The Truth About AIPAC Funding No One Is Talking About

0:00 Today's guest drove Barack Obama around in a van during the 2004 Senate campaign

0:03 and he eventually ended up in the White House situation room as NSC spokesman.

0:07 While that pipeline from campaign trail to the highest levels

0:09 of national security policy is a wild story in itself, Tommy Vietor,

0:12 he spent the years since building Crooked Media and staying

0:14 one of the sharper voices on foreign policy in political media.

0:17 Today we're diving into a lot.

0:18 Trump's war with Iran, Macron's final year in office and the ending of an era,

0:22 where the Democratic Party goes from here

0:23 and how a kid driving a van in Illinois ended up sitting in one of the most

0:27 sensitive national security conversations in the world.

0:29 And really just so much more.

0:30 Also, on a a personal note,

0:32 I have now had all five of the Pod Save guys on the show,

0:34 which yes, completes my Crooked Media Infinity Gauntlet.

0:37 While I figure out what to do with this this new power,

0:39 I just want to say I hope you enjoyed today's In Good Faith conversation.

0:42 And to Tommy Vietor, welcome to DeFranco Save America.

0:45 All right, so Tommy, right at right at the beginning,

0:47 I just have to say, you know, you and your co-hosts,

0:49 you know, you've you've been saying the Democrats need

0:51 to figure out how to win not just 2026, but 2028 and beyond that.

0:55 Right now, I want to ask you,

0:57 what is what is the single biggest thing

0:58 that the Democratic Party is getting wrong that's not Trump's fault,

1:01 it's not the media's fault, it is just Democrats themselves.

1:04 What are they doing badly?

1:06 Oh, man.

1:07 How much time you got?

1:08 Um, I look, I think there are a lot of Democrats um who are working hard,

1:14 who are trying to learn, who are doing smart things,

1:16 who are showing leadership on various issues, right?

1:18 Like someone like a Chris Van Hollen,

1:20 probably a a senator that a lot of your audience

1:22 hasn't heard of, has been a leader on uh you know,

1:25 when Trump was sending people down to gulags in El Salvador,

1:28 has been a leader on Gaza policy, has been a leader on foreign policy generally.

1:31 I think though the the trouble we get in as a party

1:35 is um it's still hard not to make everything about Trump.

1:40 And as his approval goes down,

1:42 as everyone knows this is likely to be a referendum

1:46 on his leadership and his tenure in the midterms,

1:48 I think it's it's comforting to see his numbers dip uh

1:52 and to think that will mean we are we will be successful,

1:55 but you're not seeing a commensurate rise in approval of the Democratic Party.

2:00 People still don't know what Democrats stand for.

2:02 Um they still don't trust that they fight for them.

2:05 Um I think we have not done enough to uh get back to our roots

2:09 as a party for working people and push more of a populist message.

2:13 So, I think that's a place where there's a lot

2:15 of work I think we still need to do.

2:17 Yeah, I do wonder how much the the messaging around funding,

2:20 obviously like AIPAC the the lightning rod where people are like, "Oh,

2:23 is that Democrat going to be funded by AIPAC?" But it does feel like

2:26 also a big thing that's come up is who is being funded by AI companies?

2:30 That's that's kind of gone overlooked and I don't know if you

2:32 see that there's any sort of rising sentiment or conversation around that.

2:37 You know, it's it's very funny you raise that.

2:39 I was um uh getting in a really pissy text fight [laughter]

2:44 with a friend who's a member of Congress um who uh

2:48 has been historically a big supporter of uh the US-Israeli relationship,

2:52 is Jewish, and I think um uh can sometimes take it

2:56 very personally when people criticize AIPAC or his positions on Gaza, etc.

3:01 And uh there are some real truth to that.

3:03 There is some uh criticism you see about AIPAC

3:06 or Israel that does have an underpinning of anti-Semitism,

3:09 but then there's people who are just angry about the policy.

3:11 And this person but he was making the point

3:13 to me that the Democratic Party's broader problem isn't foreign policy.

3:17 It's like being viewed as a corporate

3:19 party or and not fighting for working people.

3:21 And so, I think it's a very important point that you're

3:23 making because it AIPAC's like one of many interest groups,

3:27 but they're not all powerful.

3:29 They're not 10 ft tall.

3:30 If you look at the companies with or the the super

3:33 PACs and stuff with the most money, it's like the crypto guys.

3:37 It's the AI folks.

3:38 You know, there's billionaires and corporations that can pour

3:41 basically unlimited amounts of money into these super PACs.

3:43 And I think Democrats, I mean,

3:46 those are sort of like new or emerging industries.

3:49 So, I think it it's understandable that it

3:51 will take some time to find your footing Um on what the right approach is

3:56 to like AI for example from a legislative perspective,

4:00 but I do think that that when Barack Obama ran,

4:03 we didn't take PAC money or lobbyist money.

4:05 And I think trying to figure out areas where

4:07 you can draw those distinctions that make you not just

4:11 sound but show that you are more connected with voters

4:14 and grassroots donors and not just like big corporate interests.

4:17 Like I think that's really really important.

4:18 I do get though the the focus on AIPAC for two reasons.

4:21 One, obviously there's been a huge sentiment shift with Democrats, but then two,

4:25 they seem to be at least social media-wise trying

4:29 to if you're saying they're not as big as like almighty,

4:33 trying to make themselves seem that way.

4:34 Or like when they try to do like a victory lap

4:37 after Kat Abu Ghazaleh didn't get the didn't win the primary.

4:42 It seemed like they were like, yes, we did it.

4:44 And so I want to I guess connected to that ask you, you know,

4:47 you guys went from the Obama

4:49 administration's default position on Israel, you know, support military aid,

4:53 veto UN's resolutions to to publicly calling Israel's campaign in Gaza genocide,

4:58 demanding that Democrats cut billions in military aid, stop taking AIPAC money.

5:03 I think correct me if I'm wrong, I think you guys even called out Obama's,

5:06 you know, $3.3 billion aid deal back in the day.

5:09 I guess was there a specific moment that it kind of changed

5:14 for y'all or has it is maybe I'm bulking you got you all together.

5:18 So maybe there's like differing opinions,

5:19 but was there a a specific moment where okay, we feel this certain way,

5:24 we have this different thought, and then is that connected to okay,

5:28 let's say it out loud with the cameras and the mics?

5:30 Yeah, I mean, look, when you're in government,

5:32 you know, my job was not to express my opinion.

5:34 It was to sort of be a spokesman for a Barack Obama, right?

5:37 So I was in the White House from 20 2009 to 2013, and that was my job.

5:41 Um and through that time though, I've I look I'll I I was a I

5:46 worked in foreign policy and national security primarily.

5:49 Um and saw Bibi Netanyahu up close from early

5:54 on in that tenure through the very end.

5:56 And I'm proud to say that I've hated that[ __] since 2009.

6:00 He's a terrible person.

6:02 He's a corrupt racist right-wing authoritarian monster.

6:06 Um who I think is really like one of the great

6:08 villains of this period of time we're living in.

6:11 Um but that's a criticism of him as an individual, not a religion, right?

6:14 It's It's like in the same way I'm not a huge fan of Donald Trump.

6:17 That doesn't mean I hate America.

6:19 Um and I think those distinctions get get lost.

6:21 Regarding AIPAC, like yeah,

6:22 I think look up obviously a big part of the reason people focus

6:26 on AIPAC is um the horrible wars that have been ongoing since you know,

6:31 the last couple years, right?

6:32 The people are horrified by what's happening in Gaza

6:34 and now I'm horrified by what's happening in Iran.

6:37 Uh for me though, that the evolution of my willingness to speak

6:42 out about these issues came in part from my decision to leave

6:47 government and kind of burn the boats and not want to go

6:50 back into for government again or foreign policy sort of like circles

6:55 again because unfortunately um it is a well-known thing in DC circles

7:00 that if you are too critical of the Israeli government or speak

7:04 out against AIPAC or you know say the wrong things in certain

7:09 instances um you will not get hired again by members of Congress.

7:14 You will not be able to get Senate confirmed in jobs.

7:17 It it just breeds a lot of caution.

7:19 Um and I think that is a real problem and I think people should

7:22 worry less about that and worry more about um good policy and speaking honestly,

7:27 especially in the face of, you know,

7:29 horrible wars like we saw in Gaza or what's happening now in Iran.

7:33 So I mean the Obama administration, right?

7:34 They refused to to sell tankers and certain munitions to to Israel believing,

7:38 you know, they would likely strike Iran with it.

7:41 Uh were you involved in those conversations?

7:43 No, I mean I was involved in a lot of the early on um Middle East peace fights.

7:48 And a lot of it was over whether or not trying [clears

7:52 throat] to get the two sides to the table, begin a process,

7:56 uh and like kind of the preconditions that would

7:57 be necessary for that to be a constructive negotiation,

8:01 uh which often revolved around uh

8:03 Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank,

8:06 and demands that they stop it.

8:07 And I think with the benefit of hindsight,

8:10 and probably like could have was knowable at the time,

8:12 Bibi Netanyahu just like didn't want a peace deal.

8:15 He didn't want to create a Palestinian state.

8:16 He says as much now, and he's just a bad actor.

8:19 Um and so, you know,

8:20 I was around for some of like very early diplomatic frustration.

8:24 But, you know, in the background of those conversations,

8:27 Obama was pushing back on Israel uh and saying

8:30 he did not want to go to war with Iran.

8:32 He would not bomb them on their behalf.

8:34 You know, he wanted to take a diplomatic approach,

8:36 which Netanyahu fought as hard as he could,

8:38 uh but ultimately we got uh the JCPOA done.

8:42 Do you feel like that refusal it was kind of successful in delaying an attack?

8:46 I do.

8:47 I I do.

8:47 I think Netanyahu has always known that um there were

8:50 certain parts of Iran's nuclear infrastructure or some of the facilities

8:54 they had that were so far dug into the side

8:56 of a mountain that only the US could could take them out.

8:59 Um and so, his options were get the US to bomb these places for him,

9:03 or do an incredibly risky and dangerous uh like commando operation to put boots

9:08 on the ground uh at these sites

9:10 that would probably lead to mass numbers of casualties.

