Jon Lovett Opens Up About Graham Platner’s Scandals & If Chuck Schumer Was Right

0:00 Hey, welcome back to the Ing Good Faith

0:01 podcast where every week I'm talking to people

0:03 I think are the most important and influential

0:05 people in the world and in specific sectors.

0:07 And this week my guest is pod save America and love it or leave it John Love it.

0:11 Right.

0:11 And John was a speech writer for then Senator Hillary Clinton

0:14 before going to the White House to write for President Obama.

0:16 He was also a Hollywood producer and maybe

0:18 his highest honor being a contestant on the show Survivor.

0:20 He'd probably consider that neck andneck with his Pod Save America Empire.

0:23 But today we just we talked about so much.

0:25 We covered Graham Platner, the the tearing down of the White House,

0:27 the neverending government shutdown, and ultimately who John Love It is.

0:31 Yeah, I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I enjoyed doing it.

0:33 And if you did, definitely subscribe, give it five stars on Spotify and Apple,

0:36 and give it a like on YouTube.

0:38 So, John, I'm going to I'm going to do something I don't normally do.

0:40 It's it's kind of a dealer's choice.

0:41 Do you want to dive straight into the the the news of the now,

0:44 and that might be heavier, or do you want to go light?

0:46 Because I want to talk about news, but I also want to talk about you.

0:48 I'm I'm interested in both.

0:50 Let's hit the news.

0:51 Let's start with the news.

0:52 Let's get to the light later.

0:54 Okay.

0:54 So, I think the only way to kind of like introduce this now,

0:57 this is going to be up on uh Thursday, I believe, morning.

1:01 Uh Graham Platner, where are you at right now?

1:05 It's kind of like taken over at least.

1:07 Once again, I don't know how much of the news cycle that actually

1:09 even takes over because everything I I consume is algorithmically uh pushed.

1:13 And so, all of a sudden, I'll start getting I'll be like, "Oh,

1:15 this is everywhere." And initially, it's just,

1:17 you know, 300 like tweets, stuff like that.

1:19 But Graham Platner, uh where are you at with it right now?

1:23 his, you know, this blew up in part because he

1:26 he popped on uh the the Pod Save America pot.

1:29 Yeah.

1:30 So, all right.

1:31 Graham Platner, really interesting guy, really interesting life, right?

1:36 somebody that uh served in the Marines, left the Marines,

1:40 joins the army, uh comes home pretty disillusioned, pretty angry,

1:45 has a Reddit phase that's pretty heinous and ugly, picks himself up,

1:50 becomes an oyster farmer, builds a happy life,

1:54 decides he wants to run for office.

1:56 Now, it's becoming a debate about this person,

1:59 but I also think it's a bigger debate, too.

2:02 So, uh, in the midst of this, it turns out,

2:06 uh, oh, he does have a Nazi tattoo, which which stinks.

2:11 You know, you hate that.

2:13 You hate that, right?

2:14 Because that sounds really bad.

2:16 You know, to find out somebody has a Nazi tattoo,

2:19 a tattoo of a skull that's associated with a specific unit of the Nazis,

2:24 you know, look, there's a lot of people that are becoming a bit too familiar,

2:27 bit too friendly to the ideas of the Nazis.

2:29 I don't care for that.

2:31 But uh at least in the Democratic party in full cast out uh he

2:37 explains it that he didn't that he didn't know where the that that the symbol

2:41 was associated uh with the SS that it was a bunch of guys

2:45 drinking while uh um uh in Croatia uh while they were serving.

2:52 they got a tattoo because it looked scary,

2:55 that he had made it through army vetting,

2:57 that he had made it uh through a security

2:59 check and nobody had flagged it as being hateful.

3:03 Uh he even shared on Pod Save America

3:06 video of him dancing shirtless at a wedding.

3:08 A Jewish person was apparently uh one of the people in that wedding.

3:11 Not something you would do if you knew it was a a Nazi tattoo.

3:14 Apparently, since he's recorded Ponzi America, he's gotten it covered up.

3:18 He's turned it into something else.

3:20 uh uh some sort of a an animal wolf wolf of some kind.

3:25 Um and so I think there's like two big questions.

3:28 Um one is should Graham Platner be a senator from Maine?

3:32 And the other is what do we do uh

3:35 when confronted with somebody with a story like Graham Platner's?

3:38 Now the first one I actually like I I don't[ __] know.

3:41 Like the other uh one of the other candidates the the is is Janet Mills.

3:48 She's the governor.

3:49 Uh there are people who feel very strongly that she

3:52 has proven that she knows how to win in Maine,

3:54 that she has a record, that she's less of a risk.

3:57 I think that's a completely fair argument.

4:00 I'm not a Maine voter.

4:02 I have no[ __] idea what the best calculus is on the politics.

4:06 So, you put that aside.

4:07 JD Vance the other day uh said that a group of young Republicans

4:12 in a group chat between roughly 18 to 40 uh making jokes about gas chambers

4:18 and Hitler and a bunch of racist jokes that these are just kids telling

4:22 offensive jokes who deserve to be given

4:25 grace who shouldn't have their lives ruined.

4:28 Not but a few weeks before in the wake of the heinous Charlie Kirk

4:31 assassination uh he says that people who

4:35 made offensive comments online should be fired.

4:37 The administration is even saying people

4:38 who made offensive comments should be deported.

4:41 That that would ruin somebody's life.

4:44 And so I don't think it's that hard to be consistent.

4:46 And what consistency requires is holding people accountable

4:51 for their words and their actions while at the same

4:54 time being willing to listen and to be

4:57 open to the possibility that people can change, that they can apologize,

5:02 uh that they be that they can become better versions of themselves.

5:05 doesn't mean every apology is sincere.

5:07 Doesn't mean you have to accept every apology.

5:09 But if we don't allow for a politics in which apologies uh can be real.

5:14 It means that people are always defined by their worst

5:17 moments and we don't give people the space to become better.

5:20 And if we don't give people the space to become better,

5:22 people will will prove you right.

5:26 And so [clears throat] I don't know what the politics dictates.

5:30 And I and I look, I I think there

5:31 are people sincerely shocked by Graham Platner's comments and there

5:35 are people who are like stunned by the fact

5:37 that anybody could have had this tattoo for this long,

5:39 maybe don't find his explanations plausible.

5:41 I think that has just something he has to deal with.

5:43 He has to address.

5:44 He has to like answer for it.

5:46 Like we have to build a welcoming movement.

5:48 We have to build a movement that says to people,

5:51 "Hey, you could have had a dark face.

5:54 You could have had a Reddit face.

5:56 Like the internet incentivizes people to be

5:58 cruel and mean and and radical and extreme

6:02 to get a rise out of each other that and we know where that path can lead.

6:06 And if there's people that have gotten off

6:08 that path and found community and connection and and found

6:11 a way out like we should be welcoming to them because that's a good unto itself,

6:14 but also because those can be a voice for others,

6:17 can be a help to others, a path for others to follow.

6:20 Now there's a huge space between being welcoming and making somebody a senator.

6:25 totally understand that.

6:26 But there's also a big space between saying uh

6:30 somebody shouldn't be a senator and[ __] this guy.

6:33 He said those things, that's enough for me.

6:36 He has this tattoo.

6:37 That's enough for me.

6:39 Uh like that kind of politics to me is really counterproductive.

6:43 Trump believes in kind of being close-minded in like a politics of domination,

6:48 in seeing the worst in people, appealing to the worst in people.

6:50 That's an authoritarian tendency and like the internet kind

6:54 of drives that in us a little bit, right?

6:55 Like a kind of a desire for like domination

6:58 and control to like prove your right to own people.

7:02 We have to appeal to a kind of more of a democratic virtue.

7:05 And maybe this is earnest and maybe people roll their eyes,

7:07 but what is the opposite of what what Trump is offering here?

7:10 It's being vulnerable and curious and open and generous.

7:14 uh doesn't mean you don't have a a firm like position that people

7:18 need to be held accountable for the bad[ __] they've done and said.

