The Absurdity of Being a Human Being | Reggie Watts

0:00 We're creating our relationship to reality every nanosecond that we're alive.

0:04 We're always creating.

0:05 I think the most important thing is not to get better at creating,

0:08 it's getting better at allowing yourself [music]

0:10 to view yourself as a creative entity.

0:13 I'm just curious like how do you think

0:15 [music] people can realize the artist inside of them?

0:17 Some people are like I'm not good at anything

0:19 or I'm not an artist and stuff like that.

0:20 I'm like that's not true.

0:21 There's so many things that we do.

0:22 You could like make a smoothie really well.

0:24 Not compartmentalize and say I'm good at this, not good at this.

0:27 It's like well, that's only as true as you want to believe.

0:29 These dark times are here for a reason [music]

0:31 and those reminders are the things that keep you going.

0:33 This reality is a Muppet reality.

0:35 It's just a bunch of goofiness.

0:36 It's all silly.

0:37 Even if it gets really dark, [music] it's still weird and that's what I love.

0:41 Everything turns into a game at that point.

0:43 Like fighting for fun.

0:45 And I think recognize yourself in others.

0:48 There's a phrase that I wrote on a t-shirt, when in doubt zoom [music] out.

0:51 Like it's that zoomed out perspective that gives us context for how

0:54 ridiculous it is that you even exist in this moment right now.

1:04 Reggie, my man.

1:05 Hello.

1:07 Laughter is a moment of instantaneous enlightenment.

1:11 Mhm.

1:12 How do you say that?

1:13 Say more.

1:14 Yeah.

1:15 Well, I mean you know,

1:17 it's like it's this is kind of like realization that uh uh you know,

1:22 like what makes people laugh and what triggers laughter and um and I just

1:27 kind of realized that all humor is essentially it's uh working off a paradox.

1:33 So, you're setting up an expectation, you're subverting the expectation.

1:37 And in the annihilation of the two things um and you know,

1:43 the creation of all things.

1:44 But like the when that hits in that moment,

1:46 it triggers a response from people and the response

1:49 is like this instantaneous awareness of you know,

1:55 I mean for lack of a better term like everyone's divinity

1:58 or the or or what I like to call the absurdity of life.

2:01 And so, it just kind of flashes and people react and they laugh,

2:04 you know, cuz they're like remembering essentially.

2:06 So, in that moment I always think of it as instantaneous enlightenment.

2:10 And there's different levels of laughter.

2:12 There's kinds of gradients,

2:14 but like in general like when people really get it and there's a big moment,

2:17 it's like that feels like everyone's on exactly on the same page no

2:21 matter what they think or what they believe in and it's it's beautiful.

2:26 It seems like because that's the case,

2:28 you can say things through comedy you otherwise can't often, you know,

2:32 and how it like laughter as you the way

2:34 you're describing it like it kind of cracks the character,

2:37 our ideological identities and whatnot.

2:40 Um I'm just curious your thoughts on like your journey

2:43 over the years being able to and throughout like uh just

2:48 the capacity comedy has to be able to see those insights

2:52 and kind of push at the boundaries of people's identities.

2:56 Yeah.

2:57 Yeah, for sure.

2:58 Well, I mean comedy is like uh you know,

3:01 comedy specifically absurdity, I mean all comedy,

3:04 but absurdity for me is kind of another level

3:09 in the sense that it not only unveils the Well,

3:13 I think it unveils the true nature of reality.

3:17 So, whatever is being talked about, whatever the subject matter is,

3:22 you're not only revealing what it is, but you're also dismantling what it is.

3:27 And and in meaning meaning that like um you

3:32 are kind of like you're commenting on what it is,

3:35 but then you're also reminding people that ultimately everything is nothing.

3:39 And uh and everything.

3:41 Like everything is paradox essentially.

3:43 Like reality is paradox.

3:45 Paradox is the engine of this reality.

3:47 So, uh you know, so you're kind of like diving into that and then

3:50 you're kind of like showing like not only is this cup a cup,

3:53 [snorts] but also this cup is made

3:55 of subatomic particles that essentially are that don't exist,

3:59 but do exist simultaneously.

4:01 You know, like that type of[ __] or whatever.

4:02 So, um so the commentary So,

4:04 to me absurdity like Salvador Dalí and you know, these kind of uh you know,

4:08 visual artists or video artists uh and they they kind of break apart

4:12 the notion of what is reality or even AI generated video um you know,

4:16 there's a guy called Doopy Doo um on Instagram.

4:20 Brilliant Russian um video artist, hyper surreal,

4:25 but like it looks all the characters look very hyper real,

4:27 but like super dream core.

4:30 And the way that things transform and morph and things

4:33 things of that nature are very um you know,

4:36 it's like what we see in the dream state

4:38 or like dream logic and and but seeing it so crisp and so clear um is so jarring

4:45 cuz it like uh this is this looks like reality,

4:48 but also this is in a way like how I

4:50 wish reality looked in my waking life or something like that.

4:56 Yeah.

4:56 It's uh I'm curious to to hear your more

4:58 to hear more of your thoughts around absurdity,

5:01 realizing the absurdity of like the human experience.

5:04 Uh it feels like either through contemplation,

5:08 meditation, psychedelic experience, lived experience,

5:11 you kind of see the inherent paradoxical nature of of life

5:14 like you're speaking to and one but can only laugh

5:17 and it also like and I feel like the more

5:22 you realize how there are always many sides to one thing,

5:25 like the more loosely I feel like I personally hold all things.

5:31 Yes.

5:32 Which I think allows you to approach things with like uh being able

5:35 to connect them instead of through your ideas of them in a sense.

5:39 Yeah, yeah.

5:39 Well, you you don't have to take things as as face value.

5:42 I mean I think the face value part of reality

5:44 is like just a kind of function to get through.

5:47 You like if you need to go to the store, it's like you need to you know,

5:50 use a road and you know,

5:52 get in a car and what whatever or however you get there.

5:54 But like um there's kind of like a functional

5:57 practical nature of just like accepting things at face value.

6:00 But like but ultimately when we when we really contemplate existence,

6:04 things like that, all the things that we do take for granted,

6:07 then you start to reformat and question like do I have to think of it

6:12 this way or like or why do I think of it this way or you know,

6:15 every time someone says this or every time I see this, I always think this.

6:18 That's an interesting That's interesting.

6:20 Why is that?

6:21 You know, and so I think uh questioning reality, you know, bumper sticker,

6:25 but like um you know,

6:28 it's it's uh it's kind of like it's the bonus of being alive.

6:33 Like you you you kind of realize you can ask

6:35 these questions and that you can at any given point.

6:38 It's not a it's not a moment, you know,

6:40 like last night I was talking with some friends.

6:42 Like, you know, I was like you don't need to designate a time to meditate.

6:46 You don't need to designate a time to be thoughtful and you don't need to it's

6:51 like this can happen at any time and it can and it's happening all the time.

6:54 So, just it's up to you what when you want to notice these things.

6:57 But the more that you do,

6:59 the more that you you feel like you're awake in a dream, you know,

7:02 and that feeling is incredible because then you start to you start to notice

7:06 synchronicities and things start to line up and things that um you know,

7:10 you may have thought of many many many ages ago,

7:13 you know, suddenly manifest and you know,

7:16 as it's just like reality changes in that in that as opposed

7:18 to like just kind of playing it like it's on rails.

7:21 Yeah.

7:23 What do you What is the difference for you

7:25 for like the insight that's gained through like

7:27 self-reflection and how you can know yourself through

7:29 that the versus creation cuz you're like a multi-talented artist

7:35 that can feels like go into so many different

7:37 arenas of human expression and super inspiring and uh

7:42 an incredible and you're also somebody who I know

7:45 likes to question reality and contemplate the nature of existence.

7:48 So, I'm just curious about your thoughts on the interplay between the two.

7:52 Yeah, I mean I mean yeah, it's weird.

7:55 It's like you know, what's so within you know,

7:57 so without, you know, is kind of the vibe.

8:00 Um you know, it's like well,

8:03 I mean self-realization or self-contemplation are you know,

8:07 functions similarly to how like physics talks about you know,

8:10 spooky action or um you know, sp- spooky action at at a distance or um you know,

8:17 the fact that particles can be shared they can be completely interlinked,

8:21 you know, across millions and millions and millions of light years,

8:25 you know, that these particles are connected independent of space

8:29 and they mirror each other and that's how quantum computing functions.

8:32 And so, that idea is really interesting because then you're like well,

8:36 as I contemplate my own self and my own existence,

8:40 as I'm doing so, it's also affecting the outside you know,

8:44 world all all around me because ultimately everything boils down to perception

8:48 and perception there is no there's no difference between out there

8:54 and in here when what you're perceiving is what you're perceiving

8:56 and that is the only intersection of all the sensors that we have,

9:01 vision, smell and taste and you know, whatever you want to add on top of that.

9:05 Um but it's an intersection of localization of awareness, you know,

9:10 so you're like I'm in reality in this particular place.

9:13 But as we go within, everything changes,

9:16 the way that we perceive outwardly or outwardly, you know, as we're perceiving.

9:20 So, I think they're they're the same they're one in the same, you know.

9:25 It's it's uh yeah, I don't really think there is a difference.

9:28 You know, it's just like when people are like do you like music or comedy?

9:30 I'm like well, they're kind of both the same thing.

9:33 I'm curious how cuz you're it's probably one

9:36 of the highest compliments to say you're very hard to put

9:38 in a box or define as like what you do

9:41 because it's like far-reaching and and into so many different arenas.

9:45 Uh but how do you describe not just what you do,

9:49 but like what lights you up in most in life and what

9:51 you found yourself being drawn towards over the past few decades?

9:55 Mhm.

9:56 I mean you know, for me it's for me it's just being playful.

10:01 You know, I I'm always playing with reality, you know,

10:04 playing with friends and joking and reformatting things and calling

10:08 things not what they're supposed to be called and you know,

10:11 it's just all my life, you know,

10:13 I pretend I live on a starship cuz we do live on a starship.

10:15 But like, you know, it's uh it's the playful nature of things.

10:19 So, for me like getting on stage is not really or performing or whatever it is

10:24 or even recording it's I'm not really thinking

10:26 of it as um now I'm doing this, you know,

10:31 it's it's like now is it is more of attention on what I'm doing,

10:36 but it's not really.

10:37 It's like, you know, someone shines a light on what I'm already doing,

10:41 you know, in a sense.

10:42 Um and obviously it changes a little bit cuz I I know I'm on stage,

10:45 but like uh yeah, the yeah, it's weird.

10:50 It's like it's all um yeah, I just see it from the same thing.

10:55 Like I used to describe like creativity like

10:57 friends would be like, I want to do dance,

10:59 but I'm also into painting and you know, and I'm like,

11:02 well, why would you why would you choose between them?

11:05 You know, it's like you're the creative entity with a bunch of creative

11:09 tools all around you and you can rotate to any tool set,

11:13 grab them and start[ __] with them, you know,

11:16 like it doesn't but you're the center of it.

11:18 You're not like I'm only good at this and I'm only good at that.

11:21 It's like you are a creative individual and certain

11:24 tools resonate with you and certain tools don't,

11:26 you know, or certain tools that don't might in the future,

11:29 but if you view yourself as the center of it,

11:31 then you increase the likelihood of having access to more tools.

11:34 Yeah.

11:36 Yeah, I love the quote from Alan Watts that says uh the secret of life

11:41 is to be completely engaged with what you're

11:42 doing and and instead of calling it work, you realize it's play.

11:46 Mhm.

11:47 Yes.

11:47 And Yeah.

11:49 it feels like it's just super on point with I guess your philosophy of how

11:52 you approach life and how you like live life through the philosophy of improv.

11:59 I'm curious how yeah, what your thoughts are on like how improv has

12:03 changed your philosophy in in the way you approach living.

12:06 Mhm.

12:07 I mean, yeah, it's it's it's kind of everything, you know,

12:10 improv is like cuz I I started realizing like even you know,

12:13 the way you're going to get up from a chair or you know,

12:15 the you know, you like deciding to like go over and turn on a light

12:20 switch or pick up a pencil or a pen or something like that.

12:22 Like it's all improvisation at the end of the day

12:26 even though you've done it a million times.

12:27 It's like your your body whether no matter how conscious of it you are or not,

12:32 it's like you are still because it's because we're living

12:36 in time and time moves forward and everything is different even though,

12:40 you know, it has the appearance of doing the same thing daily.