9:13 Uh and you can understand why he wouldn't want to do that.

9:15 So, certainly the JCPOA was in my view

9:19 um uh much preferable to what we're seeing now,

9:22 which is this like sort of every 6 months,

9:25 10 months bombing campaigns that doesn't actually deal

9:28 with the nuclear program or the nuclear risk in Iran permanently.

9:32 Yeah, I mean one of the things I I think back to with that, obviously

9:35 I I to fully put it in my my my rearview eventually,

9:39 but it makes me think of the the last election and how it felt like Harris

9:42 was getting kind of eaten from both sides

9:47 of like she wasn't doing enough for Israel,

9:49 but she was doing too much for Israel.

9:51 And one of the things then with y'all that it came to mind is, you know,

9:54 after Harris lost lost,

9:56 you guys interviewed the the senior campaign staff on the show,

9:59 and it felt like when I was going through and maybe it was anecdotal,

10:02 it felt like the response from the audience was brutal.

10:05 I don't know if that was your experience with it as well,

10:07 but it felt like, you know,

10:09 people felt like the campaign was like deflecting blame with like

10:12 political headwinds and kind of like refusing to acknowledge errors.

10:16 And I mean, looking back and I don't know if how much we can actually do

10:20 it cuz it's we're inundated with so much

10:21 every day and we're having to constantly look forward,

10:23 but on the occasion that you ever think back or look back,

10:26 do you think you gave them too soft of a a platform?

10:31 And then I'll connect a question to that kind of more broadly.

10:35 Is there a version of Pod Save America that can be both like this friendly

10:39 platform for Democrats and also a place

10:42 where there's like a genuine accountability mechanism?

10:45 Yeah, I so on the So, first of all,

10:48 on the interview itself, it wasn't a group thing.

10:50 It was It was Dan Pfeiffer who did the interview.

10:53 So, I don't want to like speak for him or or how he would view that interview.

10:56 Look, we're like the [laughter] same similar sort of person

11:01 to all worked in the Obama administration, similar ages.

11:04 Um And I think Dan's approach on that interview was

11:09 from the perspective of someone who has run a presidential

11:11 campaign or worked in the highest level in a White

11:13 House or presidential campaign and understands how hard it is.

11:17 Understands how hard it is when you kind of get thrown in in the last 100

11:21 days to replace a wildly unpopular president who

11:26 was self-evidently too old to be running for reelection,

11:29 but made a selfish arrogant choice to do so anyway,

11:33 and now you're kind of holding the bag for all of his fuck-ups, right?

11:37 And so I understand that there were people who wanted Dan to be tougher on them

11:41 or demand answers or call out[ __]

11:43 And like that's totally legitimate to feel that way,

11:45 but I think Dan's perspective was these are people I know,

11:47 I've worked with, I know how hard their jobs are.

11:50 My goal here is just sort of like get

11:51 information out of them about what they think happened, right?

11:55 And I think everyone else on the internet has their own view

11:57 and they they voice it and that's that's how it should be.

12:00 Um in terms of the accountability,

12:01 like for us I think the more the accountability moment came more

12:05 after the Democratic Party debate and Joe

12:07 Biden's debate with Donald Trump because

12:09 there's a version of like you saw it in a lot of other

12:12 progressive media spaces where they're like it wasn't so bad and you know,

12:16 he showed up the next day and did this rally

12:18 and then he did a press conference and everything is fine, right?

12:20 And it's it just it was so self-evidently not fine.

12:23 It was a disaster.

12:24 It was the worst debate performance ever and I think I'm trying to remember,

12:27 did did you did you publicly call Biden to step aside after?

12:32 Yeah, we we we recorded that.

12:34 So we were in Boston, we were on the road.

12:36 Remember we like rented a you know, we had a hotel room,

12:38 we were all watching together and we were recording in it after.

12:40 And within 5 minutes into the debate everyone's like this is a nightmare.

12:43 And um that night said as much, said it was you know,

12:47 the worst debate performance in history and that this should

12:51 start a conversation about whether he needs to step aside.

12:53 I think in that moment it kind of didn't look it

12:57 it was I can't remember how far we leaned into it.

13:01 I think everybody was sort of like what are they going to do the next day?

13:05 But the as things got worse and worse and worse,

13:09 we kept pushing both on the pod and on on social media.

13:12 And I mean now looking back on that, are you I I feel like you were

13:16 very happy and and with yourselves as far

13:19 as doing that because it does feel like and it was like the first 6 months

13:22 every politician was getting hit because it was believed

13:26 like they they secretly knew that he really

13:29 wasn't there and it wasn't just a bad performance.

13:31 Yeah, look I I'm for me I look I I'm more

13:35 of a half glass full person on that whole election like I I knew

13:40 I'm going to ask you to I'm going to ask

13:42 you to expand on how the glass half full part.

13:44 [laughter] Well, I just feel lost, right?

13:45 And so when I look back I'm like I'm not happy

13:47 that I said Joe Biden should drop out after the debate.

13:50 I'm mad at myself for not being

13:52 louder that he shouldn't have run for re-election.

13:55 Would it have made a difference?

13:56 Probably not, you know, because I think that Joe Biden made the decision

14:00 with a couple family members and a couple of close advisors and it seems obvious

14:05 that good information was not getting to him.

14:08 He was getting like[ __] polling and spun and just sort of, you know,

14:12 happy talk from the staff around him because if you think

14:14 about DC like the president of the United States is the sun

14:17 and everybody orbits around the sun and the closer you are

14:20 in that orbit the more or important the DC people think you are.

14:24 So there's this this vested interest in the closest people

14:26 around him to kind of cling to that, you know,

14:29 position and power for as long as they can even when

14:32 they're harming their boss and I think that's what happened here.

14:35 Um so, you know, what I think about is we

14:39 talked about Joe Biden's age a lot on the show.

14:41 We talked about our concerns that it was insurmountable.

14:45 We talked about the ways that we would recommend that he try

14:48 to assure voters that in fact he was up for the job.

14:53 But like and I never thought he actually it was able to do that, you know,

14:58 we we tried to we tried to approach

15:00 it from like a constructive perspective whereas,

15:03 you know, in hindsight maybe it would have been

15:04 better to say look the guy's too damn old.

15:06 He should drop out.

15:08 And I mean and when you're talking about, you know,

15:09 I I wish that maybe I had been louder I

15:12 guess to a certain degree do you feel like even saying

15:16 it after the debate at the at the level that you

15:18 did that there was sort of an impact there or no,

15:22 it was just I don't know if you helped rally the charge or I mean,

15:26 do you feel cuz there is a power to a certain degree and we're

15:30 going to get into like what you're trying to accomplish with the shows,

15:34 but do you feel like you had an impact like if we never know.

15:39 If you go back, you don't do it, you have a a different take,

15:42 do you think it plays out different or no?

15:44 Just that was too big.

15:45 I think it was perceived as meaningful

15:48 at the time because we were viewed as sort

15:50 of like insiders and Biden connected people

15:55 um and therefore the willingness to just sort

15:57 of like say what everyone saw was seen as notable because so much of politics

16:03 is like play acting and rooting for your team at all times uh and you know,

16:08 acting like things are okay when they're not.

16:10 Um and the fact that we didn't do that, I think, it made news, it got attention.

16:15 I also think that the Biden people um elevated us strangely by attacking us.

16:21 They they kind of like they they went after the show that like one

16:24 of the staffers like were sent out

16:25 a memo referring to self-important podcasters doubting Joe Biden.

16:29 It was just like obviously a shot at us, which is fine and like I look I again,

16:34 what makes this hard sometimes is we know these people,

16:37 we know they're doing their best like you've been in those jobs,

16:39 you know how hard it is.

16:41 Um ultimately if Joe Biden had stayed in and had run again,

16:45 I'd have to live with the fact that I was making it harder

16:47 for him to get reelected based on the things I was saying, right?

16:51 So, that's kind of what's in the back of my head.

16:53 Um I don't think we were the reason he dropped out, not even close,

16:56 but I do think that um it definitely was

17:00 uh it had an impact in those early days.

17:02 Yeah.

17:03 And I mean, with that impact, right?

17:04 One of the the things that I sometimes wonder about my show or any

17:07 show out there and I wonder if you think about it with Pod Save,

17:11 uh but you know, a lot of the time

17:13 you're talking to people who already agree with you, right?

17:16 Um Um, know, but do you think there is a world where,

17:21 you know, PSA it actually changed someone's mind who wasn't already a Democrat?

17:26 Or do you see like the real value of the the the show as as something different?

17:31 That it's really more about activation

17:34 of of people that are already aligned with you.

17:36 Yeah, it's a great question.

17:37 Something I think about a lot.

17:39 Weirdly, for in the beginning, the first few years of the show,

17:42 and maybe still today, I would always have people will say to me,

17:46 "We listen to you I listen to you and Ben Shapiro." It was like we

17:49 were seen as kind of like a balanced news diet for a lot of folks.

17:53 And I don't know if that meant they were progressive and they like

17:55 to like dabble in conservative talk or they're

17:58 conservative and they dabbled in progressive talk.

18:00 But I heard that a lot and I've and and more recently I've heard like, "Oh,

18:03 I listen to you guys and Tucker." Which

18:05 is interesting to sort of see this evolution.

18:07 So, I do think there are people who are who

18:09 listen to Pod Save America who aren't just the choir.

18:12 Now, I do think we do a lot of preaching to the choir.

18:15 And I think our when we started the company,

18:18 if you think back to the 2016 campaign, remember you'd be like watching CNN,

18:22 you'd be trying to figure out what was happening, and instead of getting news,

18:25 you would get a panel of like 17 people on the set,

18:28 including that guy Jeffrey Lord, who was like the one Trump person,

18:31 and they'd be yelling at each other, and you'd end it and you'd feel dumber

18:34 and bored and just like frustrated with the world.

18:37 And what we wanted to do was overtly activist media, which not only told people,

18:41 "Okay, you know, you're upset about the election,

18:44 here's what you can do about it.

18:45 And by the way, it's not going to be a one-shot thing.