7:21 Um but we've got to be able to sit in the discomfort

7:24 of knowing that people are complicated and they live complicated lives.

7:28 Like this guy like clearly came out of the military a broken person,

7:34 hurt and angry and disillusioned and nihilistic and got out of it.

7:38 That's amazing.

7:39 That's inspiring.

7:40 like see past the the the politics of it just to see that as a story

7:45 that you can find some hope in even

7:47 if you have questions even if it's not perfect.

7:49 So maybe not a perfect question because it does sound like the way

7:52 that you're talking about it you're talking about a very complicated situation.

7:55 I mean with what we're seeing as far as how

7:57 it's playing out and it's different depending on where you go.

7:59 Does this feel like just does this feel like to a certain

8:02 degree purity testing but also with a mix of uh people

8:06 that have genuine concerns slash people kind of trying to jump on it

8:10 and throw water on the campaign before it can fully get started?

8:13 [sighs] You know, I don't know.

8:15 I don't I like you know one person's um you know

8:19 one person's purity test is another person's like reasonable moral line, right?

8:24 Like we all have tests.

8:25 Of course we have to.

8:26 That's that's that's how you decide who should be, you know,

8:30 whether a representative of you, part of your coalition, right?

8:33 We all have different a sense of what those boundaries should be.

8:35 So I I really don't know.

8:37 I think some people are genuinely sincere.

8:39 I think there is also like a pylon kind of culture.

8:42 I I also think people have just a lot

8:44 of pent up frustration and anger about the state of politics.

8:50 And u it's more fun to yell at a parent who listen sometimes.

8:54 And like I think people like arguing uh uh internally inside of the coalition

9:00 and yelling at people because they know they'll get a rise out of somebody.

9:02 They know it's somebody who cares what they have to say.

9:04 I think there's a little bit of that going on.

9:05 Uh but and then I think a lot of times we

9:09 see people like rehash their previous thing that bugged them, right?

9:15 It's like it's like we kind of have these sort of it

9:18 ends up being a a a left center left divide.

9:21 People think of it as like a rehash of Hillary versus Bernie,

9:25 whatever the like the kind of people will like find the grooves

9:28 of the previous fights and try to make something about that.

9:32 Like I I I don't know my like I

9:35 I just trying to just be honest about the complexities

9:39 of it because so much of what the politics

9:42 through the through like the current kind of noisy algorithmic

9:46 media does is it kind of like just rips

9:48 out context and destroys nuance and like just rewards people

9:52 for being uh um pretty simplistic about this kind

9:55 of stuff and it incentivizes people to feel that way.

9:58 And all I can say is like I I I think we got to fight

10:01 that and that's something you can we can

10:03 what's great is you can actually do that yourself.

10:05 You can you can fight that and like not be a participant in that.

10:08 Sometimes I wonder though well not wonder I

10:09 think that it is I'm more of a cynic.

10:11 I think that it ends up being a losing battle because

10:12 even the first question right you gave this very like thoughtful.

10:17 You're still figuring it out.

10:18 Seven minute answer and it's like you know 30 seconds is getting clipped.

10:23 You know that's going to happen.

10:24 I should I could have been pierier.

10:25 I should have been pissier but I'm sorry.

10:27 I'm not I'm not putting it on you.

10:28 I'm just saying it feels like a losing losing battle because otherwise

10:31 then you're talking and talking points and you're not being a real person.

10:34 Yeah.

10:34 Look, I I don't know.

10:37 I I still think that people offline are uh not only complicated themselves,

10:46 but willing to entertain other people's complications.

10:49 Uh people are much more generous and compassionate and open

10:53 in the real world than they are on the internet.

10:56 Now, that's a bad sign or a good sign depending on how you see it.

10:58 But I I do think that the loudest voices don't necessarily

11:03 resonate the most and uh people are able to I think

11:08 um people have complicated views despite

11:11 only being exposed often to simple ones.

11:13 I hope I hope.

11:14 Yeah.

11:14 I I did want to ask you one thing.

11:16 I don't know how much you know um as far as the timeline

11:19 because I didn't know when you guys maybe were sent the clip.

11:22 Was it like right with the uh right as the interview was happening?

11:26 Because I I just started thinking like if

11:28 I got a tattoo [gasps] and someone revealed,

11:31 hey, by the way, Nazi[ __] Um how fast I would get that that covered up.

11:37 Um or or like to the point he said it takes a while to get removed.

11:41 So I don't know.

11:41 I didn't know if you knew the timeline.

11:43 I don't know the like the exact like play

11:45 by play but uh you planner came on Pod Save

11:49 America uh recorded Monday and Tommy Vtor my co-host

11:56 basically walked him through like all of the various controversies

12:00 uh and uh as part of it there was this video

12:04 that I don't know what the stat I don't know whether

12:06 it was going to come out how it was going

12:08 to come out but it was uh uh and as clearly like

12:12 I don't know, he seems like a smart guy.

12:14 Certainly, if you knew you had a secret Nazi tattoo,

12:19 uh the way you would handle it wouldn't be to uh show it

12:22 then have a controversy about it and then cover it up the next.

12:26 Certainly a strange way to handle it.

12:28 So, it it lends credence to like the face value explanation

12:31 that like he was caught off guard by what this was.

12:34 Now, maybe he should have known.

12:36 There's a lot of people on the internet

12:38 who are suddenly like uh uh Nazi symbologists.

12:41 Like, I'm sorry.

12:42 Like, I I don't know.

12:43 I've read a lot of books about World War II and Nazis, you know?

12:47 I read the the the the Stevenson trilogy on the r

12:51 the modern retelling of the rise and fall of the Third Reich.

12:54 I'm a Jewish guy.

12:55 Like, I I like I didn't know that symbol.

12:57 I It looked like it was like when I saw it, I was like, "That's a Nazi symbol.

13:00 It looks like it's from Adult Swim." Like

13:01 I I like I would never have thought that.

13:02 It doesn't, you know what I mean?

13:03 You look at you're like, "It looks a little silly, you know?

13:05 Like I had no[ __] idea." Maybe we'll learn that that's not true.

13:09 You know, maybe this is naive.

13:10 you know who I I I don't know.

13:12 I have no idea.

13:13 But, you know, you're just left with the impression of a guy

13:16 that lived a complicated life and maybe one that doesn't

13:20 look like the life led by uh keyboard warriors uh who

13:24 are um typing from high above on their high high horses,

13:28 you know, from way above the ground looking down uh from their keyboards.

13:32 Maybe that's too judgmental.

13:33 Maybe I'm part of the problem.

13:34 Uh but I don't know.

13:36 I like he's he has to answer for it.

13:38 Maybe he hasn't done that enough.

13:39 Maybe there's more he has to say,

13:40 but I think he deserves a chance to answer for it.

13:42 Based off of your experience in the space,

13:43 and I mean, obviously everything's changing.

13:45 I mean, how do you think that this is going to play out?

13:47 Is this is this going to stop his campaign?

13:51 Do you like if this is if they emptied everything out as far as oppo research?

13:55 Do you think he moves forward, he is competitive or wins in the primary?

14:00 What are your thoughts here?

14:01 If you if I I I know people hate to speculate,

14:03 but if there's anyone that I'm going to ask,

14:05 I would I would ask you and a few people.

14:07 You know, I really hate to be in the prediction business.

14:11 Uh I I tr and I sincerely like I have no[ __] idea.

14:14 I'm not from Maine.

14:15 You know, I don't know.

14:16 I I I don't know uh what will happen in the coming weeks.

14:22 Also, by the way, like who knows what other oppos, right?

14:26 There may be other stuff that comes out that that like

14:29 adds to this in a way that's hard to deal with.

14:31 I I like I I don't know.

14:33 I'm not I'm not on the Platiner campaign.

14:36 I have no idea.

14:37 But he is very compelling.

14:38 He like has a perspective that is valuable.

14:46 Clearly it is resonating with people.

14:48 Maine is small enough that you can uh

14:52 have a very personal connection as a candidate.

