You're Using Tabs Wrong
WVFRM Podcast
0:00 No more doc for me.
0:01 Wow, it's committing to it.
0:03 I'm committing.
0:03 I like that.
0:04 I don't click on those things.
0:05 I just I just do command space.
0:07 I'm going to do that, too.
0:08 I'm going to hide my doc.
0:09 Is this something we can all agree on?
0:10 Cuz I'm a Raycast
0:11 going to say I can't.
0:13 The real end to this whole debate is everyone has
0:15 way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want.
0:18 Not man.
0:18 Well Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked Arc in the first place cuz
0:21 I have way [laughter] too many tabs open and it closes them for me.
0:24 want Arc, you want an AI browser of Atlassian.
0:30 [laughter] [music] Yo, what is up, people of the internet?
0:35 Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform podcast.
0:37 We're your hosts.
0:38 I'm Marques.
0:38 I'm Andrew.
0:39 And I'm David.
0:40 This week we've got NASA coming back from the moon sick,
0:43 uh Chrome adding vertical tabs,
0:45 uh which we can talk about if they're actually better
0:48 Or not.
0:50 uh Samsung Messages shutting down, Anthropic Project Glass Wing,
0:53 and how ANC headphones is causing potential safety issues,
0:56 and how a car company's trying to fix that.
0:58 And we'll end it all with Andrew's Whoop rant An update
1:03 part deux.
1:04 part I also put "and" like four times in there,
1:06 so it just sounded like you did a really run-on sentence.
1:08 That's my fault.
1:09 Hey, it's the intro.
1:10 It's got to be a run-on.
1:12 Uh but first, did they even test this?
1:14 I have a really fast one.
1:16 Yeah.
1:15 No one's on Pixel right now, right?
1:17 So none of you have experienced this.
1:19 The new flashlight to greener pastures.
1:22 Nah.
1:22 [laughter]
1:24 Nah.
1:23 Mine's greener.
1:24 Mine's greener, for sure.
1:26 It's or yellower.
1:27 Um the new flashlight quick setting is driving me insane.
1:31 Um this only happens in Google quick settings and only if
1:35 it is the two by the two by one tile with Hyper specific.
1:40 So pressing the button,
1:42 if you press just the little tiny circle of the flashlight icon,
1:45 it turns the flashlight on.
1:46 But if you press the whole thing, the setting comes up,
1:49 which is flashlight strength, which I think is a good setting.
1:52 And it turned on.
1:53 It turns it on, but then you press you can
1:55 either press turn off or done and it stays on.
1:58 I think the more specific uh adjustments should be the little
2:04 button and the big button should just be on and off.
2:07 This every time I turn this on, I get a menu setting and I hate it.
2:11 And I think if you want to be specific,
2:13 that should be the smaller touch real estate.
2:17 Okay.
2:18 Thank you.
2:18 I wonder if anyone else is having because everyone I've asked
2:20 to test this presses the little button and I'm like, am I insane?
2:25 Regardless, like a bigger touch target should be the more common use.
2:27 The more general thing, right?
2:28 Yeah.
2:29 Okay.
2:29 Thank That reminds me of okay, one on the dynamic island on the iPhone.
2:32 I think I said this in the review.
2:34 Are you back on the air?
2:36 I'm on the air.
2:37 Why?
2:38 I'm using another camera phone with like an incredible camera,
2:41 so I was like, let me try to use the air with it.
2:42 That was a fair question.
2:43 You sounded a little offended by me asking.
2:45 Oh, no, no.
2:45 Yeah.
2:46 I mean, I think that was a totally fair question.
2:47 This is the first time I've stuck to the air for more than 2 days.
2:50 I want to try the air, but I don't want to spend $1,000 to try the air.
2:53 Yeah.
2:53 Yeah.
2:54 Uh it's the only black phone sell.
2:55 So.
2:58 [laughter]
2:57 Uh so, uh the dynamic island when you're playing media,
3:00 you can either long press it,
3:01 which brings up the little pop-up,
3:03 or you can tap it, which brings up the whole app.
3:05 I think I felt since the beginning that that should be the other way around.
3:09 I should tap it to show the controls or I
3:10 should long press it to dive in to the app.
3:13 I Yeah, that sounds exactly the same.
3:16 It's Yeah.
3:17 The the things that can happen accidentally
3:19 should be the less annoying things that happen.
3:22 Yes.
3:23 So, like tapping both of those should
3:24 just be the really quick thing that happens.
3:26 Where the in more intentional version of it should be the more Yeah, dive in.
3:31 Yeah.
3:32 Kind of related to that, uh you know how
3:34 pulling down on the iPhone on the left brings
3:37 up like one menu setting and bringing down the one
3:39 on the right brings up the the quick settings.
3:41 left is notifications on the right is quick settings, yeah.
3:43 Yeah, that's annoying.
3:45 Because to get to notifications is really hard, especially on the Max.
3:48 Like I can almost never do do Um and it
3:51 makes sense to want to get to quick settings like quicker,
3:53 but I can almost never get to the
3:55 What do you think you go into more, settings or notifications?
3:59 Quick settings, because if I want to do notifications,
4:00 I just lock my phone and then swipe up.
4:03 Oh, that's interesting.
4:04 That's honey.
4:04 That is faster.
4:05 Yeah, that's actually my tick.
4:07 [laughter]
4:07 Lock, swipe up.
4:08 Yeah, when I'm like anxious,
4:09 I don't know what to do and I'm just like kind of unlocking my phone.
4:11 I'm like, notification, notification.
4:13 Your unlock number must be crazy high at the end of the day.
4:16 Yeah.
4:16 Do they track that?
4:17 They probably do.
4:19 Oh.
4:18 We should all look at our screen time.
4:20 track it.
4:20 You can see it.
4:21 I didn't know that.
4:22 Digital well-being or I forget what it's called on iPhone.
4:24 Is that on Android?
4:25 same thing.
4:26 It's called the same thing, digital well-being?
4:28 Uh, oh, on oh.
4:29 No, it's called like
4:30 Screen time.
4:31 Screen time health, yes.
4:33 Yeah.
4:32 Which by the way, I looked at my screen time this week and it was not good.
4:36 I was monitoring the situation.
4:39 Are you on iPhone?
4:41 Yeah.
4:40 Did you turn off joint device screen time?
4:43 Cuz by default, it sums every device that's signed into your iCloud account.
4:47 Oh, really?
4:48 Yeah, I used to be like, how do I have 18 hours of screen time?
4:50 And then I realized, oh, it has my entire work day of
4:55 Oh.
4:54 Which and I usually have my devices maybe they press on
4:57 doesn't actually track if you're looking at it.
4:59 No.
4:59 So, if if you have like, um, jolt of caffeine or something on it,
5:03 like, at you can have 24 hours of screen time.
5:07 Oh, wow.
5:07 Okay.
5:08 That's good to know.
5:09 maybe they I turned it This was like as of a year and a half ago.
5:13 Mhm.
5:12 Yeah.
5:13 Anyway, that was a good one, Andrew.
5:14 I I agree with you that the bigger
5:16 touch target should be the more commonly used case.
5:19 can quickly
5:20 I'll butt in.
5:20 be the
5:22 [laughter]
5:22 So, I'll butt in for a Yeah, you just agreed with me.
5:25 Don't butt in this.
5:26 I feel like the reason why the more complicated thing is the tap is
5:31 because they measure time it takes to do
5:34 something and that's what they're optimizing for.
5:37 I'll fully admit that the reason they did that is
5:39 probably based on the literal statistics that they have
5:44 Yeah.
5:43 on the phone.
5:44 I just think those stats are wrong.
5:46 Yeah, but feelings don't care about your facts, Andrew.
5:49 [laughter] Come on.
5:50 All right.
5:51 Let's talk about it.
5:52 Let's talk about this week.
5:54 Rockets.
5:54 NASA sent people around the moon.
5:58 Around the moon.
6:00 Is the moon a planet, Andrew?
6:02 It's very specifically worded.
6:03 There are so many interesting things about this, and I just
6:05 figured we could just pop through some of the most fascinating ones.
6:08 First of all, the Artemis 2 mission is what it's called.
6:12 These four astronauts went They launched They slingshot around Earth.
6:18 They then flew a quarter million miles to the moon,
6:22 slingshot around the dark side of the moon, and then came back to Earth.
6:26 And I think by the time you listen to this on Friday,
6:27 that's when they splashed down in the ocean.
6:29 So, like a week-long mission and about uh
6:33 45 minutes of that was spent behind the moon,
6:35 which is the farthest any humans have ever been from Earth.
6:38 Pretty sick.
6:38 So cool.
6:40 Yeah.
6:39 Um they took some incredible photos from back there,
6:42 and they also sent them back to Earth for us
6:44 to look at before they even got back here.
6:46 And the photos are incredible.
6:47 They're so sick.
6:48 And I have so many thoughts.
6:49 Okay, first thing we started seeing is uh this is one of the This is like
6:52 I guess the first mission where the astronauts
6:54 were allowed to bring personal devices into space,
6:58 meaning their iPhones and Android phones.
7:00 And so, we did get images from their smartphones as well sent back.
7:04 And that's awesome.
7:06 That's really interesting.
7:07 Probably some of the best moon photos any phone
7:09 has ever taken cuz they're super close to it.
7:12 We all like to think we can take moon photos from our phone.
7:15 Earth photo was the one that was popping off on Twitter.
7:18 Yeah, so
7:19 very funny at all.
7:20 They looked great.
7:21 They They took photos out the window of their space shuttle,
7:27 and you could see like Earthrise as they got further and further from Earth,
7:30 the Earth got smaller and smaller,
7:31 and then they got closer and closer to the moon,
7:33 and the moon got bigger and bigger until they like slingshot around the moon.
7:36 I had to Google this.
7:37 They went within like 5,000 miles
7:38 of the moon surface to do that gravity slingshot.
7:41 So, they were really close.
7:43 I mean, in the scale In the scale of of the universe.
7:47 Like,
7:49 [laughter] they went 250,000 mi and then they got within 5,000 mi of the moon.
7:52 I think that's pretty cool.
7:53 Compared to the biggest possible thing we can measure, they were pretty close.
7:56 Yeah.
7:56 Yeah, it was pretty it was pretty interesting.
7:58 Does anyone have any thoughts on the shot
7:59 on iPhone photos that we got from Artemis?
8:02 I thought they were pretty cool.
8:03 I have some thoughts.
8:04 I thought they might end up as a billboard
8:07 pretty quickly.
8:08 Yeah.
8:09 Some people had just takes against that.
8:11 They were like, let it just let it just happen organically and
8:15 it's fine if it's never a billboard.
8:16 But, also missed opportunity from Samsung cuz Samsung got
8:19 Well, Well, I saw some funny memes.
8:21 Cuz you know the photos where they took the photo
8:23 of the moon in the foreground and then Earth was in the background,
8:25 which is like the opposite of what we usually see.
8:28 Yeah.
8:27 There was a really funny meme where like the moon
8:29 was in the foreground and then the background was a moon.
8:32 It said shot on iPhone.
8:33 I mean, shot on Samsung.
8:34 Oh, Samsung.
8:35 Yeah.
8:35 I was like
8:36 I saw a bunch of those like if Samsung took this.
8:38 I saw people complaining like
8:40 Wow, it's a real shame they didn't use a Samsung
8:43 for this photo with a zoom and it's like you're in space.
8:45 You're literally on the moon.
8:47 Why do you need You don't need the zoom.
8:49 You're in space.
8:50 This is literally the opposite.
8:51 Also, there's the iPhone selfie camera.
8:53 Where was the really good selfie camera?
8:55 Yeah, I mean, okay.
8:56 I might get canceled for this.
8:58 Do it.
8:58 But, I maybe not.
8:59 I'm just kidding.
9:01 No, I I just don't think it's people are like, wow,
9:03 it's insane that this is the selfie camera and I was like Well, yeah.
9:07 You can If you took Yeah, it is cool.
9:09 But, it's like yeah, it's the selfie camera.
9:11 I mean, you can do photos with the selfie camera.
9:14 Like, what's what's so insane about that?
9:17 I guess it's like I think more so is that this photo
9:20 itself is incredible because it's Earth and we just don't see it.
9:23 It really has nothing to do with the camera.
9:25 Any phone could have basically taken
9:27 It's just the perspective.
9:29 It's not even so much about the phone that's taking it.
9:31 It's that we have all these like when you open
9:33 your phone camera roll and you see the photos you took
9:36 and that's your perspective from the last couple days and you
9:39 know what a photo from your phone usually looks like.
9:42 Yeah.
9:42 It's just crazy to think that their camera roll,
9:45 they open it up and it's a photo looking down on Earth from 250,000 miles
9:50 away and like a a shot of the moon which is somehow right next to them.
9:55 Like that's just such a crazy thing to imagine.
9:59 Yeah.
9:58 And it I it kind of I don't know,
10:00 humanizes it or like puts it into perspective for us to appreciate
10:03 that that's really how it looks to them sitting looking out that window.
10:07 Yeah, pretty crazy stuff.
10:08 It'll be funny in like 20 years when they're
10:10 scrolling really far back in their gallery one day and Memories.
10:14 Oh, [laughter] oh yeah.
10:16 Yes.
10:16 Six years ago just like
10:18 Six years ago today.
10:19 Yeah, what is the AI going to say?
10:22 [laughter]
10:21 Like it'll it'll show you your like your lunch
10:23 or your dog and it'll be like you on the moon.
10:25 Does it know that they were on the moon?
10:27 Like what is it going to say?
10:28 You know how you can track your location
10:29 in Google Maps like going back all the way.
10:31 I wonder what happened to them.
10:33 Find My Friends Find
10:36 is like where did you go?
10:38 Yeah.
10:39 Yeah.
10:39 Yeah, what you have people's pins on Find My.
10:41 Where do you think those pins went?
10:43 Oh, that's off the grid, literally.
10:47 Yeah.
10:46 Can I do a little camera breakdown of all the cameras they used on this trip?
10:50 Okay.
10:51 So a lot of people were confused why they were using the Nikon D5,
10:54 which is a camera that came out in 2016.
10:57 And uh I've been screaming about this for years
10:59 and this is actually like finally starting to get better.
11:02 So the reason they use the Nikon D5 is because of the very large pixel pitch.
11:05 That's the size of the the pixel on the sensor.
11:08 If you have a bigger pixel pitch, you get more light port per pixel
11:11 which means lower noise and for space photography,
11:14 that's very important because most of the background is black.
11:17 Yeah, not a lot of light.
11:19 Yeah.
11:19 of Some people were asking what did she do the Hasselblad?
11:20 The Hasselblad is a 100 megapixel 100 Each one of those pixels is tiny.
11:24 Very tiny.
11:27 Yeah.
11:25 Yeah, so 6.4 is very big and like 10 years
11:29 ago it was more common to have a bigger pixel.
11:30 It's only 20 megapixel camera, you know, which is fine.
11:33 Like that's still a lot of resolution for like if you
11:36 want to use it as a desktop wallpaper or something like that.
11:38 It looks very DSLR-y.
11:40 They did also use a Nikon Z9,
11:42 which is Nikon's like flagship camera that's out right now.
11:46 That has a pixel pitch of 4.35 micrometers, so it's a little bit smaller.
11:50 Still very good.
11:51 45.7 megapixels.
11:52 Obviously, they're going to want to be able
11:53 to zoom in on some of these pictures.
11:57 Yes.
11:56 They used a GoPro Hero 4 Black, which I saw some really
12:00 cool photos of for that an Instagram post.
12:03 Yeah, in the Instagram post.
12:06 Yep.
12:05 It's like 7 or 8 years old at this point.
12:08 We're on Hero 11 or 12 or something, I think.
12:11 Yeah, I was kind of curious why they did that.
12:12 It might have been a similar thing with a bigger pixel pitch.
12:15 I didn't actually look at what that pixel pitch was.
12:17 what happens is these programs take so many
12:21 years to build that they're not using typically state-of-the-art.
12:24 Like when they build this this Artemis 2 thing,
12:27 they're they're using the 2019 20 20 cameras when they start building it.
12:31 So even though there's newer cameras available today,
12:34 that's the stuff that they started with when
12:36 like that would be the easiest thing to just switch out though, you know.
12:39 They're probably similar resolution,
12:41 but like computers and and dimensions and stuff,
12:43 they just lock that stuff in.
12:45 It's it's the same reason like the software
12:46 used to record the podcast is stuff called WildTracks,
12:49 and like we're generally like six or seven versions
12:52 behind the most recent version because like God forbid,
12:57 you know, like we just can't validate every single aspect of that.
13:02 Yeah.
13:01 If we use one too many threads
13:03 and it interacts with the lighting software weirdly,
13:05 it crashes and we lose an episode.
13:06 I'd much rather miss a few features and know it works, you know.
13:11 test in production.
13:11 And that's on a podcast.
13:12 Like picture it in space.
13:16 [laughter]
13:16 Yes.
13:16 There's no Best Buy in space.
13:18 If anything, GoPro really should have done
13:21 the marketing campaign cuz they're like a dying company.
13:24 more up there.
13:24 I I if they're allowed yet.
13:27 I saw someone say because NASA's like government-funded and everything.
13:31 You would have to reach out to the individual
13:33 astronaut and ask them for their permission.
13:35 It's already on their Instagram, but
13:37 There was a lot of misinformation online.
13:39 People are saying, "Oh, Apple probably paid for it." And like, no.
13:42 There was There was actually confirmation that none
13:44 of these companies paid to have their devices used.
13:46 It's wild to think that when you just look at like these astronauts
13:49 are from the US and what the US iPhone market share is.
13:52 It's really easy to deduce that they probably have an iPhone
13:55 And also, by the way, everyone's like, "Why Nikon?
13:58 Why not Canon?" Nikon was the first ever camera in space.
14:01 And the reason that happened was because one
14:03 of the astronauts just happened to be a photographer
14:05 and he bought a Nikon like before he went
14:07 up into space and he just took some pictures.
14:09 And that was before That was before Hasselblad.
14:11 That's before Hasselblad started making their um
14:14 their custom Hasselblad cameras for for space,
14:17 which they left some of those cameras on the moon,
14:19 which they should have just retrieved them
14:21 cuz they've been there since 1969 or whatever.
14:24 Oh, the cameras are still on the moon?
