Chace Crawford | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

0:00 It's a perfect setup.

0:01 Just turn this transition to the the garage, huh?

0:04 Yeah, so we did um record upstairs only audio only.

0:11 Right.

0:11 Directly above us there's a little attic.

0:13 Everything's video though now, too, isn't it?

0:15 It's awesome.

0:15 Yeah.

0:16 We hated the idea.

0:19 Did you, yeah?

0:20 Yeah, but they forced us uh as part of our new Wondery deal.

0:23 Well, it's probably the smartest thing.

0:24 I mean, talk These are the These are the talk shows, you know?

0:27 It's just like the real deal.

0:30 Hey Mike, how are you?

0:31 So, you work with Caroline?

0:32 I did.

0:32 Yeah, she told me to tell you hi.

0:34 She's the best.

0:35 Yeah.

0:35 you're having my favorite person on.

0:37 Who Oh my god, I got that call, too.

0:38 Who Who's Caroline?

0:40 Caroline?

0:40 In the city?

0:41 The John.

0:44 Stylist.

0:44 She is.

0:44 Yeah, yeah.

0:45 Stylist to the stars.

0:47 Incredible lady.

0:48 And she's just like the coolest person in general.

0:51 you guys hang out after hours and I invited myself.

0:54 You should come one time.

0:55 We do uh we'll go to like uh Escuela Taqueria on like a Friday.

0:59 Yeah, margarita.

1:00 Escuela Taqueria.

1:01 Never been to Escuela?

1:02 No.

1:02 It's great.

1:03 It's like Well, it used to be like the kind

1:06 of the secret no one knew the tacos in LA,

1:09 but it was like they do like the fried like OG hard shell taco.

1:13 That's my jam is hard shell.

1:14 Yeah, me too.

1:15 And it's it's awesome.

1:16 ever tried Baja California in that dumpy[ __] shitty little Oh,

1:20 I know what that is.

1:22 Right next to Subway at at Franklin and Hillhurst.

1:25 Okay, I have not.

1:25 That's I want to try it.

1:27 Hard shell taco I've ever had.

1:28 Okay, I'm doing that today.

1:30 Okay.

1:31 really big claim.

1:32 100% I might go after this this Friday.

1:34 I'll give you testimony.

1:35 I don't Do you know Ryan Hansen, that actor?

1:37 Yeah, I do actually.

1:38 Okay, great.

1:38 So, Ryan and his wife were over last week to watch the Peaky Blinders movie.

1:43 Oh, amazing.

1:43 [snorts]

1:43 And I went up there and I got six hard shell tacos for all of us.

1:47 So, 24 hard shell tacos.

1:49 Oh my gosh.

1:50 And Ryan and Amy were like, "This is bonkers.

1:51 What's going on?" And Chase, they all were eaten.

1:55 And the whole time we were watching Peaky Blinders,

1:56 many of us were going like, "My god, go for more of those tacos." [laughter]

2:00 Like, I don't know how many it would take to get my fill of those tacos.

2:04 You wanted more, I know.

2:04 I know.

2:05 And like, they're they're addicting, I mean.

2:06 I pray you try it, and then the next time I run into you,

2:09 you go, "My god, you were right."

2:10 going [laughter]

2:11 Yeah.

2:11 Let's after this, let's go grab some uh

2:14 Dude, I'm down.

2:15 Yeah, yeah, in Maru, and uh you know, go get a taco.

2:17 Yeah.

2:18 Okay, so back to your thing.

2:19 Sorry I hijacked with my heart full of tacos.

2:21 a really lovely friend in common.

2:23 So, similarly, I got a text last night from Jamie Feld.

2:26 Oh, you know Jamie?

2:27 Yes, I know she's not my agent or anything, but I'm friends with her and Zegers.

2:30 Oh, it's amazing, too.

2:31 Yes, yes, Kevin's great.

2:33 And she texts me and said, "You're talking to my favorite person."

2:35 Oh, you love it.

2:38 Jamie is the best.

2:40 I've been with her for like 20 years.

2:42 She was kind of with Kevin,

2:43 and then obviously now she's the head of everything over there.

2:45 So,

2:46 Yeah.

2:46 Yeah, she's awesome.

2:47 But that's pretty incredible.

2:48 I don't know if I've ever arrived, well,

2:50 I know I've never arrived anywhere and two

2:52 different people had gave testimonials about me.

2:55 That's good.

2:55 Makes [laughter] you feel good.

2:57 So, I get a text from her, I'm like,

2:58 "Yes, Jamie's te- Jamie's texting." But but Kev's great.

3:01 I've known Kevin for years.

3:02 [snorts and clears throat] did um a movie together?

3:04 We did uh a movie, and he was on Gossip Girl years and years ago.

3:09 Like in 20- I don't even know when, but it was

3:11 Oh, yeah, he was like a bad guy.

3:14 baddie?

3:13 He was on there for like a fog.

3:14 It's like 6 to 8 months, you know, back when shows were like 26 episodes.

3:19 many.

3:21 Yeah.

3:20 Yeah.

3:20 Was he playing a boy toy?

3:22 Oh, yeah, yeah, he was a suave, you know,

3:24 we were almost like right in that same pocket, like head-to-head.

3:27 Did you guys go out on the town at all?

3:29 We did, actually.

3:30 when he really would lose himself.

3:31 Honestly, I don't know if we're recording or not.

3:33 Yeah, we always are recording.

3:35 [laughter]

3:35 No, we also cut out We cut OUT ANYTHING WE

3:37 NO, NO.

3:38 WE'RE We are super best friends.

3:40 I okay.

3:40 I yeah.

3:40 So, I'll be the judge.

3:41 So, I know I know his story.

3:43 honestly sober.

3:44 I mean, he's very

3:46 Yeah.

3:46 open about being sober.

3:47 sober.

3:47 Yeah, so I didn't know that, and then I was decidedly not um during those years,

3:52 and and we would go out, and we were friends already.

3:55 Um, always got along, but, but yeah, we, we, we'd go out,

3:59 uh, knowing that, you know, blow it up too much.

4:01 But, we got out of town in New York.

4:02 I mean, we had the keys to the city,

4:03 and he was I knew he didn't know anyone else in the cast,

4:06 and I was always looking for, you know,

4:08 like, like a like a a Yeah, yeah, exactly.

4:11 Like a homeboy I knew from LA though, too, actor.

4:13 And so, we

4:15 [laughter]

4:14 we went out, and, um, and yeah, I think that was the last run that he had.

4:18 Uh-huh.

4:18 Yeah, yeah.

4:19 Did he pee his pants at

4:20 any point?

4:21 [laughter]

4:22 That'd be probably on the mild end.

4:23 Not that I know of.

4:23 Not that I know of.

4:24 But, but I will say we had an absolute blast.

4:28 And, uh, yeah, yeah.

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5:04 I think as many of, um, us feel in this fellowship of sobriety, no regrets.

5:10 Right.

5:10 Super glad I had all those blowout nights.

5:12 I mean, I wanted to wanted to be on planet

5:14 Earth on my one trip and not do what I did.

5:16 Right.

5:16 Well, cuz you made it out alive, you know.

5:18 Made it out alive, but man, there was a lot of fun was had,

5:20 you know, till till it got dark.

5:22 I mean, there's there's good fun to be had out there.

5:24 Yeah, I mean, New York's a dangerous city.

5:27 thing, man.

5:27 Like, it got dark for me, too.

5:28 Like, it it got to be a little too much, you know?

5:30 It's like

5:31 Oh my goodness.

5:32 it's just that thing where it's it's New York.

5:34 Yeah, what do you what do you diagnose the problem is?

5:36 Cuz for me, it's a very specific thing.

5:38 Like, what's the Why is it dangerous in New York?

5:41 You know, I I now I have that romanticized relationship with the city.

5:45 Like, when I go back, it's like it just gets that that that feeling that buzz.

5:48 I don't know if I'd be able to live there again like and and and function.

5:51 Because it was just I don't know.

5:52 You're out there if the if the weather's nice,

5:54 there's always people on the patios, always something going on.

5:57 There's always like an event.

5:59 shuts down.

5:59 It never shuts down.

5:59 It really never shuts down.

6:02 Yeah.

6:01 And no cars.

6:03 And no cars.

6:04 No cars makes a huge difference.

6:06 walking around like let's grab a you know,

6:08 a wine at the you know, three it's a Tuesday and it's

6:12 because you're not driving and hurting anyone.

6:14 will say everyone wants to visit you.

6:16 So it's like there's always someone in town.

6:19 Yeah, yeah, or or there or reason to go out and it's

6:23 just Like I'm more reclusive now and I like to just you know,

6:26 be a homebody and and get groceries in the car

6:28 and it's it's New York's not really conducive to that.

6:30 So

6:31 have a dog, right?

6:32 the whole thing.

6:33 Yeah.

6:33 Yeah, my thing I was spared by having never worked there while I was an addict,

6:38 but I would go there to promote, of course.

6:42 And yeah, my issue was like the bar doesn't shut down till 4:00.

6:45 Yeah, that's another problem.

6:48 [laughter] An after party is standard.

6:48 Every night of the week someone's hosting an after party.

6:51 If you're out from, you know, two from 1:00 a.m.

6:54 if you're going to stay up till 2:00, it's not closing, you know,

6:57 you're most likely going to keep it, you know, it's let's keep it going.

7:00 But uh yeah.

7:01 Also, Gossip Girl, we just had Jennie Garth on from 90210 original.

7:05 Oh, I saw that.

7:06 Yeah, amazing.

7:07 And Gossip Girl was kind of the my Jen's 90210.

7:12 So I cannot imagine being in New York and like

7:14 seeing you guys out there and whatever freaking out.

7:18 You guys were all fine and like

7:20 If you would have given me my first dose of fame in New York City at 22,

7:25 you were 22 years old.

7:27 And I'm making thousands a week.

7:29 I mean, forget it.

7:31 I don't know.

7:31 I don't I I'm not we're not sure I'd be here.

7:33 You wouldn't.

7:35 Yeah.

7:35 Yeah, it's a lot I mean,

7:36 it's a lot I think to get like looking back on it

7:39 like everyone sort of like it affects everyone differently like the first two

7:44 years of like fame like you got most people turn into an[ __]

7:48 in some way or they just get like paranoid and reclusive or like

7:51 paranoid route.

7:52 I read that in the interview magazine interview with you and Magnus.

7:56 Oh nice.

7:56 Thank you.

7:56 Love Magnusson.

7:57 Yeah, that was a good interview.

7:58 It was a sweet sweet interview.

8:01 Okay, but you're from you were born in Lubbock.

8:04 You moved to Minnesota for four years, yeah?

8:08 Yeah.

8:08 Yeah.

8:09 And then mom was a teacher what kind of teacher?

8:11 She was a teacher.

8:12 She kind of taught everything.

8:13 She was she was she got a masters in education but she

8:16 was mainly English but she would like substitute us in kindergarten

8:22 and like even like like throughout high school actually and she

8:24 was kind of like the coolest substitute teacher like everyone knew Mrs.

8:28 Crawford.

8:30 [laughter]

8:30 First of all there's no such thing as a cool substitute teacher.

8:33 So you're already lying.

8:36 [laughter] Everyone candy.

8:37 Your mom was hot though.

8:37 I saw a picture of her.

8:38 She is.

8:39 She was my mom's friend.

8:40 Probably.

8:40 She had you when you were 20.

8:41 You used to get it all the time in high school, man.

8:44 I learned she was 20 when she or 21 when she had you.

8:47 Exactly.

8:47 Yeah, exactly.

8:48 They had me young.

8:49 Yeah, she was like 20 or 21.

8:50 a dermatologist [clears throat] so his skin is[ __] gorgeous.

8:53 [laughter] It's glorious.

8:54 Hers too, yeah.

8:55 You got to like these genetics, yeah.

8:57 Yeah, I mean you're not doing terrible on the skin.

9:01 Well, people you know, they my dad doesn't he doesn't give me any

9:03 tips so he just it's just all genetics so yeah.

9:06 Before we proceed, I don't know why I didn't detect

9:08 this when watching The Boys which I'm an enormous fan of.

9:10 Um Love it.

9:12 Your voice is incredible.

9:14 Oh, thank you.

9:15 Did you like if you always connected I mean you could definitely not it

9:19 would be a downgrade but you could be on the radio or have a podcast.

9:22 It's such a soothing good it's got a good timbre.

9:25 Thank you.

9:25 I I went to college to do broadcast journalism

9:28 or to maybe do cuz people used to kind

9:30 of like say like oh you got a great voice

9:31 you should get into like TV or whatever, you know.

9:34 And I you know, really fast learned that I was not good at that.

9:36 Like if you didn't want to do broadcast journalism, sports,

9:39 you know, in in sports, even though I love sports.

9:41 But, yeah.

9:42 But, thank you.

9:43 Ironic though, cuz Candace, is that your sister?

9:44 She is.

9:45 She's a journalist sports journalist.

9:47 that's how she met her husband.

9:48 Yeah.

9:49 Okay, so back to how old were you when you left Lubbock and went to Minnesota?

9:54 We were there we were in Lubbock for like a year

9:56 and then and then my dad's side of the family is from Oklahoma.

9:59 So, Oklahoma City for like 4 years where he did med school at OU.

10:04 So, Boomer Sooner.

10:05 He's a you know, we're all Oklahoma Sooner fans in college.

10:08 Uh and and his family was there.

10:10 We moved to Minnesota.

10:11 I was about 5 that was like 5 to 10 years old about.

10:14 So, he did a residency program.

10:16 Again, they they were young like 21, 22.

10:18 I can't imagine having like two kids and not a lot of money, you know,

10:22 you before he became a doctor and and trying

10:24 to get through med school and then going up to Minnesota.

10:26 So, those were some of the best times.

10:28 You must have a little bit of mixed culture

10:30 between southern and Minnesota cuz those are pretty formative years.

10:33 What was the vibe in elementary in Minnesota?

10:37 You know, I I remember getting to Minnesota and being in school and and having

10:40 like a like a small identity crisis cuz I felt like I'm like I don't know.

10:44 I was a Texas kid and like that's all you know, you know?

10:47 You had cowboy boots and[ __]

10:48 I was a Cowboys football fan.

10:50 Yeah, yeah, well, I mean when I was like young, yeah.

10:52 Oklahoma little cowboy boots and the hats the whole thing.

10:55 Every little boy in Texas I see has got cowboy boots on.

10:57 Right.

10:58 Right.

10:58 And you just identify with that even Oklahoma and I remember being in Minnesota

11:03 and being like what do I say who do I say I am?

11:06 Am I you know, from Minnesota?

11:08 Is it Oklahoma?

11:08 Am I from the south?

11:11 Yeah.

11:10 Uh I had I definitely had a little twang, you know,

11:12 growing up and then and then I sort

11:14 of started to have have that Minnesota the Minnesota accent.

11:18 Sure.

11:17 Like my my grandparents did not like that, you know,

11:20 saying like soda pop and you know, and they did not like that.

11:24 So, I kind of it kind of melded the accent

11:26 when I got back to to to Dallas after that.