14:56 Will the argument that Janet Mills is proven and less risky and by the way also

15:01 qualified and like has a record uh

15:04 that people respect like will that win the day?

15:08 I don't know.

15:09 Like I respect that argument.

15:10 I have I have I worry about a Democratic

15:14 party in which the choices between someone unproven, exciting,

15:20 but also a risk and with liabilities versus somebody who's

15:25 77 and uh has has said they'll only serve one term,

15:31 which basically means I guess the risk will push off

15:33 to the next election when what it won't be as important, right?

15:37 like that was the argument used in defense of Biden staying in, right?

15:41 Like that is a that is an argument against investing in new people.

15:46 Now, I know that's that's not that you'd

15:47 have to take that to its logical conclusion.

15:49 You can still have Janet Mills uh be your representative

15:52 in the fight against Susan Collins while investing in in talent,

15:54 but there's a problem of Democrats not investing in talent

15:57 and then when a time comes to run elections saying, "Well,

15:59 I guess it's just the old guard then." and uh hard to you

16:04 know maybe in every maybe in each election that argument makes sense but you

16:08 step all the way back and we're in real trouble here as a party

16:11 people don't know what Democrats stand for young people see don't see

16:15 themselves in the party we're losing people

16:19 that's not Janet Mills's fault and she

16:21 deserves to be evaluated on her own terms and to make her own

16:25 case but um I worry that the risk the true risk the greater

16:31 risk over time is a Democratic party that is not investing in its future.

16:37 Is there anything specific and it's probably a stupid question

16:39 that that is that has put you in this mindset?

16:42 Has it or has it always been kind

16:43 of your mindset as far as reinvesting in in younger talent?

16:49 I mean, is it the Biden of it all?

16:51 Yeah, I mean, it's the Biden of it all, but it was problem before that.

16:55 It was a problem before that.

16:57 even put Biden aside.

16:59 the Democratic leadership in Congress is older

17:03 and but it isn't honestly like age is a is

17:06 a symbol of it but you know I was talking to Tim Miller he's on the bull work

17:14 uh former Republican really smart guy

17:17 and we were talking about why farmers who are getting[ __] over by Trump

17:24 administration policies aren't more of a political

17:26 wedge against those polic policies, right?

17:29 Like if Democrats were pursuing a policy that meant you had to bail

17:35 out farmers because they the market had been wrecked by the administration.

17:40 Oh, and by the way, we're going to take

17:43 the money that comes from the tariffs you're paying at Walmart

17:47 and give it to Argentina for to to bail them

17:49 out while bringing in their beef to undercut American farmers.

17:53 uh uh there like the amount of protest, the amount of attention,

17:57 the amount of political cost that there would be would be staggering,

18:00 but that doesn't seem to to be happening.

18:02 And and why why what's missing?

18:05 And there's a lot missing.

18:06 has a lot.

18:07 It's complicated, but I do think part of it is who are

18:10 the mainstream leading Democrats who you would say could go to uh Nebraska,

18:17 go to uh a a a rural farming community

18:21 and and and speak with force and enthusiasm and authenticity for that group

18:28 of people to that group of people and and like you

18:32 kind of got to go pretty far down the list, right?

18:35 like you start to think, well, Bernie, right, that's somebody who could do it.

18:38 Barack Obama potentially could be somebody that could do it.

18:42 You know, there's Dan Osborne who ran

18:43 as an independent that had uh some purchase,

18:47 but we just over and over again over the last like 20 years,

18:50 you have seen that that Medicaid on the ballot can do well in a red state.

18:55 uh union rules, marijuana legalization, uh choice,

19:00 a bunch of policies on the ballot in a red

19:03 state can actually do really well in Utah, in in Missouri, all across uh states

19:09 that are considered unwinable for for Democrats.

19:12 So why is it that those policies can do well, but the people can't?

19:15 What is missing?

19:16 What are we getting wrong?

19:18 Some of that is not the fault of Democrats.

19:20 Some of that is the media environment.

19:22 Some of that is uh uh right-wing misinformation, sure.

19:26 But it is often easier for Democrats uh to imagine

19:31 what like like we can we can imagine America

19:34 becoming a completely different authoritarian country more easily than

19:38 we can Democrats winning 60 seats in the Senate, right?

19:40 Like there's just we we we don't really know

19:43 even have a we don't even think about it.

19:45 So, uh, we talk about the anti-democratic nature of these institutions,

19:49 which didn't bother us as much when Democrats were,

19:51 uh, able to win in rural states, and we got to figure out why that is.

19:55 Part of that is just figuring out why the Democratic

19:58 party has been reliant on a smaller and smaller coalition.

20:03 I mean, it was connected to something that you were saying.

20:04 I mean, do you are you past this or do you find yourself still every

20:08 day maybe driving yourself insane with the question

20:11 of what if Obama did insert blank?

20:13 What if Obama did or are you past that?

20:15 you're like, or or does that drill into your head?

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21:26 I'm not past it at all.

21:28 I wish I was.

21:29 I'm not past it even a little like I know it's like cliche and like I know it's

21:34 uh uh like almost like beside the point, but it is true, right?

21:39 Like sometimes, you know,

21:41 because we're so drowning in takes and opinions all the time,

21:43 you got to find something new to say, right?

21:46 But sometimes like, you know, boring, immutable,

21:50 kind of constant facts about our situation can still be worth

21:55 saying like what like Barack Obama put his feet on the desk.

22:00 Barack Obama wore a tan suit.

22:01 Barack Obama put mustard on a burger.

22:03 whatever it was.

22:04 Donald Trump puts out a video where he's

22:07 um shooting diarrhea out of an airplane on Americans.

22:12 Uh no comparable reaction.

22:15 Th this is a but like what if Obama stuff whatever.

22:20 But like what is the what is

22:21 the real what is like the asymmetry underneath this?

22:24 Republicans can go on Fox News and insult liberals,

22:29 insult people that live in America's cities,

22:32 make fun of the cities, hate the cities, mock the cities.

22:36 Uh there is no equivalent for a Democrat.

22:39 I mean, could you imagine Elizabeth Warren goes on, I don't know,

22:42 Rachel Matto and starts uh talking about rural Americans being dumb yokals.

22:47 You like, it's inconceivable, right?

22:48 First of all, wouldn't do it.

22:50 Wouldn't have the instinct to do it and wouldn't be good.

22:52 wouldn't wouldn't be seen as good politics.

22:54 Doesn't work, right?

22:55 Like, for whatever reason, Ted Cruz thinks that kind of thing plays,

22:58 but but Elizabeth Warren never would.

23:01 Why?

23:01 Like, what is it about the like the the culture of our politics?

23:05 And and I don't know the answer, but I do think part of it is that Republicans

23:13 have seen for decades the mainstream media as being against them.

23:18 And that's not totally fair.

23:19 But what is true is that mainstream media

23:22 treated Democrats as protagonists and Republicans as antagonists.

23:26 That Democrats had agency, that they were characters,

23:30 uh that you understood and whose motivations were clear

23:33 to you because there's a liberal bias of the people,

23:36 not necessarily always in the coverage, but in the people.

23:38 and Republicans were these outsiders and that was

23:43 a bias against them in some ways,

23:45 but it also meant that that they were able to be outsiders in how they

23:50 talked about the mainstream media and the kind

23:53 of whatever cosmopolitan culture from which it sprang.

23:57 And like that's one reason, but man,

24:00 uh it is amazing uh what uh the different standards are.

24:04 And I think part of it is figuring out like well

24:07 how do maybe we just stop pretending that that's true, right?

24:10 Like maybe we don't maybe and that means saying

24:12 like if Obama couldn't do this, maybe Trump shouldn't, right?

24:14 Like maybe it's okay to call it out.

24:16 I don't know if it's I don't know if I want to ask this as like

24:19 you thinking of this as a from a strategist

24:22 standpoint or maybe just a pure American standpoint,

24:24 but right there's there's a bunch happening at the same time.

24:27 Do you think that there is a which which

24:31 is more of a winning message or or focal point?

24:34 uh Trump, right, demanding that the DOJ uh pay him $230 million.

