How to Confront Your Inner Critic (W/ Anu Gupta) | How to Be a Better Human | TED

0:00 When I was growing up in Delhi, my town was often under a police lockdown.

0:05 We couldn't leave our homes because of ethnic tensions.

0:07 So, at school, I'd ask my teachers,

0:10 "Why is this happening?" They'd say, "Because those people are bad." "Wait,

0:14 what's bad about them?" "They're not like us,

0:16 they're different." After moving to New York, I became those people.

0:22 Apparently, I worshipped cows.

0:24 Apparently, I was stupid, dirty, ugly.

0:28 These definitions were accepted as fact before I even said a word.

0:32 All based on the way I looked.

0:34 So, I decided to assimilate and become American as quickly as possible.

0:38 I changed my accent, I changed the way I dressed.

0:41 I even went by the name Andy.

0:44 Yet, all too often, just walking down the street or riding the subway, I'd hear,

0:48 "Hey Osama, go back to where you came

0:50 from." Every time I heard that, my heart sank.

0:57 I'd already changed everything I could possibly change about myself.

1:02 For years, I just ignored it.

1:05 I took comfort in the science.

1:07 When I was in high school, the Human Genome Project proved that race is a story.

1:11 That people are 99.9% genetically identical, regardless of what we look like.

1:17 But emotionally, I began to feel disconnected from my peers

1:22 and the country I now called my own.

1:25 Over time, I just couldn't imagine living this way.

1:30 So, 8 years ago, I found myself on the ledge of my 18th floor window,

1:35 contemplating jumping off.

1:38 As I stood there, looking at the teeny,

1:41 tiny cars below, I had a flash of insight.

1:45 The stereotypes people reduce me to are just ideas.

1:49 They're not true.

1:51 I realized people aren't seeing me.

1:54 Anurag, entrepreneur, lawyer.

1:57 People are seeing ideas of me.

2:00 And it was those ideas that kept me

2:01 that kept me depressed and paranoid all these years.

2:05 And I realized I wasn't alone.

2:07 I don't want to live in a world where we live in ideas of one another.

2:10 I want to live in a world where we live in the presence of one another.

2:14 The real people.

2:16 This is why I've committed my life to breaking bias.

2:23 Hi, my name is Anurag and I'm the author of Breaking

2:27 Bias with a forward by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

2:30 And I'm also the founder of Be More with Anurag,

2:32 an tech company that trains individuals and organizations

2:35 in building belonging within workplaces and communities.

2:38 I guess let's start with that, which is it's pretty unusual

2:41 for a book to have a forward by the Dalai Lama.

2:44 Indeed.

2:45 That must be a big honor and also how did that come about?

2:49 Yeah, I feel like it's a spiritual shield for this work.

2:53 You know, we're living in these quite uncertain times

2:56 where there's just such rise of polarization and division,

2:59 not just in the US but around the world.

3:01 And I think His Holiness, after he read the book,

3:04 really felt that and the potential of this book

3:06 and he wanted to lend his name to this work.

3:09 Because like him, I believe that the 21st

3:12 century isn't just about technological innovation,

3:15 it's really about inner development,

3:17 particularly development of warm-heartedness and other tools

3:21 that I talk a lot about in the book.

3:24 It is not a moment in the world,

3:27 especially politically, where it feels like warm-heartedness or diversity,

3:33 equity and inclusion are they don't have, let's put it, the winds behind them.

3:39 Yeah.

3:39 The the wind is not in the sails of those concepts at the moment right now.

3:42 So, how do you adjust to going from a time where there was kind

3:49 of broad cultural support for these ideas

3:52 to now broad cultural repression of these ideas.

3:56 I think what's been a real gift for me,

3:57 particularly like using the mindfulness and the mind the Buddhist

4:01 mind sciences and the neurosciences is that the gift of time.

4:04 This work of breaking bias,

4:06 it's really about deep time and the evolution of human consciousness.

4:10 I look at it that way.

4:11 I'm also really aware of history and where our species has been,

4:15 not just 100 years ago, but 1,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago.

4:19 So, knowing that deep time really gives me comfort

4:22 that this is really this is how we become better humans.

4:25 Breaking bias is not just a path that's rooted in social justice or fairness.

4:30 It's really a path to more profitability, to success,

4:33 to belonging, to healing, and so many other things.

4:37 So, your book, Breaking Bias,

4:39 one of the things that I think is so interesting about this is

4:42 that instead of it just being looking at bias and how to be more inclusive,

4:50 instead of just looking at that in kind

4:52 of narrow framework of what do we do right now?

4:54 I mean, you quite literally go back millions of years.

4:56 We're talking about like the geological formation of the earth.

5:00 Yeah.

5:00 Uh which is not what I expected from a book about bias.

