Drs. Robert Epstein & BF Skinner with Pigeons-Part 1

0:35 People have always tried to explain

0:37 People have always tried to explain

0:37 People have always tried to explain behavior, human and otherwise, but some

0:40 behavior, human and otherwise, but some

0:40 behavior, human and otherwise, but some behaviors are more difficult to explain

0:42 behaviors are more difficult to explain

0:42 behaviors are more difficult to explain than others.

0:43 than others.

0:43 than others. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the

0:45 Pledge allegiance to the flag of the

0:45 Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. We know why

0:48 United States of America. We know why

0:48 United States of America. We know why most school children can cite the Pledge

0:50 most school children can cite the Pledge

0:50 most school children can cite the Pledge of Allegiance. They've been taught to do

0:52 of Allegiance. They've been taught to do

0:52 of Allegiance. They've been taught to do so.

0:53 so.

0:53 so. We call this rote learning.

0:57 We call this rote learning.

0:57 We call this rote learning. With liberty and justice for all.

1:00 With liberty and justice for all.

1:00 With liberty and justice for all. But how do we explain a child's first

1:02 But how do we explain a child's first

1:02 But how do we explain a child's first words?

1:04 words?

1:04 words? Al

1:05 Al

1:05 Al ba.

1:50 Why is it that only humans can

1:52 Why is it that only humans can

1:52 Why is it that only humans can communicate using symbols?

2:11 We know how a child learns to avoid

2:13 We know how a child learns to avoid

2:13 We know how a child learns to avoid being burned with hot food. It usually

2:16 being burned with hot food. It usually

2:16 being burned with hot food. It usually only takes one burn and the child won't

2:18 only takes one burn and the child won't

2:18 only takes one burn and the child won't touch it again. We call this simple

2:20 touch it again. We call this simple

2:20 touch it again. We call this simple conditioning.

2:43 Some behaviors are far more mysterious.

2:45 Some behaviors are far more mysterious.

2:45 Some behaviors are far more mysterious. A 1-year-old child will react to its

2:47 A 1-year-old child will react to its

2:47 A 1-year-old child will react to its mirror image as if it's seeing another

2:49 mirror image as if it's seeing another

2:49 mirror image as if it's seeing another child. But a 2-year-old will react to

2:52 child. But a 2-year-old will react to

2:52 child. But a 2-year-old will react to its image as a reflection of itself.

2:55 its image as a reflection of itself.

2:55 its image as a reflection of itself. How do we explain this phenomenon?

3:47 It's easy to explain why a child will

3:49 It's easy to explain why a child will

3:49 It's easy to explain why a child will reach into a cookie jar. The child has

3:52 reach into a cookie jar. The child has

3:52 reach into a cookie jar. The child has gotten cookies by doing so.

3:55 gotten cookies by doing so.

3:55 gotten cookies by doing so. But what about those exciting instances

3:57 But what about those exciting instances

3:57 But what about those exciting instances that every parent has proudly observed?

3:59 that every parent has proudly observed?

3:59 that every parent has proudly observed? When a child is confronted with a

4:01 When a child is confronted with a

4:01 When a child is confronted with a difficult situation and a creative

4:03 difficult situation and a creative

4:03 difficult situation and a creative problem-solving kind of behavior seems

4:05 problem-solving kind of behavior seems

4:05 problem-solving kind of behavior seems to emerge mysteriously.

5:01 In casual conversation, we often attempt

5:04 In casual conversation, we often attempt

5:04 In casual conversation, we often attempt to explain these interesting behaviors

5:06 to explain these interesting behaviors

5:06 to explain these interesting behaviors by saying the child is intelligent,

5:08 by saying the child is intelligent,

5:09 by saying the child is intelligent, thinks creatively, or uses reason.

5:12 thinks creatively, or uses reason.

5:12 thinks creatively, or uses reason. Psychologists have borrowed many of

5:14 Psychologists have borrowed many of

5:14 Psychologists have borrowed many of these terms from laymen and have added

5:16 these terms from laymen and have added

5:16 these terms from laymen and have added many similar ones of their own, such as

5:18 many similar ones of their own, such as

5:18 many similar ones of their own, such as mental image, self, and ego.

