I Bought A Drink Nobody Wanted (And Sold It For $2 Billion)
My First Million
0:00 Every deal on Shark Tank, that's a beverage.
0:02 I know they're looking at me.
0:03 But nobody wins the lottery seven times.
0:05 You got sharks spitting out the product, you've got a terrible brand name,
0:08 and you pick up 25% of that company.
0:11 Sold for billion and a half.
0:13 Is this just art or is there some science behind it?
0:16 One of the biggest lines of Robert Woodruff was like
0:19 he wanted Coke to be within arms reach of desire.
0:21 Brand is creating that desire.
0:24 One in 10 Americans influence the other nine.
0:27 The goal is to spot that one.
0:28 Can you teach us more about how it's done?
0:30 It's actually three things.
0:32 One is spotting stuff early, one is building the brands,
0:35 and the other is actually You are You're the brand father.
0:44 You have been brand You You have been crushing it in the beverage space.
0:48 I was reading the like research on you the last couple days.
0:51 I knew about Poppi, I knew about Vitaminwater,
0:54 but I didn't know the extent of it.
0:56 Can you Can you brag for a second?
0:58 Give me Shout out some of the brands that you've been involved with.
1:01 I actually I've started none of I only co-founded one,
1:04 which is Poppi, and I'll tell you that story.
1:07 But the rest I just bought them early or I bought them with founders.
1:10 I think it was like Vitaminwater, Smartwater, they were tiny.
1:14 Vita Coco, even things I lost money on well-known like Popchips,
1:19 uh Vital Proteins, One Bar, Bulletproof lost money but still known well-known.
1:25 What else we have?
1:25 Farmers Own, Once Upon a Farm,
1:28 and then probably Poppi is my sort of most famous alone.
1:31 That's an insane insane roster.
1:34 It was It was funny actually.
1:35 One of our founders who you know, um a guy called Golares,
1:38 who's the co-founder of Gymkhana Fine Foods, was at a We had an LP conference.
1:44 And you know, we're so focused on like
1:47 the brands and the teams and growing stuff.
1:49 And like you sometimes bury yourself
1:52 in the weeds and you don't sometimes ladder up.
1:54 But he's like, "Yo, when you look at the sheet of brands on Cavu,
1:57 which is the fund that I have sort of masthead,
2:01 it's insane this ecosystem you've created.
2:04 I think you do you need to do a better job of almost leveraging that ecosystem.
2:09 And it kind of the light bulb went off cuz he's a founder, right?
2:12 He's growing an incredible brand and I part
2:15 of it I focus on individuals and sometimes
2:18 we got to bring the whole gang in to realize the strength of what we have.
2:22 It's sort of amazing because when a lot of people say the word it's
2:27 sort of related to taste and both of those are can be pretty nebulous.
2:31 But you sort of are like Paul McCartney or John
2:35 Lennon where like you've made enough hits where you're like,
2:37 okay, is this just art or is there some science behind it?
2:41 nobody wins the lottery seven times.
2:43 Yeah, I I I mean that's quite high accolades
2:46 to be in any conversation that used the Beatles name,
2:48 but there's always luck, guys.
2:50 It's not like this you can't you got to the dice
2:52 has got to roll your way a little bit, but if you have a game plan,
2:57 which I've sort of honed over time, the odds flow in your favor.
3:01 And so I've, you know,
3:02 I've created some mantras and some principles and so on and so forth
3:06 that I actually created after the fact cuz you don't go in saying,
3:10 all right, guys, I've got five mantras.
3:11 You're almost like you have a few hits and you're like, how did this happen?
3:15 And then I rewind and go, okay, this is kind of how it happened.
3:18 Give us one.
3:18 What what's one of the first ones you realize like,
3:20 okay, all right, that this is one that matters.
3:23 We got to put that concrete.
3:24 Couple of big ones.
3:25 One is influence the influencer.
3:28 So you got a pot of money, right?
3:30 Whatever.
3:31 A hundred grand, a million, a hundred million,
3:33 whatever you want to spend on your marketing budget.
