Wendover Productions Sam Denby Interview at the Oxford Union

0:04 Hello everyone.

0:06 Uh, hope you're all doing well.

0:07 Thank you for coming.

0:08 Um, pleased to welcome the one and only Sam

0:11 Dembi of Have Interesting Window Productions and Jetlag the Game.

0:15 Let's bring our hands together.

0:17 [applause] [applause] How are you doing today, Sam?

0:33 Good.

0:33 This is definitely the nicest room I feel like I've ever talked in.

0:36 I feel like you'll probably get that a lot, but you know, gorgeous.

0:40 Anytime I normally talk, it's in like a conference.

0:42 It's like in a in a in like a convention center.

0:47 Gotcha.

0:47 Kind of the the polar opposite of this, but yeah.

0:51 Well, as you can see by some of the hats,

0:52 we've got some big Chat Lag fans here, right?

0:55 Uh and uh we have a very active society here in Oxford,

0:58 I've heard.

0:59 Uh and we've been locked in a very intense debate uh over the proper formatting

1:04 of our name and figured who better to ask than the founder of Jetlag himself.

1:10 Uhhuh.

1:09 So should it be Jetlag Oxford or Jetlag the Oxford?

1:13 I think the Oxford.

1:14 The Oxford it is.

1:16 Yeah.

1:16 It doesn't really make full sense, but like you know I don't I don't care

1:21 that I think that that that it it fits it better.

1:24 I like it.

1:25 Jet live the Oxford.

1:26 It is.

1:26 Take notes.

1:29 Okay.

1:29 So, moving into the the main prepared questions.

1:31 September marks 11 years since you

1:33 released your first video on Wendover Productions.

1:36 And I don't think it's special to say you've come a very long way since then.

1:39 Obviously, the video process is a lot more complex than it was now.

1:42 I mean, you've got a whole team around you.

1:44 Uh, it's pretty easy to spot the differences,

1:46 and I'm sure you've talked about this at length,

1:48 but what I'm curious about is what isn't different?

1:51 What are you doing the same now that you were still doing in September of 2015?

1:58 Well, I mean the the the main channel, well,

2:03 it's no I mean, in some ways it's no longer the main channel,

2:05 but the Wendover, you know, which our entire company is called,

2:08 but also the main channel or the first channel.

2:11 Um, I've just been making a video every two weeks on that for, I guess,

2:15 close to 11 years now, which is the entirety of my adult life.

2:20 Um, so in some ways like that that uh has just

2:26 like become reality where I'm just always every two weeks um you

2:31 know writing about some new subject and as you can imagine there's

2:36 only so many things to talk about but um somehow find more.

2:40 Um it's it's uh wait the question about what hasn't changed man

2:45 I just I keep thinking of all the things that have changed.

2:48 Um, I mean I what also hasn't changed in some ways

2:53 is I I remember someone was I think Brian my my friend

2:57 SL real engineering if anyone he's been on the season

3:00 he's been on the show actually so you probably know Brian

3:02 right does everyone know Brian he was just tweeting about I

3:05 realize you probably know Brian if you watch the [laughter] show

3:07 um like he was tweeting about the fact that uh that uh

3:11 the educational space of YouTube has remained surprisingly like static Um,

3:19 not necessarily in a bad way, but like you you see in like Hank Green and Vsauce

3:24 and Veritasium and you know they're they're making stuff in different ways,

3:27 but they're still making stuff.

3:29 So, actually, I guess my answer to round out

3:31 to I didn't think I was going this way, but now now I'll make it seem like I am.

3:34 But, um, is um the fact that I'm still making it is kind of surprising to me.

3:40 like the the fact that I'm still um a YouTuber in as part of my many jobs

3:46 is in itself I think surprising to me because

3:50 uh there were times when I thought this was going to be like a two or three

3:53 year job not necessarily because I didn't want it

3:55 to be a longerterm thing but just because like

3:58 I I wouldn't believe that the economics would sustain it.

4:02 Gotcha.

4:02 You made a quip about uh not always knowing what you're going to do

4:06 next for window and that's one of the things I had written down.

4:08 How do you come up with topics for it?

4:09 I know some of them are personal event,

4:11 curtain events, some of personal interest.

4:14 Yeah, honestly, this is uh this is it's a good question.

4:17 It's one that I get a lot, but it's one that I never have a good

4:19 answer to because it's just simply like I every

4:23 single time it's like I can't there's no way

4:26 I'm going to come up with a new one.

4:27 And then and then it's it's truly it's truly shower thoughts.

4:31 It's truly like I'll hear something from the radio on the radio.

4:35 I listen to a lot of NPR.

4:36 NPR is awesome uh in the US.

4:39 Um, and uh, you know, I'll hear something on the radio that has me

4:42 something about something that goes to the other thing.

4:44 I have no system.

4:45 I wish I had a system.

4:46 It would make my job a lot easier because it's truly like I

4:49 will sometimes sit down at my desk because it's getting down to time where

4:53 I have to decide and like try to force myself um to come

4:57 up with something new to talk about and it just doesn't work that way.