18:48 It's not going to There's no quick fix.

18:49 It's going to be like an ongoing process of engagement in citizenship." So,

18:53 I do think that's the real value of the company and the show.

18:58 Like after our RBG died, right?

19:00 We were able to help raise a ton of money

19:03 for Senate candidates by talking about the stakes of the Supreme Court.

19:08 But it's a little the data's We don't have great data on the podcast side,

19:13 but on YouTube side, like that's where you see the explosive growth, right?

19:16 You see all of a sudden you ride that algorithm tiger somehow and like

19:20 some weird thing we did on South Park has a million views and you're like,

19:22 okay, well, this is this is surprising.

19:25 You mentioned Tucker.

19:25 I have to ask, are you the are you the demon that attacked Tucker?

19:29 If I had to sleep paralysis demon.

19:31 [laughter] That story is so funny, man, because like he's he says

19:34 that you could do you could say that and then just like continue your job.

19:40 [laughter] Well, the funny thing of Okay, he says he's in bed with four dogs.

19:44 Presumably one of the dogs scratched him, right?

19:47 Okay, I was like, there's nothing wrong with this story.

19:49 I was [laughter] like, I'm fine.

19:50 I was like, I'm I'm pro four dogs.

19:52 dog sleeps on my head.

19:53 I'm just saying if I woke up with scratches,

19:54 I would have I'd be like, oh, Luca, you scratched me.

19:56 I just think that's what happened.

19:57 [clears throat] Tucker's such an interesting character.

19:59 Um uh uh Jason Zengerle,

20:02 uh great author of The New York Times, wrote a book about him.

20:06 Uh it's called Hated by All the Right People.

20:07 We released it came out under our imprint.

20:10 And it's an amazing sort of like ti- uh tour through his life as sort of a well,

20:16 like truly one of the most talented magazine columnists out there,

20:19 sort of establishment conservative to where he's become today.

20:23 And I'll just tell you I I um during last year,

20:26 right before the last war with Iran, I saw Tucker speaking out against it.

20:30 I got his phone number for some from somebody

20:33 and I reached out to him and I said, "Hey, this is who I am.

20:36 Uh I've talked[ __] about you aggressively many times.

20:40 Uh just in full disclosure,

20:41 would you like though to have a conversation about what's happening

20:44 in Iran and your opposition cuz I find it interesting and principled.

20:47 Uh and I think it would send a message to like DC that the two

20:50 of us were having that conversation." And he

20:53 called me and it was an off-the-record conversation,

20:55 but he called like right away and he was um he said, "Look,

20:57 I can't do this for the following reasons."

20:59 And then we just chatted for 50 minutes.

21:01 And I was like, when we hung up,

21:02 I thought, "Oh, this is why people like this guy.

21:05 He's charming and he is funny and I get it." And then every

21:08 once in a while he'll slip in something that's um so conspiratorial you

21:12 are sort of like like trying to duck to see where that came

21:15 from cuz it just is is feels like out of out of left field.

21:18 Is that part of the the the Trump appeal cuz

21:20 it feels like everyone that that talks about him is

21:22 just like oh when when he's there with you

21:24 his his personality just it's just like a hug for your soul.

21:29 Yeah, it he is so clearly good at the personal politics and like Mhm.

21:35 from the outside it feels like that would not be

21:36 his vibe cuz he's such a narcissist and you know,

21:39 constantly talking about himself but I don't know if you I was watching

21:42 Mark Wayne Mullets Mark Wayne Mullens

21:45 confirmation Mark Wayne Mullet that's a good [laughter]

21:47 That's a funny that's funny.

21:49 on purpose.

21:50 Mark Wayne Mullin the new DHS secretary's confirmation hearing and Mullen

21:54 had a kid who had some sort of severe medical

21:57 thing happen Trump heard about it called him right away helped

22:01 the kid get into a better hospital then called every single

22:05 day during the campaign to check on him and it was

22:07 like literally the nicest thing I'd ever heard said about Donald

22:10 Trump and it I think it spoke to that sort

22:12 of personal political ability to kind of like make you feel loved.

22:15 Yeah, I mean whether it's him or well, at least Bill Maher for a minute

22:21 [laughter] just he has he has this like witchcraft.

22:23 Mhm.

22:24 Yeah.

22:24 and some of it's the office but some of it is

22:26 clearly I I don't know there's the guy's also funny, you know,

22:30 like we sometimes Democrats get so serious and like

22:33 I'll watch a Trump clip or an event and I'll

22:37 I know he's being offensive and saying shitty things

22:39 but like he makes that crowd laugh and they love it.

22:41 Oh yeah, the delivery absolutely.

22:43 Absolutely.

22:44 So actually on the note of having like that extra thing

22:46 I want to do kind of a a few fast questions.

22:50 But you can also

22:51 Sure, sure.

22:51 People people elaborate.

22:53 Who do you think is the most

22:54 talented Democrat under 50 that nobody's talking about?

22:57 I think people are talking about him but he gets less

23:00 shine than I think he will after his re-election if he wins,

23:03 which is Jon Ossoff.

23:04 I think Jon Ossoff is wild Jon Ossoff is wildly talented.

23:07 glad you said this cuz all of a sudden everyone's acting

23:09 like this guy just started existing 4 months ago and I've

23:12 been I said to someone that I think was working

23:15 on his campaign cuz I've been doing more local stuff here.

23:18 Uh I've mentioned to people I've been like

23:20 I would say like if Ossoff can can win,

23:22 he's like my dark horse candidate and all of a sudden now now

23:25 all of a sudden all these people are saying it and I'm like,

23:27 "Okay." But that it also makes me realize how much of this is just vibes.

23:32 Oh, yeah.

23:32 Uh at this at this stage, right?

23:34 Cuz I've talked I've said similar things and I'll get[ __] for it.

23:36 I've said similar things for a while

23:38 about uh AOC over whatever time period, right?

23:41 There's just something there regarding the the person

23:44 about personality and the care and and the belief.

23:47 And I've talked to people that would that are saying,

23:49 you know, "I'll vote for AOC or Ossoff." And I'm like,

23:52 but and even though the politics

23:54 are obviously not They're [laughter] they're not one-to-one.

23:57 And so how much of it is yeah, just vibes?

24:00 I don't I don't know.

24:01 I think it's vibes.

24:02 I think it's delivery.

24:02 I mean, Ossoff, look,

24:04 AOC and Ossoff are very different in that the thing I think is so credible

24:09 about her is like the whole the fact that she was a bartender like what,

24:13 6, 7, 8 years ago, right?

24:15 Like that means she's just more connected to the average person's existence

24:19 than almost anyone else in the US Senate or the House of Representatives.

24:23 And I remember when I started working for the Obamas

24:25 and they were started running for he started running for president,

24:29 they would talk about this the fact that they were uh

24:33 they were pretty normal most recently as compared to their colleagues, right?

24:37 Like Hillary Clinton hadn't driven a car in like 30 years cuz she had someone,

24:40 you know, Secret Service driving for.

24:42 But the Obamas had like lived in a little condo.

24:44 I saw it, you know, they they just paid off their student loans.

24:47 Like they understood the normal Americans

24:49 existence or existence better than almost anyone.

24:52 I think AOC has that.

24:53 Ossoff, when I see Ossoff, I think he's tall, he's good-looking,

24:58 he could deliver a line well, he's really thought hard about his message,

25:01 but he also strikes me as someone who's like,

25:03 he's decided to be a serious person and he projects that, right?

25:07 In a way in a way that's very different

25:08 than her, but I think it's quite it's quite compelling.

25:11 Yeah, the stuff you mentioned at the beginning

25:13 is very much it passes the Scott Galloway test.

25:16 He's like, "We need a strong pretty man." [laughter]

25:19 We need a strong pretty man.

25:20 Who's there?

25:21 Who is a Republican that you genuinely respect?

25:24 Rand Paul.

25:25 Don't agree with him.

25:27 Uh Thomas Massie is in a similar place, but these are people that take a lot

25:32 of[ __] from their own party for taking principled positions,

25:35 ones that I don't always agree with, but I

25:36 think um it takes guts to do that, right?

25:39 If Thomas Massie has got a primary campaign being funded by, you know,

25:43 Trump lackeys because he won't uh bow down to the Trump all the time.

25:47 Yeah, this was I I like that you said that cuz I this is

25:50 a thing I I I extended it to to to Marjorie Taylor Greene with with asterisks,

25:57 but I do think that there is there is a credit

25:58 because so many so many of the people that do speak up,

26:01 you start saying former in front of their name, right?

26:04 And so, the fact that they're doing it, still fighting,

26:07 you have to give them at least props for that.

26:09 And then when they[ __] you on other stuff,

26:10 you know, still call it out, but I like that.

26:13 And and look, the reason I'm a I'm

26:14 a hypocrite is because John Fetterman drives me insane.

26:17 Oh, come on.

26:18 There's nothing wrong with turning on Fetterman cuz he Have you Have you gone

26:22 back and watched videos of this man

26:23 campaigning and you're just like, "Who are you?" Who's this different man?

26:27 The fact that he's like found his niche kind of being

26:30 antagonistic about wanting to kill more people in Gaza and Iran,

26:34 it's just it's so gross and bizarre.

26:36 I I don't understand it.

26:37 So, there there's already that level of it,

26:39 but then people that act tough because other people are going

26:42 to fight because they have the power like that's just I mean,

26:45 to use right-wing it's beta[ __][ __] Anyway, why am am saying this?

26:50 I have a pod save guy.

26:51 I got to keep it clean.

26:52 I I beta all day.

26:54 We'll [laughter] beta[ __] all day.

26:58 [music] I'll get you right back to the pod in just a minute,

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28:00 Is Joe Rogan good or bad for political discourse?

28:04 I could argue it both ways.

28:05 So, he's talking to millions and millions of people,

28:08 um and maybe he's the only political

28:11 or current events news that they're getting, right?

28:14 I mean, on some level he's informing the masses.

28:17 Now, the counterpoint to that is uh often people that are

28:21 not experts in what they're talking about or even well-informed.

28:25 There's too much emphasis on conspiratorial stuff.

