Krysten Ritter, Matthew Lillard, and Michael Gandolfini Talk Daredevil: Born Again Season 2

0:03 [music] Today on the official Marvel podcast,

0:09 we are joined by the cast of Marvel television's Daredevil Born Again season 2,

0:13 including Kristen Ritter, Michael Gandalfini, Matthew Lillard, and more.

0:18 [music] For Daniel, he's finally made a choice,

0:22 and I think that is a big big turning point for Daniel,

0:25 and I think that Buck ultimately sees that.

0:28 We'll also dive into Jessica Jones comics

0:30 with Marvel Comics editor Alana Smith as we

0:33 pick out five essential reads for anyone

0:35 looking for a quick introduction to Jessica Jones.

0:38 Yeah, she's married.

0:39 Yeah, she's a mom, but she's never going to be

0:41 a person who handles things the way you expect her to.

0:45 You know, Jessica Jones never loses her edge.

0:48 She's always going to be, you know, that girl.

0:50 [laughter] Like, that's just how she is.

0:52 I'm Victoria Yang.

0:54 I'm Evan Narcissus.

0:55 And this is the official Marvel podcast.

1:09 We're just one week away from the season

1:11 2 finale of Marvel television's Daredevil Born Again.

1:14 Victoria, what's going through your mind at this particular moment?

1:20 I mean, I'm still reeling from the end of the last episode.

1:23 I honestly can't believe what I just watched.

1:26 Uh, same here.

1:27 That twist was like nowhere on my bingo card for this season.

1:31 But overall, I think this season has been an absolute roller coaster, right?

1:35 The gloves are clearly off now.

1:38 But wow, between the finale next week

1:40 and the upcoming Marvel television special presentation,

1:43 The Punisher, One Last Kill, after that.

1:47 There's honestly never been a better time to be

1:49 a fan of the mean streets of Marvel.

1:51 Agreed.

1:51 And while Daredevil makes headlines with his brands of justice,

1:55 it's been the supporting cast who've had to deal

1:57 with so much of the fallout this season.

1:59 We recently caught up with some of those cast members.

2:01 And whether they played a bad guy or a love interest,

2:04 they've truly been the pulse of the series for sure.

2:07 And no one embodies that more than Karen Paige, played by Deborah Anne Wool.

2:12 She's a clear standout as the heart of the series.

2:15 Karen carries the weight of her actions differently than Daredevil

2:18 or even say Frank Castle aka the Punisher does in season 1.

2:22 Here's Deborah Anne Wall on why Karen is so important to the show this season.

2:26 I think one of Karen's superpowers is her empathy.

2:29 She can feel for a lot of different people and she

2:33 has an open mind and she's trying to be understanding.

2:35 I think as someone who feels that she's done

2:37 a lot of harm and caused a lot of hurt,

2:39 if Frank Castle is a monster, then she's a monster.

2:42 If Daredevil's a monster, then she's a monster.

2:44 Frankly, if Fisk and Bullseye are monsters, she's a monster.

2:47 So, there's a fight to understand who these other people are

2:51 and a fight to save as many innocent lives as possible.

2:54 Every life that gets lost because of their inaction,

2:59 Karen feels it's that trolley problem.

3:02 Do you let it hit you or do you let it hit a thousand people?

3:05 What is that choice?

3:06 And every single death she feels weighted on her shoulders

3:09 in a way that I'm not sure Matt Murdoch and Frank Castle do.

3:13 And I think in some ways that is what makes her the heart.

3:16 She reminds them that there's actual human cost to what's happening.

3:20 This isn't just a game of boys playing war.

3:23 And part of what I love about playing Karen Paige is that she is you and me.

3:28 She has no superpowers.

3:30 She has no sort of special skills or anything.

3:32 She's a regular person on the street who just cares enough and is willing

3:37 to be brave enough and put herself in harm's way to do the right thing.

3:41 And and I like that as a representation of those of us

3:44 who just feel hopeless and like we're we can't make a difference.

3:48 She's trying to make a difference.

3:50 But it's not just Karen's empathy that defines her.

3:52 Even without superpowers,

3:54 Deborah Anne brought Karen's bravery to new heights this season,

3:58 including stepping into the show's fighting sequences and stunts.

4:02 I love being really physical within roles.

4:04 I think, you know, I I've always been a plot action person.

4:09 I think we find out who people are by what

4:11 they do more clearly than by what they say.

4:14 So, anytime I can have action and agency,

4:16 whether that's actually fighting or just an active choice within a scene,

4:20 that's always more interesting to me.

4:22 And yeah, I love learning the fights.

4:25 I love getting the story that you can tell with how you do a fight.

4:28 You know, a lot of it is like because Karen was trained by Matt,

4:33 some of that cuz there's a level of street fighting,

4:36 but there's also just a level of like

4:39 anger and just destructiveness that comes out.

4:43 And so, they were like,

4:43 she she's taken on a little bit of that energy because that's who her mentor is.

4:48 The return of Kristen Ritter as Jessica Jones also

4:51 brought a new dynamic to set this time around,

4:53 especially for the cast members like Deborah Anne,

4:56 who last worked with Kristen during Marvel's The Defenders series.