5:02 Yeah.

5:03 It's interesting, right?

5:04 Because when we think about bias,

5:06 when we think about our relationships with each other as human beings,

5:09 is that we have to also shift our relationship with nature,

5:12 with the living earth, with what's known as more than human beings,

5:15 you know, animals, birds, fish, insects, the whole ecology of things.

5:19 And we're living through a time of the Anthropocene, right?

5:22 Where human beings have become so powerful

5:24 that we have caused so much destruction to ecology.

5:27 So, I think for me, when I think about bias, of course we think about racism,

5:32 sexism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, you know,

5:34 transphobia, and the standard human-based biases.

5:38 But, I think we also have to include biophobia,

5:40 like deep hatred of the earth, the need to dominate the earth,

5:44 uh you know, speciesism, you know,

5:45 what about the other beings with whom we share this planet?

5:49 And I think for me, going back into geological

5:51 time and just seeing how we as a species

5:54 have evolved has really been helpful to really think

5:56 about all these other living beings as our kin.

5:59 And how breaking bias isn't just

6:02 something that will enhance human relationships,

6:04 but it's really the root cause or root

6:07 solution to every single problem we face individually,

6:11 locally, and glob- globally.

6:12 Whether it's climate change or ecological destruction,

6:15 and so of course polarization, misinformation, breakdown of democracy.

6:19 Bias is really the building block of all these challenges.

6:22 You've come to this work because of who you are and your background.

6:25 Tell me about that.

6:26 What is the the personal history that brings you to this?

6:29 I am an immigrant to the United States.

6:31 My family moved to the US when I was 10 years old.

6:33 Um, a lot of the slurs became directed at me for being a heathen,

6:38 being a pagan, being a terrorist.

6:40 You know, after 9/11,

6:40 I was in New York City and I would just have people call me Osama

6:43 bin Laden on the street and ask people to go back to where I came from.

6:46 As a young person, I didn't know how to deal with any of these things.

6:49 These things weren't sexy to talk about, so I would just repress them.

6:53 I would just be like, "Okay, well, I'll just ignore them.

6:55 They're just ignorant." And go about my way.

6:58 And the way I thought I could really succeed in this new home of mine was just,

7:02 you know, to you know, excel academically, professionally, which I did.

7:06 You know, I went to college, I went to grad school at Cambridge,

7:08 you know, graduating top of my class, and went off to law school.

7:12 And throughout this time,

7:12 I was kind of following the thread of what is this thing called bias?

7:17 Why are people cruel to one another just for no other reason than their being?

7:21 And it was in law school, you know,

7:23 what I went to law school to study human rights law, civil rights law,

7:26 and we're studying like all of the case law that has made us who we are,

7:30 civil rights legislation, international human rights norms.

7:33 But whenever I would talk about my own experiences with bias,

7:37 you know, I would just meet, you know, dead silence, awkward pauses,

7:41 and oftentimes gaslighting, basically denial of my own emotions.

7:46 So, I was a young, you know,

7:48 20-something-year-old person and never been to therapy,

7:50 had never done any kind of healing work.

7:52 I was just in my head.

7:54 And I started believing that, oh,

7:55 maybe everything what people are saying about me is true.

7:58 No, so it wasn't just the societal narratives

8:01 about my humanity because of my intersectional identities,

8:05 but it was actually my own understanding of who I

8:07 was because I was trying to go away from being brown,

8:11 being an immigrant, being gay.

8:13 I was still closeted.

8:15 And it was actually right before the second year of my law school,

8:17 I found myself on the ledge of my 18th floor window about to jump off.

8:22 And the interesting thing about that night is I did jump.

8:26 But, I have no explanation for this, but for the grace of God,

8:30 I'm alive because instead of falling forward,

8:32 I fell backwards into my apartment.

8:34 And within that moment, I just thought to call a friend,

8:37 uh another queer Asian-American person, and who lives quite far away from me.

8:42 If you all know New York, I was in Midtown and she lived in Harlem,

8:45 but she happened to be walking on my block that very moment.

8:49 She just took the elevator up to the 18th floor, sat in my apartment for hours.

8:54 And the next day, I began my own breaking bias journey.

8:56 I was like, "Whoa, I can't believe I was almost

9:00 not going to exist." And I think it was for me,

9:03 the journey really began with my own self.

9:06 My nervous system, my body, my brain, my emotions were the they were the lab.

9:14 And I basically went after so many different technologies, ancient technologies,

9:18 modern technologies, talk therapies, somatic-based therapies,

9:23 just to see, what is this thing?

9:24 Why do I believe all these stories about myself?

9:27 And I wanted to understand where these stories came from.

9:30 Stories about being wrong because I'm gay, stories about, you know,

9:34 being inferior because I'm Indian or I'm brown

9:37 or my family is Hindu or Buddhist and not Christian.