24:38 The the people who would approve that settlement being his personal lawyers,

24:41 obviously that matters.

24:42 Andor focusing on um the money uh the bailout with uh

24:49 Argentina where to your point like people in the United

24:52 States uh are suffering and most likely depending on how uh

24:56 this shutdown goes and negotiations go going to suffer far more.

24:59 So it's a great question.

25:01 You know, I think sometimes we get ourselves wrapped

25:03 around the axle as like an opposition that's like,

25:08 you know, um we shouldn't be, you know,

25:12 this is just a distra distraction from Epstein.

25:14 Epste is just a distraction from the economy and that's just a distraction

25:18 from the we got to focus on this and not on that.

25:21 And maybe it's unsatisfying, but basically to your point about how we're getting

25:26 information and how you were saying how I don't

25:28 even know what's breaking anymore or what's new or big

25:31 because I just see what's in my feed, right?

25:32 My feed it's, you know, we have like algorithmic pricing for the news and we

25:36 we all see a specific version of the world now.

25:38 Fine.

25:39 But what that means is you got to figure out

25:42 a way to ride these waves of attention wherever they go.

25:47 And that means you have to have an answer for when Trump is talking about

25:52 uh doing a settlement with himself uh

25:55 with the Department of Justice from American taxpayers.

25:58 Uh you got to find a way to ride ride the attention

26:01 wave when they are demolishing the east wing of the White House.

26:05 Uh you've got to get help figure out how to get it in front of people

26:09 that the Trump is doing a bailout

26:11 of Argentina when he promised to do America first.

26:15 That means being interesting and and funny, direct,

26:20 passionate, whatever, in a way that resonates with people.

26:23 And then you've made a you've you've turned

26:25 this into a worse story for him somehow, right?

26:27 The story is bad for Trump, right?

26:29 More people know about it, the worse it is.

26:30 You don't have to put much spin on the ball,

26:32 but our job is to figure out how to get that in front of people.

26:34 Sometimes that's about, you know,

26:35 going into this studio and like just showing the clip and talking

26:38 about it because that's going to get it in front of more people.

26:40 for politicians that's about having a response

26:42 that breaks through and makes news, gets that in front of more people.

26:45 It's like it's a real game of inches and you

26:47 have to be fighting on every one of these stories,

26:49 but it's no longer how it used to be,

26:50 which is there's a limited amount of space in the newspaper.

26:53 So, if we're picking a fight on this, we're not

26:54 going to be able to pick a fight on that.

26:55 Okay.

26:55 So, on the note of it being crazy and it being bad um in, you know,

27:01 with so much feeling bad right now,

27:03 has there been anything that you would say is

27:06 not as bad as you thought it would be?

27:09 What has not been as bad as I thought it?

27:12 That is the closest we're probably going to get to a a light question.

27:16 I

27:17 I'll tell you this.

27:20 I I look, right before there were people

27:23 that were up in arms around the ballroom,

27:24 the pre the presidential the new presidential ballroom,

27:27 and I had my I had trouble getting my dander up about this.

27:30 uh just never been a big uh like I don't you know American

27:35 symbols and you know tradition and all like that's not that motivating to me.

27:41 Maybe that changes because he's literally tearing down the east wing

27:44 of the White House when he actually promised that he wouldn't.

27:46 He said don't worry we're not going to have to uh we're not even going to touch

27:50 it I think is the exact words he

27:52 used maybe paraphrasing and now they're tearing it down.

27:54 So it's another example of him just lying.

27:56 Uh, fine.

27:57 But I think people get get get themselves up in arms

28:00 around that like kind of the theater of Trump and now

28:03 they're tearing down the ballroom and that's a symbol tearing

28:05 down the waste wing and that's a symbol for Trump's destruction.

28:08 Like I don't know like I I don't care that much about that.

28:10 Like he can renovate the White House.

28:12 Um, it's not that important to me.

28:16 I I it's hard because I I do think he has done things

28:20 faster um and more aggressively than a lot of people anticipated.

28:24 myself included, they really were ready.

28:28 They were they were ready.

28:29 Every president, two-term presidents, the first term, uh,

28:34 the White House runs them a little bit, right?

28:36 It's it's an impossible impossible job.

28:39 It's a job that doesn't make sense.

28:40 You're in charge of of missiles, social security checks, welcoming boy scouts.

28:44 It's crazy job.

28:47 Mhm.

28:46 And so there's a way in which of presidents

28:49 have to learn how to take control of it.

28:52 And they tend to do that more in the second term, obviously.

28:56 But Trump had a four-year break that gave a bunch of people time to get ready

29:00 and to make up for the lost time in the first when they were stymied by courts,

29:05 by Congress, and by institutionalists and less enamored,

29:11 less loyal Republicans inside of the administration.

29:14 And they really set out to make sure that didn't happen again.

29:16 Um, and so those positions are no longer filled by uh

29:22 those that lent Trump credibility because he no longer believes he needs that.

29:26 Um, and a lot of those people have been captured um or are afraid.

29:33 And so he's just been able to move faster and run roughshod.

29:38 Uh I was surprised by how fast some of the colleges,

29:41 the law firms, some of the media companies capitulated.

29:44 Hopefully, we're now getting ourselves onto a stronger footing where people

29:48 are learning that there's potentially

29:50 a political price amongst the anti-Trump coalition,

29:52 which does represent a lot of people.

29:55 You're seeing that with colleges being afraid to sign now,

29:57 which is I think good.

29:59 Uh, but is there something where that doesn't happen as bad?

30:03 I like I really You give me What's your example?

30:05 What's something you think that didn't didn't go as bad?

30:07 Oh, no.

30:08 I've been asking people because I think it's

30:11 as bad or at times worse like everything.

30:14 Um I'm I'm here's what I'll say.

30:17 I'm surprised that the economy has not taken a larger hit.

30:21 Um but I think that's being propped up by a few

30:23 things that still could burst and I'm hoping against it.

30:26 But that's where it ends up being in this weird

30:28 situation where it's like I'm hoping for the best.

30:30 Um I'm hoping for the the the least rough uh future, you know.

30:35 Um, but [laughter] it it does there's just a lot happening right now that feels

30:41 like okay that that can work for a short term uh sort of thing.

30:45 But long term uh I do not see it.

30:48 We're just it seems like just very different levels of how

30:53 bad it's going to be and who's going to be impacted.

30:56 So, and I think that's all true and it's

30:58 all very dangerous and it's all very bad.

31:01 Part of what has made it bad, right,

31:03 is you look at like Tim Cook walking into the Oval Office with a bobble,

31:07 Intel giving him 10%.

31:09 Uh Disney and Paramount doing these sort

31:14 of drug deal payments uh settlements for these lawsuits.

31:19 And it's Trump gaining power he probably couldn't take, right?

31:23 Like they could have fought it and won, but they chose not to.

31:26 Same with the law firm.

31:27 Same with the colleges.

31:29 And that's really bad.

31:32 But it is power he couldn't take, right?

31:35 And still couldn't.

31:37 They don't like this is not a the country

31:39 wasn't clamoring for this kind of takeover.

31:44 The these are not popular.

31:47 These are not like popular agenda items.

31:49 75% of the country is angry at Trump for failing to focus on prices.

31:53 and you know through tariffs,

31:55 through immigration crackdowns, he's making those problems worse.

31:59 Seven or eight million people came out as part of the no king's protest.

32:04 One interesting thing that's come out is just in the last couple of days a bunch

32:08 of polling showing that the majority of Americans

32:10 do not believe ICE officers should be wearing masks.

32:13 But beneath that, the number of Americans

32:16 who are now just pro-immigration, not on policy,

32:19 not in any specifics, but just are now pro- immigration has dramatically risen.

32:23 That the crackdown is igniting in people a debate about values

32:30 and people are not coming down on the side of Trump.

32:33 People are not seeing what Trump is doing and coming to respect it.

32:35 Now, there are people who think the crackdown goes too far.

32:38 I think people that that Trump uh is too extreme,

32:41 but they still don't trust Democrats, right?