14:25 Yeah, the cameras are still on the moon.
14:26 They just took the film backs because they did they needed
14:28 as least the as little weight possible to be able to get back.
14:31 Space litter.
14:33 We should go retrieve those.
14:34 Next we yes, we have the iPhone 17 Pro Max
14:37 for the candid photos uh of the moon through the window,
14:41 which I think was very sick.
14:42 Those are fun.
14:43 They're just very sick.
14:43 They're very cool.
14:44 Yeah.
14:44 They had 80 to 400-mm lenses for close-up shots of the moon.
14:48 Those shots look insane.
14:51 Yeah.
14:51 I mean, we get the most detail we've ever seen of the moon.
14:54 I think my favorite shots are the ones that are
14:55 wide angle through the window of the of the spacecraft
14:58 so you can see like the window frame and then
15:00 you see what they see outside the window frame.
15:02 Yeah.
15:03 It It's like I It's hard to picture what
15:06 it would be like to be on the spacecraft,
15:07 but those are the shots that help me best understand what they're seeing.
15:11 Yeah.
15:11 It's crazy.
15:12 Yeah.
15:12 And then overall, there were 28 cameras placed inside
15:15 and outside uh the spacecraft, which is very cool.
15:17 If you go to the NASA website,
15:19 they're they've been uploading all of these basically in real time.
15:22 I mean, with a slight delay at the speed of light.
15:24 Uh but, they're really cool.
15:25 If you download the original images, you can get all the metadata for it.
15:29 Um and these are very good OLED wallpapers.
15:32 And I don't think that they're going to be OLED,
15:34 you know, right as you download them,
15:36 but if you take them into Photoshop and you lower the black point to zero,
15:39 then they'll become OLED.
15:40 So, yeah, I'm definitely planning on using
15:43 one of these as a wallpaper, for sure.
15:45 My favorite photo that I've linked in the doc, which is the second link there,
15:50 it's on Flickr uh is the eclipse that they saw.
15:53 So, when they flew around to the dark side of the moon,
15:56 there were there's a brief moment where the sun was behind the moon,
16:01 and the side of the moon was being lit up by a reflection of the Earth.
16:04 So, they had the the rarest solar eclipse of all time.
16:08 Nobody other than these four people have
16:09 ever seen this perspective of a solar eclipse.
16:12 And they took a photo of the moon,
16:14 which is just this ball floating in space in front of them on a Z 9.
16:18 It's like a 2-second exposure,
16:20 and it's just the trippiest I can't believe that's a real photo.
16:23 It's insane.
16:24 Yeah.
16:24 [laughter] Uh and then all of the background,
16:26 you see all these stars and planets lined
16:28 up and galaxies in the background behind them.
16:30 Incredible wallpaper material.
16:32 Uh one of my favorite photos I've ever seen, for sure.
16:34 Yeah.
16:34 Yeah.
16:35 No, it's it's absolutely gorgeous.
16:37 It's the wallpaper on my phone.
16:38 The glow on the back is so good.
16:39 It's awesome.
16:40 Yeah.
16:40 Yeah.
16:41 Uh one more thing that a lot of people were curious about,
16:43 they did live stream a lot of this.
16:44 I remember watching the launch on NASA's YouTube channel on last Wednesday.
16:51 There was like 2.8 million concurrent viewers, which is pretty sick.
16:55 What a lot of people don't know is
16:56 they kept streaming for a week and showing like
16:59 the perspective of the astronauts as they got
17:01 closer to the moon and farther from the Earth.
17:03 And uh you might be wondering how they
17:05 did that, because there's no internet in space.
17:09 Yeah.
17:08 Um they just were sending information directly back to I
17:12 think there's a series of three satellites on Earth,
17:15 where at least one of them is always pointing towards the moon or one
17:18 of them's always pointing towards the spacecraft
17:21 no matter where they were in orbit.
17:22 So, they were always able to send data back to Earth.
17:25 And that's how we have, you know,
17:26 this little super low-res, but effectively live stream of the astronauts.
17:30 And it's a it's one light second away tops,
17:32 so it's not that much of a delay as they send that information.
17:34 So,
17:35 Yeah.
17:35 pretty cool.
17:35 Pretty awesome.
17:36 Crazy they could live stream this whole thing,
17:38 yet Netflix constantly can't get Love Is
17:40 Blind Reunion streamed [laughter] properly on time.
17:43 There's more demand for that, Andrew.
17:45 For Love Is Blind?
17:46 Yeah.
17:46 Yeah, I know.
17:48 Yeah.
17:48 I think they'd get it right.
17:49 Yeah, if you want to go see those photos,
17:51 download those pictures, go to the NASA website.
17:53 We could link that in the show notes to make it easier.
17:55 Speaking of, I really don't know how to make this Things that don't exist.
18:00 Things that don't exist.
18:02 [laughter]
18:01 Are you kidding?
18:03 I
18:03 We can joke
18:04 saying allegedly every time you guys have talked about
18:07 We can joke about that.
18:08 even want to put it in.
18:10 [laughter]
18:10 I will say that this is real.
18:11 No, no, no.
18:12 Stop.
18:13 Don't put it in.
18:15 Come on.
18:16 Sharuun is real.
18:16 Come on.
18:17 There is a moment There is There is a thing
18:19 happening on social media where there's way more conspiracy theory content.
18:24 Yeah.
18:23 Because I don't even know how to talk about it.
18:25 It's just like obviously bait and it's engagement bait,
18:28 but it's also like there's never been so much of it and it's never been so
18:32 easy for dumb people to see it
18:34 and probably just jump right along and believe it.
18:38 Or weird.
18:39 Like you said, it's also it's like that and rage
18:41 bait where people want to feel smart by saying no,
18:44 you're wrong and stupid, which is engagement and makes that person money.
18:48 Yeah.
18:49 Yeah.
18:49 So, don't engage.
18:50 Don't engage.
18:50 See the rage bait, just keep scrolling.
18:53 Yeah.
18:53 That's how you win.
18:55 Yeah.
18:54 Dude, this this question what was the first camera in space?
18:57 Yeah, okay.
18:57 I is so interesting because it begs the question, what is space?
19:01 And also
19:02 What is a photo?
19:03 What is a camera?
19:05 Yeah.
19:04 This is so This is like bonus episode gold, right?
19:07 Yeah, maybe we should do that.
19:08 I know that the NASA has been licensing
19:11 or been using Nikon camera since like 1971 or something.
19:15 71, yeah.
19:15 Yeah, I knew that.
19:17 There's some interesting Officially.
19:18 There's some interesting stuff in here.
19:20 Yeah, the original moonrise photo was a Hasselblad, right?
19:23 Hasselblad was the first camera that night that NASA was like,
19:26 "We're going to work with a camera company and make a space camera." Yeah, yeah.
19:29 John Glenn went to a drugstore and bought a Minolta that he
19:33 had modified by NASA to be able to hit with his space suit.
19:36 But then uh in '61, like a year a few months before
19:41 that, a cosmonaut brought a 16 mm camera like a Soviet 16 mm camera.
19:47 But then also, seems like there were submissions with automated TV cameras out
19:51 like There's There's some interesting I think we should dive deeper into this.
19:55 Yeah.
19:55 So, Hasselblad made special versions of the Hasselblad 500 series cameras
19:58 that basically are pump action because the astronauts wear space suits.
20:03 When you the regular Hasselblad 500 CM has like a small little
20:07 shutter button that it's like very hard to even with your regular finger,
20:10 it kind of like pricks your finger a little bit.
20:12 Not actually like through your finger, but it's like kind of hard to use.
20:15 Anyway,
20:16 Bad design.
20:16 They made it a pump action and then there's only three distant settings.
20:18 There's close, medium, and far.
20:20 Um I They made a replica series 20 years later.
20:24 They made a replica series of those cameras that they made a thousand of.
20:27 Um which I own one of them because I'm crazy.
20:30 And uh they made these special backs that could
20:33 fit like way more film than most cameras.
20:36 But um I should have brought that in.
20:37 Maybe I'll bring it in next week and I can show you guys.
20:39 It's pretty cool.
20:40 Sick.
20:40 Speaking of I don't know.
20:42 Did any really cool things.
20:44 Sh- Yeah, I guess.
20:45 I don't know.
20:45 Yeah.
20:45 Speaking of really cool things.
20:46 Better than what I had.
20:47 Rolls of something.
20:48 No.
20:49 Rolls of Good call.
20:51 They weren't really rolls.
20:52 They were kind of get to see Zack from JerryRigEverything do a teardown
20:56 of a phone that never shipped because it's LG's rollable phone.
21:02 Mhm.
21:02 Uh fun fact, there's one in the mail here now.
21:06 What?
21:06 like, "We got it." I know it's on the way.
21:08 I have my sources.
21:09 This is breaking news to us in the studio.
21:12 Yeah, that's every week.
21:13 That's every week.
21:16 [laughter]
21:15 So, so LG died in 2021 is when they shut down their like smartphone division.
21:20 They stopped making phones.
21:22 Yeah, 2021.
21:23 I believe that's right.
21:24 Um and so That's like That's like It's crazy way to say you murdered them.
21:29 No.
21:30 [laughter] So, I was going to say the last two phones actually the last two
21:32 phones that they shipped before they died was the V60 and the LG Wing.
21:37 And I had a lot of nice things to say
21:39 about the LG Wing as insane as that phone was.
21:42 Um
21:42 It's crazy.
21:43 But here's the thing about phones like the LG Wing.
21:44 No one else would try that.
21:47 Yeah.
21:46 And that's why we love LG and that's why they're dead.
21:49 Yeah.
21:49 So Yeah.
21:50 Look, they also had a phone in the works
21:52 that was like a rollable phone that went
21:54 from a 5 and 1/2 inch phone and then kind of unrolled motorized like a parchment
21:59 to an 8-inch phone.
22:00 Yeah, yeah.
22:00 Uh
22:01 Could have had it all rolling in the deep.
22:06 Yeah.
22:06 That's a
22:07 Is that streetlight?
22:10 Yeah.
22:12 Anyway Yeah, so Zack Zack got his hands on one.
22:13 We will as well soon and he immediately did a teardown which
22:16 is so his style and you can see how over-engineered this thing is.
22:19 There's two motors.
22:20 There's two motors.
22:21 There's this metal track inside.
22:22 There's three spring-loaded arms.
22:24 The whole thing like like plays It doesn't play a sound.
22:27 It makes noise as it opens like And since it makes so
22:30 much noise they play like a like a musical chime to sort of
22:35 Cover it up.
22:37 So, it's really it's quite a a piece of engineering uh just like the Wing was.
22:41 It's insane and it never shipped.
22:43 We don't know what they would have charged for it,
22:44 what they would have called it, how they would have marketed it.
22:47 Uh but I do plan on like trying to use it.
22:49 I'm excited to get to get that.
22:51 I I'm I've not seen the video,
22:53 but I am terrified at what that's going to be
22:56 like when he takes the knife to the screen.
22:57 Oh no, he doesn't do that.
22:58 do it in that video.
22:59 Oh, thank god.
23:00 There's still time.
23:00 It's a teardown, yeah.
23:01 Yeah, there's still time.
23:02 He could do that.
23:03 time.
23:03 But I suspect a phone like this would not be very durable.
23:07 No.
23:06 It would not hold water and dust out very well.
23:09 It has a soft outer screen totally exposed all the time.
23:13 No, that's what was really cool about it is when it folds into the back,
23:17 there's a exterior glass screen that it folds underneath on the backside.
23:22 And then so on the back, it's not the soft touch screen.
23:25 I guess you're saying the front of it is the soft touch screen.
23:27 all the time.
23:28 But the back
23:29 works when it's not unrolled as a back screen, which is really cool.
23:33 I actually like the way they engineered this thing was really impressive
23:36 and probably would have been better made more sense than the LG Wing.
23:40 It kind of was like Remember the Xiaomi concept that was
23:43 like where we said like 200% screen to body ratio?
23:48 Yeah, yeah.
23:49 It basically had a screen covering 60% of the back
23:52 of it because it rolled around the backside.
23:55 But the internals are really cool.
23:56 The way it kind of those spring-loaded arms are actually
23:58 pushing the whole battery and internal module with the screen.
24:03 There's some cool stuff.
24:04 Definitely go check out his video.
24:05 But yeah, he doesn't destroy it.
24:06 He just actually uses it and takes it apart.
24:09 It's the most careful I've ever seen Zach B.
24:12 He
24:13 [laughter] gets to a point where he's like,
24:13 "I am shaking open this right now." And it's really funny to watch.
24:17 That's not the type of vibe you want for a phone that you use every
24:20 It's like a relic.
24:21 It's like you don't want to do any damage to it.
24:23 It'll be interesting to see when we get it here
24:25 if like using it in real life cuz you you know,
24:27 the front screen is soft and it's it's
24:29 never really protected as you use the phone.
24:31 So it's it's there's no way it's as durable as a regular phone.
24:34 Yeah, no.
24:34 But
24:34 you know.
24:35 I do like that sort of half screen on the back
24:37 that he just uses to see like his calendar and stuff like that.
24:40 I think that that's pretty smart.
24:42 Viewfinder for the camera.
24:44 Dang.
24:44 I would I would buy this.
24:45 It's cool.
24:45 You should definitely go watch that and I'm excited to see this thing.
24:48 Yeah.
24:49 Speaking of alternate form factors and never getting
24:52 shipped what I guess it was shipped but Well, this might ship.
24:55 This probably will ship.
24:56 iPhone Fold.
24:57 Actually, this entire week there's been articles both about how the folding
25:00 iPhone is maybe delayed and not going to ship in 2026.
25:05 And then maybe it's actually not so delayed and it is going to ship in 2026.
25:09 And both of those articles were posted from the same website on the same day,
25:12 which is why the only reason I added this, I
25:14 think it's so funny that MacRumors had an article called foldable
25:17 iPhone engineering delays could push launch to 2027 and also iPhone
25:21 fold expected to launch on time in September despite delay rumors.
25:24 So is this what hedging your bet looks like in real time?
25:27 [laughter] This is crazy.
25:28 It's the nothing ever happens theorem.
25:32 Yeah.
25:31 It Basically both of these articles were just two
25:34 different sources saying what they think is going to happen.
25:37 One's Gurman, one's a Japanese newspaper, I believe.
25:41 Um I cannot pronounce the name of the who wrote the article,
25:45 but uh the one thing I did find interesting in terms of what they seem to agree
25:51 on is while this is most likely going to be
25:54 announced at the same time as the iPhone 18,
25:56 even if it's {quote} on time,
25:58 it probably will not be delivered at the same time as the iPhone 18.
26:02 Uh so I have no idea if this is going to be 2026.
26:05 I think we will see the announcement 2026.
26:08 There's a chance this could be 2027.
26:10 Yeah, wouldn't be the first time we've
26:11 seen like a staggered release of the phones.
26:15 I don't know if you remember the mini and the plus when they came out.
26:18 was only a month later.
26:19 It was only a month later.
26:20 Wasn't the iPhone 10 also a little after the 10 exactly?
26:23 was after and and mini and that was COVID.
26:26 That was like three though, wasn't it?
26:28 It was like a couple There's three different dates of
26:31 I'm not going to remember the exact order,
26:32 but it was something like the mini and the pro max came out after
26:39 the regular and the plus or something like like a month and a half later.
26:42 Uh which was, you know,
26:44 easier to make videos about cuz they were staggered and separated, but
26:47 Do we want to take bets on this?
26:48 We already did.
26:50 Did we?
26:51 No.
26:51 We've definitely taken bets on if iPhone Fold
26:53 is coming out this year or next year.
26:54 Yeah, but we got new information.
26:56 So, do you think that it will be announced and then come out later,
27:00 like in 2027, or do you think it will be announced and come out in 2026?
27:04 I would not be shocked at all if we got this big fancy
27:07 folding iPhone Ultra and they said coming early next year or coming in December.
27:12 Maybe not early, maybe December or something like that.
27:14 I could easily see it being a staggered release to build some hype.
27:17 That's a really staggered How How far away can
27:20 it be to still be considered a staggered release?
27:23 Typically when they release a new iPhone,
27:25 it comes out like what, two, three weeks later?
27:28 Yeah.
27:28 My take is that if you announce something
27:30 and then you wait too long, people stop caring.
27:33 The Google had this problem with the Pixel.
27:35 Every time Google launched a Pixel Fold,
27:37 it's come out a couple months later and people just forget.
27:40 Also, Sony, yeah, Sony freaking announces them in September and they
27:44 always come out in December and then no one buys it.
27:46 Shocker.
27:47 Bro, that they're proud of that, too.
27:49 I remember I talked about like some of the Sony stuff.
27:51 It was like 10 months later they would come out with the phone.
27:55 And then they finally made huge strides and they were like, Marques,
27:58 we came out with the phone only three months after we announced it,
28:01 which is a big improvement, but it's still way too long.
28:05 Just wait till it's done and ready to ship
28:07 and then show it off and then ship it.
28:09 Anyway, that's another story.
28:13 But yeah, I I think it would probably make sense as like
28:16 a month and a half staggered here comes the Ultra type of thing.
28:21 I could see it.
28:22 I got a hot take.
28:23 We're going to see this at Dub Dub.
28:25 See it?
28:26 No shot.
28:26 0% I think they're Well, no,
28:28 your whole showing it off like with a folding iPhone be like
28:30 coming later this I think that's going to happen at Dub Dub.
28:33 Like we did with the Vision Pro.
28:35 And then the phone itself will come out this year, but later.
28:38 That's possible.
28:38 I have a I have a I'm so torn on this.
28:41 I love that take because I part of me is like 0% no shot that happens.
28:44 Dub Dub is for development and it's for software and any sort
28:47 of hardware announcement overshadows all the stuff
28:49 they want to show like iOS 28.
28:52 But on the other hand, the times that they do show new hardware,
28:56 it's specifically exciting to developers and things like the Mac
29:00 Pro which people could get excited to develop on.
29:03 Vision Pro which people could get excited to develop for.
29:07 Yeah.
29:07 And folding phone, you know, if you're making apps,
29:10 you kind of want to start thinking about
29:11 how to optimize your app for different screen sizes.
29:14 So maybe it does make sense to do that.
29:17 Unless, unless they basically just make it so
29:19 it's automatic and it basically becomes an iPad.
29:22 that's the thing they'll they'll do for sure.