5:00 I wish it did because it means that of sometimes I put

5:03 myself in a huge crunch uh to write something because I started late.

5:07 um but it doesn't um so often times it's like something's going on in the world

5:12 that is worth explaining and even if it's

5:15 not necessarily like um you know the direct

5:19 thing that's going on that's worth explaining

5:20 there's some background context worth explaining to it

5:23 like for example recently worth knowing about global

5:26 oil logistics because that's been relevant I guess

5:29 yeah I suppose it has uh as for half as interesting uh

5:33 if my understanding is correct who started off as DWL on Wendover Yeah.

5:38 Um, so other than having the freedom to make these short

5:42 form videos on stuff not on the Wikipedia unusual articles list,

5:45 what made you decide to take TWWL off

5:48 of Windover and turn it into its own thing?

5:51 Well, um, yeah.

5:52 Yeah.

5:52 So, so TWWL as you referenced that that was um

5:55 that was our basically there's this great Wikipedia list that is

6:00 literally it's called Wikipedia unusual articles and it's just a list

6:03 of links to articles and a lot of them are interesting.

6:07 So sometime very very early in making videos on Wendover

6:12 I was like okay what if we made a series where

6:14 we just like made a video sort of covering each

6:15 of these topics and it went really well so spun it off.

6:19 Um, and a lot of the a lot of the motivation

6:22 was actually to build a team because I wanted

6:27 to grow more from just becoming like an independent YouTuber

6:31 into um starting to form like a bit of a company.

6:35 Mostly because a lot of the reason was because there's a lot

6:39 of parts of the video making process that I am not good at.

6:41 For example, post-production, the entirety of it.

6:44 Um, I my brain just does not mesh with editing software.

6:48 um especially motion graphic like Adobe After Effects and stuff like that.

6:53 So from the very get-go that was like I just

6:55 wanted to get rid of that responsibility because I hated it.

6:58 That meant I had to hire people.

6:59 To hire people I needed to have more revenue.

7:02 Uh to make get more revenue I needed to make more

7:05 videos and to make more videos I needed to hire a team.

7:07 So it kind of became a virtuous cycle

7:09 or vicious cycle depending on your view of it.

7:12 Um, so yeah, and now we're what 560 videos later,

7:16 which is just on half as interesting, which is insane.

7:20 Um, the fact that we've released at least a video a week.

7:23 There was a period when we did 1.5 videos a week

7:25 by doing one week with one, one week with two.

7:27 Um, and that is truly an over like,

7:30 you know, they're like decently involved to make.

7:33 The fact that we've made 560ome of them is to me kind of inconceivable.

7:39 Do you miss writing them?

7:40 I know you still do a couple, but mostly Ben, Adam, and Amy,

7:44 the outside correspondent turned jetlag guest star

7:47 have uh picked up most of those.

7:49 I So I I there's an interesting experiment in regards to this question recently.

7:54 I until recently did not write a single

7:56 half interesting script for like three or four years.

8:00 But um the primary writers are Ben, who you know from Jetlag probably,

8:05 and Amy, who you might also know from Jetlag.

8:07 will get to know her a lot more on Jetlag soon because she's

8:10 the guest on our next season um uh that's coming out soon from the US.

8:15 Um so their primary responsibilities or not

8:17 necessarily their primary responsibilities are writing this channel.

8:20 Um, but both of them have gotten a lot better at their jobs

8:24 and gotten a lot more responsibility and they're starting to um,

8:28 you know, do more and more and more.

8:30 Um, you know, especially Amy is starting to she's

8:32 like showrunning a lot a lot of our Nebula

8:34 originals which basically meant that they don't have

8:36 time to write half as interesting as much anymore.

8:39 Uh, which is a problem that I am very happy with, but also I created.

8:43 So that means that I have subbed

8:44 in and uh more often recently and written scripts.

8:48 Um and I actually really like writing them.

8:52 They're so much fun because you can be a little

8:54 bit unhinged and um and it's a great like for me,

9:00 you know, I I still write windowover scripts which is much more time inensive.

9:04 you know, it's it's probably about half of my working time

9:09 goes to writing those scripts um across a two week cycle.

9:13 So, they're very involved.

9:14 Whereas half is interesting, I'll write those in like a day,

9:16 a day and a half, just learning something

9:19 or just writing about something I already know.

9:21 It's it feels so effortless in comparison.

9:23 So, yeah, they're a lot of fun.

9:25 As a bit of a follow-up, how does the writers room for how Interesting work?

9:27 you guys just like sit around a table and spitball ideas for a few hours or is

9:30 it just kind of individual I want to do this, I wanted to do that independently.

9:35 Um, so what I like about that compared to Wendover, um,

9:40 is that I don't have to come up with the topics usually,

9:43 um, because it's Ben and Adam's responsibility.

9:45 They, uh, we we get on calls every couple

9:49 weeks and basically plan out future videos and they

9:52 just come and give ideas and we get

9:54 into arguments about why they will or will not work.

9:56 Um because I think we the way that it works with like you know in some ways

10:03 we don't have a boss in some ways we do and the boss is the YouTube algorithm.