32:43 They still think that there's a problem Democrats don't understand, right?

32:46 They don't believe or understand what Democrats stand for, who they are,

32:49 what they believe, what they would do.

32:51 Um and so as much as they don't like Trump,

32:53 it's not like they view Democrats so much more favorably.

32:56 It's a huge problem, right?

32:58 But in terms of Trump's agenda, this is not some mass mobilization.

33:02 Like what is their version of a no king's protest?

33:04 How many people would show up?

33:06 It's not there's there's no equivalent.

33:07 That's why they have to make fun of it.

33:09 They can't match it.

33:10 Yeah.

33:10 I don't know.

33:11 I I mean, when you talk about the the way that Dems are are seen,

33:14 I've only recently started going to to local events um because my uh

33:19 my wife's running for school board and so I'm I'm slowly um

33:24 just familiarizing myself uh with the space and I was watching the the head

33:28 of Georgia Dem speak to the small room and it was very

33:32 much like very aware that the the Dems's brand is hurting and kind

33:37 of saying like but it's the best we've got and it It feels

33:41 like that's kind of the message and it and it makes me

33:43 wonder if there if that is something that can grow because even there

33:48 the the people that were angry um about some other recent elections that had

33:54 happened and other messaging is like we have to get past Trump bad, right?

33:59 You look at polling, Trump bad only goes so far.

34:02 Um it maybe helps you during the midterms depending

34:05 on what the hell these midterms even look like.

34:07 Um, and I and I mean that both as as far as like

34:10 trying to get people to not vote as far as uh Republicans.

34:14 Um, or I mean even the the the polling that we're seeing in, you know,

34:17 Virginia and New Jersey.

34:19 Very interested to see what happens there.

34:20 I'm also very interested to know your thoughts there.

34:22 But I don't know.

34:23 It's uh I I do I do wonder if the the Dem brand is

34:28 something that can be revitalized or if it's it is going to be something else.

34:32 Um, and I don't know if you have thoughts there.

34:34 I think look you know big changes happen this is like this is a moment of big

34:39 change right like big transformations happen suddenly something

34:41 new emerges totally possible but I I also

34:44 don't think it's impossible that we slowly

34:46 but surely build a better brand for the Democratic

34:49 party some of that it will just depend

34:51 on charismatic leadership emerging with a story to tell

34:56 uh there was a a poll that came out today or yesterday

35:00 that since the shutdown began approval

35:03 of dem Democrats by Democrats has risen dramatically.

35:06 Right?

35:06 It was like something in the 30s.

35:07 Now it's in like the high 50s.

35:09 So there's just a bunch of people out there,

35:12 Democrats who are desperate to see their leaders put up a fight

35:15 and just seeing Democrats being willing to hang together and say,

35:18 "No, we're drawing the line on healthcare." There's a lot

35:19 of bad[ __] going on, a lot of stuff that's wrong,

35:22 a lot of ways in which we need to fight back.

35:23 A lot of reasons to not fund this government,

35:25 but we're going to draw the line on healthcare.

35:26 We're going to make that our fight.

35:27 We're going to pick that fight and we're going to take it to its end.

35:29 We're going to hang together.

35:30 That's impressive.

35:30 They've done it.

35:31 uh probably better than I think a lot of people

35:33 hope for in terms of the politics of it.

35:35 And it's led people to say, "Okay, they're all right.

35:37 They're willing to do that.

35:38 That that doesn't solve everything.

35:39 There's a lot of problems, but but it tells you that there's uh um

35:44 that like Democrats are willing to listen and say,

35:46 "Hey, thank we like they'll respond, right?

35:49 Like you're willing to fight, we'll have your back, right?

35:52 That's a good sign." Um, you know,

35:54 there was a uh I saw I think I can't remember who it was,

35:58 but there was a question on um about,

36:01 you know, who represents the future of the Democratic party.

36:03 Is it Abigail Spamber or is it uh Zoran Mandani, right?

36:07 And the answer is yes.

36:09 The answer is yes.

36:11 And like my like how do you fight authoritarianism, right?

36:17 Like how do you arrest a downward slide?

36:22 It's really hard to do.

36:23 Nobody has all the answers and it's different every time.

36:26 Um because you're trying to prove a game is

36:29 worth playing against people that don't play by the rules.

36:31 That sucks.

36:32 That sucks.

36:33 But whatever the answers are, it's going to look different in different places.

36:38 It's going to take a bunch of different strategies.

36:39 It's going to take creativity

36:41 and resourcefulness and ingenuity and fast thinking.

36:44 But at root, we do know that the answer

36:48 to a rising authoritarian movement is a mass mobilization,

36:51 a pro-democracy movement big enough to stop it.

36:55 That can take many forms.

36:56 That can look like many things, but that is what it will take.

36:59 That means a bunch of people who are not necessarily natural allies have to suck

37:03 it up and see themselves as allies

37:06 and understand they're part of a big movement together.

37:10 Uh that to me is what we're trying to build.

37:13 And yeah, I want great mainstream democratic

37:17 leadership in Congress to be part of that.

37:19 But it's bigger than them.

37:21 It's going to be it's about them.

37:22 It's about uh religious organizations.

37:25 It's about unions.

37:26 It's about nonprofits.

37:27 It's about um us as individuals.

37:30 It's about using our power not just as voters but as employees,

37:35 employers, students,

37:37 members of of clubs and groups, people that are part of a community, right?

37:41 Like that's the muscle we need to kind of kind

37:45 of work and some of that will be political,

37:48 but I think sometimes we like look to political leadership as going

37:50 to have as as if they're going to have the answer.

37:52 Never have, never will.

37:53 That's not how it works.

37:54 That's us.

37:55 That's going to be us.

37:56 Um, and you know, that's like Vote Save America.

37:59 And what we try to do here at Crooked is we try

38:01 to give people outlets for ways that they can get involved and participate.

38:04 Yes, electorally, but also in between.

38:06 Um, how to organize, how to do the organiz organizing between elections, uh,

38:13 like how to do the relational organizing,

38:14 which is about talking to people in your lives.

38:16 Like we all have to see ourselves as sort of leaders um,

38:19 as part of this pro-democracy movement.

38:21 and to where we started.

38:22 Yeah, part of that is knocking on doors and and and getting

38:25 out there and doing kind of big capital P politics,

38:28 but some of it is about like practicing democracy.

38:31 And maybe that's earnest and people roll their eyes,

38:33 but you have to practice it.

38:34 And democracy is a practice of listening, talking to people,

38:38 being open, being curious, being vulnerable, being generous, right?

38:41 Like th those are de democratic practices

38:44 that Trump is so like innately allergic to.

38:47 Regarding the the higher polling, regarding the the fight,

38:50 I have to ask you, um, is it possible that we, and I'm using a collective we,

38:56 have been underestimating Chuck Schumer's sense of strategy,

39:00 or no, completely different.

39:03 So, I let me let me let me let me practice being generous.

39:07 Uh, I'll try it.

39:08 Not my not my instinct.

39:11 Uh, so I was skeptical.

39:13 I didn't first of all before the shutdown I was like really

39:16 skeptical uh and skeptical in all directions by the way like uh heard

39:22 the arguments that said hey we should not do a shutdown we don't

39:25 have a path out of it the minority party will lose respect that argument

39:30 we should shut the government down over healthcare it's a hinge it's

39:33 a it's a policy on which we have unity it's a it's one

39:36 where we can maybe get some extract some concessions that's the fight we

39:40 should pick and the argument says like are they're shutting down the government.

39:45 I'm sorry.

39:45 They're they're firing people willy-nilly.

39:47 They're they're they're they've got mass agents on the street.

39:50 They're disregarding Congress.

39:52 They're doing open corruption.

39:54 Healthcare, we have to fight this on everything on democracy.

39:57 Every We can't fund a government that is doing a authoritarian takeover.

40:01 Respect that argument, too.

40:02 Healthcare felt like in the middle felt like uh um you know, half a loaf.

40:06 And then yet, it seems to have really put Republicans on their heels.