12:42 It's never the same cuz it's time has changed, you know,

12:45 so um you know, so for me I improvisation is happening all the time.

12:51 So so it means that anytime I'm doing anything

12:54 I can choose how I'm going to go about it,

12:57 you know, whether it's opening the my car the door handle, you know, like oh,

13:01 maybe I'm going to open it with my other hand or I'll try getting into the car

13:05 a different way or I'll try grabbing this can in a weird way or you know,

13:09 I'm going to throw this pencil in the air and then I'm going to try

13:11 to catch it behind my back and then I'm going to start writing my thing,

13:13 you know, whatever it is.

13:14 Everything turns into a game at that point and and in doing so like

13:18 it just increases the fantasticness of life and harder to get down that way.

13:23 Like like like I mean, truly down like where you really [snorts]

13:27 believe you have limited options, things like that.

13:29 This is just kind of coming to me now as a as a thought like the way I'm kind

13:34 of thinking of improv or like this way sort

13:38 of of of living is like one there's just like

13:40 a playful way to like be spontaneous in the moment

13:43 and do something that's a pattern interrupt to how you've

13:45 like typically done things and like the way that you

13:48 do and act is tied to the way you think.

13:50 Uh but then there's also like cultivating a skill so then you can

13:55 get rid of the knowledge of the theory and then be in the music.

13:58 Mhm.

13:58 You know, like the levels of learning which I'm sure you're familiar

14:01 with of like starting with unconscious incompetence where you like you don't

14:06 even know that you don't know and then you have conscious incompetence

14:09 so like you know that you don't know how to tie the shoes,

14:12 how to play the scale, whatever.

14:14 And then you have this conscious competence where like you can do the thing,

14:17 but it takes conscious effort to be present with it and to really do it.

14:20 And then the last step is unconscious competence where

14:24 you can completely forget about the theory and the skills

14:27 that you've learned on the piano for example

14:30 and then you can really like flow and have range.

14:34 I'm curious how you cuz I know your background in studying jazz

14:37 in college and your music background uh like how you think about

14:41 that tension of like doing the work to then be able

14:44 to throw away the theory in sense and then play from that space.

14:48 Yeah.

14:48 Yeah, I mean you know, it's it's funny as much as I love improvisation,

14:53 I'm definitely very glad that I learned classical you know,

14:57 I had classically trained you know, piano and violin and it's like I'm glad

15:00 I had those things because like, you know,

15:02 at a certain point I kind of broke off from it and I was like,

15:04 this isn't really working for me.

15:07 But um yeah, I mean it's like you got to learn the structure to realize

15:10 you never needed the structure in the first place, you know, in a way.

15:13 I mean, kind of.

15:14 But like um yeah, I mean that's the thing.

15:19 It's like if you become really good at one thing

15:22 and you get good at it to the point at which it

15:24 feels like like it's a form of expression that you don't

15:27 think about like speaking in a conversation and it's like that fluid.

15:31 Like you that can be applied to every single thing in your life,

15:35 you know, like even something that you don't know how to do.

15:37 There's a weird like you can kind of inhabit the um

15:42 the embodiment and the resonance that you have with something else,

15:45 you can actually kind of turn turn that to another thing.

15:49 Not to say that like you can suddenly become a gymna- a gymnast,

15:52 you know, and you know,

15:53 you're really good at like calligraphy or something like that.

15:56 But um there is like an aspect of it

15:59 that can kind of accelerate your understanding of something,

16:01 you know, if you come into that.

16:03 You're like, oh no, this is how is this related to what I'm really great at.

16:07 Um and I think that [sighs and gasps]

16:09 that's kind of an interesting thing to to notice.

16:11 But yeah, I mean, essentially the the surfing feeling.

16:14 That's that's I I like that analogy because you know,

16:18 it's like surfing is a great analogy because it's like,

16:20 well, you're you're in nature and you're uh you're

16:26 empathizing and sympathizing and synergizing with the forces of nature,

16:29 but it's not just you, there's a device that you're on and the device

16:33 is the surfboard and or whatever boogie board,

16:36 whatever the[ __] but anyways, surfboard.

16:38 You're on the surfboard and the surfboard is an idea.

16:41 It's something that has that we came up with collectively a long,

16:44 long time ago and you know, the Hawaiians or whoever it was,

16:46 you know, it's like they were like, oh, if I take this stick and oh,

16:49 I can stand oh[ __] I can stand on the stick.

16:51 Um it's like, yeah, and I can and once you're on the stick,

16:53 you know, whatever, the evolution of that.

16:55 But [snorts] the meta- I'm sure it happened just like that.

16:58 Yeah, oh, yeah, I'm [laughter] sure it did.

16:59 They're just like, dude, and they're just like, oh, that's pretty cool.

17:01 They're like, how can I do it?

17:02 Oh, no, it's kind of like this and they're like,

17:03 oh, look what I I just figured it out.

17:05 __] now they're oh,[ __] Now I'm going to start doing you know,

17:08 it's like this is ours.

17:09 It's like, no, it's it's ours, too.

17:10 But um you know what I mean?

17:12 I mean, I'm sure it came from probably just like sharks,

17:14 you know, cuz you get sharks surf, you know,

17:16 like there's always those pictures of like sharks like surfing

17:19 which is just crazy to me that like they're like,

17:21 yeah, but they're just killing machines.

17:22 It's like, nah, there's something in there.

17:25 They they like to have fun.

17:27 [laughter] Um sure, they're hungry all the time, but they do like to have fun.

17:29 No, but you know, it's like we observe nature and then we're like,

17:32 but I think like that idea of uh the the the experience of surfing

17:40 which is that flow state that people talk about where some people are like,

17:44 I'm not good at anything or I'm not an artist and stuff like that.

17:46 I'm like, that's not true.

17:47 There's like plenty of things that we do.

17:48 You could like make a smoothie really well or you can make a cup

17:51 of coffee really well and that artistry

17:53 and and and um awareness that goes into that.

17:57 It's like again, you can apply that.

17:59 It's scalable so you can apply that to other things

18:01 in your life and and and not compartmentalize and say,

18:04 I'm good at this, not good at this.

18:06 It's like, well, that's only as true as you want it to be.

18:09 Mhm.

18:09 So, I think um yeah, improvisation it's like once you experience the flow state,

18:15 you can start experiencing the flow state in all things.

18:18 Even when you're watching people in their flow states.

18:20 Like when I love seeing contemporary dance, you know,

18:23 and you see these dancers that have trained all of their lives

18:25 and they're performing this piece choreographed

18:28 by this choreographer who has a vision,

18:29 you know, and like the dancers are expressing that vision.

18:32 And the movement that they're experience you you feel like the movement.

18:36 You know, it's like what why people like sports, you know,

18:38 like they're they they embody the movements of what they're watching

18:43 and that gives them the sense of action and drama and liberation,

18:47 you know, or disappointment sometimes, but whatever.

18:50 But you you you you kind of become it and so that's kind

18:54 of the the the flow state is like that's how I like to look at it.

18:57 So, if I'm when I'm observing something like that, I can use that.

19:01 It doesn't mean I have to be good at the thing necessarily,

19:03 but I can I can understand what it would feel like.

19:07 Yeah.

19:07 Yeah, I'm thinking of everyone who's listening right now who some,

19:10 you know, to varying degrees,

19:11 I'm sure there's a spectrum of people who feel like they have

19:13 the natural proclivity towards the traditional forms of of of the arts.

19:18 Uh but it's cool cuz you're you're kind

19:21 of describing being an artist as like the intention

19:26 and attention you bring to something and the way

19:27 you do something not even just like what it is.

19:30 So, like how I'm just curious like how do you think people can

19:33 become and realize the artist inside of them in in everything they do.

19:39 Yeah, I mean, I guess one thing is like

19:41 I'm not a big fan of people compartmentalizing saying like,

19:44 I'm not an artist or you know, it's like, I'm a creative, you know, or whatever,

19:47 you know, it's like capitalist terms or whatever,

19:49 but like um everybody's an artist, you know, it's like we're all creative.

19:53 That's all we're doing is creating.

19:55 You know, even like we're creating our relationship

19:58 to reality every nanosecond that we're alive,

20:00 you know, it's like so we're always creating.

20:03 And I think when you decide that you are creating,

20:07 I guess, when you you're like, "Now I'm creating." You know, whatever.

20:10 It's like, "Oh, now I'm on the clock.

20:12 I'm creating now." But, um, you know, yeah,

20:14 for I mean I I I really do try to encourage that in other people, you know,

20:19 like when they're like, "Oh,

20:19 I'm not really good at this or I'm good at that." I was like,

20:21 "Yeah, yeah, but you're a carpenter,

20:22 you know, like you you know, you do finish it." He's like,

20:24 "Yeah, but I'm not really I'm not sculpting." I was like,

20:26 "Yeah, but you're installing cabinetry and it's like looks amazing, you know,

20:30 and there's a craftsman." People are like, "Yeah, but that's a craft.

20:33 It's like it's not an art." It's like, "No, it's not true, man.

20:35 It's like you're creating everything.

20:37 Anything you're doing, anything you're making,

20:38 washing the dishes, you know." So, I So,

20:40 I try to encourage people to maintain um a larger awareness of what they are,

20:48 you know, as opposed to just limiting it and then compartmentalizing.

20:51 Cuz again, that's a capitalist mindset.

20:54 Like, I'm now I'm doing this, now I'm doing this, now I'm doing that.

20:57 Now I'm being creative.

20:58 I've assigned time for me to be creative now.

21:00 But, when I That's not happening.

21:01 I'm not creative now.

21:02 I now I'm just doing my work or whatever it is, you know.

21:05 But, but I think like um people who are questioning

21:08 their creativity or questioning whether they should spend more time creating,

21:12 you know, officially.

21:13 Um I I I think it's important I think

21:17 the most important thing is not to get better at creating,

21:20 it's getting better at allowing yourself to view yourself as a creative entity.

21:26 It's interesting because I I completely agree and it we live,

21:31 especially in western modern culture,

21:33 where the education system shapes us to sort of identify

21:37 with the intellect in a way where we like live

21:40 life often through our ideas of life and through like

21:43 our models of real reality instead of indirect experience of reality.

21:48 And like the psychological term

21:49 of like top-down versus bottom-up processing, right?

21:52 Like we see a bird and it's like it's a raven and like

21:55 we think we know what it is and then we stop experiencing the raven.

21:58 Yeah, right.

21:59 Oh, I love that.

22:00 Yeah.

22:00 Yeah.

22:01 So, yeah, I'm curious your thoughts on like to like

22:05 kind of return to more of that like bottom-up processing,

22:07 like experiencing life from a fresh place.

22:10 Um, you seem to do that extremely well.

22:15 Yeah, I mean, I hope so.

22:17 You know, I hope so.

22:18 Yeah, I don't I don't like that feeling of like knowing like I know.

22:22 Yeah, yeah.

22:23 You know, like I I kind of have this weird like it rubs me the wrong way.

22:27 You know, like I'll definitely I'll have like

22:31 a thing where like I I understand what it is,

22:35 you know, but that's different than claiming absolute knowledge of it.

22:39 It's like I understand and when I'm saying I'm understanding,

22:42 it's not that I understand like all all the details necessarily.

22:47 It's that I I understand the feeling of the result

22:52 of whatever it is that that thing produces, right?

22:56 Even if it's just observing something and you're like, "What is that?" You know,

22:59 so I why I'm like always like, "Oh, what is that?" You know,

23:01 and I'm looking at all the things or I'm looking at the most mundane thing like

23:04 a a screwdriver that I've been looking at for I've

23:08 had in my toolbox for a long time.

23:10 And then finally one day I just go, "You know what?

23:12 I'm going to check this out." And then you I

23:15 look at the little fine print of like the company,

23:17 what it's made of and it's like, "Oh,

23:18 and then they put like the size of the tool over here.

23:21 Oh, that's cool." And then the back of it, "Oh, and it's rounded.

23:23 Why is it round?

23:24 Oh, it's rounded because oh, you can get Oh,

23:26 this hex tool it's like got like a little

23:27 ball thing with like a missing like ring of metal.

23:29 Oh, it's because you can actually loosen or tighten it an angle." It's like,

23:33 "Oh, that's why that is." You know what I mean?