9:41 Stories about being wealthy or poor.

9:43 Where do these stories come from?

9:45 And that's where I think my journey really began.

9:47 You know, I was working as a lawyer after law school,

9:50 um working on issues of racial and gender equity.

9:53 Um really passionate about trying to use root cause

9:57 analysis to understand a lot of these systemic problems.

10:00 You know, oftentimes we think about systemic racism or patriarchy or misogyny.

10:04 What is the cause of that?

10:05 And we get really cerebral answers.

10:08 And I wanted to get to the root of it.

10:10 Like, how do I explain this to my 6-year-old niece?

10:13 You know, who's experiencing this herself.

10:15 And that's how I came to understand that oh,

10:18 this work is really about inner development.

10:21 There's so much that's really important there.

10:24 One thing that I want to start with is Well,

10:28 first of all, I'm really I'm very glad that you are here.

10:31 Thank you.

10:32 And that and that you survived.

10:35 And that I think that's not um that is not a given.

10:40 And one thing that I've learned in my in my personal

10:44 experience with having loved ones who, you know,

10:47 have been in similar moments of of um suicidality

10:51 is that um two of the kind of biggest

10:54 myths around suicidal thinking or or suicidal actions

10:58 are that talking about it makes it more likely.

11:01 That's right.

11:01 that if we talk about it, they're going to get the idea of it.

11:04 That's right.

11:04 People already have the idea.

11:06 And then the other one is that um you need to fix it right away.

11:10 That's right.

11:11 And I think the idea that really what you

11:15 need to do is hang on for one more hour.

11:17 That's right.

11:18 And then one more hour becomes another hour and that there's

11:21 the possibility of big change by very, very tiny changes.

11:25 By just making it one more hour.

11:27 And then also this idea that we if we talk about

11:30 the big horrible thing that it doesn't make it more likely,

11:34 it makes it less likely.

11:36 I see, and I wonder if you do,

11:38 a a very direct parallel between that individual dealing

11:42 with of pain and of wanting to not be alive.

11:46 Yeah.

11:46 And also the societal level Absolutely.

11:49 judgment and cruelty and the kind of horrors

11:52 that we can inflict on other people.

11:54 Yeah, and often times those horrors that we

11:56 inflict on others we inflict on ourselves.

11:58 That's what I've come to realize.

12:00 I think for me it was really interesting because I also came

12:03 from a relatively conservative Asian Indian family where it's not just okay,

12:08 I mean it's not just about being gay,

12:10 um but it was also like mental health is just not talked about.

12:13 It's something's deeply deeply repressed.

12:15 So I think for me it was just not having a space to be for a very long time.

12:20 But you know, I just I think I at that moment I just took a leap of faith.

12:25 And I think every moment like you said,

12:27 every hour has been that leap leap of faith and then it's been 16 years.

12:30 Um and I still remember that day, you know, so fresh in my mind.

12:35 And I know that I'm here for a reason because I am a living,

12:39 breathing, walking, dancing, singing example of what's possible.

12:44 Because the technologies that are going

12:46 to help us to overcome that self-loathing, that depression, that chronic stress,

12:50 that anxiety, the loneliness just so pervasive in our society right now,

12:54 they've been with us for thousands of years.

12:57 Um our neuroscientists in Alaska over decades have given it new names.

13:02 They have given us evidence that they work at the neuro level,

13:06 at the somatic level, at the emotional level.

13:09 So for me now it's really like,

13:10 how do we apply all this information that we have?

13:13 You know, I feel like we've moved past the information age.

13:16 We have so much information.

13:18 Uh what we really like is wisdom.

13:20 And I think for me it's now applying all that wisdom to imagine what's possible.

13:25 You know, if we can imagine colonizing Mars,

13:27 why can't we imagine living on Earth without bias?

13:30 You know, what's happened to our moral imagination?

13:32 I feel like that's what the century is really calling for us to do.

13:36 When you say technologies, these technologies that we've had,

13:39 what are some examples of those technologies that you're talking of?

13:42 Yeah.

13:42 Well, I think for me,

13:43 one of the things about the modalities that help break bias, I call it prism.

13:47 And prism is an acronym for these five tools,

13:49 and we start at M and move our way up to P.

13:52 And it's really a mindfulness-based, somatically informed practice.

13:56 So, we start with mindfulness, which is just present moment awareness.

14:00 You know, just noticing what happens,

14:02 one after another, whether it's our breath,

14:04 whether it's our thought, whether it's our emotions,

14:06 but especially our body sensations.

14:09 Bias really lives in the body.

14:11 And we can't really begin to belong

14:13 in the body until we heal that in our bodies.

14:16 You know, every ancient technology, which is basically wisdom traditions,

14:19 whether it's Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or Islam,

14:23 they've all said, "Awareness.

