RZA on One Spoon of Chocolate & Turning Hip-Hop Into Cinema | B-Side with Sheila Matthews | Andscape

0:00 All right, everybody.

0:01 Welcome to a new episode of Bides.

0:03 I'm your host, Sheila Matthews with ESPN's Anscape.

0:06 And today, y'all, we have a legend in the building,

0:09 a hip-hop architect, filmmaker, producer, all the things.

0:12 Thoriza, what's going on?

0:14 Bong bong.

0:15 Peace.

0:16 Yes.

0:16 So excited to sit down and talk with you today because it's so funny.

0:19 Like this time last week, I had no clue this interview was happening,

0:22 but I'm at the movies with my friends.

0:24 We're walking out.

0:24 We see a huge poster.

0:25 We're like, does this see the RZA Quinton Tarantino?

0:28 like we were so like taken a back shocked

0:31 and I was with the New Yorker so you know it

0:33 was like a hype moment everyone's taking pictures like a we

0:35 got to go see this and then this lands here

0:37 so talk to me about your movie one spoon

0:40 of chocolate it's out now so y'all get to the theaters

0:43 and see it but what was that initial spark or moment

0:45 that made you say yeah this story needs to be told

0:49 I mean I first started writing it in 2011

0:52 and I got writer's block I got stuck but in 2023

0:55 traveling across the country on the back of a tour

0:58 bus with uh with the Wuang and Nas,

1:01 the the story just poured into me and I knew that um

1:06 like when art knocks on your door, you got to answer.

1:08 So, I had to just get it out.

1:10 So, it went from story, the script, this the production,

1:14 and now we in the theaters and I'm so happy for this journey.

1:18 No, and that's so interesting because you said it's been over a decade.

1:21 It's 2026 and I think that just gave me room for pause, right?

1:25 because I am definitely of the social media popcorn generation where I'm like,

1:29 you know, I'm I'm making it.

1:31 Y'all going to consume it and like it today.

1:33 So, talk to bit about that journey of letting

1:35 your art breathe and giving the patience necessary to create.

1:39 Well, I think art does that on its own.

1:41 Like, of course, we are definitely in the immediate generation,

1:45 but some things it just takes time to evolve or develop.

1:49 you know if you plant a seed in the soil you got to wait

1:51 for that for that seed to sprout and give

1:54 you give you a plant and sometime artists like that.

1:57 So this so I did many things in between time

2:00 but this particular story this particular film uh it just

2:04 was incubating and I I think it was like let

2:07 me know like I'mma let you know when I'm ready.

2:09 It ain't gonna be ready until it tells me and here we are now it's ready.

2:14 Yeah.

2:14 So when art tells you personally that it's ready,

2:16 what does that feel like or look like for you?

2:18 Uh it's it's a it's like a elation or what you know you get elated, you know.

2:23 Um it's almost like you can't sleep.

2:25 You keep you keep thinking about it.

2:27 Um you you're willing to give the 18 hours to it a day because

2:31 it's just like a it's like a drive that you that you must fulfill.

2:36 And so when we got this into a screenplay and started reading it,

2:39 it was like, yo, we got to make this one no matter what we were doing.

2:43 Um and my wife joined me.

2:44 She's a producer on the film.

2:46 So no matter what we were doing, it was like this is what we're doing.

2:49 Like this is like became prioritized.

2:52 Um and it was a crazy journey, very difficult,

2:55 a lot of hurdles, but we just persevered through it.

2:59 Yeah.

2:59 And when I think about you, I always of course think about the music aspect,

3:02 but more so I think about how through

3:05 your art you're able to build worlds, right?

3:07 Whether it's sonically or visually.

3:09 And I'm curious how that changes for you

3:13 or how that shifts when you're writing and producing

3:16 like with music versus a movie and something

3:18 that we consume with our eyes before our ears.

3:20 Yeah, I think with a movie um the story is first of course, right?

3:25 And then I got to have the imagery in my head

3:27 and then I got to try to find a way

3:29 to translate that to not just to myself or first

3:33 to my crew and to my team and to the actors.

3:36 And um there's a lot of references that I can use, you know,

3:39 like I could pull from like look,

3:41 you have like I'll tell my actor, "Watch this movie.

3:43 Watch this movie." So your mindset can at least

3:45 get a taste what we're trying to do.

3:48 But for me, uh it I'm a pretty visual guy like, you know, I mean,

3:54 I'm the guy that walk to school and make

3:56 a story up in his head and see it, you know?