23:35 Like I love doing those having those moments

23:37 where I take the face value things that I'm

23:40 using every day or I see every day and I just kind of stop and go,

23:44 "Actually, let me actually look at that." You know,

23:46 the camera that you use all the time that you stare

23:48 at all the time and then you just stop and you go like,

23:50 "Let me look at this thing." You're like, "Oh,[ __] Oh,

23:52 I never really Oh, there's a thing there." You know, whatever.

23:55 Because everything in life,

23:57 especially that's made by humans, essentially has a philosophy.

24:00 People designed it a certain way for a reason, even if it's fast and cheap.

24:03 Like, there's a function, but why did they decide to use these materials or why

24:07 is it this thick or why is it this thin or whatever.

24:09 So, I don't know if that answers the question, but but but yeah, I don't know.

24:14 That That's the fascination that I have

24:16 with trying to not take things for granted um

24:21 is a is a is a is a huge thing that's generally on my mind like operationally.

24:27 Yeah.

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25:44 Back to the show.

25:47 I've definitely thought quite a bit about like

25:51 I guess like it kind of sounds meta,

25:53 but like how does one get like intimate with life and instead

25:57 of like we were speaking to like living through our ideas

25:59 of it or our own prejudices and beliefs and infatuations and imaginations

26:05 and desires of who somebody is or or what life or reality is.

26:09 Um to like be able to pay attention and have perception open up like you

26:17 said instead of just the face value of what the form of the thing is,

26:21 to like experience more of what the essence of the thing is.

26:23 And and like the Buddhist yogic contemplative practices um have like uh kind

26:33 of like a road map to be able to like deepen your levels

26:36 of perception capacity and and how the depth of your ability to pay

26:41 attention can glean you new insights

26:42 about that which you're paying attention to.

26:45 And it's it's cool because it's like you're going from this identity

26:52 of being a material human being that is just like a happy

26:55 accident that is of all these like billions of years of evolution

26:59 of atoms colliding and here you are and you're kind of like

27:03 life is predestined in front of you to like realizing that you

27:06 are a creative act in and of itself like you spoke

27:09 to earlier and you're like in this participation of this alive universe

27:14 and you get to engage with it in in a much deeper way.

27:19 So, I know that was just kind of a whole lot of words at you, but [laughter]

27:22 does anything kind of come up in that that thought?

27:24 No, I mean, um I think it's like, you know, like there was that movie Oh.

27:32 I think it's like a Jimmy Stewart movie where he like he has this experiences

27:37 this whole alternate reality where he doesn't have

27:39 a family and he doesn't blah blah blah.

27:41 American Not Not Miracle on 34th.

27:43 It's a Wonderful Life.

27:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:44 It's a Wonderful Life.

27:45 Yeah.

27:46 So, what I love about that movie or even like actually um a Christmas Carol,

27:52 like that like they have similar

27:54 things where like somebody experiences life outside

27:58 of themselves um that is completely different

28:04 than how what their life used to be.

28:06 And then they see the absence of their presence or the absence

28:09 of uh that life because of different choices or whatever.

28:14 And and but when they snap back into it and they realize,

28:17 "Oh, I'm I'm here and you know, I saw all these things." Whatever.

28:20 It's a very similar to like a trip, you know,

28:23 like going out and you get 5-MeO-DMT or something like

28:25 that and you and you like get blasted, you know,

28:28 to like close to the monad and you're like,

28:30 "Oh, the awareness of awareness, you know,

28:32 that which does not have a name." You know,

28:33 that these types of You get close, you graze a little bit of that.

28:38 And when you come back,

28:39 you're like so empowered to be like, "I'm taking advantage of life.

28:43 I'm I'm alive.

28:44 I'm You know, it's that feeling of being alive in the dream." And then like,

28:47 "Okay, well, now what are you going to do with this awareness?

28:50 Like now You know, what are you going

28:52 to do?" And that excitement like that doesn't,

28:56 you know, that's the thing to shoot for.

28:58 It's like to to always try to remember that.

29:01 To like right You know, like oftentimes like when I lived in New York,

29:04 I'd be standing on the subway platform and I would

29:06 imagine myself tripping and falling into the onto the rails,

29:10 you know, like as the the train is approaching or someone pushing me,

29:13 you know, last second.

29:14 And that's why I usually would stand by a pole or something like that.

29:17 But, um but I was doing that constantly.

29:20 Imagining like my ankle ankle rolling off the sidewalk and me

29:24 falling in and I just as a car is passing, you know.

29:26 And so um but even though that's a weird exercise It's not even an exercise,

29:31 it's just something that actually happens.

29:32 But that imagining those things and then those things not

29:36 happening and then you continue to be walking on the sidewalk,

29:38 it created like these like micro mini you know,

29:42 Christmas Carols or like micro mini Yeah, it's a Wonderful Life or whatever.

29:46 And or a Huck Finn, you know, like experiencing,

29:49 you know, pretending he was dead or whatever and then,

29:51 you know, like being in the rafters and watching

29:53 people celebrating his death and like, you know, [gasps] whatever.

29:56 Point is, you start noticing these things and you start appreciating what where

30:01 you aren't and that kind of reinforces your appreciation of where you are.

30:04 Yeah, yeah.

30:05 You know.

30:06 Yeah, yeah.

30:07 Have you ever done like a death meditation?

30:10 A death meditation?

30:11 No, what is that?

30:12 You regularly meditate on your death, essentially, but I keep you know,

30:14 like kind like kind of process to kind of like really like

30:18 sink into what the experience will be like the moment you're you're dying.

30:22 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

30:22 What you're doing in sort of your own absurdist way,

30:24 tripping onto the railroads or, you know, [laughter] 100% 100%.

30:29 Also, like, you know, 5-MeO-DMT really does that.

30:33 It really I mean, cuz that's the closest you can get to experiencing, you know,

30:37 a chemical rush of what happens, supposedly, you know,

30:41 when the body ceases, it's like you get this flood of DMT,

30:45 you know, and it's like, boom,

30:47 and I think that that's the handshake, that's the handoff,

30:50 you know, it's like the energetic handoff of consciousness,

30:52 you know, in that moment.

30:53 And I think, you know, and and also, uh,

30:57 that would include all the dissociative trips

30:59 that I've been on and I've been like,

31:01 you know, experimenting with multiple different forms of dissociatives,

31:05 you know, um, pretty high strengths, you know,

31:09 um, in the psychonaut community, you know, um, you know,

31:12 some of my neuroscientist friends in the sensor group the sensoria

31:15 group and stuff like that and then the centers for conscious,

31:18 uh, or centers for, oh, what is it called?

31:21 I can never remember the acronym.

31:22 But anyways, it's a consciousness studies group, um,

31:26 and they release papers and stuff on various things.

31:28 But, uh, in those states, like I I die all the time.

31:33 It's like I get close to like, oh, I'm so close to just,

31:37 what if I just let go fully while I'm in the state,

31:42 would that would that would that allow

31:45 for my dissolution of self like to the point

31:48 at which I wouldn't come back to the the weirdness of what I am right now?

31:54 I don't know if that's technically possible, but it is Well, I mean,

31:57 it is possible, but it's but I don't know if it's necessary, you know,

32:03 but it's a good It's an interesting question to get to that point

32:05 when you're that inundated and so

32:08 close to paradoxical thinking that you're like,

32:10 what if I just went into the paradox?

32:12 What if I went through the meat grinder?

32:14 And in essence, like, we are experiencing paradox in all kinds of forms.

32:18 But, all that to say that those questions

32:23 are very interesting and they've been happening,

32:25 especially since the 5-MeO-DMT, every dissociative experience I've had,

32:31 I could take a tiny tiny amount of ketamine

32:33 and suddenly I'm having one of the most insane trips

32:36 imaginable and I'm around and then the weirdest thing is

32:39 that someone can come up to me and be like,

32:41 "Hey, do you need a screwdriver or something?"

32:44 And I can just completely snap into like, "Yeah, absolutely.

32:47 Let me go get it for you." I mean, it's insane.

32:49 I'm like, how am I even able to be this I mean,

32:52 I'm like so deep into a a hole and then I hear someone's voice and I'm like,

32:56 "Oh, okay, let me go get you know, get up, go get the thing,

32:59 hand it to them, sit back down and go into the So,

33:01 it it's interesting like when you become

33:03 aware of the idea of losing yourself losing

33:06 the idea of who your self-consciousness through

33:08 death through the body feeling like your body,

33:11 you know, feeling like anxiety anxiety anxiety and you're like,

33:14 and and and then it just goes away and you're

33:17 trying you have a vague memory of what that anxiety was,

33:20 but now you're no longer there cuz you've kind of crossed over,

33:23 um, to a certain degree.

33:25 And I don't know.

33:26 It's an interesting question and I and I do love that that feeling and I

33:30 know that that can be attained through meditation thing like that, but for me,

33:33 I really enjoy the experience of dissociatives because they they it's

33:37 just it puts me in a mind state where I'm like,

33:39 this is the most familiar state, you know,

33:42 this is this this is the state that I think

33:44 all things are and I do feel when I'm improvising, I'm there, but I don't know.

33:50 The dissociative state is very interesting

33:52 and there's so many different types of dissociatives.

33:54 So, noticing the different effects and stacking them differently,

33:58 yielding different, um, states,

34:00 which is the the state is the it's a comparison Well,

34:04 it's a comparative engine for your awareness to the state.

34:08 And and so, when you put yourself in something

34:10 that completely scrambles your idea of what anything is,

34:13 reality, your relation to your body, the relation to the objects around you,

34:17 the relation to the sounds around you, the relations to awareness itself

34:20 observing itself within within yourself within,

34:23 but, you know, those sorts of things,

34:25 I I find that absolutely it's such a beautiful game.

34:29 I love it.

34:29 And sometimes it's dark and gross and and sometimes it's very uncomfortable,

34:34 but I'm appreciative of all of it.

34:35 It's it's always weird and that's the thing that I really love about it.

34:39 Even if it gets really dark, it's still weird and that's what I love.

34:43 Mhm.

34:44 Yeah.

34:45 How long have you been experimenting?

34:47 Uh, you know, weirdly,

34:48 with dissociatives since I was a teenager because we used to do Robitussin,

34:52 which had dextromethorphan in it, which is a a dissociative.

34:55 Not really used it recreationally like in the psychonaut community,

34:58 people don't get DXM and do DXM.

35:02 It's kind of a dirty, uh, dissociative.

35:05 But, as a kid, you know, we would drink go to the grocery store,

35:08 get a bunch of bottles of Robitussin,

35:10 drink four four to six ounces, you know, and and it was a heavy substance.

35:15 I mean, it's a really heavy substance and the substance

35:19 really bonded us like as a group because,

35:22 you know, it made us incredibly empathic when we were on the high,

35:25 very kind of robot functioning robotically

35:27 and like hyper-pragmatically in a super abstract way,

35:32 um, and having incredible adventures on on it.

35:35 Um, and so, yeah, so I didn't realize that after my Robitussin phase and then

35:40 it was mostly just weed and mushrooms for a long time and and LSD.

35:45 And then I didn't really try anything and then

35:47 and then MDMA came along in my later 20s

35:50 and I tried that, but really only did it

35:52 like three or four times and it was diminishing returns.

35:54 I noticed it was diminishing every time and I was like, "Um,

35:56 not really That's not really my thing." Not that I was like,

35:59 "I'll never do it." But I just like

36:00 I'm not gravitated towards it toward pulled towards it.

36:03 And then it was, you know, just those basic things for a while,

36:07 just like marijuana and stints of like not doing

36:11 stuff for a while and coming back to marijuana, whatever.

36:13 But then when I discovered, uh, ketamine, which I was afraid to do for a really

36:18 long time because of the stigma of like, "Uh,

36:20 horse tranquilizer and K-holes and all this stuff." And then

36:23 when I finally experienced it at a concert in Maine,

36:27 northern Maine, um, called the I think it's

36:29 called the Great North or something like that.

36:31 Um, and then my friend's band Lettuce was playing their jam band.

36:34 They were like playing on the main stage and there was an artist like a big

36:37 artist tent that was close to it and there was a massage therapist who was like,

36:42 "I'll give you a massage." I was like,

36:42 "Great." And so, we started doing the massage while

36:44 they went on and then at a certain point,

36:46 before she started the massage, she was like,

36:48 "I've been experimenting with ketamine and massage.

36:49 Should I experience experience it?" I was like,

36:51 "No, no, no, that's okay, you know, ketamine that's that's crazy." Um,

36:55 and then the massage was like really good and I was like, "Wait a minute.