10:07 Um because if we don't listen to our boss the algorithm

10:11 we don't make money and uh therefore we can't make videos anymore.

10:15 So we have to appease the algorithm.

10:18 And I think for us and many YouTubers,

10:21 what that means is we have about a 70% accurate view on how the algorithm works.

10:28 We are mostly right.

10:30 We are also often wrong.

10:32 Um because nobody truly knows even in fact the people

10:37 who run the algorithm at YouTube do not know because it

10:40 uses um you know machine learning and stuff like that to sort

10:43 of tweak as at least what they've explained to me.

10:45 So no one knows fully how the algorithm works

10:48 and what will appease it and what will not.

10:51 Um so we go around and have arguments about do

10:53 we think that this topic will appease the algorithm or not.

10:56 And um and again because because we're mostly

10:59 but almost certainly not even close to entirely right.

11:02 Uh these will go in circles and circles

11:04 until usually hopefully we reach some sort of consensus.

11:09 And then my worst nightmare is when it

11:11 gets to the point where they're just like,

11:13 "You got to decide because you're in charge." And I don't like that.

11:16 Uh because then it's all down to me if I'm right or not.

11:19 Um uh but yeah, we do that and then it's pretty much an individ

11:23 individual writing process with maybe some small notes at the end from me.

11:27 Gotcha.

11:27 Segueing over to chat lag,

11:28 which I think is what drew a lot of people to your content.

11:32 It's got its staple formats, right?

11:33 Tag, hideand-seek.

11:34 I've played hide-and-seek a couple times.

11:36 Great fun.

11:37 uh could ask a million season uh questions about those seasons,

11:40 but I'm a bit more curious about the other seasons.

11:42 Stuff like Rail Rush, Shenan Showdown, Arctic Escape, now the Taiwan season.

11:46 What does the process of coming up with those and designing the game

11:50 look like compared to something that's pretty

11:52 easy to recreate like Tag or Hide-and-seek?

11:54 Yeah, it's um a ton harder.

11:57 Like it's really nice when we do a repeat format

11:59 for us because we don't have to design a new game

12:02 and designing a new game is very stressful and very

12:05 time inensive because um it can go right and it can

12:08 go wrong and I think it's truly the kind of thing

12:12 where the the quality and effort of the work that we

12:17 put into it leads to that success or failure which

12:20 sucks when you have to work hard to do good things.

12:22 I hate that.

12:23 Um uh so uh so actually uh we just got

12:29 this question in the small group thing that we did before this.

12:32 So so I'll I'll rehash some of that to give an idea of like the timeline.

12:36 Um we started designing the season that is releasing now.

12:41 Thai the Taiwan rail rush.

12:44 We started designing that all the way back in August of 2025.

12:49 uh kind of preliminary.

12:52 I think actually uniquely that time like the first thing

12:54 we decide on is we want to go to Taiwan.

12:56 We were learning about it.

12:57 It looks so cool.

12:58 It was really cool.

12:59 Um but it has a bit of a unique map

13:02 of public transit and trains basically in that it's small,

13:08 you know, it's not a big island and it's a very

13:11 circular network because there's big old mountains in the middle.

13:14 Um, fun fact, tallest peak in Taiwan,

13:17 higher than the tallest peak in Japan, despite

13:19 Yeah, you you know Mount Fuji, right?

13:21 You don't know the tallest mountain in Taiwan.

13:23 Or maybe you do, but anyone in the audience know it?

13:26 Um, wow.

13:26 Nobody.

13:27 Okay.

13:27 Um, I forget its name, too.

13:30 But it looks cool and I want to climb it.

13:32 Um, but that's why there's no trains in the middle

13:34 is like there's very little population in the middle.

13:37 Um and that network is really hard for us because that means

13:39 it's it's essentially you know for our purposes kind of linear like

13:43 you can more or less go left or you know go down

13:46 go up or you know in our context go left or right.

13:49 Um so doesn't have the kind of optionality

13:52 that we normally um look for um because you know

13:56 a decision of do we go that way or do we go that way is not that interesting.

13:59 So, we had to sort of create a game

14:03 that sort of um took advantage of the restricted geography.

14:08 Um, and I won't go into detail about the all the tiny intricacies of the game

14:12 because there would go on forever and you

14:14 can listen to like podcast episodes about that.

14:16 Um, but that took a lot of time to basically

14:18 figure out a format that we thought could work there.

14:20 Um, and like one of the things that we'll often notice

14:23 in game design is that actually I think Ben just tweeted about this.

14:26 Um, we keep reinventing games that we realize don't work.

14:31 For example, [snorts] like we we keep like you know how

14:33 everything evolves into like I I don't know the exact thing here,

14:36 but like in evolution everything evolves into a crab uh or lobster.

14:40 There's some sort of scientific principle that you think about that.

14:42 No, no, I study history.

14:44 Um, look it up.

14:45 Uh, I think I'm somewhat right.

14:47 Anyway, we keep designing games that are snake, which looking back on Snake,

14:52 it was the format that we were sort of least happy with in retrospect.

14:54 We think we there were some flaws with it.

14:56 There was some stuff that we did wrong in game design.