28:28 Like I I I always think of this um

28:32 this article I read about this documentary called Loose Change,

28:36 which your listeners might know is like kind of the OG conspiracy

28:40 theory video about the 9/11 attacks being staged and like you know,

28:44 jet fuel won't melt steel beams, all that[ __] The early copies of um

28:49 of Loose Change were uh mailed out with cassettes,

28:54 and Joe Rogan was one of the earliest purchasers.

28:56 Um and I think that Really?

29:00 [laughter] I think that tells you a lot about his kind

29:01 of worldview and how he's been informed coming up.

29:03 So, I don't know.

29:05 I I'm I'm I don't want to say he's bad.

29:07 I'm loath to say he's bad cuz at least he's engaging on these topics.

29:11 I do wish I do worry that the more sort of like

29:15 rich and cocooned in this bubble in Austin he has become,

29:19 the more impenetrable it's become to like opinions that he does not

29:22 agree with or that in any way um attack his kind of milieu.

29:27 Yeah, I haven't I haven't watched a a ton recently.

29:30 I think where I started kind of falling off was when I started seeing cuz he

29:35 it was still during a time where he

29:36 would bring people on that had conflicting views,

29:38 but then seeing how kind of like easygoing he was with someone that had views

29:43 on the right versus someone that was either

29:45 pro-vaccine or something that was on the left.

29:47 It was just it was very different.

29:49 It wasn't I'm hearing people out.

29:50 It wasn't Cuz there there were also was a time and you know,

29:53 it was initially a criticism where he kind of just

29:55 adopted the viewpoint of whoever he was he was speaking to.

29:58 It was like kind of that that thing where people he

30:00 would even compare him to Trump to some to some degree.

30:02 Yeah.

30:03 I I think like the argument that he's bad

30:04 for the world is the vaccine stuff because I think Look,

30:09 I'm I'll be the first to admit that the novel coronavirus

30:13 and the debate around the vaccine for it was unique and hard

30:17 for people and emotional and there was a lot that the health

30:21 experts screwed up at the time and there's reason for mistrust.

30:24 But I've heard Rogan talk about the polio vaccine not working

30:29 and and suggesting that that was like there's no evidence for it.

30:33 And like that stuff I think is like quite quite dangerous.

30:36 Where he pops up for me now is when he There

30:38 are those videos where it's like even Joe Rogan called out Trump.

30:41 But then we get into this kind of debate

30:43 of how how helpful is it moving forward?

30:48 And then that gets kind of connected to people saying, "Okay,

30:51 what's what's someone that voted for or what do you call

30:54 someone that voted for Trump three times and then said like,

30:57 'Ah, he's not my guy anymore.'" And people saying,

30:59 you know, it's a JD Vance or Rubio voter.

31:01 Right?

31:01 So, are those people actually movable?

31:04 And it brings back to what you're saying

31:05 of Democrats needing to have messaging other than Trump bad.

31:08 Trump bad can be part of the messaging because you just look around.

31:12 You fill up your gas tank.

31:13 Okay.

31:14 You look at a number of factors in life.

31:16 You see it.

31:17 Yeah, I look, I do that a lot too.

31:18 I constantly I'm clipping like what Shawn Ryan said about Trump,

31:22 who's another sort of like military YouTuber with a huge following.

31:25 Or what did Joe Rogan say?

31:26 Some criticism of Trump.

31:28 And I think it's valuable in that you know,

31:30 the Trump coalition this last time kind of like was the MAGA base.

31:33 And there was some, you know,

31:34 married women that kind of peeled off from the Democratic Party.

31:37 And there was all these young men who were first-time voters.

31:40 And I And like, I'm happy to see a lot of them abandoning Trump.

31:43 I think the question is abandoning for what?

31:46 And I worry it's just kind of like

31:47 abandoning him for nihilism and or not voting.

31:50 What do you think the the worst political take you've ever had is?

31:53 I was trying to think of this for myself and I still haven't come down to it.

31:56 I need to I need to dedicate some time.

31:58 Uh my worst political take by far was Hillary Clinton can't lose.

32:02 You know, like just the arrogance leading into the 2016 election,

32:06 the dismissal of Trump,

32:09 the lack of um stepping out of conventional wisdom and kind of like what

32:16 the experts were saying and what the polls were saying to think, you know what?

32:20 Throughout our history, um we have seen right-wing populists who'd appear to be

32:25 buffoons who are saying the same sorts of things,

32:28 America first, democrat demagoguing uh immigrants

32:31 or Muslims or some other out group.

32:34 And that has been incredibly politically effective.

32:37 Uh especially when it comes on the the heels of um you know,

32:42 economic anger and anxiety and hardship over the course of a year,

32:46 basically since the financial crisis, or decades since the financial crisis.

32:48 So, could not have gotten 2016 more wrong if I tried.

32:53 And I I Well, I guess I did try.

32:54 So, how about that?

32:56 Well, I will say, I mean, you you've even said like if Hillary Clinton had won,

32:59 Crooked Media probably would have stayed a hobby, right?

33:02 Uh so, I mean [laughter] That's the unfortunate thing for a lot of things.

33:06 I was going to if if Kamala won, I was going to start winding down the show so

33:09 I can relate to a certain sir- to a certain degree.

33:12 But, I mean, it is then wild to imagine

33:15 or to think of what has kicked off for you guys.

33:16 Cuz when you were talking about money being raised, is it is it right?

33:20 I I feel like I remember seeing this figure.

33:22 Y'all have raised over 70 million dollars uh through Vote Save America?

33:26 Yeah, look, and a lot of that was like um just when major events would occur,

33:32 trying to help people uh get a link to an Act Blue like to an Act

33:36 Blue page so it went directly to uh the campaign or cause itself, right?

33:40 We didn't want to like funnel this stuff through us.

33:42 Now, more recently, we started um Vote Save America has become

33:45 a PAC for a bunch of legal reasons that are boring.

33:48 Um but but yeah, no, it's something we're very proud of.

33:51 Like, I think what makes what we do at Crooked Media different

33:53 what Pod Save America does is we're like not just overtly partisan,

33:58 but overtly activist.

33:59 We knock on doors ourselves, we donate to candidates,

34:02 we, you know, push people to support individuals.

34:06 Um that's I think what makes it different,

34:08 I think, and makes it um I don't know,

34:11 feel more true to us because I think, you know,

34:14 there was this sense of like false objectivity that I just didn't work for me.

34:18 Yeah.

34:19 I don't know.

34:19 I just I just I I do like to think of what came from I mean,

34:23 you even saying like it was a wrong thing or a failure,

34:25 all that's kind of stemmed from it and how often that can happen.

34:29 I'm just like a huge butterfly wings guy.

34:31 Like, the worst things Yeah.

34:33 that have happened to me in my life.

34:34 uh Um if I think about them today,

34:37 I wouldn't change a thing because I feel like it got me from here to there,

34:40 just you know, because I don't know.

34:43 It's fate.

34:44 I want to talk about uh Pod Save

34:45 the World specifically cuz uh you've said that, you know,

34:49 it's about kind of recreating the the phone

34:51 call you used to make at the NSC, right?

34:53 Calling the expert, hitting mute, uh learning alongside the reporter.

34:57 Uh for for something that's around foreign policy, right?

35:02 Uh do you think that Americans actually want

35:06 to understand foreign policy or do you think

35:08 they want to like feel they understand it or be armed for some sort of debate?

35:14 I think there's a subset of people that really care

35:17 deeply about the world um and want to understand it better.

35:22 So, basically, you know, for your listeners,

35:24 what I I I worked on Obama's campaigns from 2004 to 2009,

35:29 went to the White House,

35:30 and then started working on national security issues, and then in like 2011,

35:33 I got uh promoted to the national security staff proper.

35:37 Um so, I didn't really know what the hell I was talking about.

35:40 I was learning on the job.

35:41 And a lot of my job was just getting

35:42 people information about what Obama was doing or an issue.

35:46 And so, you know, some really smart reporter would call and they'd say,

35:48 "I want to learn about what you guys are doing on Cuba."

35:50 And I'd patch them through to this expert we had on staff,

35:53 and I'd shut up and listen.

35:55 Um and the early iterations of Pod Save the World were

35:58 a lot of that, like me going back to the well

36:00 of all these experts I knew and loved and kind

36:01 of like pulling as much information out of them as I could.

36:04 And then, Ben Rhodes, my co-host, moved to LA.

36:07 We started doing it together weekly.

36:09 And now, it's just become a weekly conversation, if not more,

36:12 about the biggest things happening in national

36:15 security and foreign policy in the world.

36:16 And like the perspective we try to apply to it is what

36:20 can Washington do about it or what should they be doing about it?

36:22 And I really do think, you know, it's my favorite thing I get to do every week.

36:26 I really do think there's an audience out

36:27 there of people who are incredibly intellectually curious,

36:31 want to know more, want to understand more,

36:33 but can be gatekept by the subject matter.

36:35 Because there's all these acronyms, right?

36:37 And like people [clears throat] treat you like

36:38 you're stupid if you don't know certain things.

36:41 Um and I went through that myself.

36:43 And um I think, you know, when we do this show well,

36:47 we try to like push that crap aside or at least explain the basics

36:51 of an issue and kind of like ladder people up to the more complicated part.

36:54 But I do I do find that there is um a real genuine

36:58 interest um from folks in like the wonkiest kind of sweetest way possible.

37:02 For those that don't have it initially,

37:04 do you ever think of how you can make people

37:06 care about something that's hap- happening to people far, far away?

37:11 Cuz I I I know that when we've covered stories,

37:14 there's there's a kind of like tips and trip tricks to to make things relatable.

37:18 I think even it's I mean, it's a very dark way to look at it,

37:21 but I think it's why when we're talking about war or attack,

37:24 people talk about figures uh in women and children.

37:28 I think uh like those things of oh well, I have a kid.

37:31 Oh, I have a wife.

37:32 Um and maybe it makes it more approachable.

37:36 Cuz I mean, when I talk about USAID, and you know,

37:39 we were talk like when Dozh was destroying

37:42 that, uh and we're talking about the numbers,

37:44 it's the numbers are so big that it's hard to comprehend, right?