4:59 I love Kristen so much and it feels

5:01 like the band getting back together, you know,

5:04 like we did all this work together and we

5:06 built something I think we were all really proud of.

5:08 I really didn't think I would see it again.

5:10 So to have everyone back together and have those old feelings

5:13 and find out where everyone's had so much life in between, you know,

5:17 like both Kristen and I have become actual mothers in that time between

5:21 wrapping that show and starting this one and uh you know that's a remarkable

5:25 new experience and a perspective that we bring and every experience you have

5:28 in life starts to give more gravitas and experience to what you're playing.

5:33 That evolution wasn't just behind the scenes.

5:35 In fact, for Kristen Ritter,

5:37 Jessica's story as a mother allowed her to bring

5:39 in a new dimension to her performance.

5:42 Here's Kristen.

5:43 Adding that incredible layer for Jessica Jones,

5:46 who's already so layered and so rich.

5:48 She has so much great backstory to pull from and to build.

5:53 And adding that element of conflict, of growth, of, you know,

6:00 a real healing opportunity for Jessica Jones um was very exciting to me.

6:04 I also love the idea of portraying a mom who

6:08 is Jessica Jones as she is and not mommy her.

6:13 And what does that look like?

6:15 What does it look like for somebody who's like had a really

6:17 rough go but still puts one foot in front of the other?

6:19 To have this opportunity to be a mom, to learn more about herself,

6:23 to put the focus on something else that she loves so deeply.

6:26 It adds this amazing element that is very exciting to me.

6:30 I'm a mom in real life and I'm a badass.

6:33 And I think it's a really exciting opportunity that, you know,

6:37 even moving forward could really shatter glass ceilings.

6:40 I think with how moms are shown like moms can be badasses,

6:43 they can be superheroes.

6:44 They can run a business and they can have

6:46 their kids at home and and really grow in that way.

6:50 Women want to see that.

6:51 They want to identify and see themselves on screen.

6:53 And there's a lot of badass moms out there.

6:55 There's so much to pull from when you have that additional element.

6:59 When you have your heart walking around outside of your body,

7:02 it's just a beautiful opportunity and I'm very excited about it.

7:05 For Kristen, motherhood offered a fresh perspective and even

7:08 influenced the way she approached every fight and action sequence.

7:12 For Jessica, her stunts and the physical stuff always comes from a place

7:16 of character and a place like totally rooted in real emotion,

7:20 which makes it even that much cooler in my opinion.

7:24 She's not just like fighting and kicking.

7:26 She's like coming at it with the full force

7:30 in this season knowing she's got a kid at home.

7:33 So, there's a viciousness and there's a ferocity, but there's also a caution.

7:36 But, she is she is thrown down this season.

7:39 We have a lot of exciting action sequences and they look fierce.

7:43 It is like sick nasty over here.

7:46 And of course, returning alongside Charlie Cox's

7:48 Daredevil made the reunion feel seamless for Kristen.

7:51 I absolutely adore him and I think he's one of the smartest,

7:55 most charismatic, special humans alive.

7:58 I absolutely adore him and I think when we are

8:01 in our characters and the our characters have such strong points of view,

8:05 we really bring out something in each other.

8:08 There is a banter there.

8:10 There is a sort of playfulness, a sarcasm with each other.

8:14 Jessica thinks he's like too serious choir boy.

8:18 He thinks Jessica is like too crass sometimes,

8:21 but they really work well together and we bounce off of each other.

8:25 And I think these are two characters that just

8:27 crackle when they're when they're together on screen.

8:30 So, I have found that like our scenes together totally crackle.

8:33 And our fight scenes have been so sick.

8:37 It just feels like no time has passed, but it also feels like a lifetime ago.

8:42 And we just kind of It's these characters are so in ourselves.

8:46 It was just like being on set with Charlie is like old hat.

8:50 It's like riding a bicycle.

8:51 It just is so natural.

8:54 But there are some new faces as well, including Mr.

8:57 Charles, played by Matthew Lillard.

8:59 Here's Kristen and what it was like to work directly with him.

9:02 So, I actually didn't know that I was working with Matthew.

9:05 And when I got to set, I was like, "Oh,

9:07 it's I I know you." And we had so much fun together.

9:11 He is a really funny fun performer.

9:15 and he's like that offscreen as well.

9:18 And so we were having fun going back and forth.

9:20 And then when we were not on set, we were when we were getting ready to shoot,

9:23 we were really connecting on a personal level as well.

9:26 And we were just like and I I really I really loved what he brought to it.

9:32 It's fun to see like when somebody has

9:34 such a specific tone themselves and he's got

9:38 such a specific comedy style to bring

9:40 that into this world and get to act opposite that.

9:43 We had a lot of fun with it.

9:44 It was like a ping-pong game or a tennis game.

9:46 While Matthew Lillard might be new to the world of Daredevil,

9:48 he is no stranger to the series showrunner Dario Scardane.

9:52 They previously worked together on FX's The Bridge.

9:55 We became good friends and then

9:57 we started playing Dungeons and Dragons together.

9:59 And so through Dn D, our friendship has grown over the last 15 years.

10:03 So when Daario approached Matthew about joining the MCU,

10:06 he jumped at the opportunity.