11:29 And what kind of boy were you?

11:30 You seem like you would have gotten along with everyone.

11:33 Is that

11:34 Yeah, that was more that was more kind of the the thing.

11:37 I mean I mean, you know,

11:38 my I'm I'm I'm a bit of a people pleaser and kind

11:40 of like in that vein of like that's my, you know,

11:44 after doing a lot of therapy, yeah, that's like my thing.

11:46 You know, but that's a hard for you.

11:47 You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:49 And that was kind of part of it having

11:51 to move to Oklahoma and then Minnesota and back and always

11:54 make like a new group of friends was sort

11:56 of how I learned to survive and and when you're young,

12:00 in those in those years.

12:01 So you get to Plano for what?

12:03 Junior high or or middle school?

12:04 Middle school, yeah, fifth grade, yeah.

12:06 And how did that go?

12:07 That transition now from Minnesota to Plano?

12:10 I remember that I remember that as like a weird time.

12:14 Uh I had good like two best friends in in Minnesota,

12:17 like the bikes in the summer, the whole thing, like great really great friends.

12:22 Lake life, yeah, yeah, yeah, and lake life in Texas.

12:24 That's really all there was.

12:25 That's what we did, but that was it,

12:27 you know, with those two friends and losing them.

12:29 That was a first kind of real loss and I

12:31 remember being kind of depressed when I was 10 moving back

12:34 to Plano to Dallas and then having to this daunting task

12:37 of meeting new new people and creating new relationships again, so

12:41 you were a Vikings fan.

12:44 [laughter]

12:44 We did it at the Metrodome back in the day.

12:46 Yeah, it's not there anymore, but uh Is your sister younger or older?

12:50 She is younger by 17 months, so we're pretty pretty close in age, yeah.

12:54 okay, Irish twins, basically.

12:56 shock you, but she's also shockingly attractive.

12:59 So the whole family the whole family's

13:01 She was Miss

13:03 Yeah, she Miss

13:04 I'm going to butcher it.

13:05 She was Miss Texas, I think for or Miss Well, fact check me on that.

13:11 She's way older than me in maturity level, so yeah.

13:15 Miss

13:14 Missouri, what am I talking about?

13:15 She went to school at Mizzou.

13:17 Yes, and she was she was Miss Missouri.

13:20 And a contestant in Miss America.

13:22 America, yeah.

13:23 Now, did you grow up with everyone doing what we just did,

13:26 which is like, "Oh my god, your family is so beautiful and so perfect."

13:32 Kind of it it it was more like your mom's hot,

13:34 you know, like and your dad's handsome.

13:37 And uh yeah.

13:38 Yeah, yeah.

13:38 Although your buddies probably weren't

13:40 Probably talking about that.

13:41 __] man, your dad is handsome.

13:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:44 I would have appreciated his uh skin and his stature.

13:47 [laughter]

13:49 Okay, back to mom being a cool substitute.

13:51 Boy, these substitutes, God bless them, man.

13:54 They come in and you meet you go like,

13:55 "Oh great, we get to[ __] off today and be assholes." Completely, yeah.

13:59 That's the first thing you think.

14:00 Yeah, yeah.

14:01 So, what would happen when when if my mom walked in the classroom, I'd be like,

14:04 "Guys, this is we're not allowed to do the thing where we're[ __] today."

14:07 to be nice to my mom.

14:08 Yeah, I would have felt Well,

14:09 A, I would have felt embarrassed and then B, I would have felt protective.

14:12 This had to be tough.

14:14 No, she I she would just let everyone screw off.

14:17 That's why That's why it was good.

14:18 She would just be the cool mom.

14:20 It'd be a fun day and she would kind of I mean,

14:22 she she knew how to get everyone to kind

14:24 of around to doing what they were supposed to do,

14:26 but it would start off with like games and candy and everyone loved Mrs.

14:30 Crawford, yeah.

14:31 She was like the cool mom as well.

14:33 She was like the cool mom.

14:34 So, you weren't embarrassed that mom was there

14:36 cuz it doesn't really matter how cool mom is,

14:38 it's she's just kind of embarrassing, right, when you're a little

14:41 Well, not if you have Mrs.

14:42 Crawford, I guess.

14:44 was great.

14:45 And she and I like like you know, to fast forward to high school a little bit,

14:48 but she would she would let us let's have the party at our house.

14:51 Like she kind of wanted to like she was, you know,

14:53 and it was not she wasn't like the you know,

14:56 like removed like do whatever you want,

14:58 but she kind of wanted over at the house and that was that was

15:00 fun and people liked it and she was like the cool the cool mom, so.

15:04 Okay.

15:05 Yeah.

15:05 And um were you overly protective of little

15:08 sister or did you stay out of her business?

15:10 Were you monitoring what was going on?

15:12 No, me and my my sister was more like embarrassed of me.

15:15 I think me and my sister were so different.

15:17 She was like by high school she was on like honor council.

15:21 She was like a straight-A student, she was like, you know,

15:24 president of the whatever and I was starting

15:26 to I was starting to cut up a little bit.

15:28 Like I I was a very good student.

15:30 I I was I was I did very well in school

15:33 until about like middle of high school and I just like collapsed.

15:37 same trajectory.

15:38 It was a weird Yeah, I just I was a weird thing.

15:40 I remember being I think it was like like an early

15:42 rejection from a from a girl like in like eighth grade,

15:45 maybe freshman year, like 13, like the worst time, you know, when you're like

15:50 It's all like hilarious in hindsight.

15:52 Yeah, but you feel that thing and then it

15:54 was like I was doing I was doing school.

15:58 It was a rigorous school and I was getting really good grades

16:00 and it was sort of like all to like make my parents Yeah,

16:03 Trinity Christian Academy.

16:04 Yeah, it was like a very like kind of a strict school,

16:07 like small private school.

16:09 Uh and I I was just kind of doing everything

16:10 to like kind of please my like my parents in a way.

16:13 Like, "Hey, I'm going to get the, you know,

16:14 do this thing." And that just kind of that just ran out.

16:17 I just couldn't do that anymore and it was just like I just wanted to have fun.

16:20 Did you play any sports?

16:22 I played golf and football.

16:23 Yeah.

16:24 Yeah, I got to a point I was on this math trajectory.

16:27 I had been on the math team in junior high and then I started

16:30 the whole pre-calc thing and I just had this moment where I was like,

16:32 "Well, I'm not ever going to be a physicist or an engineer.

16:36 So, I there's no application for this in my life.

16:38 Why on earth am I learning this?"

16:41 Yeah.

16:41 And then unfortunately, I just started applying that to nearly every subject.

16:44 I'm like, "I'm not going to be a history teacher,

16:46 right?" I was like, "I'm going to live in my car like Jack Kerouac.

16:49 I don't need any of this.

16:50 What am I doing?" Did you have a game plan

16:52 of what you thought you were going to do when you That was the thing.

16:55 It was all to get into a good school.

16:56 I've noticed all this like nervous energy just

16:59 had trying to get into a good college.

17:01 Like that was like the epitome of like everyone

17:02 was just really stressed about getting into a good school,

17:05 otherwise your life was a failure, you know?

17:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:07 It was kind of like that like hamster wheel of that.

17:10 Like you never thought about like what do I actually What's

17:13 feasible in life to to go do like like you said calculus.

17:16 You're never going to you know,

17:17 I'm not going to be an engineer or computer scientist, so.

17:20 Yeah.

17:20 You know.

17:21 Yeah, in that in that mindset,

17:22 it's like if you don't get into a good school, you're going to jail.

17:25 It's like those are the two trajectories in life.

17:27 yeah, go to college or be in jail.

17:29 were so crazy.

17:30 Yeah, you don't have a complete [clears throat] frontal lobe,

17:33 so literally you probably can't think about

17:36 Completely.

17:36 what you're going to be doing in 10 years.

17:37 So that's like, oh, the next rung is college and it better be a good

17:40 one because I'm supposed to go to a good one and then you burn out.

17:44 Completely.

17:44 Yeah, it would it would was definite burnout.

17:46 Why do you think you chose Pepperdine?

17:48 To get out of Texas for 4 years.

17:50 That was kind of yeah, it was either SMU or Texas.

17:53 There was a few other schools in there,

17:54 but SMU is like Southern Methodist, it's like a 20 minutes from my house.

17:58 You know, I was like, I don't want to be 20 minutes from mom and dad.

18:02 Yeah, your mom might sub one of these classes in college.

18:05 [laughter]

18:06 She'd be terrible.

18:07 Yeah, I'd never hear the end of it after that.

18:09 You're like, "There's not supposed to be candy in college."

18:13 [laughter]

18:13 Like, "Where's the beer?"

18:14 But you don't think there's any back of your subconscious that was like,

18:17 "We We belong in California." There I was drawn to it.

18:21 Yeah, I forget what trip I took out out here and there

18:24 was there was something like at a at a deep weird level,

18:27 it just felt like I It was just I I've always been attracted to sort

18:31 of like just getting out of the bubble and meeting new people in different,

18:34 you know, walks of life and just in different uh stages,

18:38 which is why acting is one of my favorite things about acting is you always

18:40 are meeting kind of like weird interesting

18:42 people even if you don't get along, but left their hometown.

18:45 Yeah, exactly.

18:46 And I just I always thought I would go back to Texas

18:50 or I assumed and I just wanted to if I could get into Pepperdine,

18:54 I would, you know, get out of Texas for 4 years.

18:56 That was it.

18:57 Okay, so you only did a few semesters there, right, at Pepperdine?

19:00 And for people who have never seen Pepperdine, it's almost impossible.

19:03 You're on the PCH and you look

19:05 to your right and you're in the highest valued real

19:08 estate in the world and you look to your right

19:11 and there are 12 flat acres of grass.

19:15 Oh, it's not flat, but it's on a hill,

19:16 but just beautiful grass in this like picturesque college and you think,

19:21 "Who could go here?" On the way to Malibu.

19:24 Yeah, in Malibu.

19:25 Yeah, it's it's yeah, yeah, it's like a rolling hill.

19:27 You put a golf course on the land.

19:29 I don't know what they they bought in the '70s

19:31 for probably a steal and then and it's a small school relatively,

19:35 you know, but it's it's tough.

19:37 It's tough to get to class.

19:38 It's tough to make it to class.

19:40 And when you land there and like the ocean's

19:42 across the street and like what what what what You go to the beach every day.

19:46 You go to the beach.

19:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the beach.

19:48 I I met some really great friends in college like three

19:51 three dudes from Texas and from Austin and somewhere else randomly, but

19:57 [snorts]

19:56 we we got along and then that was that was like a whole realization for me.

20:02 I kind of you know, you can grow and kind of grow out

20:04 of what you were to people from like fifth grade to high school, you know.

20:10 time.

20:10 Yeah, yeah, but you know, but you know,

20:11 it was more of this you know, it was kind of like a validating thing.

20:13 I can go make make you know,

20:14 new new friends in this new big school and and and kind of be you know,

20:18 being in that next stage of of life and I got there and I'm like,

20:21 "Oh[ __] I don't know what I want to do again.

20:23 I don't know what I want to do long-term, you know, with my life."

20:28 It's occurring to you you don't want to be a journalist.

20:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:31 I was taking that communications course.

20:32 I was like, "I don't I love it.

20:34 It's great, but I'm not going to be

20:35 So, how do we decide we're going to drop out and pursue acting?

20:39 I was really naive and I I basically it was

20:42 the one time in my life my parents were kind of like,

20:45 "Hey, like you graduated high school a little bit early.

20:47 Like just take a year off." And I was like, "Really?

20:50 Like I can you know, is that is that on the table?" You know,

20:53 which was which was a nice thing and and and so I took a year off.

20:57 I was like valeting cars out there in Malibu at Geoffrey's.

21:00 Have you ever been to Geoffrey's?

21:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:04 Very short valet, right?

21:06 It's like right there.

21:07 I I lied.

21:08 I said I could drive stick.

21:09 Did not know how to drive stick.

21:11 I see you grinding up some clutches.

21:13 Oh, totally.

21:13 There's Ferraris coming through.

21:15 You've had one of the jobs it's shocking to me I never had.

21:18 I can't believe I didn't have.

21:20 I was never a valet.

21:21 I love driving cars.

21:23 And I love driving cars.

21:25 And I love tips.

21:26 Yeah, I know.

21:28 [laughter]

21:27 It's hip.

21:27 It was real I like you get it's like a high, you Yeah.

21:30 And you get to woo a new person every 5 minutes.

21:33 You get to like be charming every 5 minutes to a stranger.

21:36 Yeah.

21:36 Yeah.

21:37 Did you love it?

21:37 Was it as good as I fantasized about?

21:40 it actually.

21:40 Like it was a weird little fraternity.

21:42 There were like there were like eight dudes and like it was a hierarchy.

21:45 Some guy was like 45 and like total Venice like long hair

21:49 stoner with like the you know the dog in the truck and he

21:52 was kind of like the head guy and then if you were

21:54 on you know barely it was a tough job to get I guess.

21:57 I got like the low rung and I was like the runner.

21:59 I was like running across[ __] like PCH like Frogger.

22:04 You would you would have to floor the cars

22:06 like down PCH and they're ripping, you know.

22:09 You turn rip it back up park on the opposite side

22:12 and then run back [snorts] and forth and you're straddling the median.

22:15 It was awesome.

22:16 I loved it though.

22:17 It was great.

22:18 But it was insane.

22:19 Again my geography lessons.

22:20 PCH is the most dangerous road in California.

22:23 It has the most deaths per square mile.

22:25 It's a circus.

22:27 People are doing U-turns going to the beach.

22:29 I mean it's a mess.

22:30 Yeah, it was bad.

22:31 How many accidents do we think happen hourly?

22:34 [laughter]

22:34 Based no no in valet.

22:36 Oh, I think they're pretty good man.

22:37 I had an accident.

22:38 Yeah.

22:40 Well, I did.

22:41 So so I didn't actually like you know it wasn't like

22:43 a full wreck but I I I it was always such a rush.

22:46 You would leave cars and like park like pull them out leave them.

22:49 Well, I just jumped out of one one time and like left the door open

22:52 and and it was in neutral and I kind of hear I heard it before I saw it.

22:57 It is slowly rolled back cut speed

22:59 and And door you know Tommy Boy style hyper-extended.

23:02 I was like, "Oh, shit!" Like slow motion.

23:05 I was like, "Oh, no." And uh What did you do?

23:09 I I I [laughter] What did you do?

23:12 I just closed it and then I like let the guy figure it out, yeah.

23:15 I know, you just got to pretend like nothing happened.

23:17 Do you remember what kind of car it was?

23:18 It You know what?

23:19 It was at I My saving grace is I I hopped back in and I'm like,

23:22 "Yes, it's a rental car." It was a rental It was a rental car.

23:26 What a blessing.

23:27 a blessing because, you know,

23:28 all these things have their own insurance or whatever.

23:30 So, I told I went right away,

23:31 told the the the main real guy that ran the restaurant.

23:35 And he was like, "You need to calm down for a second.

23:37 I got something to tell you.