29:25 That's going to be the their strength is like you add one line of code
29:28 and now it's like if you can make an iPad app by clicking one button basically.
29:32 But maybe you want to have some special,
29:34 you know, animation for the unfolding or something.
29:36 I don't know.
29:37 I think it could see it.
29:38 makes sense like that.
29:39 I just think dub dub this year's going to be
29:41 too much worrying about having to re-announce Siri 2.0.
29:44 That's [laughter] why I think they're going to do it.
29:46 I think
29:47 Yeah, it'll be like look at the excitement of the folding phone.
29:50 Forget about liquid ass.
29:52 But that's going to look so bad if it's like we have to re-announce
29:55 the thing that's 2 years late and here's a thing that might be late again.
29:59 they can spin it cuz you know what's starting to happen?
30:01 pretend anything's going to happen.
30:03 Well, the thing that I've the take I've seen more and more online is
30:06 that Apple being late to AI has actually been the best version of AI,
30:12 which is you know, all these phones are just shoving AI down
30:14 our throats and Apple's kind of not doing that so much and that's refreshing.
30:19 We appreciate it.
30:20 It's also because and they stick to what they're good at which is good hardware.
30:23 It's also cuz Apple didn't really spend billions of dollars investing
30:27 in this kind of stuff and now that AI is becoming so commoditized,
30:30 they kind of have like their pick
30:31 of the litter on what they want to utilize, right?
30:34 So they they picked Gemini because they had all these options.
30:36 They didn't have all those options when Chat GPT and the iPhone got announced.
30:40 That was like kind of the only thing that they could do.
30:43 And now it's like this awkward like middle child
30:45 that's like in the iPhone in a weird way.
30:46 And they're probably going to get rid of that.
30:48 And Yeah.
30:49 It's nice that they can do it,
30:50 but it's also really funny knowing that they tried
30:53 and that was not the original plan and that they failed.
30:56 But they failed upwards.
30:57 Yeah.
30:58 They got very lucky on that.
30:59 If you're going to fail, fail up.
31:00 their stock is the only one that has not been impacted by the AI stuff.
31:05 Yeah.
31:05 You think of Apple as this huge tech company
31:07 and if AI is the next big huge tech,
31:09 then they must be a player in that space.
31:13 But they're not a player in every space.
31:15 They don't make everything.
31:17 So, you know, search engine they don't make.
31:20 They, you know, borrow the best one and show it to their users as a default.
31:24 And maybe
31:26 released.
31:26 Well, yeah, exactly.
31:27 made it.
31:27 They're not a public competitor in that space.
31:30 And I think that that's kind of ending up true of AI where,
31:34 okay, there's all these models, there's all these advanced development.
31:37 They tried to jump in, it didn't really work,
31:39 but they still their bread and butter is still
31:41 the device that you use to do the AI stuff on.
31:44 People are clamoring to buy Mac Studios that finally have enough VRAM.
31:48 If you could tether three of them together with Thunderbolt,
31:49 you can have a machine that runs open claw and have everything's local.
31:52 Like that's People are buying Apple hardware still.
31:56 Yeah.
31:56 And that's probably going to continue to be true.
31:58 Yeah.
31:58 And I think ultimately they're realizing that people
32:01 use different AIs for different use cases.
32:04 And so they just want to be the the main thing that runs the thing.
32:07 They don't want to be choosing what you use with it.
32:10 Like Apple Intelligence, at the end of the day,
32:12 is just an extension of things that the phone could basically already do.
32:16 And so that doesn't need to be the thing that does everything.
32:19 Like you're going to use Claude on your phone.
32:20 You're going to use Gemini on your phone.
32:21 You're going to use OpenAI ChatGPT on your phone.
32:24 If that's the service that you use.
32:27 Yeah.
32:26 And so, you know, Google obviously has both and makes it.
32:29 But at the end of the day that could be
32:31 a negative for them because if Google's trying to force you
32:33 to use Gemini and then things work better with Gemini than
32:36 they do with say Claude and you're like a Claude power user,
32:39 you might be more incentivized to use the iPhone that gives you
32:43 more of a choice to use what AI you want to use.
32:46 Yeah.
32:48 So.
32:47 There is no world in which that happens.
32:51 Why?
32:50 There's no way that Google the open one would be
32:54 more closed down with which AI you can use on the
32:56 closed, but but like Gemini is so embedded in Android.
33:00 That's on like Gemini will always have its uh inherent Yeah,
33:05 and Android's tied in its inherent like abilities to do more,
33:09 but they're not going to actively make you not use Gemini.
33:13 No, I know that, but it would be annoying if you're doing
33:17 various things on your phone and it's prompting you to use Gemini.
33:20 It's actively trying to move you towards a Gemini subscription.
33:24 Yeah, but I could just like right now I
33:25 could just change it to Claude like in the settings.
33:28 Change what to Claude?
33:29 My my assistant.
33:30 I think that that's probably what people are
33:32 going to want from their phone is the well-integrated
33:35 thing, which is why it felt like it
33:36 made sense for Apple intelligence to be really
33:38 good because that's going to be the one
33:39 that works the best across all these Apple surfaces.
33:42 It's going to pull my messages and it's going to pull
33:44 my Google my calendar from Apple calendar and all these other Apple things.
33:48 So, I want the Apple intelligence AI to be good on my Apple
33:51 device and and of course Gemini will be good across all these Google services,
33:55 pull from my Google Drive, Google Photos, Google whatever.
33:58 So, that's what we were hoping for from Apple intelligence,
34:01 but now they're just kind of giving us the choice
34:04 of other ones that don't really talk to Apple stuff.
34:06 Yeah.
34:08 Yeah.
34:07 I'm not a businessman.
34:09 I don't know how money works.
34:10 I'm a businessman.
34:13 However, I've always understood Google's whole business model to be
34:16 we're going to either sell our hardware at a loss
34:19 or with the slimmest possible margin we can do because you're going
34:24 to use all these Google services and we can harvest your data.
34:28 Yeah.
34:28 And so, I kind of agree with David.
34:29 I see going forward Google's going to be like, "Nah,
34:32 you're using Gemini." Because if someone buys a Pixel and then uses Claude,
34:37 they're losing money on that.
34:38 L for Google.
34:39 Yeah, you bought the Pixel.
34:39 Yeah, you bought the Pixel.
34:40 They don't make money on the Pixel.
34:42 Google, that's an L for Google.
34:43 that's a Google Yeah, that's an L for Yeah,
34:44 I'm saying Google all of a sudden is not making Like,
34:46 they're still harvesting all your data because they're using a Pixel,
34:49 but they need the Gemini data, I think, to really make it worth it.
34:53 my thing is that no AI is making money anyway.
34:55 Google can just burn money because they own the internet.
34:59 No, but
35:00 Google will make money by getting trained training
35:02 data off of your Gemini chats and then also using the data they get from you via
35:07 your Gemini chats to make your ads more targeted.
35:10 But they're getting that data already from the iPhone,
35:12 which is giving them a billion dollars on top of that.
35:14 They don't need 3% of Pixel users to use Gemini.
35:18 They're going to let you use Anthropic.
35:20 Guys, I think I might have just gotten clapped back.
35:22 But what I'm saying what I'm saying is like Google
35:24 is always going to be pushing you towards Gemini, right?
35:27 Because all of their services, all of the things on the phone,
35:30 like it's so embedded into the phone that it's easier to use Gemini.
35:33 And so if you're like a Claude super user,
35:36 you might be kind of annoyed that like now half
35:38 of my contacts is in Gemini and the other half is in Claude.
35:41 And whether or not that it ends up being
35:43 a thing that incentivizes people to buy an iPhone, it probably won't be,
35:47 but it's just kind of an interesting interaction
35:48 because of the way that AI has been commodified.
35:51 Well, more so my thing my point was I don't think there's a world where Apple
35:55 is more open with that kind of thing
35:57 with sharing the context between different AIs than Google.
36:00 I kind of disagree with that.
36:01 Specifically because Apple has the servers
36:03 that they're making with Google in partnership.
36:06 Like Anthropic has servers from AWS,
36:08 they have servers from Azure, they have servers everywhere.
36:11 Apple is not going to let your data go to some random server.
36:13 They want control of the server, which they have a partnership with Google.
36:16 Yeah, and like the things that happen like
36:18 autonomously with the phone are obviously like through Apple,
36:20 through Google, through those servers that are, you know, nothing touches it.
36:24 I just think they care less about what AI
36:26 that you versus Google really really wants you to use Gemini
36:30 and the market incentives will probably push them towards making
36:33 Gemini the the choice they want you to, you know.
36:36 I think you both have really really valid points in the sense
36:38 that I still I still see where you're coming from where it's like
36:41 Google doesn't have as much of an incentive to lock you into Gemini
36:44 as I thought they might have at the outset of this conversation.
36:47 I think But also, I do think Apple's opinion on this matter
36:52 would change a lot more than Google's when
36:54 you're talking about just like a normal generative transformer
36:57 versus something agentic that's like monkeying around in your phone.
37:01 yeah.
37:01 I think there's also probably a world where a lot
37:03 of people at Google believe that if you do use I'm sorry, Andrew's face.
37:08 [laughter]
37:09 No.
37:09 My Pixel makes me want to never touch Gemini.
37:12 Like like has please, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
37:13 Go ahead, go.
37:14 The look on Andrew's face was
37:15 I guess I think that there's probably a lot
37:17 of people at Google who believe that they
37:19 want you to use Gemini because that represents
37:22 like the next stage of all of the data
37:25 harvesting that they do and if you start using a different AI
37:28 and start doing all these searches and all these queries and all this stuff,
37:31 that represents a bunch of data that they're not getting.
37:34 100%.
37:33 And so if they're if they're allowing people
37:36 to move on from Gemini to a bunch of other
37:39 stuff and then they slowly get less and less
37:41 data from the old ways of gathering data,
37:43 then they missed jumping the Yeah, I mean think about this.
37:45 They're basically transitioning from Google
37:47 Search being their primary revenue driver.
37:49 to Gemini.
37:50 So if they're not getting as if they don't
37:52 have as many Gemini users, that's like a huge
37:55 impact for them.
37:56 That's what I That's what I I'm just I'm trying to envision a world where
37:59 I can go into the iPhone settings and change
38:01 Siri to Claude versus going into the Pixel
38:05 settings and changing Gemini to Anthropic like to Claude.
38:08 And I'm trying to think which one is more likely to happen.
38:12 Really?
38:13 Because it just because of who's a player in the game, I think.
38:15 Like the way you can choose your search engine now on the iPhone,
38:17 you could just move it from Google to whatever you want.
38:20 Yeah.
38:20 Uh is the same because they don't make their own search engine.
38:23 I think when there is a Claude and Anthropic and a GPT and a Gemini,
38:27 you can do that on the iPhone and pick your model
38:29 as well because they don't have a competitor in that space.
38:31 But but not to just regurgitate Adam's earlier point,
38:33 but like I totally think that's the case with a chat.
38:37 However, if everyone's trying to get these agentic
38:40 models that can actually do stuff inside your phone,
38:44 I have it seems to me like a more uphill
38:47 thing getting Apple to let an agent run on someone
38:50 else's servers and I I can't believe Apple would
38:53 want us want to set up their own data centers.
38:56 Well, the agentic to run agentic other people's agentic models.
39:00 The agentic stuff is probably going to be a local Gemini Nano model,
39:04 which is different from the things that are hitting the servers.
39:06 But yeah, but that sucks.
39:07 I want I want I want local Claude.
39:10 I want local too.
39:11 Yeah, and I don't think that Apple is going to allow multiple
39:15 different models for that because they want the user experience to be Yeah.
39:18 unique and the same across all devices.
39:21 I could see Apple eventually working with Anthropic and Open
39:24 AI for the stuff the AI stuff that happens
39:27 in the cloud because then they're creating a marketplace where they
39:30 can reduce the cost that they're paying to those model providers.
39:35 Yeah.
39:35 And also it gives people the option to, you know,
39:37 use whatever commodity that they use.
39:39 out.
39:39 We do a bonus episode?
39:42 [laughter]
39:41 This feels like a whole episode.
39:43 This is like a whole episode.
39:44 We get Tim we get Tim Cook, we get Sundar,
39:46 we get Sam and we just go, "Who was right?
39:50 Tell us who was right.
39:50 Which one of us was right?
39:51 Was it me?"
39:52 I want to do a cage match.
39:53 This was not supposed to go on this long.
39:55 Sorry.
39:55 We were talking about the iPhone fold.
39:57 No, but it's an interesting it's an interesting question and it's
39:59 one that we will get the answer to, I think, in a couple months.
40:02 In pretty soon, yeah.
40:03 So, and then and then we'll find out who was right.
40:07 Yeah.
40:07 Okay, Andrew.
40:08 You see that up by the moon?
40:09 That's the rails.
40:10 We are so far off the rails.
40:11 [laughter] Wow.
40:12 I was going to add my one thing about AI and phones,
40:15 which is my Pixel I I came across this thing the other day where I was like,
40:20 "My Google Home My like Nest doorbell isn't giving me notifications anymore.
40:25 What broke on this?" And I realized I turned it
40:29 off because I was getting so annoyed at I changed
40:31 my Google Home camera stuff for the notifications to like it
40:35 says you can use AI to search through activities that happened,
40:39 but what it really does is not just
40:40 that, but every time it sends a notification,
40:42 it's this like really long terrible sentence about what may have happened.
40:47 And I got so annoyed at the notifications of like
40:51 a person walks up from a delivery agent to the thing.
40:54 It's like, "I just want to see there's a person
40:55 at the door." That's all you have to tell me.
40:57 And having 30 of those notifications I guess I got so mad I
41:00 turned it off one day and forgot and then realized a month later.
41:04 And aren't there like granular settings to this?
41:06 something in there now.
41:08 I just wanted it to be able to search
41:10 like did somebody drop something off between 2 and 4?
41:13 And that should work.
41:14 That's
41:15 I think it's the first part works.
41:17 But the notifications are insufferable.
41:19 And it's it's so bad.
41:22 And it also, even though all of my family's faces are attached
41:25 in there it correctly identifies the person one out of 40 times.
41:31 Woah.
41:31 Mine's pretty good at it.
41:32 Almost looking directly at the camera face scanning it.
41:35 Mine's pretty good.
41:36 I I did I remember the day I started getting
41:38 the new notifications cuz it would always just be like, "Person.
41:41 Person.
41:42 Person.
41:43 Movement.
41:44 Person." Now it's like,
41:46 "A UPS driver dropped off a medium-sized box at the door." And I'm like, "I
41:51 But then you click that and it's like Claire coming home with groceries.
41:56 [laughter] Mine has been pretty good.
41:56 Mine has been I would say mine has been
41:58 like 90% way too accurate and then 10% totally off.
42:03 Oh, mine's 90% totally That's weird.
42:05 Interesting.
42:06 While we're talking about Ring, shout out to the new Ben Jordan
42:08 Yeah.
42:09 I saw that video.
42:09 another absolute banger.
42:10 It's terrifying.
42:12 Surveillance state.
42:13 I just
42:13 to say hi to everyone watching me when I get Yeah.
42:16 All right.
42:17 Well, um
42:19 That went quite a while.
42:20 Can someone transition this Messages is getting shut down.
42:22 Yeah, okay.
42:22 Thanks.
42:23 I mean Yeah.
42:24 It actually is a good segue because that segue
42:27 was as abrupt as Samsung shutting down Samsung Messages.
42:30 Cuz they're basically like, "Yo, peace.
42:32 This shit's gone July." That's kind of a segue within a segue.
42:36 What is Samsung Messages?
42:37 So [laughter] maybe like a decade ago if Oh my god.
42:42 No, this is not I'm making sure.
42:43 I'm making sure.
42:43 No, no, no, no, no.
42:45 I'm Yeah, it's
42:46 Samsung used to ship their own messages app.
42:48 And you know, every you know,
42:49 you bought a Samsung phone and there'd be Samsung Messages.
42:51 It'd have its own chime.
42:52 It'd have its own layout.
42:52 It was just exactly like Google Messages or whatever.
42:54 And I would always actually go to the Play
42:56 Store and download Google Messages cuz I liked it better.
42:58 And then one day maybe five, six years ago, I'm not sure exactly when.
43:02 Six or seven?
43:03 They six, seven years ago they started just
43:06 shipping Samsung phones with Google Messages by default.
43:08 Like they stopped shipping it with Samsung Messages.
43:10 They still supported it and it still existed,
43:12 but they just accepted that people just use
43:15 Google Messages when they buy an Android phone.
43:18 Uh and now it's a couple years later and they're like, "All right,
43:20 we're not going to keep supporting Samsung Messages." So,
43:22 whatever servers, whatever service there was, it's gone.
43:25 If you still actually use Samsung Messages,
43:28 be very careful.
43:31 Yeah.
43:30 The thread on the Samsung subreddit is very upset.
43:34 Well, if I'm on the Samsung subreddit,
43:35 I probably am more likely to be a user of of Samsung Messages.
43:38 What's crazy is months heads up.
43:41 That's what happened.
43:42 That's That's a really fast
43:43 That's old hat.
43:44 What happens when it EOLs?
43:47 Uh I assume you can't send messages using the app anymore.
43:49 That would be insane.
43:51 Um It's got to be.
43:52 It should just update and auto download Google Messages and replace it.
43:56 I mean, that's essentially what you're going to want to do at this point.
43:58 it's crazy that they're making people do that manually.
44:01 Well, I think they accepted that this would happen at some point like
44:04 five years ago when they stopped shipping it as a default on their devices,
44:07 but they should have given people a heads up way,
44:09 way long ago when they stopped shipping as a default that hey,
44:12 we're going to shut this down at some point.
44:13 They probably just didn't know they were going to do it.
44:15 Now they just decided they're doing it and they're doing it 2 months,
44:18 so yeah, like a very little time.
44:21 I doubt he's going to know to update before June or July, you
44:25 is it update or is it you also have to download Google Messages?
44:29 question.
44:29 I didn't understand what you were saying.
44:30 Yeah, for the people who don't know, not everyone's going to see this thing.
44:34 Are they just going to do what 3 days later be like,
44:36 "I haven't had a text in a little while." [laughter]
44:38 It's still what It's totally okay.
44:39 Everyone knows Android users notoriously awesome
44:42 at keeping their phones up to date.