37:48 Th- you you it's it's like a bomb going off every single day.

37:52 If you're talking about the the how how it's going to impact Do

37:55 you have Do you have any thoughts on how to make people care?

37:58 Yes.

37:58 I I I I think you like you just nailed it,

38:02 which is when you talk about statistics, it can be numbing.

38:06 Um millions of people died, you know, millions of people displaced.

38:10 If you can figure out that individual story or anecdote, or better yet,

38:14 like get a voice note from the person

38:16 who's living through this nightmare themselves,

38:18 or interview them, or lift up this example of like

38:21 one individual and and their suffering and their story.

38:23 I think that is what's um I think is so powerful and compelling.

38:28 Um and it's something we we try to do.

38:30 Like we've been trying every week to get someone in Iran

38:33 to like either talk to us or send us an update or something.

38:37 But the internet's been down, right?

38:38 So like the it just and also like you it's hard to protect

38:41 people um from the regime if they're speaking out and sending you that stuff.

38:45 But like that's kind of like what we endeavor to do.

38:47 Uh don't always succeed, but it it's I think the best way to make people care.

38:51 And for you specifically, I mean when you were talk we were talking about,

38:54 you know, you're someone that's actually sat in the situation room, right?

38:57 You were the the NSC spokesperson.

38:59 When when when you watch everything with Iran unfolding, right?

39:03 What do you see that I maybe the average

39:05 person watching cable TV or watching even these podcasts doesn't?

39:09 Back in the day when I was there,

39:11 there was a system and process in place that didn't guarantee a good outcome,

39:16 but a bad process and bad planning I think can guarantee a bad outcome,

39:20 and that's what we're seeing now.

39:22 So back in the day in the run-up to something like a war or an invasion,

39:27 the National Security staff would convene

39:30 the government uh and all of its agencies.

39:32 So it would start at a low level, then the deputies of all the agencies would

39:36 get together as the Deputy Secretary of State, Deputy Secretary of Defense,

39:39 then their bosses would get together,

39:41 and then the final decisions would come to the president,

39:44 and he would make them and sign off, and you'd march out.

39:46 But what those lower-level conversations did was

39:49 really try to like red team stuff, think through all the downside risks,

39:53 think of all the planning and communication you would need to do,

39:56 like the hundreds of cables you would send to every embassy,

40:00 and who would be calling who, right?

40:02 Like I think about the bin Laden operation, for example.

40:05 Like there was a book this thick uh of what was going

40:08 to happen the minute the mission itself was executed to ensure that, you know,

40:13 the Pakistanis didn't break off relations with us for a decade, for example.

40:17 And when I see what's happening now with Iran,

40:19 you can just tell that planning did not happen.

40:23 Um there basically isn't a national security staff anymore.

40:26 Marco Rubio is both the national security advisor and the Secretary of State,

40:31 which like is just not any No one can do both of those jobs.

40:34 Those are big jobs.

40:36 And so but when I read anecdotes in the paper like the the nation's

40:41 strategic petroleum reserve was only 60% full at the outset of the war,

40:46 knowing full well the Iranians would likely, you know,

40:49 block the Strait of Hormuz and cut off flows,

40:51 like that seems to be just like a glaring example of zero planning happening.

40:56 What are you talking about?

40:57 Trump said no one knew this could happen.

40:58 Yeah, no one knew.

40:59 No one knew.

41:00 I was like I'll talk to all these No one knew.

41:02 all these like amazing sweet Why do I infant- infantilize them?

41:07 All these like brilliant nerds I talk to who work

41:10 on Iran policy were like every war game we've ever been

41:12 to that like kind of games out a US-Iran conflict ends

41:15 with the Strait of Hormuz being mined or closed in some way.

41:18 It's like every time.

41:19 Yeah, I I loved that he said that and then

41:21 of course immediately there's reporting there's

41:22 like actually there was this Although

41:24 we're also seeing reporting that part of his briefs is

41:27 that he gets like essentially a 2-minute highlight cut of bombs.

41:30 Have you seen I mean I imagine you've

41:31 seen this and probably talked about it already.

41:33 Dude, no I I read that this morning.

41:34 It sounds like he gets like a 2-minute snuff

41:36 film every morning of like the biggest air strikes.

41:39 talk.

41:39 It's just he's like here you are, sir.

41:41 Here's your Here's your personal feed.

41:43 It's crazy.

41:43 Like it should This is like quite literally what happened in Vietnam,

41:47 which is like they'd send out General Westmoreland

41:49 to be like we bombed this many people,

41:50 we killed this many you know, Viet you know, the Viet Cong today.

41:54 It's like that doesn't add up to a victory.

41:57 Well, yeah.

41:57 I mean I Are you of the mindset that no matter what happens from here,

42:01 he's just kind of a different level of screwed and so to a certain degree we

42:05 as Americans are certain level of screwed cuz

42:08 I've seen economists saying that even if you know,

42:10 he claimed victory and backed off, the the the world as we kind of knew it

42:14 in the systems in place are kind of irreversibly changed.

42:18 Is that Is that your understanding?

42:20 Yeah, I mean, I was talking to an expert on this yesterday um uh

42:22 who wrote a book about like economic

42:24 choke points and their vulnerability in war.

42:26 And I asked this person, you know,

42:27 um how long if the war ended today if the war ended today,

42:31 how long would gas prices or energy prices be elevated?

42:33 And this person said years.

42:35 Um and that's because and not just Brent crude prices

42:38 or the price of oil and the ends up in your gas tank,

42:41 but natural gas uh the Qatari uh natural gas fields that were bombed,

42:45 they said that 17% of their capacity is going to be offline for 3 to 5 years.

42:51 So, that will just like impact the entire world.

42:53 And then on top of that, I mean,

42:54 you've already had this huge choke point for fertilizer supplies,

42:58 which could lead to um you know,

43:00 developing in poor countries not having enough fertilizer and not

43:04 being able to plant their crops and people starving.

43:06 So, I think I think at this point like the toothpaste is out of the tube.

43:09 Um the best outcome is a war that ends today.

43:12 The second best is a war that ends tomorrow, but I'm worried,

43:16 you know, I just saw a report of this great reporter I follow,

43:18 his name is Alex Ward at the Wall Street Journal,

43:20 reported that three Republican like senior members of Congress are talking

43:25 about a ground operation like it's kind of about to happen.

43:30 So.

43:30 Well, it does feel like based off of every time it's

43:32 like we're going to negotiate for a certain amount of time,

43:34 it does feel like he's just waiting for the markets to close so that he can

43:37 do it the next thing and then also say it on on Monday where he pulls back,

43:41 but if we do boots on the ground, he can't pull back.

43:44 Right, exactly.

43:45 Yeah, the the the Monday announcement like it really So,

43:48 the the tale of the tape the last couple days was Trump threatened

43:52 uh Iran that if they didn't open the Strait of Hormuz within 48 hours,

43:55 we'd start bombing their power plants,

43:57 which is a bunch of war crimes, but whatever.

43:59 Um then Monday morning he wakes up and he

44:01 sees the Asian stock markets are way down,

44:03 the European stock markets are way down,

44:05 uh S&P 500 futures are way down, so he says, "You know what?

44:08 Nope, let's hit pause for 5 days." which,

44:11 as you just noted, will be when the markets close again.

44:14 Uh but I think it's just[ __] It's just

44:16 telling the markets what they want to hear, manipulation.

44:18 I want to to switch from that guy back to you real quick.

44:21 Uh something that you mentioned as far as like your rise.

44:23 So, you you went from driving Obama's press

44:26 van during rural Illinois or across rural Illinois,

44:30 rather, uh to then, you know, co-founding this company, huge deals.

44:35 You you've talked in the past about your like your prep school background,

44:39 uh the the kind of like class privilege that you know, scaffolded your career.

44:43 Uh with with all of that, did any of the skills that you actually

44:46 need to run a media company come from any specific place, all of the places?

44:51 What was the most beneficial thing?

44:53 Campaign work.

44:54 I mean, like so, it's funny that the [clears throat] van driver thing

44:57 follows me around cuz Republicans Republicans whenever

45:00 I say something on Twitter these days, someone will be like, "Shut up,

45:02 you van driver." Like, what that means is in 2004 when

45:06 [laughter] I worked on Barack Obama's Senate campaign,

45:09 is that I was the lowest guy in the totem pole in the press office.

45:11 So, that meant like writing press releases,

45:13 taking reporter calls, doing all this stuff.

45:15 And then when we go downstate,

45:17 I would drive the press van like behind uh Obama's car.

45:20 And the reason that was so funny to me was um

45:23 I would end up like having to slow down a couple

45:25 ya- like 100 yards or two cuz I could see him

45:27 smoking and I just didn't want like a cigarette to fly out,

45:30 you know, land in the AP reporter's lap or something.

45:32 Um so, that was one of my jobs.

45:34 And then uh I went to Iowa for the 2007 caucus campaign.

45:40 Um and I think that experience was really formative for me because it was like,

45:45 you know, 10 of us at the start, couple hundred at the by the end.

45:49 I watched an organization get built.

45:51 I watched politics get done the right

45:53 way in the sort of like aspirational organizing,

45:57 building, like just this inspiring year of my life.

46:00 And it also taught me that you know,

46:03 you just couldn't be too big for your britches and like

46:05 all of us did every job no matter how shitty like

46:08 our boss Paul Tewes was kind of a maniac and one

46:11 day he would wake up and tell all the senior staff

46:13 that tomorrow you're going canvassing and draw a county out

46:16 of a hat and then we did that once and we realized

46:19 that all the counties he'd drawn or he'd put in the hat

46:21 were as far away from Des Moines as was physically possible.

46:24 So I was driving like to Minnesota basically to go

46:27 knock on doors for 5 hours and then coming back.

46:30 And so like you just learn to to grind and you know do whatever and I think

46:34 that was like great preparation for politics and working

46:37 in a White House where uh you know,

46:40 as a press person you can be working on one thing one

46:43 day and wake up the next day and the entire world is talking

46:46 about something else and you got to chase chase that soccer ball like

46:49 a little kid and just kind of do what you got to do.

