Trump’s Humiliation in Iran Changes Everything (w/ Bill Kristol) | The Bulwark Podcast

0:00 They're so self-centered and smug and self-satisfied, such jackasses.

0:04 They don't see how this stuff looks.

0:05 I I hope it looks bad and I hope people take advantage of it.

0:08 Honestly, I Democrats should be create fake

0:10 road trips and have like little, you know,

0:12 mock-ups of Duffy and his family in some

0:14 car and having them go around everywhere, you know, not doing his job.

0:25 Hello and welcome to the Bullwork Podcast.

0:26 I'm your host Tim Miller.

0:27 It is Monday, so we're here with editor at large Bill Crystal.

0:31 And uh you know, last week was pretty heavy.

0:33 Uh it's pretty heavy.

0:34 A lot of serious topics, a lot of serious guests.

0:37 We appreciated all of them.

0:39 And so I I have saved a section at the end of the podcast for some laughs.

0:43 I feel like we need some laughter and deserve some laughter, Bill.

0:46 Um and so, you know, we'll we'll we'll kind of see where are you

0:50 a st Have you do you have a favorite stand-up comedian?

0:52 Is there a is there an old-timer that you're into?

0:56 Yeah.

0:56 And now that's a good question.

0:57 I'll think about it and get back to you at the end of the show, you know.

1:00 Okay.

1:01 I can tell some of my favorite my favorite Henny Youngman jokes.

1:03 That'll go over well.

1:04 That'll that'll that'll date me that'll date me back to 19,

1:07 you know, 46 or something.

1:09 That's exactly what I was hoping for in the answer.

1:11 So, you work on that.

1:12 Um, we we we need to start

1:14 though with serious matters um abroad and domestically.

1:18 Um, and I I I want to like really begin with our friend and colleague,

1:24 well not really colleague,

1:25 but your former colleague, my aspiring colleague Bob Kagan,

1:28 who is in the Atlantic yesterday with an article titled Checkmate in Iran.

1:33 Washington can't reverse or control the consequences of losing this war.

1:37 And it's really well argued um and uh uh just basically a full

1:43 accounting of how rough the situation is

1:46 strategically and geopolitically right now for Trump.

1:49 And um he goes into a lot of themes that he went into a month

1:52 ago when he was on this podcast because not a lot has changed since then.

1:56 Um but I I do think he kind of even broadens it out

1:58 further as far as like why this is such a geopolitical strategic defeat.

2:06 uh like even more so than whatever Vietnam etc because of like what

2:10 some of the implications are for us losing control of the straight of Hormuz.

2:15 So um I was wondering what your your thoughts were on his assessment.

2:18 Yeah.

2:18 No, I think it's very strong piece and um

2:20 he's been arguing this for a while as you say,

2:22 but I think he's being vindicated by events.

2:24 I mean Trump understandably does not want to escalate.

2:27 He doesn't want to get in an even bigger war.

2:28 And I think the conventionalism has been, well, it's not great for Trump,

2:31 but he kind of, and I've had this view somewhat,

2:34 and he can slide out of it without too

2:36 much damage to himself or I suppose to the US.

2:40 Iran's capabilities have been degraded.

2:43 We've paid a price.

2:43 The world economy has paid a price, but we could recover.

2:47 Um, I mean, Bob's I still think it'd be pretty serious defeat.

2:50 Bob is more struck by the severity of that defeat.

2:54 also struck by the fact that Iran uh and he's

2:57 been right about this for the last week or so.

2:58 We've been talking about it on the phone a lot.

3:00 Iran's not so eager to let Trump slither away, right?

3:03 And that's really striking.

3:04 And Iran feels they have the upper hand.

3:06 I kind of thought maybe they just a little worried about

3:08 being pummeled again and they just end it in a good situation.

3:12 Pocket their winnings in a pretty good situation for them,

3:15 but uh so far they haven't seemed to want to do that and Trump has,

3:19 you know, bellowed and threatened but not done much.

3:22 So we'll see what happens.

3:23 Meanwhile, the strain is closed and the economy,

3:25 the global economy pays more more of a price.

3:28 But I think what Bob's big contribution is is seeing

3:30 that what a defeat it is for us to allow

3:33 Iran to to have allowed Iran to establish the principle

3:36 that they can close the trade and that's established going forward.

3:40 Whatever fake kind of agreement there is, Iran says, "Well,

3:42 we'll open it." They're pretty much making clear that it's at their sufference.

3:46 40 years Trump likes to talk about

3:48 47 years this nation's been plaguing the world.

3:51 it has been plaguing the world and us and others

3:54 for a lot for 47 years and is a very bad regime.

3:57 The one thing they've never done in the last

3:59 40 years been intimidated from doing was closing the straight.

4:01 Really kind of striking, isn't it?

4:03 All these wars going on in the region,

4:04 you know, including with Iran and you know,

4:06 we hit Iran in 2020 and then again in June, Israel and the US hit Iran.

4:10 They didn't close the straight.

4:12 That principle, they didn't want to challenge the principle

4:14 that we upheld with many others of, you know,

4:18 freedom of passage in international waters.

4:20 And now they've established the principle that they can do this.

4:22 That's a huge defeat.

4:23 And then the damage that's been done to our alliances in Europe and elsewhere.

4:27 Confidence in us by the Asians who depend much more

4:30 on the strait for you know for oil and for energy.

4:34 Uh I'd say the Gulf states now signaling who were hawkish.

4:38 Near the beginning they thought Trump might go

4:39 in and take care of Iran which not

4:41 a nation not a regime they like get along with very well and are scared by.

4:46 Uh now they they seem to be telling Trump could you end this please?

4:50 This is just getting worse and worse and worse.

4:51 I mean, so they're going to make their own deals with Iran, uh,

4:54 and also their own deals with countries like China,

4:57 which seem like maybe more reliable allies than us.

4:59 So, I think Bob has seen the big picture

5:00 of the damage to to the US standing in the world.

5:03 I mean, I think that those are the two things that that struck me,

5:05 just like the Arab states maybe feeling like

5:08 they need to make deals with Iran now,

5:10 uh, which is just dramatic change from just a couple months ago,

5:13 um, just for economic purposes.

5:15 And uh and then just this general principle, it's you know,

5:20 it's kind of a piece of a lot of the from the Trump era.

5:23 Uh there were these like kind of general

5:25 principles that just were things that existed

5:28 since I was born that like you didn't really have to think about, right?

5:31 The president leaves when an election is over.

5:33 You know that president follows a Supreme Court ruling, right?

5:37 uh you know that uh we are going to you know

5:40 maybe have disagreements but like generally you know work in concert

5:44 with our allies and the democratic nations of Europe and right

5:47 like like there are just all these general principles that Trump

5:50 has upended and this one of like freedom of navigation

5:55 on the seas uh is something that just has been the norm

6:00 um in the postw World War II era um

6:03 and and the US through you know sometimes through milit military power,

6:07 but also just like projection of strength and um you know,

6:11 fear uh of from other countries of wanting to incur the wrath of the US.

6:17 Uh you know, we've had like the these freedom of the seas uh

6:21 for for commercial ships to travel globally and like that is now in question.

6:27 And if you listen to Trump in his interviews,

6:30 he doesn't seem to really prioritize or care about about returning to that.

6:37 And you hear him say a lot like, "Well, we've got a lot of ports, you know,

6:40 we got ports in Alaska and Texas,

6:41 and people are getting our oil from us now." I don't know.

6:45 Like, in some ways, you know,

6:47 he like BB was on 60 Minutes talking about how he talked to Trump

6:50 about how Trump wants to send in troops to go get the nuclear stuff.

6:54 Well, who knows if that's true or not.

6:56 That's what BB says.

6:57 And so you have that like kind of pushing for more

7:00 aggressive action where the other hand you have Trump like

7:03 not seeming to really care that much that the straight

7:06 of and again maybe it's bluster but like and if he

7:10 decides that it doesn't really matter because we have our own

7:12 ports and our own oil exports and you know if

7:15 Iran decides to put a toll on the straight like

7:19 that's a problem for Asia but not a problem for us.