36:59 I'm totally being offered this experience for free.

37:01 It's easy, you know." I was like, "Fuck it, I'll do it." So, yeah,

37:04 I was like, "Yeah, I'll try it." And then I did and it was incredible.

37:08 Like like viewing my body as like like

37:12 like a loose structure of molecules in space,

37:15 you know, and like, oh,[ __] like, oh,

37:18 I'm zooming out and then as she's like massaging,

37:20 I'm like zooming into the tissue where she's

37:23 massaging and I'm imagining like molecules being realigned,

37:26 you know, so that the tissue is like in a more healthy state, stuff like that.

37:29 And you know, it was so incredible.

37:31 So, after that, um, I kind of didn't do ketamine for a really

37:37 long time until I moved to California and during the pandemic,

37:40 a friend of mine I bought some ketamine and just sat on it

37:44 for like a year cuz I was afraid to do it again.

37:47 And then I started doing it and then had like more

37:53 incredible journeys and insights and I wanted to share it with friends.

37:56 So, friends would come over and I'd do one-on-ones with them and we'd

37:59 lay on my bed and listen to cool minimalist music or whatever I'm writing,

38:03 you know, music for airports, whatever.

38:05 And and that and that was kind of like

38:06 that began my reignited my in kind of fascination with it.

38:11 And then, yeah, so now I'm here.

38:12 Yeah.

38:13 Here you are.

38:15 I'm curious There's a few things that that definitely came up, uh,

38:20 with anyone who's kind of gone more

38:22 a bit of the psychonautic route where they through

38:26 these altered states of consciousness is you have

38:29 these experiences which give you like a reference point,

38:32 a possibility of like a way of being, uh,

38:36 this like in subjective experience of like of what it's like to put down

38:40 the psychological baggage that you normally carry around

38:43 in your life and like like the way

38:46 that you described it was like it's kind of like a remembering is

38:49 to your natural state of what it's like to be you without all the extra stuff.

38:54 Mhm.

38:55 Um, I'm curious how I suppose successfully you've integrated sort

38:59 of the distinction in your day-to-day life of the observer and the experience

39:04 because no matter how many experiences you have and how

39:08 many so to speak rise and trips you go on, coming

39:12 back into sober waking consciousness to be able to integrate

39:15 it and embody the experience in a way where you maintain

39:18 that continuity of awareness where there's like there's the the content

39:24 of your experience is placed in a larger context of awareness.

39:28 Yeah.

39:28 Mhm.

39:29 And being able to experience that more and more,

39:32 in my personal experience, like everybody has their own journey with it.

39:35 I have a lot of friends who are,

39:36 you know, definitely more experimenting more on the psychedelic path.

39:39 Um, and I've dabbled in the past.

39:41 Um, just was curious what all the hype was about.

39:46 [laughter] Oh, yeah.

39:46 Uh-huh.

39:46 Of course.

39:47 But, like uh at a certain point my personal journey was like I actually don't

39:51 need another experience to know that that there's

39:55 that that that there's a there there.

39:56 Mhm.

39:57 Mhm.

39:57 Um, and the real work becomes to like actually integrate what I know

40:02 because there's like there's like always

40:04 this balance of like awareness and integration.

40:08 And I feel like if we're honest with ourselves,

40:10 we usually have the awareness that we need

40:13 to to to like move progress and grow internally.

40:16 Mhm.

40:16 Uh um, and it's like the integration that most of us tend to need more.

40:19 So, I'm curious, what is your thought process around

40:22 like the integration and embodiment of the expanded awarenesses?

40:25 Mhm.

40:26 Yeah, I I actually gone I've gone pretty deep about it where,

40:30 you know, because I really love drugs.

40:32 And um and yeah, I really love it because it gets

40:36 me it gets me to deeper places even socially, you know?

40:40 When someone who is you know, like I met this guy named Jackalope.

40:45 He's one of the most measured psychonauts.

40:47 He is crazy successful like written programs for like data mining

40:52 for medical research and um works with the University of Melbourne,

40:56 has a has a position there

40:57 at a PhD um working on essentially consciousness studies.

41:03 And um this guy's insane.

41:05 He's like held his breath underwater for 20 minutes.

41:09 There was like a video of him and he thinks it's fun Well,

41:11 I think it is funny, but like he's like Oxygen assisted?

41:14 Yeah, yeah.

41:15 Yeah, yeah.

41:15 He did a lot of training.

41:16 A lot of training.

41:17 A lot of training.

41:18 Um, but yeah, so he's he's managed Or no,

41:21 he's done um I think he's done like within 15 minutes.

41:26 There was another guy, Brandon,

41:28 who uh has a longevity institute in um Las Vegas.

41:32 When I went to the Sensoria,

41:33 it's a essentially it's a let's call it a wizard meetup,

41:36 but it's Sensoria is like a consortium of uh

41:40 data scientists and psychonauts that meet in outside of Porto,

41:44 um Portugal um on a this kind of resort space.

41:48 And then they give talks about like

41:49 the current state of neuroscience and pharma psychopharmacology

41:52 and uh dealing with like tribal indigenous

41:55 medicines all the way to new synthesized compounds.

41:58 And then there's an apothecary.

42:00 And you go through like a a psyche val and a healthy val.

42:05 It's it's loose, you know, it's not like super strict,

42:07 but it's honest and and you present this information.

42:10 So, they have that There's a whole system,

42:12 but you can go to the apothecary in the evening

42:14 and you can ask for 200 mg of methaqualone

42:16 and blah blah blah blah format and blah blah

42:18 blah blah uh mix per or whatever it is.

42:20 And you can like create these stacks and then

42:22 they note all the amounts that you take.

42:25 So, you'll have a record of everything that you've taken at different times.

42:28 And then you can see the compounds list and see

42:29 your different stacks and you know, go about that way.

42:32 Psychonautics is an interesting practice because um for a long time I was like,

42:37 oh, I'm just a drug user you know, like I love drugs.

42:39 Well, I've never thought of myself as like um I use drugs or I'm a drug user.

42:43 I I like drugs.

42:44 I like drugs because um a lot of people

42:47 are afraid of And everything in life is a drug.

42:50 Life is the drug, you know?

42:52 And drugs are not outside of life.

42:54 Life, drugs, whether whatever it is,

42:57 that's all made of the same materials and all

43:00 the same molecules as everything in the universe.

43:02 So, it's not something outside of yourself.

43:04 It's the viewpoint because of again capitalism.

43:06 It's like, oh, this is an extra thing

43:09 that's added that makes you feel a certain way.

43:12 And that's not the real thing.

43:14 It's just a thing that you're experiencing that it's making you experience.

43:16 And once you're off of it, now you're now you're you again.

43:20 It's like that's not true.

43:21 You were you the entire time.

43:22 So, it depends on what resonates with your consciousness and your awareness.

43:26 Um, so I never really had the natural

43:28 tendency of placing limitations on what that is.

43:31 However, I did have the stigma in my mind of like, oh,

43:35 maybe cuz you know, my friend he does like Kundalini blah blah.

43:38 It's like he's better than I am because of but I'm like,

43:40 nah, that's[ __] It's like my level of awareness um is you know,

43:45 different that it's all this all the roads lead to the same place,

43:49 which is perception, awareness of self.

43:52 So, for me I had to actually go through

43:54 a lot of training and this was uh not training,

43:56 but observation and conversation and dialogue with my within myself but like,

44:00 am I just using this stuff just to is this bypass is spiritual bypassing?

44:04 Am I like Well, and then I was like I just kind of arrived at like,

44:07 nah, that's[ __] It's like it's all just as valid.

44:10 And for me I for him like being underwater

44:13 for 15 minutes or whatever or he and I doing

44:15 a crazy stack of compounds and then just like suddenly

44:19 within the geodesic dome because it's always a geodesic dome,

44:21 but like we're in the geodesic dome and like I turn towards him

44:24 and we kind of hold hands for a second and then we kept holding hands.

44:28 We looked in each other's eyes.

44:30 And we just looked at each other's eyes

44:31 for about someone I think someone timed it.

44:33 It was like roughly 23 minutes.

44:35 Never stopped.

44:36 We didn't prepare for this.

44:37 It just happened.

44:39 I I think I blinked once.

44:41 It was like tears were just streaming down.

44:42 Not from sadness or anything.

44:44 They were just because my eyes were open.

44:46 [laughter] My eyes were like, you need moisture.

44:47 What's going on?

44:48 But um I was like and we went through eras.

44:51 We were like staring into each other's eyes

44:53 and like the the eye stayed the same.

44:55 The point stayed the same, but everything around it was changing and we

44:58 were like in eras and things of that nature.

45:01 And I'm like, well, I'm not like kind of come out of that and go like,

45:03 well, that drug experience was great.

45:05 It's like, no, I experienced that.

45:08 The observer experienced that.

45:09 It was just another state.

45:10 So, whether you're white water rafting,

45:13 whether you're hanging by your skin, uh you know,

45:16 uh in a Native American tradition or you're in a sweat

45:19 lodge or you're sewing or you're knitting or you're

45:22 getting into some kind of a hypnotic state and driving

45:25 on a track in a fast car or whatever it is.

45:27 It's all the same[ __] And so um so for me I don't compartmentalize.

45:31 Like I don't I don't prioritize.

45:33 I think the relationship to drugs because

45:36 of the stigma and stuff like that, that creates issues.

45:39 And I think drugs make you put you in a state

45:43 that reminds you of a way of being Yeah.

45:46 that people may misinterpret as the drug being the cause of that.

45:50 Um, certainly it is the revelator to that, but it reveals that.

45:55 But, I think the mistake is when people are like, no,

45:57 heroin makes me feel like this or cocaine makes me feel more social

46:01 and I feel like I have energy and when you rely on that mechanism,

46:05 I think that that's a problem because now you're not you're

46:08 not giving your awareness and your consciousness credit for the experience.

46:12 Yeah, I think for most people the line between psychonautic

46:15 self-inquiry and dependence on heightened state experiences can be very blurry.

46:20 Mhm.

46:21 Um, I do push back on the notion that it's kind of all the same[

46:24 __] I understand that like there's multiple

46:26 ways to to have a transpersonal experience.

46:29 But, what comes alongside each experience does differ whether

46:33 it's an exogenous chemical or through a holotropic breathwork.

46:37 There's a different physiola- physiological cascade of hormones

46:41 and chemicals that change after the experience alongside the experience.

46:45 Um, and I think a helpful framework for me was Ken Wilber's

46:50 like breakdown of the states

46:51 of consciousness versus the stages of consciousness.

46:54 Mhm.

46:55 Like the stage of consciousness is kind of what we are are at.

46:58 Like that's our homeostasis, which slowly raises over time as we grow.

47:02 Mhm.

47:03 Ideally.

47:04 The state can come through any stage, through an exogenous chemical,

47:07 through uh holotropic breathwork or meditative journey or through

47:12 uh big surfing a big wave or whatever, you know, the flow state experiences.

47:15 Um So, yeah, I I definitely do have I think it is

47:20 important to know that there is a big distinction between them all.

47:23 And it can be very easy What What's What's different about it?

47:28 Well, I mean, pick any two things.

47:30 There's so I mean, I think they're depending on what experience or example

47:35 what what drug you're taking is different in the quality of the experience.

47:39 So, Mhm.

47:39 associated is obviously going to be a lot

47:41 different than a heart opener, you know?

47:43 Yeah, for sure.

47:44 For sure.

47:45 I think many different things can give you what you're referring

47:48 to as this similar thing as like experience of your true self,

47:51 like a lack of self-consciousness, um a state and sense of freedom.

47:57 I think they all can have different textures to them.

47:59 But, the come down and the aftermath and the integration

48:04 of psychedelic experiences do differ from endogenous sleep related ones.

48:09 Yeah, I mean, they do and they don't.

48:11 Like they do in that the hard reality practical functionality of things.

48:17 So, if we observe the stages of things

48:19 or the stages or the different or the changing

48:22 of states or the what do you call it like the return to stasis or whatever.

48:28 Um, or even going into exalted states and things like that.

48:32 Um, I think that they are as different as you perceive them to be different.

48:36 But, for me I've I don't really think there's a a difference ultimately.

48:40 And what I mean by that is like and it's not to discount what you're saying.

48:42 I believe that is a way of viewing it.

48:45 But, ultimately it just comes down to experience.

48:47 You are the experiencer and that is beyond the mechanist

48:52 the mech- the mechanistic decided collective reality that we live in.