5:22 mental image, self, and ego.

5:23 mental image, self, and ego. Behavioral psychologists argue that such

5:25 Behavioral psychologists argue that such

5:25 Behavioral psychologists argue that such terms don't really explain anything.

5:27 terms don't really explain anything.

5:28 terms don't really explain anything. Many are only inferences from behavior

5:30 Many are only inferences from behavior

5:30 Many are only inferences from behavior and cannot therefore be used to explain

5:32 and cannot therefore be used to explain

5:32 and cannot therefore be used to explain it.

5:33 it.

5:33 it. Behaviorists assert that all our

5:35 Behaviorists assert that all our

5:35 Behaviorists assert that all our behavior, no matter how complex, is the

5:37 behavior, no matter how complex, is the

5:37 behavior, no matter how complex, is the result of our genes and our

5:39 result of our genes and our

5:39 result of our genes and our environmental history.

5:41 environmental history.

5:41 environmental history. Until recently, behaviorists have

5:43 Until recently, behaviorists have

5:43 Until recently, behaviorists have studied only relatively simple behaviors

5:45 studied only relatively simple behaviors

5:45 studied only relatively simple behaviors in the laboratory and have only

5:47 in the laboratory and have only

5:47 in the laboratory and have only speculated about how simple processes

5:49 speculated about how simple processes

5:49 speculated about how simple processes might account for more complex

5:51 might account for more complex

5:51 might account for more complex behaviors.

5:52 behaviors.

5:52 behaviors. But in 1979 at Harvard University,

5:55 But in 1979 at Harvard University,

5:55 But in 1979 at Harvard University, Robert Epstein and B.F. Skinner began a

5:57 Robert Epstein and B.F. Skinner began a

5:57 Robert Epstein and B.F. Skinner began a unique series of experiments which

5:59 unique series of experiments which

5:59 unique series of experiments which brought complex behavior into the

6:01 brought complex behavior into the

6:01 brought complex behavior into the laboratory.

6:02 laboratory.

6:02 laboratory. Prompted by increasing reports from

6:04 Prompted by increasing reports from

6:04 Prompted by increasing reports from primate laboratories in which behavior

6:06 primate laboratories in which behavior

6:06 primate laboratories in which behavior was attributed to mental processes, they

6:09 was attributed to mental processes, they

6:09 was attributed to mental processes, they began confronting head-on some of the

6:11 began confronting head-on some of the

6:11 began confronting head-on some of the thorniest issues in the analysis of

6:13 thorniest issues in the analysis of

6:13 thorniest issues in the analysis of complex behavior.

6:14 complex behavior.

6:14 complex behavior. The one

6:16 The one

6:16 The one very good example was a paper which

6:18 very good example was a paper which

6:19 very good example was a paper which claimed to show that chimpanzees could

6:22 claimed to show that chimpanzees could

6:22 claimed to show that chimpanzees could communicate with each other expressing

6:25 communicate with each other expressing

6:25 communicate with each other expressing ideas and so on. They did tell you about

6:28 ideas and so on. They did tell you about

6:28 ideas and so on. They did tell you about the extensive training that their

6:29 the extensive training that their

6:29 the extensive training that their animals had.

6:31 animals had.

6:31 animals had. And they then turned around and

6:32 And they then turned around and

6:32 And they then turned around and attributed the behavior they were

6:34 attributed the behavior they were

6:34 attributed the behavior they were observing

6:35 observing

6:35 observing not to the training, but to the

6:38 not to the training, but to the

6:38 not to the training, but to the information and knowledge that the

6:40 information and knowledge that the

6:40 information and knowledge that the chimps possessed, to a message that was

6:42 chimps possessed, to a message that was

6:42 chimps possessed, to a message that was being transmitted from one to the other,

6:44 being transmitted from one to the other,

6:44 being transmitted from one to the other, to the intentions of the chimps and that