14:26 Be still and know that I am." Mhm.

14:28 You know, that's what's written in the Bible.

14:29 I didn't make that up.

14:30 And then that's where we begin.

14:31 That's mindfulness, a foundation.

14:33 Then we move to stereotype replacement for S,

14:36 which is really when stereotypes arise.

14:39 You know, so socially we've been like conditioned to think that, "Oh my god,

14:42 I'm bad." And then kind of then you feel shame, you feel guilt, you feel blame.

14:47 But actually all we have to do is shine a light on it.

14:49 Oh, that's a stereotype.

14:51 Okay.

14:52 But instead of letting that just stay there,

14:54 we replace it with a counter example.

14:57 Mhm.

14:58 A positive example.

14:59 For me, this was a really powerful tool.

15:01 Like every time I had that critic come in, and still does,

15:05 you know, "You're silly, you're stupid, you're dumb." Like whatever.

15:09 I take a moment, okay.

15:11 I hear you, and I'm also the exact opposite.

15:15 Mhm.

15:16 I'm also kind, I'm also sweet, I'm also charismatic.

15:19 And constantly doing that, that's how we're rewiring the brain.

15:22 That's how we rewiring the nervous system

15:24 that's been wired with all these biases.

15:27 And then we move to I, which is really about individuation.

15:31 Curiosity, interest, being with the person,

15:34 being with ourselves just as we are in this moment.

15:37 Because there's a broader wisdom that we are going to evolve.

15:40 We've been evolving since we were born.

15:42 And also others, too.

15:44 And lastly, we move to prosocial behaviors

15:46 and perspective taking, the R and the P.

15:49 And these are really heart-based practices.

15:50 This is active cultivation of empathy, compassion, joy, altruism, imagination.

15:58 This is what the Dalai Lama calls warmheartedness.

16:01 And oftentimes, again, in our society,

16:02 we've been conditioned to feel that we're just born with these tools.

16:05 Actually, no.

16:07 Just as biases are learned, belonging can also be learned.

16:11 All of these tools can also be learned.

16:13 We can actually rewire ourselves through these practices.

16:16 And that's basically what I teach in the book

16:18 and what I've been teaching to thousands

16:19 of professionals for the last 10 years is

16:22 how do we really rewire our nervous system?

16:23 How do we rewire our brain

16:26 to really build a healthier relationship with ourselves,

16:29 with one another, with nature,

16:32 as well as with our imagination to see what's possible.

16:35 A way that you talk about this in the book is that bias is a habit.

16:39 So, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

16:41 You know, when I started my own breaking bias journey,

16:44 I was like, well, what is bias?

16:45 And I would go to the literature, the sociological literature,

16:47 and a lot of the common trainers on this topic,

16:51 and they would say that, "Oh, we're just born with it.

16:53 It's the survival instinct in us.

16:55 You know, our amygdala brain is fearful,

16:57 and we kind of divide ourselves into in-groups and out-groups."

17:01 But I was I was like, wait wait a minute.

17:03 When my niece was born or my nephews were born,

17:06 they didn't think that, you know, boys are better than girls.

17:10 They didn't think that light skin is more beautiful than dark skin.

17:13 This was taught to them.

17:14 And the more I went into the neural mechanisms of how bias is learned,

17:18 I was like, "Whoa, bias isn't inherent." Because yes,

17:21 we have the survival instinct.

17:23 We need to know a difference between a cute

17:24 little puppy and a lion because of danger.

17:28 But if we have two human beings who are exactly the part of the same species,

17:32 why is it that we treat them differently?

17:34 That's the learned part.

17:35 Sometimes these kind of immediate frameworks they're helpful because

17:40 it's easier and quicker to have a connection with someone.

17:43 So like I see a person and I sort them

17:47 into a box and then we can connect based on that box.

17:50 I don't have to do all of the mental labor

17:52 of exactly who is this person and exactly who am I.

17:54 We can connect.

17:55 That's right.

17:56 So there is a piece that's efficient.

17:59 Absolutely.

18:00 I guess what I'm saying is if you were to walk down

18:04 the street and truly see every individual you passed as an individual,

18:09 I don't think you would ever be able to move from point A to point B.

18:12 Yeah.

18:13 And yet what we don't want to do is go so far the other way

18:16 that we don't see the humanness of the people

18:18 who we're walking past on the street.

18:19 So how do you find the balance between those two?

18:22 That's right.

18:23 You know, so the way I define bias is

18:24 it's a learned habit that distorts how we perceive,

18:28 reason, remember, and make decisions.

18:31 So I think that last portion about

18:32 making decisions is really essential and important.

18:35 Most people who walk down the street,

18:37 of course, you know, we have our own preferences.