14:58 But there's like for some reason there's like

15:01 a reason why in the game design process we keep

15:04 landing on similar formats that don't work because I

15:07 think there's there's elements of it that sound interesting

15:10 but aren't when you put them into practice.

15:13 Um and you know we often sort of end up in similar sort of rabbit holes

15:18 of ideas that we've discussed before that but for some

15:21 reason we just don't think fully work.

15:23 So that takes some time.

15:24 We work our way through our rabbit holes and then we

15:25 finally land on more or less the broad shape of a concept.

15:29 Um, and at a certain point, I mean, we often call as our we often refer to it

15:35 as like our go no-go time with a concept.

15:38 Like usually we're discussing we have like short

15:40 list of a couple concepts, two or three,

15:42 and we usually have a front runner and we have to decide are

15:46 we going to like do the sort of in-depth game design for this?

15:50 Because there's actually from our perspective a huge

15:52 difference between like the broadstrokes game design

15:55 or we're just talking about like a a a broad idea like you know we're going

16:01 to play hide-and-seek but on a the board

16:03 of a country and actually putting together

16:05 the rule set with the right incentives and everything

16:08 to make things balanced and make them work.

16:11 Um so yeah eventually we sometimes decide yes we're going to go through this.

16:16 Sometimes we decide no, we don't have enough confidence that, you know,

16:19 we're going to come out the other end with something that's going to work.

16:21 So, we spend a little more time on the broadstroke stuff.

16:23 But once we're sort of in the detailed game design,

16:25 that's all about play testing.

16:27 That's all about um coming up with like the you know,

16:32 it's always like the first 95% of it is

16:34 easy and the last 5% is the difficult bit.

16:36 the last 5% of rules to make sure

16:38 that players truly acting in their individual best interests

16:44 will respond to what the other team again

16:47 truly doing the best thing in their own interests.

16:49 Um will they respond in a way that will

16:52 make the overall game one function and two be entertaining?

16:56 Um, and I think that is the hardest problem to solve because we really

17:02 believe in like we are not like we are players once we're on camera.

17:07 We are not influencing things to make it work the way that we want it to work

17:12 because you know I think as soon as the audience

17:15 thinks that we're doing that it becomes uninteresting.

17:18 So getting to that point takes a lot of time.

17:21 we end up with, you know, it's often a series of compromises, you know,

17:25 when we realize like in order to make it work in this way,

17:29 we need to get rid of some

17:32 principle that we thought would be really interesting.

17:34 So, we go through that, we get to play testing,

17:36 we just do that sort of like virtually using spreadsheets,

17:39 Google um timets, etc.

17:42 Uh then we go film the thing.

17:44 Um and then it's post.

17:46 And post is a huge part of the process,

17:48 but not one that's honestly that interesting to talk

17:50 about because it's uh it it's rather well,

17:54 it's not straightforward, but I think it's editing,

17:57 it's motion graphics, it's sound, it's all that.

17:59 Um, yeah.

18:01 So, a lot of folks, myself included,

18:03 were really excited to see the former guest winners,

18:05 uh, spoilers for those who haven't watched all

18:07 16 and a half seasons of Jetwag yet.

18:09 Uh, Toby, Michelle, and Brian back for TAG Allstars.

18:13 Are there any plans to bring back

18:14 the guests who didn't end up winning their seasons?

18:16 Joseph, Scotty, Tom Scott for a second

18:18 chances season or something along those lines.

18:21 Um, I would never say no, but I also would never say yes.

18:26 I see.

18:28 Uh, so [laughter]

18:30 possible deniability.

18:31 And I I cannot give exclusive spoilers.

18:34 Look, if there weren't cameras here, I would tell y'all cuz I would trust y'all.

18:37 But there are cameras.

18:38 I I can't give I can't give everyone spoilers.

18:41 Worth a try.

18:42 Uh, have you learned anything from filming and producing jet life

18:45 that you've been able to apply to Wendover or Half as Interesting?

18:49 Um, I think the biggest one some of the biggest category is by a nature of its

18:54 scale jet lag has required us to get

18:57 a lot better about our sort of like internal processes.

19:02 And I know you all came here to talk

19:05 hear me talk about is workflows, [laughter] right?

19:08 We love workflows.

19:10 um workflows and things like we love notion, we love Slack,

19:14 we love timekeeping software, all sorts of stuff like that.

19:18 Um no, but but this is this is genuinely a big thing.

19:22 We, you know, there's about 20 to 25 people who work

19:27 on a given season of Jetlag between all the different post-production people,

19:31 um all the all our internal staff, everyone.

19:34 So, that's a lot of people to coordinate.

19:36 Some of whom are effectively full-time.

19:39 Well, some are definitely full-time, some are close to full-time,

19:42 and some are like, you know, a couple hours of, you know,

19:46 composing work or something like that or graphic design or all that.

19:48 So, coordinating that is a big uh challenge.

19:52 Luckily, I don't have to deal with a lot of that myself because

19:55 at least the post-production is uh coordinated

19:58 by some of our great post-production supervisors.