40:11 It the the country uh is seeing the Democratic argument.

40:17 Uh blame is obviously going to be um shared,

40:20 but it's certainly not falling on Democrats

40:22 the way Republicans would have predicted.

40:24 And it's in a sense about prices and costs in a way that kind

40:27 of resonates with the kind of underlying

40:28 politics of Trump failing on these issues.

40:30 And and like they that was I that seems like it was the right fight.

40:34 I get it.

40:35 Right.

40:35 And that's a that's a strategy coming from uh the leadership in the Congress.

40:39 Good for them.

40:40 The question has always been like as communicators,

40:42 are these the best people to be the voice of an opposition?

40:46 And I I don't think there's anybody who thinks that like

40:49 Chuck Schumer is the great voice of the Democratic opposition.

40:53 Um, so it's it's complicated, but you know,

40:57 like when you ask people to fight and then they fight,

40:59 you should be say, "Okay, thanks.

41:01 I'm glad you're doing that.

41:01 I appreciate that." You know, like I I I don't think he's perfect.

41:04 He hasn't stopped being Chuck Schumer in all

41:06 the ways that he can be silly and some

41:08 of the videos don't work and he's kind of goofy from he's an old school guy.

41:11 He's like from the era of like the Sunday

41:13 press conference to get in the Monday papers.

41:15 It's just a different different generation.

41:17 Um but I'm glad they picked this fight

41:18 and I'm glad he's holding people together.

41:21 When you see uh certain politicians like Marjorie

41:23 Taylor Green uh voicing the concern around healthcare

41:27 and and and [snorts] and do you see

41:28 articles that that say like Marjorie Taylor Green,

41:31 welcome to the to the left or things like that?

41:34 Uh do you do you think that this is it's a it's a broken clock situation?

41:38 She is a true uh America first ideologue

41:41 that that's separating from from the the party.

41:43 What what what are your thoughts there?

41:45 It's really interesting.

41:47 It's strange, right?

41:48 Like because it's not just that she's like it's not a one-off comment.

41:50 Like she's giving interviews that are pretty thoughtful, right?

41:53 Like these are like long these are like wholesome comments that like,

41:56 okay, you're making a lot of sense.

41:57 I I I have I have no idea, you know?

42:00 I I uh maybe it is a broken clock situation.

42:04 I do think there's something there are a lot

42:08 of different kinds of ways somebody becomes MAGA.

42:13 Uh there are some people that are purely cynical, purely cynical, right?

42:17 The Rubio's, the JD Vances.

42:20 Uh there are people that are scared, right?

42:22 that they're they're they're just they're along

42:24 for the ride and uh they don't like it,

42:28 but they're not going to put their heads up.

42:30 They want to keep their seats.

42:31 They don't want to beounded.

42:32 They're they're nervous about it.

42:34 Um there people that have justifi it like if I weren't here,

42:37 somebody else would be people a lot of stories people tell.

42:40 Um but it's interesting like

42:41 the people that are genuinely ideologically motivated.

42:45 Uh I I think Marjorie Taylor Green is one of those people.

42:47 I think Thomas Massie is one of those people.

42:49 I don't like their views.

42:50 I don't agree with them.

42:50 I think they have some pretty heinous views.

42:52 Um, but uh there's sincerity to it, right?

42:56 Like I don't think does anyone think Marjorie Taylor Green is doing a show?

42:59 Like I I think she I think she operates from conviction.

43:02 Some of them are kooky.

43:03 A lot of them pretty wrong to me.

43:05 But you know and uh maybe that speaks to something like real about her politics.

43:14 It's been like whenever Trump was even in the first term, right?

43:17 Like there were places where Republicans in Congress were willing to buck

43:21 Trump and one of them was the Freedom Caucus around spending, right?

43:25 Like there they have sincere conviction and that led

43:28 them to take positions that bothered Trump.

43:31 Sometimes he would tolerate it, right?

43:33 Ran Paul's like this too.

43:34 Sometimes they would tolerate it,

43:35 but sometimes they would like sometimes he would like attack them.

43:38 Massie is now turned on completely.

43:40 Um but like there are still places where like interesting like

43:43 they care more about that than they do about pleasing Donald Trump.

43:46 Marjorie Taylor Green, I have no idea, but like it seems sincere.

43:51 Uh I'm sure she'll get back to sincerely

43:54 holding positions I find disgusting soon enough.

43:57 But I'm glad she's making these points

43:58 about healthcare because they're completely true.

44:00 I'm glad she's sincerely pointing out that they're preventing

44:03 a a member of Congress from taking office because they

44:05 don't want to release the Epstein files or that the House

44:07 of Representatives has not been in session for weeks,

44:10 not just because of a shutdown,

44:11 but because they're afraid of this uh resolution uh

44:14 that would certainly pass once they've seated this new member.

44:16 So, like, yeah, glad she's out there.

44:18 When somebody's saying the right thing, it's okay to say that.

44:21 And I mean on the note of uh you know what

44:23 people actually believe or their intent I to kind of switch more

44:27 to you uh I was interested what first drew you to politics

44:31 like was it idealism curiosity a sense of responsibility a gig?

44:37 Oh that's interesting.

44:38 I no um I was motivated by uh anger and desire to please my teachers.

44:45 That's probably what it was.

44:46 No I I you know like I was a a like closeted pretty closed off kid.

44:54 Uh I think politics was a like an access point

44:59 to um a place where I could like get to be smart,

45:04 you know, and like learn about something and be smart about it.

45:07 Um and like get like and and and in a way that allowed

45:12 me like vent about something without talking about the real thing, right?

45:16 You could be mad about politics.

45:17 You could be mad at Republicans.

45:19 You could have these views,

45:20 but you I'd never have to say like, "And oh, by the way,

45:23 it's because I'm afraid to say um that I'm

45:26 attracted to to to uh to to men." And so,

45:30 like, you could just get out of having to say

45:32 that, but you could still have these enthusias enthusiastic positions.

45:36 And I think that was part of it.

45:39 Um, was there was there a specific

45:43 moment where you took a took a step or um went a little

45:47 further because I mean for me uh I've talked about it with my audience.

45:50 It was I was in college for a completely different thing and uh I

45:53 I made a video because Rush Limbbo was randomly taking shots at Michael J.

45:57 box and I was like, "That's insane." And that was

46:00 randomly the thing that that got me uh sounding off.

46:03 And so I didn't know if there was a single thing for you or it was just kind of

46:07 No, it was just like a slow like a slow steady kind of focus.

46:11 Um I like remember I I was always interested

46:15 in in national politics and I remember when I was in college,

46:21 I was also interested in how it tied into campus politics.

46:24 when I was a student, I think it was my s was my sophomore year, my junior year.

46:29 Two friends and I uh made a website.

46:35 It was called Fact Track, faculty tracker.

46:38 And the idea was you could rate and review professors and courses.

46:42 This is like before or maybe

46:43 at the very same time that ratemyprofessors.com was launching.

46:46 So this is like literally is this like 2001?

46:50 I was 2001 maybe we're talking about like really like a long time ago.

46:54 And we were we built this thing

46:56 and it was literally just because there was nothing.

46:59 There was no forum.

47:00 There was nowhere for people to ask about professors or classes,

47:02 what they liked, what they didn't like.

47:03 So, oh, we're going to make this.

47:04 We didn't think about it as like a company.

47:06 It was literally something we're going to donate like

47:08 kind of make a part of the Williams website.

47:09 Williams College is where I went because we thought it

47:11 would be like a nice service that people would like.

47:13 Meanwhile, like a couple years later,

47:14 ramy professors.com sold for like several hundred million.

47:16 Like, oh my god, we're[ __] morons.

47:18 But, uh, we just wanted to make something that we thought would be helpful.

47:21 And we got a ton of[ __] for that.

47:23 Like we got a lot of[ __] uh from people that were like this is wrong.

47:28 There shouldn't be a place where you can anonymously review people.

47:32 Uh was it primarily faculty that had this opinion?

47:35 Yes.

47:35 Yeah.