18:40 But it's not really bias.

18:41 It's just like, "Oh yeah, judgments will arise." We just notice the judgments.

18:44 We're we're aware of them.

18:45 But we're not making any decisions toward them.

18:48 For me it becomes nefarious when you're

18:51 a doctor and you're making discretion you know,

18:54 decisions around the types of medications you're going to you know,

18:57 prescribe or diagnosing a treatment and creating a treatment plan for them.

19:01 If you're a teacher disciplining students.

19:04 If you're you know, hiring manager hiring certain people.

19:07 You're making decisions that affect other people's livelihoods.

19:10 And those micro decisions in aggregate at an institutional level,

19:13 at an at a systemic level into disparities,

19:16 into inequities, inequalities, and so much human suffering.

19:21 You know, we've seen it, you know, with police violence in the US,

19:23 for example, or other countries around the world,

19:25 whether it's France or Germany.

19:27 What's happening in the nervous system of those police officers?

19:31 You know, why is it that they see the phenotype of a certain person,

19:34 black or brown skin, and then suddenly they feel fear?

19:37 That fear is stored in the body, and they haven't been trained.

19:41 So, that's what I'm really talking about when it comes to breaking bias.

19:44 It's really a disconnection from ourselves and one another.

19:48 And we're basically unregulated in our nervous systems.

19:52 And what the prism tools really help us do is really regulate our bodies.

19:56 You and I share that we both taught English in South Korea.

20:00 Yeah.

20:00 Um which is is wonderful.

20:02 It's a great experience.

20:03 I I loved being there.

20:04 I know you loved being there, too.

20:05 I mean, you talk about how you recognized in yourself that often

20:09 if you encountered someone who was of Korean ancestry or was South Korean,

20:14 that you would try and find a way

20:16 to immediately talk to them about this experience.

20:20 Yeah.

20:20 And And what I like about how you did it

20:22 in the book is you said like there's nothing inherently wrong with this.

20:25 But what you realize is that you're

20:27 not really seeing the wholeness of this person.

20:30 You're just like, "Oh,

20:30 here's an opportunity for me to connect on their Korean-ness." Yeah.

20:34 And as soon as I read that, I was like, "Wow, that is a hundred percent,

20:38 like not even the kind of thing I've done,

20:40 but like exactly the thing where I'm like, 'Oh, you're from Korea.

20:43 I lived in Suwon.

20:45 Let's talk about that.'" And I wonder if you can

20:47 talk a little bit more about the nuance of this.

20:50 things that you said, I mean, there's so much to unpack there,

20:52 but I do think that the cultural narratives around,

20:56 you know, branding people and canceling people are incredibly unskillful.

21:00 They're incredibly unwholesome because they keep us in a cycle of shame.

21:05 You know, one of my favorite scholars, Brené Brown, says, "Shame is a deeply,

21:08 deeply painful feeling rooted in this belief that we're unworthy of love,

21:14 belonging, connection, that we're flawed,

21:16 there's something wrong with us." And that's what's happened

21:18 in the last 10 years in our cultural zeitgeist.

21:21 We have basically said some people are just bad.

21:23 People aren't bad.

21:24 Bias is just part of our neural circuitry.

21:26 And, you know, as I talk about, we've learned these biases from five causes.

21:29 All of us, regardless of who we are, how many dominant identities we have,

21:32 how many subordinate identities we have, we all have them.

21:36 So, I think for me, that began to give me a lot of leeway.

21:39 And to be like, "Oh, like,

21:40 of course I have thoughts that are biased towards people

21:43 because of their skin color or their sexuality or their gender,

21:46 but they're just thoughts, and I can become aware of them,

21:48 and I can begin to switch them." Now, the question around the South Korean is,

21:53 cuz I've done this for years, and it was only until actually I started

21:55 reading the writing the book four years ago, that I was like, "Wait,

21:59 this is kind of problematic." Because what I began to realize is that my desire

22:05 to connect with someone of Korean ancestry was rooted in me and my experience.

22:11 It had nothing to do with the other person.

22:13 And it's actually quite harmless.

22:14 I'm like, "Oh, I just want to share with people that, hey,

22:17 you know, I lived in Korea." But how would I feel if, you know,

22:23 someone walking down the street came up to me like,

22:25 "Oh, I went to India last year,

22:28 and I loved it." And this has actually happened to me a lot of times.

22:31 And I mean, it doesn't bother me that much, but I'm also like,

22:33 "I'm so much more than my skin color and my ethnicity." So,

22:37 that's where I was like, "Oh, I think there's some nuance here." Um,

22:40 we often just connect with one another based on like race and gender primarily,

22:44 those two like very clear markers.

22:47 And I think for me, if we want to imagine building

22:49 a world where all beings belong in the fullness of our diversity,

22:53 we actually have to practice that within ourselves.