6:47 to the intentions of the chimps and that

6:47 to the intentions of the chimps and that kind of thing. In other words, they

6:48 kind of thing. In other words, they

6:48 kind of thing. In other words, they turned around and interpreted this

6:50 turned around and interpreted this

6:50 turned around and interpreted this behavior in everyday human

6:54 behavior in everyday human

6:54 behavior in everyday human cognitive terms. And so we arranged a

6:58 cognitive terms. And so we arranged a

6:58 cognitive terms. And so we arranged a situation in which pigeons would do even

7:01 situation in which pigeons would do even

7:01 situation in which pigeons would do even more complicated communication, if

7:04 more complicated communication, if

7:04 more complicated communication, if that's what you're going to call it. And

7:07 that's what you're going to call it. And

7:07 that's what you're going to call it. And they did indeed succeed in getting what

7:11 they did indeed succeed in getting what

7:11 they did indeed succeed in getting what certainly looks like the behavior of a

7:12 certainly looks like the behavior of a

7:12 certainly looks like the behavior of a speaker and the behavior of a listener.

7:15 speaker and the behavior of a listener.

7:15 speaker and the behavior of a listener. Epstein and Skinner, with colleague

7:17 Epstein and Skinner, with colleague

7:17 Epstein and Skinner, with colleague Robert Lanza, trained two pigeons whom

7:19 Robert Lanza, trained two pigeons whom

7:19 Robert Lanza, trained two pigeons whom they named Jack and Jill over a 5-week

7:21 they named Jack and Jill over a 5-week

7:21 they named Jack and Jill over a 5-week period using standard laboratory

7:23 period using standard laboratory

7:23 period using standard laboratory techniques called shaping, fading,

7:26 techniques called shaping, fading,

7:26 techniques called shaping, fading, chaining, and discrimination training.

7:29 chaining, and discrimination training.

7:29 chaining, and discrimination training. Jack and Jill could observe each other

7:31 Jack and Jill could observe each other

7:31 Jack and Jill could observe each other through a clear plastic partition and

7:34 through a clear plastic partition and

7:34 through a clear plastic partition and could each peck plastic keys on the

7:35 could each peck plastic keys on the

7:35 could each peck plastic keys on the panel in front of them.

7:37 panel in front of them.

7:37 panel in front of them. Jack's task was to peck one of three

7:39 Jack's task was to peck one of three

7:39 Jack's task was to peck one of three colors, red, green, or yellow, which

7:42 colors, red, green, or yellow, which

7:42 colors, red, green, or yellow, which matched a color only Jill could see.

7:45 matched a color only Jill could see.

7:45 matched a color only Jill could see. When conditioning was complete, Jack,

7:48 When conditioning was complete, Jack,

7:48 When conditioning was complete, Jack, the bird on the left, initiated each

7:50 the bird on the left, initiated each

7:50 the bird on the left, initiated each exchange by pecking and thus

7:52 exchange by pecking and thus

7:52 exchange by pecking and thus illuminating a sign on his side of the

7:54 illuminating a sign on his side of the

7:54 illuminating a sign on his side of the partition labeled what color.

7:56 partition labeled what color.

7:56 partition labeled what color. Jill, the bird on the right, then thrust

7:58 Jill, the bird on the right, then thrust

7:58 Jill, the bird on the right, then thrust her head through a curtain on her side

8:00 her head through a curtain on her side

8:00 her head through a curtain on her side of the chamber where a color was

8:02 of the chamber where a color was

8:02 of the chamber where a color was illuminated.

8:03 illuminated.

8:03 illuminated. She then pecked the corresponding letter

8:05 She then pecked the corresponding letter

8:05 She then pecked the corresponding letter on her panel, R for red, G for green,

8:09 on her panel, R for red, G for green,

8:09 on her panel, R for red, G for green, and Y for yellow.

8:11 and Y for yellow.