7:21 Like that's what he decides.

7:23 Like that's a major shift in kind of how the world

7:26 has worked and and one that that that decreases our power.

7:31 Yeah.

7:31 I mean it's America first and taken to its reasonable

7:34 uh conclusion and not reasonable but logical conclusion I guess.

7:38 Uh yeah.

7:39 Which is who needs all this upholding the international order

7:41 and providing a public good of of uh you know

7:44 free transit of the seas and holding open straits

7:46 that are thousands of miles away from us and so forth.

7:50 Um let others do it.

7:52 We'll we've got our ports.

7:53 Maybe we'll take care of our immediate vicinity.

7:56 Uh and that's that's actually in their strategy document.

7:58 Western Hemisphere comes first.

8:00 I mean, the price we will pay for letting

8:02 the whole rest of the world outside the Western Hemisphere,

8:05 maybe somewhat in the Western Hemisphere,

8:07 too, but certainly outside the Western Hemisphere kind

8:09 of just topple into or descend into, you know,

8:13 man eats dog everyone or dog eats man, whatever.

8:16 Which is that?

8:16 Matt eats dog, I can't remember anymore.

8:18 um everyone for himself, you know, countries just making their own arrangements.

8:22 It could become it could be sort of stable for a while

8:25 because countries will watch out for themselves

8:26 and they'll act in their self-interest,

8:28 but that is just a recipe ultimately for that's

8:31 what kind of got us into two world wars.

8:33 It's not a recipe.

8:34 Eventually, it'll come back to bite us.

8:35 I mean, it did in 1914, it did in 1939.

8:39 Uh and and it's certainly going to do huge damage to all,

8:42 as you say, a lot of things we just taken for granted.

8:45 this global trade and commerce that everything

8:47 that we just sort of assume happens

8:50 that it gets interrupted by the pandemic and that was terrible but then it

8:52 got back on course again and you know we can quibble about argue about

8:55 we should try to be permitted to have these particular chips and all that that's

8:59 a national security question fine but in general the principle that we can all

9:02 these goods will flow and I mean that that that ends nations can't depend on us

9:08 they look to their own weapons u they make their own they suddenly decide

9:11 they have to arm themselves um you

9:14 just get regional conflicts all over the place.

9:16 Uh regional accommodations to all over the place to various dictators.

9:20 Um it's really it is no it is the end.

9:23 I it's what a lot of people have been writing about.

9:25 We've been talking about uh and that's

9:27 been sort of on clearly beginning to happen

9:30 for the last year and a half the end of the post World War II order.

9:35 But this is this this war in Iran really has I

9:37 don't you think been the exclamation point on that on the end

9:40 accelerant was used but yeah same thing.

9:42 Yeah.

9:44 Delete Me makes it easy, quick,

9:45 and safe to remove your personal data online at a time

9:47 when surveillance and data breaches are

9:49 common enough to make everyone vulnerable.

9:51 Delete Me does all the hard work

9:52 of wiping your personal information from data broker websites.

9:55 It's easy.

9:55 All you have to do is sign up and let let Delete Me

9:58 know exactly what information you want deleted

10:00 and their experts take it from there.

10:02 As a somebody that has an active online presence,

10:05 to say the least, I made a mistake this weekend.

10:08 I think um I started engaging with random Louisiana influencer

10:13 accounts and um you know cuz I'm just so pissed

10:17 about the VRA thing and so then I'm getting more

10:20 and more random people who are like local political influencers

10:25 in my feed and uh MAGA ones and so I

10:28 started replying to them and my my husband is like is

10:32 this creating a greater likelihood that we have a confrontation

10:37 uh at Lee's blacksmith shop and I was like maybe slightly.

10:40 So maybe I should stop doing that.

10:41 But point is I'm online a lot and uh so you know you want to have

10:46 the protections the basic protections that you

10:49 can have within the context of my behavior.

10:53 Um and delete me helps me do that.

10:55 Um they send regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found,

10:59 where they found it, and what they removed.

11:01 It gives me and the family a little peace of mind to know that it's

11:04 constantly monitoring and removing the personal information

11:06 that we don't want on the internet.

11:07 Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing

11:10 up for delete me now at a special discount for our listeners.

11:12 Get 20% off your delete me plan when you

11:14 go to joindeme.com/bullwork and use promo code bullwork at checkout.

11:18 The only way to get 20% off is

11:19 to go to joindeme.com/bullwork and enter code bullwork at checkout.

11:23 That's joined me.com/bullwork bull work.

11:25 to that point and the latest on talk is

11:27 the same as it's been but should mention that over

11:29 the weekend um the Iran foreign ministry responded to a US

11:34 proposal to end the war um and their response included

11:38 sovereignity over the state sovereignty people get mad at me

11:42 whatever over the straight of moose um and a bunch

11:46 of other stuff that Trump responded and said was not

11:49 reasonable um so like that's that's where we're at same

11:54 you're right one thing Trump Trump seems

11:55 to stress over and over is the nuclear material.

11:58 It's a little weird.

11:58 I mean, honestly, this stuff is not usable right now.

12:01 It seems to be buried away.

12:02 If they try to start getting at it,

12:04 we will see it and can act to stop them, I should think.

12:07 I'm not against getting the stuff out of there,

12:08 but the idea that we fought this whole war because of stuff that we pulverized,

12:12 obliterated in was that June of last last summer, it's just ridiculous.

12:18 But it is very revealing and that what he I

12:20 think he says just because that's very important to Israel honestly

12:22 and for BB really stopping the nuclear program and and not

12:26 even giving them any remnant of one is so important.

12:28 It's not a honestly it is not a threat.

12:30 It's not consistent with America first.

12:32 That nuclear dust as Trump calls it has poses zero threat

12:36 to the United States of America right now or for the foreseeable future.

12:40 But it poses a threat to Israel which is you know a real thing.

12:42 we should wor in the old days we worried about that because we worried about

12:45 threats to other nations around the world

12:47 and destabilizing influences and so forth sort of left

12:51 over in this case because of Trump's uh being close to to Netanyahu I suppose

12:56 but um but that's he keeps repeating

12:58 that he never explains why that's so important

13:01 but it is very striking how he after a week or so where opening

13:04 the trade of war moves was important to us that we closed it so we I

13:07 guess for the sake of opening it now that seems to just recede we have

13:10 this blockade there what's the point of it I mean to tighten the screws on Iran,

13:15 I guess, so they'll then be more reasonable on the nuclear thing.

13:17 It's an awfully Yeah.

13:19 To me, it it just feels like a tangible and Israel is part of it for sure,

13:22 but also just feels like a tangible thing Trump can wrap

13:25 his head around that's like this is something that we did, right?

13:28 Like you need like he wants, we'll get to a trophy, a statue.

13:31 Like he wants something to be able to say

13:33 and and right now like the argument is is weak.

13:37 It's like he can sense it, you know,

13:39 like he tries to say like they've been obliterated and it's it's like okay,

13:42 so they've lost their ships, but like the nuclear

13:45 the nuclear that's a thing for him to say like we got the nuclear.

13:48 I do think that there's a simplicity and talking point element to it.

13:51 Um uh what as this is kind of related to all this, but it struck me

13:55 Trump did an interview with uh Cheryl Atkinson who is a little kooky these days.

14:01 She's got her own YouTube channel.

14:02 Um nothing wrong with doing news on the YouTube.

14:05 I'm doing that.

14:05 Subscribe to the Buller YouTube if you haven't already.

14:08 Uh but uh she's got a pretty kooky channel.

14:11 Trump did that and uh he said this about the straight.

14:15 Uh NATO has proven to be a paper tiger.

14:18 We don't use the straight.

14:19 We don't need it.

14:20 We don't need the straight.

14:22 We were doing it to help Israel and Saudi Arabia.

14:25 We don't need it.

14:26 We don't use it.