3:35 Who do I get to?
3:37 Right, I can't get to everyone.
3:38 It's not it's not possible.
3:39 No, you know, unless you're Amazon has the budget to get to everyone,
3:42 but most people when they start a company they don't.
3:45 So from my perspective it's one in 10 Americans and I say America
3:50 cuz 90 100% of my career actually is America in terms of success.
3:55 So, this is the greatest country in the world to be an entrepreneur.
3:57 I say that everywhere I go.
3:58 I truly believe it.
3:59 So, in America, one in 10 Americans influence the other nine.
4:03 The goal is to spot that one.
4:06 And that has evolved over time.
4:08 So, when I first started doing this, honestly,
4:11 and I'm aging myself here, but some of the biggest influences,
4:14 and I'm talking about back in the day with like
4:16 Sprite even and even Vitamin Water, was radio DJs.
4:22 Now, radio is dead and you guys are the heroes online, right?
4:25 But before you before you podcast kings came along, uh it was radio DJs.
4:29 And so, at one time in Vegas, I picked an award show annually,
4:34 and I would fly in the top 25 cities and the top two DJs from every city.
4:40 So, you have 50 people coming in, and every
4:44 single artist that came to that award
4:47 show would want to go to this place cuz you could hit 20 cities in 2 hours.
4:52 It was almost like the cities came to you versus you traveling.
4:55 And back then, you're releasing an album,
4:57 a new product, whatever it is, you write that.
4:59 And I did it back in the day on a brand called Sprite.
5:02 It's a corporate brand, but we did something cool.
5:04 And then I did that with Vitamin Water where
5:06 I took on all the DJs in the local markets,
5:08 and I hired people on my team that felt that vibe.
5:12 Because in order to bond with a DJ, if your dog is not going to work.
5:15 So, I hired people who kind of in my which is my next mantra,
5:19 who lived the brand.
5:20 They didn't market the brand.
5:21 They lived Vitamin Water.
5:22 That was their vibe.
5:23 And so, that's now evolved today to like
5:26 the Alex Earls of the world or the, you know,
5:28 if it's a music, it's the 50 Cent who's having a amazing resurgence.
5:32 But now it's digital social media influencers that were the early DJs.
5:36 And the key is to spot that one in 10.
5:38 So, that's been a big sort of philosophy of mine with every
5:41 company we go into is who is that one in 10.
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6:12 Back to the show.
6:14 Can you define what a brand even is?
6:16 I think a brand is something that allows
6:19 a consumer to have an emotional connection with a product.
6:24 So, this is just a can.
6:26 Gratuitous, uh, you know, product of certain.
6:31 [laughter] I drink it.
6:31 I like the product.
6:32 Liquid's great.
6:34 But, I got to create an emotional bond with people, so they request a Poppi.
6:39 They reach for a Poppi.
6:41 And I worked for Coke back in the day,
6:43 and one of the biggest lines of Robert Woodruff was like
6:47 one of the godfathers of making Coke what it is today.
6:50 He said he wanted Coke to be within arm's reach of desire.
6:54 Brand is creating that desire.
6:58 Right.
6:58 And then, the distribution is putting it in arm's reach.
7:01 You nailed it.
7:01 Exactly.
7:02 Sam sent texted me a clip this morning of when Poppi walked into Shark Tank.
7:07 And at the time, they're not called Poppi,
7:08 they're called like Mother or Mothers or something like that.
7:11 Yeah.
7:12 They're not a soda that tastes good.
7:14 That's a prebiotic.
7:15 They're apple cider vinegar.
7:16 So, it's amazing cuz it's like you know,
7:18 when there's these documentaries and there's like the dude who
7:21 followed Kanye around 10 years before he became famous at all.
7:24 And you're like, I can't believe we're so lucky that this guy happened
7:27 to just follow this young artist in Chicago who happened to become Kanye West.
7:32 And so, there's this thing where it's like
7:33 you see them come into the Shark Tank.
7:36 I think they have something like $250,000 in revenue.