8:11 and Y for yellow. Having seen this, Jack pecked a sign

8:13 Having seen this, Jack pecked a sign

8:13 Having seen this, Jack pecked a sign labeled thank you, operating Jill's

8:15 labeled thank you, operating Jill's

8:15 labeled thank you, operating Jill's feeder for a few seconds.

8:18 feeder for a few seconds.

8:18 feeder for a few seconds. Finally, Jack pecked the color key

8:19 Finally, Jack pecked the color key

8:19 Finally, Jack pecked the color key corresponding to the letter Jill had

8:21 corresponding to the letter Jill had

8:21 corresponding to the letter Jill had illuminated, and this response operated

8:24 illuminated, and this response operated

8:24 illuminated, and this response operated Jack's feeder for a few seconds.

8:26 Jack's feeder for a few seconds.

8:26 Jack's feeder for a few seconds. After feeding, Jack then initiated a new

8:28 After feeding, Jack then initiated a new

8:28 After feeding, Jack then initiated a new exchange. Watch the exchange in slow

8:31 exchange. Watch the exchange in slow

8:31 exchange. Watch the exchange in slow motion.

8:32 motion.

8:32 motion. Jack pecks what color.

8:35 Jack pecks what color.

8:35 Jack pecks what color. Jill thrusts her head behind the curtain

8:37 Jill thrusts her head behind the curtain

8:37 Jill thrusts her head behind the curtain and then pecks the letter corresponding

8:39 and then pecks the letter corresponding

8:39 and then pecks the letter corresponding to the color she has seen as Jack

8:41 to the color she has seen as Jack

8:41 to the color she has seen as Jack watches her closely.

8:43 watches her closely.

8:43 watches her closely. Jack pecks the thank you key as Jill

8:45 Jack pecks the thank you key as Jill

8:45 Jack pecks the thank you key as Jill looks on intently.

8:47 looks on intently.

8:47 looks on intently. Finally, Jack pecks the color key which

8:49 Finally, Jack pecks the color key which

8:49 Finally, Jack pecks the color key which operates his feeder.

8:51 operates his feeder.

8:51 operates his feeder. The birds engaged in this exchange with

8:53 The birds engaged in this exchange with

8:53 The birds engaged in this exchange with greater than 90% accuracy for extended

8:56 greater than 90% accuracy for extended

8:56 greater than 90% accuracy for extended periods of time.

8:58 periods of time.

8:58 periods of time. A new color appeared at random behind

9:00 A new color appeared at random behind

9:00 A new color appeared at random behind the curtain after each trial. Incorrect

9:02 the curtain after each trial. Incorrect

9:02 the curtain after each trial. Incorrect pecks turned the chamber lights off for

9:04 pecks turned the chamber lights off for

9:04 pecks turned the chamber lights off for a few seconds.

9:07 a few seconds.

9:07 a few seconds. But as scientists, I don't think we can

9:09 But as scientists, I don't think we can

9:09 But as scientists, I don't think we can claim that we learned much new from this

9:11 claim that we learned much new from this

9:11 claim that we learned much new from this exchange.

9:13 exchange.

9:13 exchange. Uh

9:14 Uh

9:14 Uh what we It was really more a

9:15 what we It was really more a

9:15 what we It was really more a demonstration than anything else. What

9:16 demonstration than anything else. What

9:16 demonstration than anything else. What we had done was simp was was show that

9:20 we had done was simp was was show that

9:20 we had done was simp was was show that uh that some environmental history, a

9:23 uh that some environmental history, a

9:23 uh that some environmental history, a certain set of experiences, if you will,

9:26 certain set of experiences, if you will,

9:26 certain set of experiences, if you will, can can produce

9:28 can can produce

9:28 can can produce very complicated language-like behavior

9:31 very complicated language-like behavior

9:31 very complicated language-like behavior in simple organisms. We had an apparatus

9:33 in simple organisms. We had an apparatus

9:33 in simple organisms. We had an apparatus in which we had one pigeon talking to

9:35 in which we had one pigeon talking to

9:35 in which we had one pigeon talking to another and we exchanged the roles. They