44:44 They're literally the best user base for hitting the update button.
44:47 They're going to be fine.
44:50 Yeah.
44:49 The Verge says 2024 is when they started shipping as a default Google Messages.
44:52 I feel like it was way before that.
44:54 Well, they did it because of RCS.
44:56 They were trying to like really force people
44:58 onto Google Messages cuz for a while Google
45:00 Messages and weirdly like Verizon Messages were
45:02 the only apps that supported RCS in the store.
45:05 Right.
45:05 And then they had that weird bromance with Google
45:08 for a long time that sort of is still in action,
45:10 but not as much anymore.
45:12 Yeah, I don't know.
45:13 It's strange.
45:14 I rant about the time Sorry, quick tangent.
45:18 it.
45:17 Cuz it has to do with Google Messages.
45:19 be 57 minutes.
45:21 [laughter]
45:23 I got ratioed so hard on Threads.
45:25 Oh, [laughter] yeah, you did.
45:28 What did you do?
45:28 Because I got ratioed already.
45:29 I posted a screenshot of Google Messages on a Samsung device and I circled
45:35 the whole top half of the screen that just says Google Messages like the logo.
45:39 Right.
45:38 And I'm like, "Why is this here?" Yeah, I agree with you.
45:41 That's so Like half of the screen is just unusable information.
45:44 Why would you get ratioed for that?
45:46 Everyone was like, "Bro, just scroll." And I'm like, "I know how apps work.
45:50 I'm saying why isn't there usable information here?"
45:52 Wait, there was a moment where everyone applauded that white space.
45:55 They were like, "Wow, how thoughtful.
45:56 I can reach my pocket."
45:57 getting ratioed.
45:59 Yeah, that's why I'm getting ratioed because one UI is
46:01 like for one-handedness and I was like, yeah, I know.
46:03 I'm saying it's stupid because if you go to like Samsung phone app,
46:07 they make use of that space.
46:09 It's not things that you can tap or whatever,
46:10 but it'll tell you like you have a missed call.
46:12 You have like useful information.
46:14 Oh.
46:14 Why don't I have that in other places?
46:15 a question for you because I haven't used Google Messages in a while.
46:18 If you If you Can you pin message threads or messages?
46:23 You can and it's it stays in the middle.
46:24 It doesn't pin to the top the way it does on on Apple.
46:27 Adam's just saying it should be usable space.
46:29 Yeah, that's totally fair.
46:31 Or not even you like Well, yeah, I guess usable,
46:33 but like tell me some sort of useful
46:35 information if you don't want me to click it.
46:37 a clock.
46:37 I would be happy with that.
46:38 Just show you the just the clock.
46:40 Yeah, it's going to be ads one day.
46:43 [laughter] Next next topic.
46:44 Don't give them those ideas.
46:45 It's just going to be a giant Gemini button at some point.
46:49 Yeah.
46:48 Samsung Messages shutting down.
46:50 Less choice sucks.
46:52 We're going to leave a little pause here for all
46:53 the people who are about to type just use WhatsApp.
46:56 Go on.
46:57 Do it.
46:57 I don't want you to miss any more of the episode.
46:59 Got it?
47:00 Almost.
47:01 Little angrier.
47:02 Perfect.
47:03 Less choice does suck,
47:07 but I would never be sad to see Verizon Messages Plus implode.
47:10 [laughter] That's all I'm going to say.
47:13 I'm just saying.
47:14 That's a good take.
47:16 Fair.
47:15 That's a good take.
47:18 Yeah.
47:17 All right.
47:18 Well, we should take a quick break.
47:19 We have talked for a quite a while about
47:21 a bunch of things and now we should do trivia.
47:23 The next one is going to be a nice simple little section.
47:26 Well, it could be simple for the beginning of the month.
47:28 I was just going to say it literally says debate.
47:30 There's no debate.
47:32 [laughter]
47:33 It's not really a debate.
47:33 I think we're all on the same page.
47:35 not.
47:36 Oh.
47:36 I know not Yeah.
47:37 Good to know this stuff.
47:39 Trivia.
47:40 Trivia.
47:40 Little bit of foreshadowing after the break we're going to talk about what is
47:43 in my opinion the craziest tech news story of the year assuming no one's lying,
47:47 Anthropic's Project Glass Wing.
47:50 Um but the question is where does the term Glass Wing come from?
47:56 And it's multiple choice.
47:58 It's A,
48:00 [music]
47:59 glasswing is an experimental F1 rear wing
48:02 design from the ground effect era of cars.
48:05 B, a glasswing is a Central American butterfly with transparent wings.
48:10 C, a glasswing is a type of parachute used
48:13 by first responders to jump into dense [music] forest canopies.
48:17 Or D, it's an acronym.
48:20 General Layer Analysis Screening with Integrated Neural GPTs.
48:24 GPT standing for Generative Pre-trained Transformer.
48:28 There's nested acronyms.
48:30 [laughter] Nested acronyms.
48:30 Wow.
48:32 Okay.
48:33 That is uh I definitely wouldn't have gotten that without the multiple choice.
48:36 I still might not get it, but we'll think about that.
48:39 Answers will be at the end like usual.
48:41 We'll be right back.
48:41 think I want my parachute to be called a glasswing.
48:46 [music] [music]
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49:47 Rules and restrictions may apply.
49:49 All right, welcome back.
49:51 Got a little debate for y'all.
49:53 So David Pierce wrote an article on The Verge this week called vertical browser
49:56 tabs are better and you should use
49:58 them about how Chrome finally added vertical tabs Yep.
50:01 to their browser.
50:02 And then listed out some of the reasons why you should use them.
50:04 So I know a lot of us
50:06 on this podcast have very strong opinions about vertical tabs.
50:09 So I thought the best thing to do is
50:11 to talk about how we like them or don't like them,
50:14 list some of the reasons David Pierce laid out,
50:16 and in true podcast fashion we can debate
50:18 him in a situation where he can't defend himself.
50:21 Yeah, that's cool.
50:22 Yeah.
50:22 Okay.
50:23 So he's very pro vertical tabs.
50:25 David on the next on the next Vergecast episode, you will respond.
50:28 This is how we This is how we start YouTube drama.
50:31 You got to make response videos to each other.
50:33 That's actually valid.
50:33 And we haven't done this yet, so it's time.
50:35 I think it's time.
50:36 Let's all start.
50:37 I think you two are pro vertical tabs, right?
50:40 Uh here's my browser right here.
50:41 Vertical tabs on the side.
50:43 Yeah.
50:42 You think I'm pro vertical tabs?
50:44 This should be common knowledge.
50:47 [laughter]
50:47 Um yeah.
50:48 75% of why I started using Arc.
50:50 Yeah, Arc.
50:51 I mean, in the episode where I where I talked about Arc for the first time,
50:54 I explained it so horribly, but the only thing that I was like,
50:58 "This is amazing." was vertical tabs.
51:00 What about you two?
51:01 Vertical tabs all day.
51:04 Ellis.
51:04 Yeah, thank you.
51:05 Yeah, I know.
51:05 Horizontal tabs.
51:06 Horizontal tabs all day.
51:07 Interesting.
51:08 Yeah.
51:08 And is this because of you haven't tried or you dislike vertical?
51:13 His screen is square.
51:15 [laughter]
51:15 That's actually very important for this.
51:17 I know.
51:17 Very valid.
51:17 Even better though.
51:18 My my when I'm a browsing,
51:21 um I'm one of those people who is like stuck in the year 2011
51:25 and I use uh command and one through nine to go through my tabs.
51:30 So
51:31 You have to memorize which tab is in which number.
51:35 really like a I mean, I guess.
51:37 Then you make it sound like it's a big mental task.
51:39 Sounds like one.
51:40 That's how you switch between tabs,
51:41 but you still have all of your tabs up at the top of your browser.
51:44 Yeah, but the buttons are horizontal.
51:47 Oh, the Oh, interesting.
51:48 Oh, so maybe there's a little mental alignment.
51:51 No, it's just wrong the other way, I think.
51:52 [laughter] Like, sorry.
51:54 That's valid.
51:54 Okay.
51:55 I'm pro horizontal tabs with LS.
51:57 Pro horizontal.
51:57 And does that mean you're anti-vertical?
52:00 Oh, yeah.
52:00 I would Interesting.
52:01 I'd be down with like a grid of tabs and then I could use the numpad for that.
52:05 But but they need to be in They need to be in the same
52:08 shape.
52:08 Like a 3 by 3 grid of tabs.
52:10 have a numpad?
52:11 Yeah.
52:11 On all my computers.
52:12 Pro Tools pretty much requires you to have a numpad.
52:15 Uh
52:17 numpad
52:16 Uh I use my laptop almost exclusively in dock mode with a keyboard with
52:21 and like 400 peripherals.
52:24 Yeah.
52:23 Yeah.
52:24 [laughter] I'm out of uh I'm Sorry.
52:26 I'm out of USB ports on every single setup I have.
52:31 Uh
52:30 Which is hilarious cuz I have a CalDigit TS5.
52:33 Like, it's just
52:35 Anyway.
52:35 Yeah, I'm I like I like horizontal tabs.
52:37 But I'm also a Safari user.
52:38 Yeah, that's crazy.
52:39 So, I don't know if my opinions are super valid.
52:41 That's crazy.
52:42 I I It's crazy that you're you're use Safari
52:46 because if you if you're docked all the time,
52:49 the battery life doesn't really matter.
52:51 And Safari's only good for one thing, which is battery life.
52:54 That's not I like the icon.
52:56 Not going to lie.
52:57 Unfortunately Commonly accepted facts.
52:59 Commonly accepted facts.
53:01 Accepted by who?
53:01 Lunatics?
53:02 I would say ask any browser enthusiast.
53:04 This is not what this conversation was
53:07 [laughter]
53:07 What are we debating?
53:08 How about attacking LS?
53:10 Reasons Safari is goated.
53:11 It's Okay, one, I'm on an Apple Silicon laptop.
53:14 Battery life is going to be legit no matter what or where I'm going.
53:18 No, no, it's not.
53:19 Bro, I'm
53:20 It's not true.
53:21 I'm a super turbo power user.
53:22 I can at least get like 4 hours of battery life minimum.
53:25 The difference between Chrome and Safari in regular
53:29 browsing for several hours is shockingly high.
53:32 Really?
53:33 It's traumatic.
53:33 Oh my god.
53:34 This laptop lasts is is terrifyingly long-lasting battery
53:38 on Safari is average at best with Chrome.
53:41 Wait, so so why are we hating on Safari then?
53:44 I'm So, you're saying you use a doc so that the performance
53:48 and efficiency battery gains that you get are effectively not important at all?
53:52 The No, the performance is super important.
53:55 Performance is great.
53:56 But, once you open it Valid,
53:58 and I think there's there's a little bit more of a obviously people
54:02 depends on how much RAM you have where this argument becomes more important,
54:05 but the like how long it takes to open the browser,
54:07 I notice Safari's faster, and then once I'm into browsing,
54:10 I notice effectively no difference.
54:13 Yeah.
54:13 And the battery life is the main thing that I would use Safari for.
54:16 Interesting.
54:16 Okay.
54:17 My thinking is one, I do a lot of RAM heavy tasks all the time.
54:21 I really like having as much RAM free as possible at any given moment.
54:24 Love that.
54:25 Two, I'm a little bit of a security freak.
54:28 I like over the past few months, I've become like way,
54:30 way, way more freakish about my data, and I love private relay.
54:35 Like I I see private relay like securing me all the time now.
54:40 Mhm.
54:41 Um and then I guess I don't really use like browser extensions very much.
54:44 Like like not it's it's like very not often
54:47 that I see a browser extension that I I'm interested in.
54:49 And then whenever I like I have Chrome installed on all my computers
54:53 for when there is like a specific extension I need to use,
54:56 but I have yet to find a single browser extension that I'm like I'm so
55:00 this is so essential to my life that I'd be willing to use 60 GB of RAM.
55:05 use the Claude and Chrome extension?
55:07 I do.
55:07 That's the only time I open Chrome.
55:09 So, I'll be do be doing all my stuff in Safari,
55:12 and then I'll have a Chrome window open that Claude is controlling.
55:14 If I can make an analogy,
55:16 when I first got Andrew to use a tasks app, and there were like 75 options,
55:20 and you were like, "I'll just try Google Tasks first." And I was like,
55:23 "Okay, that's It's a good like it's the default one.
55:26 There's no advanced features and no plugins or anything crazy like
55:29 that, but it is gets you in the door." That is Safari, I think.
55:34 Yeah.
55:33 As soon as you find like two or three features that are not available
55:36 in tasks that you start to lean on, it's the same thing as finding two
55:40 or three extensions in the browser or two or three UI features in the browser
55:43 that you start to lean on and then you're like Safari is so far behind.
55:47 It doesn't have It has extensions,
55:49 but like the the amount of UI fun and trickery and elegance and interesting
55:53 things happening in I mean Arc is obviously the one we talk about a lot,
55:56 but so many other browsers, they're just not in Safari.
55:59 I really I really want to talk about tabs.
56:01 I don't want to make [laughter]
56:02 Do you know what feature is really stupid to lean on?
56:04 Vertical tabs.
56:05 Okay, let's talk about vertical tabs.
56:06 Let's talk about that.
56:07 lean on them because they're vertical like a wall.
56:09 You can't lean on something that's You can't lean on the ground.
56:12 That's horizontal.
56:14 Your Your monitor is a wide screen.
56:15 This is This is the default, right?
56:16 Your monitor is a wide screen.
56:18 Well, you have a bunch of tabs at the top,
56:19 it's cramming them all into the top and you can't see anything.
56:22 Put them over to the side,
56:24 you can have as many tabs as you want, you'll never run out of room.
56:26 You don't run out of vertical real estate cuz your tabs are only a slot.
56:31 So, just horizontal tabs just make sense
56:33 for a vertical browsing experience on a wide screen monitor.
56:37 Agreed?
56:38 Agreed.
56:38 All right.
56:39 Agreed in that scenario, but
56:41 Okay.
56:40 that scenario.
56:42 Well, okay, there's more scenarios in this.
56:43 One, do you guys use your Mac dock on the side?
56:47 Uh it's at the bottom.
56:48 What's a Mac dock?
56:49 Actually, on my desktop it is on the side.
56:51 It's on the side.
56:51 don't use it on the side.
56:53 That's crazy.
56:54 Why would Why not?
56:56 If it's wide screen and it's vertical I don't use it on the side.
56:58 I don't really use my dock.
57:00 I see what you're
57:00 Why don't you have it on the side?
57:02 what you're doing.
57:02 Yeah, I just
57:03 It's the exact same thing.
57:04 same thing.
57:05 No, no, no, no, no.
57:06 I think I think Marques might win this one because I
57:08 Well, cuz he does use it.
57:09 Well, but Adam uses it on the side also.
57:11 What?
57:11 No, no, no, I used to use it on the side too,
57:12 but the I the icons are square and so it's it doesn't matter what direction,
57:16 whereas writing is horizontal, so you could even have it on the side more.
57:19 width of screen real estate and that a a general web page is vertical.
57:23 This is something David Pierce says also.
57:25 He says
57:25 precious vertical pixels.
57:27 virtually every modern computer display is wide screen.
57:29 Most web pages are taller than they are wide,
57:32 so if you're reading anything, you don't need the width of space.
57:35 I don't agree with that.
57:36 I think that I think the idea is that like if you
57:39 have something that is larger in the vertical in the horizontal dimension,
57:42 then you'd want to stack it vertically
57:43 because you lose less information per instance.
57:47 it's even simpler.
57:48 It's I have more horizontal pixels, so I will waste more of them on tabs.
57:51 I have less vertical pixels,
57:53 so I want to scroll less by having less things wasting my vertical pixels.
57:56 Something you guys are disregarding is the magical ability to hide your tabs.
58:00 Arc
58:02 This is my goated Arc setup.
58:05 tabs.
58:04 Yeah, you swipe you you Okay, the the active page,
58:08 you swipe over, and then your tabs come out.
58:10 There's something so funny about you not doing that with your dock.
58:12 What do you say you don't use your dock?
58:14 Well, I don't really use my dock.
58:15 You can hide You should hide your dock.
58:17 Yeah, I should.
58:19 [laughter]
58:18 I never thought about that.
58:20 You should definitely hide your dock.
58:22 But okay, this is the goated Arc setup.
58:24 You have two windows.
58:25 Arc does have a feature where you can have like two It's one window,
58:28 but you have two separate pages, but that's lame.
58:30 Can I pause you right there really fast?
58:32 Okay.
58:32 Cuz that's what I wanted to say.
58:33 Everyone's talking about width of screen real estate.
58:35 I put two windows up.
58:36 So now Yeah.
58:38 Yeah, I don't have that much screen real estate.
58:40 Now in two windows, if you're not doing his goated Arc setup,
58:43 if you have two windows with vertical tabs, now you're taking up so much space.
58:49 But there's vertical and you have this huge buffer in between.
58:53 hidden.
58:52 But in your very specific scenario, not in
58:54 on.
58:54 Most people hide the tabs in Arc.
58:56 In Arc, but he's This whole article is about Chrome.
58:59 Yeah, because Chrome sucks.
59:01 I think by default
59:03 I You don't hide your tabs, right?
59:05 No, I don't.
59:05 So if you have two browser windows Sorry,
59:08 I feel like I'm interrupting a lot here,
59:09 but I don't want to I don't want to miss specific things we're talking about.
59:12 Yeah.
59:13 Um if you have two browsers open side by side,
59:16 so now it's tabs article tabs article.
59:20 And it's all like Yeah, that's all right.
59:22 be terrible.
59:22 I do that sometimes.
59:24 that?
59:24 On a wide screen monitor, it's still fine.
59:26 There's enough horizontal space monitor.
59:29 Well, it's wide.
59:29 It's a wide screen.
59:30 about your 14-in MacBook
59:31 There are people who use ultra wides.
59:33 Anyone who uses an ultra wide cannot possibly
59:35 justify not using horizontal tabs or vertical tabs.
59:38 You got to use vertical tabs.
59:39 they're not
59:41 Yeah.
59:40 But on a on my you know, the Pro Display or whatever, it's still wide screen.
59:44 I still got plenty of horizontal pixels to spare and every website is vertical.