47:35 There were some students that sided with them

47:37 but yes it was faculty that found it to be intrusive and they had we had

47:42 we didn't know what we like we weren't programmers.

47:44 I I like I was certainly didn't know anything about programming.

47:47 They knew a little but like it was a really rudimentary thing

47:49 and they were like well people outside of the campus can post.

47:51 It's like, oh, we figured out how to stop that, right?

47:53 So, like you, it was basically a website for people on the Williams

47:56 College campus to anonymously review and rate faculty and write things.

47:59 Was there was no numbers was like literally just write a review.

48:02 Um, professors including professors in which uh two

48:06 of the like my friends were in the class, right?

48:08 They they made the website, they're in the class,

48:10 professors railing against it in the class.

48:12 Uh, the Boston Globe comes and like writes about

48:14 the controversy and refers to us as a as libertarian sophomores.

48:18 um a reporter that went on to be

48:20 a big political reporter at the times years later.

48:24 And it was a very kind of it was an influential moment.

48:27 It was like a it was a um an important

48:30 moment because uh I remember feeling so like um shocked

48:37 by the outrage over it because it was so clear

48:40 to me that this was like like what are you afraid of?

48:42 Like what are you afraid of?

48:43 you're afraid of people talk like saying how they feel about it like

48:48 it's going to be too mean like it was a preview of to me

48:51 of like kind of the what what politics would become right which is

48:56 like I'm sorry this is literally just people being free to say how

49:00 they feel about the classes and and sharing that information with each other

49:04 um but you want to find a way to talk yourself out of it

49:07 to say that it's wrong because you what you don't like this kind

49:10 of speech um and that was a little bit radical radicalizing for me.

49:16 Uh but uh I was already

49:19 It sounds like it was you know you shook up power dynamics and you know

49:23 that that sort of that sort of reaction

49:25 it's not uncommon when we when we see it.

49:28 Um but also I mean on the note of speech um I I

49:31 was interested you know with with your history of uh in your time

49:34 of writing speeches in the White House was there was there any

49:38 kind of moment that felt like the the most personally meaningful for you?

49:42 There were a couple.

49:43 I remember during the fight for Obamacare,

49:47 we flew to I believe strongville, Ohio,

49:51 and President Obama was giving a speech about

49:55 the afford about why we needed to pass healthcare reform.

49:58 And uh the there was a woman who was supposed to be a guest

50:02 at the speech because she had

50:04 this story about being unable to afford healthcare,

50:06 how she been just been given a terrible ride

50:08 by an insurance company and all the ways in which

50:11 this law would have prevented what was already

50:14 a terrible health situation from becoming a terrible financial situation.

50:18 And she wasn't able to go to the speech because she had already become so sick.

50:23 and and President Obama ran through all the reasons we needed the bill.

50:26 Like I'm here because we have to do this.

50:28 Uh I'm here because we need to uh

50:31 remove these barriers to people having affordable healthcare.

50:34 I'm here because of NOTM.

50:35 Her name was Noma.

50:36 And I remember feeling like so proud to be

50:39 in the room for that because that felt really meaningful.

50:43 Yeah.

50:44 And I mean when when it comes to impact

50:46 or or maybe I don't know if it's power or control,

50:49 do you feel like you had the ability to be more impactful

50:54 in that role or what you're doing now is you know leading pod save America.

51:00 Um yeah I mean there might be just such drastically

51:03 different things but there is that constant conversation that people have

51:05 of like if I would go into politics or uh if

51:07 I would you know try to impact change from the outside.

51:10 I truly don't think about it that way.

51:11 And I'll tell you like let me tell you how I do think about it.

51:15 Uh which is I remember like when when I was

51:18 a speech writer I remember think like well what's my job right

51:22 and because it's a strange role right like you channel someone

51:26 uh you do what they're not able to do because of time.

51:30 Some people write for presidents that couldn't do it if they wanted to.

51:32 Barack Obama could write the speech if he had the time.

51:33 Doesn't have the time.

51:34 Uh so could a few others, right?

51:36 Uh but what I always felt was you know it's not really

51:40 my job to know the right thing to say to the country.

51:44 It's not my job to understand the politics.

51:47 It's not my job to have the answers.

51:50 It's my it's my job to know what it's President

51:53 Obama's job to know all that stuff and my job is

51:56 to channel what would be the most helpful for him

51:58 in this moment uh to to to say about it, right?

52:02 And so it's his job to know that.

52:04 And if he's doing his job and I'm giving him what he needs as a speech writer

52:08 and the team is able to come together and edit it and and make it what he needs,

52:11 then we're all doing our jobs.

52:13 And like maybe that was a way of dealing with the kind of pressure of it.

52:17 I remember there were we were in the middle

52:18 of the financial crisis and there'd be these jobs numbers

52:23 that would pop out and they'd be horrible right very

52:24 early on and the jobs numbers would come out the markets

52:29 would be about to open and President Obama would need

52:32 to go to the microphones to quickly speak to address

52:35 the numbers explain what they're doing to try to kind

52:37 of temper the reaction put it in context very urgent

52:42 and I remember kind of working

52:44 on those speeches and there'd be the Treasury Secretary

52:48 and the National Economic uh Council head and another

52:51 policy adviser here and a political adviser here,

52:54 other person there, all kind of going

52:56 through the document and taking their edits,

53:00 trying to figure out how to make their edits work,

53:02 trying to get to yes on things.

53:03 Your job is to kind of very quickly kind

53:05 of you don't need to be the best writer,

53:07 you need to be a good writer, you need to be the best at politics,

53:08 you be good at politics, you don't need to be the best collaborator,

53:10 you need to be a good collaborator to do all these things,

53:12 kind of synthesize all this, get this done.

53:14 And I remember you like finalizing the speech and then you'd look over

53:17 on the television screen and there would be the four windows of like CNN, MSNBC,

53:21 C-SPAN, Fox News, whatever the four news

53:23 boxes were and the president's podium would

53:25 be on all of them because they were waiting for the president to speak.

53:29 And so in those moments really like what

53:32 are you going to do with that like pressure?

53:34 And my way of dealing with it was like that's not my pressure, you know?

53:38 That's not like I that's not my pressure.

53:39 It's not like I I'm just I'm the person that happened to be here

53:43 uh to help these people and to help the president figure out

53:46 what he is meant to do in this moment and I have

53:49 a certain like skill set to help them navigate this and write

53:52 their way through it and figure out the rest best way to do it.

53:55 Um but that's how I feel about it.

53:57 And then like for podcasting, uh we're just trying to talk through in real

54:05 time what is happening in a way that is

54:07 helpful for people um and that helps people see

54:10 themselves as agents and participants rather than just frustrated observers.

54:16 There's a lot of media out there that that treats people like observers,

54:20 that watches politics through a pair of binoculars,

54:24 uh that treats it like a nature documentary,

54:26 and we're aliens on the outside of it, but we're not.

54:29 We're citizens and participants.

54:31 And uh we're all seeing the same thing.

54:34 We're all uh uh frustrated by the same things.

54:36 Like there's a lot of people uh that feel the same way.

54:39 And if we can be helpful uh and talk you through it,

54:43 have an honest conversation,

54:44 have a way to separate the signal from the noise, maybe with some jokes,

54:48 uh maybe in a way that helps you feel like you're not

54:51 alone in this, like that's valuable because we got to keep people engaged,

54:54 keep people paying attention.

54:55 outside of the the the Pod Save America world.

54:59 Um, what are I mean because kind of on this note,

55:02 who are like two or three commentators or players

55:05 in this space right now that you think are are

55:08 doing exciting things or you're excited to see what

55:11 they continue to do over the next two, three years?

55:13 Yeah, look, I I think the Bull work, which are a group of former conservatives,

55:21 former Republicans, um, have done something really interesting and praiseworthy.

55:31 You know, being a Democrat who's furious

55:33 at what the Republican party has become,

55:35 like, uh, it's important and I'm glad we're doing it.

55:39 But if you were a Republican and stood up against the tide,

55:43 like that was real cost.

55:45 It was.