3:58 That's why, you know, even in Wuang lyrics, you could see and hear.

4:02 You hear it, but you could kind of get the imagery.

4:05 So now I'm able to reverse it.

4:06 I'm able to give you imagery, uh, colors,

4:10 sound that gives you more than the surface of it.

4:14 As you watch when you watch this film,

4:16 of course, you're going to be entertained,

4:17 but there's also a subconscious thing that's happening in the film as well

4:21 that I think will make you think about it the next day.

4:25 Yeah.

4:25 And that's interesting.

4:26 I want to stay on that.

4:27 when it comes to like the actual making of the film and the music,

4:30 we think about like a lot of things that you've

4:32 had your hand in, especially movies with scores like Kill Bill,

4:35 legendary for so many reasons, but that score.

4:39 So, with you in the director's chair with you

4:42 writing when it came to this film, what came first?

4:45 Were you hearing tracks as you were writing or did it kind

4:48 of get layered in after the full story was baked and formed?

4:52 Uh, well, there was only two tracks

4:53 in this movie that was like there in the beginning.

4:56 One is a song that um that actually I'm

4:59 a artist song called I for I where it says maybe

5:02 your god is like my god and we should maybe pray

5:05 together and get together you know like that very positive song.

5:08 So I always have that as the opening and then there was a Marvin Gay song

5:12 that happens in the film that I always like wish that it would be in the film.

5:16 I wasn't sure I was going to get it.

5:18 I didn't know if the Marvin Gay estate was

5:20 going to you know sign off but they did.

5:22 But every other song was like building as we go.

5:25 You know, we have Ice Cube, Today is a Nice Day in here.

5:28 We have uh Biggie Smalls got a track in this movie.

5:32 Uh Wuang and Eley Brothers and Blondie, just to name a few.

5:37 Yeah.

5:37 And just thinking about your creative process as well,

5:40 like we all know you're a huge fan of comic books and just

5:43 what that's played in every journey that you've been on from Wuang to now.

5:47 Is there a specific story or moment in a comic book that sticks

5:51 with you from growing up and reading

5:52 that influenced how you write and produce now?

5:56 Well, I mean, there's so many,

5:58 but my favorite comic book hero was a Silver Surfer.

6:04 Oh.

6:03 Uh, you know, a guy who in order to save his world,

6:06 he had to go find another world to sacrifice.

6:08 And then when he found Earth,

6:11 he he he saw that this planet was full of love and full of compassion.

6:15 and he couldn't allow Galactis to destroy it.

6:19 Uh I don't know, something about that guy resonated with me

6:21 and um and so I was just surfing through the world,

6:25 you know, using cosmic energy uh making art.

6:29 Yeah.

6:30 And speaking of the cosmic energy and just

6:32 making art and how things just have such longevity,

6:35 congratulations on Wuang being inducted later this year

6:38 into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

6:40 Yes.

6:40 And about that and just your journey and like the journey that you're on now

6:43 with films and producing when you were first

6:46 starting with Wuang and just all those years back,

6:48 did you see this longevity and like all

6:51 these accolades and Hall of Fames or were

6:53 you just creating more in the moment and letting the sonic energy pour into you?

6:58 Well, I think far as the Wuang and that movement,

7:01 I felt we was destined for greatness.

7:04 I felt that that it was like our destiny and and and that was kind of my pitch.

7:09 to to the rest of my brothers like give me five years

7:12 of your life and I promise I could get us to number one but I

7:15 just needed to be a dictatorship and so which is you know dictatorships

7:20 are tough right but they gave me those five years and and I

7:23 was able to fulfill my commitment um but far as being a film

7:27 director and making movies at this level no I couldn't say that I

7:33 saw it coming to reality it was more of something that I dreamed

7:36 but hip-hop and music is what I lived You know what I mean?

7:40 It's like it's like a boxer who trains in the gym every day.

7:43 He can't wait to get into the ring.

7:45 You know what I mean?

7:45 And so that's how hip-hop was.

7:47 But cinema uh was like a dream and a fantasy.

7:51 And because of music,

7:53 I was able to move into this world and fulfill these these childhood dreams

7:57 and these even some of these dreams were made when I was an adult.

8:01 Yeah.

8:02 And just like I'll add to your name, like you know the zigzag and like life can

8:06 take us through different like zigzags and roads and like

8:08 you said it started like hip-hop is like

8:10 the core and the base and now you're in film.

8:13 I'm very curious for you because again we have these dreams but it takes a lot

8:17 for us to sometimes act on those dreams and put them into fruition and movement.