10:08 you know, he knows the actor I am in general

10:11 in the worlds we've worked together with him and I, you know,

10:14 they give me like a really great base to build off

10:19 of and they allow me in a lot of ways to sort of play.

10:22 Not every show out there likes to let an actor like me loose.

10:28 And Daario is like, "Man,

10:29 I want you to do you." Which to me means I want you to plus this up, have fun.

10:35 And sort of I think what the result of that is that Mr.

10:38 Charles becomes this character that has an energy base

10:42 all his own that's different than everything around him.

10:45 And I think that makes it super fun to play.

10:47 That creative freedom really comes through

10:48 in his performance, especially when Mr.

10:51 Charles faces off with Vincent Denafhrio's Wilson Fisk.

10:54 There's such a a yin-yang relationship between Mr.

10:56 Charles and Fisk because he has this base.

10:59 He has this stillness and this power.

11:01 And when you work across from him, you're like,

11:03 "Oh my god, it's intimidating." But when you approach the work,

11:06 especially work like this, you come

11:08 in with a really strong sense of what you want

11:10 to do and and how you're approaching it and your point of view as a character.

11:13 Every single time you sit across from a great actor

11:15 like Vincent or Charlie Cox or everyone else on the show,

11:18 you are given more information.

11:20 So, it's like playing music.

11:22 You know, you're a drum line,

11:24 but I'm going to come in and listen to what's playing around me.

11:27 And that is the best way to approach the work.

11:29 Like, there's a joy to it.

11:31 There's a freedom to it.

11:32 And there's a a really high elevation of quality work

11:36 that I think plays all the way through the season.

11:39 Which brings up the big question between Mr.

11:41 Charles and Wilson Fisk.

11:43 Who really has the upper hand?

11:44 And what brings these two powerful forces together?

11:48 Yeah.

11:48 Like every good CIA bad guy, he's a pawn in my game.

11:52 I am not a pawn in his.

11:53 And I do think that there's like this, you know,

11:56 there is a status conflict between the two of them.

11:58 Wilson Fisk runs the world and I he actually runs

12:02 a small part and I actually run the rest of it.

12:05 And as long as we are working in the same direction and mutually beneficial,

12:10 it's good for both of us.

12:12 When it goes bad, it really goes bad for both of us.

12:14 Trust me, it's never me.

12:16 It's always Fisk.

12:17 I have the purest of intentions as always,

12:20 but he's the one that's screwing the whole thing up.

12:23 And listen, he's going to have to pay a price.

12:25 Of course, the complexity of Wilson's

12:27 world wouldn't be complete without his wife,

12:29 Vanessa, who takes on an even more pivotal role this season.

12:33 Here's Ayellet Zurer,

12:35 who plays Vanessa on her character's journey and evolution.

12:38 I think Vanessa starts as a very intriguing funfatal I'd say maybe but without

12:49 the what we would use as as a what you would think Fatal is.

12:56 Her point of view is really interesting to me because she's like

13:00 she likes to play with the dark side but not particularly dark herself.

13:06 I think she was surrounded by people who are dark

13:11 and she has a tendency to be curious about it but she herself is not.

13:19 So when she meets Kingpin for the first

13:22 time she finds him intriguing more than anything else.

13:27 And I think slowly her inclination is

13:31 to be completely infatuated by his darkness.

13:36 It's like going to Africa and watching a lion eat, you know, a prey, right?

13:44 You are invested in the beauty of it,

13:46 but you have no need to go and run and and chase a deer.

13:51 You know, she's intrigued by the brutality of his character.

13:57 She's intrigued by the darkness and she finds it beautiful,

14:01 which is what makes her unique because

14:04 it's I've never seen a character like that.

14:06 She's really intrigued by it.

14:08 This season, Vanessa finds herself navigating even

14:10 more intense stakes and shifting power dynamics.

14:13 The changes weigh heavily on Vanessa as she

14:15 finds her place in this dangerous world.

14:18 this huge shift because it's it's now it's an emotion.

14:21 It's not even within the story.

14:23 It's a int introspective.

14:25 She realizes suddenly what she signed up for.

14:29 And I think the more he wants to succeed and the hungrier he gets,

14:36 the more dangerous things become.

14:38 And then she understands that she would

14:41 need to protect him somehow or protect herself.

14:46 and and that drives some fear.

14:48 Fear starts to sipping.

14:50 And when it came to Vanessa's untimely death,

14:52 I let says she understood why something this extreme

14:55 was really necessary to escalate Wilson Fisk's downfall.

14:59 They needed something so extreme to happen to him as a juaposition

15:05 also to you know what happened to Daredevil's um friend and so right.

15:11 So he lost someone foggy and because of me obviously.

15:17 So so there was a juxaposition you had to pay off that weight right there.

15:24 The weight has to shift back.

15:26 So um they explained that to me and I was really actually I was

15:29 really sad but it was really interesting because in a way I felt like

15:36 it's brilliant.

15:37 It's the best way to to you know it's

15:41 a nuclear bomb for him and it is also shocking because

15:45 people I think believe that oh Vanessa is stepping

15:48 into the kingpin arena and they got very very excited about that.

15:55 Um so the devastation will be double effect.

15:59 The character gets affected but also the audience in a way.