20:01 Um but what that's really shown is like I think the value of doing that which

20:07 I was pretty reluctant to because I

20:08 don't like following rules and processes and workflows.

20:11 Um but in the long run it is did prove to be worthwhile also show

20:16 the value of um you know forward planning uh you know often times I think um

20:24 with other channels and kind of with everything

20:26 we're we're kind of very um bogged down in the moment and therefore it's hard

20:31 to make time for sort of long-term planning.

20:33 Um but this is a channel where it's necessary.

20:36 Um so it's proven the value of that.

20:38 So, in some ways, it's really just made us more of a company

20:42 rather than just like a collection of creatives putting stuff together.

20:47 Um, so that is the boring but truthful answer.

20:51 Speaking of companies, we've all heard the Nebula ad read.

20:54 Yes.

20:54 Creator platform post videos you can't otherwise

20:56 post on YouTube because of the algorithm.

20:57 It gives you better revenue.

20:59 What I'm more curious about is what's not in the ad read.

21:02 The kind of behind the scenes of how Nebula came to be,

21:04 what you think is futurist.

21:06 Speaking of which, this reminds me I

21:07 need to upgrade my subscription to Lifetime.

21:09 I've been paying annual since tag season 3 and my bank account hates me for it,

21:14 right?

21:14 Um, yeah.

21:16 So, the company came together.

21:18 Um, it was originally just sort of a talent management agency.

21:24 Um I my involvement started even before that when I

21:30 I was one of the very first clients of um

21:34 of of Dave who went on to sort of found

21:36 the company and form it um into a bigger thing.

21:39 So sort of talent management agency and what

21:41 that basically meant was they booked sponsorships.

21:43 They did um a couple of other sort of asserted services for um creators

21:49 kind of not like there's honestly a bunch of them, bunch of bad ones,

21:52 but um and eventually I guess the difference between Nebula

21:57 and a lot of other ones is that it grew

21:59 much more so out of word of mouth and at least

22:02 originally it sort of specialized in the educational genre.

22:06 Um, so it meant that like all the clients or not all the clients

22:09 but a lot of the clients sort of knew each knew each other socially.

22:13 Um, and I think what that meant was that we

22:18 were much more prepared for sort of collective action.

22:22 And in this case the collective action was we got together

22:24 and thought it'd be cool to start our own streaming service.

22:28 Um because um we there are certain elements of YouTube that uh are frustrating

22:36 sometimes and actually it's a lot of it is there there's like policy stuff.

22:41 You know I think a lot of people get frustrated about um

22:44 YouTube creator policies and how that's sometimes applied unfairly and all that.

22:49 That is undoubtedly frustrating.

22:51 I think I take a slightly more sympathetic view to it than normal than

22:55 most people just because it is so

22:56 hard running the world's largest streaming service,

22:58 YouTube, like having policies that can moderate, you know,

23:02 whatever millions of hours of content are uploaded daily.

23:06 So, I think that they on balance do a pretty good job.

23:09 So, it's less so like that side of things,

23:10 but more so the adup supported business model

23:14 of video I think has some quite perverse incentives.

23:17 Um really it's it's there's no way around

23:21 the fact that it just is chasing clicks.

23:23 It's like you know the the ad revenue comes

23:27 in pretty immediately to when someone watches a video.

23:32 So the the incentives are just first and foremost get someone to click.

23:37 You know, YouTube, I think,

23:38 has done some successful interventions about this through

23:40 really rewarding watch time and retention and satisfaction,

23:43 all that, but at the end of the day,

23:45 the balance is skewed towards getting the click.

23:48 And what that means is you get clickbait,

23:50 you get um optimized length of videos, you know,

23:53 like 15 to 20 minutes is just what it turns out is

23:56 the length of video that um the average viewer comes onto YouTube for.

24:01 um and therefore it tends to be most sort

24:04 of effective for uh retention and watch time and all that.

24:08 So I I think through all the systems that the algorithm has,

24:13 it really incentivizes a certain type of video.

24:16 Um you know, I think it it's sort

24:18 of kind of like the evolution discussion we had.

24:20 It's like it it leads to an evolution towards

24:23 a a fairly narrow set of types of video.

24:26 Um and obviously there's there's plenty of diversity within that.

24:29 And I think that's a lot of what makes YouTube good.

24:31 But what it does not incentivize strongly is investing

24:35 in production quality because um people are not really like

24:42 the difference maker for audiences these days is not kind

24:46 of the finetuning of production quality when you're chasing clicks.

24:52 It's, you know, people will click on a video

24:55 based on the concept and people will generally stick around based on the concept

24:58 and to a certain extent the execution on the concept,

25:01 but more so it's the narrative execution of the concept more

25:03 so than like the visual execution or the technical prowess of it.

25:07 Um, so what it means is like you don't tend to get

25:09 a lot of very high production value stuff because of the business model.

25:14 Um, and it does not optimize for long-term satisfaction.

25:18 So the idea with Nebula is that with a paywalled system, you know,

25:24 our incentives are we want to keep

25:26 our subscribers around because they're paying,

25:28 you know, 250 a month, three a month, or maybe they're a lifetime subscriber,

25:32 but um we want to keep those people around because we're making revenue based

25:36 on the length of time that we keep giving them stuff that they want to watch.