8:21 Was there anyone in your life or a specific

8:24 moment that solidified for you that you're like, "Yeah, no,

8:26 it's time for this next zigzag on my journey

8:28 and to go into the film industry and take it seriously."

8:32 I feel like for me, um, Sheila, it's like when I feel an instinct, I follow it.

8:39 You know, when I first uh met Quinn Tarantino and we

8:43 start we became friends and we would talk a lot about movies,

8:47 I realized that his brain was actually when it

8:50 came to cinema a place my brain can go.

8:54 And so I took the patience to listen and learn, you know,

8:57 just like even in kung fu when I met the Shaolin master Cushy Ming,

9:02 I was like, "Wow, a real Shaolin master.

9:04 Let me study under him so so so that I can improve

9:07 myself." So I believe that even if you're a master of one thing,

9:11 you should always be a student at the same time.

9:14 So being a student, as I mastered hip-hop and music

9:18 and had platinum records and probably was considered as, you know,

9:21 a celebrity or whatever, I'm still able to put myself back at the feet

9:26 of someone else and study again and go through the process.

9:29 And I think that's that's that's that's what allowed me to fulfill dreams.

9:33 Willing to start back at go like you ever play Monopoly like you

9:38 know you got to start at go and then go around the board again.

9:41 I'm I'm willing to do that.

9:42 Uh as long as I'm healthy uh of course I got the support of my family as well.

9:48 Yeah.

9:48 Look that was a word that just made me stop.

9:50 I'm like oh I got to write that on my my whiteboard

9:52 in my room after this because you're right.

9:53 It's all about the journey and just feeling moved and moving on it.

9:56 I think that's really interesting because you can tell that's a pillar

9:59 that's led to your success and continued success for you as well.

10:02 And when I just think about the industry in hip-hop

10:05 that you started in versus the landscape of it now,

10:08 I'm really curious on your thoughts of what excites you about

10:10 hip-hop today and what do you feel like is missing from it?

10:14 Good question.

10:15 What excites me is that it continues to feed families.

10:18 It continues to uh help communities, you know, economically.

10:22 Uh what's missing from it I think is some

10:24 of the substance that that was um in my generation.

10:28 But I think that substance because my generation we lived

10:31 hip-hop whereas the next generation they have to they learned it.

10:34 They you know when we did it it wasn't on TV.

10:37 It wasn't 100 places to look at and and and be

10:41 and it was a harder point of entry.

10:43 But now that it is, you know, data on it, right?

10:48 You can look at an artist, study him, and there's formulas.

10:52 Uh, I think that it continues to feed everyone.

10:55 So, that's the beauty of it.

10:57 But I'm looking forward to more substance, and I think, you know, it'll come.

11:02 Yeah.

11:02 Look, we we all are.

11:03 The streets need it.

11:04 Streets need it.

11:06 Exactly.

11:06 So, before I let you go, I do have one more question.

11:08 When you think about your journey and evolution and where you are now,

11:12 what did legacy look like to you 20 years

11:14 ago and what does legacy look like to you now?

11:18 Well, I think legacy 20 years ago was kind of completing that mission

11:24 with with my promise to Wuang and becoming number one um and being able to have,

11:29 you know, gold and platinum albums hanging on our walls.

11:32 I think um legacy now uh I can actually take a moment and breathe it in.

11:39 You know, the rock and roll hall of fame announcement is something like,

11:42 okay, wow, that's like Beatles, that's the Beatles,

11:45 that's Rolling Stone, that's Michael Jackson, that's Prince, that's you know,

11:48 that's Shade, that's that's that's I'm amongst my own heroes.

11:52 So, that's a beautiful thing.

11:54 But then because I'm a guy that continues to strive

11:58 and strive to thrive and not just economically just I'm

12:02 I strive to to share art so that it could

12:05 inspire future generations because of that passion to do so.

12:11 I still I see I see legacy still coming.

12:13 I see film being a a frontier that I

12:16 can now challenge and make sure that there's a flag pole uh for my brain

12:21 and for my spirit that stands in the caden of cinema.

12:26 Yeah.

12:26 Look, inspiring generations you are.

12:28 Everyone, one of Chocolate is now out in theaters.

12:31 Make sure you go see it this weekend.

12:32 Grab a friend, tell a friend to tell a friend, post about it, do all the things.

12:36 Rizza, thanks so much for stopping past Bides.

12:39 Thank you.

12:39 Peace.

12:40 Thank you.