23:39 Harsh your high right now."

23:40 Like, "You idiot, go home.

23:41 We'll deal with this later.

23:43 But you're lucky it's a rental car, you know."

23:45 Do you remember Were you stoked when Rad Cars pulled up?

23:48 Did you care?

23:49 Yeah, I remember being very nervous when it was like a a Ferrari, you know,

23:52 and and John's like, "Get that one." You know, and it was like a paddle shift.

23:55 I had no idea how to drive.

23:57 I was like, "I don't know how to do it." I kind of learned, but it was bad.

24:00 It was not It was It wasn't easy on the car.

24:02 It wasn't a place to practice.

24:04 Um but, you know, yeah, I remember like Orlando Bloom coming in and like

24:08 tipping me money and I was like,

24:09 "Good tip." And like Kate Bosworth, I'm like, "Oh,

24:12 this is awesome." You know, like stars are here.

24:16 It was What an exciting LA job.

24:19 It was.

24:20 celebrities you see?

24:20 That's great.

24:21 Oh god, who else?

24:22 I remember and I think I've told him this when I saw him.

24:25 I'm like, "Dude, you know, you gave me a nice tip one time.

24:27 Thank you." But Uh who else came through?

24:30 It was like I remember like Suge Knight coming through,

24:32 which was weird cuz he had like punched the valet,

24:35 so everyone was scared of him.

24:36 And he was Random random people.

24:39 It was like Tommy Lee and like,

24:41 you know, like people Malibu Malibu, you know, locals.

24:44 Who's the old uh Ah, hell, Chewie.

24:46 What was that actor from 48 Hours?

24:47 Um

24:48 Nick Nolte.

24:49 Nick Nolte.

24:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:50 You ever see Nick Nolte?

24:51 I did see Nick Nolte out there.

24:52 a staple in Malibu.

24:53 Yeah, he is.

24:54 Yeah.

24:54 ever Did you Robert Downey Jr.?

24:56 Never saw Downey Jr.

24:57 No, no, no.

24:58 Keep them coming.

25:01 [laughter]

25:02 Johnny Carson, no?

25:03 He was out in Malibu.

25:04 He was there.

25:05 Oh, yeah, yeah.

25:06 Are you religious?

25:07 Cuz all Pepperdine's religious.

25:09 You went to a Catholic school.

25:12 Totally.

25:12 It was like it was like Baptist.

25:15 But yeah, so my my whole family like my dad my my mom's dad was a pastor.

25:21 Nazarene Nazarene pastor, I want to say.

25:24 in Texas.

25:26 Grew up religious.

25:27 Okay, yeah.

25:28 Didn't quite realize how strict Pepperdine was actually.

25:31 It's very, isn't it?

25:32 Oh, it's like it's I guess I don't

25:34 want to butcher I think it's Church of Christ,

25:35 which is very like no no instruments in worship and

25:41 [laughter] No fun.

25:43 So Yeah, good.

25:46 But they would give you you know, I would have been like the lower like

25:49 in the dorms there was like a lower and upper.

25:51 I was on the lower, but they would if you had a girl

25:53 in your room or vice versa past like 11 or 11:30 p.m.

25:57 Something really kind of weird.

25:59 They'd give you like a demerit, you know,

26:00 and there was like three demerits, whatever.

26:02 I don't know what happens,

26:03 but like that mag the Maglite would come through and I'd be

26:06 caught not in a compromising it was like you were literally just talking,

26:08 you know, like normal.

26:09 college.

26:10 Like this isn't high school.

26:12 So I do remember that yeah like the Maglite like get the you know,

26:15 get out of there and then and it was I quickly realized yeah,

26:18 you got to kind of there was like small little fraternities

26:21 that were just basically like friend groups to go to have you know,

26:24 to actually be able to have fun off off campus.

26:27 know it was that

26:28 It's very strict.

26:29 Strict, huh?

26:29 Yeah, I didn't either till I showed up.

26:32 [laughter] Okay, was it great money too?

26:34 Like what kind of I'm sorry.

26:35 We're going to move off of valet in soon, but I'm so envious of this role.

26:39 __] In fact, that's another job I could do in retirement other than 7-Eleven.

26:43 That's better than 7-Eleven.

26:45 It was I remember feeling so lucky to have the job cuz a buddy

26:48 in in college a good friend was older and he had the job,

26:52 but he couldn't do it so he kind of like, "Hey, I'm giving this to you.

26:55 It's tough slot.

26:56 Everyone wants this thing." Yeah.

26:59 And you know, and he knew I couldn't really drive stick but he vouched for me.

27:02 And it was like I was in this little cool fraternity and it was

27:04 like summer time there and you'd have like family meal whatever they call it.

27:09 I'm like, "Ooh, cool." Like they would cook

27:11 the food and you'd eat some of the restaurant Yeah,

27:12 free meal like cash.

27:14 guess what you were making a shift?

27:17 yeah.

27:17 I'm going to go with 350.

27:20 [laughter]

27:19 But then 10.

27:20 I wish I knew.

27:22 I wish I Yeah, 350.

27:23 I thought you meant $3.

27:24 I could remember.

27:25 I guarantee you it was somewhere around that.

27:27 Yeah, cuz you got to keep Yeah.

27:29 Yeah.

27:29 But on a big night, I remember going home with some good

27:31 tips and that was it was like it was like a dopamine hit.

27:34 It was like a slot machine mentality like what's going

27:37 to happen next and it was like a lot of fun.

27:39 And this was 2004 or 5?

27:41 Exactly.

27:42 2000 summer of '04.

27:44 So it's cash baby too.

27:45 You're you're walking with hard cash.

27:47 Yeah.

27:48 Yeah.

27:50 __]

27:49 I know.

27:49 It was great.

27:50 I was living in Malibu with like four other dudes in this house.

27:54 Kind of a decrepit like 70s house that had been

27:56 updated but like we had this like cool little spot.

27:59 They were like surfers and it was a lot of fun.

28:01 This could be a reality show.

28:03 days.

28:03 I know.

28:03 Now I'm like 40 I'm like

28:05 Was it going to get any better than that?

28:06 No, it's all right.

28:08 I know.

28:09 I'm so jealous of this whole [laughter]

28:11 this whole spell of yours.

28:13 Okay, so how do we get from there to 2006 The Covenant?

28:17 So yeah, so I was I I was taking an acting

28:20 Got into an acting class.

28:22 class.

28:22 Meisner class, exactly.

28:23 I forget the name of it but it was a more serious class.

28:26 A friend was doing acting.

28:27 I had done some acting in in high school

28:30 and I was like always sort of um artistically inclined.

28:33 I did photography.

28:34 I loved it.

28:34 I painted.

28:35 I drew.

28:35 And so my parents kind of like,

28:37 "Why don't you just kind of like do to get out of your shell?

28:39 Like just take an acting class." And I randomly got

28:42 this Uber a very serious Meisner I knew nothing about it.

28:47 And I just grab I just loved it.

28:49 I loved watching it.

28:50 It was so abstract about coming to the door and the ex- and I like was like,

28:54 "What is this?" You know.

28:55 feel panicked like this is I'm out of my depth?

28:58 I did I wasn't trying to be an actor.

29:00 I was so naive.

29:01 There was no pressure.

29:02 It was just fun, you know?

29:04 And like

29:06 great.

29:05 And and these kids were in there really trying and I I was like, "Okay,

29:09 I'm going to like try and be this good actor within

29:11 class." I was never thinking about really like becoming an actor.

29:15 And did you get an agent from that class or what?

29:17 I had like a like a friend of a I just kept kind of networking

29:20 and I a friend was like a man it turned like actress to a manager was like,

29:24 "Hey, I know this uh very low boutique small like agency.

29:29 It was probably more like a management company as today

29:31 just a few people." And I went with them, yeah.

29:36 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

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31:38 This is where people-pleasing

31:40 Like people-pleasing gets a bad rap.

31:42 [laughter] It does.

31:44 Yeah.

31:43 But this is where it's great, right?

31:44 Cuz I wasn't a people-pleaser.

31:46 And Right.

31:48 consequently, no one wanted to help me cuz I didn't you know,

31:50 I didn't avail myself at all.

31:52 Right.

31:53 Right.

31:53 to act like I knew everything and Right.

31:55 Right.

31:55 don't help me and I got it figured out.

31:57 And of course, no one tried to help me

31:58 cuz it didn't seem like I was open to that.

32:01 Yeah.

32:01 Yeah.

32:01 I I didn't have a[ __] agent for like 6 years and I wanted one, you know.

32:05 Really?

32:05 Yeah.

32:06 And I didn't get a job at a valet.

32:07 Like I I'm already like I can see the value like

32:10 you're nice and and uh there's a great word for it.

32:14 I mean, no.

32:15 I mean

32:15 Well, I I was a bit like I was a bit of a chameleon as well.

32:18 Like to to like try and like survive in it when I was a kid,

32:21 you know, you learn it was kind of a survival thing to make new friends and

32:24 Yeah, all the different

32:25 groups.

32:26 Like it wasn't like I was like complete changing who I was.

32:28 I mean, but you I could I had an ability

32:30 to kind of connect with with people from all walks of life.

32:34 Yeah, and and no I and I think it's a great thing.

32:36 And then so people are like, "Yeah,

32:38 I'll vouch for you and I'll let you do Like a

32:40 Right.

32:40 Yeah.

32:41 That's what's tricky about when people are like,

32:42 "I'm going to stop being this way." And it's like,

32:44 "Well, also acknowledge none of it's good or bad.

32:47 It's like, this characteristic also got me to here.

32:50 And so, what part do I keep and what part do I get rid of?" Hard to know.

32:55 Completely.

32:55 Yeah.

32:55 And you don't really know that as as as a kid,

32:58 even in your 20s, if you haven't really examined it.

33:00 So, when you end up in The Covenant,

33:03 Yeah.

33:03 you're now like, "I want to be an actor." Clearly at that point.

33:05 That was when Yeah, so I went with this agent.

33:07 She was great.

33:08 She kind of had like uh she did guys.

33:10 And it was back when uh pilot season was a real thing,

33:12 like happening every fall.

33:13 And she was like, "I'm going to send you out for some auditions." Just randomly.

33:18 [snorts] And I was getting good feedback.

33:19 I was very green, but they're like, "Oh,

33:20 he's got like a you know, talented in this little in this thing.

33:23 And work on you know, work on this." And I was doing auditions.

33:27 And I was having fun with it cuz it was again, I was like part-time in school.

33:30 I was valet-ing cars, living in this house, and

33:34 At the beach.

33:35 Yeah, at the at the at the beach.

33:36 And then The Covenant came along eventually in 2005.

33:39 Yeah.

33:40 Yeah, and I remember it being like a cool like you know,

33:42 it was a real budget like Sony Screen Gems movie, you know, at the time.

33:46 You know, So, Taylor Kitsch was in it.

33:48 Yeah, Taylor Kitsch, Sebastian Stan.

33:53 Wow.

33:52 Uh a guy named Toby Hemingway, a British guy who we're still friends with.

33:55 And Steven Strait was like one of the guys, too.

33:57 Yeah.

33:58 Did you and Taylor get on?

34:00 We did.

34:00 Me, Taylor, and Sebastian and Toby sort

34:04 of became They're my first real like friends.

34:07 Yeah, like Taylor would like sleep on my couch back in when he'd come to LA.

34:10 And he was kind of new.

34:12 Okay, so I only know the lore of him

34:13 because I'm an enormous Friday Night Lights fan.

34:15 I've never met him.

34:16 And we'll get to that.

34:18 Um but the lore is he was a trainer.

34:21 Yeah.

34:21 Yeah.

34:22 Right?

34:22 So, at that time, was he a trainer or was he

34:24 already[ __] jacked and looking gorgeous so were you not intrigued

34:29 to go to jacked and looking gorgeous.

34:32 [laughter]

34:31 Yeah.

34:31 No, that was that's fine because I remember like

34:33 specifically remember going and meeting them for the first

34:36 time in like Montreal at the at the hotel and we were like going to eat dinner,

34:41 our first dinner in like, you know,

34:43 we all got like like spaghetti or lasagna and all

34:46 this stuff and he kind of was like looking at us.

34:49 [laughter] And he had some chicken and vegetables.

34:50 And cut cut to he's like absolutely shredded and like he was a nutritionist.

34:55 He went to school for 2 years.

34:56 He's like, "You guys are killing yourselves."

34:58 He basically well, he basically like

35:00 In hindsight it was funny.

35:00 He introduced us to all this stuff of working out and eating right

35:04 and we had a they kind of gave us a trainer, you know,

35:06 so that was like the start of like, oh,

35:08 falling in love with kind of like working

35:10 out like you were with the with the guys.

35:11 Like it was fun.

35:13 Like that was the first time I really

35:15 And looking back we were like just shoveling bread

35:17 and pasta and like that and we got we had a reason to kind of get in shape,

35:20 you know, and like it was a fun uh like boot camp type thing and

35:24 Yeah, and everyone's going to be shirtless.

35:26 Like everyone's got to You know, you got to you got to show up.

35:28 It was hilarious.

35:29 We wore blocks.

35:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:31 Sure.

35:32 So, do you love men's bodies too like that?

35:35 No, I know I've I've listened to podcast.

35:37 Yeah, no, I No, I'm you have a good routine, right?

35:39 You go to the gym and you do the full thing.

35:41 Yeah, but also I'm just obsessed with other men's bodies.

35:43 Yeah, yeah, more than my own body.

35:44 I'm much more than He loves looking at them.

35:46 If I were a good painter,

35:48 I could paint right now perfectly Taylor Kitsch's body.

35:52 [laughter] Like I know it like I know Brad Pitt's in Fight Club.

35:54 He should have We were like, "Oh my god." Cuz he he he did nutrition.

35:58 He was he was doing modeling and and but he

36:00 was like really working and he didn't have a place

36:02 in LA but he was like full on like

36:03 shredded and eating right and the whole the whole nine.

36:06 Yeah.

36:06 cuz I've kind of forgot that was him because the last

36:09 thing I saw him in I think was the Waco thing Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:13 well, he's not ripped in that at all, I don't think.

36:16 for that thing, I think.

36:17 So skinny.

36:17 So, that's kind of my new version of

36:19 Well, you need to rewatch FNL.

36:21 We just rewatched it cuz of our daughters

36:22 who were finally old enough and I was like,

36:24 "Oh right, it is the best show ever."

36:26 And the story there was like we we shot the thing, we come back,

36:29 he stays at my in my couch for like a month and he was like, "Oh,

36:31 I'm I'm like going to screen test for this show."

36:33 And uh I had been auditioning for it and I

36:37 got a screen I got a test deal

36:39 to to to read for for the quarterback, for Jason Street.

36:42 Oh my god.

36:43 And I was like so excited cuz I knew

36:45 he was he was basically going to be Riggins.

36:48 He had to think jump through one more hoop and I was like, "Oh,

36:50 the idea of like we just become friends." Like he was like my only friend in

36:54 I don't know the business is

36:55 like, "Yeah, yeah, let's move to Austin and do

36:58 [laughter] Texas football I DIDN'T GET IT.

