs improving.

1:53:56 And why is no one listening to me?

1:53:59 I I think that my ideas have got veracity.

1:54:01 I think that there's some truth in them.

1:54:03 I think that they're really really useful.

1:54:05 Oh, no one listens to me because of the style thing.

1:54:08 And it's kind of like being in a band and your band's music is just too cool.

1:54:12 It's just so progressive, man.

1:54:14 Like people just don't get it.

1:54:15 You It's a strange kind of protectionist strategy.

1:54:19 It keeps you at arms distance because the fact that nobody gets it means

1:54:24 that you're safe from ever having to compete

1:54:26 in the landscape of ideas or music, whatever criticism.

1:54:31 Yeah.

1:54:31 With people who have got their foot in the door.

1:54:35 And I think that there's a this is one of the reasons that kind

1:54:37 of the underground hero band is seen as a little bit sexy in that way.

1:54:41 Ah, you wouldn't you you wouldn't get it, man.

1:54:43 Like it's you know it's so sophisticated for for how and you think well what if

1:54:47 you knew how to promote it and what if it was a little bit more attuned

1:54:50 to the market and you still had all

1:54:51 of this amazing technical ability on the[ __] guitar

1:54:54 or whatever it is that you're doing and it

1:54:59 at least adapted itself to the market somewhat.

1:55:01 And also, you need to play the game until

1:55:03 you can start to change the rules of it.

1:55:05 But it's you don't get to change anything sat in the stands.

1:55:10 You have to sort of earn your keep and then okay,

1:55:13 these are the rules of the game and now I can break them.

1:55:15 Breaking the rules of the game before knowing them is just not playing the game.

1:55:19 You just don't understand what you're doing.

1:55:21 Yeah, that's it.

1:55:22 The buyin is to is to play by the rules.

1:55:24 Or the opposite.

1:55:25 I guess the only other option would be sitting on the sideline

1:55:27 and bitching about how the rules of the game are unfair.

1:55:29 Yeah.

1:55:30 And nothing gets done there.

1:55:31 Yeah.

1:55:31 So, you might as well play and then learn them.

1:55:33 Just like you said, if you cannot do something as simple

1:55:36 as return the shopping cart to its designated area,

1:55:39 I'm going to assume you're a degenerate and your life is in shambles.

1:55:43 Shopping cart theory.

1:55:46 Mhm.

1:55:45 The litmus test pursing.

1:55:47 Yes.

1:55:48 Okay.

1:55:48 We've got two new razors out of this podcast.

1:55:50 This has been revolutionary.

1:55:52 [gasps] I really believe that, man.

1:55:55 And every I've that video I posted that just the other day, but it's an old one.

1:56:00 And every time I think it's got the the comment to like to view

1:56:03 ratio is just totally[ __] because it

1:56:05 clearly stirs up negative emotion in people.

1:56:07 And every time somebody comments what a what a silly

1:56:11 thing to care about or this is just stupid.

1:56:13 I would say just say you're a bad person.

1:56:15 You just outed yourself completely.

1:56:16 Just say you don't return the shopping cart.

1:56:18 [gasps] Jokes aside, yeah, it's a bit inflammatory and hyperbolic intentionally.

1:56:22 But there's this great Reddit green text about how the shopping cart theory

1:56:26 is the litmus test for if you're a functioning self-governing member of society.

1:56:30 If you can't even return your shopping cart, what can you do?

1:56:34 What is your home life?

1:56:36 [laughter] What does your home life look like?

1:56:39 What does your health look like?

1:56:40 Everything's probably in shambles.

1:56:42 It's the Jordan Peterson clean your room for the Walmart generation.

1:56:47 Yes, [clears throat] that's it.

1:56:47 For the Walmart.

1:56:48 Yeah, [laughter] that's exactly right.

1:56:50 It is the test of self- agency and self-governing.

1:56:52 It's It's just one of those things like why would you not do it?

1:56:55 Anyone who voluntarily doesn't do it.

1:56:57 I just It's safe to assume you probably

1:56:59 also like hate dogs and treat service workers poorly.

1:57:02 It's just the other character.

1:57:03 The way that you treat waiters and waitresses is a good indication of this.

1:57:08 It's such a good one.

1:57:10 And uh I I I'm just going to say I

1:57:15 think that Americans are the rudest[ __] drivers on the planet.

1:57:18 You guys treat lanes like they're your property.

1:57:22 You ever been to Atlanta?

1:57:24 Only the airport a lot, but only the airport.

1:57:27 Oh, bad.

1:57:28 Oh, you've never seen driving like that before.

1:57:29 But you're right.

1:57:30 You're right.

1:57:31 What is Atlanta driving like?

1:57:33 Like like Atlanta women?

1:57:35 [laughter] You're going to get me in trouble with all my friends back home.

1:57:39 I can't answer that.

1:57:40 I plead the fifth.

1:57:41 My opinion is that you don't want my opinion.

1:57:44 You [laughter] don't want me to hear what I've got to say about Atlanta.

1:57:46 [gasps] Atlanta driving is like eyes peeled,

1:57:50 bring a gun just in case sort of situation.

1:57:52 It's if you're not 15 over,

1:57:55 you're 15 under and everybody's really angry and got somewhere to be.

1:57:59 But it's it's whatever you know to be

1:58:00 true about Americans times three in Atlanta.

1:58:02 Third worst traffic city in the world.

1:58:04 Just for clarity, if you're in the UK and you are in front of the car

1:58:10 that's in the lane that you're moving

1:58:11 into, unless that car is going very quickly, they slow down and let you in.

1:58:16 They flash you in.

1:58:16 If you're in front of the car and you indicate, you get to move across.

1:58:20 You get let in.

1:58:21 And if you don't do that, it is incredibly bad form.

1:58:25 __] unbelievably bad form.

1:58:26 In the US, it almost feels like someone speeds up and slows down

1:58:29 to make it impossible for you to enter the lane even behind them.

1:58:33 Yeah, it is.

1:58:35 It that's been one of the biggest changes of of being here.

1:58:38 And I feel like this is the driving

1:58:41 equivalent of the shopping cart theory that how nice

1:58:44 of a person can you be if you can't let somebody into the lane in front of you.

1:58:49 Not very.

1:58:49 Oh, we're touching We're touching on something close to your heart now,

1:58:51 aren't we, Atlanta driver?

1:58:53 How's that feel?

1:58:54 Yeah, but I I I'm very intentional.

1:58:55 If you were in front of me, I'd let you in.

1:58:57 Unless I was in a hurry, of course, and then it's[ __] you.

1:58:59 But that's cute.

1:59:00 That's really Everybody's just in a hurry, I guess.

1:59:02 Yeah, maybe.

1:59:02 Was that what was the biggest culture shock coming over here

1:59:04 in terms of behaviors of people when you first got here?

1:59:08 Driving is a big one.

1:59:09 Yeah, the driving quality here is horrendous.

1:59:12 And I had to take my test and that explained why.

1:59:15 Stupid Americans.

1:59:16 It's well, not necessarily stupid, just like distractable.

1:59:20 I think caffeinefueled WhatsApp messaging.

1:59:24 __] Dude, we don't use WhatsApp over here.

1:59:25 I messaging, whatever the[ __] You should use I mean,

1:59:29 it would probably be fixed if you're using WhatsApp probably.

1:59:31 Uh, the driving was a huge one.