25:40 So, you know, I think there are some, you know, um, you know,

25:44 the company has now been around for what, seven years or so.

25:48 Um, but I I think there's also a pretty long

25:51 road map ahead to sort of achieve the the full ambitions.

25:55 Um, but I think through like the originals that we do now,

25:57 through the original content we do now,

25:59 and through especially sort of our long-term

26:01 ambitions with that, it's really around uh creating

26:05 that style of slightly higher production value

26:09 and budget content that will really keep people around.

26:13 And you know, I think what we found is that the business model works um but we

26:19 did not want to take significant investment because

26:21 we wanted to maintain control of the company.

26:23 So that means that the growth is fairly incremental and it has had, you know,

26:27 a really good long-term growth trend that has

26:29 allowed for more and more exclusive content.

26:31 Um, but it is incremental growth that is accumulating through time

26:33 and I think has gotten to a very interesting place recently.

26:36 Um, but I think there's a long way that it will go.

26:39 Got one more question before we move on to the audience questions.

26:42 Uh, there's been a lot of discussion lately over private equity firms by uh,

26:46 major YouTube channels.

26:48 Veritassium, which you mentioned earlier, Mentor Pilot,

26:50 Matt Pat's theory channels, Fern, etc.

26:52 As a creator, how do you feel about this new trend?

26:55 And do the ethos of all this play a role in what you

26:57 and the other creators on Nebula are trying to accomplish with the platform?

27:00 Yeah.

27:01 Um, I thought you would ask this question,

27:04 but I also didn't think through an answer.

27:06 Um, it's [laughter] it's a very interesting trend because, okay,

27:13 I think of a collection of somewhat may

27:16 maybe I'll find a way to connect these thoughts.

27:18 When I first heard about this business model,

27:20 I guess I guess for for anyone who's not super familiar,

27:23 basically um more and more YouTube channels are being purchased either outright

27:28 or a stake in them are being

27:30 purchased by private equitybacked um startups basically.

27:35 I mean there sometimes they're directly private equity firms,

27:38 sometimes it's companies that are creating a package

27:41 of um package of channels uh and then

27:46 these sort of startups are owned by private

27:48 equity firms or invested in by private equity firms.

27:50 Um when I first heard about this, I thought

27:54 that there was no way this business model would

27:56 survive long term because how it was originally often

28:00 often positioned to creators was as an exit strategy.

28:03 sell your YouTube channel,

28:05 we will run it and um and you can go right off into the sunset,

28:11 have a lot of money and whatever.

28:14 That's a very compelling sell because there's not really prior

28:18 to this, people didn't really like value their YouTube channels as businesses.

28:22 So, there wasn't really like a off-ramp.

28:26 It was just like you did this until you stopped and therefore there like

28:30 all of all of the value that you created just went up into thin air.

28:34 So like for most people getting any money to stop was

28:38 pretty compelling because I think especially there's a lot of YouTubers who

28:41 work in a very unsustainable way because they perceive it as something

28:45 that they're going to do for like five years of hustle.

28:48 you know, I'm young, I'm going to hustle, I'm making good money now,

28:51 then I'm going to stop, get work life balance,

28:54 move on to some other career, etc.

28:55 So the so the very idea of getting any money was compelling.

28:59 So, a lot of creators took those deals.

29:00 Um, and I believe there were a lot of failures um with some

29:05 of these early investments basically because um it is really finicky to run uh

29:13 a YouTube channel um because usually it's a very like a creator has

29:19 a very nuanced understanding I think of um and look I'm biased in this.

29:26 I think of what their audience wants.

29:28 And you know, I know through through sort of building my team that, you know,

29:34 I have a I have I think a very smart team of people working at my company.

29:38 And it took that team a long time to really understand

29:42 the nuances of what appealed to the audience and what didn't.

29:48 um you know like it I you know it took in some cases years I think

29:53 to get to like a high hit rate

29:56 with topic creation and writing and everything like that.

29:58 So to think that like an outside company can come in immediately

30:02 build you know sort of replace the team and have success.

30:07 I didn't see any way in which that would work.

30:09 In a lot of cases it's not.

30:11 So, from what I know more recently, what this has shifted to is,

30:16 um, sales with some form of golden handcuffs.

30:20 Um, you know, for example, uh, I I'm not super up to date,

30:24 but I know one of the highprofile ones was the sale of Veritassium,

30:27 one of the largest, um, educational channels on YouTube.

30:31 Um, how that worked was that, uh,

30:34 the the founder of the channel stayed around in a limited capacity through time.

30:40 I believe he sort of worked fewer and fewer hours.

30:44 Um, and I believe he might not be that involved anymore.

30:47 I don't know for sure, but um,

30:51 there was essentially it was a it was a structured off-ramp.

30:54 Um, and it actually seemed quite successful.

30:59 Um, but largely because I think that the I

31:05 guess the the the company that ran that deal,

31:08 Electrify, um, from what I've seen has been

31:12 one of the smarter ones in the space.