37:00 I WAS SO so I remember being bummed for like a month and uh

37:05 Yeah, that's a heartbreaker.

37:06 That was a heartbreaker.

37:06 I remember that was my first real like that's that's a role I wanted and uh

37:10 And you'd only had good luck thus far.

37:12 No, you probably missed a lot a little bit.

37:14 Exactly.

37:15 Yeah, yeah.

37:15 It was a complete nightmare.

37:16 when I go in I get these things and then

37:18 I get friends and then we all work together.

37:19 to Austin and it's just like it's so fun.

37:21 I realized that was like the most rare situation to become

37:24 friends with those guys and uh we're still all friends, so

37:27 Now, were you able to watch the show and enjoy it or did it[ __] you up?

37:32 Did you have to boycott it cuz you didn't get it?

37:34 Cuz I I've boycotted things I didn't get.

37:36 I remember him being back in LA maybe this summer he had it on DVD.

37:40 We don't even have those anymore.

37:41 He had it.

37:42 He said, "Do you want to watch this?" I was like, "Yeah, I do.

37:44 I do." And watching the pilot was like it wasn't jealousy.

37:47 It was like it was like FOMO.

37:49 It was like, "I wish." It wasn't like I wish, you know, death upon everyone.

37:53 It was like I wish I Oh, I wish I was a part of that.

37:55 That's amazing.

37:56 The wheelchair element though.

37:59 You might have dodged a bullet.

38:00 We didn't know.

38:01 That was actually They didn't tell anyone that it was

38:03 going to be that was going to be the role.

38:04 So that was may have dodged a bullet.

38:06 Did you have any interesting interaction with Pete Berg during the uh cuz

38:10 I had one meeting with Pete Berg for people who don't know me.

38:12 He was an actor forever and then became a great director

38:14 and he directed the movie and then the pilot of that show.

38:16 Yeah.

38:16 And I had a general with him one time.

38:19 He was like 5 minutes late and they let

38:20 me sit in his office before he got in there.

38:22 And then he walked in and he had tissue

38:24 crammed in his nose that was just caked with blood.

38:26 Oh, nose bleed.

38:27 And he goes, "Oh, sorry, man.

38:28 I'm late.

38:28 I was sparring with so-and-so." I'm like,

38:30 this dude is such a raw [laughter] dog, man.

38:32 He's walking like He's broke his nose and now he's

38:35 in this meeting and he was just fighting a man [laughter]

38:37 seconds before this meeting.

38:39 That's a wild dude.

38:40 Yeah, yeah.

38:40 I've like been to dinner with him with mutual friends since.

38:43 Like he's a great guy.

38:44 I remember him in the room though and like he

38:46 I remember him being in the room and directing the audition

38:49 the screen test and throwing me like curveballs a bit

38:52 which I at the time I was like freaking out.

38:54 I'm like, I don't know how to be off the script, you know.

38:57 Yeah.

38:56 But that was In hindsight, that was cool.

38:58 Like I would appreciate that more now.

39:00 Like the improv nature of that, you know,

39:02 which which was I He's like He's okay, you're in an interview.

39:05 Like you're asking you know, he'd ask throw me questions, you know,

39:07 how would you answer this as the quarterback which really

39:09 threw me which is probably why I didn't get it.

39:11 But Yeah.

39:11 But yeah, but now I would have really I would have I would welcome that.

39:14 Okay.

39:14 And then um Gossip Girl comes pretty quickly after that, right?

39:18 So, the heartbreak [clears throat] doesn't last terribly long.

39:20 What do you think the duration is between

39:23 screen testing for Friday Night Lights and then Exactly a year.

39:25 [clears throat] It was the next pilot season.

39:28 Did you do anything in between that?

39:29 Covenant come comes out come came out.

39:30 I did I did I did like a little like it was like it wasn't Lifetime.

39:34 It was like a It was a movie.

39:36 Uh-huh.

39:35 It was It was a movie that we we shot like in Turks

39:38 and Caicos which was a lot of fun but it was very small budget.

39:41 But my mom loves the movie.

39:42 I I'm blanking on the name of it, thank god.

39:45 Don't go watch it.

39:46 But I remember seeing that was cool.

39:48 I remember all you know exactly.

39:52 [laughter]

39:52 No, you shouldn't say the wrong name of the movie so we go watch it like that.

39:55 They changed the name of it but it was

39:57 like it was They changed it's bad name anyway.

39:58 But but I remember Just call it like The Six Sons or something.

40:01 Yeah, exactly.

40:01 Something [laughter] ridiculous.

40:03 No, but but we I came back and I got like a I kind of like got

40:07 with ICM the new agency or whatever cuz the Covenant

40:09 came out I kind of got a little heat,

40:11 you know, yeah, exactly.

40:12 Like whatever that's from and it was like, "Ooh,

40:14 I'm I'm doing the thing." Uh and then and then and then I remember going

40:18 with into their office to to see the pilots and it was like all you know,

40:22 hard these hard scripts and it said Gossip Girl.

40:24 I'm like, that's like the stupidest name ever for a show, you know?

40:27 I was like, they're going to change that name.

40:31 Sounds a little emasculating.

40:32 Like, I'm going to be on a show called Gossip Girl?

40:34 It sounds so I didn't realize it was a like

40:36 a whole book franchise and they had people that were uh,

40:39 you know, fans of it and

40:40 I'm offended you hadn't been reading the Gossip Girl YA Yeah,

40:45 [laughter] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

40:45 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

40:45 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

40:46 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

40:46 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

40:47 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

40:47 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

40:48 But no, but then that was like a six, you know, back when you would have to read

40:51 for the first couple people then like producers,

40:53 director, execs and then you're in like

40:55 the conference room with like the stadium seating.

40:58 And for people who don't know,

40:59 you also at some point in auditioning, they make you negotiate your contract.

41:04 Right.

41:04 They don't let you go in and read for network without a contract cuz

41:07 they don't want to fall in love with you and then you have the leverage.

41:10 Leverage.

41:10 The leverage thing, yeah.

41:11 So at that point when you're which by today's standards we

41:14 both know it's probably not a lot of money, but uh,

41:16 at 21 years old when you negotiated

41:18 that contract for that last audition and you're like,

41:22 I'm going to make hundreds of thousands of dollars if we do I mean,

41:25 what was your brain doing at that moment?

41:27 Oh, it was such a high.

41:28 I remember thinking it was just the I'd won the lottery.

41:32 Yeah.

41:32 Like, you know, and you're not doing all

41:33 the math of like the percentage that everyone takes and

41:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

41:37 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

41:38 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

41:38 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

41:39 per episode times how many, you know?

41:41 I got to just want to drive a Ferrari.

41:45 [laughter] One's certainly in my future.

41:47 I'm going back.

41:47 Yeah, I'm going back to that job.

41:49 But but you know, and and lo and behold,

41:52 it's like the lowest possible thing for six years.

41:54 But you but you know, you sign your life away for six years,

41:56 too, which is also interesting, you know?

41:58 You're not you're not really thinking about that and

42:00 Hell no.

42:00 But you know, if you you know,

42:01 you don't even know if it's going to be successful.

42:02 So it's like that's like a pipe dream.

42:04 So one cute thing I learned today is that you and Ed Westwick?

42:11 Yeah.

42:10 You guys immediately start roommating together in Chelsea out of the gate.

42:15 So, like how did you How did you meet

42:17 him so quick and go like let's move in together?

42:19 How did that happen?

42:20 Honestly, we shot the pilot

42:22 Oh, okay.

42:23 in April or something or you know, this time in '07.

42:28 Uh-huh.

42:27 3 weeks in New York.

42:28 I'm like I love New York now.

42:30 It's incredible.

42:31 He was young.

42:32 He was like 18 or 19,

42:33 super young and I I remember looking at prices that summer.

42:36 I guess we got to move there now and it

42:39 was like I'm like how much is it a month?

42:41 Like it's insane.

42:42 And you just found out you're making you're keeping 40% of what you make.

42:46 [laughter]

42:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah, a little more realistic.

42:47 Yeah.

42:48 Not one check has come yet.

42:51 Uh-huh.

42:50 I'm like maybe I get a roommate, you know, maybe that's the way to go.

42:53 I was like dude, I just text him dude, you want to like live together?

42:56 Like get a room.

42:57 He's like yeah, sure, whatever man.

42:58 Like just go find it, you know.

43:01 Tell me what address to show up to.

43:02 Yeah, me and me and my mom like went up there.

43:04 We saw like three places and I was like I

43:05 guess this one will work and it was you know

43:08 Did he live in England at that time?

43:09 He'd never left his his hometown.

43:12 He'd never left like I don't know if he was outside London.

43:14 I forget the name of it,

43:15 but he was like in London area and he was like you know,

43:18 he was like a mini Pete Doherty, you know,

43:20 he was like trying to be in a band and like he was kind of like a

43:23 You from Plano, him from England, you guys are in Chelsea.

43:26 This is

43:27 wild, yeah.

43:27 It was like Animal House and that stuff.

43:29 the how how nice or not nice was the apartment?

43:32 It started out nice Okay.

43:34 it was like what was funny that there was like

43:36 a it was a I forget what they call it, a one two bedroom convertible.

43:40 So, there was an office that you had to put we had to have a wall just

43:42 of sheetrock built and it was like a basically like a closet and I was like hey,

43:47 I'll pay a little bit more a month for the first 6 months take the master.

43:50 in the closet.

43:51 in the closet and I found the place.

43:53 Yeah, you proposed [laughter] the place.

43:54 I actually did propose it.

43:55 I was like no, Flip, you pay more and that of course never happened.

43:59 Yeah, that's never happened.

44:02 [laughter] Team of movers are in there.

44:04 Yeah, yeah, it never never happens.

44:06 Uh and and and it was decidedly disgusting.

44:09 But it was it was um it was so much fun.

44:12 I mean, probably the most

44:14 life on the fun spectrum.

44:16 Yeah.

44:17 It was a lot.

44:18 It was a lot though.

44:19 the dynamic of all the people on the show because I mean,

44:23 for one it's, you know, teen show.

44:26 Sure.

44:26 Hot show.

44:26 All eyes.

44:29 Sure.

44:28 And drama.

44:29 So dramatic.

44:30 But like so in real life you're really good friends with him.

44:32 I can only assume you guys are living together.

44:35 Totally, yeah.

44:35 But then there's other boys on the show and yeah.

44:39 They didn't actually.

44:40 I mean, it was I had a good relationship with kind of all the main like Penn

44:44 and and Blake and Leighton and him were kind

44:46 of the the core cast and we I don't know.

44:49 We all got [clears throat] along.

44:49 We all had a a great time.

44:51 I mean, but me and Ed, I mean, we we would go out.

44:54 We would go out, shoot pool, hit you know what I mean?

44:57 We were like We would go out.

44:58 And they I remember they had [laughter] like on one

45:01 of the buildings a a rooftop which was like kind of redone.

45:05 They had couches up there and a grill and we would just bring a Bose

45:08 speaker and like a bunch of beer and like we would have parties up there.

45:12 Were you banging darts ever?

45:13 Oh, yeah.

45:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:15 He he was a big smoker.

45:17 All my All New York friends smoked.

45:19 They're like actors there and like they smoked

45:20 in somewhere indoors and I never enjoyed them.

45:24 You know what I mean?

45:25 Like I never You're a good boy.

45:26 You know, I I but I would, you know, hit the you know, get the yeah,

45:29 the cigarette thing and act like I think I'm cool like I really loved it.

45:32 You know what I mean?

45:33 Like

45:33 You're on a rooftop banging darts, drinking beer and

45:36 I don't know how to do the show and all that.

45:37 Yeah.

45:37 [laughter] Um how was your ego though at the time?

45:41 It must have been through the roof, right?

45:43 I you know, it's funny.

45:44 It It does It does affect It does affect you.

45:47 You know, how fame always affects you.

45:49 Yeah.

45:50 Can we talk about the moment cuz you were you

45:51 were you were seeing the Black Keys in in Central Park.

45:54 Yeah, you got it.

45:55 Yeah.

45:55 Uh you and Ed.

45:57 Right.

45:57 Right.

45:58 And that was the first time where all

45:59 of a sudden people are starting to come up to you.

46:01 Yeah.

46:02 It's a there's a very first time.

46:03 I'll never forget it.

46:04 Yeah.

46:04 It's a validating feeling to kind of like know

46:07 that what you're been working on is being enjoyed and seen.

46:10 It's the signal of success.

46:11 Like oh, I'm successful.

46:12 to not like that.

46:13 I I think.

46:14 I mean, you can get annoyed in certain situations, but

46:17 To this day, I even people that are fans of The Boys like deep,

46:20 you know, I love I love it.

46:21 It's a fun thing.

46:22 It's just a nice fun thing.

46:25 Yeah.

46:25 It's lovely.

46:25 There's uncomfortable parts, but boy, it's lovely.

46:27 But The Lonely Island blew up.

46:28 I mean, that was like the show.

46:30 And if you guys haven't watched like can you guys like it still holds up?

46:32 I can't watch it.

46:33 Like my memory of how funny the thing was versus when I watch it,

46:36 I'm like oh, no, I've inflated it in my mind.

46:39 the Timberlake one was hilarious.

46:41 Like really like the Oh my gosh, the show was epic.

46:45 phenomenon.

46:44 Yeah, it was.

46:45 Yeah.

46:45 And you guys created a word.

46:47 That word now is in the zeitgeist.

46:49 Yeah.

46:50 Yeah.

46:50 Yeah.

46:50 Yeah.

46:51 So it was it was a it was a after 8 years of auditioning not getting anything,

46:55 it was a rocket ship

46:56 After that too, probably,

46:59 And so you and you already hinted at it,

47:01 but it can make you an[ __] or it can make you

47:04 a bit paranoid and it seems like you you went down the paranoid route.

47:09 A little bit.

47:10 How is it affecting you and and and I'd

47:13 imagine it's more tolerable when you're drunk.

47:16 Right.

47:16 Right.

47:17 Right.

47:17 Right.

47:17 So this becomes now like it's it becomes

47:19 a great companion piece to this new experience.

47:23 It does it does.

47:25 Uh it does.

47:25 And like, you know, we're not working all the time.

47:28 So and and and we had like the keys to the city in a sense.

47:31 I remember being I remember the first iPhone coming out and being

47:34 like paranoid about like iPhone pictures which you couldn't even see anything.

47:38 I couldn't see anything on this stupid like one pixel on there.

47:40 But it you know, I remember like it was

47:44 the young teeny teenage thing where there would sometimes would

47:47 be a lot of energy and that would sometimes

47:49 kind of like startle me a little bit, you know?

47:51 Yeah, you had rabid fans.

47:53 Oh, yeah.

47:53 Yeah, it became a little bit rabid, but not you know,

47:56 nothing like I mean, it was crazy for a minute,

47:58 but it but but it was uh I remember feeling like a like

48:02 a fraud like a bit of a fraud and like an impostor.