14:28 I I like there's just so much revealing about that there, right?

14:30 Like that a we doing this to help Israel and Saudi Arabia.

14:33 He just comes out and says it again, contra American, America first.

14:38 But also just like the degree to which like NATO had nothing to do with this.

14:41 We didn't call NATO.

14:42 We didn't get NATO invol like this has

14:44 this is not a this was not a defense issue.

14:47 It has nothing to do with the NATO treaty.

14:49 But he is like looking for any excuse to kind of blame NATO and more, you know,

14:57 kind of formally separate from those countries because he doesn't like

15:02 them personally because he feels like they're mean to him, etc., etc.

15:05 Yeah, he wants to blow up the to the degree he has any view

15:08 beyond the personal that he wants to blow up the postw World War II water,

15:11 which he vaguely thinks has been bad for the US,

15:13 though it's been very good for the US and and NATO is a key part of that.

15:16 Yeah.

15:16 I mean the normal incidentally person who

15:18 knows a little bit about international trade.

15:19 You say what who benefits a lot from the trade people would say

15:22 Asia and Japan and South Korea two kind of important allies of ours.

15:26 Uh he has no thought about them.

15:28 The Bob made the point to be I don't think

15:30 he I don't remember if he's just this in the piece.

15:32 The Japanese the Japanese prime minister had she went pretty far

15:35 in trying to really accommodate Trump and get along with him.

15:39 She came here swallowed hard when Trump made his Pearl Harbor joke.

15:42 Remember that?

15:43 And she was in the Oval Office.

15:44 That was shortly after the war began.

15:46 I think and and she you know she got a lot of grief back at home apparently

15:50 for not speaking up a little more

15:51 on that but whatever she she felt it was important

15:54 Trump couldn't care less about that why do

15:56 we have the troops in Japan from Trump's point

15:57 of view incidentally I mean and and therefore Japan

16:01 starts thinking we got to take care of ourselves

16:03 Korea starts thinking that suddenly Asia which has

16:05 been very stable for a long time and that's

16:08 been pretty good for the world you know um

16:10 that that starts to fall apart I the key

16:12 thing I just about Bob's piece he uses the word defeat And I think he does

16:16 that on purpose to kind of really try

16:18 to bring home to people this is a real defeat.

16:21 It's not didn't quite work out as well as we hoped or didn't

16:24 quite get all the things we wanted or kind of a stumble.

16:28 It's an important defeat for the United States.

16:30 when Trump when she was uh there the prime minister was visiting I

16:33 remember he makes this joke about how you know the that we weren't warned

16:37 about Pearl Harbor when she was complaining

16:39 that like Japan wasn't consulted and and we

16:42 were saying at the time it was like hm Pearl how did Pearl

16:45 Harbor work out for the Japanese like not great in the end uh ended

16:49 up uh weakening them uh quite a bit uh and and really there are

16:54 a lot more parallels than maybe he realized um between our action in Iran

16:57 and Pearl Harbor summer is right around the corner And I love the heat.

17:03 So I that just means I get outside more and more.

17:06 We moved here to Louisiana.

17:07 We moved in the summer and immediately everybody was like,

17:10 "I'm so sorry for this weather." And I was like, "This is why I'm here.

17:13 I want to leave in the winter to go to other warm places.

17:17 Um it's that Lebanese skin." But, uh,

17:20 you know, when you're outside, when you're seeing concerts,

17:25 um, you're just going to a crawfish boil, you need good outdoor clothes.

17:30 You need something comfy and cute.

17:32 And thanks to Mac Weldon, I got the wardrobe,

17:34 staples I need to be ready for anything.

17:37 You can discover upgraded basics, fresh styles, and more at macweldon.com.

17:41 Plus, get 20% off your first order of under

17:43 125 bucks or more with code the bull work.

17:45 I got a few Mac Weldon pieces I really like.

17:47 You've probably seen um I got these little

17:50 short sleeve buttondowns that I'm doing now.

17:52 A lot of short sleeve buttondowns for the pod.

17:55 It's just the button down and the necklace.

17:57 Sometimes when I'm out there, you know,

17:58 among the people, put on a little tank top underneath,

18:02 have that short sleeve button down open, a little more of a casual look.

18:07 Macwell's got a bunch of different options

18:09 to choose from and I've been digging them.

18:11 I've also been looking at the Ace collection.

18:13 They've got some Ace sweatshirts that are cozy for sitting around the house.

18:17 That's good for podcasting, too.

18:18 You know, it's like business on top, party on the bottom.

18:22 So, the uh Ace Collection is something I think you should look into as well.

18:26 Add comfort and flare to your closet this year with the Ace line.

18:28 It's the go-to choice for guys who want to look great without even trying.

18:31 Get moving with Mac Weldon.

18:33 Comfortable anywhere.

18:33 Go to macweldon.com and get 20% off your first order

18:37 of 125 bucks or more with promo code the bullwork.

18:40 That's macweld.com.

18:44 Code the bullwork.

18:45 On the NATO point, you had uh

18:47 Phillips O'Brien on your conversation with Bill Crystal.

18:50 Uh there there is some pretty interesting

18:53 developments happening in the Russia Ukraine war.

18:55 Um Putin started sounding a little bit of a different

18:58 note and his hate to even call it a press conference,

19:02 whatever you want to call it.

19:03 Um you know, with this kind of kayfabe uh gatherings that he

19:08 has to make pronouncements um with with state media in front of him.

19:12 Uh but he started talking about how maybe the war could be ending soon.

19:16 Zalinski wants to come to Moscow.

19:19 Uh you know he he's doing kind of the Putin thing where he was

19:22 you know speaking in code a little bit and and trolling a little bit

19:26 but also definitely s like it was it was a it was different than

19:31 in the past kind of like his bravado of how Russia was on the march etc.

19:37 Um so he starts opening the door to maybe finding an off-ramp.

19:42 Uh and this is happening I don't think coincidentally

19:45 simultaneously with Ukraine like gaining a lot of military ground

19:49 for the first time in a while and that the the front

19:51 lines have been pretty stagnant um thanks to drone warfare.

19:54 So anyway um you had a long conversation with Phillips about this.

19:57 I'm wondering what your takeaways were.

19:59 Yeah, I mean Phil really is a military historian,

20:01 so he really knows the military stuff and uh he he

20:03 was very he's been very early on he thought Ukraine would

20:07 hold and he's always been more bullish on Ukraine that the convention

20:10 was and was right for the first two years, three years.

20:12 Um frustrated the US didn't do more and Europe could have done more.

20:16 But he he was basically right that Russia would not walk right over them.

20:21 Uh he was right that unlike Trump who believed they would and that Russia

20:25 holds all the cards and that then Trump holds all the cards.

20:28 Now, Phil and everyone else is very worried obviously a year ago

20:31 when we started we cut off our aid which was kind of important.

20:34 Uh but it turns out Ukraine's progress in the drone

20:38 and the drone side of things and the progress

20:41 of drones as a military weapon and the transformation

20:44 of the battlefield that they have caused is pretty astounding.

20:47 And he says really a kind of you know like he doesn't like

20:50 to use the term revolution in military

20:51 warfare but you know a real transformation.

20:53 Uh and so that's able to destabilize the battlefield and maybe

20:58 have a bit of an advantage now and also the Russian casualties.

21:01 Uh Kathy has a good piece on the website,

21:03 the Bullwork website about this kind of sad victory

21:06 day parade Putin ad where they cut it back.

21:09 First he went to Trump to get Trump to get

21:10 Zilinsky to promise not to attack it with drones.

21:13 Actually Zansky did, but he sort of trolled Putin by kind of embarrassing him.

21:18 Uh anyway, so I I think Putin is weaker

21:21 and uh Phil O'Brien thinks if the European and also

21:24 the other thing he other point he made

21:26 that I hadn't really thought as much about is we're

21:27 all happy Orban lost but one real practical effect

21:30 of Orban losing is that he'd been blocking the $90

21:33 billion of aid from the EU to Ukraine which

21:35 probably is enough for them for the next year.