59:47 this computer?
59:48 Your 14-in MacBook Pro.
59:49 I got one window.
59:50 You have one window.
59:52 Yeah.
59:52 Okay.
59:52 What about OS and not Windows, idiot.
59:56 One window, docs at the bottom.
59:58 I could easily move the doc to the side.
59:59 That's totally valid point, but yeah, I I see all my
1:00:02 see?
1:00:02 Can I see?
1:00:03 What about watching videos in a browser?
1:00:05 What about it?
1:00:06 It's wide screen.
1:00:07 You're losing a bunch of real estate, especially on an MKBHD 2 by 1 video.
1:00:12 I watch videos on my phone all the time.
1:00:14 wait, wait, wait, sorry.
1:00:15 I'm watching a video in my browser.
1:00:16 It's a wide screen video.
1:00:18 And then You just vertical tabs is making it smaller.
1:00:21 But you can maximize Oh, no, it's not.
1:00:23 There's still extra horizontal.
1:00:24 There's still white space to the left and right of every video.
1:00:28 Really?
1:00:29 Yeah.
1:00:29 Open up YouTube right now.
1:00:30 You don't maximize left and right.
1:00:32 maximize it.
1:00:32 If I maximize, it's full screen.
1:00:33 Yeah, exactly.
1:00:34 Yeah, I just full screen.
1:00:34 It's whatever.
1:00:35 But here's a Wait, what do you mean?
1:00:37 Yeah, black space, black space to the left and right.
1:00:39 There's
1:00:39 What the heck?
1:00:40 There's just more blank space.
1:00:41 The video is the same size.
1:00:42 Oh, Can you do an MKBHD video?
1:00:44 Yeah, it's 2 by 1 though if I switch to Well, which is what?
1:00:46 Yeah, which is Yeah, which is why it would be
1:00:48 Oh, okay.
1:00:49 Oh, that's what you meant by 2 by 1.
1:00:50 Okay.
1:00:50 So, this is a bluey phone review.
1:00:55 And so now there's this about ooh,
1:00:56 almost perfect, but there's still extra horizontal space.
1:00:59 Yeah, now get rid of it.
1:01:00 Same size video.
1:01:01 Same size video.
1:01:02 I hide my tabs.
1:01:03 I got plenty of horizontal pixels to work with here.
1:01:06 Yeah.
1:01:05 It's all about the vertical space.
1:01:07 If you want your horizontal [laughter] space
1:01:10 If you're outside of theater mode, it does Oh.
1:01:13 Okay, that kind of screws my point up there.
1:01:15 Yeah, the video is the same size.
1:01:16 So, I I'm a big I I agree with David Pierce, I think.
1:01:21 I'm going to read his article,
1:01:21 but I assume he's saying precious vertical pixels.
1:01:24 You need those.
1:01:25 Precious ver- Yeah.
1:01:26 I did do a super super scientific test.
1:01:30 Mhm.
1:01:29 Which is I took a screenshot of my browser with vertical pixel Sorry,
1:01:33 horizontal tabs and vertical tabs.
1:01:36 Mhm.
1:01:36 I brought it into Photoshop.
1:01:37 I took total pixel size and took a percentage of space
1:01:40 inside my browser window and how much it's taking up.
1:01:42 Okay, but Yeah, it's going to take up more space.
1:01:45 Yeah, but you can spare that.
1:01:46 That's like saying I have two bank accounts.
1:01:48 One of them has way more money in it
1:01:49 and I'm spending a larger percentage of the smaller one,
1:01:52 but the smaller one was just for extra stuff.
1:01:54 That's a terrible analogy.
1:01:56 But [laughter] it's like I have a front yard and a back yard.
1:01:58 I got I got one.
1:01:59 I got a front yard and a back yard.
1:02:01 The back yard is smaller, but it's the back yard.
1:02:03 Like I can do whatever.
1:02:04 So, if I have a front yard and I've been putting
1:02:07 like I want to put a sculpture in one of these yards.
1:02:11 Okay.
1:02:11 I can put a way bigger sculpture in the back yard because it's my back yard.
1:02:14 I can do whatever I want.
1:02:15 I got extra grass back there.
1:02:17 The front yard is is is precious.
1:02:20 Used for front yard stuff.
1:02:21 I would I'm bad at this.
1:02:22 I'm saying I'd put a sculpture in the front
1:02:23 yard if I was getting a sculpture cuz Help me out.
1:02:26 What is a good I have a driveway.
1:02:27 I've got a two-car garage.
1:02:29 Horizontal tabs
1:02:31 [laughter]
1:02:31 I got a two-car garage.
1:02:33 And I have a I have a I'm trying to understand what you're saying.
1:02:36 I have a Hummer.
1:02:37 Okay, I have a two-car garage and I have one massive car, a Hummer.
1:02:40 Hummer H1.
1:02:41 If I wanted to build a gym in my garage,
1:02:44 I would build it in the half garage that's not
1:02:46 being used while I still park the Hummer in the big
1:02:50 garage slot.
1:02:50 And how does this relate to the tabs?
1:02:52 Because that half garage is extra.
1:02:55 Right?
1:02:55 So, you're saying it takes a big The gym takes
1:02:58 a huge portion of that second garage spot, but who cares?
1:03:01 It's the second garage spot.
1:03:02 I wasn't using it for anything.
1:03:05 Mhm.
1:03:04 Does that track?
1:03:06 I see what you're saying.
1:03:07 I lost the analogy.
1:03:08 I think the difference what would need to happen is the Hummer
1:03:11 would need to be able to expand to fill the space allotted.
1:03:15 Which is not how Hummers work.
1:03:17 No, the gym
1:03:17 No, yeah.
1:03:18 The gym is what's expanding.
1:03:20 The gym can expand.
1:03:21 a gym in the garage.
1:03:22 Oh, I see.
1:03:22 I see.
1:03:22 I see.
1:03:23 You have a two-car garage.
1:03:24 hummer is the tabs, is what you're saying?
1:03:26 Uh the gym is the tabs.
1:03:29 The gym is the tabs.
1:03:30 tabs don't expand to fill the whole screen, right?
1:03:33 Uh no, but they I mean, they take up more.
1:03:36 You're saying So, Andrew said Okay.
1:03:39 Andrew said that when I switch to vertical tabs,
1:03:41 it's it's turning into blank space way more.
1:03:45 Well, it's overall taking up more space inside of the browser.
1:03:48 The browser is for looking at web pages.
1:03:50 It's taking away more space for the web page.
1:03:53 argument is it's taking up way more space,
1:03:54 but it's taking up a whole bunch of space that you
1:03:56 weren't going to do anything with because every website is vertical.
1:04:00 Not Yes.
1:04:01 Every website Majority of websites have a banner at the top.
1:04:03 Some of these things if I'm also on my uh computer
1:04:08 putting multiple windows next to each
1:04:10 other vertical I'm losing horizontal space.
1:04:12 So, therefore now if there's a vertical tab
1:04:15 list on every single one of those windows, Yeah.
1:04:18 it is destroying real estate
1:04:20 You don't even need to have this argument
1:04:22 if you just do what you're supposed to do,
1:04:24 which is to do the hover thing where the tabs expand.
1:04:26 And the browser that's going to be sunlit or sunset within the next year.
1:04:31 I don't care.
1:04:32 Can you hide [laughter] Can you hide Can you hide your tabs at the top?
1:04:38 Um
1:04:38 have top tabs?
1:04:39 Oh, I don't know.
1:04:40 Can you hide those?
1:04:40 I think you can turn off the like bookmarks bar or whatever.
1:04:44 The Oh, no, wait.
1:04:46 Okay, here's my take.
1:04:47 Look at this.
1:04:48 Look at it Look at your screen.
1:04:49 Look at your screen, Andrew.
1:04:51 Perfect.
1:04:50 There's like there's like 12% of your screen that's being used by useless
1:04:57 Well, you're in a different thing.
1:04:58 You're basically in like a full screen mode.
1:05:01 Me?
1:05:02 Yeah.
1:05:02 Yeah, cuz that's how you should use your computer.
1:05:05 Okay, I have so many takes
1:05:07 I have a way to take
1:05:09 Wait, can I just say the percentages of what I calculated?
1:05:12 Yeah, yeah.
1:05:12 Horizontal tabs took 3% of the total pixels used by my browser window.
1:05:17 Vertical tabs took up 14% of the total pixels of the browser window.
1:05:21 Yeah.
1:05:21 Yeah, whatever.
1:05:22 So, my take is I would argue that's functional space though because
1:05:25 the way that I use my vertical tabs is folders and they're drop down.
1:05:30 So, when you click on one, it pops out underneath.
1:05:32 So, I could see everything.
1:05:34 Let's go.
1:05:34 That's even better.
1:05:35 Can't you do you can do tabs or groups?
1:05:37 waterfalling cascading That's how folders work on your computer.
1:05:41 If you only have like three tabs open,
1:05:44 Yeah, then it doesn't matter.
1:05:45 is the entire sidebar just empty then?
1:05:47 Yes.
1:05:48 And you weren't going to use those pixels anyway.
1:05:50 Cuz I got a blank
1:05:51 And that's why you got to be me and you got to have that so hard to understand?
1:05:54 the amount of tabs that you have open.
1:05:56 Yeah, if I have 20 tabs, it fills up the whole list,
1:05:57 but I I never have that many tabs open.
1:06:00 And this whole left area, which was not going to be used either way,
1:06:03 switched to vertical switched to the top tabs,
1:06:04 it's also still blank cuz the website's in the middle of the screen.
1:06:08 So, those tabs are all white no matter what you do.
1:06:10 So, you might as well have the Well, yeah, just takes up
1:06:14 like eight times as much screen real Unless you hide them.
1:06:17 You say screen real estate like it's precious, but it's blank pixels.
1:06:21 Hide them.
1:06:21 think it's
1:06:23 [laughter]
1:06:22 This all gets solved if you hide them.
1:06:24 I'll hide my dock right now.
1:06:25 I'll hide my dock right now.
1:06:27 I'll hide my dock right now.
1:06:28 Every website scrolls up and down.
1:06:30 I'll do it.
1:06:32 Everyone.
1:06:32 Every single time scrolls vertical.
1:06:34 Turn hiding on.
1:06:35 I need to have a screenshot of my uh Look at that I just want to see your two
1:06:40 web browser windows open with vertical tabs side
1:06:43 by side next to each other doing something.
1:06:47 Yeah, you do have way more You're like
1:06:49 wide screen people are stupid, but I have two
1:06:51 have two monitors.
1:06:52 No more dock for me.
1:06:55 Wow.
1:06:54 It's committing to it.
1:06:55 I'm committing.
1:06:56 I like that.
1:06:57 I don't click on those things.
1:06:58 I just I just do command space.
1:07:00 Actually, yeah.
1:07:00 Wait.
1:07:01 I'm going to do that, too.
1:07:03 I'm going to hide my dock.
1:07:04 Wait a second.
1:07:04 Is this something we can all agree on?
1:07:06 Cuz I'm a Ray Cast guy.
1:07:07 say I can't?
1:07:08 The real end to this whole debate is everyone has
1:07:10 way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want.
1:07:13 Not me.
1:07:13 Well,
1:07:13 I thought it was funny.
1:07:14 Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked Arc in the first place cuz
1:07:16 I have way too many tabs open and it closes them for me.
1:07:19 want Arc, you want an AI browser of Atlassian.
1:07:25 [laughter] Get me my Jira ASAP.
1:07:28 Integrate with my KPIs.
1:07:30 Also, Firefox has had vertical tabs for a while.
1:07:33 Yeah.
1:07:34 [laughter]
1:07:34 All right.
1:07:34 I don't use them.
1:07:35 I'm just saying Firefox is superior.
1:07:37 it's interesting the meme of like the guy
1:07:39 in the party who's like no one here knows that.
1:07:40 I use [laughter] Firefox.
1:07:42 I also
1:07:44 Hiding the duck.
1:07:44 Totally understand.
1:07:45 I'm the last person you should be taking advice for about
1:07:47 No, I'm I'm the last person to use Safari.
1:07:49 My desktop is insane.
1:07:52 It makes no sense.
1:07:53 My on my the Pro Display XDR, I use that big screen real estate by just
1:07:57 having a bunch of different sized aspect ratio windows where
1:08:00 a corner of them's popping out all over so that's
1:08:03 how I can just click between all my different windows.
1:08:05 And I also am running Android Studio.
1:08:09 So because I don't have Instagram on any of my devices
1:08:11 which means I can't share things to my story.
1:08:14 So I now have a virtual Pixel 9 running on my desktop just [laughter]
1:08:18 so I can add things to my story when the studio tags me in it.
1:08:21 I think what we're learning is all
1:08:22 of us have very different habits on our desktops
1:08:24 and we just kind of have to use what works for us, you know?
1:08:27 You didn't let me talk about the most goated Safari feature of them all.
1:08:31 The one that literally is causing Safari to lap all other browser offerings.
1:08:37 Oh god, okay.
1:08:37 ever checked out your reading list?
1:08:40 Oh, no.
1:08:41 I've only ever accidentally clicked that.
1:08:43 You know there's like There's like
1:08:44 8,000 extension Chrome extensions that do that.
1:08:47 Yeah, I use a You can save things to your
1:08:50 I don't even know what that is.
1:08:51 superior bookmark uh aggregation service
1:08:54 with a simple plugin that is multi-platform.
1:08:58 Multi-platform.
1:08:57 That syncs to all your devices.
1:08:59 See, but what if I don't know what background processes that's running.
1:09:03 I don't know what servers it's connecting to.
1:09:06 Wait, okay, before we move on I I have reading list.
1:09:09 I'm on my computer at work and I see
1:09:11 an article that I'm interested in and I'm like Chrome has that.
1:09:14 I do Shut up.
1:09:15 And then [laughter] I'm talking here, okay, buddy?
1:09:19 And then I'm like, damn,
1:09:20 I want to read that, but I'm doing work right now, you know?
1:09:22 And then I get on the bus and I open my phone and I hit reading list
1:09:26 You can do that with Chrome, too.
1:09:27 I get a few I don't care.
1:09:30 [laughter]
1:09:30 You know what You know You know what how many hoops I have to go through?
1:09:33 I have to put my computer on a spit over like
1:09:36 a fire and spin it while doing some like tribal dance.
1:09:39 Just put it in a fridge.
1:09:40 Like Ellis, I understand that you're like
1:09:42 you're like traumatized from the iPhone 12 mini battery life and now you're only
1:09:45 focused on battery life and I understand that.
1:09:47 I'm not focused on I'm focused on RAM.
1:09:49 I'm focused on RAM and I'm focused on I
1:09:51 don't like my browser connecting to random servers
1:09:54 I didn't tell it to because I downloaded
1:09:55 some random extension from somewhere in the world, okay?
1:09:59 Get your viruses.
1:10:01 Yeah.
1:10:01 Yeah, thank thank you.
1:10:02 I want to make my virus soup.
1:10:05 Um I have a quick question for you guys.
1:10:06 What browser do you use on your phones?
1:10:10 Chrome.
1:10:09 That I actually that's a good I have several answers.
1:10:12 Quick question.
1:10:14 No, on my Android phone I use Chrome.
1:10:15 On my iPhone I use Arc and Safari.
1:10:18 What?
1:10:19 Unfortunately.
1:10:19 What [laughter] do you Safari for?
1:10:20 I default to Arc, but I have several tabs that I
1:10:23 leave open in Safari that I always go back to.
1:10:26 Why don't you just have them on Arc?
1:10:29 Uh I don't know.
1:10:32 [laughter] This This conversation's going to end and all
1:10:34 of our audience is going to be like, why do I listen to these people talk?
1:10:37 These are the people I take advice from?
1:10:39 This is just revealing that a lot of us like started habits
1:10:42 that we just didn't think about and now we're like, why are we
1:10:44 Why are we doing this?
1:10:46 [laughter] So, I've tried to switch I've used I didn't
1:10:48 I never tried Arc because I was so annoyed,
1:10:50 but but I've tried every other browser.
1:10:52 I even tried the the Perplexity one, Comet.
1:10:55 Comet.
1:10:55 You know, I I haven't tried Opera GX, either.
1:10:57 Ask me what I use on my phone.
1:10:58 What do you use on your phone?
1:11:00 Safari.
1:11:00 You must if you have three months.
1:11:01 [laughter] Please don't use Safari.
1:11:03 You have the reading list on your phone, right?
1:11:07 Safari music?
1:11:09 Safari music?
1:11:09 Yeah, Safari.
1:11:10 supposed to be Safari.
1:11:10 The Safari icon is the superior icon of everything.
1:11:14 I
1:11:15 Yeah.
1:11:14 I've tried to use a bunch of the browser icons.
1:11:16 Safari's fine, but the reason why I can't go
1:11:18 all in on it is because it's not multi-platform.
1:11:21 Yeah.
1:11:21 Like that's basically it.
1:11:23 Yeah.
1:11:23 Like at home I use a Linux computer.
1:11:24 I can't Download Safari on a Linux computer.
1:11:26 Like that's it.
1:11:27 download on your Android phone.
1:11:29 Yeah, and I can't download on my Android phone
1:11:30 and I switch back and forth all the time.
1:11:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:11:32 I've been weaning off of of Arc slowly.
1:11:35 Why?
1:11:35 I should be leaving Arc soon.
1:11:37 Why?
1:11:36 Uh because the lack of updates,
1:11:38 I just know it's not going to perform well in like a year.
1:11:40 It's going to be a slow crawling mess.
1:11:42 It's been dead for a while, and I still use it.
1:11:45 But do you ever check on other browsers and go,
1:11:47 "Oh, Arc is this slow crawling mess?"
1:11:50 I check on other browsers, but like what do you mean by slow crawling?
1:11:53 Like it takes like 30 years to open.
1:11:55 No, it doesn't take 30 years to open.
1:11:57 Try opening another browser.
1:11:59 [laughter]
1:11:59 See how fast it opens.
1:12:00 My god.
1:12:02 I mean, I think David hit the nail on the head.
1:12:04 It's habit, and all of us are in weird habits,
1:12:06 and a browser is one of those habitual things
1:12:08 you're in so much that any change feels really weird.
1:12:11 Does Arc still sync?
1:12:13 With the mobile?
1:12:14 Uh yeah, yes, yes, yes.
1:12:15 It does?