46:52 You hit on it but man, you got to love that double standard.

46:54 So you'll always be a van driver,

46:56 AOC will always be a bartender but Mark Wayne Mullin

46:59 is man of the people cuz he was a plumber.

47:01 That's right.

47:01 And an MMA guy.

47:02 Although he's like a nepo plumber.

47:04 So it's like whatever.

47:06 Really?

47:06 He does look good.

47:07 yeah.

47:07 I would I I I learn all sorts of things about a number

47:10 of Republicans that I don't want to thanks to my buddy Alex Berman.

47:13 He when he just ranted I'm like nepo plumber never heard that before.

47:16 Nepo plumber I love that.

47:17 But yeah, I I loved Driving the van was actually

47:20 a blast cuz I got to go like hang out everywhere.

47:26 I'll get you right back to the pod in a minute but first let me say you know,

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48:32 So Tommy, while we are uh you know,

48:33 talking about personal things and uh this is kind of more of a sensitive topic,

48:38 but I think it was it was very meaningful to me when uh when I read it.

48:41 Uh in January 2022, uh you and your wife you

48:45 you lost your your your daughter at uh 24 weeks.

48:49 You wrote about it publicly.

48:50 You talked about it on the show.

48:52 Uh you called for for men to be more open about pregnancy loss and miscarriage.

48:56 And so I want to ask you cuz it's something I always constantly think

49:00 of of like what's public and what's not

49:01 public and what can be helpful and what's not.

49:03 What made you decide to to talk about that publicly when

49:08 I think your instinct's probably to keep most personal things private.

49:12 Yeah, I I'm I'm like a pretty private person, right?

49:15 Like I've sort of over time made a decision not really

49:18 like post photos of my kids and stuff or like I

49:21 don't know I just like I I do worry about putting

49:23 too much about them in the world that they can't control.

49:27 But in this case, I mean, I'm happy to talk about this stuff honestly and um I

49:32 you're very kind to like kind of be delicate about it,

49:34 but I think um a lot of people who

49:37 experience loss like that, I think kind of want

49:40 to be asked about it more than you'd think

49:42 because it keeps that memory of the person alive, right?

49:46 And for us it was a it was a we had a stillborn baby girl at 24 weeks.

49:50 I mean, she it was uh absolutely gut-wrenching nightmare of an experience.

49:57 And the broader context was my wife and I

49:59 have been trying to get pregnant for a while.

50:01 I think we [clears throat] had six or seven miscarriages.

50:03 Like we literally stopped counting because it just was that painful.

50:07 But then, you know, with with our daughter Margot,

50:10 we thought we were past this kind of magical point where

50:14 a fetus could be viable outside of the womb and we'd be okay.

50:17 And then I remember forget, you know,

50:19 one day Hannah like just knew something was wrong.

50:21 She went and got an ultrasound and then went

50:26 to the hospital and called me and was like,

50:28 you know, I think this is happening and sort of our lives were upended.

50:31 And it's just an unbelievably devastating experience because

50:36 um not only do you lose your child,

50:38 but like she has to give birth at that point.

50:40 And so you're in the hospital for 24 hours

50:43 to go through this process that is supposed to be,

50:45 you know, kind of the outcome is the happiest day of your life.

50:48 And in reality it's like the worst thing you could ever imagine.

50:52 Um and so, you know, I went through that.

50:56 I was very blessed to be at this company working with my friends who were like,

51:02 "Take all the time you need." Right?

51:03 So I kind of disappeared for a month.

51:05 Um and just try to figure out how to work through it.

51:08 And it's funny you ask about this today because I literally

51:10 just got a DM from a reporter I know who said,

51:15 "I just experienced the same thing.

51:17 Do you have any advice for me?

51:18 I remember hearing you talk about this back in the day." And getting

51:21 that message um from him was both devastating just sort of like for this person,

51:27 but a reminder that there is real value in talking about these things

51:31 cuz there's not a lot of places you hear about this stuff.

51:34 Um and so my advice to people is like I lean into it,

51:39 lean into the grief, you know, like don't try to go hide and be alone.

51:42 But I remember we got back from the hospital, I think Hannah was like,

51:45 "I don't want anyone in the house, you know, let's just be together.

51:48 And then our friends just kind of invaded and didn't wouldn't take no

51:53 for an answer and I thought that was the best thing they could have done.

51:56 And we threw like a you know,

51:57 a little kind of like Shiva funeral ceremony for our daughter.

52:01 And one of my friends gave another friend COVID.

52:05 No, no, at the baby funeral.

52:08 No.

52:08 Which is No.

52:10 In hindsight really[ __] funny.

52:12 And it's a funny thing to do to somebody in hindsight.

52:14 Um, but it was um you know, it was it was devastating.

52:18 But look, like we were talking about earlier like

52:20 the butterfly wings thing like now we have two kids.

52:24 Um, and if that hadn't happened my two

52:28 children would not be here with us today, right?

52:30 Something would have been different and changed

52:32 in the timing and everything else.

52:33 Uh, and I will never stop being grateful to whomever for them

52:39 being here and therefore not change anything even if it was uh,

52:44 unbearably sad at the time.

52:46 It is amazing like the how loss it it it

52:50 it is that like the natural feeling of wanting to retreat,

52:53 but that just kind of it that is like one of the positive things of the internet

52:58 and community of like that initial thing of what

53:00 was supposed to bring us together rather than divide us.

53:02 And so and it does feel like it's often not always the case cuz a lot

53:07 of the tragedy that we see it's people going who's who's who's fault is it,

53:11 but that it brings in that sense of community.

53:13 Did the response I know that you you know,

53:15 you mentioned that that other reporter,

53:16 but what was what was the initial response like I'll just say

53:21 for you because I don't want you to speak for anyone else.

53:23 It was like overwhelming overwhelming kindness and decency uh,

53:29 and love from people checking in in a in a way that was um it was really moving.

53:35 It was it was like it was quite it meant a lot.

53:39 Uh, in a way that was surprising cuz

53:40 I'm someone who's normally like a little bit cynical,

53:43 especially about[ __] on the internet.

53:45 Um but, you know, when you post something where you're

53:48 just kind of like ripping your guts out on Instagram,

53:50 like that's very unlike me.

53:51 Uh but, then to have just like thousands of people

53:54 just sort of like throwing love at you, being kind,

53:57 reaching out, um it it impacted me more than I would

54:01 have ever have expected in a in a very positive way.

54:04 So, you've built, you know,

54:05 this this company on the foundation of the Obama years.

54:09 Mhm.

54:09 But, you've also, you know, publicly broken from Obama positions.

54:14 If Obama, I think, sat down and listened to, let's say,

54:17 the last year of Pod Save America, what do you think he'd agree with and what

54:21 do you think maybe not even he would disagree with.

54:24 What would What do you Do you Is there something he would be disappointed with?

54:27 I think it might not be on policy.

54:29 I think it might be on like tenor and tone and approach to politics,

54:32 because he is just like the ultimate believer

54:36 in striving to bring people together and to reach across

54:42 boundaries and to use a tone that is inclusive

54:46 and can go like grow the size of the tent.

54:49 And I think like when you live and breathe

54:52 in the kind of Trump era news cycle all day long,

54:55 you get mad and you get bitter and you hate people and you lash out, right?

54:59 And, you know, like if he if if he heard

55:03 me say that Stephen Miller looks like a sentient vampire penis,

55:07 would that make him proud to have employed me?

55:09 Probably not.

55:10 Would I take it back?

55:11 No.

55:12 He does.

55:13 I'm not going to say anything too bad about

55:15 the people that still talk about the high road,

55:17 but I think I think that's it's a little old.

55:20 It's a little hopefully we can get back there in the future.

55:23 There are certain people that I definitely want to have that mindset, but right.

55:27 The world's complicated, okay?

55:29 Relationships are complicated.

55:30 When I see big right-wing personalities that say

55:33 crazy[ __] hanging out with a lot

55:36 of the big left people that say I what I feel like is a lot of normal[ __]

55:42 [laughter] and they're seemingly friends.

55:42 Like I want I want there to be debate and discussion,

55:44 but it does feel like there's a lot of bad

55:47 actors and there's not a lot of good faith and so

55:50 I don't know and so and and the unfortunate thing

55:52 is like I want those conversations be able to happen.

55:55 I want people to still be connected and not close doors,

55:57 but there is a part of me that makes me makes it feel like it's all a game.

56:01 Like it's all a show.

56:02 It's all about followers and I don't know how to it you know,

56:06 I'm I'm talking broadly and so people are

56:08 going to apply it to individuals here and there,

56:09 but I just I I can't put that thought away in my head.

56:14 I I wrestle with this all the time because it's not just true for it's not only

56:18 true for the kind of media personality and types

56:21 where suddenly you see like you're like wait,

56:22 I thought you guys were on the opposite end, but you're buddy-buddy.

56:25 Does that mean you're just kind of play acting when you talk about this stuff?

56:28 But you'd also see it in Congress, right?

56:29 Like Mhm.

56:30 the Joe Biden would always talk about like

56:32 his friendship with some segregationist southerner and you're like well,

56:36 you shouldn't Is that good?

56:38 Um and I it's something that that I think it's worth being mindful

56:41 of which is you don't want to seem like it's just a bit.

56:46 You're just playing a part or performing.

56:48 That said, I do think like there's ways, you know,

56:50 we all live in a complicated world with complicated

56:53 friends and lives and you can have relationships

56:55 with people and really really disagree with them or dislike

56:58 them um when it comes to some other thing.

57:01 I think you know, you know,

57:03 you reference sort of like the I think though when they go low,

57:06 we go high comment from Michelle Obama which I

57:08 feel like it's thrown back in her face a lot.

57:10 And I think people would what people miss is um

57:13 I mean that was the right approach for her, right?

57:15 It was like

57:16 and that's why I say different different different avenues for different people.

57:18 I love I love some people having that.

57:21 Totally.

57:21 And I also I do wonder my kind of theory of politics is I think there's

57:26 like a giant pendulum in this country that kind

57:28 of swings back and forth at different speeds.