16:03 So I think there's a choice a wise uh choice and it was really really sad.

16:09 I mean the day there was two days

16:11 where it was really devastating for both of us.

16:14 One was you know the arena at the boxing arena where everything is happening

16:19 and it's beautifully shot and directed and just

16:25 so painful and then um it was devastating.

16:29 It was really, really painful.

16:31 And I think also from an artistic point of view,

16:33 the way they shot everything is really interestingly parallel

16:38 to the images of the first season of Daredevil.

16:42 The white rabbit and then the splash of blood goes back into the arena,

16:47 the boxing arena with the blood and the whiteness.

16:51 So, it all sort of ties in together.

16:54 Whether someone really planned it or not, it's really shockingly beautiful.

16:59 And when Wilson Fisk gets that news, it unlocks something in him,

17:03 allowing him to go full Kingpin, so to speak.

17:06 No one witnesses that transformation more up close than Daniel Blake,

17:10 played by Michael Gandalfini.

17:12 I mean, in that moment, that's when he becomes Kingpin.

17:15 That's when Kingpin really becomes Kingpin.

17:18 Vanessa is his humanity and so without her he is fully kingpinned now.

17:24 And you know I I think that Daniel, Sheila,

17:30 possibly Buck are aware of the fact that maybe even before that event,

17:37 you know, even Vanessa just dying, he might really be off the rails now.

17:41 So that that's acknowledged.

17:43 But [gasps] once he starts that, it's it's too far gone.

17:49 And I think they know that.

17:50 Everyone knows that Vanessa was one of his ears.

17:53 You know, Vanessa's half of Mayor Fisk's brain.

17:56 For Michael Gandalfini, getting to watch Vincent Denafhrio fully embody

18:01 this character was a true highlight this season.

18:04 He's unbelievable.

18:05 like the way he's crafted this character to every word to every

18:11 line to the vocal inflections to the way he says things, the twitches.

18:16 He's absolutely unbelievable.

18:19 But what makes him so unbelievable is that he's crafted all

18:22 these things and they never affect his performance on the day.

18:26 Sometimes those things can take actors out of it,

18:29 but at the end of the day, he's right there with you.

18:31 He's right there helping you.

18:32 He's right there reorganizing, re-shifting,

18:36 talking about scenes and ways to do it,

18:39 you know, that could help and just make you more connected.

18:42 And so, you just feel fundamentally like you're playing tennis with someone.

18:46 He just gives it right back and you give it right to him.

18:50 I've rarely had the um chemistry that I have with him.

18:53 It's just I I feel like I know where he's going and he always catches me

18:57 and he always throws it right back and he's just it's so fun working with him.

19:02 He's such a joy and he's just brilliant.

19:05 While Daniel Blake spent time working alongside Fisk,

19:08 Michael also spent a lot of the season developing

19:10 a complex dynamic with Arty Finan's character, Buck Cashman.

19:14 Here's Michael on how he and Arty worked together to craft that relationship.

19:18 It was amazing.

19:19 I mean, to start off like to just say, you know,

19:24 Arty is such a phenomenal actor and such a good

19:28 human and I enjoy working with him so much.

19:31 She's become a very close friend and I think he's just unbelievably talented

19:35 and sort of um he's an actor who acts in restraint which is really rare.

19:41 Like he he's so subtle in his performance

19:44 and getting to work with him is so fun.

19:46 Um and he he's hysterical.

19:48 He's one of the funniest people I know.

19:51 And so, you know, having season 1 was incredibly important because it

19:58 laid the foundation of Daniel's relationship

20:00 to Fisk and Buck's relationship to Fisk.

20:04 And so, you need to have all

20:06 of that context to understand their relationship in season 2

20:11 and why they do the things they do and how they feel about the things they feel.

20:15 And so, you know, in season two,

20:18 they begin to grow this sort of own relationship.

20:22 You know, Arty and I spoke a lot about

20:25 it and it is sort of like a brotherly relationship.

20:30 You know, if if Fisk's the mentor, Art is more of a brother,

20:35 a little more caring, a little more looking out for him.

20:38 Um maybe in even ways that he doesn't want to care about Daniel.

20:43 He does.

20:43 And Daniel really loves Buck.

20:46 He's not scared of Buck.

20:48 He's not afraid of him.

20:50 He can ask him anything and he sort of knows

20:53 how to push his buttons in a safe way.

20:56 But I think he still underestimates Buck.

20:58 And he underestimates Fisk ultimately.

21:01 And as we saw in the Pen Ultimate episode,

21:03 it all comes to a head when Daniel is confronted by Buck one last time.

21:08 Here's Michael on the stunt work he

21:09 did and the emotional intensity of that scene.

21:12 It's so fun to do these stunts like and these guys

21:16 are amazing and so you know you start with the emotional

21:20 dynamic of it which is he's like getting beat up

21:24 by by a brother type you know like and that that see

21:29 that's the thing that I find so interesting and fun about

21:32 Daniel is that people can have influence they can be evil

21:35 and they can be good without superpowers and Daniel's superpowers he

21:39 he knows people and he can get to people really well.

21:42 He can manipulate his way into these characters.

21:45 And so I think he knows that he has influence over Buck.

21:49 He knows that while Buck's incredibly dangerous, he cares about him.