48:56 So, of course there's going to be like,

48:58 if I pick this up and there's a drug in it,

49:00 I'm not on the drug yet, but as soon as I Oh, it's in my system.

49:04 Now all of these and then we can measure

49:06 the chemicals and like everything that happens all this stuff.

49:08 But, ultimately it doesn't really matter because the intersection the place

49:12 that you arrive at is always it's the it's the awareness, right?

49:18 It's the observer and the experiencer.

49:20 So, the experiencer basically drugs or experiences,

49:24 whether you're going on a long walk or a hike or you

49:27 have a near-death experience cuz you almost fall off a thing or whatever.

49:29 All these things are like there's always

49:32 something that's with you your entire life.

49:34 You are observing yourself your entire life.

49:36 You are always with yourself your the entire life.

49:39 And that is the collective awareness.

49:41 It is the monad, you know, essentially.

49:44 And so uh so in that in that essence when

49:47 you arrive at that place doesn't matter what experience you're having.

49:52 You are in touch with that which never changes,

49:55 which is always the same and doesn't exist but always exists.

49:58 And so that is what I kind of mean by that.

50:00 I think that you are correct in that your your observation

50:03 of self as states are transitioning and things like that.

50:07 And if you view it as like oh I just took mushrooms or I just

50:09 took DMT and blah blah blah blah blah now it's like integration all this stuff.

50:12 But for me it's like I don't I I just

50:15 don't discern between systems or structures and things like that.

50:18 My awareness is always my awareness in any state I go through.

50:21 So for me the drugs is like what method works for you.

50:24 So for me the drugs are maintaining my awareness

50:28 and within the storm of whatever it is I'm on.

50:32 So like for instance the thing I like to practice

50:35 I'm like on a stack of various things and my friends

50:39 are like terrified or whatever and I'm just like no

50:41 no it's fine because you are the center of experience.

50:45 You are the eye of the hurricane.

50:46 If you if you believe that you are

50:49 in the storm then you'll be thrown about the storm.

50:51 But if you realize that you are observing yourself within

50:54 the storm now you're at the center of the storm.

50:57 All that to say like I have this game that I'll

50:59 be like let me do an impression of a normal person.

51:01 So I'm like heavy in a k-hole or something like that but um

51:05 and and my friends are like totally there too and I'll be like watch this I'm

51:08 going to do an impression of a normal person and then I just like

51:10 get up and I grab a cup and I'm like do you guys need anything?

51:12 Do you want to um you know cuz I think Joey's coming over

51:14 a little bit later and blah blah blah blah blah and what I realize like

51:18 the humor of constantly well not constantly

51:22 but being aware of yourself in these ridiculous

51:24 situations and again I have friends

51:26 that do silent retreat meditations all this stuff.

51:30 I I love all of it but like for me I'm just like it's like

51:34 I just don't there's no difference in anything

51:37 whether it's a drug state or whatever.

51:39 And I think that that's the fun thing because I don't know.

51:43 It's just I just find it fun.

51:44 And also that's what music is.

51:46 It's like music is the same thing.

51:47 You produce you get to the same place.

51:48 It's like whether you're on a drug or not a drug.

51:51 I have a friend who's like straight edge.

51:53 He hangs with us when we're doing like heavy dissociatives.

51:56 No difference in quality of conversation whatsoever.

51:59 He he doesn't even see it.

52:00 It's amazing.

52:01 And so I'm like we're all we're at different

52:03 states right now and we're having completely normal conversations

52:08 and I'm not like it's like because I practice not

52:12 having the effects of the drug affect me that way.

52:15 So but that's my practice.

52:16 So um everyone's going to be different.

52:18 No one's going to rock some a heavy load

52:20 of dissociatives and then and then be like that was great.

52:24 You know they'll they'll be like I was

52:25 terrifying and I never want to do that again.

52:27 I'm like I I get it.

52:29 I get it.

52:29 And that's not for you and that's fine.

52:31 But like whether I didn't have drugs and I

52:34 was just on my own or whether I'm on drugs

52:36 again for me no difference whatsoever unless we're comparing it

52:41 to hardened reality structural rules of perception and that's different.

52:46 I'm curious what you've sort of brought back down to earth

52:50 with you from these experiences and how you carry out your day-to-day life.

52:53 Like what have you learned about how often we try to control reality

52:59 and [clears throat] the anxiety producing effects of that cuz I mean there's

53:04 been some incredible mental health studies

53:06 in in that psychotherapeutic setting with with ketamine

53:09 or MDMA or assisted um therapy with with psychedelics and and mushrooms.

53:16 Uh and as somebody who's been dabbling for a while yourself

53:21 like how have you come to understand anxiety solvents and remedies

53:27 for anxiety and our sort of mind's tendency to control reality before

53:31 we like experience it through our body in a in a way?

53:35 Yeah I mean you know anxiety and you

53:37 know is a fear-based state and fear essentially it

53:42 simply connects to our fear of death of not

53:45 being in this life in this way anymore.

53:48 And that's what creates all the spectrum

53:50 of anxiety and certainty you know these types things.

53:52 But anxiety is one that's you know very real and it

53:55 can take over and it's it's crippling and uh cause you

53:59 to self-limit in a way that might not be the best

54:02 for you or yourself whatever and you kind of know it too.

54:04 That's what the anxiety is.

54:06 It's like there's kind of a you're you're in a battle

54:08 between uh death and knowing that death it death doesn't exist.

54:14 And so um so anxiety is like this kind

54:17 of awareness um that it's a it's a challenge

54:20 to awareness to either succumb to it

54:23 or to learn how to unweave that really tight knot,

54:28 you know, start to get some space on that knot and then and undo it.

54:31 And you know, different states again this could be meditation but you know,

54:36 I find that with ketamine assisted um therapy you know,

54:39 many of the doctors that I know

54:41 that they that employ that method they're you know,

54:44 people are getting over issues like hyper quickly.

54:48 And I think the and it stick and it sticks

54:49 and the reason why and they may not do it again.

54:51 They may have three sessions and they may not do it again and they only lightly

54:56 relapse I guess if you want to call it relapse but or or never do it again.

54:59 There was a couple there was a friend of mine that had postpartum

55:01 depression never did psychedelics at all

55:03 had a really terrible time with postpartum.

55:06 And um I was talking to her about

55:09 ketamine assisted therapy before her birth or giving birth.

55:13 And um uh and then I saw her at a party again like a year

55:17 later and she's like and I don't think she did it because of me.

55:20 I think she would was researching and then

55:21 her doctor kind of suggested it but she

55:23 tried ketamine assisted therapy and within she

55:27 was completely back in alignment with herself again.

55:30 And the reason why is because it goes into a deep diagnostic mode.

55:33 I call it the infoluminal.

55:34 It's an infinite liminal state.

55:36 It's the hallways between the rooms.

55:39 And so we shift into the hallways and we become aware that everything

55:43 is connected to these hallways and that the rooms are not the total reality.

55:47 And so that's a cool quick reminder.

55:50 Sometimes it's all it takes.

55:51 The brain needs to be reminded that [gasps] we have options.

55:54 There are things there are things that are that we hold tight and true

55:59 and uh to be concrete but they're only as concrete as we wish them to be.

56:05 And so the the hallway loosens us.

56:07 But also I would say um you know,

56:09 the things that I bring back from the states is that the that my state

56:15 is the constant and that it's not the experiences that shape the state.

56:21 It's the experiences that challenge the state.

56:23 And so meaning the identity that we have within ourselves,

56:29 the idea of who we are as we move through the world

56:32 is held shape really by the exterior environment like nature nurture right?

56:38 It's like you got this blueprint when you're born.

56:40 It's like you have a magnetic signature.

56:42 It's a alignment of planets and gravitational bodies

56:44 that are very unique at that moment when you're born.

56:46 It's like snap it's like a flash of photography like

56:49 boom there's your fingerprint and then you've got uh you know,

56:52 then you've got the environment around you that you're

56:54 growing up in with the template that you have.

56:56 So you have personality template tendencies and stuff like that.

56:59 You have epigenetics all this stuff.

57:00 So there's like these things that are localizing your identity and but as we

57:05 move through life the realization is that we never were any of those things.

57:09 That we are all one consciousness

57:11 experiencing itself infinitely and that this is

57:14 just an exercise in consciousness to exercise um you know,

57:18 the idea of being conscious in the celebration of being alive.

57:21 And like what are the challenges?

57:23 No matter how dark it gets no matter like you know, uh war or like you know,

57:27 someone harms your family or someone but yeah whatever

57:29 it is or you lose your job or you know, all of these things.

57:32 They're all like okay what how you going to deal with this essentially.

57:36 And then the thing on top of that is humor and and humor and absurdity.

57:40 That's where I think when you you asked

57:41 a question about like I think like uh something

57:44 about like how I've how it's changed maybe throughout

57:47 my life as I've been growing up or whatever.

57:49 I was like I was like that's the constant.

57:51 The constant is that this reality is a Muppet reality.

57:55 It's it's just a bunch of goofiness.

57:56 It's all silly.

57:57 Even in the face of the darkest[ __] like

57:59 I've had like experiences with police and stuff like that.

58:01 And um you know, I wrote this quote and it's probably not

58:04 mine but I wrote it just said like recognize yourself in others.

58:08 And so that's what I'm looking for.

58:10 That's why things are funny cuz I'm like recognize

58:12 my myself in that situation and how ridiculous that would be.

58:16 You know, and so um the humor is kind

58:20 of like the overarching so when it comes to anxiety

58:22 and I have friends that are like suffering from anxiety

58:24 I try not to be like teachery or instructor because

58:28 I I hang out with a lot of younger people and I'm 53 now and so like I have

58:32 younger friends and I'm trying not to be prescriptive

58:35 and be like well once you get to my you know,

58:37 it's not that but I am giving them reflective tools.

58:40 I'm I'm saying here's something to think about.

58:42 And um and the thing that you know,

58:44 I there's a phrase that I I wrote on a t-shirt

58:46 one I made t-shirts that when in doubt zoom out.

58:48 Like you know, it's that zoomed out perspective that um that gives us that gives

58:54 us context for how ridiculous it is

58:57 that you even exist in this moment right now.

58:59 That you have the clothing that you have right now.

59:01 That you have the friends that you have right now.

59:03 That you remember where you came from or that you remember anything at all.

59:06 You know, that appreciation and the goofiness of that you know,

59:11 the duality the dichotomy of like I'm a I'm a being and I've got

59:14 this in my and I owe taxes and I'm in debt and I blah blah you know,

59:17 but then you kind of zoom out and you're like the fact that you're

59:19 even able to be here at all having those experiences is[ __] stupid.

59:23 So so for me that's kind of like the consistency throughout my life is

59:28 that I find almost everything no matter how tragic it is, on a certain level.

59:34 And I'm not like dismissing the weight of it or the pain of it.

59:37 That's not not at all.

59:38 It's a divine loving humor, where I'm like, "Yeah,

59:43 that's really shitty, but ultimately it doesn't really matter.

59:47 It it it does matter,

59:49 but it's not doesn't matter to throw it away." It's I'm just saying like,

59:52 it doesn't ultimately matter because you are a consciousness.

59:56 You are part of the collective consciousness.

59:58 And you remember it.

59:59 We're actively trying to remember ourselves.

1:00:01 So, anyways, that[ __] When you've zoomed out like that, have you have you

1:00:07 come to like your own understanding of like kind of what this life is about?

1:00:11 Cuz you see the absurdity of it,

1:00:13 but do you also kind of see like Yeah, I'll just stop there.

1:00:16 What what what comes to mind?

1:00:19 Yeah, no, that's a great question.

1:00:20 Uh Uh yeah, I mean, it's like yeah,

1:00:23 the idea of like the meaning of life, like what why are we here, you know?

1:00:26 But I really think it's it's so basic and it's so hard and to for us to believe,

1:00:31 which is that it is just we're just we're just doing this ourselves.

1:00:37 This is a collective all of consciousness

1:00:40 all the permutations of possibilities of realities.

1:00:43 It's like we're localized to this one experience,

1:00:46 but we but we are all collectively

1:00:49 co-projecting and deciding and agreeing on this reality.

1:00:53 Even like the the the shittiest stuff that you can imagine,

1:00:56 the shittiest things that people have done all throughout history,

1:00:59 all that will be done in the future,

1:01:00 and all the joy that's happening, all this stuff.

1:01:02 It's like it's just the celebration of doing it.