57:31 And I'm just really really hoping that we

57:34 are swinging away from the kind of Trump era

57:37 tone and we are getting back to more

57:40 of a Obama era hope and change bringing people together.

57:43 I do think that's why you're seeing like a James Talrico do

57:47 pretty well in Texas because he's speaking to more of those better angels.

57:51 Now, I'm not naive.

57:52 I realize Donald Trump has won twice including pretty recently.

57:56 Um that brand of politics can be very effective,

57:59 but I do think ultimately like most voters want a politics

58:03 that just does stuff for them and is not like constant blood sport.

58:07 I hope.

58:08 Mhm.

58:09 There's been reporting about how Trump's trying

58:12 to like back off on ICE in cities, try to make things more about uh well,

58:17 he can't make it about the economy right now, but more about culture war issues,

58:20 try to kind of throw out the the the pocket glitter arguments

58:23 that he did with uh uh trans people before the last election.

58:27 And it has been interesting seeing Democrats messaging evolve on that.

58:30 It does So far it feels like publicly uh it

58:34 seems like Platner's positioning of it's billionaires trying to distract

58:39 you while they're exploiting you and not caring about

58:42 and then bringing it back to to to table issues.

58:45 Uh I mean after watching the the Platner clip where he was like,

58:48 "This is pretty much an almost non-issue here.

58:51 It's like maybe there's been two instances.

58:53 I looked at Georgia." And it was like the I

58:56 think it was the number one thing on the Republican agenda,

58:59 but I think at the time it was signed, there was zero or maybe one instance Wow.

59:04 that would have been impacted and it I think

59:08 that that messaging is really interesting of they're trying

59:10 to make you scared of this this group that doesn't

59:13 have the numbers to really speak up for themselves.

59:15 Uh and it's all it's all a game.

59:17 So, I Did you see any messaging like that that you

59:20 think is a a winner going into the midterms going into 2028?

59:23 I I think what you're describing is so important,

59:25 which is you like have to tell people a story

59:27 and describe for them a villain or an obstacle

59:30 with a motivation and that kind of like that's how

59:33 you expose the game that is being played because yes,

59:36 the fact that Donald Trump talks about

59:38 nothing except uh trans athletes in sports

59:41 and in to the point where his like signature

59:44 voter suppression legislation the Save Act now has a bunch

59:47 of anti-trans components in it uh for absolutely

59:50 no reason and I think like it's like it's just key I think to helping people

59:55 understand like this is what they're trying to do.

59:57 They're distracting you.

59:57 It's part of the game and like that's why they're doing it.

59:59 I I do think like what Platoner is doing uh is very important.

1:00:03 Now that said I think Democrats sometimes think that we

1:00:07 can just not talk about issues and they'll go away.

1:00:10 I think you saw that a lot in immigration this last cycle.

1:00:12 was going to say the border.

1:00:13 Yeah, the border and it's like you know what?

1:00:15 Back to your question earlier of like

1:00:16 what is something that Democrats really screwed up?

1:00:18 The border.

1:00:19 Um people want a border that feels safe and secure.

1:00:23 They want immigration laws and rules that feel uh rational uh

1:00:28 and fair and like people are rewarded for doing the right

1:00:30 thing and not the wrong thing and I think like we

1:00:33 got to get back to kind of the Obama era immigration policies.

1:00:36 Like similarly, I think around COVID um there

1:00:40 was too much kind of like public shaming or uh lockdowns went on too long uh

1:00:48 and were not necessarily based on evidence even

1:00:50 though we were holding ourselves up to be

1:00:51 the kind of science-based evidence-based party and we

1:00:54 need to kind of just I think do some reflecting on how uh we screwed that up.

1:00:58 Right now, if we're not talking necessarily about politicians,

1:01:02 but if we're talking about political media,

1:01:04 who's who's doing a better job right now, left or right?

1:01:07 The right I think just dominates.

1:01:09 Um when you look at where the audience is, right?

1:01:13 I mean Fox News blots out the sun when it comes to cable.

1:01:18 Uh I think a lot of the biggest conservative

1:01:21 voices on YouTube or on uh podcasting are conservative.

1:01:25 Like I don't know about you, but when I look at the charts and I

1:01:27 see Candace Owens kicking my ass on the podcast charts,

1:01:30 I start to wonder what's going on.

1:01:33 What am I doing wrong?

1:01:34 You might be getting sued less, though.

1:01:35 Yeah, that's [laughter] true.

1:01:37 I should I got to work on that that series

1:01:39 on how Keir Starmer's wife has a dick.

1:01:43 Tucker Carlson has clearly found something.

1:01:47 Right, so I think I think they are they're winning.

1:01:51 I don't that necessarily think it's better.

1:01:52 Now that said, I think it's very cool this sort

1:01:55 of modern iteration of media that people like you,

1:01:57 I mean you've been you've been doing this you

1:01:59 kind of paved the way for a lot of us,

1:02:01 but like, you know, that a crooked media can exist,

1:02:03 The Bulwark can exist, The Taeo can exist, Hasan[ __] can exist, right?

1:02:07 There could be all these different flavors of progressivism up and down

1:02:11 the spectrum can have their own little niche and people can find them.

1:02:13 I think that's great.

1:02:14 Yeah, I mean and the fact that there's a a million places.

1:02:17 I'm like I'm like the last person to to get on Substack the week

1:02:21 that we're recording this and I was just like, oh, I love this.

1:02:24 This is like this is a dream.

1:02:26 Do you like writing?

1:02:28 Yes.

1:02:28 I've always liked writing.

1:02:29 It gives me a thing,

1:02:31 but a lot of what where I what I will really really enjoy is yeah,

1:02:35 starting I'm trying to carve out the time, but the ability to do like a a weekly

1:02:39 newsletter so that it's not just me you know,

1:02:43 reformatting a script that I'm doing for the show and it's like a paired piece,

1:02:47 like something that's a little more thoughtful.

1:02:49 That's That's what excites me.

1:02:50 Also, I mean even the notes feature that sounds

1:02:55 [snorts] I'm doing a[ __] Substack ad for them.

1:02:59 But no, like even notes, like I'm like, oh,

1:03:00 a place that it doesn't feel like a health site.

1:03:04 Like I used to love I used to love

1:03:06 Twitter when check marks allowed me to go like,

1:03:09 okay, this person there's like an 80% chance I can trust them.

1:03:14 [laughter] Like I obviously I got to be like a healthy

1:03:15 amount of skeptical and now it's So I don't

1:03:17 like I I go over there every now and then if I want to kick a kick a bee's nest,

1:03:22 but that's about it.

1:03:23 Yeah, I never left.

1:03:24 I just couldn't do it.

1:03:25 And I'll be honest with you like people like

1:03:27 that's smart from like what you're trying to accomplish,

1:03:29 but from for me it's it it has drastically changed.

1:03:34 I think around the time that I still used it,

1:03:36 it was around the time that I like I still wanted everyone to like me.

1:03:40 It was like cuz I'm I was you know, I was like the biggest[ __] fence sitter

1:03:43 in the world for the first 12 years of my career.

1:03:46 I thought I was some enlightened centrist and you know, it was just like oh no,

1:03:49 that's just you're just being a coward because you like big view numbers.

1:03:53 Uh but now and so now it impacts me less cuz I'm like oh

1:03:56 a lot of the people that are hitting me I just don't like anyway.

1:03:59 So this is fine.

1:03:59 This is this is a fight rather than I'm getting hit

1:04:01 in the back of the head by people I thought were friends.

1:04:03 Isn't that funny how it works?

1:04:04 Like there are people who have hated me and are

1:04:06 conservatives and have called me like Tayron Tommy or the van

1:04:09 driver idiot from the right wing like for a decade

1:04:11 and I just could not care less what they say.

1:04:13 But someone when someone from the left attacks you

1:04:15 or someone like sort of who you respect or you know,

1:04:18 you're sort of like in your social circles they go after you,

1:04:21 it feels really bad and it will grind at you.

1:04:23 And I frankly that's like why I never joined

1:04:26 Blue Sky cuz it just felt like a place where

1:04:28 it was like left on more left violence all

1:04:32 the time and I just I want no part of that.

1:04:34 Yeah, I mean you mentioning that it makes me feel like oh no,

1:04:38 a buddy of mine Daniel Sloss said something recently that I was like oh,

1:04:41 I feel like this is you're saying it better than like oh,

1:04:43 the virtue signal Olympics where it was like trying to be

1:04:46 a good person on the left I'm paraphrasing or quoting him.

1:04:50 Trying to be a good person on the left is like trying to speak French in Paris.

1:04:55 It is the least rewarding experience.

1:04:57 It's it feels like you're surrounded by people that are prepped for you to fail,

1:05:02 not to do a good job,

1:05:03 and some even excited at the prospect of how you're going to fail.

1:05:07 And meanwhile meanwhile like you know,

1:05:10 you on the right Like they they have fights now.

1:05:13 Like, we can't we can't act like it.

1:05:15 It's it's pretty uh vocal.

1:05:16 A lot of it's about Israel, but uh it's Yeah,

1:05:21 it's a it's just a different different world.

1:05:23 But, I was like, but I don't want it Still,

1:05:25 I'm I'm never I've never been at a place where I was like,

1:05:27 that's so annoying, I'm going to be like, yeah, fascism works.

1:05:31 No.

1:05:31 No, that's right.

1:05:32 Yeah.

1:05:32 [laughter] I I I Yes, cruelty is the answer.

1:05:35 It's like, no, okay, I'm just going to[ __] back away from this conversation.

1:05:37 [laughter] I can't imagine getting trolled into just

1:05:40 wanting to live in a fascist police state.

1:05:41 Yeah, that that is That is a bright red line for me, too.

1:05:45 But, I mean, and I will say I'm I'm

1:05:46 oversimplifying cuz there there are people that are like,

1:05:48 okay, well, if I'm getting jumped on, I want to have some sense of community.

1:05:52 And especially if that community is saying,[

1:05:54 __] those people that were messing with me.

1:05:56 So, I see, especially like the canceled pipeline, how that happens.