21:54 So all of these emotional dynamics, including the other side,

21:58 which is Buck has held back for two seasons.

22:02 Basically, Buck has has entertained Daniel.

22:06 Daniel has lied to Buck's face time and time again.

22:10 And so Buck also has to let it out somehow.

22:13 And so it all comes to a head in this brutal beating,

22:16 you know, and I think that for Daniel, he's finally made a choice.

22:24 He's finally not playing both games, both sides.

22:28 And so while terrified, while scared,

22:34 he's finally come to a point where he's made an adult decision,

22:39 which is I'm ready to die or I'm ready for whatever.

22:44 I finally just made up my mind.

22:46 And I think that is a big big turning point for Daniel.

22:49 And I think that Buck ultimately sees that and it's why he lets him go.

22:54 And speaking of stunts, one of the most talked about action sequences

22:57 from this season was the diner scene featuring Bullseye, played by Wilson Bethl.

23:02 Here's how Bethl approached that iconic moment.

23:05 You know, in episode 4, Bullseye sort of has a fun sort of intro piece

23:11 to the episode that on both kind of a character level,

23:15 but also then just on a, you know, action and stunt level,

23:18 I think is one of my favorite things that I've

23:21 done um with the character and on the show.

23:23 and then setting it to the Billy Joel song.

23:26 It's just one of the coolest things I've ever done.

23:29 So, I'm I'm so excited that for people to see it, but I know for me personally,

23:32 I'm like, "Hell yeah." I mean, look, for me, like, I'm a very physical person.

23:38 One of the things that I love about this job is that I get to express

23:42 myself physically in this role in a way

23:45 that I've never really done before with other work.

23:47 And I'm constantly finding new ways to make

23:51 the physicality of Dex and of Bullseye a real

23:55 integral part of the performance and a real integral

23:58 part of you know the fun of the character.

24:02 So doing a scene like that there's just you know

24:04 there's in every scene and in every scene with him

24:06 there's always some little physical thing that I'm I

24:09 feel like I'm finding that continues to tell the story.

24:12 And you know, initially I I was really resistant to the full face mask,

24:16 but I will say that one of the things that having that full mask,

24:20 the like balaclava look has done is it's forced me to find other ways

24:26 of expressing the physicality and that's really

24:29 been really a challenge and really fun.

24:31 You know, it's it's all new cool stuff for Bethl.

24:34 Returning as Bullseye and being part of such a grounded

24:37 and gritty story within the MCU has been a true thrill.

24:41 Yeah.

24:41 I mean, it's a dream, man.

24:43 I love this job.

24:43 I love the people I work with.

24:45 I think this character is just sort of endlessly [snorts] fascinating to me.

24:49 And the fact of it being sort of as grounded as it is,

24:53 it just means that for me personally with this character,

24:57 it just feels like there's so much for me to to sort of hold on to.

25:00 I don't have to, I don't know, do like big imaginative arcs into what,

25:05 you know, growing up on another planet or something like that.

25:07 [laughter] Yeah.

25:08 I I love it, man.

25:09 I I have so much fun doing it.

25:11 You can experience the action of Marvel television's

25:14 Daredevil Born Again season 2 for yourself today,

25:17 streaming exclusively on Disney Plus.

25:21 [music] If you've been enjoying Jessica Jones's return in Daredevil:

25:29 Born Again season 2, you might be curious about her origins in Marvel comics.

25:34 Jessica Jones is actually a relatively new character by comic standards.

25:38 She was co-created by Brian Michael Bendis and Michael Gatos back in 2001,

25:42 debuting in Alias number one under Marvel's maturated Max imprint.

25:48 It wasn't until the end of that series

25:50 that Jessica became fully integrated with the wider Marvel universe,

25:53 interacting with more Marvel heroes like Spider-Man and the Avengers.

25:57 Since then, she's worked as a journalist,

25:59 become a mother, joined the Defenders, and so much more.

26:03 It can be a lot to keep up with.

26:05 Luckily, I got to sit down with Marvel Comics editor Alana Smith to discuss

26:09 some essential comics issues that highlight Jessica's

26:11 major milestones from her 25 year history.

26:15 Check it out.

26:20 I'm here with Alana Smith, editor of Marvel Comics,

26:24 because we're talking about the wonderful character of Jessica Jones.

26:28 So, let's go ahead and start with a little preface.

26:31 Jessica Jones's first appearance and most notable series is Alias from 2001.

26:36 Because it was published under Marvel's Mature Max imprint,

26:39 it was meant for mature readers.

26:41 We'll mention Alias here,

26:42 but we'll mostly be focusing on a few different titles after that series.

26:47 [snorts] Let's start off with The Pulse number 13,

26:49 which was written by Brian Michael Bendis with art by Michael Gados.

26:53 In Alias, she was kind of an outlier,

26:55 a fringe character in relation to the Marvel universe, right?

26:59 The Pulse brings her closer back to mainstream superhero activities.

27:04 She's working as a investigative journalist for the Daily Bugle.

27:08 And throughout the series, Jessica's like pregnant with Luke Cage's baby.

27:12 Luke Cage and her had been dating for a while.

27:15 Alana, let's talk about Jessica's status quo

27:18 within the Marvel universe at this point.