9:38 another and we exchanged the roles. They

9:38 another and we exchanged the roles. They could go either way. Either pigeon could

9:40 could go either way. Either pigeon could

9:40 could go either way. Either pigeon could be a speaker and either one could be a

9:41 be a speaker and either one could be a

9:41 be a speaker and either one could be a listener. So it was a natural thing to

9:43 listener. So it was a natural thing to

9:43 listener. So it was a natural thing to do to take out the partition and put

9:45 do to take out the partition and put

9:45 do to take out the partition and put just one pigeon in and see whether it

9:48 just one pigeon in and see whether it

9:48 just one pigeon in and see whether it would, in a sense, talk to itself. And

9:51 would, in a sense, talk to itself. And

9:51 would, in a sense, talk to itself. And that's what actually happened.

9:53 that's what actually happened.

9:53 that's what actually happened. After a few minutes in this situation, a

9:55 After a few minutes in this situation, a

9:55 After a few minutes in this situation, a smooth sequence of behaviors emerged.

9:58 smooth sequence of behaviors emerged.

9:58 smooth sequence of behaviors emerged. Jack thrust his head behind the curtain

10:00 Jack thrust his head behind the curtain

10:00 Jack thrust his head behind the curtain where the color was illuminated and

10:01 where the color was illuminated and

10:01 where the color was illuminated and then, although not required to do so,

10:04 then, although not required to do so,

10:04 then, although not required to do so, pecked the corresponding letter key.

10:07 pecked the corresponding letter key.

10:07 pecked the corresponding letter key. He then moved to the left side of the

10:09 He then moved to the left side of the

10:09 He then moved to the left side of the chamber and pecked the appropriate color

10:11 chamber and pecked the appropriate color

10:11 chamber and pecked the appropriate color key, often looking back at the

10:13 key, often looking back at the

10:13 key, often looking back at the illuminated letter key. It seemed the

10:15 illuminated letter key. It seemed the

10:15 illuminated letter key. It seemed the pigeon was using the letter keys as

10:17 pigeon was using the letter keys as

10:17 pigeon was using the letter keys as humans use a memorandum.

10:19 humans use a memorandum.

10:19 humans use a memorandum. In casual terms, the pigeon pecked the

10:21 In casual terms, the pigeon pecked the

10:21 In casual terms, the pigeon pecked the letter key to help it remember the

10:22 letter key to help it remember the

10:22 letter key to help it remember the hidden color. Both birds repeated the

10:25 hidden color. Both birds repeated the

10:25 hidden color. Both birds repeated the sequence thousands of times.

10:28 sequence thousands of times.

10:28 sequence thousands of times. We did a series of tests over a period

10:29 We did a series of tests over a period

10:29 We did a series of tests over a period of about 5 months

10:32 of about 5 months

10:32 of about 5 months uh that convinced us anyway that our

10:35 uh that convinced us anyway that our

10:35 uh that convinced us anyway that our guess our original

10:36 guess our original

10:36 guess our original uh guess was right that these pigeons

10:38 uh guess was right that these pigeons

10:38 uh guess was right that these pigeons were indeed using the symbol keys as we

10:40 were indeed using the symbol keys as we

10:41 were indeed using the symbol keys as we use memoranda.

10:42 use memoranda.

10:42 use memoranda. Uh for example, we found that if we

10:44 Uh for example, we found that if we

10:44 Uh for example, we found that if we would remove the curtain from in front

10:46 would remove the curtain from in front

10:46 would remove the curtain from in front of the hidden color

10:48 of the hidden color

10:48 of the hidden color uh that's making the task much easier

10:51 uh that's making the task much easier

10:51 uh that's making the task much easier uh

10:51 uh

10:51 uh Jack or Jill

10:53 Jack or Jill

10:53 Jack or Jill uh after a period of weeks would stop

10:55 uh after a period of weeks would stop

10:55 uh after a period of weeks would stop using the the symbol keys. That is, it

10:58 using the the symbol keys. That is, it

10:58 using the the symbol keys. That is, it would simply go color to color color

11:01 would simply go color to color color

11:01 would simply go color to color color yellow and then walk across the chamber

11:03 yellow and then walk across the chamber

11:03 yellow and then walk across the chamber and um and peck yellow.