1:01:06 You know, and we do it within our lives, right?

1:01:08 It's like, "Why are you Why you guys

1:01:09 doing this dumb thing over here?" It's like,

1:01:11 "Uh cuz we just want to." That's what it is.

1:01:14 It's always been that, you know?

1:01:16 And so, that's why like in experiences even meditation is a is a great one.

1:01:20 Like you know, where you finally break through and you have this like you know,

1:01:24 this this like it it kind of like you let go and you're not holding,

1:01:28 but you're not projecting you know, it's like you're No, you know,

1:01:31 and you get that perfect zone where it like all

1:01:34 unlocks and unveils and you have this I'm observing non-judgmentally.

1:01:39 When you're in that when you're in that state, uh you know you know it all.

1:01:44 It's crazy.

1:01:45 But then like when you return to the awareness of self and like,

1:01:48 "Well, I got to be at Sarah's at 7:30." You know,

1:01:51 when all that stuff, it kind of feels like it goes away,

1:01:54 and it never really does.

1:01:55 I mean, all you know, I said that this to my friend who

1:01:57 was having like a almost having a nervous breakdown.

1:02:00 Tell me before she went on stage I said and and it

1:02:03 actually helped her, which I was like I was like,

1:02:04 "Oh, that's great." But she I was just like,

1:02:06 "All states exist uh simultaneously,

1:02:09 infinitely." And for whatever reason that gave her this expansive reminder,

1:02:15 and she went on stage and was like and I was like,

1:02:17 "You're going to perform on stage thousands of more times.

1:02:19 Why is this any different?" You know?

1:02:22 And and that's the that's the vibe, you know?

1:02:24 But I think like, "Why are we doing it?" Because we can do it.

1:02:28 I don't think you know, people are like, "Well, why this particular you know,

1:02:31 why you know?" I don't think it's that complicated.

1:02:34 I think it really is as simple as like

1:02:36 consciousness just wants to do this, and we are consciousness.

1:02:39 We're not separate from it.

1:02:41 It feels like we are because that's the game.

1:02:43 The game is to be like, "Oh, we live in a dual reality.

1:02:46 Things are good, things are bad.

1:02:47 Ones and zeros, you know, whatever.

1:02:49 This exists here.

1:02:50 Why does it exist here?

1:02:51 Because it doesn't exist over there." You know, like the whole mechanism of it.

1:02:54 And then that like the the drama, you know,

1:02:56 of life or like I think once on stage I said conflict is the engine of reality.

1:03:00 It's like conflict is and drama,

1:03:03 those are the things that make us feel in reality.

1:03:05 It's like, "Oh, I'm sad.

1:03:06 This person[ __] me over.

1:03:08 __] you know?" Or like, "I got the thing that I always want you know,

1:03:10 like all these things are like, "Yeah,

1:03:12 we're constantly fighting against not feeling you know,

1:03:15 like that's what we're doing.

1:03:16 That's the the battle is to stay up here." It's like, "Well, not not really.

1:03:20 It isn't it isn't, right?" But if you know that when you go high,

1:03:24 you know that there's going to be a low, then that's something to be aware of.

1:03:29 How do you balance the understanding of that perspective

1:03:32 where like this is an illusion of separation, consciousness is playing,

1:03:36 duality and attachment is the system and how we're learning,

1:03:39 it's all an illusion,

1:03:40 it's the illusion we're here to play with like the deep pain of humanity.

1:03:46 And yeah.

1:03:48 Yeah, no, I mean, yes.

1:03:50 Yeah, I'm glad you asked because it's super simple.

1:03:52 No, I I mean, I think about that all the time,

1:03:55 especially when I go in my my my deep trips,

1:03:58 I'm always going into these like awareness, you know,

1:04:01 the tight awareness loops that we kind of have that are part of our identity.

1:04:05 Like you know, like noticing like, "Oh, why do I do that when I you know,

1:04:08 I drop something whatever and I'm always like

1:04:10 kind of admonish myself or whatever, you know?

1:04:12 It's like, "Oh, I should should know I shouldn't

1:04:14 have grabbed it better." Or you know, whatever it is.

1:04:16 And like analyzing these like little tight loops.

1:04:18 But which kind of leads to this idea of like, "Well,

1:04:22 what about the suffering and the pain?" Cuz that's

1:04:24 always a that's a tough one cuz it I mean,

1:04:26 and even if you go in the traditional religious outlook of like,

1:04:29 "Why would God and all ever-loving God but have pain if why would they allow

1:04:35 pain and suffering?" And um and if you go into that one, it's like, "Yeah,

1:04:39 you're not really going to find a good answer for that one." But you know,

1:04:41 cuz then the arrival is just like,

1:04:43 "Because that is God and God is mysterious." You know,

1:04:45 it's like, "Yeah, that's true.

1:04:47 You can believe that.

1:04:48 That's fine.

1:04:48 Yeah, totally.

1:04:49 That's that's totally true." But as with paradox,

1:04:51 everything is true and ultimately untrue.

1:04:53 But I would say like the I think that the pain

1:04:55 and suffering is the challenge to understanding

1:05:00 that that is not necessarily necessary.

1:05:03 It is just the antithesis of being in a dualistic a binary reality.

1:05:07 That's the design of this reality.

1:05:08 So, there has to be something there has to be misery and pain and suffering.

1:05:13 Doesn't And I'm saying has to, but it's like loosely.

1:05:15 But like it's the design of the system to have that so

1:05:18 that we have the recognition of what is the antithesis of that.

1:05:21 Like oh, kindness and joy and um community and uh seeing oneself

1:05:28 in others and us being in solidarity and community with one another.

1:05:31 And we're rising and we're not trying

1:05:33 to take advantage of the fact that we're alive

1:05:35 cuz generally like the idea of like evil

1:05:37 and things of that nature are essentially it's awareness,

1:05:41 but like kind of gone in the It's like awareness gone wild,

1:05:44 you know, like it's it's awareness of like, you know,

1:05:47 that idea that I was talking about like the uh It's a Wonderful Life,

1:05:50 you know, that realization of like everything that you might have lost,

1:05:54 but now you're like,

1:05:54 "That didn't happen." And now you can you have this lease of It's kind

1:05:57 of like there's an antithesis version of that, which

1:05:59 is like "I'm awake in this life.

1:06:01 How can I take advantage of those that are

1:06:02 not?" And um and that's an interesting thing, you know?

1:06:06 It's like the Persians called it Ahriman, you know?

1:06:08 It's like the it's the cold calculated intelligence, you know?

1:06:12 It's like it just is the calculator of consciousness

1:06:18 essentially or aware or consciousness like being conscious.

1:06:21 And so, all of that to say, uh I don't like it, you know?

1:06:26 It's like that like, but I also am not as judgmental as I used to be about it,

1:06:29 where I would be like,

1:06:30 "Fuck these guys for doing this." You know,[ __] It's like, "Yeah,

1:06:33 I would rather you guys not do that." And because

1:06:36 we don't need to be doing that, you know?

1:06:37 And that's really kind of where it comes.

1:06:38 So, now it's turned into annoyance with someone

1:06:42 who's taking advantage of people or not

1:06:44 or not or trying to fool people or just like that not being I'm I'm just like,

1:06:49 "If you want power, then why not just say you want the power?

1:06:52 Why create all this obfuscation and try

1:06:54 to get people to like be untrust you know,

1:06:57 don't trust the reality that you're in and like saying

1:06:59 all these like divisional messages to like for I'm like, "Why all the fireworks?

1:07:02 Just like say what you want." Like stop[ __] around, you know?

1:07:06 And stop[ __] around with everybody else cuz like But at the same time,

1:07:10 we're all deciding that that's what it is, right?

1:07:13 Like so so if if if there's a lot

1:07:15 of misery and there's things going on, like for instance,

1:07:18 like even like that stuff that's happening with ice in Minnesota.

1:07:20 It's like you kind of see what's happening and you

1:07:22 see why it's happening and you see what's doing,

1:07:24 but then people are reacting differently.

1:07:25 Some people are uh are physically resisting.

1:07:30 Some people are continuing to you know,

1:07:33 tell people and tell these[ __] to whatever to like get the[ __] out.

1:07:36 You[ __] get out.

1:07:37 All that stuff.

1:07:38 But for me, I'm like, uh it's like the perpetuation of that is what

1:07:44 that what that [snorts] style of interaction is wanting.

1:07:47 So, it wants people to physically

1:07:51 altercate because then that justifies its existence.

1:07:53 And that's the only way it can exist because it it barely has existence in mind.

1:07:57 The only thing it has is the you know,

1:08:00 material force is the only thing that it has.

1:08:02 And again, that's the interplay of like

1:08:03 it's playing off of people's fear of death.

1:08:05 And so, they're like, "We're going to threaten your life.

1:08:07 We're going to threaten your well-being." And you're like, "Yeah, well,

1:08:09 I don't want to lose that, you know?" But then when you have The problem

1:08:12 is when people have the awareness of that like that can never be lost.

1:08:15 That I am infinite perception, and you can imprison me,

1:08:18 and I will still have access to all the freedom of thought that I have.

1:08:23 You can limit my body,

1:08:24 but my if I have an awareness that con- consciousness is infinite,

1:08:29 perception is infinite, I can reformat my my reality any way I want to.

1:08:33 You can like hear that from uh POWs' stories, you know,

1:08:36 like when they're in prison, they're like, "How did you survive?" It's like,

1:08:38 "I just changed my association to reality." You know,

1:08:42 and when people who seek material force are

1:08:47 uh aware of that, it's so frustrating to them.

1:08:49 They're like, "I have no power over you." It's like,

1:08:50 "Yeah, you never did." Yeah, that's the problem.

1:08:53 And it's like and but they'll try their best to like remind you that no,

1:08:57 there's you're going to lose something, you know?

1:08:59 It's like, "We're going to whatever.

1:09:01 Imprison your family.

1:09:02 We're going to blah blah blah blah blah." And you're like,

1:09:04 "Yeah, you can I mean,

1:09:05 I don't want you to do that, but at the same time at the end

1:09:08 of the day the day if this isn't if because I believe so.

1:09:11 I say if, but it's like old language,

1:09:13 but like this is an exercise of consciousness.

1:09:15 It's not again, not bypassing, but you're like,

1:09:18 "This is what's happening right now.

1:09:20 This is the challenge to my consciousness in this moment.

1:09:23 How do I react to this?

1:09:24 How do I relate to the people around me?

1:09:26 The perpetrators or the people who are victims, how do I relate to all of them?

1:09:31 And if it's And what I always say like I have

1:09:33 this thing I always end with and I'm I'm almost over it,

1:09:36 but like it's may love guide us, you know?

1:09:39 And so I don't know if you're

1:09:40 familiar with information physics or digital physics.

1:09:44 Like the it's kind of a newer theoretical school of physics.

1:09:49 But it basically states that the the the base

1:09:51 state of reality is raw information, pure information,

1:09:55 and that contrary to classical physics where entropy is kind of the the thing

1:10:02 that it's like the state stasis is

1:10:05 that things want to break down into chaos essentially.

1:10:08 But in information theory raw information it seeks coherence.

1:10:13 So it always you know, it's like crystals, you know, right?

1:10:16 Like crystals just form.

1:10:18 It's a form of coherence.

1:10:20 It's informational coherence.

1:10:21 So So that the idea of that consciousness, awareness,

1:10:24 all these things arise from this pure

1:10:26 field of essentially what I would call paradox,

1:10:29 you know, it it arises from that and it creates structure.

1:10:33 So it seeks coherence.

1:10:34 And for me you know,

1:10:36 I got into this argument it was really interesting with some interesting people,

1:10:39 but they were talking about um they were they were

1:10:43 they were like having a discussion debating compassion and empathy.

1:10:50 Which I was like, oh, that's interesting.

1:10:52 Like those aren't really debatable things really in my perspective.

1:10:55 But I you know, I was interested so I had the conversation.

1:10:58 But what I said is that um I was like

1:11:02 it's all if you're guided by love um it seeks coherence.

1:11:07 It and coherence meaning resonance, harmony sympathy, empathy.

1:11:12 All of those things arise naturally when you're in service of love.

1:11:15 Meaning you relinquish yourself to the idea of love being all and uh

1:11:20 and in doing so it seeks coherence and so that way you start

1:11:23 gravitating to other things in the world that resonate on that frequency

1:11:27 and you start noticing that reality around

1:11:29 you starts resonating and all these things.