21:37 So they can keep on not just keep

21:39 on fighting but take the fight to the Russians.

21:41 So that looks much more promising.

21:43 Ironically, I mean, in a weird way,

21:46 Trump Trump's forced the Europeans to step up, and they are doing so much more.

21:50 Um, and he's forced the Europeans,

21:52 forced the in a way, Trump's coming is not for that.

21:55 Mostly, it's Russia that's forced the Ukrainians to depend on themselves

21:58 and have this fantastic ability to to to to make the drones.

22:01 But still, uh, Trump's accelerated that probably.

22:04 So, yeah, that war looks like it's going better.

22:06 I think Putin's sort of, uh, you know, throwing something out here on the, well,

22:11 it could end if only Zilinsky comes to Moscow.

22:12 we'll negotiate something,

22:13 but of course Putin's terms are not going to be acceptable to the land.

22:16 Putin wants to keep probably 20% of Ukraine

22:19 that they have and that's not going to happen.

22:21 So I'm I'm dubious that there'll be an agreement.

22:23 There might be a bit of you could

22:24 imagine some ceasefires though and that kind of thing.

22:26 Maybe that would be good, I guess.

22:28 And um yeah, I mean what what Phil

22:31 is most worried about is Putin and Trump actually

22:34 getting together maybe with Chinese sort of back

22:37 to to really uh kind of agree to actually,

22:42 you know, make things tougher on Ukraine that Trump has been out of the war.

22:46 He hasn't really been an aggressive adversary of Zilinski at this point, right?

22:51 But it could get a little worse.

22:52 And the only other uh I mean the counter

22:55 to that is it has you know augured that's

23:00 been disastrous in Iran um this kind of shift

23:04 within the Trump administration but but maybe um you

23:08 know points to a little less worry on that front

23:12 that he's going to align so much with Russia

23:14 is that like the people with his ear right

23:16 now at least are the relatively more pro- Ukraine.

23:20 not as pro- Ukan as we would like,

23:21 but the relatively more hostile to Russia um elements of his administration,

23:27 be that Marco or the people outside

23:28 the administration he's talking to, Tissson and Levin, etc.

23:31 Like, uh, you know, the war in Iran has been kind of more

23:34 what that crowd wants and less what the JD Vances of the world want.

23:38 Um, so, uh, you know,

23:40 we we'll see how that plays out, but it's an interesting development.

23:42 The other and and the other potential is which kind of ties to what you're

23:48 saying at the top is Trump just deciding

23:49 to wash his hands of this alto together.

23:51 You know, it is the inevitable um destination of America first.

23:55 Like let's I don't care about this at all.

23:57 The Europeans can hash this out.

23:59 The middle the Arab nations states can hash this out and I'm going

24:03 to pivot back to the Western Hemisphere and we're and focus on toppling Cuba.

24:08 And we have a couple pieces of evidence of that.

24:11 uh uh many more uh surveillance flights over Cuba uh than than previously.

24:17 There was reporting on that over the weekend and that is in line

24:20 with kind of what they were seeing before we went into Venezuela and Iran.

24:24 Um Trump expressed in that same YouTube interview a frustration that the Cuban

24:30 regime hasn't already been toppled by the economic

24:32 pressure we've been putting on Cuba.

24:34 And he's, you know, basically saying once we deal with this one,

24:37 we're on to the next.

24:39 something to that effect about about pushing towards Cuba.

24:41 So I mean that seems inevitable at this point I guess.

24:45 So I mean AB Solder our former colleague said the in a conversation about

24:49 3 weeks ago or so I said this could lead you know Iran could lead

24:52 him to sort of say maybe I

24:53 should avoid all this foreign these foreign adventures

24:55 and you know get back to demagoguing

24:57 on domestic issues and better luck with that.

25:00 Uh but she said, "No,

25:01 the psychology is he's he can't he needs a big win and Cuba

25:05 is the easiest one and he's got some support for it here because

25:08 Cuba is a terrible regime and we've been so at odds with it

25:11 for so many decades." Um so I yeah I really wonder whether he's thinking,

25:16 you know, August, September before the midterms,

25:18 maybe not even that far off, you know, June, July,

25:21 uh time for the I guess the invasion of Cuba

25:24 or just the pressure kind of a Venezuela type situation.

25:27 I I don't know.

25:28 But um I don't know.

25:30 I mean, when you have your foreign,

25:31 apart from the bad ideological elements of of the Trump administration,

25:36 it's driven so much now by his megalomania and vanity and all that.

25:41 It's not It really is dangerous.

25:42 I mean, that is it.

25:43 It can a lot of it can peter out into silly things.

25:46 you know, I I hate all the triumphal arch and the statute, all that stuff.

25:50 But in a way, you part of you've made this point before, you know,

25:53 maybe it's better if he just distracts himself with all that, you know,

25:55 and doesn't go around causing huge foreign policy crises

25:58 which do real damage to us and the world.

26:01 But unfortunately, it's of a peace, you know,

26:02 and I suspect the I suspect we're going to see something with Cuba.

26:06 It's spring cleaning time, which is a great time to address some

26:08 of those household tasks you've been putting off.

26:10 If you've noticed that you're not sleeping

26:11 well and it's time for a new mattress, our friends at Helix are here to help.

26:15 We got a ton of guests in and out around here.

26:17 I got another one coming this weekend.

26:19 And there's one thing about having them that's been a little annoying,

26:21 which is uh that our Helix mattress is in the guest room.

26:25 So, when we have guesting, I can't go do my little afternoon Mimi nap in there.

26:31 Um, and uh sometimes I'm getting better sleep

26:35 on that Helix mattress in the guest room, but that's okay.

26:39 I got a good mattress in my room as well.

26:41 But we're getting rave reviews for everybody

26:42 who's coming through for Jazzfest and elsewhere.

26:46 And I trust them, so you should, too.

26:48 He delivers your mattress right to your door.

26:50 I had to unpackage it by myself.

26:52 I'm incompetent.

26:53 I can't do anything.

26:54 Can I just say my husband, I forget where my husband was.

26:56 He was gone.

26:57 We had a guest coming.

26:58 I had to unbox it and put it on the bed myself.

27:03 And I did it.

27:04 And if I can do it, I promise it's easy.

27:06 And you can do it, too.

27:07 You can do 120 night sleep trial to make

27:09 sure you have the right mattress for you.

27:10 Returns and exchanges are easy.

27:12 And the happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk-free customer first experience.

27:17 Right now, Helix is having their Memorial Day sale.

27:19 Go to helixleep.com/bullwork for 27% off sitewide exclusive to our listeners.

27:25 That's helixleep.com/bullwork for 27% off.

27:29 Helixleep.com/bullwork.

27:31 I want to move forward uh to the domestic stuff.

27:34 Um, obviously there's a bunch of uh panic and rage

27:38 and anger in Democratic circles over the redistricting uh ruling.

27:43 We're discussing this was kind of happening

27:45 as we were taping on Friday with Adam Sur.

27:48 The Virginia ruling comes down uh that negates the will of you and your fellow

27:54 Virginiaians uh who voted um in a ballot initiative to to re redraw the maps.

28:01 Um the courts overturned that.

28:03 Um, so like we have a couple of things like happening simultaneously.

28:07 I mean there is I just think complete righteous anger

28:11 about what is happening in the south and how the Republicans

28:14 are going to try to redraw out all the districts

28:16 that are represented represented by blacks um in the old confederacy.

28:22 Uh, and then you also have, I think,

28:25 a real I don't know if panic is the right word,

28:29 but but concern among Democrats about, okay,

28:33 how is there any way to mitigate this right now?

28:35 Because I think that the House of Representatives

28:39 still looks quite likely to flip to the Democrats,

28:42 but it's a much closer call now um with the way that uh

28:47 the Republicans have successfully rigged the map in some of these states.

28:51 Um, so a bunch there.

28:53 Uh, I was wondering what your initial reactions are.