7:39 Some some 200 to 400k of of annual revenue at the time.
7:43 Yeah.
7:43 Different brand, different drink, no revenue.
7:46 All the other sharks go out.
7:48 So, it's you're you're in a bidding war with no one.
7:50 Yeah, nobody.
7:51 Nobody.
7:51 They uh they go, "All right, sharks.
7:53 Taste this healthy drink." And they make
7:56 people take a shot of apple cider vinegar.
7:58 And they're like, "This is horrible." And they're like,
7:59 "Yeah, it is horrible, but it's great for you.
8:02 Now, what if it could be great for you and also taste good?
8:05 That's our product." Which is it was a really good actually pitch.
8:08 Yeah, the title of the video is um sharks disgusted Yeah, they were.
8:14 by the Poppy like They were.
8:17 I think Kevin may have spit it out.
8:18 I can't remember, but So, you got you got sharks spitting out the product.
8:21 You've got a terrible brand name.
8:23 Mothers in cursive, and it looks like a old
8:25 like um sparkling wine or something like that.
8:28 Yeah.
8:29 Uh totally different formulation, and you pick up 25% of that company.
8:34 I think Poppy sold for a billion and a half or something like that.
8:38 No, no.
8:38 Come on.
8:39 North of two, buddy.
8:39 To Oh, north of two.
8:40 Okay.
8:41 Unbelievable exit.
8:43 What happens?
8:44 And it's amazing that the whole thing was captured.
8:45 What happens between the time you see it?
8:47 What are you thinking then?
8:48 And then, what were the things that actually transformed that business?
8:51 Cuz I think that's a perfect like case study.
8:54 Yeah.
8:55 Let's go to phase one.
8:56 So, these guys come out.
8:57 Like every deal on Shark Tank that's a beverage or food, but really beverage.
9:02 Like I can do the range, but beverage is kind of my real house.
9:06 I don't know if I was DNA gifted with that.
9:08 So, beverage comes out, and they're like I I know they're looking at me.
9:11 Like Cubans are a bigger name than me.
9:13 Kevin's a bigger name than me.
9:14 You know, Lori's the queen of, you know,
9:17 uh digital on QVC, but beverage they're looking at me.
9:20 And then, these guys come out.
9:21 I'm like, "Here we go again." Cuz we I'm now three seasons in.
9:24 I'm like, you know, someone's going to hit
9:26 me up with some nonsense beverage, you know.
9:28 And we had some real dumb ones along the way.
9:31 But this really good-looking couple comes out, you know,
9:33 husband and wife like straight out of Central Casting.
9:36 Like they look like that, you know,
9:37 like this chiseled, good-looking, you know, white boy.
9:40 I'm I'm I'm friends with Steven and we became friends
9:42 because I DM'd him and I just said, "We look alike.
9:45 Want to be friends?" I swear to god.
9:47 But he does look a little bit like Steven Hart.
9:50 You're kidding.
9:50 So, these bloody two good-looking guys come out and guy and a lady.
9:54 She's like, I don't know, 8 months pregnant.
9:56 She could deliver any second.
9:57 So, immediately I'm like, they've got hustle.
10:00 So, one.
10:02 Then they pitch the product and I'm like, horrible packaging.
10:05 I don't like the brand name.
10:06 You know, I like the word mother, but everyone has a mother.
10:08 You can't trademark it.
10:09 It's not really a trademarkable thing.
10:13 But like let's try it.
10:14 So, that's that's the train's running on that track, okay?
10:18 In the separate track in my head, I'm a soda kid.
10:21 I've been looking for soda.
10:23 I grew up in Zambia, in Africa, right?
10:24 So, in Zambia, when you had three beverages, Coke, Sprite, and Fanta.
10:29 That's it.
10:29 But I came off sodas cuz soda had[ __] ton of sugar.
10:32 They're not good for you.
10:33 They're no value.
10:33 But in the back of my head,
10:34 I've always been looking for soda I can feel good about.