48:05 That's why alcohol helps cuz when you're drunk,

48:07 your ego gets to inflate and you're like,

48:08 "Yeah, I am the shit." But when you're sober,

48:10 you're like, "I don't deserve this." Exactly.

48:12 That's exactly what hammered, you're like, "You're damn right I'm[ __] awesome."

48:16 It's such a high, yeah.

48:17 You almost need the booze to actually enjoy the celebrity.

48:20 That's That's so profound.

48:21 This is [laughter]

48:22 so true.

48:23 They're like so true.

48:24 I'm just now realizing that.

48:25 And and and it's you're so much more comfortable in your own skin though

48:28 and and we would go out and um and we had all the, you know,

48:32 other friends in the in the city.

48:34 Yeah, were you making also other actor friends that you were like flattered by?

48:37 Like are other actors around town starting to hang with you?

48:40 bit, yeah, and like, you know,

48:41 like like Knicks players and like it was kind

48:43 of like you kind of making friends with someone like, "Yeah,

48:44 the pitcher of the Mets." And it was like this thing that was

48:47 like pretty pretty cool and uh and Sebastian who who was like,

48:51 I think he came on like episode four or five,

48:53 Stan, and like we were already friends.

48:55 It was like, "Yes, got another friend here." And we were

48:58 all just going around and we had a great time, you know?

49:00 And it was uh it was a lot of fun,

49:02 but it is sort of like a weird drug that you chase and sort of like,

49:05 you know, you you you need to kind of be validated and you realize like,

49:08 "What is wrong with me?" you know?

49:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

49:11 What is this?

49:11 It's all It's a very um um it's a very heightened experience that's hard

49:16 to compute and then it's also quite addictive and uh in the absence of it,

49:21 you feel a big drop.

49:23 Right.

49:24 Right.

49:24 You know, you're just like, yeah,

49:25 if you're out in New York City and[ __] 40% of the girls at the bar like you.

49:31 40?

49:32 99.

49:33 Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to be I don't know yeah.

49:36 [laughter]

49:36 Probably 99.

49:37 I will tell you 99.

49:39 Yeah, man, that's a real That's a special experience.

49:43 Yeah.

49:44 Yeah.

49:44 It It was It It was good for a while and then and then

49:46 it It is a bit It is a bit empty though, you know?

49:48 It's like an empty like you're trying

49:49 to keep chasing that that feeling or that high.

49:52 Well, you feel it when you don't you're not experiencing.

49:54 Again, it's so hard.

49:55 Right.

49:56 It kind of like drives that it drives you

49:57 that question like why like why am I doing this?

49:59 What what am I doing?

50:00 What am I going to do next?

50:01 I need to like kind of maintain this thing, you know,

50:04 that's that's been created and how do I kind

50:06 of like what what's my reason for like, you know,

50:08 doing the next project or picking the next thing and how you know,

50:11 if it's if it's fame and trying you're trying to maintain that it

50:13 can be it's it's just a never so it's a lose-lose, you know.

50:18 Yes.

50:17 ever get weird like on set while you guys were becoming these big stars?

50:21 Were you guys kind of like Do you guys know like I'm a big star?

50:25 Like on set when they would ask you to do

50:27 things or you'd have to be there for so many hours.

50:29 Were you guys like, "Do you know who I am?" All

50:31 of you you were you were all becoming such big stars.

50:34 we were we were pretty lucky.

50:36 I feel like everyone was in their own respects like very well adjusted.

50:41 Like everyone was cool.

50:42 And you're working with everyone at some point

50:45 like your the characters are like and you know,

50:46 a thousand episodes are going to sleep

50:48 together like you have like six [laughter]

50:49 months with someone and then me and Penn are doing me and Ed are working.

50:52 So you kind of I had my own like time with everyone

50:54 to kind of forge a relationship and it was they were good relationships.

50:58 I actually think it's um I know there's like this kind of stereotype of anytime

51:02 you have a bunch of young people on a show they're going to be very competitive,

51:05 but I actually think the the blessing of it

51:07 is when you're the singular star of the show,

51:10 you can really start thinking your[ __] doesn't stink.

51:12 But if you're sharing it,

51:14 you everyone around you's got you're not this big special thing.

51:20 Right.

51:19 You're all getting[ __] heat when you walk out.

51:22 You're all experiencing it.

51:23 So it's like you can't feel so unique in it.

51:26 I think that that helps.

51:27 Yeah, and it kind of all happened at the same time.

51:29 And then inevitably there is a little bit of like you know,

51:32 what is this person getting and not and not this when

51:35 you're young I think I think now that you're I'm older,

51:38 you're just you're just more relaxed with all that stuff.

51:40 It doesn't really matter when you're you're

51:42 kind of become pretentious or you know,

51:44 you kind of become self-important, you know, you want to be important.

51:47 You want to like be the guy and if it's there there is

51:50 a little bit of that anxiety of like what is he doing that I'm not.

51:53 Right.

51:53 I think it when it gets dicey is the summer break.

51:57 Exactly.

51:57 It's like who's got what?

51:58 Oh, they're working with that [clears throat] person?

52:00 __] I better be doing that, too.

52:03 Yeah.

52:02 It's hard not to feel that way.

52:04 You're just sitting on your ass and you're like,

52:06 yo, they're doing like a studio movie?

52:07 Think about like the like Eddie Murphy first year of Saturday Night Live,

52:11 he's on Saturday Night Live,

52:12 they go away for the the summer break and then he stars in 48

52:15 Hours and when they return he's in the biggest movie of the summer.

52:18 And they're all castmates that all started.

52:20 And like that's a lot to deal with for everyone.

52:23 Totally.

52:23 How did you or maybe you did, I didn't follow the drama of it,

52:25 but did you did you avoid getting

52:27 romantically involved with any of these people?

52:31 Yeah.

52:31 Cuz I would have That's where I would have absolutely [laughter] floundered.

52:34 I would have tried to date all of them.

52:36 Some of them dated each other.

52:38 Yeah.

52:38 Some of them dated each other, you know,

52:39 like like there's there's things that happen like you know,

52:42 or like connections that happen that like I mean, you know, yeah,

52:46 it was it was there was never I never dated anyone on the [laughter] show.

52:51 Officially.

52:51 There no, there were there were like, you know,

52:53 there were people I I remember there's a I mean there's

52:55 a lot of like guest stars and people like in the orbit

52:58 of the show that you'd meet through other other friends

53:00 even and and I remember like that was a you know,

53:02 a way to meet a meet people.

53:04 You should.

53:04 Everyone dates people from work.

53:06 Why why would you not do that in show business?

53:08 Yeah, exactly.

53:08 Especially when you're already kissing them.

53:10 I mean you literally already

53:12 You've already crossed the threshold.

53:15 that it's either 60 people watching you and boom mic is like,

53:17 ah, you know, they want you to be shirtless again.

53:19 It's like that's like a whole other thing, you know.

53:22 When you're young, it is a different thing cuz it's it

53:24 is like a college experience and everyone it's it's all different.

53:27 And everyone's kind of single and dating or whatever.

53:30 Everyone's sort of up for, you know, whatever.

53:32 No one's married.

53:33 The stakes are very low, you know.

53:35 So it is it is a funnier,

53:38 you know, more college like school experience for sure.

53:41 Yeah.

53:42 So we were we were good for them.

53:43 You wish you had his life.

53:44 I would have blown it up.

53:46 Like I'm impressed you navigated it.

53:47 I would have I would have[ __] up.

53:49 I would have[ __] up.

53:50 I would have I would have been partying too hard.

53:51 I was close to[ __] up.

53:52 Okay.

53:53 Okay.

53:53 But I missed the part that you were an Abercrombie& Fitch model.

53:56 Oh, yeah.

53:57 Oh, god.

53:58 Oh my god, were you in the documentary?

54:00 Oh, no, [laughter] I wasn't.

54:01 Thank god.

54:02 I did watch that documentary though.

54:05 Yeah.

54:05 What if I said, you know what would have been great is I said,

54:06 did you um did you get romantically involved with any of the cast members?

54:10 You go just Kristen Bell.

54:14 [screaming]

54:13 Kristen had the best job.

54:14 She was She was in this probably this room

54:16 with a mic like doing a weekend and that was amazing.

54:19 We had started dating just as she was getting that offer to do that.

54:23 Really?

54:23 Yeah.

54:23 Yeah.

54:24 And she's like, this is pretty great.

54:25 I'm getting like an episodic fee and I think

54:27 it's going to be about 15 minutes a week.

54:30 Yeah, and she got the re- the the re-did it, right?

54:32 She got paid for that one, too.

54:33 Suck off of that.

54:34 Yeah.

54:35 And it showed her um voiceover skills which took her someplace this week or day.

54:40 Right.

54:40 No, completely.

54:41 My last question on that period is um how blessed or and/or resentful do you

54:50 feel that you guys got to do that just before social media was a thing?

54:55 That's a good question.

54:56 I feel I feel really blessed actually.

54:58 I mean it would in some weird way Gossip Girl was ahead of its time cuz

55:02 it was about like you know this blogger

55:04 and like it would have like it would kind

55:05 of was you know you know uh looking

55:08 at that social media thing in a different way but but it was I'm so I'm just

55:12 so thankful that wasn't around when we were there.

55:15 I mean how many athletes and actors just get

55:17 like you know you tweet something when you're 18, 20.

55:20 You do something and it's videos last forever.

55:23 I I mean yeah, I probably would have lost everything if

55:26 I if there were like the video thing was was real.

55:29 Uh but the other flip side of that is I I I wish I'd started

55:32 an Instagram account when like I mean you

55:34 know Ashton Kutcher think they at the very beginning.

55:36 Like I would have a million, you know.

55:37 So, that's what I was going to say.

55:38 The The The The The con of it not being there is there are so many people

55:42 that have been on these shows that they are

55:44 like they're very zeitgeisty and all young people like them,

55:46 but they're not huge ratings hit.

55:48 People aren't renegotiating making a ton of money.

55:51 Right.

55:52 But, they're making a killing on their social media.

55:55 Mhm.

55:54 Which is a nice little thing that you you probably could have also made

55:58 a ton of money outside of the show had that been around at that time.

56:04 Yeah, and it's I I I kind of missed a generation.

56:06 Like, I'm not all about, you know,

56:07 putting putting myself out there all the time.

56:09 It's kind of like, you know, Well, you've had some success in it.

56:11 Well, you and Miles Teller dancing and stuff.

56:15 [laughter]

56:15 Those have gone well.

56:15 That was against my will.

56:17 That was Yeah, 2020.

56:19 There's not just one.

56:20 There's There's a golf one you're probably referencing,

56:23 but you guys are shirtless and masks.

56:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

56:25 Yeah, that was the pandemic.

56:27 look great, by the way.

56:30 Yeah.

56:31 [laughter] That was the pandemic.

56:32 That was when we all went a little crazy, didn't we?

56:34 Yeah.

56:34 Yeah.

56:35 Okay, so when the show ended,

56:39 um I had this very mixed feeling about Parenthood ending,

56:41 which is I also had done 6 years on that show,

56:43 like you you did 6 years, right, on Gossip Girl?

56:46 And I had these two feelings,

56:48 which is like one was I could have done that show for the rest of my life.

56:50 I loved everyone so much.

56:52 It was such a lovely work environment.

56:54 I had such freedom.

56:55 Um And also, if I do anything for 6 years,

56:58 I'm kind of like, okay, uh I want a new experience.

57:01 So, Right.

57:02 you feeling like when it ended?

57:04 With the Gossip Girl thing ending, I I got super depressed,

57:08 and it was way out of left field,

57:09 cuz I I felt like I had to move back to Los Angeles.

57:13 You probably did need to for your health.

57:15 Yeah, I know.

57:15 Totally.

57:16 Completely.

57:16 But, I I kind of remember thinking, why didn't I just, you know,

57:19 buy like invest and buy a place and stay in New York?

57:22 And glad and I I'm glad I didn't, but but I remember getting plopped back in LA,

57:26 and, you know, it's like anything else.

57:28 Like, that that those people become your identity in a way.

57:31 They're you're you're a family,

57:32 and I and that's I realized that became really important to me.

57:36 It's the hair and makeup girls you talk to every day.

57:37 It's the transport guy that picks you up.

57:39 It's just that rhythm and that you are somebody

57:42 and you mean something in that you know sphere.

57:45 And the And the schedule's tethering you.

57:48 Completely.

57:47 it's what's allowing you to go be a[ __] maniac

57:52 it.

57:51 for a week you know because you click

57:53 back into the the routine and it's stabilizing.

57:57 Yes.

57:57 Yes.

57:57 And I I got spit back out here and I remember being like depressed for 6 months.

58:01 Not I mean you know and listen,

58:03 not like clinically like I could get out I I was getting out of bed

58:05 but I I I was definitely like just I I was not in a good way.

58:09 Yeah.

58:09 Yeah.

58:09 I was not in a good way.

58:11 And I would imagine too like at least in my experience

58:13 it's like you have all these waves of thought.

58:16 It's like you first get off the show and you're like, "Okay,

58:20 I probably have a lot of options and so I got to choose correctly."

58:24 And then a couple months goes by and all of a sudden you're like,

58:26 "Do I have this many options?" You start recalculating what you're going to do.

58:29 It's it it can be madness trying to figure out what you're supposed

58:33 to follow up something like a Parenthood or a or a Gossip Girl with.

58:37 Yeah, and I you know people think you know you're the star of this show

58:41 uh but but in the reality of it in the industry it's it's a double-edged sword,

58:46 you know, you're you're like the you know you're like

58:47 the pretty boy who was like on a CW show, right?

58:51 That honestly was uh you know what I'm saying?

58:53 You're in the doghouse, but there is a little bit of that.

58:56 You know, that was the reality I was facing coming back because I think you

58:58 have all these these these options

59:00 and these offers and whatever, but it was like

59:03 You have an opportunity to do the same thing probably.

59:04 An opportunity to do the same thing.

59:05 People don't really have an imagination in casting.

59:07 You kind of got to prove yourself which is all which is well and good.

59:11 Yeah.

59:10 But I remember it being uh limited.

59:13 Yeah, and not realizing like oh[ __] I'm not getting you know the looks

59:17 I'm wanting and and even I'm getting close to stuff and putting in good work.

59:21 It's like oh, it's it's not it's not a good fit.

59:24 So, it was a bit of like wanting to really really switch it up.

59:27 And you I don't know about you,

59:28 but you also start losing faith in your confidence.

59:30 Like you're like, I got to readjust what I

59:32 think I'm going to be able to get into.

59:35 It's It's It was a It was a real lesson for the first time of like,

59:37 okay, I was stripped kind of of all the confidence.

59:40 And how do you And again, how you go into that room and act confident

59:43 to get that job if you're not if you're feeling completely desperate for it.

59:47 And you air of desperation.

59:49 And it's those moments of of being in this business

59:51 and industry that that that people don't see,

59:53 but you got to you got to navigate.

59:54 That was my first time really navigating.

59:56 And you're also pretty darn young still.

59:57 Like how old were you when the show ended?

59:59 28?

1:00:00 27 to 8, yeah.

1:00:01 Yeah, 27 8, yeah.

