Is this mineral in your make-up? - What in the World podcast, BBC World Service

0:00 Hey, guys, I'm Iqra, and this is What in the World from the BBC World Service.

0:04 Today we're talking talc.

0:06 That white powder is sometimes found in makeup.

0:09 There's been a lot of chat recently about how safe it is.

0:13 So in this episode, we're going to chat all about that.

0:16 We're going to figure out why it's in so many of our makeup

0:19 and cosmetic products and whether we should be avoiding it too.

0:26 Okay, so let's get into it.

0:27 I'm with BBC journalist Phoebe Keane,

0:29 who produced a podcast series called Talc Tales.

0:32 She's done a lot of research in this area.

0:35 Hey, Phoebe.

0:35 Hello.

0:36 So, Phoebe, before we sat down,

0:38 I was having a look for talc in some of my makeup products.

0:42 It's in my blush, it's in my powder, and I was quite surprised about that.

0:46 What is talc?

0:47 Yeah.

0:47 So talc is actually a mineral.

0:49 So that means it's naturally formed in the earth.

0:52 So it's like to me and you, it would just look like chalky rock.

0:56 So yeah, it's a rock and you mine for it.

0:58 And why is it in so many of our makeup products?

1:02 Yeah.

1:02 So it's useful because it absorbs moisture.

1:04 So that's why it was originally in talcum powder.

1:07 So you know, that's what people put on after a shower.

1:09 Nappy changes.

1:10 So it absorbs moisture.

1:12 But it also with kind of face powders and eyeshadows,

1:15 it helps products glide on smoothly and stops it caking.

1:19 So that's why it's used in face products too.

1:21 And then there's been a lot of chat around the dangers of talc.

1:25 So we'll get into some of that.

1:27 I've seen a lot of videos online of people, I guess,

1:29 throwing away their makeup because they have talc in them.

1:33 So the main concern is that there's a risk of contamination with asbestos.

1:39 So asbestos is the commercial name

1:41 for something that's actually made of six minerals.

1:45 So these minerals are naturally formed in the ground just like talc.

1:50 And so talc and the asbestos minerals are formed under the same conditions.

1:55 And they're made of the same chemical elements.

1:58 So they're very, very, very similar and often found together in the ground.

2:03 So if you're mining for talc, there could be asbestos in the mine too.

2:07 And so when asbestos contaminates talc, what's wrong with that?

2:11 What does it do?

2:12 Yes.

2:12 So asbestos used to be seen as a wonder material.

2:16 It's fire resistant.

2:18 It's used in insulation.

2:20 It was used in buildings all around the world.

2:22 But in the 1990s the evidence mounted that it causes cancer.

2:26 So there was lots and lots of evidence that it causes lung cancer,

2:30 mesothelioma and other chronic diseases.

2:32 And now that's because asbestos is formed

2:35 of tiny microscopic fibres and they look like needles.

2:40 So they're long and thin and pointy and they're microscopic.

2:43 And so we can breathe them in.

2:45 And then when we breathe them in, they can get right

2:49 down deep into the lungs and the linings of our body.

2:53 And as they're fire resistant,

2:54 our body really struggles to get rid of them so they can

2:58 stay there and cause a genetic mutation that eventually lead to cancer.

3:02 So asbestos was banned in the 90s in the UK.

3:05 And then since then, 50 other countries around the world have banned it.

3:09 It's not banned everywhere.

3:10 You know, some countries still mine for asbestos.

3:12 I think Pakistan still mines for asbestos.

3:14 So it's legal to use asbestos there.

3:16 But broadly speaking it's banned and it's seen

3:19 as a category one carcinogen by the World Health Organization.

3:22 And so can we test for asbestos in talc then?

3:26 Yeah.

3:27 So there are different methods of testing the talc for asbestos.

3:31 The global industry standard though is something called X-ray diffraction.

3:35 And the experts that I spoke to said that isn't the most sensitive method.

3:40 And the experts I spoke to said that using that method,

3:45 thousands of asbestos fibres could still be

3:48 in the talc and slip through undetected.

3:51 So it's useful for industry because they're using

3:53 lots and lots of talc because it's quick,

3:56 but it's not the most sensitive method.

3:59 So there might still be asbestos fibres in the talc using that method.

4:03 There are more sensitive testing methods.

4:06 So there's transmission electron microscopy.

4:08 So I had some products tested using that method.

4:11 And it takes a while.

4:12 It does take a long time.

4:14 So they you know, they have to put the powder in a solution,

4:17 do lots of, you know, complicated things.

4:20 And then the amount that they look under the microscope,

4:23 it's the size of a sequin.

4:25 So the microscope slide is the size of a sequin.

4:27 It's tiny.

4:28 Looking under the microscope using that method

4:30 you can then see the asbestos fibers.

4:32 So you know when I had some products tested,

4:35 I had eight products tested that I use regularly,

4:38 brought new versions obviously.

4:39 Out of eight of the products,

4:41 two of the products they found in asbestos fibre in.

4:45 So it's really interesting looking in the lab at Brunel University, you know,

4:49 you can see this microscope slide and there are all

4:52 these particles and then there's this, this needle and it's quite,

4:55 you know, it's quite obvious it's an asbestos fibre.

4:57 It's quite sharp looking, but that's the most sensitive method.

5:00 And it took time.

5:01 If you're a big company and using lots of talc.

5:03 It would be time consuming to use that method.

5:06 And another issue that was raised by lots of the experts is

5:09 that they don't specify how much talc you should test and how regularly.