28:54 We'll go through a couple of the elements.

28:56 I mean, Virginia, I'd say they threw out

28:58 a referendum had a pretty shaky technical alleged

29:02 problem with the way the state legislature did

29:04 it and uh I'm a little 43 decision.

29:07 I think the descent stronger than the majority opinion.

29:10 Uh, but it's not no way to really overturn it.

29:13 I wouldn't say I think the that would have moved

29:16 from a 6 to5 Democratic aortionment to 10 to1 probably.

29:21 I still think I think in any kind of decent Democratic year

29:24 that 6 to5 goes the current 6 to5 goes 74 or maybe 83.

29:29 A couple of those districts are pretty close.

29:30 I think 83 you do.

29:32 Yeah.

29:32 So I think um so that you know so so it's a two seat loss.

29:36 Uh so that's that's one thing.

29:37 Uh that's a democratic redistricing thrown up by the court.

29:40 Uh so we have a weird way of appointing judges here in Virginia.

29:42 the Supreme Court judges.

29:43 So I don't think to be fair that's it's not clear that's racially driven.

29:47 I mean it's it's more partisan.

29:49 The racial stuff in the South.

29:50 It's truly insane though.

29:51 Just really quick like to it's very pretty

29:54 rare that a court overturns an election result, right?

29:58 Like there aren't a ton of examples of that and to do so on 43 grounds

30:03 and a highly litigated one.

30:04 Yeah.

30:04 I know it's a little unusual and you know forces Yeah.

30:09 and turns around what people were planning on in terms of uh

30:12 the districts they were going to run on the primaries in August.

30:15 The south the southern stuff is pretty grotesque.

30:17 I mean I I really feel I just can't quite you know to see it happening in 2026

30:22 but let's just have no blacks in our congressional

30:24 delegation in these states that have 20 25% black 30.

30:30 I mean I don't know.

30:32 I mean and also it's so undisguised.

30:35 I mean now the partisansship and the racism

30:36 have a high correlation as Jia Morris pointed out.

30:39 So you could but of course one reason the court was able to get

30:42 to the decision was sort of a fake

30:43 statistical thing about well it's not really about race.

30:46 It's about partisansship.

30:46 You know what if one party is gets 92% of the white

30:50 vote and the other party gets 90% of the black vote.

30:54 What are you proving when you say it's about party not about race?

30:56 I mean it's ludicr it's it's it's the same things.

30:59 So uh and this is about race literally.

31:02 I mean the decision the Supreme Court's decision

31:04 the US Supreme Court was about race you know uh

31:06 and gutted section two of the voting rights act which

31:09 has been passed and repassed by Congress by huge majorities.

31:12 Again it's a good sort of like you're saying about the referendum.

31:15 This isn't just tweaking with something

31:17 or an administrative interpretation of the Clean Air Act.

31:19 This was a major legislation that was passed by Congress

31:23 passed three times authorized under under was reauthorized

31:27 under Reagan and then reauthorized again under W.

31:29 Bush, right?

31:30 uh by big bipartisan majorities and they've

31:32 been chipping away more than chipping away

31:34 at it but undercutting it for quite a while and this was maybe the final blow.

31:38 So I mean I'm Sarah and I discussed this some yesterday.

31:41 I mean I I guess Sarah's very uh we got

31:44 to persuade more people and and stuff which is correct.

31:46 I think I think also some of the anger

31:48 can be beneficial in the sense of mobilizing Democratic turnout

31:53 including minority turnout in some of these states which

31:55 could help with the state with the Senate elections actually.

31:57 They can't redistrict the Senate, you know.

31:59 So, can't jerry mand the Senate any way

32:01 that it is already in terms of, you know, rural representation.

32:05 Um, I don't know.

32:06 I I I remain pretty optimistic.

32:08 I I actually don't I mean I I think it's going

32:10 to be a very big blue wave and I think it's probably going

32:13 to swamp these the House will be plus 30 instead of plus 25

32:17 instead of plus 30 honestly and and I think the Senate's in play.

32:20 But maybe I'm kidding myself and I don't blame

32:22 the the pros the operatives for looking at it and thinking yikes.

32:26 What final point though I'd say people are a little too fatalistic about

32:28 these districts and about the ability

32:30 of the Republican legislators to draw them so brilliantly.

32:33 And so the Tennessee districts, they've shot Memphis up into into three pieces.

32:36 So there's no black no majority minority district.

32:39 In in 2018 when Prederson run ran for Senate, I guess, right?

32:43 And lost.

32:44 Um he was a strong Democratic candidate.

32:47 So that that caveat is stipulated.

32:49 He got in the new districts, if you go back and calculate what his vote was,

32:53 48 or 49% of the vote, I think,

32:55 in those three Memphis partial now Memphis districts.

32:59 If 2026 is a good year,

33:01 Democrats could win one or two of those seats, you know, or maybe three.

33:04 I mean, I So, I think that's true in some of these other states, too.

33:07 I think that they're not so sure that Democrats can't but you know,

33:11 can't can't do do okay, but it is certainly a it's a hurdle.

33:16 And there are two things to look at there.

33:17 And just on the on that point about whether the Democrats can win,

33:21 uh they can win some of these districts and I think that there could, you know,

33:25 can see but but it's not as if they will win so many that it

33:30 backfires on Republicans and they can mitigate

33:32 the Republican gains by winning some of the districts.

33:35 Um that is that is definitely true.

33:38 Tennessee is going to be very hard though.

33:39 I mean they uh you know the states moved more to the right since 2018

33:43 and Bredesen was a good candidate and like it is just a total out like

33:48 outrage like you mentioned like they cut out

33:50 Memphis into a third a third a third

33:51 that's they also cut up the black vote a third a third a third right

33:54 so I I mean they they literally I mean it was

33:57 a purely racial gerrymander in Tennessee to to ensure that black voters

34:02 in Memphis do not have the representation that they choose notably

34:06 in this one case and all the other districts it's a black representative.

34:10 In this case, it's a white representative, Steve Cohen,

34:12 though he was in a primary with Justin Pearson.

34:13 But like whatever, you know,

34:16 that however that like that, you know, ends up playing out, right?

34:21 They divide the city into thirds like which is illegal

34:25 and an affront and racist and all all those things, right?

34:28 So, look, I I do I don't want to be

34:30 I don't want to totally demoralize the people of Tennessee,

34:33 like because they simultaneously are living

34:35 in a basically undemocratic, you know, a state that has like basically done

34:41 everything possible to minimize their democratic rights.

34:45 And yet maybe they could.

34:47 And they we also have the benefits

34:48 of having a couple of horrific candidates like

34:50 Andy Ogles and Scott Dejer are like particularly

34:52 offensive even within the construct of MAGA, right?

34:56 where everybody is offensive, like they stand out as uniquely offensive.

34:59 So, it's possible to go win some of those seats,

35:02 but it's pretty it's it's tough.

35:04 And Lauren Egan's article,

35:05 which was well reported at the William the Bullwork yesterday,

35:07 it was pretty depressing to me, you know,

35:09 because it was just like, what is the Democrat's plan?

35:11 And it's, oh, we got to run candidates more suited to winning these districts.

35:15 And I agree with that.

35:17 We do, but it's but it's too late to recruit candidates now.

35:20 It's in May and and there are

35:22 a lot of things preventing Democrats from doing that.

35:25 And you can't overcome this level of cheating solely with persuasion.

35:31 And persuasion is part of it, but but the cheating is pretty effective.

35:35 Um, at least in the South for for the Republicans.

35:37 Um, the Virginia thing, I just want to throw this at you.

35:41 Uh there's a there's a uh proposal going around

35:43 in some quarters about changing this rule to lower the age

35:48 of the the like lower the mandatory retirement age of Virginia judges

35:53 to 54 which would essentially fire all the judges on the court.

35:58 Um and Su Has uh uh Subramanium who we had

36:03 on the podcast who's a big uh supporter of the amendment

36:06 said this uh we have Republican states ignoring their constitutions

36:09 and interrupting early voting and ignoring their Supreme Courts altogether.