27:20 Well, I think it's a really fun snapshot in time because this is around

27:24 the new Avengers era where Luke Cage was a main member of the Avengers team.

27:29 And because of that, Jessica has kind of been vaulted into this celebrity

27:33 couple status that for someone like her is just never very welcome.

27:38 Like, she's really not created to be out in public as like a public figure.

27:43 And in The Pulse 13 is when it's finally time for her to give birth.

27:48 Everyone is there for the delivery in their superhero outfits,

27:52 which is I find really delightful.

27:54 Like um Captain Marvel, but at this point is M.

27:56 Marvel, who's her best friend, is like at her bedside in full costume.

28:00 At one point, Captain America has to go

28:02 outside and like kind of shoe reporters away cuz

28:04 this is a big to-do because this is

28:06 the Avengers team at the time and this is like,

28:08 you know, Avengers baby being born.

28:11 Yeah.

28:11 The thing I like about this story is the whole baby thing.

28:14 It is so reminiscent of an era.

28:17 I'm a former magazine journalist and I

28:19 just remember like you know wedding announcements,

28:22 birth announcements being big deal in celebrity journalism and it's like

28:26 would this woman really want to be a party to that?

28:29 So I just thought it was really funny.

28:31 Yeah.

28:31 Yeah.

28:32 Well, and I think too like her whole

28:34 relationship with Luke is really like interesting

28:36 cuz they really started off as just like kind of a hookup a little bit.

28:40 Yes.

28:40 And then, you know, that kind of started to turn to feelings.

28:44 I think around the same time, suddenly there's a baby on the way.

28:47 So, like they do really deeply love each other,

28:49 but they kind of fell into it in their own unconventional way,

28:54 which is very Jessica that she didn't do things

28:56 in a linear fashion like like many people do.

28:59 And so, I think a lot of it is just like she's in love

29:03 with someone who is so deeply different

29:05 from her and kind of more idealistic and confident.

29:08 And I think that's what she likes about him.

29:10 But it also means, you know, it's the life she chose,

29:12 but really it's the partner she chose more than she chose the life.

29:16 Yeah.

29:16 And before we leave this issue, of course, Jessica gives birth to a baby girl.

29:21 Not named in this issue, but eventually will be named as Danielle

29:24 Cage in New Avengers number 34 from 2007.

29:29 And at the end of this issue, Luke proposes to Jessica,

29:32 which again is like their whole relationship

29:34 is like happening kind of out of order,

29:37 but the path to them being a long-standing

29:40 couple in the Marvel Comics universe really starts here.

29:43 Next up, we have New Avengers Annual number one from 2006,

29:47 written by Brian Michael Bendis with art by Olivia Cipel.

29:50 Alana, how does this progress Jessica's evolution as a character?

29:55 I mean, I think one thing I really love is

29:57 you can see maybe why she hasn't resisted this Avengers life

30:01 so hard because she's just given birth and she goes

30:03 back to Avengers Tower and she's just surrounded by, you know,

30:08 like kind of family.

30:09 Like it's it's all these people who really care about her and, you know,

30:13 want to hold the baby and want to make sure she's doing okay.

30:16 And so finally in this quiet moment when

30:20 the rest of the crowd is kind of elsewhere,

30:22 she just says yes out of the blue and Luke's kind of like what?

30:26 And she's like, "Yeah, I'll marry you." And he gets this adorable smile,

30:31 literally stars in his eyes.

30:32 And like it's a very sweet, vulnerable moment between them.

30:36 And then of course Luke immediately announces it

30:38 to the room [laughter] cuz he's so excited.

30:41 [gasps] And he also says he announced it so she

30:44 can't like back out later and pretend she didn't say it.

30:48 Yeah, [laughter] he's pulling a no back seats all day.

30:50 And she's like, "I wouldn't do that." And he's like,

30:51 "Yes, you would." And she's like, "Yeah,

30:52 I would." So it's I think it's like a point of her kind of starting

30:55 to become more honest with herself and more

30:58 open with Luke and open with her community, which is really sweet.

31:01 Yeah.

31:01 And you know, there's like a lot of obviously punching and explosions,

31:05 but also a lot of heartfelt declarations.

31:08 One of which like happens during the marriage

31:10 ceremony when Jessica interrupts their own wedding

31:14 ceremony and delivers this really heartfilled monologue talking

31:18 about her devotion to Luke and their baby girl which again like up until

31:23 this point she really hasn't expressed her emotions

31:25 that clearly and for it to happen here I think is a really really sweet moment.

31:30 Yeah.

31:30 Yeah.

31:30 And especially like, you know,

31:32 Jessica's had such an atypical Marvel hero experience.

31:36 Like for her to also, you know,

31:38 kind of meet the wedding on her own terms is really cool.

31:42 But, you know, this is a superhero wedding,

31:44 which means living happily ever after maybe,

31:49 which is a great segue to Jessica Jones number one from 2006,

31:55 written again by Brian Michael Bendis with art by Michael Gatos.

32:00 And the beginning of the series starts

32:02 with Jessica finding herself arrested and imprisoned,

32:06 isolated from her husband, Luke Cage, and her daughter Danielle.

32:11 And it kind of leaves the reader in a place of what happened.