1:12:15 Yes, yes, yes.
1:12:16 Maybe I'll switch back and hate myself a little more.
1:12:18 It's a good thing none of these browsers have any critical vulnerabilities.
1:12:22 Yeah, that's a great segue.
1:12:24 I think they all do.
1:12:25 They Actually, all do.
1:12:27 They Actually, everything does.
1:12:29 Actually, everything does.
1:12:30 Okay.
1:12:31 Very, very big story dropped
1:12:33 Title of this episode, this podcast has a critical vulnerability.
1:12:37 [laughter] Uh insane story dropped yesterday, Tuesday, April 7th.
1:12:41 Chat GPT's in your car now.
1:12:44 You know, it was going to happen eventually.
1:12:46 Anthropic uh announced that.
1:12:48 a large project uh called Project Glass Wing,
1:12:51 which is a joint cybersecurity effort
1:12:54 to patch various vulnerabilities across different OSs,
1:12:57 across various software.
1:12:59 The reason this is a big deal is because
1:13:00 I think last week or possibly the week before,
1:13:03 we talked about how Anthropic had accidentally leaked a bunch of stuff
1:13:07 that had it had been working on for a very long period of time.
1:13:10 One of those leaks, probably the biggest of those leaks,
1:13:13 was a new model called Mythos that they'd been
1:13:16 working on, which is the biggest model they've ever trained.
1:13:18 It has trillions of parameters.
1:13:19 It is this giant kind of behemoth.
1:13:22 It's a good name.
1:13:23 Yes, very good name.
1:13:24 They trained it specifically to be good at coding.
1:13:27 Something that they found out after they trained
1:13:30 it was not only was it good at coding,
1:13:32 but a side effect of being good at coding was that it
1:13:34 was extremely good at cybersecurity and finding bugs and things like that.
1:13:39 Um they, you know, were messing around with it.
1:13:42 They were like trying to do some cyber sex stuff with it.
1:13:45 They found thousands of high-severity security vulnerabilities,
1:13:48 including some in every major operating system and web browser.
1:13:52 Um and it can chain together various different
1:13:56 security vulnerabilities to come up with more powerful outcomes.
1:13:59 So, for an example, in Linux,
1:14:01 they found various different vulnerabilities that allowed you
1:14:05 to have access to admin access to any Linux
1:14:08 computer by chaining together a a bunch
1:14:11 of these different bugs that is in the Linux kernel.
1:14:13 That's combo.
1:14:15 It
1:14:15 [laughter]
1:14:16 combo break.
1:14:16 Get comboed.
1:14:17 The scary thing, too, is that it did it autonomously.
1:14:20 Autonomously.
1:14:20 Like just by itself.
1:14:21 Allegedly.
1:14:22 Allegedly.
1:14:22 All of this is alleged, by the way,
1:14:23 because they did not they're not releasing this to the public.
1:14:26 Dave and I were talking about how in the Mythos release paper stuff,
1:14:29 like there were a few things
1:14:30 System card, yeah.
1:14:31 Yeah, there were a few things they described as unprompted,
1:14:34 which were like basically prompted.
1:14:37 So, it's definitely prompted.
1:14:38 So, it's like you got to take all this with a little bit of a grain of salt, but
1:14:41 The system card, which is kind of like this mul- it's like 200
1:14:44 and something pages of like what happened
1:14:46 during their testing process of this new model.
1:14:49 There are various things that were kind
1:14:51 of interesting that happened but that they
1:14:52 definitely kind of hyped up a little bit to catch more headlines.
1:14:56 Like for example, they put Mythos in the sandbox environment
1:14:59 and they instructed it to break out of the sandbox environment.
1:15:02 And it did.
1:15:04 And you know, in the little there's this little
1:15:07 like what's what's what's it called when you put
1:15:08 a little ticker above it that says like 10
1:15:10 and then lower down it's like this is what 10 means.
1:15:14 What's that called?
1:15:16 Oh, reference?
1:15:16 Annotation?
1:15:17 They put an annotation [clears throat] and they were like it,
1:15:19 you know, autonomously broke out of here.
1:15:21 You talking about footnotes?
1:15:22 A footnote.
1:15:22 [laughter] Yeah, sorry, footnote.
1:15:24 Not annotation.
1:15:25 the most abstract way I've ever heard it described.
1:15:27 Sorry.
1:15:27 I'm thinking about it in my head.
1:15:29 Yeah.
1:15:29 Uh so in in that one they had said like
1:15:32 the security researcher only realized that it had broken out
1:15:35 of the sandbox when he received an unprompted email from the model
1:15:38 telling it that it had broken out of the sandbox.
1:15:40 And I was like, well, okay,
1:15:41 that is kind of crazy but at the same time like you said it
1:15:44 said when he received an email while he was in the park eating a sandwich,
1:15:47 which is like why did you say that?
1:15:50 What?
1:15:49 And then the other part was like
1:15:51 not just prompted to break out, it was prompted to email them.
1:15:53 to let them know.
1:15:54 Yeah.
1:15:54 So it's like, Yep.
1:15:56 you know, it's it's
1:15:56 even supposed to.
1:15:57 Yeah, it's crazy that it was able to do that.
1:15:59 Like it was able to run JavaScript and figure out a way to like break out
1:16:04 of the sandbox by running specific JavaScript things which
1:16:07 like no one's supposed to be able to do.
1:16:09 But regardless, um anyway, so because this model they found to be so powerful,
1:16:15 they formed this alliance called Project Glass Wing,
1:16:18 which is a multi-company security effort where they're giving
1:16:22 Mythos to a number of different companies because they have
1:16:25 found major security vulnerabilities in every major OS and most
1:16:31 of the platforms like and apps in the world.
1:16:34 So anyway, they're also giving access to 40
1:16:37 different organizations uh to use Mythos previews to be
1:16:40 able to preview to be able to secure
1:16:42 their environments before this kind of cybersecurity AI agent
1:16:45 is unleashed on the world because uh I think if there's one thing we know it's
1:16:49 that if you make software and you say we're
1:16:53 not going to make this available to the public,
1:16:54 it will eventually become available to public either uh because
1:16:58 you decide to eventually release it or because someone else hacks
1:17:01 you or because your OpenAI or Google eventually develops an agent
1:17:07 that's just as powerful and can do the same things.
1:17:09 So, what they're trying to do now is they're basically trying to like secure
1:17:13 major software before agents come out that can
1:17:17 find vulnerabilities in all of this software.
1:17:19 Um yeah, there was also a bug in OpenBSD that has been present
1:17:24 for 27 years that nobody knew about that is able to crash any machine.
1:17:30 Um so, yeah, pretty big pretty big vulnerabilities there.
1:17:33 There There was also one in FFmpeg which is like the
1:17:37 video encoder decoder that every single thing uses.
1:17:39 Exactly.
1:17:40 It's just yeah, it's exactly.
1:17:42 Sorry.
1:17:42 [laughter]
1:17:43 No, you were you explained it so much better
1:17:44 than I was going to be able to, but yeah,
1:17:45 it's it's code that's present in most software
1:17:48 that is able to encode and decode videos
1:17:50 because why would you write it yourself when you can just pull it off the shelf?
1:17:54 So, yeah, essentially most software, it turns out,
1:17:57 had zero-day vulnerabilities that it took a robot to figure out.
1:18:02 Yeah.
1:18:02 So, I think that the kind of scary thing about stuff like this is
1:18:05 that part of the AI race is that there are companies that will say, "Well,
1:18:09 if Anthropic's not going to release this, we're going
1:18:11 to develop a model that's just as powerful and we're
1:18:13 going to release it because we want to gain
1:18:15 market share." That's what people are freaked out about.
1:18:18 And so, that's why Anthropic is trying to like secure this stuff ahead of time.
1:18:22 In my opinion, I don't think they should have even put out
1:18:25 the blog post before they did a lot more work on this.
1:18:29 Um but it's possible they That's where my alarm bells go off.
1:18:32 How would you even tell anyone about this?
1:18:35 Cuz it got leaked.
1:18:35 That's what I was going to Yeah, I think the main reason why they ended up
1:18:38 like talking about it was because it got leaked.
1:18:40 Oh, yeah.
1:18:41 They leaked the whole source code.
1:18:43 Exactly who I want in charge of cybersecurity.
1:18:46 They Right, I know.
1:18:47 They They leaked Opus source code.
1:18:49 Yeah, it wasn't And in And in Opus
1:18:51 they found references to this thing called Mythos.
1:18:54 So, everyone was like, "What the hell is Anthropic Mythos?"
1:18:57 have just been like, "Nothing.
1:18:58 Don't worry about it."
1:18:58 Yeah, they also had little characters that you could
1:19:01 dance around and you could have on your computer,
1:19:02 which is arguably more important.
1:19:05 that I David and I were when we were talking
1:19:06 about this David and I carpool to work on Wednesdays together.
1:19:09 So, we talk about all the pod stuff.
1:19:11 But, the thing that David and I really wanted to talk about is
1:19:13 just that like it's as much as this seems legit and seems freaky deaky,
1:19:19 um you know, they have a financial interest in lying.
1:19:24 So, maybe they're lying.
1:19:25 Maybe they're not.
1:19:26 I don't know.
1:19:26 Yeah, I don't know.
1:19:26 I mean, they got, you know,
1:19:28 12 large corporations and 40 organizations and they they have all these quotes
1:19:32 and they have people in the video talking about how important it was.
1:19:34 One of the best security researchers in the world
1:19:36 said that while he's been using Mythos,
1:19:38 he's found more bugs than in his entire career.
1:19:41 Yeah, I know.
1:19:41 It definitely It definitely seems pretty legit, but I just also know like
1:19:46 You should take all this with a grain
1:19:47 listening to Sam Altman saying he's 1 second away
1:19:49 from curing cancer for the past 2 and 1/2 years.
1:19:51 And so, you know, I'll I'll take it all with a grain of salt.
1:19:54 Don't worry, he bought a podcast.
1:19:55 We're all good.
1:19:56 Oh my [laughter] god, dude.
1:19:59 Yeah.
1:19:59 Speaking of safety.
1:20:02 Speaking of safety.
1:20:03 That's good.
1:20:03 That's good.
1:20:04 Good job.
1:20:05 Nicely done.
1:20:05 I saw this article this release uh today
1:20:09 and I just thought it was a cool little article.
1:20:11 Um Škoda, the car company,
1:20:13 is designing a bell for your bike for the sole
1:20:16 purpose of being able to penetrate active noise canceling.
1:20:20 So, uh the car company released a new bell um and they
1:20:24 are talking in their video uh about the release of it in London,
1:20:28 a city with 1.5 million bike commuters per day,
1:20:31 a a city where 54% of all headphones sold have in active
1:20:35 noise canceling and has also seen a 24% rise in cyclist pedestrian collisions.
1:20:40 They decided that they needed to work on this new bell
1:20:42 because while there is obviously so many variables between pedestrian cyclist,
1:20:46 automobiles and everything,
1:20:48 they believe that the mix of smartphone usage and active noise
1:20:52 canceling is being detrimental to situational
1:20:55 awareness and recognizing alert sounds.
1:20:57 So what they decided they had to do was find a way to make bells on your bike
1:21:03 noticeable by somebody wearing noise canceling headphones.
1:21:06 Um which also this case so there's this big study,
1:21:09 we'll link it in the show notes.
1:21:11 Um LS could potentially make me help me explain this better,
1:21:15 but they essentially tested the top six
1:21:17 most popular headphones with active noise canceling
1:21:20 to try and find a frequency that LS is this the easiest way of describing it?
1:21:25 Active noise canceling essentially looks at the frequencies
1:21:28 that are coming in and then re- plays the reverse.
1:21:31 Plays the reverse version of it to cancel out the noise.
1:21:35 So they found that 750 hertz was a frequency that for whatever
1:21:39 reason ANC just wasn't really able to handle in terms of blocking out.
1:21:43 They found a bunch of things.
1:21:44 They found uh hm okay, so they found they found a few different things.
1:21:48 It's it's uh the first is that um
1:21:51 how cluttered the noise environment that you're
1:21:53 in affects what frequencies the ANC is
1:21:57 better at canceling out ver- versus others.
1:21:59 So when there's a lot of noise going on, certain frequencies are better.
1:22:02 When there's not a lot of noise, other frequencies penetrate better.
1:22:05 Another thing they found was that um tonal frequencies,
1:22:10 like frequencies that have a clear like base
1:22:13 and then harmonic stack on top of them work better
1:22:16 than sounds that are a little bit more random
1:22:18 and chaotic and like what we would call noisy.
1:22:21 Uh there's a there's a bunch of interesting things, but yeah,
1:22:22 largely that that's the big thing is that in a lot
1:22:25 of there are certain situations where 750 hertz works really well
1:22:28 and then there are certain situations where I think it was like
1:22:30 1K or 2K or something like that where swish works really well.
1:22:35 So I thought what it was is that the 750 hertz was the frequency
1:22:38 that ANC basically was not able to counteract
1:22:43 and so that could pierce noise canceling headphones.
1:22:46 Let me I'm I'm Isn't it like a super like a bass?
1:22:49 It it so so the reason this is this is
1:22:51 called the Skeda Duo Bell is because the 750 hertz
1:22:55 can break noise cancellation but that is a very low
1:23:00 noise for people who are not wearing noise canceling headphones.
1:23:04 So that bell just by itself at 750 hertz probably won't
1:23:08 actually alert somebody in an environment that's not wearing the headphones.
1:23:12 So that's why the bell has two different frequencies on it.
1:23:15 One is over 2000 hertz because that is still a general
1:23:19 like bike bell alert sound that people are used to.
1:23:22 So people who aren't wearing headphones it would
1:23:25 be crazy to do this whole thing to help
1:23:27 people with headphones and then make it worse
1:23:29 and not alerting people who aren't wearing the headphones.
1:23:32 I'm just trying to imagine the sound of a bike chime but in a much lower pitch.
1:23:36 I don't know if I would I guess it would be interesting to hear like if I'm
1:23:39 listening to music and it has bass in it that's going to sound like a more bass.
1:23:44 I would assume it's something different you're not used to.
1:23:47 You're wondering what that sound is.
1:23:50 Maybe.
1:23:49 They the way they tested it is through this kind of complicated way.
1:23:53 They like did virtual reality where one person was walking That's 750?
1:23:59 That's 750.
1:23:59 That sounds
1:24:00 higher than I thought.
1:24:04 Okay.
1:24:04 But like if well I guess it's one thing the the whole the bell's all mechanical.
1:24:08 It's not digital.
1:24:10 2000's pretty high.
1:24:11 I was listening to these before to try and see what they sounded like.
1:24:15 But you also have to think of it it has to be in a bell
1:24:16 that goes bring ding bring ding like The way they did it is they tested it
1:24:21 by a person in virtual reality was wearing noise
1:24:24 canceling headphones and was in the in the virtual
1:24:28 reality supposed to be doing something
1:24:30 on their phone to be paying attention to it.
1:24:33 Mhm.
1:24:32 It's hard to imagine these as the bike tone that would be on it,
1:24:35 but that's much louder.
1:24:37 Uh and so in their testing they saw found that people wearing ANC headphones
1:24:43 heard the bell 22 m earlier or 5 seconds sooner than an average person biking,
1:24:48 which is yeah, huge.
1:24:50 Mhm.
1:24:50 So yeah, it's something they're testing in London.
1:24:52 They're planning on expanding it.
1:24:53 I want it because when we are trying to do
1:24:56 water runs in the studio and everyone's wearing headphones,
1:24:58 I want to try and alert everybody.
1:25:00 So we should just put it at the front door so we can just ring ring
1:25:03 ring ring ring ring and everybody can then know we're going to do a water run.
1:25:07 Why were they in VR when they were testing this again?
1:25:10 So they can get that funny money.
1:25:11 [laughter]
1:25:13 Yeah.
1:25:12 Because they were they they weren't just testing was
1:25:15 Yeah, so they weren't they weren't just being like, I how well do you hear this?
1:25:19 They were simulating distractions both in the foreground,
1:25:22 background, and periphery.
1:25:24 And so they were trying to figure like not just how well can you hear something,
1:25:26 but how well does the like ear response actually reach your brain
1:25:31 when cuz you're not riding a bike you're focused [snorts] on stuff.
1:25:35 Well, I guess not riding a bike.
1:25:36 When you're in the world
1:25:37 They're saying people with headphones are generally also a lot
1:25:39 of times looking at their phone and just completely Well, while you're
1:25:42 unaware of what's going on.
1:25:43 Yeah, yeah.
1:25:45 Um one thing in here though is with all
1:25:46 the testing they did create a graph of the AirPods Max,
1:25:50 Bose Quiet Comfort, Sony WH-1000, AirPods Pro, JBL Live Pro,
1:25:54 and Samsung Galaxy Buds and they have a graph of how well the mean
1:25:58 attenuation is and AirPods Max just kind of blow everything out of the water.
1:26:03 a little confused by this because they don't
1:26:05 they don't say which generation of these they use.
1:26:08 That's sort of frustrating.
1:26:09 Like they don't say which Sonys, they don't say which AirPods Pros.
1:26:13 Which AirPods Max?
1:26:14 AirPods Pro.
1:26:14 The Sony I don't know, there is The new ones came out.
1:26:17 a new one, but
1:26:17 I think this happened before that.
1:26:19 That came out like last week.
1:26:20 Yeah.
1:26:20 Just But yeah, none of them have a number.
1:26:22 Yeah.
1:26:23 True.
1:26:23 All right.
1:26:23 Apple's got to be very annoyed.
1:26:24 Like the new Galaxy Buds are way better
1:26:26 than the old ones at noise canceling specifically.
1:26:30 Yeah.
1:26:30 Yeah.
1:26:30 Apple's got to be very annoyed at this chart
1:26:32 because they um they said AirPods Pro and AirPods Max.
1:26:37 And as we know, Apple's very specific guys.
1:26:39 There's a lot about the the Sony WH-1000s they
1:26:43 just get Even they were like, "This name sucks.
1:26:45 I'm not [laughter] listing the whole thing in it." Samsung Galaxy Bud
1:26:48 and just JBL Live Pro all lower case.
1:26:51 of it might also be cuz they're trying
1:26:52 to like not make it about the individual headphones.
1:26:55 Like that's not the point.
1:26:56 The point is just headphones in general, you know.