1:11:31 And so but they were like they didn't quite they couldn't quite understand

1:11:35 that idea and they thought that it was like oh love like you know,

1:11:38 like love's a quantity of a thing or it's a concept of a thing.

1:11:41 It's a thing that appears when conditions occur.

1:11:46 Like it's conditional.

1:11:47 Instead of No, love is the base base state of reality.

1:11:50 And and love is not good or bad.

1:11:52 It's paradoxical.

1:11:53 It is all things and it is no things.

1:11:56 So to in my view.

1:11:58 And so all that to say that um the coherence part of it is is

1:12:05 interesting because then I I know it

1:12:07 to be true because I experience it continually.

1:12:09 So as I say that I'm in service of love

1:12:12 and that's why like in comments when people are

1:12:14 being negative or whatever I'm just like if you're

1:12:15 not in service of love you don't really have much.

1:12:18 Um and sometimes people they usually don't

1:12:23 respond back which is kind of interesting.

1:12:25 But um or sometimes they'll be like yeah, maybe you're right.

1:12:28 You know, we'll get into then we'll get into this discussion.

1:12:30 I'll be like yeah, there there you are.

1:12:32 Okay, now let's have a discussion.

1:12:35 Long-winded, but but that's hopefully that answers something.

1:12:40 [laughter] That was great, dude.

1:12:42 I loved I loved just sitting and being a listener of Yeah, okay.

1:12:46 Thanks for hanging in there.

1:12:48 [laughter] No, that was great.

1:12:48 I it's it's a complex and from a level

1:12:52 of understanding can be also simple understanding.

1:12:55 Uh yeah, I thought of many things when you were sharing.

1:12:59 Like the fundamental disposition to being like oriented

1:13:03 towards service to self or service to others.

1:13:06 Um I think is like they kind of put you on two fundamental paths.

1:13:10 One is like the arrow of the causal arrow of time of entropy which you

1:13:15 like thinks it inherently move towards chaos versus

1:13:18 syntropy or or negentropy where things have emergent

1:13:22 complexity and coherence as they evolve over

1:13:24 time which is like two ways of being and I strive like I think probably you

1:13:31 do and most of our listeners for the latter.

1:13:34 Um There's something interesting about uh in the study of what like wisdom is

1:13:40 from a psychological perspective one aspect of it

1:13:42 which I think you'll like is called perspectival metacognition.

1:13:46 So the ability to take on multiple perspectives at once.

1:13:49 Uh a physicist I think it was Niels Bohr or or David Bohm,

1:13:53 one of those uh said the opposite of a fact is a falsehood

1:13:57 but the opposite of a profound truth may very well be another profound truth.

1:14:02 Mm.

1:14:03 Oh, I like that.

1:14:04 that really gets to the heart of of what you're speaking to.

1:14:06 Like from one level and experiencing like

1:14:10 you can experience the deep pain of humanity

1:14:12 and separation and division and what it's like

1:14:16 to be undivided and have empathy for that.

1:14:19 And from another level of understanding you

1:14:21 can see how it's comp like reality is

1:14:24 completely whole but it's it's singular and and perfect

1:14:27 from that understanding it in that state.

1:14:30 And to be wise would be to to honor both as realities, you know?

1:14:33 To like see the the perfection and to see

1:14:36 the the real the reality of the of the separation.

1:14:39 Yes.

1:14:40 Um so Yes.

1:14:42 I I agree.

1:14:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for for sure.

1:14:44 You know, because you know,

1:14:46 it's like I I love the analogy of a holographic plate.

1:14:51 You may have heard of it, but you know,

1:14:52 if you have a old school holographic plate um and you know,

1:14:57 it's like you do this and it's like oh, there's something in there, you know.

1:15:00 And you snap it in half and then you snap

1:15:04 one of the halves and start snapping it into smaller pieces.

1:15:07 Any piece you pick up can still contains the whole image.

1:15:10 And I love that because that is a great metaphor for humanity, you know?

1:15:14 I mean ultimately it's like more than

1:15:16 that, but if we're just talking about humanity,

1:15:18 it's like every person is this tiny irregular shaped piece,

1:15:23 but it all contains the whole always.

1:15:25 And um and I love that and that's why like

1:15:27 I I I always give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

1:15:30 Like I always just assume that this person's my friend even

1:15:33 if they're an[ __] I'm still looking for the friend part.

1:15:36 Um and you know, and everyone contains the full perspective of everything

1:15:43 but the piece is determined again by environment and all of those things.

1:15:47 So but to hold both things as true and untrue

1:15:51 ultimately like infinitely all things it uh again my interpretation,

1:15:57 but like I think that's so healthy because some people think of it as like oh,

1:16:02 you're bypassing as it's just like it's just not it's not that.

1:16:06 You're you're allowing someone if someone's like well,

1:16:09 the we never landed on the moon and and instead

1:16:12 of me going like well pretty sure we went there, you know, and you know,

1:16:16 I know an astronaut that went there, you know, whatever it is.

1:16:19 I instead now I'm like no, you're 100% correct and you're also 100% incorrect.

1:16:25 Everyone is correct and and not correct.

1:16:27 So it depends on coherence, resonance collective uh um Yeah,

1:16:35 it's like a it's like a you know, it's like a it's a it's a co-projection thing,

1:16:39 you know, it's like like I I just kind of go like yeah,

1:16:41 that's true, but also not true.

1:16:43 And and and in that in that way I'm like

1:16:45 that the person is right and I can like really agree with that.

1:16:49 What is the utility in agreeing

1:16:51 with something you fundamentally think is actually incorrect?

1:16:56 Well, that's yeah, that's a good question.

1:16:58 I I think it's I think what it does is

1:17:00 it it gets you off the hook for being judgmental.

1:17:04 But is that why you're doing it?

1:17:06 Um yeah, because I don't like the I don't like the feeling of like going ah no,

1:17:11 that guy's[ __] crazy, you know, but I don't like that.

1:17:14 Is there a third option?

1:17:17 Is there a third option?

1:17:19 Um Instead of I I suppose agreeing with what you very well may think

1:17:23 is an illusion which could be your own

1:17:26 or judging somebody for having an opinion.

1:17:30 Like yeah, I'm just I mean I guess I'm just

1:17:32 questioning the why why it's useful to agree with someone's delusion.

1:17:37 Right, right, right.

1:17:38 I think where you arrive at for your personal

1:17:40 understanding of the situation is the important part, right?

1:17:44 But you can still have that.

1:17:45 That's the thing.

1:17:46 If I go like you just said that all cheese is made of rocks,

1:17:53 you know, and it's like well pretty sure that's not true.

1:17:56 But at the same time I'll give you that.

1:17:58 I'll [laughter] be like yeah, 100% that's totally true.

1:18:01 Because I mean if you think about the observer effect, right?

1:18:03 It's like Schrödinger's cat, classic, whatever.

1:18:06 You've got this cat, no one knows if it's alive or dead,

1:18:09 but we presume it's alive.

1:18:10 It was put in alive and we introduced tons

1:18:12 of toxic radiation or toxic environment and then we're like well,

1:18:16 we know that that cat's dead.

1:18:17 And I'm like do we though?

1:18:18 Cuz I haven't seen it, you know.

1:18:20 And then you open the box and I probably it's dead,

1:18:22 but the only time it's dead is when you observe that it's dead.

1:18:25 So in in essence it's a similar mechanism.

1:18:27 So like if someone's like says something that you're like

1:18:30 that's definitely not true in my experience I'll give you that.

1:18:34 I think like I'll say that it is true

1:18:36 because it is a possibility of that being true.

1:18:39 Uh because in order for a possibility to exist all possibilities must exist.

1:18:43 Yeah, I guess it depends how zoomed out are you?

1:18:46 Are you Are you thinking we live in a multiverse where all timelines

1:18:49 are possible and from that perspective whatever

1:18:51 you're saying could be true then great.

1:18:52 Whatever.

1:18:53 And I think at the very least like there's

1:18:56 also this pattern interrupt when somebody's used to being met

1:18:58 with resistance instead of you just like you just like

1:19:01 look the same way they are like you're like yeah, okay.

1:19:03 And like it invites you in to have

1:19:05 an actual discussion which can actually make progress.

1:19:07 Yes.

1:19:08 So I think there's there's definitely value there.

1:19:10 But you still arrive back at your own you know,

1:19:11 it's like it doesn't change your understanding.

1:19:13 You know what I mean?

1:19:14 So I'm saying like there's you don't lose anything in the in that equation.

1:19:17 That's what I'm saying.

1:19:18 But I understand also you know, the pushback.

1:19:20 I I get that.

1:19:21 You're like how that useful?

1:19:22 But for me it's just like Oh, yeah, sure.

1:19:25 That's not how I see it, but all right, cool.

1:19:27 You know, but you know what I mean?

1:19:28 And that's cool because then I'm not like Dude, that guy is so dumb.

1:19:32 Or like I don't think you can ever

1:19:34 understand something and judge it at the same time.

1:19:37 So like I try to bring that into as many encounters and you know,

1:19:42 conversations as possible.

1:19:44 Because then you're just open to actually meeting somebody where they're

1:19:46 at instead of their ideas of who they are what they are.

1:19:49 Yes.

1:19:49 Um Yes.

1:19:51 And that's love.

1:19:52 Yeah, yeah, and that's building community.

1:19:54 Like I know that you've spoken a lot

1:19:56 to comedy as community and building community in general, the importance of it.

1:20:00 I see you as somebody who's inherently pretty independent,

1:20:03 but like your work is very relational and uh community oriented.

1:20:08 And so I'm just curious what Yeah,

1:20:10 do you have any thoughts on the necessity of communication or sorry,

1:20:14 the necessity of community and you referenced earlier

1:20:17 that like love is essentially recognizing self as other.

1:20:21 And through community and the reflection in the mirrors of other people we get

1:20:24 to like learn so much about ourselves and show up and and so yeah,

1:20:28 what are your thoughts on the importance of community especially

1:20:31 in a time where it seems like we're so divided?

1:20:33 Oof, yeah.

1:20:34 Well, yeah, community is so incredibly important because it doesn't

1:20:38 matter how many profound revelations you come into in your self

1:20:42 practice having the world around you uh reflect

1:20:48 or demonstrate those revelations that you have is incredibly reinforcing,

1:20:52 but it also just eases just it just makes life a little bit easier,

1:20:57 you know, like you you you you you have a community that reflects your values.

1:21:01 You have a community that you respect everybody's journey,

1:21:05 but you all agree that like we're going to we're going to try

1:21:08 our best to to respect one another and to try not to become too tribal,

1:21:15 you know, at least in my community or whatever.

1:21:17 It's like I'm always like we don't want to get too tribal.

1:21:20 We don't want to close ourselves off and say like

1:21:22 we are this because we believe this or you know,

1:21:24 we're living life better because of this.

1:21:26 It's like no, it's like we we have we'll always have that.

1:21:28 Like we need to remain open to others.

1:21:31 Um and not not not necessarily to join the tribe,

1:21:34 but just like to kind of recognize other tribes doing similar things,

1:21:38 you Um and so I think community

1:21:41 is incredibly important because it makes life fun.

1:21:45 Um you know, and um and it reinforces essentially like you were saying,

1:21:51 there's mirrors around us, you know.

1:21:53 And if with the cleaner the mirrors, like the quality of people that we have,

1:21:56 we're clean mirrors for one another or what I call mirror plus.

1:22:00 So it's like we're reflecting,

1:22:01 but we're also giving ourselves in part of the reflection.

1:22:04 Um and if we're doing that with each other,

1:22:06 it's like we have this hyper hyper strengthened um communal identity.

1:22:11 And I think you know, operating through the world with that kind of energy,

1:22:16 people recognize it or they're curious about like

1:22:18 why are you like this and so forth.

1:22:20 And that kind of spreads, it's contagious.

1:22:22 And so I think yeah, community is super important because the world, again,

1:22:26 the way it's designed, and it's a great design,

1:22:29 um it can make people feel siloed, compartmentalized or that they feel like

1:22:33 they should be siloed or compartmentalized

1:22:35 because it's a tough world out there and you got to really rely

1:22:38 on yourself or like just got your four people that you dig you

1:22:41 dig with and that's it cuz everybody else is you know, whatever it is.

1:22:45 Um but when you kind of like get over that, it's a slightly silly notion,

1:22:48 but like when you figure it out away and I have compassion for it,

1:22:51 but I'm just saying like it is ultimately silly.