32:15 Alana, talk to me about like this big status quo shift.

32:20 What do you think it means for Jessica and Luke and her character

32:24 standing in a Marvel universe and how

32:27 it reinforces certain aspects of her character?

32:29 Sure.

32:29 I can actually speak to this one a little

32:31 more knowledgeably cuz I worked on this one.

32:34 But as some background, this was, I believe, right after Secret Wars.

32:38 And what we did coming out of Secret Wars, which was when we,

32:40 you know, blew up the Marvel universe and reassembled it,

32:43 is that a bunch of the series that started up after that had this 8-month gap,

32:48 like in which something wild happened.

32:51 Like, we don't always find out right away.

32:52 Like, a bunch of these series had different things where it's like,

32:55 I think Deadpool was famous all of a sudden and like

32:58 Peter Parker's running a big fancy tech company.

33:01 Yeah.

33:01 Exactly.

33:02 So, a lot of stuff happened in those 8 months.

33:04 And so, the idea was like clearly something

33:09 really wild went down in those 8 months.

33:11 And she's seeming to avoid like everyone she knows.

33:16 But then, you know, by the end of it,

33:18 as she's doing a stakeout, gets ambushed by Luke, who's like,

33:22 "Hey, where's our daughter?" So, any question that they like weren't talking

33:25 about Danielle before is gone at that point.

33:28 And it's kind of like, what on earth happened?

33:31 like is the baby okay?

33:33 Is it a victim of the world reunification?

33:34 It just raises a lot of questions.

33:36 And I think, you know, for Jessica personally,

33:39 it's just a return to like, yeah, she's married.

33:42 Yeah, she's a mom, but she's she's never going to be

33:45 a person who handles things the way you expect her to.

33:50 She's kind of regressing to this point where she's isolating and trying

33:53 to solve everything on her own and not rely on her people.

33:56 So, you know, as this as the series goes on, that kind of develops.

34:00 I don't want to spoil it, you know, too much for people who haven't read it,

34:03 but I I think it speaks to that thing of like,

34:05 you know, Jessica Jones never loses her edge.

34:07 She's always going to be, you know, that girl like that's just how she is.

34:12 Yeah.

34:12 One of the things about this series that gives it so much dramatic tension is,

34:17 like you said, this omnipresent threat that she

34:21 could backslide into really self-destructive behaviors, right?

34:25 Mhm.

34:25 Mhm.

34:26 The Jessica we meet in Alias is like drowning in self-loathing, right?

34:31 Yeah.

34:31 Yeah.

34:32 And her relationship with Luke and, you know,

34:35 the bonds she forms with the greater superhero community like function

34:40 as a signal that she's getting better and working on herself, right?

34:45 And then this eight-month gap happens and you're like, "Oh, dang.

34:49 Did she really start being terrible to herself again with some

34:53 really bad consequences?" And that's the thing that really keeps you reading.

34:56 Yeah.

34:56 Yeah, for sure.

34:58 Next up in our discussion, Defenders number one from 2017,

35:03 written by Brian Michael Bendis with art by David Marquez.

35:07 This one's really fun because it has a whole team dynamic,

35:12 which Jessica doesn't really mess with, right?

35:15 But we've got the characters of Luke Cage, Daredevil,

35:17 Iron Fist, and Jessica Jones facing off against the villain Diamondback.

35:22 Alana, can you talk about this series, how it plays out,

35:27 and what dynamic it kind of sits Jessica inside of as far

35:31 as like a being a team member, but also not?

35:34 Yeah, I actually worked on this one, too.

35:35 I'm very excited to talk about it.

35:37 So, this is probably the closest Jessica has come to being

35:41 in a more superhero role as she's in this ensemble.

35:47 like she still kind of does things her own way,

35:50 but it's more like like this is their thing together.

35:53 She's on the same level.

35:54 These are her peers a little more.

35:56 But yeah, so by the end of it,

35:58 after they are dealing with all this diamond back stuff,

36:02 it kind of occurs to them that like, okay,

36:04 we're the ones that have to deal with this, so we're going to actually

36:07 be a team this time and work together to figure out what's going on.

36:12 I do want to mention too before I forget really fun

36:15 thing about this issue is that it ends with a pulse interview.

36:19 We return to the pulse and Bendis wrote in newspaper format

36:25 an interview with Luke Cage like in the pulse and it's really fun.

36:29 Okay, next up we have Jessica Jones blind spot

36:32 from 2018 written by Kelly Thompson with art by Mattea Dulis.

36:37 At this point in her life things are going pretty well.

36:40 She's backed at being a private investigator with her own firm.

36:44 The Purple Man, who's her one-time abuser and archeneemy, gone, disappeared.

36:49 And her relationship with Luke Cage

36:51 and their daughter Danielle, also going great.

36:55 But in Jessica Jones's life, the pastor is never too far away.

36:59 There's obviously going to be a lot of drama coming from that.

37:01 The issue opens with Jessica Jones tied to a chair in with metal

37:05 chains and somebody's dressed her up in Carol Danver's old Mis Marvel costume.

37:10 After this kind of really dramatic opening with Jessica being tied up,

37:14 we do a little flashback and we see Jessica's with Luke

37:17 and Danielle walking around in a park in Hell's Kitchen.