31:14 Um, at least in terms of their success.

31:17 Um, and they built a team of people that were had pretty

31:24 good credentials and were good writers and worked with Derek and um,

31:27 you know, put together a genuine business.

31:30 So that's to say they were able to do it.

31:32 I don't think that they are um

31:36 the the the the channel numbers from don't necessarily like like

31:41 the channel has changed basically cuz I think

31:43 as a channel that in the past would do limited

31:46 number of videos with really high view counts

31:49 and it shifted one to one that does more high

31:52 frequency videos that might have lower view counts

31:54 but the frequency is probably what supports the business model.

31:58 Um what I'll say about I guess okay the the industry

32:02 at large necess not necessarily commenting on Veritassium or Electrify

32:07 is that what a lot of these firms I believe

32:10 have access to is blue chip sponsors um on YouTube

32:16 um basically traditional like the kind of sponsors the kind

32:20 of advertisers that you would see on TV um or working

32:24 through traditional advertising um agencies they pay a significant amount

32:30 more than the sponsors that you see more typically on YouTube,

32:34 you know, like website builders or um you know,

32:38 Audible or uh Nebula or uh stuff like that.

32:43 So, you know, because they're often

32:46 doing awareness campaigns rather than conversion campaigns.

32:48 Most of YouTube is conversion campaigns

32:50 where they're tracking it based on click-through.

32:53 They're tracking how many people click through, how many people subscribe,

32:55 and they're looking for direct return on investment.

32:57 Blue chip sponsors, they're often doing awareness campaigns where, you know,

33:01 which is more more similar to what you see on TV where like

33:04 they're just trying to get brand awareness

33:06 about Tide or American Express or whatever.

33:09 Um, and I think in a lot of cases,

33:12 they're they're sort of evaluating campaigns at first

33:16 based on TV numbers or based on print media.

33:20 um where as it's not as hard to get a million

33:26 eyeballs onto something as you on YouTube as it is on broadcast.

33:30 So they come in and they see wow this is a lot cheaper.

33:33 So they'll pay a lot for these spots but the the they'll pay a lot

33:39 on YouTube terms for these spots but a little from what they're used to.

33:42 So what that basically means is for a while they're able to access really

33:47 highv value sponsorships through the connections

33:49 of these private equity firms who get to marketing,

33:52 you know, marketing agencies and stuff like that.

33:54 Um, and I think this can prop up the business model for a while,

33:59 but eventually the numbers catch up and the numbers,

34:02 you know, the the the an eyeball on YouTube

34:06 is not worth the same as an eyeball on TV.

34:08 Like it just it does not convert the same for an advertiser.

34:12 So the numbers catch up and the um the the sponsors

34:17 dry up because they're not seeing performance and the business model fails.

34:21 So I think that that is something that likely

34:23 has been happening to a lot of these investments

34:26 um especially as it's been a pretty weak

34:28 ad market um uh on YouTube in recent years.

34:32 Um and therefore I don't see

34:34 that business model having long-term sustainability.

34:38 Um in terms of the creators, I think this my last thought is on the creators.

34:41 Um, I find it hard to, well, I I I actually have not followed this that closely,

34:50 so I don't really know what public um,

34:54 sentiments have been about the creators who have taken these deals.

34:56 Um, I think that for creators who want to step off,

35:01 like if you put themselves in their in their shoes,

35:05 it's like I mean I I've I get emails about these offers almost every single day.

35:11 I know the numbers.

35:12 They're really compelling.

35:13 Like it can be not necessarily like retire now money,

35:18 but like pretty life-changing amounts of money.

35:20 You know, I think it's hard to ask a creator

35:22 not to take that when it's an offer just on principle.

35:26 Um, even if it does feel icky to sort

35:32 of sell your creative work to private equity,

35:34 like I don't think anyone is excited about doing that, but you know,

35:38 I think it's the kind of thing where there's sort of a dollar, you know,

35:43 there's a there's a dollar price on most

35:45 people's morality um for these sort of things.

35:48 So, I don't necessarily blame the creators as long as they're going

35:52 about it in a honest way and making sure that, you know,

35:57 they're rewarding their teams that have built

36:00 um the channels with them and making

36:01 sure that they're setting their team up for long-term success and all that.

36:05 Um I have gotten quite a few of these offers.

36:09 They have been compelling,

36:10 not something that I've been interested in because I actually like my job.

36:14 And uh the key for me uh has been actually making a sustainable job,

36:18 one that like I can do sort of perpetually.

36:20 Gotcha.

36:21 Well, we'll open the floor to audience questions.

36:24 Don't be shy.

36:25 Raise your hands.

36:25 Uh we'll go with the guy in the red.

36:28 An iron, president of Jetlag Oxford.

36:30 Jetlag the Oxford.

36:32 Sorry.

36:33 Can't believe I got it wrong.

36:37 Yes.

36:37 An iron.

36:40 Stand up so we can see you.

36:43 You talked a bit about the idea generation stage of uh Jeba and how

36:47 life to adapt to the scale of the show of like entire country.