1:00:02 That's the age I was when I got on Punk'd.

1:00:07 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert

1:00:12 [music]

1:00:11 if you dare.

1:00:19 Let me ask you this.

1:00:20 Did you have a chip on your shoulder about the show?

1:00:21 Because I I don't anymore.

1:00:23 I have nothing but gratitude.

1:00:24 But I had a few years where I couldn't

1:00:26 stand when people would bring up Punk'd to me.

1:00:29 Really?

1:00:29 Yes, because it was like it was a reality show and they would ask me like,

1:00:33 what's it like to act when I was promoting Without a Paddle?

1:00:36 And I was like,

1:00:37 Like I've been acting.

1:00:38 I I That's the most acting like I convinced a real person.

1:00:43 And I was just so defensive about it being a reality show.

1:00:46 And then are you friends with Ashton?

1:00:47 I'm like, no, he didn't give me I didn't know it.

1:00:50 You know, like I had I just had all these chips on my shoulder about it.

1:00:53 I did too.

1:00:53 I did too, for sure.

1:00:55 I I would I would feel uh defensive, I guess, is the only word.

1:00:58 I would just feel like defensive.

1:00:59 Like don't ask me about that.

1:01:00 You know what I mean?

1:01:01 I'm moving on to other things.

1:01:02 But but I was always grateful of the show.

1:01:04 I was never It was never the people

1:01:06 Well, that's what I'm sad about is that I had that association with it.

1:01:09 Even the first time I I interviewed Ashton, I was kind of admitting to that.

1:01:13 And he's like, yeah, I've I very much felt that.

1:01:16 And it kind of hurt his feelings.

1:01:18 Okay, got it.

1:01:18 That I wanted to be so distant

1:01:19 from this great thing he and I did together really.

1:01:22 Yeah, yeah.

1:01:22 Um And and now, of course, I can go like oh my god,

1:01:27 no one gets to be on a cultural phenomenon.

1:01:30 Like and I'm I can't believe I never had apex gratitude for it.

1:01:36 Like of course I was at the gratitude that it

1:01:37 gave me all the opportunities I ended up getting.

1:01:41 Right.

1:01:40 But also just like, dude,

1:01:42 if you're on a something like that one time in your life,

1:01:44 like that's that's going to the Super Bowl.

1:01:46 Like it's just doesn't happen.

1:01:47 it doesn't happen.

1:01:48 It's hard to get to that that rarefied air.

1:01:50 It really is.

1:01:51 Yeah, yeah.

1:01:52 you're so scared because you've had that.

1:01:55 Yeah.

1:01:55 It's like, oh my god,

1:01:56 how on earth do I get on another thing of that kind of cultural momentum, yeah.

1:02:01 Right, which is which is tough.

1:02:03 And now that it's had this weird life, you know,

1:02:05 through streaming it's had like these nine lives in the same age,

1:02:08 you know, fan comes up and it's I love it, you know, I love it now,

1:02:11 but there was a time when I was really

1:02:12 like um it just felt like this black cloud,

1:02:15 you know, I couldn't get away from and it was hard to like break out of that.

1:02:19 Yeah, like now I can sit down and I can I can do an entire By the way,

1:02:21 I used to have it with Kristen, too.

1:02:22 It's like every interview I'd get in they would ask me about Kristen.

1:02:25 Right.

1:02:25 Right.

1:02:26 I'm like, oh they I'm only here cuz they want to hear about Kristen.

1:02:29 Right.

1:02:28 And then I was smart enough to realize like,

1:02:29 oh when I see Kristen, all they do is ask about her me.

1:02:32 Like they just don't know what the[ __] ask you about.

1:02:34 what to ask about, yeah.

1:02:35 Right, isn't that the worst thing going?

1:02:36 There's no evaluation of anything going on.

1:02:40 Exactly.

1:02:39 Yeah, so it just um but now yeah,

1:02:42 I can sit and do a two-hour podcast on Portland.

1:02:44 I'd be delighted for someone to go through every episode.

1:02:46 You know, like I I would love to talk about it.

1:02:48 a rewatch.

1:02:50 You should.

1:02:53 [laughter] But I couldn't uh watch it.

1:02:54 But that is the most acting though.

1:02:55 That really is though.

1:02:57 That's the most acting.

1:02:58 Like that's the real[ __] man.

1:02:59 The commitment.

1:03:00 You can't You can't say cut.

1:03:02 Uh yeah, there's no cut.

1:03:03 Um you either[ __] up the entire three-day thing they've been setting up.

1:03:08 Yeah, yeah.

1:03:09 And it's like a high.

1:03:10 And it's always like the celebrity like who's like,

1:03:12 you know, they they can sniff that out quickly, you know.

1:03:14 Yeah, if I It's like stakes.

1:03:16 If I tip it and go too big, and yet I want to go big.

1:03:19 That's my chance to be funny.

1:03:21 I'm wearing a[ __] wig and[ __] with Nick Nick Nick Lachey.

1:03:26 Yeah.

1:03:26 I'm going as hard as I can without [laughter] it.

1:03:28 Like I'm going to cut off shirt and[ __] you know.

1:03:30 Oh, what a great episode.

1:03:31 It's due for a rewatch.

1:03:33 I want to see it all night.

1:03:34 It's brilliant.

1:03:35 It's so It's so good.

1:03:36 I've watched it recently like even after knowing him and I'm like, it's so good.

1:03:40 Like Jerry dude is great and all, but that is a punk, you know.

1:03:43 That was like the thing.

1:03:45 And it was the best.

1:03:46 It was really good.

1:03:48 Yeah.

1:03:47 Walk me through this this chapter, right?

1:03:50 This is a chapter between I would say Gossip Girl and The Boys.

1:03:54 Right.

1:03:54 What's that chapter?

1:03:55 How do you keep your spirits high?

1:03:57 Is it Do you find joy?

1:03:58 Do you figure out how to recalibrate?

1:04:00 Like what is that journey there like?

1:04:02 Yeah, that was probably the toughest journey, like the lowest kind of point.

1:04:08 Let me think.

1:04:09 I I I basically sort of snapped out of it

1:04:11 a little bit a little bit and it just felt so

1:04:15 daunting the task of like auditioning and trying to get that next thing.

1:04:19 Yes.

1:04:18 And I will I ever get something as culturally relevant like a big again?

1:04:21 Like am I going to, you know?

1:04:24 Yeah.

1:04:25 And I remember going and did I did a pilot.

1:04:27 It got picked up.

1:04:28 It was Oil and

1:04:31 Yeah, exactly.

1:04:31 Yeah, they changed the name of it.

1:04:32 It was kind of like it was The idea was it was like

1:04:35 the best The best version of it would have been like Yellowstone basically.

1:04:38 And that's what I thought in my head.

1:04:39 Oh, they're going to want this thing.

1:04:41 Yeah.

1:04:41 The The guys who created and wrote it were amazing.

1:04:44 They all got fired.

1:04:46 What?

1:04:45 But ABC wanted they like kind of like put on all

1:04:47 these new people and and like we moved to Park City,

1:04:50 which was amazing to live up there.

1:04:52 Early on it was like,

1:04:53 oh[ __] Like I really hope I'm not It was the first time I was like scared.

1:04:58 Yeah.

1:04:58 Am I going to be stuck on this?

1:04:59 You know, and I And I mean it was a great experience,

1:05:03 but but like I was I was a little nervous about it.

1:05:06 No, again, it was fine to be stranded in New York City as a young person.

1:05:12 Yeah.

1:05:12 But you probably never envision moving to Park City, Utah when you left Dallas.

1:05:16 I mean, that's a that's a big part of the job

1:05:18 that I think is fine to be like, well, I don't know.

1:05:23 Yeah.

1:05:22 I lived in Canada for 7 8 years.

1:05:25 Right.

1:05:25 Right.

1:05:25 Right.

1:05:26 It's a nomadic

1:05:27 Live your life.

1:05:28 Yeah.

1:05:28 Yeah.

1:05:28 And it was It's scary.

1:05:29 I bought a truck, drove out there.

1:05:31 It was great for a while, but it just it's a sleepy town.

1:05:33 It's not New York, you know?

1:05:34 And I like I Thank god I got a girlfriend.

1:05:37 That was kind of a nice like thing.

1:05:39 I you know, They didn't go that were working out.

1:05:41 Your longest relationship, 3 years.

1:05:42 Yeah, exactly.

1:05:43 Yeah, congratulations.

1:05:44 Thank you.

1:05:46 [laughter]

1:05:46 Thank you.

1:05:49 [gasps] That's interesting cuz you you if you're meeting you

1:05:51 fall in love and you're both out of town.

1:05:52 Like hey, of course you're going to fall in love.

1:05:54 You're both lonely and out of town.

1:05:55 Yeah.

1:05:56 Yeah.

1:05:56 Yeah.

1:05:56 Right?

1:05:57 And then you're like you're also playing house.

1:06:00 Yeah.

1:06:01 Totally.

1:06:01 Right?

1:06:01 Totally.

1:06:01 That's a good way to put it.

1:06:02 Yeah.

1:06:02 Yeah.

1:06:03 Yeah.

1:06:03 And then like and then and then you got

1:06:05 to return to real life back in for I don't know.

1:06:07 I think that would be weird.

1:06:09 Yeah.

1:06:09 I've never done that full experience, but I could see it being tricky.

1:06:13 we did.

1:06:13 We navigated it.

1:06:14 It ended.

1:06:15 It was actually like in totality it was like, oh, that that was actually great.

1:06:19 I did 13 episodes of this thing.

1:06:21 We kind of had like summer through winter in Park City.

1:06:23 It was great.

1:06:24 You know, it was like the perfect thing.

1:06:26 And then you guys stayed together for a long time.

1:06:28 Yeah.

1:06:28 Yeah, we did.

1:06:29 And we worked that out.

1:06:30 And um that was that's when I realized I am better in a relationship.

1:06:36 I'm just [laughter] you know what I mean?

1:06:37 Like single me is not like the best version, you know?

1:06:41 But in a in a way.

1:06:43 Well, there's a lot of data to support that.

1:06:44 Like married guys live like 11 years longer.

1:06:46 I mean, it's like yeah, we're not great on our own.

1:06:49 Yeah, you guys like don't go to the doctor.

1:06:51 Right.

1:06:51 Right.

1:06:51 No, yeah.

1:06:51 Yeah.

1:06:52 I realized I like need some help.

1:06:53 So, uh no, but and that was all great.

1:06:56 And uh you know, we're still friends.

1:06:58 What do you do wrong in relationships?

1:07:00 What do I do wrong?

1:07:01 Um I I just try too hard.

1:07:04 I just I'm just love love too hard.

1:07:09 [laughter]

1:07:09 I'll go first.

1:07:10 Yeah, what do you what do you think?

1:07:11 Yeah, I had this relationship with the girl I just mentioned brief for 9 years.

1:07:16 Right.

1:07:14 And um I left that one and uh there's no way it could have been her fault.

1:07:20 I mean, she was a great human being.

1:07:22 I had to be responsible for a lot of it.

1:07:25 Right, right.

1:07:25 And I had to I I think I had the wherewithal.

1:07:28 I was like 36 at the time or something and I was like okay,

1:07:31 we're going to enter a new relationship,

1:07:33 we got to figure out what we were doing wrong.

1:07:35 Like you got Clearly I need to break some habits.

1:07:37 But it was like I was I'm probably a bit

1:07:42 um I want them to think like me too much.

1:07:47 Mhm.

1:07:46 Um I I um I was terrible about money.

1:07:48 I was so bad at sharing money.

1:07:50 I was like, "Oh, this is my money, you know,

1:07:51 I did a lot of things that um I I knew I

1:07:55 got to break this the next time I'm in one, which was Kristen.

1:08:00 But it was like I met Kristen, [snorts] she was a Christian,

1:08:04 Mhm.

1:08:05 vegetarian, who lived with eight people and had 16 dogs.

1:08:09 And these are all things I would have normally been like,

1:08:11 "I love her, but there's no way I can hang with all this other stuff."

1:08:15 Right.

1:08:14 I'm laughing because she does all of those things now.

1:08:19 [laughter] But I didn't I didn't ever challenge any of it.

1:08:22 Yeah.

1:08:21 They're not religious.

1:08:22 Well, that's the funny thing about life.

1:08:24 You didn't control it.

1:08:26 But you want to though.

1:08:27 So you want to like that's the thing we get past the the honeymoon phase and you

1:08:30 you start to try and change the other

1:08:32 or control the other person in just small ways even,

1:08:34 you know, and that's we're all guilty.

1:08:36 I'm I'm guilty of that.

1:08:37 Yeah, and it has the veil of being gross and controlling, which certainly it is,

1:08:40 but really it's about safety cuz you're like, "I don't know, man.

1:08:43 If she feels this way and I feel this way,

1:08:45 I'm scared that we can both hold

1:08:47 these conflicting opinions and still be a unit." Right.

1:08:50 Like underneath of it's some weird fear like,

1:08:52 "Don't we need to be more aligned in order for it

1:08:55 to work?" Like I don't think it's entirely disgusting in premise.

1:09:00 Right.

1:09:00 Of why you're acting that way.

1:09:01 It's just like, "Well, how are we going to I remember we had

1:09:03 a fight one time about like if we had kids,

1:09:07 what were we going to were we going to raise them with religion?"

1:09:11 Right.

1:09:11 And and and and after that fight I was like,

1:09:15 "Just not bringing that up." I think I had a wise person in AA tell me,

1:09:20 Uh-huh.

1:09:19 "I'm sorry, is she pregnant?" Right.

1:09:22 And I'm like, "No." He's like, "So,

1:09:23 why are you fighting today about something

1:09:25 that you don't even know is going to happen?" Things could change.

1:09:27 You know.

1:09:28 how everyone's going to feel Yes, like yeah.

1:09:29 You're living so far in the future.

1:09:31 You guys are having a fight about something

1:09:32 in the future that is so out of touch.

1:09:35 Right.

1:09:35 Right.

1:09:35 was like, "You're right." And then I never brought it up again, right?

1:09:38 You get worried about those things before they happen.

1:09:40 You want to like get get to the get to the point.

1:09:42 I mean, one of my biggest things is probably I'm like a bottler,

1:09:46 you know, and I have I have a tough time.

1:09:48 So I'll be I'll do a little passive

1:09:50 passive aggressiveness is is a big problem for me,

1:09:52 you know what I mean?

1:09:53 And it's like in like I'll hold

1:09:55 on to things and I won't communicate them properly.

1:09:58 You got a little vault you keep um

1:10:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:10:00 And you can pull out when necessary.

1:10:02 run to the hard conversation.

1:10:04 It's always like it'll be it turn into a fight and it's about something else.

1:10:06 I'll realize, "Oh[ __] it's actually about all this other stuff.

1:10:09 I'm so sorry.

1:10:09 This is like

1:10:10 And you're holding on to 6 months of[ __] Yeah.

1:10:13 And so that all comes out in the fight, right?

1:10:15 Yeah, it's it's about like a cup left on the table.

1:10:17 You know what I mean?