22:56 So, in in an attempt to do that with you,

22:59 uh rather than ask ask something that I think would be reductive

23:02 and not be a part of your identity that you like to talk about.

23:05 Um from reading the book and from doing some research about you,

23:08 I believe that something that you really

23:10 enjoy is learning languages and being a polyglot.

23:12 Yeah.

23:13 Mhm.

23:13 Um I know you've studied Japanese.

23:15 You speak Actually, how many languages do you speak and which languages?

23:19 I speak three, I would say.

23:20 You know, Hindi, Urdu, and English.

23:23 But I have studied like a dozen others over the span of my you know, lifetime.

23:28 You know, I've studied Persian and Arabic,

23:31 Korean, Japanese, um French, and a few others.

23:35 Um and I feel like for me learning languages has

23:39 been really beautiful because it's given me access to different cosmologies,

23:44 different ways of imagining the world.

23:47 And one of the things, you know,

23:48 I talked a little bit about how we're breaking bias is

23:51 really the root cause of every challenge we face in the world.

23:54 And we're living through a time where

23:56 we're losing a human language every 14 days.

23:59 So basically with that library of wisdom of imagining what it's

24:05 like to be in relationship with ourselves and the elements around us.

24:09 And that's why I feel like you know,

24:11 this is why it's so important for us to begin to really retain languages.

24:15 Languages are a way to communicate, to commune with ideas.

24:21 Mhm.

24:22 I also love learning languages.

24:24 Oh yeah?

24:24 What do you speak?

24:25 Um well, I'm similar to you in that I don't really speak many fluently.

24:28 I I can speak uh English and French pretty pretty well.

24:33 And Spanish also pretty well.

24:35 But then I've studied Korean and Greek and um Senegalese Wolof.

24:39 And one of the reasons I love

24:40 it is because there's always a conceptual framework That's right.

24:46 in a new language where um either there's

24:48 a specific word that you can't translate literally That's right.

24:51 or there's a way of framing things that's different

24:54 than and I frame it in my native language, English.

24:57 That's right.

24:58 And it just makes me realize the that the world is not one set way.

25:04 And to me, I think that's at the heart

25:06 of so much of what you write about in Breaking Bias.

25:08 Yeah, I'll give you an example that I found so fascinating.

25:10 You know, I was studying, again,

25:12 how gender and binary gender in particular came around.

25:15 And I discovered a tribe in Indonesia, the Bugis people.

25:19 In their language, they have five genders.

25:22 So, like, everything that they conjugate is based on those five genders.

25:26 You know, basically what in our language it would be basically a cis man,

25:30 a cis woman, a trans man, a trans woman,

25:32 and an androgenous person, generally intersex people.

25:35 And, you know, despite colonization, despite Islamization,

25:40 that's still still part of their language, their conception of humanity.

25:43 And there's nothing wrong with the isness of these five genders of humans.

25:48 And it's just so beautiful, right?

25:50 And it's because of language.

25:52 Language gave them permission to imagine that.

25:54 And I feel like in the English language and other romance languages,

25:58 we're beginning to innovate.

25:59 You know, in the English language for non-binary identities,

26:02 we've been using they/them.

26:04 It's an experiment.

26:04 We'll see what's going to be, right?

26:06 But it's allowed so many humans, finally, to feel like they belong in the way

26:12 they communicate and conceptualize their existence.

26:15 And that's really the beauty of language.

26:17 Okay, so with this idea that there's language and nuance,

26:21 um a moment that really struck me is

26:23 you talk a lot about your your personal story.

26:25 You also talk about your family.

26:27 And you have this nuance even within the same person.

26:31 Yeah.

26:31 And so you have these two interactions

26:33 that you write about very movingly with your grandmother.

26:36 One is where she's kind of very quite

26:38 aggressively tells you to not dance like a girl.

26:40 That's right.

26:41 And you feel really shut down.

26:43 But then there's this other time where she explains to you

26:47 the culture the cultural idea that there's a a vastness of gender,

26:52 That there's just one spirit that puts on many different um clothes.

26:56 Clothes, yeah.

26:57 And I think the fact that it's the same

26:59 person who gave you both of those interactions That's right.

27:02 is quite revealing about like the nature of people

27:05 in in the ways that we have these biases, too.

27:08 And it's kind of drill you know, for me making sense of that was really because

27:12 I began to look at her and her humanity

27:15 and how bias was drilled into her, particularly

27:18 biased toward herself as a woman.

27:20 She's no longer with us,

27:21 but she was married off when she was in the fourth grade.

27:24 I think she was 13 years old.

27:26 And then she started having children at 15.

27:29 And a lifetime of being othered.