36:50 Do you find there are many ideas that would you have to reject because they

36:54 wouldn't work on this full season scale

36:56 but perhaps could work on smaller today's scale?

37:01 Um that's not something that has come up that much.

37:04 Um yeah.

37:07 Um, normally, yeah, I think normally because we're

37:12 just more used to working at the larger scale.

37:15 It's actually the inverse I think that has come up more often where, you know,

37:18 like we've tried to come up with formats that could be more compatible with um,

37:23 you know, because we know that most people who are playing this game themselves,

37:26 like they don't have time to, you know, do a Europewide game over 5 days.

37:30 So more often we've tried to come up with like

37:32 what would be the next thing like hideand-seek where

37:35 we can play the same game that others could

37:38 play and you know could sell a home game version.

37:41 Um and that's been challenging.

37:43 It's really just compatibility like how do you make

37:45 a game that can work everywhere or at least almost everywhere.

37:49 Um it's really challenging because everywhere works differently.

37:54 Um, and hideand-seek, you know, it works pretty well,

37:58 but it certainly has its like it's not the kind of game that you would expect

38:02 a major board game manufacturer to basically make because

38:05 it requires a little bit more, you know, diyess.

38:08 Um, so we've we've certainly tried to come

38:14 up with that kind of thing more often.

38:15 We've especially like we would love to make one that is actually

38:18 even more easy to play out of the box um than even hide-and-seek.

38:24 Um but it's not to say it's impossible, but but yeah,

38:28 the the city scale has been traditionally more challenging.

38:32 I've been told we unfortunately only have time for one more question.

38:34 So, I'm going to go with the guy that just

38:36 raised his hand in the Seahawk shirt or sweater.

38:40 Ah, the microphone.

38:40 Good idea.

38:41 I [snorts] have one very brief question which is brief but very important.

38:43 Sam, are we back?

38:45 So back.

38:45 [laughter] We are so back.

38:46 Thank you.

38:47 My question is about hats and not just

38:48 these wonderful hats you can buy at store.nebler.tv.

38:50 Uh it's about all the many hats that you

38:52 sort of theoretically wear between Nebula, Jetlag, Hi,

38:55 Wendover, and even things exclusively on Nebula such

38:58 as Scab and the um the Getaway is it?

39:00 Um how do you choose to invest your time essentially?

39:03 What projects are the ones what about project will make you

39:07 choose to actually go forward with it?

39:09 talked a bit about how the workflows work,

39:10 but I'm more interested in sort of creative ideational process as to how you

39:14 choose what you do um alongside also

39:16 juggling all of those things you already do, if that makes sense.

39:19 Thank you.

39:20 Uh I mean, the long-term trajectory of my job has

39:22 been basically moving earlier and earlier sort of into the like,

39:27 you know, we're sort of like I think

39:30 video making is really just kind of manufacturing,

39:32 but it's creative creative mass manufacturing basically.

39:35 And so if you think of it as assembly

39:37 line like I've moved earlier like my average responsibility

39:40 has moved earlier and earlier into that assembly line

39:43 because at first I did everything then I offloaded post-production.

39:47 Um and more recently like you know more so I'm not

39:52 necessarily the one doing all the scripts or all the production phase.

39:56 Um and pre-production you know pre-production is the phase where

40:02 you like kind of put together the pieces for the project.

40:04 Um that is the phase that I'm is really most of my job right now because every

40:10 other phase is it's been easy enough to find

40:14 people who are very talented at doing that phase.

40:17 Um and you can just sort of hand off

40:19 a project to people to sort of take it forward.

40:22 Um so that's meant that like you know now there are other people who are right.

40:28 There are even sometimes cases where there

40:30 are other people who can do pre-production.

40:32 Um, you know, for example, like Ben and Adam do a lot of the more operational,

40:37 you know, day-to-day tasks in pre-production and development for jetlag.

40:40 So that means like for jetlag,

40:42 my biggest point of involvement is that very earliest stage

40:47 where we literally get into a zoom call or sometimes

40:49 we're in the same room and we are just trying

40:51 to come up with the core premise of what we're doing.

40:54 Um, I like to believe that this is one

40:57 of the biggest difference maker phases in a project.

41:01 um especially on an algorithmic video platform

41:04 like YouTube where the concept really is everything.

41:07 Um so I believe it is probably both the place that the most value

41:13 is gained or lost and something that through like I've done it a lot.

41:19 It's not a skill that a lot of people have a lot of experience with because

41:24 most people have not made 800 or something

41:27 different videos on YouTube through the years.

41:29 So like I have a lot of success or failure at coming up with concepts,

41:33 seeing how they work, and learning from that.

41:36 Um, so I tend to think that's the part of it

41:38 that I've gained the most experience with and can provide the most value.

41:44 Well, I really wish we had time for more audience questions.

41:47 Uh, unfortunately, I'm being told to wrap it up,

41:49 but I have one more thing to ask, right?

41:51 How are you feeling, Sam?

41:53 So jetlagged.

41:54 He said the thing.

41:56 Thank you very much.

41:57 [applause] Good.

42:04 Heat.

42:04 Heat.

42:08 [applause]