1:26:58 of our tech podcast is to make it individual.
1:27:01 [laughter]
1:27:00 They do.
1:27:01 They They list to the individual headphones.
1:27:02 They do break it down.
1:27:04 Guys, what's my least favorite thing in the world?
1:27:06 Um the noise of a bee's
1:27:08 is frequency response charts.
1:27:09 It's frequency response charts because there's so much information
1:27:12 about noise canceling that this graph does not show.
1:27:15 So I I'm also not mad that cuz you would not
1:27:17 be able to As much as I want to be like,
1:27:19 "Ellis's AirPods Max are the goat." But it's like um for example,
1:27:24 like the speed of the drivers,
1:27:26 like how fast those drivers can move in and out will
1:27:29 affect how much of sudden sounds are able to be canceled.
1:27:34 Uh the excursion of the drivers,
1:27:36 how far spatially they can move from their resting point is going
1:27:39 to affect like how much like really low booms are able to be canceled.
1:27:43 You know, there's a lot of other features that you can't just be like,
1:27:46 "X frequency is canceled Y amount." Um
1:27:50 Yeah.
1:27:50 If anyone ever sends me a frequency response chart, block my number.
1:27:54 Bro, what do you mean?
1:27:56 It's kind of like an MTF what I said.
1:27:58 It's kind of like an MTF chart for lenses.
1:28:00 It's like when people are like, "The sound stage of headphones." I'm like,
1:28:04 "Miss me." Straight straight up miss me.
1:28:08 Well, um I have many thoughts, but we have to get going.
1:28:11 Adam, you should turn
1:28:11 How I just want to try I want I want the bell and I want to see what it sounds
1:28:15 No, no, it's I I think I mean, we all Andrew,
1:28:17 you and I we always want the bell, baby.
1:28:19 But, you know, like
1:28:19 Taco Bell
1:28:20 What does that mean?
1:28:21 What does that mean?
1:28:22 [laughter] Taco Bell Oh, god.
1:28:23 I got it.
1:28:23 I got it.
1:28:23 I got it.
1:28:23 Yeah, same.
1:28:24 Wait, no, we should I I would be interested in obtaining this
1:28:27 I don't know how we will because it's only in London right now.
1:28:29 But, Skoda, if you're listening I I would fly to learn that the [laughter]
1:28:34 Anyway, Adam, do you want to transition it to us into your rant?
1:28:39 Um Speaking of things that I'm angry about There you go.
1:28:41 There it is.
1:28:42 You're angry at bells?
1:28:43 Um no, not not really.
1:28:45 More so More I'm speaking about it.
1:28:47 No, I'm mad at Ellis's frequency response curve.
1:28:49 Oh, I got Okay.
1:28:50 But, also about Pixel 10A coming out in Japan in blue.
1:28:56 Okay, I have a few questions here.
1:28:58 Okay.
1:28:58 So, if you don't know,
1:28:59 the Pixel 10A got a Japan-exclusive variant that is like a nice blue color.
1:29:04 It has its own cool icons and wallpapers and all this stuff.
1:29:08 It's neat.
1:29:09 Fine.
1:29:10 I'm confused because isn't this just the Pixel 10 color?
1:29:13 Like, the blue looks exactly the same.
1:29:15 Well, that's where that's where you get triggered, the design people.
1:29:20 Okay.
1:29:19 They such a specific blue.
1:29:21 It is a very specific blue and it has a special name and everything,
1:29:24 but I'm looking at it.
1:29:24 And again, we don't have the actual device.
1:29:26 So, I'm looking at it on a screen.
1:29:28 Yep.
1:29:28 And I'm looking at the Pixel 10 that we have here in the office.
1:29:31 And I'm just like it's the same picture.
1:29:33 Yeah.
1:29:34 same picture.
1:29:34 I don't know what it is about these companies that they sort of over
1:29:38 Maybe they overdo like how much they think we care about the exact color.
1:29:42 You know what Motorola does?
1:29:43 They do it like a They have a partnership with Pantone and they'll
1:29:46 do a special edition phone that is in the Pantone color of the year.
1:29:50 As if I've ever met anyone who even knows what that is.
1:29:54 Like, we do have designers here.
1:29:56 remember Cosmic Latte?
1:29:59 No.
1:30:00 [laughter] And like, we have I know that there are people who care about
1:30:03 the Pantone color of the year and those people are a specific person who,
1:30:06 you know, pays attention to colors and new
1:30:08 things like that and that's very exciting to them.
1:30:09 But, does Motorola think that there is
1:30:11 like a huge audience that's like, "Oh man,
1:30:13 I can't wait for the this Pantone color of the year to be
1:30:15 a phone?" I guess they do think that because we get that every year.
1:30:18 And so, here comes Google and they're like,
1:30:19 "We've got this very specific blue." And no,
1:30:21 no, no, it's not the same as the Pixel 10 blue.
1:30:23 It's a certain What are they calling it?
1:30:24 Issey blue?
1:30:25 Am I saying that right?
1:30:27 I Issey?
1:30:27 Issey?
1:30:28 I think it's named after the designer.
1:30:30 Right?
1:30:31 Yeah.
1:30:30 Yeah, it seems like this is less
1:30:31 about the color and more about the collaboration.
1:30:34 Yeah, which that's my next point.
1:30:35 That's a really cool collaboration.
1:30:37 That dude is like a great artist.
1:30:39 Why do we get Wicked and SpongeBob themes here
1:30:42 in the States while Japan [laughter] gets this awesome
1:30:44 I think you know the answer to that question.
1:30:46 Wicked and SpongeBob.
1:30:47 Because people here know about this and people there know about that.
1:30:49 How many How many times do we reference
1:30:51 this guy and how many times do we reference SpongeBob?
1:30:53 That's fair.
1:30:53 That's fair.
1:30:54 Um also, a little annoyed just generally about Pixel availability
1:30:59 just because it just came to Mexico like this past year.
1:31:02 There's multiple countries where not all the features are available.
1:31:05 That's like Pixel stuff is just all over the place and it's very confusing.
1:31:09 Um but, more so, the the main reason why this caught my attention was
1:31:14 because when I saw the article and I clicked the link to watch the video,
1:31:18 the video popped up in 4x3.
1:31:20 Oh, yeah.
1:31:21 And it's from Google Japan YouTube channel
1:31:23 with a 4x3 video and I was like, "What?" Google Japan is so stylish.
1:31:28 so Yeah.
1:31:28 If you go to Google Japan's YouTube channel, everything they do is so awesome.
1:31:31 Yeah, but every other Well, not every other video.
1:31:33 The few the other ones that I clicked on are just regular like 16x9.
1:31:37 This one was 4x3.
1:31:38 And I think it has to do with like the artsiness of it,
1:31:40 but I just found it so interesting because
1:31:42 Google is like the most corporate corporate company.
1:31:47 Yeah.
1:31:47 And They're not as corporate as like Microsoft though.
1:31:49 I would disagree.
1:31:51 Really?
1:31:51 They I think they're very corporate in different ways.
1:31:53 I guess.
1:31:54 But, I think they still have this like idea of whimsy from back in the day,
1:31:57 but they are super corporate.
1:31:58 And the fact that I clicked on a video and it was 4x3.
1:32:01 I was like, "Whoa." Yeah.
1:32:03 Yeah.
1:32:03 That was my random.
1:32:04 I have to I have a correction.
1:32:05 Cosmic latte was not a Pantone.
1:32:08 How dare [laughter] you?
1:32:09 Don't worry, there's already there's already seven comments from people sorry.
1:32:12 Cosmic latte was Remember like a 10 years ago they were like,
1:32:16 "This is the average color of the universe." Whoa.
1:32:19 Cosmic latte?
1:32:20 How do you guys not remember this?
1:32:21 This is like the most market space and color.
1:32:25 That's I In if you can rail against uh frequency response charts,
1:32:29 I'm railing against average average color of the universe.
1:32:31 That's the most useless thing I've ever heard.
1:32:33 What?
1:32:33 The average of the universe?
1:32:34 That sounds like something you'd be you'd be interested in.
1:32:36 But we can only see like The average of the universe is zero.
1:32:39 It's black.
1:32:40 It's nothing.
1:32:41 Black, yeah.
1:32:42 Most of the universe a color?
1:32:43 Is that a lot Not according to Johns Hopkins University, bro.
1:32:46 All right.
1:32:46 All right.
1:32:47 I mean, there's obviously the core of a neutron star,
1:32:49 which is the brightest thing ever.
1:32:50 The average color of the universe is infrared.
1:32:53 No, it's [laughter]
1:32:55 Is in Is it in the visible light range is what you're saying?
1:32:58 Is the average of the universe
1:32:59 Oh, you mean you decompress it into the visible light spectrum.
1:33:01 That seems insane what you're saying.
1:33:03 Look, you know, Marques, I would read about I don't understand this stuff.
1:33:08 [laughter] For those wondering the cos the the Pantone color of the year
1:33:12 It's freaking 2026.
1:33:14 tan, bro.
1:33:15 It sucks.
1:33:16 It's lame.
1:33:16 No, it's blue.
1:33:17 No, it's not.
1:33:18 Cloud dancer.
1:33:19 This year?
1:33:20 That's lit.
1:33:22 11-42-01 What?
1:33:23 What happened to cream?
1:33:24 Yeah, all of a sudden I'm a big fan of Pantone.
1:33:26 That's awesome.
1:33:28 No.
1:33:27 Adam, I looked up the only other Google Japan video I
1:33:30 could ever think of, which is their 2022 April Fools' joke,
1:33:33 which was they just made a keyboard where
1:33:35 all of the letters are one really long stick.
1:33:38 Um and funny enough, it it starts in 4x3,
1:33:41 and then when they announce the board and start swiping down,
1:33:44 it expands to wide screen to put more of the keyboard Damn, that's so cool.
1:33:50 Yeah, that was an April Fools' Day thing.
1:33:51 Before we move on, I Do you guys know about Klein blue?
1:33:55 What is Klein blue?
1:33:56 There's an artist named Yves Klein who made
1:33:58 this painting with this uh paint blue paint
1:34:01 that they mixed themselves and um then they
1:34:04 trademarked it and now they have their own blue.
1:34:07 And when you say it, it's like that's stupid.
1:34:09 Like you can't use this color blue unless you pay this guy Yves Klein.
1:34:12 But then you look at the blue and you're like [laughter] Yeah, dude.
1:34:15 That's a good blue.
1:34:17 This is also a bonus episode.
1:34:18 If you if you click on the Pantone color of the year, it's like please no more.
1:34:22 Here's a paywall.
1:34:22 Sign up for 15,000 colors.
1:34:25 I'm like I What?
1:34:26 What?
1:34:26 Dude, Cloud Dancer, which is the color of the year this year,
1:34:29 it's just like it's beige.
1:34:31 It's literally beige.
1:34:32 There's a really awesome article specific I don't care.
1:34:36 It's beige.
1:34:37 many colors.
1:34:38 There's a There's an awesome article, I think by Mia Sato on The Verge,
1:34:42 where she went to like the Pantone color of the year party.
1:34:45 Wow.
1:34:45 See, this is that's the That sounds lit.
1:34:48 Think of the person who would go.
1:34:50 No, no, no, no, no.
1:34:51 I'd go to that.
1:34:51 I would normally go to that if it was anything but beige.
1:34:55 You would normally go to the Pantone color of the year Of course.
1:34:59 [laughter] Would you not?
1:34:59 That sounds pretty sweet.
1:35:00 That sounds That sounds better than every
1:35:02 South by Southwest party I've ever been I think Pantone gets a bad rap because
1:35:06 they're one of those companies that, you know, is Is evil.
1:35:08 Well, that's the thing is like Paywalling colors.
1:35:10 I get the idea like [laughter] yeah, you're paywalling colors,
1:35:12 but also like thank god they exist, dude.
1:35:16 Because like especially like right now, for example, right?
1:35:19 This should be a bonus episode.
1:35:22 [laughter] I'm trying to I I got a suit jacket for a great price on eBay and I'm
1:35:25 trying to find matching pants and I cannot
1:35:27 find pants that are the exact same color.
1:35:29 Like this color matching has just been And the whole point of Pantone
1:35:32 Is seeing if you can color match.
1:35:34 standardized.
1:35:34 So if you see something on the internet, you can just read that's color 89627.
1:35:38 You open up your book that you paid $10 million for And you can't even the sun.
1:35:43 Yeah, you can't leave it in the sun and then you find 89267 and then you go,
1:35:47 "Okay, now I'm certain." And it standardizes it across different materials,
1:35:50 different finishes, and this whole thing.
1:35:52 We We accidentally know way too much about
1:35:55 this and maybe should actually be a bonus episode,
1:35:57 but I am also fine with trolling Tim and people
1:35:59 who are listening to this by saying there are paywalled colors.
1:36:02 This month's bonus episode is a Q&A.
1:36:04 Link in the description to ask your questions.
1:36:07 Please give us questions cuz we don't have any.
1:36:09 You think people are still listening?
1:36:11 I know.
1:36:11 If you're still listening,
1:36:12 then we want your questions cuz you are in this with us.
1:36:15 So, please.
1:36:16 We have a beautiful domain.
1:36:17 You can go to waveformsurvey.com.
1:36:22 [laughter] We're not reusing that at all.
1:36:24 Not at all.
1:36:25 Look, we we paid for it.
1:36:26 It's It's worth So, to be clear.
1:36:28 to utilize it.
1:36:29 We are going to be doing a bonus episode soon.
1:36:31 If you are still listening this far in the podcast,
1:36:33 you are the type of person we want to answer the questions from.
1:36:36 Go to waveformsurvey.com, ask us questions on an upcoming bonus episode,
1:36:41 we will answer those questions.
1:36:42 But, you know what else has questions and answers?
1:36:44 What is that, Ellis?
1:36:45 You already know.
1:36:47 Oh, I left the fader down.
1:36:50 [laughter] Trivia.
1:36:52 Trivia.
1:36:51 Trivia, dude.
1:36:52 So, we just spoke about Anthropic uh
1:36:54 discovering all these vulnerabilities in Linux specifically.
1:36:58 It's just one of the examples they used.
1:36:59 But, Linus Torvalds, when he initially made Linux,
1:37:02 debated naming it something else.
1:37:04 Was it A, Freaks, a combination of free, [music] freak,
1:37:09 and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix system.
1:37:12 B, Winix, changing the U in Unix to [laughter] to we.
1:37:18 C, Tiger, which was the mascot at the University
1:37:21 of Helsinki where he was at at the time.
1:37:23 Or D, Torvis, a combination of his last name and his first name.
1:37:27 [music] Can you reread the first one?
1:37:29 Yo, your Winix is showing.
1:37:32 Freaks, F R E A X.
1:37:34 No, but you said what was the reason?
1:37:36 It's a A combination of free and freak.
1:37:38 freak and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix-like system.
1:37:42 I like that it's a combination of free and freak when it's just freak.
1:37:46 [laughter] Hey, it's a It's a tough one.
1:37:49 What is that?
1:37:49 Or is it f r e e k?
1:37:51 f r e a x Oh.
1:37:55 Free freak.
1:37:56 It's a It's a nested acronym, bro.
1:37:58 It's fun.
1:38:00 Wow.
1:38:00 Um I like that we have multiple choice trivia.
1:38:02 Thank you.
1:38:02 It narrows my odds to 25%.
1:38:04 Slightly above zero.
1:38:05 Can I say when I was looking up Artemis stuff,
1:38:09 the number of how the furthest distance they were away from the Earth,
1:38:12 and I kept being like, read it four
1:38:15 times cuz I assumed that was going to be a trivia question.
1:38:16 I'm really upset.
1:38:17 This is the first time I was sorry.
1:38:18 Doing research and I was like, that's going to be a trivia question.
1:38:21 You have to remember it.
1:38:22 it?
1:38:22 Was it 252,000?
1:38:23 252 and I think it was like 750 or so.
1:38:26 That would have been a good trivia question.
1:38:27 But well, this is now we know.
1:38:29 Now that we're mentioning multiple choice,
1:38:31 the reason why I wanted specifically to do multiple choices
1:38:34 this week is because YouTube has a feature where you, dear listener on YouTube,
1:38:38 Oh, yeah.
1:38:38 can play along.
1:38:39 No.
1:38:40 And Oh, I'm so excited.
1:38:41 Yes.
1:38:41 What the trivia answers are.
1:38:44 What?
1:38:43 If it doesn't work, then it ignore all of this.
1:38:46 Is [laughter] it new?
1:38:47 Uh as of like a month ago,
1:38:48 and I've been meaning to bring it up for me and Ellis,
1:38:50 but Ellis today just happened to pick a multiple choice question and I was like,
1:38:54 oh, yeah, I'm going to pick one, too, so we could test this out.
1:38:56 So they can do this, but they still can't make it actual uh timestamp UI.
1:39:02 Yeah.
1:39:01 The reason I knew is You remember that headache you woke up with a few days ago?
1:39:05 That [snorts] was you.
1:39:05 He wishes he doesn't.
1:39:06 No, I neuralinked us, bro.
1:39:08 That's why my nose We broke into your house, me and Elon,
1:39:10 we broke into your house, we neuralinked you.
1:39:12 Yeah, well, Glasswing found a couple of vulnerabilities in that.
1:39:15 And Adam Scott.
1:39:16 I neuralinked me, too.
1:39:17 Sorry, that's why I left that word.
1:39:18 We're We're linked neurally.
1:39:20 Okay.
1:39:20 252756.
1:39:22 I was 4 miles off.
1:39:23 the Pantone color?
1:39:25 Yes.
1:39:25 We'll be right back.
1:39:25 We're right We're We're leaving.
1:39:27 It's beige.
1:39:28 But we'll be back.
1:39:32 [music] Support for the show comes from Zapier.
1:39:39 When it comes to bringing AI into your workflows, there's no shortage of hype,
1:39:43 but turning that hype into something real
1:39:45 and actionable starts with the right tools.
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1:39:57 more on what really matters to your company.
1:39:59 You can even connect [music] top AI models, including ChatGPT and Claude,
1:40:03 to whatever tools your team already uses,
1:40:05 so you can incorporate AI exactly where you need it.
1:40:08 That can be workflows, an [music] autonomous agent,
1:40:10 a customer chatbot, or whatever else.