55:45 And it is a and and we know that's true because so few[ __] people did it.

55:51 It's wild.

55:52 It is so depressing and embarrassing and and just such a symbol

55:57 of like the depravity of the era that that that all

56:03 of these people that claimed to be principles principled conservatives

56:07 just gave it up at the first sign of trouble.

56:09 But the Republicans that didn't um that was

56:12 hard clearly and that meant risking their jobs.

56:16 That means breaking friendships.

56:18 like that's a real thing they did

56:19 and they built something really principled and I

56:21 think that that's impressive and uh you

56:24 don't have to agree with them on everything

56:26 but to the point we had a conversation we had earlier it's like we need

56:29 to build a movement that's big enough to have space for the center right former

56:34 Republicans all the way to the far left right like I you know there I

56:38 like Medie Hassan I do I like I we we get along I think he's

56:42 really[ __] smart don't agree with him

56:44 on everything um but he's really passionate

56:46 and direct and and confrontational and I think

56:50 sincere um and not afraid of a fight.

56:53 Like I think that's cool.

56:54 I think we need people like that.

56:55 And I just I believe we have to see all

56:59 of those people as being part of one big fight.

57:01 And um yeah, those that those would be the two I'd throw out.

57:06 Okay.

57:06 No, I love that.

57:07 Um, I mean, on the on kind of this kind of same sort of vibe, I mean,

57:10 what are what are something what's something about working

57:14 in politics do you think that that most people,

57:16 even maybe politically engaged people like fundamentally misunderstand?

57:20 Is it is there one like key thing?

57:21 Is it just a lot of things?

57:23 You know, my answer on this has kind of changed over the years.

57:26 Here's like, you know, you see like Mike Johnson,

57:29 speaker of the house, and he goes on television and he says, "Oh,

57:33 there's a hate America rally." where you see uh I don't

57:38 know somebody like kind of dissemble or refuse to be honest about

57:44 something that's so brazen and clear and you think like how

57:47 does a person get that way right like how does that happen

57:50 and it took me time outside of politics to to to feel

57:54 this but I think there's a lot of people that are

57:58 like me when I was a kid in that politics is

58:02 an outlet for feeling a little lonely feeling feeling a little powerless,

58:06 feeling um uh that people don't see you, whatever it may be.

58:12 Um and there are people that I think are drawn to politics because um they're

58:17 really ambitious and they want they want

58:19 that praise and they want that attention, right?

58:21 They they want to take up space.

58:23 And there's a lot of people that start that journey when they're pretty young.

58:26 And because they never get off the ride for even a moment,

58:30 they really don't challenge that mentality at all.

58:33 like politics is so so so important to them.

58:37 It is all they've ever known.

58:40 And then you say, well,

58:41 that's like how does Lindsey Graham go from somebody who was John McCain's

58:44 best friend and someone that Democrats could talk to to become such a radical?

58:50 Why does Joe Biden hang on so long?

58:53 Why does Diane Feinstein refuse to leave office?

58:57 like like why are people willing to to base themselves?

59:00 Not those people specifically,

59:01 but why generally are people willing to debase themselves just to stay

59:04 in politics to get up the next rung of the ladder?

59:06 And the answer is I don't think they[ __] know.

59:09 I just think it's all they've ever done.

59:11 It's all they've ever thought about.

59:13 They've never taken space from it.

59:15 And it's a pretty immature mindset.

59:17 It's a mindset of all they've ever cared about,

59:19 thought about, worried about is politics.

59:22 And uh like I think there's a lot of people like that.

59:25 I mean, there's incredible people that have devoted their lives to politics.

59:28 I don't want to like say otherwise.

59:29 Like, they really are.

59:30 And people who are so earnest and good

59:32 and all they want to do is like they're like, I care about healthcare policy.

59:36 I want to make healthcare policy better.

59:37 I will give my life to it.

59:38 There are tons of people like that.

59:40 You meet them every day.

59:41 They are fantastic and awesome and we're better for it.

59:44 And Trump is trying to undermine those people every day.

59:46 Um, but I do think in terms on the political side,

59:48 I think there's a lot of people that just

59:49 have like unexamined motivations and I and I do think

59:54 it spurs a lot of like the tension and craziness

59:58 u in a way that's like not really talked about.

1:00:01 That make sense?

1:00:02 Yeah.

1:00:02 No, it does.

1:00:03 And you know what?

1:00:03 I'm going to I'm going to ask you kind of one

1:00:05 last question unless you don't have an answer for it,

1:00:08 but uh I would say what do you think is the the most difficult

1:00:10 thing that you've had to confront about

1:00:12 your yourself or reality because of politics?

1:00:15 I think the challenge that I feel, I don't know if it's the biggest,

1:00:19 but I would say it's the one I feel most often

1:00:22 is what does it mean to be productive

1:00:24 in politics as somebody that's communicating about politics?

1:00:27 And that can manifest itself in a lot of ways, right?

1:00:30 Like you were asking like,

1:00:31 do we talk about the $230 million um uh deal for his own

1:00:36 uh uh legal fees or do we talk about the ballroom?

1:00:39 Do we talk about the terrorists?

1:00:40 And sometimes it's like is like I don't want to chase Trump around.

1:00:43 Like Trump is like the kind of media

1:00:45 director for the whole country at this point.

1:00:46 Like he sets the he sets the morning

1:00:48 agenda for everything we're going to talk about.

1:00:49 That stinks.

1:00:50 Like I don't want to chase Trump around.

1:00:51 Like is that what we're supposed to be doing?

1:00:52 Is that right?

1:00:52 Is that productive?

1:00:53 I see why it's you know I understand why we're doing it and I want to confront.

1:00:57 We have to always be fighting back and making

1:00:59 the best argument but like is it productive?

1:01:00 I worry about that.

1:01:02 I also think about it in terms of like honesty because I

1:01:06 want to be like as honest as I possibly can about how

1:01:10 I feel while at the same time knowing that sometimes the biggest[

1:01:14 __][ __] in life are people that say like I'm just being honest.

1:01:18 I'm just being honest, right?

1:01:19 Like that's like the most like the the classic dick headline.

1:01:22 And so it's like I I want to know that like I am

1:01:26 being generous with people that are part of this like with our allies.

1:01:29 I do.

1:01:30 But I also don't want to pull punches.

1:01:31 And so like, you know, you asked me about Chuck Schumer,

1:01:34 like like I I want to be honest about what I view

1:01:36 as like why I I like sometimes worry we don't have the right leadership,

1:01:40 but I also don't want to be another person um that is

1:01:44 like kind of part of a circular firing squad all the time.

1:01:48 Like you know, when is the right time for infighting?

1:01:50 When is the right time for criticis criticism internally?

1:01:54 Uh versus when do we have to all pull together?

1:01:56 like I want to like how do you think about telling the telling the hardest

1:02:01 of hard truths to your friends like and what is the best way to do that?

1:02:04 Um like I I think about that in terms of what it means to be uh

1:02:08 uh productive and and so so like

1:02:11 that that to me is I think the day-to-day challenge.

1:02:14 Um and I and and the truth is I don't think there's like easy answers to it.

1:02:17 I think you got to feel your way through it.

1:02:20 Um because the the goal I think is to have a welcoming,

1:02:24 honest, open conversation, but also one that doesn't view

1:02:29 that that that just that wants to be helpful, right?

1:02:32 And like those things honest,

1:02:34 they're not always and in fact they're most often not in tension,

1:02:38 but occasionally they are.

1:02:39 And you have to like figure that out, you know,

1:02:41 like how to be authentic without just being a being a scold or a busy body

1:02:45 or somebody that's constantly kind of in the armchair

1:02:47 uh like kind of doing the quarterbacking, you know?

1:02:50 Yeah.

1:02:50 Sean, thank you so much for the time, man.

1:02:52 Good to talk to you.

1:02:52 That was great.

1:02:53 And that, dear listener, is the end of today's podcast.

1:02:56 Thank you for watching or listening.

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1:03:08 Stay safe out there.

1:03:09 Stay sane out there.