27:32 Someone who was so wise, so smart, but just wasn't given any opportunity for no

27:38 other reason than her body parts, right?

27:41 Because she was born a girl,

27:42 because she was born a woman in a conservative Indian society.

27:46 You know, again, she went back to her ancient wisdom, right?

27:48 Her spiritual wisdom, which basically says that Shiva Shakti,

27:51 that's her idea of yin yang,

27:54 that all human beings have these two energies, you know, masculine and feminine.

27:59 And for me, that really came up when when I was a young boy,

28:02 I started noticing the third gender in Indian society,

28:05 what are known as kinners or hijras.

28:07 These are generally intersex people or, you know,

28:10 people who are born as men, but feel like they're women, so trans women.

28:14 And they dress they live as women.

28:17 And I was like, wait, how is it that men can dress like women?

28:20 And this was I think coming from a deep curiosity

28:22 within myself because I couldn't explain my sexuality at that time.

28:26 I was like, is it okay for them to dress like a woman?

28:28 And and she was like, yeah, of course.

28:31 Because that's the energy that's predominant in them.

28:34 But that same woman also, like you said, you know,

28:37 I remember dancing to a Bollywood song as like a six

28:40 or seven-year-old um in front of some of her guests,

28:44 and she took me me and really like told me

28:47 that she I will never dance like that over her dead body.

28:51 Until she dies and I never did.

28:53 She was really attached to a story that was drilled

28:55 into her through a lifetime of experiences of a binary gender.

29:01 You know, men must boys must be men and girls must be

29:04 women and they have very very specific roles that they play in society.

29:08 Um and then policies and that's what she taught me

29:10 samaj ke niyam hai which basically means the rules in society.

29:15 And these rules were really about our bodies and our identities.

29:19 And that's how she kind of justified everything.

29:22 And then again the way each of us learns these biases is through social contact,

29:27 you know, the environments that we're

29:29 in, whether it's built environments or virtual environments,

29:32 our trusted spheres of influence, you know, education, what we learn in school,

29:37 what we don't learn in school, a lot of misinformation there, and then media.

29:42 So I think for me it was like, "Whoa, like it was just in front of me all

29:45 this time." I wonder for people who are listening right now,

29:51 well, I guess I want to ask about both camps.

29:53 Let's start with the people who are listening who are um inclined towards this.

29:57 Yeah.

29:58 Who they they believe what you're saying, this resonates with them,

30:01 that they kind of feel like naturally drawn towards all of these things.

30:05 There's not a lot of resistance.

30:07 What can they do to create more of this kind

30:11 of breaking of bias in the world and in themselves?

30:14 Yeah, I think it's really it's a beautiful question and I feel like for me,

30:18 you know, systems don't change until people do.

30:22 And people don't change until our consciousness does.

30:25 So it's really about shifting our mindsets.

30:27 And what I found really helpful is a contemplative practice.

30:31 And it's really again taking the attention from external

30:34 stimuli inward to begin to notice our own bodies, to notice our minds,

30:39 notice what's happening in our minds,

30:41 how we're treating ourselves and others in our own the intimacy of our homes.

30:45 And I think folks for whom this resonates are those people.

30:49 They're contemplatives, they're mystics,

30:50 they feel like they're connected not just to one another as humans,

30:53 to themselves, but also with nature, with the living earth, with the elements.

30:57 And they're living more holistically.

31:00 You know, in their body, what I call neck down as well.

31:03 What about people who What do you say to the people who are like,

31:07 "I'm inclined against this.

31:09 I feel strongly against this." So you're from me,

31:11 it's kind of finding a middle ground.

31:14 So certain people who are craving this are going to be leaders.

31:19 Um so it's like the 20-60-20 rule.

31:21 And then I'm really going after the 60% in the middle.

31:23 Mhm.

31:24 Who are indifferent, who are who just don't know, but they can be persuaded.

31:28 And for me, those of those of them who are more inclined to rational thinking,

31:33 who like the sciences, I'm just extending an invitation.

31:37 Mhm.

31:37 Hey, let's just try this.

31:38 You know, be a scientist of your own experience.

31:41 Try these tools.

31:42 Try doing loving kindness every day for a week toward yourself.

31:45 See how you feel.

31:46 And then make a decision.

31:48 Right now I'm not inclined to go after

31:49 the people that are opposed to this because, you know,

31:53 I feel again, being rooted in my own ancient lineages,

31:56 that our goal right now is to really build critical mass.

31:58 Mhm.

31:59 You know, so we are basically for me,

32:01 I'm building critical mass toward to get to that tipping point.

32:04 And once we reach that tipping point, the people that are you know,

32:08 they're just don't find this appealing at all or they're averse to it,

32:12 they'll begin to notice things around them shifting.

32:14 Mhm.