36:12 We know based on that Republicans will explore

36:14 every single option possible to move this forward.

36:17 Um so we should do the same.

36:19 Like he's pushing for that.

36:21 I think that that is interesting as a political matter that a quite moderate

36:26 member of the Virginia uh congressional delegation

36:29 is is like pushing maximum warfare here.

36:32 Um and I think that's notable and encouraging like this specific

36:35 tactic I feels like a bit of a stretch to me even.

36:40 Um but I don't know.

36:42 I'm I'm curious.

36:43 I'm intrigued.

36:44 What's your reaction?

36:45 Yeah, I think it's a stretch and I mean what he's

36:48 responding to is what is happening in the other states, right?

36:50 He doesn't act I mean getting Supreme Court has been pretty

36:54 bipartisanish uh that this was a pretty partisan decision I think

36:57 and uh people didn't if you if people ahead of time

37:01 had said this is a disaster it shouldn't go to the court

37:03 at all whatever but you know they have they argued the case

37:06 I think they thought they were going to win it uh

37:08 the state so no I don't think that's going to happen

37:11 probably shouldn't happen I'm certainly for all kinds of hard ball uh

37:15 I was for the Virginia redistricting on that ground but that was

37:17 a legal constitutional matter and precisely They had to have

37:20 the referendum because the Virginia constitution required it and they also

37:24 required that two state legislative sessions pass it and that's why they

37:27 did the October or November whatever it was session and then

37:29 the next one and that's what the little technicality is about was

37:32 that really voters went to the polls in October not knowing

37:36 that members had voted or would vote in favor of this thing.

37:40 It's honestly kind of a ridiculous technicality I would say

37:43 but anyway um technicality may giving it a little too much dignity.

37:47 So no, I'm not really with I'm not with that particular move,

37:50 but I'm certainly in favor of I agree with you.

37:52 You can't wink wish away the tree.

37:54 Look, this is we have all been saying for year and a half

37:57 as some of us have been saying that they're going to do whatever they can.

38:00 They're going to do whatever they can for 26.

38:02 They do whatever they can for 28

38:03 and whatever they can involves voter suppression.

38:05 It involves God knows what kinds of shenanigans in terms of the actual

38:09 voting in September and October and then in the counting the ballots.

38:12 It also involves this kind of thing.

38:13 So, uh I'm not we shouldn't be surprised by it.

38:16 we should be ready for it, I suppose, as much as we can be.

38:19 Um, yeah.

38:21 So, I think we just have to but but I

38:23 think this I think going for the intra Virginia,

38:25 destroying the Virginia Supreme Court for the sake of, you know,

38:29 is a little bit of a weird a weird way to fix this problem, I'd say.

38:33 I mean, it's Yeah.

38:34 Yeah.

38:34 I kind of with you.

38:35 I love I love the energy though, you know.

38:37 So, keep the energy there.

38:39 Uh people should be looking to to sue hospital.

38:41 People really need to look at these states and districts.

38:43 I I think Lawrence P was excellent.

38:45 Tennessee may be the worst case, but I don't know in some of these other

38:47 states where there could be competitive Senate races,

38:50 for example, really increased minority turnout could make

38:53 a difference in a Mississippi or something like that.

38:55 And so it be ironic.

38:56 I thought about this.

38:57 Everyone conventualism I was like conventional wisdom could be,

39:01 you know, is wrong, could be wrong or reversed.

39:04 Everyone the absolute conventional wisdom.

39:05 House easy pretty easy for the Dems.

39:07 Senate pretty impossible.

39:08 That was 6 months ago.

39:09 Then it became House very easy.

39:11 Senate possible.

39:13 I would be funny if the Senate ends up being sort of, you know,

39:17 le because of this redistricting, the House becomes more of a headache

39:20 and the Senate starts to go fall into place.

39:21 I don't think I think that's overstating it obviously, but but um

39:26 Jard wrote in Politico about worries about backlash and I don't know.

39:29 I think maybe I'm too beaten down by the last

39:31 10 years to to be hopeful about that.

39:34 But the point that he was making is that Republicans

39:36 did make a lot of ground with black voters.

39:38 Not not really with black women, but black men.

39:41 like Trump was the high water mark in in a couple

39:44 decades for Republicans and you know like and just

39:49 the overt effort to like overturn the progress made

39:54 of the civil rights era and to take away voting

39:58 power from from black folks I I think could help

40:01 on margins and on engagement turnout um and and that that could

40:06 make a difference some of these states again will

40:10 that make up for the rigging and the cheating.

40:13 I I I don't know, but like it it could matter um

40:16 in some of these districts and I hope it's true and people should be

40:20 outraged and motivated rather than despaired because I I do think that while

40:23 the House seems a tougher today than it did when we taped on Friday,

40:27 the Democrats are still still favored to take it.

40:30 No, I just ICE and Border

40:32 Patrol have infuriated Latino voters quite justifiably.

40:36 It should have infuriated all of us.

40:38 And now the court ruling should

40:40 infuriate will infuriate and the subsequent state

40:42 legislative action which is so aggressive

40:45 and beyond the pale should infuriate black voters.

40:48 So you know Trump doesn't win without better

40:50 turnout better numbers and they're not huge among blacks.

40:54 They're pretty big among Latinos.

40:56 Uh it doesn't win in 2024.

40:57 They don't win the House Republicans without that spillover from Trump.

41:00 So it it does matter if there's a real reaction leaving aside like

41:04 maybe some decent white people might be offended by this too, you know.

41:07 Yes, God willing.

41:10 Uh I'm a little dispirited about the hope for decent

41:12 people of um coming to the defense of others.

41:16 Uh you know, but maybe it will happen and they should be righteously pissed

41:23 and and hoping to make a difference this November and and maybe that will,

41:27 you know, also come in concert with all some

41:28 MAGA voters feeling not that motivated uh to turn out.

41:32 Um, so I I do think that's the that's the caveat here,

41:36 but boy, it's it's enraging.

41:38 Um, and and a pretty negative development.

41:42 Um, here are some other things.

41:44 Let's get to the fun.

41:45 Here's some other things that could cut against the Republicans.

41:48 Uh, just their total lack on focus about the concerns

41:51 of the American people of all races and genders and ages.

41:55 Um, the Secretary of Transportation, um, Sean Duffy,

41:59 not like that important of a role.

42:01 Secretary of Transportation usually not at the center of our public debate,

42:04 but in a moment where everybody is pissed off about gas prices,

42:08 pissed off about the rising price of air travel, well,

42:12 you you'd think that he would be

42:15 laser focused on trying to alleviate those concerns.

42:18 Instead, he was on Fox and Friends on Friday announcing this.

42:22 So, I want to lean into America's 250th birthday.

42:25 Rachel and I actually met on a road trip on a reality TV show.

42:28 And so over the course of seven months,

42:31 we just kind of found these moments where I might be able to do some work.

42:34 I could take the kids with me, do a road trip.

42:36 Oh yeah.

42:36 And our motto is to love America is to see America.

42:39 And there's so much to see in this beautiful country.

42:43 A sevenmon road trip for the Secretary of Transportation.

42:46 We're paying his salary.

42:48 He's going to do some work.

42:50 He's going to do some work.

42:51 Well, he's on a seven-month road trip.

42:53 Well, everybody is enraged about uh skyrocketing gas prices.

42:58 I that to say to call that tonedeaf feels like an understatement.

43:03 I I couldn't agree more.

43:04 They're also they're all so, you know,

43:08 they're so self-centered and smug and self-satisfied, such jackasses.

43:12 They don't see how this stuff looks.

43:14 I I hope it looks bad and I hope people take advantage of it.

43:16 Honestly, I Democrats should be create fake road trips and have like little

43:20 I don't know what they I'm not good at this kind of thing,

43:22 but you are some of our friends who would

43:23 be good at figuring out putting little, you know,

43:26 mock-ups of Duffy and his family in some

43:28 car and having them go around everywhere, you know, not doing his job.