1:10:18 Something so stupid and then you're like, "Oh my god, this is I'm so sorry.

1:10:21 This is not You know,

1:10:22 but but that's that's part that's one thing for me, you know."

1:10:25 So, that's part of the people-pleaser thing, right?

1:10:27 Like if you are to if you what

1:10:30 will you lose her affection by having these issues

1:10:34 Right.

1:10:35 relationship?

1:10:35 of fear of like want to be feel These things are safe,

1:10:37 not don't rock the boat, don't like, you know, do anything that could jeopardize

1:10:40 are just kind of now piling up.

1:10:42 homeostasis Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:10:43 And they're all like little things until they're not, right?

1:10:45 Was there not a lot of fighting in your house growing up?

1:10:48 Or was there fighting?

1:10:49 Cuz I think it go either way.

1:10:50 It it was neither really.

1:10:52 It was kind of there was some some you know, of both really.

1:10:55 I mean, my parents were really young.

1:10:56 I'm like I can't believe they even like got through that time in med school.

1:10:59 Like, I I couldn't couldn't even like I can barely I have a dog now.

1:11:02 I'm 40.

1:11:03 You know what I mean?

1:11:03 It's like, how would I dealt with like, you know, 20 with two kids?

1:11:05 But, they were amazing.

1:11:07 Yeah, and they figured it out.

1:11:08 Yeah, med school workload and two little kids.

1:11:11 __] that.

1:11:11 And your mom's living somewhere she didn't want to live.

1:11:14 Right.

1:11:14 Right.

1:11:14 Yeah.

1:11:14 Yeah.

1:11:15 Yeah.

1:11:15 Minnesota.

1:11:16 Yeah, she did not like putting those chains on that van.

1:11:18 She's in Park City.

1:11:19 Yeah.

1:11:21 [laughter] So, it's not like you grew up around it.

1:11:22 So, you like are emulating it or trying to avoid it or something.

1:11:26 It's just

1:11:26 Right.

1:11:27 I guess it's it's like the it's like in relationships,

1:11:30 you need to run to the hard conversations, right?

1:11:33 It's and and no one wants to do it.

1:11:34 But, that that's the You got to have

1:11:36 the hard conversation sooner rather than later,

1:11:38 and that's that's just what you have to you need to do.

1:11:42 And is your move to shut down?

1:11:44 Yeah.

1:11:45 Yeah.

1:11:45 Get quiet and distant.

1:11:46 And wait for her to figure out why you're hurting.

1:11:48 Exactly.

1:11:48 And I'm like I'm like, you just resort to being like like

1:11:51 a the child you were with your parents, basically.

1:11:54 Yeah.

1:11:54 Right.

1:11:54 It's really what it is.

1:11:55 Yeah.

1:11:56 Oh my god.

1:11:56 I'm like, doing what I did to my mom and you know,

1:11:59 it's like the same it's all that stuff.

1:12:00 And you always got to be like aware of it.

1:12:03 Okay.

1:12:03 So, good.

1:12:03 So, the relationship I'm presuming that was an identity outside of acting.

1:12:09 Right.

1:12:09 forward momentum as a human building a life.

1:12:12 I I imagine those 3 years bought you a little um

1:12:15 reprieve from just you sitting there contemplating your career by yourself.

1:12:21 Completely.

1:12:21 It was It was She was an actress.

1:12:22 It was It was very much like a great support system.

1:12:26 It was also in a weird way,

1:12:28 and this is not This isn't the only reason I was getting in a relationship,

1:12:31 but it was to prove to myself I

1:12:33 was capable of like being in a successful relationship.

1:12:36 So, I was motivated to be a good partner and boyfriend, you know?

1:12:40 And I would definitely, you know, failed at that in many ways.

1:12:44 But, like that was a drive like, you know,

1:12:46 I need to like, you know, grow up a little bit.

1:12:48 And this was And it was It did It did facilitate that.

1:12:51 I learned I learned a lot.

1:12:52 You always do, right?

1:12:53 Was it hard for you to let go of the fun nights out and lots of options?

1:12:58 Yeah, you know, yes and no.

1:13:00 Like I I definitely still, you know, stayed at the party a little too late.

1:13:04 Like I was still like having fun with the guys

1:13:06 and like going out and stuff and I you know,

1:13:08 probably could have shut that down a lot sooner.

1:13:11 I still like that fun, but I I'm well I'm now I'm like,

1:13:14 oh, I'm really I love home.

1:13:16 I love cooking.

1:13:17 I love being, you know, in a relationship with miles.

1:13:22 [laughter]

1:13:22 With a loaf of white bread.

1:13:23 Yeah, that was embarrassing.

1:13:25 But that stuff is so it just gets tiring after a while, you know.

1:13:30 You just you just get old and It gets less fun.

1:13:32 It get Yeah, it gets less fun and you really start it affects you a lot more.

1:13:36 Yeah, your body's kicking Your body will tell you.

1:13:40 Yeah.

1:13:39 And and the illusion again, I'm a novelty seeker.

1:13:42 So it's like Right.

1:13:44 the it has the appearance of a novel night,

1:13:47 but but if you really take inventory,

1:13:49 you're like, oh, I did the same thing over and over and over again.

1:13:53 Yeah.

1:13:52 I do the same thing.

1:13:53 Even if I hook up with a new person,

1:13:55 it's the same thing every, you know, it's it's all the same.

1:13:58 There's really no surprises.

1:14:00 Exactly.

1:14:00 And you feel like it's it's going to be this thing and it's never what it is,

1:14:03 you know, but but for me it was a bit the the revelry of it,

1:14:07 you know, the being with friends and the drinking and the it

1:14:10 was always kind of like this high of of revelry, you know.

1:14:13 So it was that was the hard part to the socializing aspect

1:14:17 and the like thing of it was was was was tough for me, yeah.

1:14:21 I just had a thought.

1:14:23 Yeah.

1:14:23 I loved the intimacy you could have with other men while drunk.

1:14:28 Right.

1:14:27 craved that and and and I loved I show up with a six-pack

1:14:31 and then now we're I love I can say I love you are so down.

1:14:35 Right, right, right.

1:14:36 I craved that intimacy with men and drinking gave that to me.

1:14:41 And I even realize you don't even realize

1:14:43 you know that's what you're looking for, you know, what you need in your life.

1:14:46 And and and and you'll find a lot of them, you know,

1:14:48 friends that that it's you're just friends within that bubble

1:14:50 of partying or whatever it is or drinking, right?

1:14:52 And then that disappears and it's it's okay, you know, it's tougher.

1:14:56 Jack London, the the writer, he wrote a book called John Barleycorn.

1:14:59 I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

1:15:00 not, no.

1:15:01 But it's this very, very honest book about

1:15:04 his relationship with drinking towards the end of his life.

1:15:06 And he was a hardcore alcoholic by the end where he had to wake up

1:15:10 in the middle of the night and drink in the middle of the night to stay asleep.

1:15:12 And it was I think reading that book that occurred to me,

1:15:14 oh, that's what I was kind of craving that I loved.

1:15:16 He just talks about the intimacy at a at a bar with with males,

1:15:23 uh, you know, and and how without that he could have never had that.

1:15:28 Right.

1:15:28 Uh, he can't he couldn't get there without that connection.

1:15:30 real conversation with that and Just the intimacy, the like, um,

1:15:34 The depth of a relationship, yeah.

1:15:37 emotional, being your fears to another man and all

1:15:39 these things you just you dare not do Right.

1:15:43 sober with another dude.

1:15:44 hard to get there if you It feels like it's hard to get there if you're sober,

1:15:47 you know, what I mean do, right?

1:15:49 [clears throat] Yeah, yeah.

1:15:50 AA is a hack for that.

1:15:51 It's like you're kind of forced to be with these other men doing that.

1:15:54 right?

1:15:54 It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:15:55 And we we all agree, let's sit down for an hour and like be real as[ __]

1:15:59 Yeah.

1:15:59 Talk about what we're afraid of.

1:16:01 Right.

1:16:00 __] up in our relationship.

1:16:03 Yeah.

1:16:02 What we regret about our parenting.

1:16:04 And it's like, how are you doing that unless

1:16:05 you're hammered at a bar at 2:00 a.m.?

1:16:07 That's what I mean, when I left New York all

1:16:09 my all those guy friends were still in New York

1:16:11 and I I I didn't realize I was doing

1:16:13 a lot of that to have just to have those connections.

1:16:16 I was And when all that kind of goes

1:16:17 away and you like realize you're home by yourself,

1:16:19 I really don't have that many friends,

1:16:21 you know, they're they're not real friends, you know.

1:16:23 You want to you gravitate to those guys who are going out

1:16:26 in the revelry of that and and connecting with those guys, yeah.

1:16:29 So, where were you at, um, optimistically, just before The Boys happens?

1:16:35 My optim- optimism level was what How are you assessing what the future

1:16:39 of your life is professionally just before The Boys?

1:16:42 It was dark for me.

1:16:43 I mean it in my mind.

1:16:44 I know it wasn't really, you know, I know I was probably in a place

1:16:47 that a lot of people would love love to have been.

1:16:49 Sure.

1:16:50 You were on Taylor's couch.

1:16:53 [laughter] But there is that you know,

1:16:55 what have you done for me lately type thing and you see all these you know,

1:16:57 and what is keeping up with the Joneses like rash is what

1:17:00 are these guys doing that I'm not you know, is all that.

1:17:02 everyone you know on billboards all day long as you drive through the city.

1:17:05 It's probably LA, you know, and and there's that anxiety there that I

1:17:09 don't get even if I'm working in Toronto.

1:17:11 There's like you kind of relax when you're out of LA.

1:17:13 You have no clue what's going on.

1:17:14 Sebastian's getting like nominated for Oscars.

1:17:16 [laughter] What the[ __] You could be happy for them and still be like, uh-oh.

1:17:22 What am I doing?

1:17:23 No, no, completely and that's and I'm

1:17:25 in a different place now like I'm almost 41, but like I I'm much more relaxed.

1:17:29 But the 30 early 30s it was like doom it was just a doom loop,

1:17:33 you know, like what am I going to do with my life?

1:17:36 Like it felt like there was nothing that was ever going to happen again.

1:17:39 Were you 34 probably, right?

1:17:41 Seven years ago?

1:17:42 32 probably when when Yeah,

1:17:44 and I think I turned 33 the year that the the boys happened.

1:17:47 But I remember that was like I remember reading

1:17:49 it and not getting that many good you know,

1:17:52 again like you know, people's casting imaginations limited.

1:17:55 I was getting all these things I it was more of the same.

1:17:58 I didn't want to do and I read the script of The Boys.

1:18:01 I was like, what the[ __] is this?

1:18:03 This is amazing.

1:18:04 It's amazing.

1:18:05 But also it's I would imagine too there's a little

1:18:07 bit of a gift in that it's such an enormous swing.

1:18:10 I can only imagine reading that first script.

1:18:14 Yeah.

1:18:14 Cuz that shows so much about execution.

1:18:16 That show that script the pilot could go so wrong.

1:18:20 Yeah.

1:18:20 That's that was a great

1:18:20 The odds of it being executed in the way it was is like a 1% chance.

1:18:25 Yeah.

1:18:26 So I also imagine getting that script and going well,

1:18:28 this is really cool and also if I don't get it, this is probably going to fail.

1:18:32 Like there I could be liberated by what a big swing

1:18:35 it is and not get overly worked up about auditioning for it.

1:18:39 Right.

1:18:39 No, I I I honestly I'm like, how are they going to do this?

1:18:42 Like how are they going to make this thing?

1:18:43 A guy's getting miniature and going

1:18:44 in a guy's penis and exploding the whole body.

1:18:46 You're like, what how the[ __] is that?

1:18:48 like a shot at the moon.

1:18:49 Like it felt like a like a moon shot that was like, is this too good to be true?

1:18:52 Am I like tripping?

1:18:53 Like this is insane.

1:18:54 Like I you know, and and are they letting us do this?

1:18:56 And and Yeah.

1:18:58 You know, it goes so hard.

1:18:59 Yeah.

1:18:59 Yeah.

1:19:00 But I did feel I was like, I this is hilarious.

1:19:02 I was like, I know this guy, this like narcissistic,

1:19:05 unself-aware[ __] who's in a therapist's couch talking

1:19:08 about his only friends is the local lobster.

1:19:11 Like that was the audition scene.

1:19:12 It was like a monologue of this thing and it was like,

1:19:15 I just felt connected to it and like everyone is reading for it and yeah,

1:19:19 it was a great great audition process.

1:19:21 Okay, so I'm going to be dead honest with you.

1:19:23 Your fear is a little bit grounded, right?

1:19:26 Which is like, I only know of you as an actor on Gossip Girl at that time.

1:19:31 Right.

1:19:31 And I never watched Gossip Girl.

1:19:32 So I just fill in the blanks of what Gossip Girl is.

1:19:36 Yeah.

1:19:36 And so I had this wonderful shocking moment

1:19:40 when I'm watching The Boys and you know,

1:19:43 maybe Kristen said it out loud first where

1:19:46 she's like,[ __] Chase is so good in this.

1:19:49 And I'm like, yeah, this dude is[ __] awesome.

1:19:52 It was like a huge revelation to me.

1:19:55 I was like, oh this dude is got no vanity.

1:19:58 You're so the butt of every joke.

1:20:01 Right.

1:20:01 Right.

1:20:02 are just[ __] driving straight into it

1:20:05 and you're not protecting yourself at all.

1:20:07 That's Thank [laughter] you.

1:20:08 It's the way you got to play that character.

1:20:10 It's the only way to do it.

1:20:11 It's the only way to do it.

1:20:11 But a lot of actors would get vain and they would just wink enough to go,

1:20:15 I want you to know I'm in on on it.

1:20:17 Yeah.

1:20:18 Yeah.

1:20:18 Yeah.

1:20:18 Yeah.

1:20:19 tempting to go, I want the audience to know I'm a little in on it.

1:20:22 I've always appreciated in the women you know,

1:20:25 I think of like Margot Robbie even on SNL

1:20:27 like that she's not afraid to like like to go

1:20:29 there and to and to like be in crazy or ugly for comedy and like do the thing.

1:20:33 Like I that I feel like just the the the way

1:20:36 to go about it is have have no ego about it.

1:20:38 I think even Anthony who plays Homelander on the show like came

1:20:41 into it and thought that I had that same thought about me.

1:20:44 Like this[ __] is going to try and like what you know,

1:20:46 be the out like alpha at me out and we had

1:20:49 a great and it's just the not the right way to play it.

1:20:51 So we had a good time on that show.

1:20:53 Yeah.

1:20:53 Yeah, you're so god damn good on that.

1:20:55 It's very impressive.

1:20:57 Yeah, you're[ __] great.

1:20:58 And then your body look oh my god.

1:21:02 [laughter] OH MY GOD, YOUR BODY.

1:21:04 OH MAN.

1:21:05 DO WE amp Do we ratchet it up the training for that?

1:21:08 I did.

1:21:08 Yeah.

1:21:09 the approach?

1:21:11 No pasta, no more[ __] up and candy and spaghetti.