32:15 Their partners are acting a certain way, their kids are acting a certain way,

32:18 their co-workers are acting a certain way,

32:21 they're hearing different messages in their church.

32:23 They're like, "Whoa, there must be something to this." Mhm.

32:26 You think of them as like Luddites who like finally give in.

32:29 Right?

32:29 People that were like, "Oh,

32:31 I don't want a phone." But eventually they got a phone.

32:33 "Oh, I don't want to get any apps." Oh, eventually got they got apps.

32:36 And we're seeing this right now.

32:37 I don't want to get on chat GPT and slowly, you know, they'll adopt onto it.

32:42 And of course, there are people that will persist

32:44 for the until their last breath, which is okay.

32:48 That's their choice.

32:50 But for me, I think folks that are not willing to even try it are live

32:57 I I would just say that they're living

32:59 from a very limited sense of who they are.

33:01 Look, I know this sounds like the most

33:03 patronizing kind of anything I could possibly say.

33:06 But but I do genuinely feel like it makes

33:09 me sad to think about it because often the people

33:13 who are who reject love and kindness the most

33:17 are the ones who also need it the most.

33:18 That's right.

33:19 Um and so I think that the way you just framed it of if

33:22 we create a world where love and kindness are not rare luxury commodities

33:30 That's right.

33:31 where they are more common Yeah.

33:33 everyone benefits and even the people who are

33:35 most who believe themselves to be the most

33:38 actively opposed to it will will benefit

33:40 as well and they'll see that slowly over time.

33:42 Yeah.

33:43 It's like I think about there was this one time when I

33:45 was teaching actually and I used to call my students dear ones, too.

33:48 What's up, dear?

33:49 And one angsty teenager is like, I am not your dear.

33:53 Don't call me dear.

33:54 I'm like, great.

33:55 You don't feel like my dear right now and that's okay.

33:58 You know, you're allowed to have your feelings.

34:00 But to me, you'll always be dear regardless of what you do.

34:04 For me personally unlearning some of these ideas

34:08 about what is natural has been really helpful.

34:11 I was interviewing a scientist who studies bonobos.

34:15 Mhm.

34:16 The the primate.

34:16 That's right.

34:17 And something that this scientist told me,

34:21 which I thought about so much since uh since I learned it is she

34:24 said that we are just as closely related to bonobos as we are to chimpanzees.

34:29 We're very very very related to both of them.

34:31 Mhm.

34:31 However, chimpanzees have in the wild quite a violent society.

34:36 There's a lot of war and and fighting in chimpanzees.

34:40 Bonobos are a society run by the females.

34:44 That's right.

34:45 And the way that they solve crimes is by making love to each other.

34:48 Mhm.

34:49 So, they have a society that the way they solve problems is through love.

34:53 And chimpanzees have a society that is Yeah.

34:56 much more anger and violence based.

34:58 We have always learned in school and in the West

35:01 we're told like chimpanzees are our closest relatives.

35:03 And most people have really not heard about bonobos.

35:05 Bonobos, yeah.

35:06 And her point was the idea that like that's natural,

35:09 that to hurt people and to fight is natural,

35:12 is actually no more natural than it is to love and be inclusive.

35:16 Right.

35:16 That's right.

35:17 But there's the narrative and the cultural

35:19 history of what we're told about that.

35:20 And I just cannot stop thinking about that since I learned that.

35:23 This idea that like there's no reason why we wouldn't learn that it's

35:27 actually just as natural to be a bonobo as than to be a chimpanzee.

35:30 Um I think that goes to some of the the assumptions

35:34 that that I think come out through prism.

35:36 That's right.

35:37 And you know, the science is showing

35:38 that actually it's more natural to be compassionate,

35:40 to be kind, to be forgiving.

35:42 But again, we've been socialized to be averse to those emotions.

35:47 And as a result, we block them in our own bodies,

35:49 which is causing us anxiety, stress, you know, depression,

35:53 suicidality because we haven't been trained

35:55 on how to really work with these emotions.

35:57 And you know, one of the beautiful quotes

35:59 that I love is nature permits, culture forbids.

36:02 Mhm.

36:04 So, our nature allows us to be in love with whomever we want.

36:07 It allows us to try new things,

36:10 but it's a culture that we build around it that forbids it.

36:13 And these are the narratives of stories

36:15 that we buy into that limit our own potential.

36:18 So, if you think about bias, it really operates at four levels,

36:20 at the internal level, the interpersonal level,

36:22 the institutional level, and then systemic levels.

36:25 And this is our work for the century To really break these biases.

36:29 Well, Anu, thank you so much for being here.

36:30 This was an absolute pleasure talking to you.

36:32 Thank you.

36:33 It's been an honor to be here.

36:45 Hi everyone.

36:46 I hope you enjoyed this episode of how to be a better human.

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