1:22:53 But when you kind of uh allow vulnerability

1:22:57 in your life and community in your life uh man,

1:23:02 it just it enriches you in a way that way you're not doing all the heavy

1:23:05 lifting all the time of like uh do I have to self-realize all the time?

1:23:09 You know, like No, there's other people that are doing it too.

1:23:12 And we're all the same entity at the end of the day.

1:23:15 And so it's kind of nice and then you're kind of winking

1:23:17 at each other through our characters that we've designed, you know.

1:23:20 Yeah, it's it's cool to be able to take like the experience

1:23:26 of being connected to life to others take it off the pedestal

1:23:30 of like a meditation mat or like a spiritual practice and put

1:23:33 it into your everyday life through the various different ways you can.

1:23:36 I've been really enjoying like these Japanese uh style like

1:23:39 tea ceremonies every morning like sitting with tea for an hour.

1:23:42 It's like an it's like an hour long meditation, but you're drinking pouring tea.

1:23:46 And it's been really cool to feel like the transference

1:23:50 into my day-to-day life of like maintaining that level

1:23:53 of awareness of of like you spoke to the object

1:23:59 and experience or the uh experiencer and the observer the observer Yeah.

1:24:05 Uh and like being able to maintain that throughout

1:24:06 your day like as a as a really really beautiful practice.

1:24:09 Um I'm curious like yeah,

1:24:12 one of the last thoughts or questions that kind of have is I think people

1:24:17 like so many people admire your level

1:24:19 of creative creativity and and your level of artistry.

1:24:22 And we are we all have that place that is one

1:24:26 in the same within us and then we also have this deeply

1:24:29 unique individual expression of God and life the universe that expresses itself

1:24:37 in different ways creatively like through our whatever we're naturally drawn to.

1:24:40 And I'm curious like your thoughts on how we can

1:24:43 pay attention and continue to cultivate that in our own individual

1:24:46 ways because I love this quote from Tony Kaye Lombardi I

1:24:50 think uh it's the artist's responsibility to make the revolution irresistible.

1:24:57 Mm, ooh, I like that.

1:24:59 That's very cool.

1:25:00 I agree with that 100%.

1:25:02 So I'm curious like as we're waking up to our own artistry and we're

1:25:06 waking up to our own the responsibility we have to be able to shape culture,

1:25:09 to be able to impact our communities

1:25:11 and to awaken to those realizations on an individual level.

1:25:14 Uh yeah, what what thoughts do you have

1:25:18 to support people discovering their unique expression creatively?

1:25:25 Yeah, I mean, it's the adventure of the lifetime, you know.

1:25:28 And it's like like that's that's kind of I think it's the first step, you know.

1:25:32 I think um when uh you know, specifically if I'm thinking about like artists,

1:25:37 like young artists and they'll ask me like you

1:25:40 know what advice would you give me about you know, like my my journey and stuff.

1:25:45 And I'm like you have the easiest job in the world.

1:25:47 And and what I mean by that is like all you have to do is have a good time.

1:25:51 And have fun like in what you're doing.

1:25:54 Like like like why are you doing what you're doing in the first place?

1:25:58 And if the answer is like you know,

1:26:01 something like fame and fortune and you know, and so forth.

1:26:04 That's a thing, but that's not the thing, you know.

1:26:08 Um it's you have to ask like are you having a blast?

1:26:12 Do you wake up not imagining yourself not being you know,

1:26:15 if you if you can't imagine yourself not

1:26:17 doing this then that's what you should be doing.

1:26:20 And while you're doing that, that feeling that you've had

1:26:23 creating it's just about having a good time about the fun.

1:26:27 So I always say follow the fun.

1:26:28 It's you know, I don't do I don't like to work.

1:26:31 And um and thankfully because I do the things that the way that I do

1:26:36 and it's like I that's the way that I do it and um you know,

1:26:40 people just have to kind of be like, well, we do it this way.

1:26:42 And I'm just like, yeah, but I do it this way.

1:26:44 And they'll be like, okay, well, maybe you can fit into that.

1:26:46 I'm like, yeah, I'll fit into it.

1:26:48 I'll fit in.

1:26:48 You trust me, you know.

1:26:49 Um but uh I don't Yeah, I don't like being like,

1:26:53 we're going to have this grueling day at the I'm like, wait a minute.

1:26:56 Do we need to we need to do three takes with that?

1:26:59 Did um did we need to change the lighting?

1:27:01 Are we worried about continuity?

1:27:03 This is a comedy.

1:27:03 Like, you know what I mean?

1:27:04 I'll just be like, we just need to preserve the inspired moments.

1:27:09 Like and and if we're trudging and toiling and stuff like that it

1:27:13 it just doesn't yield for me the the greatest feeling on on set,

1:27:18 the impetus being on set.

1:27:19 Um and and therefore what can I do

1:27:22 to ensure that I'm protecting the fun of the situation?

1:27:26 And if I'm in charge of a a thing, like I'll make sure the food is good and I'll

1:27:29 make sure that there's no plastic water bottles on set,

1:27:32 you know, it's like that, you know,

1:27:33 people are helping clean up, you know, after the thing or whatever.

1:27:36 And we're only doing two takes instead of five takes, you know,

1:27:38 like I want us to be out of here in five hours.

1:27:40 I don't want to be any I don't want to be here for all

1:27:42 these extra hours to prove that we worked hard to make this thing.

1:27:45 It's like that doesn't make a thing better.

1:27:47 And so for me it's it's like fighting for fun through simplicity.

1:27:52 And remembering like, yeah, this is the adventure.

1:27:55 Like like like I want to preserve that.

1:27:57 So preserving the fun and chasing the fun

1:27:59 and and doing it for the love of what you're doing,

1:28:02 it's all that really matters.

1:28:03 And again, from there that's kind of like being in service of love.

1:28:06 And then coherence follows from that.

1:28:08 What do you think for those that are like the starving

1:28:11 artist archetype or like they want to follow the fun,

1:28:13 they have a passion they want to pursue and get better at?

1:28:17 And it's tough to be able to like

1:28:19 sustain themselves financially living off of that.

1:28:22 Um you've been doing this for a while.

1:28:25 I'm curious what your thoughts are as you I'm sure

1:28:27 you've had a lot of people ask you about this.

1:28:30 Yeah, I mean, yeah, cuz I mean, when I started I mean,

1:28:35 I guess technically I've always been doing art,

1:28:37 but um when I guess I started doing it professionally.

1:28:41 Um uh you know, I would have been like what?

1:28:43 18, 19 or something like that.

1:28:45 And um you know, again,

1:28:48 it's really like all I did was like I wanted to be a part of things.

1:28:53 And so part of it was like, man,

1:28:55 someday I hope I get play to get to play with that bass player.

1:28:58 You know.

1:28:59 And then like two years later there's like an ad

1:29:01 in the local rag like this band seeks keyboardist.

1:29:05 I'm like, well, that's crazy.

1:29:06 That's the band with that bass player.

1:29:07 And then I try out for it and then I get the the thing.

1:29:09 I'm like, oh,[ __] I'm doing this thing.

1:29:10 You know, so a lot of it is like imagining yourself where you want to be.

1:29:14 And um and again, community is kind of the thing cuz like you know,

1:29:19 I lived with people.

1:29:20 I lived with like a collective of all kinds of artists

1:29:23 and we helped each other um through hard times and if you know,

1:29:27 you're down on rent or whatever like like I had like

1:29:29 parents that would be helpful now and then and you know,

1:29:32 or my friends would help me out or you know,

1:29:34 um so it's really about community and um

1:29:37 and then that community is built on everyone's unified passion

1:29:41 for having a blast and doing dumbass cool[ __]

1:29:45 or badass[ __] or however you want to view it.

1:29:47 And I think that that's the thing that saves you.

1:29:49 So in the in the beginning like if you're just starting out and you're like,

1:29:52 I have to work this[ __] job and blah blah.

1:29:54 But there's something there's a pride in like,

1:29:56 I'm going to[ __] do this no matter how hard this is.

1:29:59 If I have to drag my equipment, you know,

1:30:01 by hand up a giant hill to get to this jam session,

1:30:05 I'm going to do it because I know when I get there, it's going to be amazing.

1:30:08 It's going to all be worth it, you know?

1:30:10 And those reminders are the things that keep you going.

1:30:14 I love that's so important.

1:30:16 I feel like to surround yourself in the environments

1:30:18 with people that are in the direction you want to move,

1:30:21 you know, and be able to like have that level

1:30:23 of indignation or conviction for for what you want.

1:30:28 Um Totally.

1:30:28 Yeah.

1:30:29 And also people recognize it, you know,

1:30:30 like you other artists they just like, that's badass.

1:30:33 It's like, well, you dragged all that[ __] all the way you know,

1:30:34 or or whatever, you know, it's like,[ __] you got arrested and then you after

1:30:37 you got let go out of the the the holding cell, you came straight to rehearsal.

1:30:42 That's[ __] cool.

1:30:42 You know what I mean?

1:30:43 Like you get rewarded all the time.

1:30:45 It's it's awesome.

1:30:46 Yeah, those little like affirmations along the journey.

1:30:49 You're in the right direction.

1:30:50 You can Yeah, it's good.

1:30:53 This has been fun.

1:30:54 Have you been having fun this conversation?

1:30:55 Yeah, no, it's been great.

1:30:56 It's cool to get to talk like about stuff cuz I don't, you know,

1:30:59 it's like I don't get to talk about it as much as I'd like to.

1:31:01 So I appreciate that.

1:31:02 Yeah, I know.

1:31:03 This has been a been a blast, man.

1:31:06 Um I just want to open the floor in case there's

1:31:09 any thoughts you have given the whole context of this conversation.

1:31:13 Like is there anything you feel feel inspired that's

1:31:15 on your heart or anything that you want to share?

1:31:17 Hm.

1:31:22 [sighs] No, not not really other than um you know,

1:31:24 stay stay you know, stay in service of love, man.

1:31:28 It's like it'll get it'll we'll we'll get through these dark times, you know?

1:31:31 It's like these dark times are here for a reason and um

1:31:35 and the more we stay in coherence with that, the more

1:31:38 we move into the possibility on the on the infinite horizon

1:31:41 that leads us to the world that we want to live in.

1:31:43 So that's what I would say.

1:31:45 Beautifully said.

1:31:46 Thank you, man.

1:31:47 Yeah, man.

1:31:48 I really appreciate you coming out and the long

1:31:50 drive and the traffic and like getting

1:31:51 to connect and it's just my favorite space

1:31:54 to to have a couple hours to dive deep.

1:31:56 Man, it's so sick.

1:31:57 It's great.

1:31:58 Thank you.

1:31:58 Thank you, man.

1:31:59 Just uh last thing, is there any where people can stay connected

1:32:01 with you with upcoming projects or things we'll link down in the description?

1:32:04 Yeah, for sure.

1:32:05 Um I have a website.

1:32:06 It's reggie-watts.com.

1:32:09 Um some other[ __] took Reggie Watts.

1:32:12 I did have it for a long time

1:32:13 and then I lapsed and then like someone snagged me.

1:32:15 Uh anyway, so reggie-watts.com.

1:32:17 And that has like all my show upcoming show information and um

1:32:20 other things like I sell dumb things on there and stuff.

1:32:24 Um and that's that.

1:32:25 And then I have a podcast I think it's safe to say it's coming out.

1:32:29 Um uh I haven't signed the contract but I think it will be

1:32:31 maybe when this by the time this comes out I would have signed it.

1:32:33 Anyways, but it's a it's just called the Reggie Watts

1:32:35 podcast and that'll be on iHeart podcast and um yeah,

1:32:41 making music with Craig Richards,

1:32:42 electronic album with Craig Richards and um various music projects,

1:32:47 something with Joanna Warren and yeah, all I'm always collaborating.

1:32:50 But yeah, those are the main things.

1:32:52 I love it, dude.

1:32:53 Well, yeah, I would love to I'd love to have have you back at some point.

1:32:56 Um We can get get weird, do some improv stuff, pull out the looper.

1:33:01 down.

1:33:02 Oh, I'm so down.

1:33:02 I'm so down.

1:33:03 Whatever you want.

1:33:04 Dope.

1:33:05 Thank you, bro.

1:33:05 And appreciate everybody for tuning to this episode of the Know Thyself podcast.

1:33:09 Catch you on the next one.

1:33:10 Be well.

1:33:23 [music]