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1:40:30 That's z a p i e r dot com slash wave.
1:40:34 [music] Welcome back.
1:40:37 Whoop update from my rant last week, which first of all, I want to say,
1:40:41 if you enjoy Whoop and you were mad at me for saying that, I'm sorry.
1:40:44 Enjoy your Whoop band.
1:40:45 I'm way more mad at Whoop, the company,
1:40:47 and their pricing, and how insufferable their CEO is.
1:40:51 Um but, after I ranted about that, a bunch of fun stuff came out about Whoop,
1:40:56 which really people were amped that I ranted about it,
1:40:59 despite I didn't know what was going on.
1:41:01 But, Whoop is in the process of suing a company called Bevel,
1:41:05 um who is very similar to an app like Athletic Athletic that you use.
1:41:10 Essentially, an app that can take uh you know,
1:41:15 fitness and activity data from whatever
1:41:18 activity tracker you're using and conclude
1:41:20 it into a different types of sleep data and strain data and recovery,
1:41:24 whatever, all those different things that every single other thing uses,
1:41:27 but Whoop just tells you that they're better at it.
1:41:29 Um but, some of the reasons for why they're suing them is just very funny.
1:41:35 Um do you remember the uh Fine Bros?
1:41:39 Yeah, the Fine Brothers when they tried to They tried to trademark reacts.
1:41:43 Yeah, because they long story, but they wanted to own the concept.
1:41:48 They basically wanted to own the word react.
1:41:51 Yeah.
1:41:50 Yeah.
1:41:50 Just remember that in some of the what I'll say here.
1:41:53 So, Bevel released a video going over a couple of the things of when
1:41:56 Whoop sent them a cease and desist and now this most recent uh lawsuits.
1:42:03 Wow, total brain We are very far into this episode and it is showing.
1:42:07 Um, so in their first cease and desist they asked
1:42:09 Bevel to disable dark mode and change the name of strain
1:42:14 and recovery as the names of metrics in their app
1:42:17 because I guess those are things that only Whoop can do.
1:42:20 Strain and recovery.
1:42:21 Strain and recovery.
1:42:21 So, the funny thing about this is uh Whoop only has one color background,
1:42:26 which is dark a dark gray.
1:42:29 Uh Bevel has light mode and dark mode
1:42:31 like every single other app that's ever been made.
1:42:36 Um, but and and light mode is their default,
1:42:39 but I guess Whoop doesn't like their dark
1:42:41 mode cuz it looks too similar to Whoop's.
1:42:43 Um, and they also don't like the names strain and recovery
1:42:46 because I guess those are metrics that Whoop wants to own.
1:42:50 Those are things that they've named uh the the compilation
1:42:54 of those metrics might be totally different in Bevel's app,
1:42:56 but uh they probably feel like they want like the word
1:43:01 recov- like everyone I know who has a Whoop is like,
1:43:02 "What's your recovery score?" This is my recovery score.
1:43:04 How's your recovery?
1:43:05 That's all they talk about is the recovery.
1:43:07 So, I can imagine an upstart trying to steal
1:43:10 users from Whoop also using the word recovery very intentionally.
1:43:13 It's one of those things though when you start focusing
1:43:15 too much on a word that has been around forever.
1:43:19 Yeah.
1:43:18 It's just a pretty common word that fits in there.
1:43:21 brick your computer into recovery, are they going to sue you?
1:43:24 Let's quick caveat though,
1:43:26 and this is not me defending this, but it's a trademark and not a copyright,
1:43:29 which means part of the nature of a trademark if they're if
1:43:32 they're attempting to trademark this, they're trademarking its use in a specific
1:43:37 context.
1:43:37 For example, Yeah.
1:43:38 Here's a great example.
1:43:39 I could release I don't know, give me a body battery.
1:43:44 No, no.
1:43:44 Well, I'm I'm going to take it another industry.
1:43:46 I could release a line of protein
1:43:48 supplements that I call Ellis's 1989 super protein,
1:43:53 but I cannot sing a song in which I say the line,
1:43:56 I would like to party like it's 1989 because
1:43:59 Taylor Swift has the number 1989 trademarked for musical purposes.
1:44:03 She does?
1:44:04 Yes.
1:44:04 You can do that?
1:44:07 Yes.
1:44:05 I don't like that.
1:44:06 So, me.
1:44:08 [snorts] Yeah.
1:44:10 Wow, that's lame.
1:44:12 Yeah, I mean, if this is everyone's going to hate
1:44:14 like Whoop's doing them because obviously punching down looks terrible,
1:44:18 but at the same time there's going to be a lot
1:44:20 of companies and I have no idea what Bevel's doing.
1:44:22 I should probably be more focused on it, but you know,
1:44:24 there are going to be companies that are going to try to specifically
1:44:26 steal users from Whoop probably by mimicking a lot of their features.
1:44:29 Here's a couple of their claims that I'll read out loud.
1:44:31 Um, they claim that their home screen looks too much like theirs,
1:44:33 that both apps use rings to represent
1:44:36 user strain and recovery scores near the top.
1:44:38 Those rings are colorful circle circular bars
1:44:40 that increase clockwise and there's a coaching
1:44:42 feature in a rectangular in a rectangle
1:44:44 using rounded edges and a dark gray background.
1:44:47 So, rings with colorful I mean, So, like every health metric ever.
1:44:53 Chief Fitbit uses it, Apple uses it, Garmin uses it,
1:44:56 all rings with colors that because colors and strain,
1:44:59 green and red are pretty common.
1:45:01 Green, yellow, red is how most of that happens.
1:45:03 A rectangle using rounded edges is a hilarious way of saying a button.
1:45:08 Every button ever that's been made.
1:45:11 Um, they said that Bevel's app updated the home screen and uh
1:45:15 it's obviously confusing and substantially similar to the Whoop app home screen.
1:45:19 The only problem So, the way the home screen looks it has three
1:45:22 circles with the three different scores on the top.
1:45:24 When you go into it,
1:45:26 Bevel originally had it separated into three rings and Whoop for a long time
1:45:29 was actually only one ring and then updated their app after Bevel already had
1:45:34 that and now has the three rings to the point where when they updated
1:45:38 it there was people commenting on it
1:45:39 saying like looks like you're copying Bevel.
1:45:42 But now they're suing them saying it looks too much the same.
1:45:45 Um there's a section that says both apps
1:45:47 use a crescent moon icon to denote sleep.
1:45:52 [laughter] Denote you mean?
1:45:53 Denote denote yeah, sorry.
1:45:56 But to indicate sleep I think a moon
1:45:58 and sleep is pretty synonymous with each other.
1:46:00 Maybe some Z's.
1:46:02 Yeah, and I think my biggest thing here is
1:46:04 which is I'm sure in the trademark lawyer world totally
1:46:08 fine but kind of stupid I think is saying
1:46:11 the design's similar and could potentially confuse people into Whoop's UI.
1:46:15 But Whoop is a thing that only exists when you are using the product.
1:46:19 Nobody is getting confused if you don't have
1:46:22 a Whoop band and go into the Bevel app.
1:46:26 Like It literally has to Yeah.
1:46:29 [laughter] No one's like buying a Whoop down like you know using it
1:46:32 and doing the setup and then accidentally in Bevel and being like oh sh
1:46:39 Also Is that really a problem?
1:46:40 Like they're not stealing users.
1:46:43 Like the copyright thing is usually like are
1:46:45 you replacing this or are you supplementing it?
1:46:47 If you are replacing revenue that's going to that company then it's a problem.
1:46:52 If you're not and it's just supplemental it's usually not as much of a problem.
1:46:55 They're a competitor so yeah.
1:46:57 Yeah, well does Bevel have like a band
1:46:59 or anything or does it just take your existing fitness
1:47:02 As far as I know it's only an app.
1:47:03 Can it take the existing Can it take the metrics from Whoop?
1:47:06 Probably but I don't know that for sure and actually
1:47:10 I wouldn't be surprised if Whoop doesn't let them.
1:47:11 I was going to say Whoop probably has that locked down.
1:47:14 know how Athletic and Bevel work I just know that they can be
1:47:17 used with different you know trackers whether it's a ring whether it's a watch,
1:47:22 whether it's whatever.
1:47:23 Anything, but possibly not.
1:47:25 Possibly not Whoop.
1:47:26 I'm not sure.
1:47:27 So yeah, I don't know.
1:47:27 This really just feels a lot like the Fine Bros trying to trademark Whoop.
1:47:32 Well, we know how that ended.
1:47:33 Yeah, didn't end great.
1:47:34 This is I mean, this is great for Bevel because they they were all over Twitter
1:47:38 and probably got way I've never heard of them
1:47:40 before and probably more people know about Bevel now.
1:47:44 Yeah.
1:47:43 it doesn't go too deep, but I think trademarking recovery and strain seems like
1:47:48 an absolutely insane thing and a really lame thing to do,
1:47:51 which feels pretty on point for Whoop.
1:47:54 Quick clarification.
1:47:55 Shut up.
1:47:56 While Taylor Swift does have the number 1989 trademarked,
1:47:59 the specific trademark violation is she also
1:48:02 has the phrase party like it's 1989.
1:48:05 Oh.
1:48:05 Uh she does have the phrase the number 1989 trademarked.
1:48:08 As well as I found out in making sure I was
1:48:10 correct on that, she has the phrase this sick beat trademarked.
1:48:14 No.
1:48:14 Hell yeah.
1:48:15 What?
1:48:15 Is it cuz it's the best song?
1:48:16 Is it cuz she says it special?
1:48:19 Sick beat.
1:48:21 [laughter] Yeah, I like that.
1:48:21 I think I don't know.
1:48:23 Trademark.
1:48:24 Trademarks are really stupid, but I I do I do understand why they're something.
1:48:30 Well, and it's it's they're different than like they're different than
1:48:32 copyrights because it's your right to do business as a thing, essentially.
1:48:36 You know what I mean?
1:48:37 Like I I don't know.
1:48:39 I I think it's
1:48:40 I also just want to say Taylor Swift was was born on December 13th,
1:48:43 1989 and to imply that she was partying at that age is just bull.
1:48:48 She was at the most She was writhing.
1:48:51 She was rude that.
1:48:53 That's a party to some people.
1:48:54 Wasn't even sentient.
1:48:56 She was not even sentient yet, bro.
1:48:58 She was training her AI model in the early stages.
1:49:01 On a list of recent trademarks,
1:49:02 she had recently gotten female rage colon the musical,
1:49:05 which I don't even know what that's about.
1:49:08 Um Me neither.
1:49:09 But comment down below if you do know what that's about.
1:49:12 I don't know.
1:49:13 But you know what I do know lots about?
1:49:15 What is that?
1:49:16 The answers to the trivia questions you wrote?
1:49:17 [music] With the fader up this time.
1:49:19 Nice.
1:49:20 I like that.
1:49:21 I like that.
1:49:22 Waveform episode 345 trivia question number one.
1:49:25 That was me pretending to be Jason.
1:49:29 Derulo?
1:49:31 Sure.
1:49:30 That's a sick username jace.jasondurulo.
1:49:33 someone already has that.
1:49:34 That has to be a real thing, right?
1:49:36 That's pretty good.
1:49:38 Um We'd get sued.
1:49:40 [laughter] Trademark.
1:49:41 Where does Anthropic's Project Glasswing get its name?
1:49:44 A.
1:49:45 An experimental F1 rear wing design from the ground effect [music] era.
1:49:50 B.
1:49:51 A Central American butterfly with transparent wings.
1:49:54 [music] C.
1:49:56 A type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopy.
1:50:03 Or D.
1:50:03 [music] It's an acronym.
1:50:05 General Layer Analysis.
1:50:07 Excuse me.
1:50:08 General Layer Analysis Screening with integrated neural GPTs.
1:50:15 The whole time I you were saying Glasswing,
1:50:17 I just kept thinking of DuckTales for some reason.
1:50:19 That's all I could think of.
1:50:20 Don't know why.
1:50:21 Is there a Darkwing Darkwing Duck?
1:50:23 Is that Okay, that's what I was thinking of.
1:50:26 Wow, what a reference.
1:50:28 Wow, we all said the same thing.
1:50:30 What did you guys say?
1:50:31 All three of us said butterfly.
1:50:33 David drew a tooth for some reason.
1:50:35 Guys, I think that [laughter] That means I'm getting worse.
1:50:39 to be an artist.
1:50:41 Cuz you're all correct.
1:50:42 [laughter] On the blog post, they have a picture of a butterfly.
1:50:46 Oh, boo.
1:50:47 [laughter] I didn't go to it during the podcast, but I when I was reading it
1:50:49 But am I losing my sauce?
1:50:51 No, thank god, Alex.
1:50:53 Am I I I used to be I used to deliver four bangers.
1:50:56 Yeah, but we never get We never get points.
1:51:00 On Anthropic.
1:51:01 On Anthropic.
1:51:01 Well, all three of you got points, so it's as if none of you got points.
1:51:05 So, I still failed.
1:51:07 That's true.
1:51:08 Um it's called Glasswing from the butterfly because also all none
1:51:11 of those other three things are real I made them all up.
1:51:14 Yeah, I figured.
1:51:15 Uh the metaphor can This is from Anthropic's actual website in a in a what
1:51:20 a one up here and what does the one mean down there?
1:51:23 Um [laughter] a footnote.
1:51:25 Uh the metaphor can be applied in two ways.
1:51:28 The butterfly's transparent wings let it hide in plain
1:51:30 sight much like the vulnerabilities discussed in this post.
1:51:35 Danger.
1:51:35 Semicolon, they also allow it to evade harm
1:51:37 like the transparency we're advocating for in our approach.
1:51:42 Transparency, wow.
1:51:43 Wow.
1:51:44 Did they back around their way into that or what?
1:51:48 They probably asked Claude.
1:51:49 Somebody got a raise for coming up with that line.
1:51:51 Claude got a raise.
1:51:53 [laughter] What should we name this, Claude?
1:51:55 All right, quick update on the score after that correct question.
1:52:00 Yeah.
1:52:00 Marquez with 21.
1:52:02 Andrew with 22.
1:52:04 David in the lead with 25.
1:52:07 I'm not a rapper.
1:52:08 Damn, hey that's a trademark.
1:52:10 Trade my box.
1:52:11 Careful, careful, careful.
1:52:15 [laughter] All right.
1:52:15 When he initially made Linux, Linus Torvalds debated naming it something else.
1:52:20 Was it A, Freaks.
1:52:23 B, Winnix.
1:52:25 C, [snorts] [laughter] Tiger.
1:52:29 Or D, Torvis.
1:52:31 You know what's crazy?
1:52:32 He There's one thing that [music] Adam left off there
1:52:35 which he was also considering which was Linus Tech Tips.
1:52:42 He was way early.
1:52:44 Uh I don't know.
1:52:47 Flip them and read.
1:52:48 What do we got?
1:52:49 Oh, wow.
1:52:50 Wow.
1:52:50 [laughter] Wow, you guys are locked in today.
1:52:51 Yeah, we're locked in.
1:52:52 We're neural linked.
1:52:55 Yeah.
1:52:54 All of us said D.
1:52:56 Torvalds.
1:52:58 Nope.
1:52:58 Was it B?
1:52:59 It was not B.
1:53:00 Oh, good.
1:53:01 It was also not C.
1:53:02 It was A, Freaks.
1:53:03 No way.
1:53:06 Yep.
1:53:05 Well, I'm glad he didn't do that.
1:53:07 Hmm.
1:53:08 F R E A X?
1:53:11 Yes.
1:53:11 That is simply a bad acronym.
1:53:12 Is that a reference to phone freaking or is that just like you're a freak?
1:53:16 What's phone freaking?
1:53:17 Really fast, 30-second definition.
1:53:19 Um phone old analog like landline phone dialers actually work by tones.
1:53:23 Like you have a thing like each button creates a tone and then that tone,
1:53:27 you know, does some program on the other side of the thing.
1:53:29 So, someone realized you could hack into phones
1:53:31 by generating tones and that was called yeah, phone freaking.
1:53:34 Yeah, but it's free.
1:53:35 Yeah.
1:53:35 Phone freaking was p h r e a k i n g.
1:53:39 Yeah.
1:53:38 Okay, so this was not that.
1:53:40 It was the cool version.
1:53:42 Yeah.
1:53:42 It was Taylor's version.
1:53:43 No, THAT'S ALSO TAYLOR'S VERSION.
1:53:44 OH, NO.
1:53:45 CAREFUL, TAYLOR.
1:53:45 CAREFUL.
1:53:46 LAWSUIT.
1:53:46 LAWSUIT.
1:53:47 LAWSUIT.
1:53:47 LAWSUIT.
1:53:49 And with that, the podcast was finally over.
1:53:52 Again, if you have questions for us,
1:53:54 the comment section's always open, but if you made it this far,
1:53:58 you can of course go to waveformsurvey.com and ask us whatever you want
1:54:03 because we're going to do a bonus
1:54:04 episode where we actually answer those questions.
1:54:06 So, take your time, come up with the best questions you possibly can.
1:54:09 Leave your whatever questions down below,
1:54:11 but come up with the best questions for waveformsurvey.com [music]
1:54:14 and they'll be answered on our bonus episode.
1:54:15 Other than that, thanks for watching.
1:54:17 Hopefully the astronauts touch down safely in the ocean.
1:54:20 Wait.
1:54:20 Wait.
1:54:20 That's waveform with vowels, not without vowels.
1:54:23 That's wave w a v e f o r m.
1:54:25 Yes.
1:54:25 Good clarification.
1:54:26 Hopefully now they found it.
1:54:28 I don't know whatever freak website you went to before,
1:54:30 but now they found the correct survey website.
1:54:33 All right.
1:54:34 Catch you next week.
1:54:35 Peace.
1:54:35 Waveform is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Rosen and partner with Vox
1:54:38 Media Podcast Network and our intro and outro music was created by Vince Seil.
1:54:41 You did that early, Adam.
1:54:42 Feed run.
1:54:50 [music] Are you looking at the lucky glass thing?
1:54:51 No, I'm looking at cosmic latte, which is the average It is See,
1:54:55 it is You have to read this very carefully.
1:54:58 The It describes the average color of the galaxy
1:55:00 of the universe as perceived by a typical human observer,
1:55:03 which to me says that the average
1:55:05 is not actually in the visible wavelength typically.