1:21:15 Yeah, I'll never do it again.

1:21:16 It was bad for six months.

1:21:18 It was I got so excited for this role.

1:21:20 I'm like I'm going to get shredded or jacked, you know, just for fun for me.

1:21:24 Of course.

1:21:25 And I don't know what the suit's going to be.

1:21:26 It was sleeveless, whatever.

1:21:27 They they didn't give us a trainer.

1:21:29 I was like whatever, I'm going to do it on my own.

1:21:30 And but I did I did the keto thing for six months and that was

1:21:34 it it was good for like a few months and it was brutal after that.

1:21:37 I could I just yeah, I had to I had to stop it.

1:21:40 I know it's like people think it's vain and everything,

1:21:41 but the just the the the sensation of like having control over that is

1:21:45 about to say, it gives you control in a way

1:21:47 and it's very it's a healthy I was I you know,

1:21:50 able to channel my obsession kind of into that without

1:21:52 going overboard and it was a lot of fun, you know,

1:21:54 and like have time to do that too and like it's if

1:21:57 you're an actor and you and you're not working or if you are,

1:21:59 but it's if you're off, it's the only way to like structure your day

1:22:02 I feel like around a workout or something.

1:22:04 It's mentally for me like yeah, I have to do it.

1:22:07 There there's a lot of great performances on that show,

1:22:09 but Anthony's is[ __] outrageous.

1:22:12 Outrageous.

1:22:12 It is outrageous.

1:22:13 When Kristen I watch the show, but we love The Boys so much.

1:22:17 We're like the fact that this guy isn't

1:22:18 one every single Emmy is is absolutely insane.

1:22:21 Insane he's not He's not even been nominated once.

1:22:25 Because And yet he has these turns where feel bad for him.

1:22:28 And he's funny sometimes.

1:22:30 He's hilarious.

1:22:31 And he And he Man, is that a performance.

1:22:33 And so He's incredible.

1:22:35 I'm at a restaurant like 6 months ago, and I see him,

1:22:38 and then we're like, "Hey." We stand up, and we hug.

1:22:41 And I'm like, "Oh my god,

1:22:41 it's so It's so great to meet you finally." And he goes,

1:22:44 "Yeah, yeah, since New Zealand." And I was like,

1:22:48 "What's he talking about?" [laughter] And he goes, "You know,

1:22:52 I'm Without a Paddle." And all of a sudden, I was like Oh my god.

1:22:56 You remember you watched it for the reunion.

1:22:59 I know, but I don't We have a dead friend.

1:23:01 The whole movie's about our dead friend Billy Newwood.

1:23:03 He played Billy Newwood, and I was like in the Yes.

1:23:06 And I'm like, [laughter] "Oh my god." But I've seen it.

1:23:08 I don't even remember I'm like, "Dude, nothing could be more out of context.

1:23:12 Like, I met you in New Zealand Yeah.

1:23:14 20 years ago, and yes, now, of course, I realize that that's the dead Billy

1:23:18 They show him Yeah, yeah, in the like our flashback scenes,

1:23:21 where like I'm wearing a leather jacket, and we're like young and cool.

1:23:25 Right.

1:23:25 He was Billy Newwood.

1:23:26 You met him.

1:23:27 He's like, "Hey, mate, how are you doing?" You know?

1:23:28 You're like, "Oh, wow, he's different than Homelander.

1:23:29 It's great." Where did the the guy who created it His name starts with a K?

1:23:34 Eric Kripke.

1:23:35 Kripke.

1:23:36 Kripke.

1:23:36 Where did he come from?

1:23:38 He came from Supernatural.

1:23:39 I don't know that show with Jensen Ackles and Padalecki.

1:23:43 Jensen was on our show as well.

1:23:44 It was a great show.

1:23:45 A long ass run, that show.

1:23:47 Civil War guy, what was his name?

1:23:48 Yeah, Soldier Boy.

1:23:49 Soldier Boy.

1:23:49 Yeah.

1:23:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:23:50 He's got a spin-off they're doing.

1:23:51 Yeah.

1:23:53 are?

1:23:52 Yeah, they're doing a spin-off.

1:23:53 That's a great character.

1:23:55 cool I'm like Yeah, I don't know all the, you know Oh, wonderful.

1:23:58 details, but yeah, it's it's good.

1:23:59 Are you so excited you get to play kind of like a a real like a weirdo?

1:24:04 Totally.

1:24:04 you know, like it's so against what people think about you.

1:24:07 It was so refreshing to me.

1:24:09 And like, we had a day like fourth episode.

1:24:11 And we're like they had a full series

1:24:13 order because of of Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg.

1:24:15 Like, they were behind us.

1:24:16 They They got the full order.

1:24:18 And I'm like, we're middle of the show.

1:24:19 I'm like, "Are the people going to like this?" Cuz I was like, you know,

1:24:22 squirting down a dolphin like talking to some

1:24:24 inanimate dolphin in the back and then they're

1:24:25 moving the van and like Anthony's over there

1:24:28 like in a in an airplane master airplane like,

1:24:31 you know, not saving anyone cuz he's like, "Oh,[ __] you guys." You know,

1:24:34 he's like it was it was it was amazing.

1:24:36 We're like, "Is this but is this are people

1:24:37 going to like connect with it?" Like you know,

1:24:39 really weirdly like tonally like weird but yeah.

1:24:42 So, he came from Supernatural.

1:24:45 Which he did, yeah.

1:24:46 Were Seth and Evan around at all?

1:24:48 They were actually.

1:24:49 They didn't come to set that often they would be at some of the the press

1:24:52 stuff but they were they were they he they sent me emails like,

1:24:55 "Dude, this one line you ad-libbed I keep replaying." Like they were watching.

1:24:59 I was like, "Oh, that's really cool." Evan would like email me

1:25:01 sometimes and they they were just like super fans of the show.

1:25:05 Like they just they really are like comic book fans

1:25:07 at heart and they just wanted to like do what they love.

1:25:09 Now, did they have you in mind or did you have to really win them over for this?

1:25:12 How did you get it?

1:25:14 I don't know the entire genesis of it.

1:25:16 I I remember them landing on they want to cast like people that aren't like,

1:25:21 you know, all their famous friends basically.

1:25:23 Right.

1:25:23 So, so so they wanted to read everyone for it.

1:25:25 And Kripke was very much like wanted to like he was all about

1:25:29 being in the he was in every room for every single I think it's Anthony

1:25:32 cuz he I think Anthony was in he was in made some tape and they're like,

1:25:36 "We want that guy." I remember going in and it was like like 60 people.

1:25:41 I saw the thing I'm like I realized I'm like I'm last of the day.

1:25:44 What's the worst name you saw on the list?

1:25:46 And I don't mean they're bad but you're just like, "Oh, I'm fucked."

1:25:49 You mean like I'll have this.

1:25:51 Like actors you know, you mean?

1:25:52 Well, I'll give you an example.

1:25:53 I remember going in for Baby Mama and I'm sitting

1:25:57 in the waiting room and he's next to me, James Corden.

1:26:00 And he's telling me they just flew him from London for this callback.

1:26:05 And I go, "Well, I'm done.

1:26:07 They're not spending 15 grand to bring this guy Yeah.

1:26:11 from London here.

1:26:14 Right.

1:26:13 I'm just here just so they can, you know,

1:26:15 have something but there's these moments in auditions where you're just like,

1:26:18 well, I'm this is I'm over I'm dead.

1:26:21 Yeah, I I remember feel I remember

1:26:22 recognizing some names and some friends who had

1:26:24 like been They weren't actually in the room cuz I was like last and I

1:26:27 was like I I got I remember being like I just like upset like

1:26:31 that I was like it was like these people aren't going to It's like a Tuesday.

1:26:34 They're going to see 60 people all day.

1:26:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:26:37 And I didn't even realize that Kripke was going to be in the room at the time.

1:26:39 I didn't really know maybe he was like the creator

1:26:42 or maybe I knew he was like a producer.

1:26:43 Um but I remember being just irritated and that's

1:26:46 kind of the best sometimes the best state to be.

1:26:49 Cuz like you kind of don't care at that point.

1:26:51 You're not don't have this air of like, hi, like nice to meet you, you know.

1:26:53 Like I can't get it now.

1:26:54 You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:26:56 I'm thinking, oh, this is It was I remember it was before the holidays.

1:26:58 I'm like they're they're not even going to remember this.

1:27:00 It's going to be They're going to go on hiatus,

1:27:01 top They're going to keep recasting it.

1:27:04 Or you know, bring you back in for a million different reads or whatever.

1:27:08 So I was literally the last person in there

1:27:09 and uh and anyway, I was kind of mad,

1:27:12 just kind of went in there and and and and did it and I

1:27:14 kind of heard Kripke like chuckling in the corner and then he was like,

1:27:17 okay, try to do it like, you know, he kind of throw me a few improv things.

1:27:20 had the lobster was your audition?

1:27:22 thing and then it was that and then

1:27:23 an intense scene with um Starlight, Erin's character.

1:27:27 It was like They changed it in the in the pilot

1:27:30 in the real pilot with this what I actually do, which is a crazy thing.

1:27:33 And that's Sexually assault him.

1:27:34 Yeah, that wasn't in any of the any of the pilots or anything.

1:27:38 Okay, they were holding that.

1:27:40 Yeah, they were like, hey,

1:27:41 this is what was like a big storyline jumping off for her character

1:27:44 in the comics and we're actually going to put that back in.

1:27:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:27:48 And you're going to be the guy to do it and I was like, oh.

1:27:50 I remember being very nervous cuz I was like to me too was going out.

1:27:54 I was like, oh god, this is terrible, yeah.

1:27:56 Yeah, a lot of people would be like, I'm not playing that.

1:27:58 I don't want to play that.

1:28:00 I remember being like, okay, I'm not I'm just going to own this.

1:28:03 We're going to talk about it and talk about it with until

1:28:05 we can get this thing right and like they and they did.

1:28:07 It like took it with very great care and I was nervous as all,

1:28:11 you know, about and like, oh my god, what are people going to say?

1:28:14 Is this going to be the right timing?

1:28:16 Yeah, and I didn't want it to be a big joke, either.

1:28:19 Like, we were making fun of it,

1:28:20 but it was they did it in a very very real way, and uh and it was dark.

1:28:24 And it was that was kind of the theme of the show.

1:28:27 Like, you don't want to meet your heroes,

1:28:28 and it was like this ruined it for, you know, for

1:28:30 The way they handled the tonal shifts on that show is sublime.

1:28:34 It's like that you get every single thing

1:28:36 you could want in a show in that thing.

1:28:38 It was pure genius, yeah.

1:28:40 You're bringing back so many audition [snorts] memories.

1:28:43 Just like just just thinking of sitting in the room I I can tell you

1:28:46 I've been numerous occasions like I have

1:28:48 a audition where I'm going to have to cry, and I'm like, yeah, I can't do that.

1:28:52 I can't [laughter] do it, right?

1:28:53 And you're sitting there and you can hear a guy

1:28:55 who's 3 ft away divided by a paper door,

1:28:58 and this guy's balling, and I can hear it.

1:29:02 And you're just like, oh, [laughter] I'm so[ __]

1:29:05 Across the paper there, I was like, You want to leave.

1:29:07 You go, I should just get up.

1:29:08 I can't.

1:29:09 where you go, I'm going to And you're like, so I'm making a different choice.

1:29:12 And it's a choice.

1:29:13 This is like cuz I can't cry.

1:29:16 So, I'm going to do this other thing that's very hard to do, also.

1:29:20 And he's he's like a trained British dude, of course.

1:29:22 And I'm like, oh my god.

1:29:23 Your arc on the show is yeah, you sexually assault someone.

1:29:27 Yeah, terrible.

1:29:28 Then you got to rehab your public persona.

1:29:32 Right.

1:29:31 And you join this very Scientology-esque church.

1:29:35 Amazing, yeah.

1:29:36 And you're like, lose your autonomy in there.

1:29:40 Right.

1:29:39 And then they pair you with a a wife.

1:29:43 Right.

1:29:43 she ditches you.

1:29:44 And then you find love with an octopus.

1:29:46 [laughter] Yeah, like the the right

1:29:48 Is there been any like, have you pushed back ever?

1:29:52 Or had you just like,

1:29:55 I imagine after season 1 they've built now some confidence with you.

1:29:58 Like, my these[ __] can pull off anything.

1:30:00 So, I'm just now I can go with God.

1:30:01 Do you enter like season 2 just going like,

1:30:04 oh yeah, I'll[ __] snorkel beer out of someone's ass.

1:30:07 Like, I'll do anything they say cuz they can land the plane.

1:30:10 Yeah, I mean, season 2 was was great cuz they had this like mushroom

1:30:14 tea thing and I was like tripping with the gills and talking to them.

1:30:17 I thought that was so great.

1:30:18 Yeah, yeah.

1:30:19 And funny.

1:30:19 And and then but then season 2, yeah,

1:30:21 like Well, Crypti called me up and he was like,

1:30:23 "Have you seen like my octopus teacher?" And I was like,

1:30:26 [laughter] "Yeah." Didn't it seem like that guy

1:30:30 was like trying to[ __] the octopus?

1:30:32 [laughter] Kind of.

1:30:35 I was like, "What are you talking about, man?" Like That's your storyline.

1:30:39 [laughter] But I but but I was I remember being hesitant,

1:30:41 but then he was like, "No, no, no, but it's real.

1:30:43 Like, the only people you can he can connect with.

1:30:46 He can't connect with humans.

1:30:47 Like, he's That's like your safe space and you keep

1:30:51 her like in a in a in a tank in your closet.

1:30:54 It's kind of mean.

1:30:55 It feels like a secret and she's I know.

1:30:57 It's very deep.

1:30:58 Oh, he's like, "You're reading poetry.

1:30:59 Troy, this is brilliant." You[ __] didn't clean her tank, man.

1:31:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:31:04 Not only did he not let her be in the tank above your bed,

1:31:06 but like it's filthy, man.

1:31:07 Well, people can't see.

1:31:09 But she's sitting in there in a murky[ __] stew that he should You know what?

1:31:13 It's kind of like I probably I'm sure they've made

1:31:15 this It's like when people fell in love with their slaves.

1:31:19 Munchausen syndrome kind of thing?

1:31:21 Well, no, like really when people fell in love with their slaves,

1:31:24 but they were still enslaved and it was like,

1:31:26 "You're over there, but I'm going to Yeah, I maybe will cut that.

1:31:29 Well, I'll probably [laughter] I'll I'm going to I make the decisions.

1:31:34 You'll decide.

1:31:35 Hopefully, you're in a good mood that day.

1:31:37 Munchausen's I'm very interested in as well.

1:31:39 Could be Munchausen's.

1:31:40 Your two favorite topics are CTE and Munchausen's.

1:31:42 Yeah, really interesting.

1:31:44 Have you met someone who There's Munchausen was claiming they had CTE.

1:31:48 He would spray.

1:31:50 Oh, [laughter] I see.

1:31:51 Like part of their Munchausen's is that Oh, yeah.