37:20 And again, it's the kind of thing

37:22 that we've seen Jessica struggle to accept before, right?

37:26 Where she's like, "Hey, this is a nice normal day." and she

37:30 recognizes that the previous versions of herself

37:33 would have had a hard time accepting

37:35 that kind of normaly and happiness in her life.

37:40 Can you talk about like how important that is

37:42 to where Jessica is in her career at this point?

37:45 Alana?

37:46 Yeah, I mean I think like as a little

37:47 bit of background after Bendis and Gatos left the book,

37:51 Bendis actually suggested having Kelly Thompson

37:53 who's the writer of this take over.

37:55 So, a lot of this series was us trying to figure

37:58 out like what does Alias look like after Bendis and Gatos?

38:03 And a lot of it was we want to be true to the heart of it,

38:05 but we don't want to do exactly the same thing.

38:07 We want this to feel new and unexpected.

38:11 And so, I think positioning her in that way is

38:14 in keeping with that theme where like she's got her life together,

38:18 but what does it look like to tell a Jessica

38:21 story when she's kind of in an okay place?

38:23 like how does her life become complicated?

38:26 How are the stakes raised by her having a comfortable life?

38:31 Like and that's so much more to lose if something goes wrong.

38:35 So, she's trying to tell herself in this opening sequence that she

38:39 is beyond that that mentality that if she's happy, it'll disappear.

38:45 And then as she's trying to like really internalize that, she

38:48 walks into her office and there's a dead body on her floor.

38:51 So, like perhaps Jessica Jones will never truly find peace,

38:55 at least not for very long.

38:57 It's never going to be easy for our girl Jessica,

38:59 [laughter] which I think is like again part of the core of the character, right?

39:03 Yeah.

39:03 And I think I think something that's really like brave

39:05 and laudable about her is she doesn't have to be a PI.

39:08 Like she doesn't have to be skulking through the drags

39:11 of society and and it clearly is very hard on her.

39:14 Like it's not an easy life, but she cares enough to keep doing it.

39:19 Like I don't think it's it's about

39:22 glory for her or about intellectual satisfaction.

39:25 I think she really feels like this is how she can help people.

39:27 She couldn't help people as a superhero,

39:29 but she still has that drive to like find her way to make an impact for people

39:35 and you know pays for it like every time she does it but still goes back in.

39:40 I think that's very very heroic in its way.

39:42 Awesome.

39:42 Well, thank you so much for joining

39:45 us and going through Jessica Jones's publishing history.

39:53 [music] The second season finale of Marvel

39:55 television's Daredevil Born Again is next week.

39:58 And if you're anything like me, you might be feeling a bit impatient.

40:02 Or maybe you're suddenly realizing your weekly fix

40:05 of The Man Without Fear is coming to an end.

40:08 If either or both sound familiar, don't worry.

40:11 There are decades of Daredevil stories just waiting for you in the comics.

40:15 Whether you're interested in Matt

40:16 Burdo's extensive rogues gallery, romantic history,

40:19 or even his most iconic teamups,

40:22 there's truly something for everyone, and I get it.

40:25 Figuring out where to start isn't always the easiest.

40:28 Luckily, former Daredevil writer Charles Soul has some

40:31 perfect recommendations to help you dive into Daredevil comics.

40:34 This may or may not come as a surprise to anybody

40:36 who has followed the work that I've done at Marvel Comics,

40:38 but I'm a big Daredevil reader.

40:40 Really a huge fan of basically all the runs on that character.

40:43 Really any Daredevil run is worth your time.

40:46 Going all the way back to to Stan Lee,

40:48 but then moving forward, Frank Miller, Brian Michael Bendis, Ed Brew Baker.

40:53 I mean, just it goes on and on and on.

40:55 And I recently went through Chip Sodarski's

40:57 great run on the title with Marco Ketto.

40:59 So, I can recommend that without reservation.

41:02 It picks up pretty much directly from mine.

41:04 Uh, but Daredevil is is always a good read.

41:06 Charles is right.

41:07 Any Daredevil is good Daredevil.

41:09 But if you're still unsure where to begin,

41:11 you can find multiple reading guides covering Daredevil,

41:14 Wilson Fisk, Foggy Nelson, and more favorites at marvel.com/comics/guides.

41:17 [music] Next week on the official [music] Marvel podcast,

41:30 we're joined by Daredevil born again showrunner Dario Scardapan.

41:35 Every one of the characters from Matt and Wilson all the way through the cast,

41:39 everybody has to pick a side.

41:40 Everybody has to make a decision.

41:42 Everybody has to kind of pick aside and deal with the consequences thereof.

41:47 Until then, make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen.

41:50 And hey, why not drop a comment or give us those five stars.

41:54 This episode of the official Marvel podcast was

41:56 hosted by Victoria Ying and me, Evan Narcissus.

42:00 Our producers are Jasmine Estrada and Anita Flores.

42:03 Brad Barton is our senior manager of audio production

42:05 and development and our production manager is Emily Godfrey mixed by Emma Mer.

42:10 Our theme music is by Ida Akbal.

42:13 Executive produced by Lissa Rosen.

42:15 Thanks for listening everyone.