1:06:00 Uh but, yeah, it's a it's an interesting it's an interesting dynamic.

1:06:03 And but, this is a thing that I that that kind of came up is

1:06:07 there are a lot of people on the right that think the left doesn't in-fight.

1:06:09 And then there's a lot of people

1:06:10 on the left that don't think the right in-fights.

1:06:11 And I'm like, I think it's just the algorithms

1:06:13 that are making it so that we don't see this.

1:06:15 Yeah, you you'll hear Trump say this all the time.

1:06:17 He'll be like, oh, the left we never do this, you know,

1:06:19 Democrats stick together and Republicans attack each other.

1:06:22 And then people on the left say the exact opposite,

1:06:24 which is we always fight and Republicans always get in line.

1:06:26 It's like everyone's both parties are full of people

1:06:29 with differing opinions who fight like children because that's what happens.

1:06:33 They jockey for power.

1:06:35 I do have to ask you before we as as we start to wind things down.

1:06:39 Um [laughter] You kind of referenced it with with Candace, but not directly.

1:06:43 Uh Macron, right?

1:06:44 Is in uh you know, last year as president of France.

1:06:48 Uh he's, you know, the the last internationalist neoliberal on the global stage.

1:06:52 Uh you know, Trudeau, Obama, Merkel, Cameron, the list goes on.

1:06:56 It's going to be an end of an era for the West.

1:06:58 So, do you think we are losing more than we're gaining?

1:07:02 So, I've been very worried about um European elections coming

1:07:07 up because there's a bunch of big elections in Germany

1:07:09 in 2026 and there's a very scary right-wing neo-Nazi party

1:07:12 called the AfD in Germany and they have been ascendant.

1:07:16 And then in 2027 there are going

1:07:19 to be French presidential elections and the French

1:07:21 presidency is very powerful and Emmanuel Macron is

1:07:25 um he he like came out of nowhere,

1:07:27 he created his own party and he is about to be term limited

1:07:30 out as you said and has done nothing to figure out his heir apparent.

1:07:34 And there was a lot of fear that the far right,

1:07:37 the National Rally party in France either a woman in Marine Le

1:07:40 Pen or this guy Jordan Bardella could become the president of France.

1:07:45 And if we had a far right leader

1:07:46 of France and a far right leadership in Germany,

1:07:49 I don't have to tell you all the ways that that could go badly.

1:07:51 We've we've seen that movie before.

1:07:53 So I I'm I'm worried about Macron leaving.

1:07:57 I'm worried about the rise of populism in particular on the far right.

1:08:03 The only good news is interestingly the only thing that has seemed

1:08:07 to have managed to arrest the rise of the far right in Europe

1:08:10 has been Donald Trump because he started

1:08:12 threatening to invade Greenland and that didn't

1:08:15 go over well in Denmark where they just had a snap election.

1:08:19 [laughter] He's a great unifier for other countries.

1:08:21 Yes, he is.

1:08:22 Hopefully he'll be a problem for Viktor Orbán and in Hungary.

1:08:26 Um so we'll see.

1:08:27 Fingers are crossed.

1:08:29 Um but uh when I look at what's happening in Iran

1:08:33 and the potential spike in energy prices over the long term,

1:08:37 uh the possible migration flows you could see out of Iran into you know,

1:08:41 Europe and all over the place.

1:08:44 Um those are the kinds of things that fueled

1:08:46 the far right last decade um after Syria, after Afghanistan, etc.

1:08:51 So I'm I'm anxious at the same time.

1:08:53 I hope that answered the question.

1:08:55 No, it does.

1:08:55 But I mean I guess connected to that, you know,

1:08:56 like what do you think the next version of the West is is to be?

1:09:00 Like is it Do you think that it's going to be divided, at war with itself?

1:09:04 Do you think like a a new leader will emerge?

1:09:06 And part of that like I'm thinking of because

1:09:09 a number of the people that we're talking about,

1:09:10 relatively, they're mostly young leaders, right?

1:09:13 Uh but their their replacements, for the most part, are a lot of older people.

1:09:17 Not not universally, but I mean,

1:09:20 what do you What do you think like the next version of the West is?

1:09:23 Man, that is like the key question because I think the only person who

1:09:27 started to try to sketch out what that might look like is Mark Carney,

1:09:32 uh the Prime Minister of Canada.

1:09:33 He talked about this need for like middle powers to band

1:09:37 together and sort of like throw their collective economic weight

1:09:41 and military might together and and use it to sort

1:09:43 of push back on the US uh and push back on China.

1:09:47 Um now, he gave this That speech was in Davos when like a few months ago.

1:09:52 He hasn't really like he sort of threw out the concept

1:09:54 of this middle powers unity at the at at Davos,

1:09:57 but like they haven't done anything yet, right?

1:09:59 Like Mark Carney has not been leading a coalition to push

1:10:02 back on Trump to prevent the war in Iran, for example.

1:10:05 So, I think everyone's in wait-and-see mode.

1:10:07 I think the challenge for the world, the West,

1:10:11 is the US is just far and away the biggest economy,

1:10:16 the biggest military power, um and has been kind of the leader for so long.

1:10:21 And um they know that Donald Trump will not be around forever,

1:10:26 but I think they feel pretty burned after watching him come back again,

1:10:30 and they're worried about JD Vance and Trumpism

1:10:33 and what it might mean for this long-term trajectory,

1:10:35 and they're feeling squeezed between uh the US kind of seeming crazy,

1:10:40 and then the rise of China,

1:10:42 and then of course the Russians in their own backyard uh

1:10:45 invading Ukraine and all the territorial expansion that we're seeing from Putin.

1:10:50 So, I think, you know, everyone's in just a bit of a a wait-and-see mode while

1:10:54 feeling like we can't just go back to the way things were.

1:10:57 It's never going to be like the US and NATO.

1:11:00 No, well, I was I was going to say I, you know,

1:11:02 I I love this country and everything that it can be,

1:11:04 but if you're another country, I don't know how you could ever trust us.

1:11:07 Like I it if [clears throat] if we are able to have and I moving forward as if

1:11:12 we are and we need we need to be

1:11:14 prepped for all the the[ __] that can be pulled,

1:11:16 but if we are going to be a country

1:11:18 that continues to have free and fair elections,

1:11:19 I also still think we're in a place when we look

1:11:22 at the the median voter and I say this like with all respect that because,

1:11:26 you know, lives are busy and you can only pay attention so much and, you know,

1:11:29 we live and breathe this, but that it feels like we're going to have

1:11:33 a different party leading every four years

1:11:35 or at least a different person in the presidency.

1:11:37 I I don't know how many eight-year presidents

1:11:41 we'll have at least in the the short term

1:11:44 and so then connected to because I think

1:11:46 that the population a lot of the stuff right we're

1:11:49 seeing with Trump it's going to have impacts

1:11:51 for a long time that then if you had

1:11:53 a Democratic president that they're going to be blamed

1:11:54 for a number of things not improving it enough, especially if you know,

1:11:58 they don't make bold moves in Congress if they even have those seats and then if

1:12:04 you're another country you know that every four

1:12:06 years it's like the contracts just get ripped up.

1:12:09 Uh yes.

1:12:09 I mean, look, imagine like from uh look from Canada to Iran, right?

1:12:14 The Canadians like Donald Trump was attacking them over the USMCA agreement,

1:12:17 which is the revised NAFTA agreement that Jared Kushner,

1:12:20 his son-in-law, negotiated and Trump was mad about it.

1:12:22 It's like, "Oh, what did he have to do

1:12:23 this?" And then you have the Iranians who are being asked to cut a deal with uh

1:12:28 the United States after Trump pulled out of the JCPOA, the Iran nuclear deal,

1:12:31 when they were abiding by it uh when he used uh talks last year

1:12:36 as a sort of subterfuge to begin

1:12:38 a bombing campaign with the Israelis against Iran.

1:12:40 And then again this time we're engaged with talks

1:12:43 with Iran and then Trump started bombing them.

1:12:45 And now they're like asked to come to the table

1:12:47 again and figure out some sort of ceasefire and an agreement.

1:12:49 It's like the the lack the level of trust is just gone.

1:12:53 And then, you know, Trump's[ __] on NATO and blaming

1:12:55 them for not getting the Strait of Hormuz unstuck,

1:12:57 but just a few months ago was threatening to invade Greenland.

1:13:00 So, we just seem like we we seem not just unreliable,

1:13:03 but kind of aggressively, you know, unhelpful.

1:13:07 Because uh this is like this is our return to season 2,

1:13:10 I do I do have a question of I had fun with this podcast.

1:13:15 But, I've also had bad podcasts.

1:13:17 Do you have a worst podcast you've ever

1:13:20 done or worst interview that you've ever done?

1:13:22 So, back in the early days of doing Pod Save the World,

1:13:25 it was I would I would book a guest,

1:13:27 and that guest was my whole show for that week.

1:13:30 And if I didn't get it, I didn't have a show.

1:13:32 Uh and I remember booking a guy who'd written

1:13:34 who was a journalist who I knew very well,

1:13:35 a nice guy, um who'd written a really interesting story.

1:13:38 I'm trying to fuzz up the details here cuz I don't want to be a dick.

1:13:41 Um it turned out [laughter]

1:13:44 this guy was the worst on-mic communicator I'd ever heard in my life,

1:13:49 and on top of that had like an absolutely

1:13:52 devastating fever or cold or like the flu or something.

1:13:57 So, not only could he not talk uh in a normal day,

1:14:01 but was sneezing so much and coughing and losing his train of thought cuz

1:14:04 he hadn't slept that it was like the most incoherent conversation I've ever had,

1:14:07 and we had to just scrap the whole week.

1:14:09 And I don't even remember what we did, but it was um it was brutal

1:14:12 because you know those conversations where minute one,

1:14:16 you know this is a[ __] train wreck, and then you're there for another hour?

1:14:19 It was that.

1:14:22 And then I got sick.

1:14:25 [laughter] Well, I'm glad that didn't happen here.

1:14:27 Tommy, thank you so much for the time, man.

1:14:28 Thank you for having me.

1:14:29 This is very fun.

1:14:30 Uh great to see you.