11:05 and um and peck yellow.

11:05 and um and peck yellow. If we then made the task harder by

11:07 If we then made the task harder by

11:07 If we then made the task harder by reintroducing the curtain uh

11:10 reintroducing the curtain uh

11:10 reintroducing the curtain uh the at least one of the pigeons went

11:12 the at least one of the pigeons went

11:12 the at least one of the pigeons went back to using

11:14 back to using

11:14 back to using uh the symbol keys and and virtually

11:16 uh the symbol keys and and virtually

11:16 uh the symbol keys and and virtually without error.

11:18 without error.

11:18 without error. Uh with Jill, we made the task even

11:20 Uh with Jill, we made the task even

11:20 Uh with Jill, we made the task even harder still by introducing a delay

11:24 harder still by introducing a delay

11:24 harder still by introducing a delay between her peck at the the hidden color

11:28 between her peck at the the hidden color

11:28 between her peck at the the hidden color and the availability of the color keys

11:30 and the availability of the color keys

11:30 and the availability of the color keys on the left-hand side of the chamber

11:33 on the left-hand side of the chamber

11:33 on the left-hand side of the chamber and when we made that delay long enough,

11:35 and when we made that delay long enough,

11:35 and when we made that delay long enough, her her her um

11:36 her her her um

11:37 her her her um she made more and more errors until

11:38 she made more and more errors until

11:38 she made more and more errors until finally uh she began pecking at those

11:41 finally uh she began pecking at those

11:41 finally uh she began pecking at those letter keys to bridge the delay.

11:44 letter keys to bridge the delay.

11:44 letter keys to bridge the delay. Well, we feel that under these

11:46 Well, we feel that under these

11:46 Well, we feel that under these circumstances,

11:48 circumstances,

11:48 circumstances, two repertoires, which we had set up

11:50 two repertoires, which we had set up

11:50 two repertoires, which we had set up separately, speaker and listener,

11:53 separately, speaker and listener,

11:53 separately, speaker and listener, actually came together quite

11:54 actually came together quite

11:54 actually came together quite spontaneously. We did not train

11:57 spontaneously. We did not train

11:57 spontaneously. We did not train uh the bird to use a memorandum. We

12:00 uh the bird to use a memorandum. We

12:00 uh the bird to use a memorandum. We trained it to be a speaker and a

12:02 trained it to be a speaker and a

12:02 trained it to be a speaker and a listener and quite without uh exception,

12:05 listener and quite without uh exception,

12:05 listener and quite without uh exception, it began to talk to itself.

12:08 it began to talk to itself.

12:08 it began to talk to itself. I think we had we had seen in the

12:10 I think we had we had seen in the

12:10 I think we had we had seen in the memorandum experiment uh

12:12 memorandum experiment uh

12:12 memorandum experiment uh the emergence of

12:14 the emergence of

12:14 the emergence of genuinely uh new behavior.

12:17 genuinely uh new behavior.

12:17 genuinely uh new behavior. We had seen the emergence of behavior

12:19 We had seen the emergence of behavior

12:19 We had seen the emergence of behavior that could be interpreted

12:21 that could be interpreted

12:21 that could be interpreted in human terms, that was meaningful in

12:23 in human terms, that was meaningful in

12:23 in human terms, that was meaningful in human terms.

12:24 human terms.

12:24 human terms. And that it it was it was functionally

12:27 And that it it was it was functionally

12:27 And that it it was it was functionally distinct. I mean, it did something new.

12:30 distinct. I mean, it did something new.