10:38 But I didn't go into the show thinking that.
10:40 But in the back of my head, that's the running track.
10:43 I try this.
10:44 Actually, it was this one.
10:46 Ironically, it was the orange one.
10:48 And so, for me, that is still this is my top two.
10:51 Orange is my favorite and cream soda is my second.
10:54 So funny, the two flavors I drank when I was a kid.
10:57 It's amazing what 40 years later,
10:59 it's throwing back to the 9-10 year old Roland.
11:02 Crazy.
11:02 Anyway, so I try the orange one and I'm like, oh my god.
11:06 This is Fanta meets Orangina.
11:09 If you guys don't know.
11:10 And I'm like, this liquid is in my head takes me back.
11:13 This is my modern soda.
11:16 But I don't get excited cuz I know the minute I get excited,
11:19 these guys get excited.
11:21 And so, I think you were the last one to talk, at least in the edit.
11:24 I don't know if that's actually how it was,
11:26 but I thought that was incredible patience to let the other sharks
11:29 play out before you chimed in cuz obviously you would influence them.
11:32 Exactly right.
11:33 I did not.
11:34 I specifically remained mute because the minute
11:37 I seemed vaguely excited and by the way,
11:40 even then, Cuban and Bethany both turned to me and said,
11:44 "Rosh, should we split this?" [laughter]
11:46 And I'm like, kind of in a nice way, no,
11:49 because if this works, which it did, why would I want to split it?
11:54 And if it doesn't work, I'm fine to lose it,
11:56 but in the end the I'm betting on myself, right?
11:59 Right.
11:59 I didn't like them.
12:01 Like I like Steven Allison, but that's a very short like like like you know,
12:05 we go out for dinner the next day and I'm like, oh god, they're horrible.
12:07 The first thing I did when we got when we became partners, I shut it down.
12:11 I shut down Mother.
12:13 And it was a tough conversation and then basically Steven Allison, me,
12:17 and a lady on my team called Stevie, we basically co-founded Poppi.
12:22 There was no Poppi.
12:23 And in my mind, I wasn't focused on an apple cider vinegar beverage.
12:28 I was focused on making this modern soda for today's youth.
12:31 And so I'm like, okay,
12:32 if I love soda and everyone else loves soda, this is modern soda.
12:36 And so we kind of created the whole modern soda category,
12:39 but I wasn't thinking apple cider vinegar.
12:41 And so we shut Mother down.
12:44 Stevie, myself, Allison, Steven,
12:46 and Stevie took charge of the packaging design actually.
12:48 We then all debated which is the best one to go with.
12:51 We voted on it and that's where Poppi came into play.
12:54 What about the name?
12:55 We had a David Placik come on who who named Blackberry and Swiffer
12:59 and he he gave us like a master class on naming product.
13:01 Poppi is a is an incredible name, right,
13:04 for a soda pop brand uh to to find that super easy to say, recognizable, fun.
13:10 It almost feels bubbly in the name like Yeah.
13:13 Here's a So I'm strategically creative, right?
13:17 Stevie on my team is what I call tactically creative.
13:20 That sounds like something I would say when I don't want to do work.
13:23 [laughter] That's exactly right.
13:23 Yeah, she works with me.
13:24 Yeah, good one.
13:25 So So it's a triangle offense, right?
13:28 Allison and Stephen had created the product.
13:31 It's a great product,
13:32 but their their insight was apple cider vinegar healthy healthy beverage.
13:37 My insight is I want soda.
13:40 So, what's America for sodas?
13:43 Pop, right?
13:43 So, that's the It's what everyone In England it translates
13:46 That's all the poppys exploding in in the UK now,
13:48 but And And Stevie's goal was how does she take what they created,
13:52 what my strategic game plan was, and create a name that rolls off the tongue.
13:57 And we had a bunch of them.
13:58 At one point I even liked Mom and Pop cuz I'm like
14:00 it was a throwback to like Mom and Pop stores and all that.
14:04 And people told me it was stupid and they were right.