5:15 So you could just test one batch of talc

5:20 at the start of the year using that method.

5:23 And then you wouldn't need to test the rest

5:26 of the talc that you process for the rest of the year.

5:28 And you could technically say that you're adhering to the industry standard.

5:32 Okay, so talc on its own is fine,

5:35 but sometimes it can be found alongside asbestos,

5:37 and it can be hard to separate the two

5:39 and to test for asbestos in talc products.

5:43 And for people listening,

5:44 you might have heard of some of the legal cases in this area,

5:47 in particular against Johnson& Johnson, the pharmaceutical company.

5:51 So this issue has been highlighted by a case that happened in 2018,

5:55 in which a jury found Johnson& Johnson's talcum powder contained asbestos,

6:00 and that the company had failed to warn users

6:02 of the risk of harm posed by the asbestos.

6:05 The jury found this failure caused or directly contributed

6:08 to the death or the cancers affecting 22 women.

6:13 The company was ordered to pay two billion USD

6:16 in damages and there have been many other cases,

6:20 though some juries have found the opposite

6:22 of this, that there was no asbestos in their products.

6:25 So Johnson& Johnson stopped using talc in its baby powder back in 2023.

6:30 They say the product was safe and say the sales were declining due

6:34 to misinformation around the safety of the product

6:37 and a constant barrage of litigation advertising.

6:41 Moving on to the actual health risks,

6:44 what are the health risks of using talc based cosmetic products?

6:48 In July 2024, the World Health

6:51 Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer,

6:54 they looked at all of the studies that have been done,

6:57 and they classified talc as probably carcinogenic to humans.

7:01 So probably cancer causing.

7:04 But it said a confounding factor that couldn't be ruled out was asbestos.

7:09 They said asbestos has been reported to be

7:11 present in some talc products as a contaminant,

7:14 and industry standards used to assess talc based cosmetics

7:18 have often been insufficiently sensitive to rule out asbestos contamination.

7:24 On that really specific question, if you use a blusher that has talc in it,

7:29 you know, should you be worried?

7:31 So I turned to Dr Astero Klampatsa

7:35 at the Institute for Cancer Research in London.

7:37 So I asked her if we know how many asbestos fibres it takes to cause cancer,

7:42 and she said, no, we don't know how many fibres it takes to cause cancer.

7:46 And she said, that's quite a hard thing to know.

7:49 But she does say that cases of cancer have occurred after a really

7:53 brief exposure to asbestos or exposure to a really low level of asbestos.

7:57 And so she says the only real way to say that we're

8:00 in a safe level is to say there is no asbestos at all.

8:05 The World Health Organization also says there is

8:07 no known safe level of exposure to asbestos.

8:11 She said that, you know, using a beauty product that might contain one

8:14 or a few fibres of asbestos poses minimal risk.

8:18 But there is a risk.

8:19 If you use that product over time continuously,

8:23 then the risk increases because it's additive.

8:26 So every time you use it, the risk goes up.

8:29 But even with multiple uses, overall the risk is low.

8:34 But then she said, you know,

8:36 saying all that, she would advise against any unnecessary exposure

8:40 to asbestos and she personally would use a talc free product.

8:43 It's worth saying not everyone agrees with the health risks of using talc.

8:47 As we've said, it's difficult to test.

8:50 Several companies, including Johnson& Johnson, Chanel and L'Oreal,

8:54 have been quietly moving away from using talc based products in recent years.

8:59 But do consumers care about this?

9:02 We reached out to Savannah, who is a PhD student.

9:05 Let's have a listen to her take.

9:07 The reasons I continue to use talc and I am not afraid of it are, I'm selfish.

9:12 It works for me.

9:13 It looks really good whenever I use it.

9:15 I really like talc and I do think there is a way to use it responsibly.

9:22 So I think going forward,

9:24 if we want to keep products with talc on the market, on the market,

9:29 rules are going to have to be put in place

9:32 so that companies are ensuring that their talc is asbestos free.

9:37 We also reached out to Jen Novakovich.

9:40 She is a cosmetic scientist.

9:42 She's one of the people who doesn't think that using

9:45 talc is risky and doesn't think people need to worry.

9:48 She did give us some alternatives that people could use instead.

9:52 Common alternatives include different starches like corn or tapioca.

9:56 While these won't have quite the performance of talc

9:59 and will almost certainly translate to a more expensive final product,

10:04 if you're someone looking for alternatives, there are options.

10:08 Thank you so much for running us through that Phoebe.

10:11 You're welcome.

10:12 Okay.

10:12 Thank you so much for joining us today.

10:14 Make sure you comment below, like and subscribe at any time.

10:18 Always waiting for your comments.

10:20 Always keen to read them.

10:21 And speaking of them before we go, I wanted to shout out some of the comments

10:24 you've been leaving on our YouTube video all about Looksmaxxing.

10:28 And this one says, for me,

10:30 Looksmaxxing is taking daily or more showers, brushing my teeth,

10:34 often using a nice perfume or Cologne,

10:36 being nice to others and living a happy life.

10:39 So thank you for that one.

10:40 And I can see there is a lot of chat

10:42 about how women have faced similar pressures with their looks too.

10:46 So as always, your comments are always appreciated.

10:49 Make sure you reach out to us on Instagram too at @bbcwhatintheworld over there.

10:54 But for now I'm Iqra, this is What in the World from the BBC World Service.

10:58 I'll see you guys next time.

11:00 Bye.