12:30 distinct. I mean, it did something new. We became increasingly interested simply

12:31 We became increasingly interested simply

12:31 We became increasingly interested simply in sources of new behavior, sources of

12:35 in sources of new behavior, sources of

12:35 in sources of new behavior, sources of novelty that are not particularly

12:36 novelty that are not particularly

12:36 novelty that are not particularly mysterious, but where the controlling

12:38 mysterious, but where the controlling

12:38 mysterious, but where the controlling stimuli are are readily apparent. Uh one

12:41 stimuli are are readily apparent. Uh one

12:41 stimuli are are readily apparent. Uh one such source, for example, that's very

12:43 such source, for example, that's very

12:43 such source, for example, that's very important uh for children

12:46 important uh for children

12:46 important uh for children is uh imitation.

12:49 is uh imitation.

12:49 is uh imitation. apple

12:50 apple

12:50 apple ba

12:51 ba

12:51 ba Say apple.

12:54 apple

12:56 apple

12:56 apple We had planned uh simply to teach one

12:58 We had planned uh simply to teach one

12:58 We had planned uh simply to teach one pigeon to imitate another and then to

13:00 pigeon to imitate another and then to

13:00 pigeon to imitate another and then to see whether this tendency to imitate

13:03 see whether this tendency to imitate

13:03 see whether this tendency to imitate would generalize to new responses.

13:06 would generalize to new responses.

13:06 would generalize to new responses. Uh

13:06 Uh

13:06 Uh we had taken it for granted when we

13:08 we had taken it for granted when we

13:08 we had taken it for granted when we began this work that there

13:10 began this work that there

13:11 began this work that there there wouldn't be much in the way of

13:12 there wouldn't be much in the way of

13:12 there wouldn't be much in the way of spontaneous imitation, that we would

13:14 spontaneous imitation, that we would

13:14 spontaneous imitation, that we would have to teach the imitation to begin

13:16 have to teach the imitation to begin

13:16 have to teach the imitation to begin with.

13:17 with.

13:17 with. And then uh to our surprise, one day,

13:19 And then uh to our surprise, one day,

13:19 And then uh to our surprise, one day, one of our undergraduate uh research

13:21 one of our undergraduate uh research

13:21 one of our undergraduate uh research assistants

13:23 assistants

13:23 assistants um

13:24 um

13:25 um literally ran into the office and and

13:27 literally ran into the office and and

13:27 literally ran into the office and and said that uh one of the the pigeon she

13:29 said that uh one of the the pigeon she

13:30 said that uh one of the the pigeon she was working with was spontaneously

13:32 was working with was spontaneously

13:32 was working with was spontaneously imitating another bird that was that was

13:35 imitating another bird that was that was

13:35 imitating another bird that was that was getting reinforcement for uh I believe

13:37 getting reinforcement for uh I believe

13:37 getting reinforcement for uh I believe it was pecking a ping-pong ball. Well, I

13:39 it was pecking a ping-pong ball. Well, I

13:39 it was pecking a ping-pong ball. Well, I had actually made a mistake many years

13:40 had actually made a mistake many years

13:40 had actually made a mistake many years ago. I tried to show imitation in a

13:42 ago. I tried to show imitation in a

13:43 ago. I tried to show imitation in a pigeon hadn't got it and in the

13:44 pigeon hadn't got it and in the

13:44 pigeon hadn't got it and in the textbook, which I'm now sorry about, I

13:46 textbook, which I'm now sorry about, I

13:46 textbook, which I'm now sorry about, I said that animals at that level imitate

13:50 said that animals at that level imitate

13:50 said that animals at that level imitate only when the behavior is uh instinctive

13:52 only when the behavior is uh instinctive

13:52 only when the behavior is uh instinctive behavior.

13:53 behavior.

13:53 behavior. But what we did was to set up a

13:55 But what we did was to set up a

13:55 But what we did was to set up a situation in which one pigeon seeing

13:58 situation in which one pigeon seeing

13:58 situation in which one pigeon seeing another behaving in a particular way

14:00 another behaving in a particular way

14:00 another behaving in a particular way would have an opportunity uh to imitate

14:03 would have an opportunity uh to imitate

14:03 would have an opportunity uh to imitate and to our surprise, that happened.