43:32 And isn't it paid for?

43:33 Was it paid for by various corporations who put the money into some 501c?

43:37 It's paid for by a nonprofit run by a transportation industry

43:41 lobbyist and funded by various transportation

43:44 companies that are seeking Duffy's favor.

43:47 Uh things like Bright Line, the private railway,

43:50 it's and I think Toyota is in there.

43:52 It's like

43:53 what I I mean they're like comp the swamp is buying off Shawn Duffy so he

43:58 can take his family to go see Mount Rushmore and the Arch and the Grand Canyon.

44:04 It's like to see America, to love America, to see America.

44:06 I want to go, you know?

44:07 I mean, really, you're just anti- your typical anti-American lefty bully.

44:11 People aren't going to be able to go

44:12 on road trips this summer because they can't afford it.

44:15 Sean Duffy, like what are you doing?

44:18 People should think of clever cleverer people than I

44:21 should think of ways to bring this up as airplane

44:23 ticket as plane ticket prices soar because of the price

44:26 of jet fuel and his gas prices sore.

44:29 Um, yeah, I absolutely got to really make Shawn Duffy more famous.

44:34 They're really bad.

44:35 You know, the Trump,

44:35 maybe you haven't noticed this, the Trump cabinet, it's really bad.

44:39 And they're not just incompetently bad.

44:40 They're just all smug if I could say so here.

44:43 Yeah, it's true.

44:44 You know, Sam and I a couple weeks ago had

44:46 did our cabinet ranking worst cabinet officials and it's tough.

44:48 I mean, it's competitive.

44:49 It's a It's really tough choosing, you know,

44:51 having to narrow it down to the worst four.

44:53 Is one of them, two of them respectable, do you think?

44:58 I we always keep coming back to Doug Bergam as the respectable one.

45:02 Doug, but that said, there's some there are some stories about some

45:06 pretty strange ways which he was treating his staff.

45:08 So, I don't know.

45:10 Um, it's a rough it's it's a it's it's really

45:14 one of the worst collections of individuals you could possibly imagine.

45:17 Speaking of which, why don't we why don't we get into the comedy?

45:19 One of the other ones, um, this is Macob dark comedy, I guess.

45:24 Um, was our Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F.

45:27 Kennedy Jr., um, we have the HA virus going around.

45:32 Um, you know, pretty serious.

45:34 This uh the people on the on the ships, for some reason,

45:37 we're bringing one person that was exposed to Santa virus

45:41 on one of these cruise ships back to America to quarantine.

45:43 I'm kind of like, can't we can't we quarantine that person somewhere else?

45:48 Do they have to be quarantined here?

45:50 Um, and uh and there's some concerns that Robert F.

45:54 Kennedy is in charge of that.

45:56 um you know given his past uh comments and beliefs about uh about

46:02 how to how to deal with these kinds of uh pandemics and epidemics.

46:06 Um John Melany is a comedian uh who did the famous uh

46:11 Trump is the horse in the hospital bit which is really good.

46:15 Um uh he was he he had a comedy show at the Hollywood Bowl this weekend and some

46:20 of the video uh leaked of that and it's so good I just want to play it for you.

46:24 Back when I lived in New York,

46:25 he was in charge of a thing called the River Keepers.

46:28 They were in charge of keeping the Hudson River clean.

46:31 That was his job.

46:33 That's how good he is at jobs.

46:36 His old job was keeping the Hudson River,

46:39 whose native fish is tied off used condom, clean.

46:44 Now he's in charge of your bones and your tummy.

46:48 Stupid Your thing can't be the measles.

46:52 Did you get the measles?

46:55 Did you read the cardos from me?

46:58 Do you like having the measles very much?

47:04 So that leaves me pretty concerned about the haunt virus, I guess.

47:07 I don't know.

47:10 Yeah.

47:10 No, not I think I'm staying off cruise.

47:12 I was going to stay off cruise ships anyway for the next n years, maybe forever.

47:17 Yeah, that's the easier way to say that.

47:20 I think I I think I'll just stick with that resolution.

47:23 Yeah.

47:24 You're not going to go on the MAGA gay cruise.

47:26 We had a list.

47:26 We did what's going on with that.

47:28 Have you looked at that?

47:30 That's your kind of Yeah, I have an update.

47:32 I have an update.

47:33 Uh there was a cruise of gay MAGA influencers.

47:37 For people who don't follow, who are just pod only,

47:40 we do a series of videos with Will

47:41 Summer and me and Sam Stein called Trio Videos

47:44 where we talk about the craziest stuff happening

47:46 in MAGA um over on the B takes feed.

47:48 and we did one on this and I didn't really know a whole lot about it.

47:51 I just I'd seen a MAGA gay that I follow had posted about his time there

47:56 and and so we kind of we watched that video

47:58 and made fun of him and rifted on that.

48:00 that after we published a listener uh posted on the Bor Reddit

48:07 page that they were on the ship that they they hadn't like

48:10 rented out a ship for the Mag Gay cruise like when you

48:15 did the weekly standard cruises I assume it was all weekly standard.

48:18 No no no times you would get 250 cabins

48:20 on a thousand cabin ship and then you would eat together

48:23 and you would have your own seminars and stuff

48:25 and your own you know you'd get the ballroom but no no

48:28 so I did not realize that.

48:29 Yeah.

48:30 Yeah.

48:30 And so in this case, that cruise was about a third.

48:32 And then this person was posting the pictures of them,

48:35 like all of the gays in their red shirts, like over on the corner of the boat.

48:40 And they weren't the cute gays.

48:42 We should at least say that.

48:43 But I I don't I I just I can't imagine I mean,

48:47 a I can't imagine going on a cruise vacation in any circumstance.

48:51 But talk about the bad luck.

48:52 And I guess if you had to rank worst luck of getting on cruises,

48:56 getting on the Hivirus cruise would be definitely number one.

48:59 You know, since your life is at risk, the poop cruise,

49:02 I think number two would be the second worst.

49:05 But then getting on a cruise and having it be the game,

49:08 I think that has to be number three.

49:14 Nice three generation family from, you know, Witchah, Kansas.

49:19 you this is going to the 75th birthday of the grandparent.

49:23 This is how a lot of these cruise things, right?

49:24 You know, the the teenage kids,

49:27 the nice in between the parents your age and then Yeah.

49:30 showing up on the pool.

49:32 A guy in a Hillary for prison speedo.

49:35 You're like, "What?" Okay.

49:39 I want to go with the uh your newsletter

49:41 this morning was about I told you there'd be laughs.

49:42 The newsletter this morning was about the gold statue.

49:46 I I because we have the policy of not playing Trump's voice.

49:48 I'm not going to play the audio.

49:50 Uh, but there was a dedication of a golden calf at Mara Lago.

49:56 I I I don't know any other way to say it.

49:58 Um, it's just a bit it looks just like Kim Jong-un's golden statue.

50:03 It looks just like the calf from the Old Testament.

50:05 That's more of your area than mine, the Old Testament.

50:07 Maybe you have some ruminations on that.

50:09 U Trump calls in to the dedication, talks about how great it is,

50:14 how excited it is, how excited he is.

50:16 He talks about how he went to the golf course.

50:18 People were complimenting him about the golden statue.

50:22 Um, Pastor Mark Burns, uh, who was the pastor, I guess,

50:26 in charge of the statue, posted this today at Trump National Derell.

50:31 History was made.

50:32 I'm deeply honored to lead the dedication event for President Donald J.

50:36 Trump, the unveiling of the 22 foot statue created in his honor.

50:40 This was far more than a ribbon cutting.

50:42 It was a moment for gratitude, honor, and remembrance.

50:46 Let me say this plainly.

50:47 This is not a golden calf.

50:51 The statue is not about worship.

50:53 It is about honor.

50:55 So I don't know.

50:58 Doth protests too much a little bit maybe.

51:00 What do you have any thoughts on that?

51:02 I think let me say this plainly.

51:04 This is not a golden calf.

51:05 It's like not a good thing you ought to have to say

51:08 about something if you're a pastor

51:10 blessing and consecrating this wonderful grotesque.

51:14 pretty ugly, too.

51:15 I looked at Why was it a pastor if we're not worshiping it?

51:17 Then why was I shouldn't it have been a layman?

51:20 I don't know what the clergy is.

51:21 They could put up the idiotic statue.

51:23 It's his own golf course.

51:24 I guess it's private property.

51:25 None of the rest of us has to see it anymore after this one video.

51:29 Um it is but that much well-deserved ridicule for Pastor Burns.

51:34 Um a lot of people rallying to his defense.

51:36 that guy Jeff who's like an anti-gay anti-semitic

51:40 racist uh anti actually uh uh pastor I guess

51:46 is your policy that we don't call them pastors

51:47 if we don't I mean I'm I'm open to

51:49 pastor Doug I didn't want to call a pastor pastor Doug Wilson because he

51:52 doesn't seem to even like do any pastoring like his entire persona is just

51:58 that he's a pastor that like wants to bring slavery back so Jeffris I

52:03 don't I I remember him being very bad there's a big controversy around McCain.

52:07 Yeah.

52:07 Terrible.

52:07 McCain said he did.

52:08 He does have a church.

52:09 I think I mean somewhere down there.

52:11 I don't know.

52:12 I don't I'm on the fence.

52:12 I'm okay with it.

52:13 We're just calling Okay.

52:14 Pastor Yes.

52:15 P the pastor does protest too much about this.

52:17 It's not It's not a golden calf, you know.

52:20 Don't Everyone's immediately sees it and thinks

52:22 and quote consecration and everyone immediately thinks golden calf.

52:27 So the first words out of his mouth are is that a golden calf?

52:30 Don't even think about that.

52:30 You know, it's raising some additional questions.

52:33 Um you could have made it silver.

52:35 could have made it orange.

52:36 Trump's orange.

52:37 That would have been an option.

52:40 Trump tweeted that it's like it's the real deal.

52:42 It's gold.

52:42 It's of course like 1/8 inch as I understand 16 inch gold leaf.

52:46 Whatever.

52:47 It's it's gassly.

52:48 And um but at least it's I mean I make this point in the newsletter.

52:52 It's it's it's not his stupid golf people

52:55 signed up for Trump dural have to endure it.

52:58 I suppose I think the world leaders isn't

52:59 the G20 meeting there at the end of this year.

53:00 They have to walk by it.

53:02 How humiliating.

53:02 I mean really you're the leader of a senator.

53:05 semi-serious country and you have to walk

53:06 by this 22 foot grotesque gold statue of Trump

53:10 which he's he's put up I mean electrically doers have put up at his club

53:14 you know and he's thrilled about it thrilled

53:16 that people he was thrilled when he called

53:17 in that people are taking pictures of it with of themselves with it on the other

53:21 hand polit it's not good for Trump it just I think in the sense politically

53:25 it brings home even more it's all all he cares about is himself and then

53:29 of course I do think the arch

53:30 here in Washington which would intrude on Arlington

53:33 cemetery So that's not something that that's one

53:36 of our most sacred most sacred public spaces.

53:39 That's a different matter than putting up some idiotic

53:41 statue of yourself at your private club and the ballroom.

53:44 He wants a billion dollars for Democrats

53:46 really need to go crazy about that stuff.

53:48 I I I'm worried they're like being a little too, you know,

53:50 we got to focus on affordability, Tim,

53:52 and I kitchen table and the gas prices, which is important.

53:55 It's all the same.

53:56 It's all the same.

53:57 But he is I mean the the solopsism, the narcissism, the focus on this.

54:02 Couldn't care less about the gas prices.

54:03 Sean Duffy doesn't care about none of them cares about

54:05 them in that guy right the energy secretary maybe he does

54:08 a little better job pretending to at least be concerned

54:10 about them I don't know but they're not it's pathetic really

54:14 uh none of them cares about what actual people are going through and I

54:17 say this in in the newsletter I think you and I discussed this maybe

54:21 shortly after 2016 when Trump said in 2016 um Hillary says want you

54:28 to say I'm for her but I say I'm with you I'm with her.

54:33 I'm with I'm with you.

54:34 Right.

54:34 That was I'm with her.

54:34 I'm with you.

54:35 I'm with her.

54:35 That was their proud slogan.

54:37 You first woman president and uh and I say I'm with you.

54:40 And I remember thinking when I heard that first

54:42 I think in some speech in New York,

54:43 but then at the convention in Cleveland think that's a pretty effective line,

54:47 you know, and and he's done.

54:48 And then of course with Kamala, it was the same thing.

54:50 He's she's for she's with them.

54:52 She's for them.

54:52 They I'm I'm I'm with you.

54:55 Um I that I'm with you thing is gone.

54:58 And people need to just hammer home that he's from only could care less.

55:01 He's a narcissist who cares only about himself.

55:03 And the ballroom, the statue, the arch are pretty good,

55:07 concrete examples of it that people can understand, I think.

55:10 Amen.

55:11 I think it's a big political opportunity.

55:13 Um, it does make you a little sick to your stomach.

55:14 I I don't really consider the dural part.

55:16 I just like the fact that the G7 is a Dale is a total insane affront.

55:21 Thinking about Matt Glaciius post about this this weekend.

55:23 It's just I got mad all over again

55:25 about the coverage of Hillary's email server from 2016.

55:28 and he like posted an analysis of it and it was

55:30 like the three major nightly news spent like 4x more time

55:34 on on her email server than all policy issues combined

55:37 and it's like they're not they don't even cover this stuff anymore.

55:41 You know what what server is is Jared Kushner talking to uh BB and NBS on.

55:46 I I don't think a public server that we that we can get access to, you know,

55:50 and like the whole thing is absurd.

55:52 And you know, so there's not even the commensurate level of outrage

55:57 at all about the fact that the G7 is at Dell.

56:00 But then on top of that, to have like Friedrich Mirths walking by like

56:04 the Trump golden calf when he comes to the G7, it's like ridicul.

56:09 It's it's crazy.

56:10 It's it's it's sickening and hopefully politically useful, but sickening.

56:15 And I was thinking about that in the context

56:16 when we were in the green room discussing.

56:18 We have our bull work fab in DC on Wednesday.

56:22 And so pod might be out at a weird time on Wednesday, FYI, on that.

56:25 We'll we'll we'll have a full announcement for you

56:27 guys tomorrow and how we're going to do it.

56:28 But um I I'm kind I'm like I don't want to have

56:32 to go by the buildings that have his face on it, right?

56:35 I don't know how you all live there to be honest.

56:36 Like that makes me kind of sick just like

56:38 thinking about it about how how gross it all is.

56:42 And that's of a piece with the calf, too.

56:44 So, I don't want to end us on a down note.

56:47 So, we're g uh there was the Netflix was a joke thing last night.

56:50 I don't I didn't really have an angle for bring

56:53 for like a deep political analysis angle for this Chelsea Handler joke.

56:58 It just was very satisfying.

57:00 So, um Bill, why don't I say goodbye to you and then we can just

57:03 leave people with a little we can

57:05 just listen to Chelsea Handler together and laugh.

57:06 How does that sound?

57:07 I'm for that.

57:08 It's been good being with you.

57:10 Thank good Now we'll listen to the joke.

57:12 will laugh and I'll see you tomorrow, right in DC.

57:15 Yeah, we'll see you tomorrow night.

57:16 We'll see you on Wednesday in DC.

57:17 Everybody else will be back tomorrow with another edition of the podcast.

57:22 Here's Chelsea.

57:23 Now that your favorite leader is making the draft mandatory,

57:26 I assume that all of you will be signing up to go fight in Iran.

57:29 Or do you tough talking only go to the Middle East for comedy?

57:33 I'm so happy we can say again.

57:39 Bye everybody.

57:39 See you tomorrow.