14:06 But But then when they came out
14:07 with Poppi and Stevie presented I'm like, "Okay." Right.
14:11 Can we All right, let's go back because you
14:13 only invested I think 250 or or $400,000 into Poppi.
14:17 And so it was a really small business.
14:19 You shut it down at half a million in revenue
14:20 and you rebranded it and restarted it as Poppi.
14:24 Do you remember what was the revenue growth up until you exited for $2 billion?
14:29 Yeah, so And at this point I give Allison
14:31 and Stephen full credit because Mother was their baby.
14:35 And to go to a founder and say, "Hey, good news, bad news.
14:38 Good news, you know, I'm your partner.
14:40 Bad news, we're shutting down Mother.
14:42 Um you know, we're not co-founding Poppi together."
14:45 That takes a lot of faith on their part.
14:47 And we launched in March of 2020, right?
14:50 We sat I said, "Guys, I don't want plastic cuz plastic's bad.
14:55 We can't do glass cuz it's inconvenient.
14:56 We're going to go back to cans." OG it's Telegraph soda.
15:01 That's That's what I drank.
15:01 You know, I'm sitting sitting here drinking out of a can.
15:03 We launched March of 2020.
15:05 What happens in April?
15:07 COVID.
15:08 The world shuts down.
15:09 Yeah.
15:10 So, we We had started to be a more
15:13 digital company because that's just the nature where life was,
15:16 but we turboed that.
15:18 Because then suddenly all retail was dead and everything
15:21 became digital and so on and so forth.
15:23 So, you know, our first year we did like
15:25 a couple million bucks only because the world shut down,
15:28 which is still incredible for that.
15:30 But then we went from like a couple of million
15:32 to over half a billion in the next 4 years.
15:35 So, from '21 to '20 five we we exploded.
15:41 And did you put more money in in the beginning
15:44 to push marketing or did you guys raise?
15:47 What did you guys do?
15:48 Yeah, we kept raising.
15:49 I mean, there's I mean, beverage is expensive, by the way.
15:51 Like I put more money in.
15:53 My fund Cabo came in.
15:54 So, my business partner Brad was like, "Look, I believe in you.
15:58 I don't get beverages early.
15:59 If you get it, Cabo is going to back it." So, we everyone went in, right?
16:05 And so, we kept backing.
16:06 We raised a chunk of money,
16:08 but everyone got a great return because of the exit number.
16:11 It's not really what you get it at, it's what you get out at.
16:14 How much did you raise in sum?
16:15 What did we I mean, all in?
16:18 40, maybe?
16:20 Wow.
16:20 Well, that being That's amazing to go from much.
16:23 I didn't realize you guys were that new.
16:25 So, 20 roughly 2021 to 2025 26 zero to $2 billion exit.
16:32 Yeah.
16:33 What was the most satisfying win you had?
16:36 Was it Poppi or was it something earlier?
16:37 Was there something where maybe even it wasn't as big financially,
16:41 but just you just were proud of kind of the way you made it work?
16:45 No, Poppi, hands down.
16:46 Poppi because Poppi Everything else I went and someone
16:50 else had a product that I helped build.
16:52 Here, Steven and Allison created Poppi and that it was brilliant.
16:55 Without the liquid that they had created, we wouldn't be anywhere, right?
16:58 But I got in early enough to basically co-found Poppi with me
17:02 and Steven added to Allison and Steven and it was amazing.
17:05 And so, I think that was satisfying because
17:08 I I had the vision from the beginning.
17:11 I had a great team with Steven, Allison,
17:15 Steven and then we brought in a CEO because at some point I'm not an operator.
17:20 Allison and Stephen super smart but also realized they weren't operators.
17:25 And so once we got to like 30 40 million we
17:28 brought a guy called Chris Hollins and that guy is a legend.
17:31 I think one of the other lessons you have to learn as an entrepreneur is
17:35 having a a a founder and creator mind
17:41 doesn't always align with having an operator mind.
17:44 Sometimes More more more often it probably doesn't.
17:47 More often it doesn't.
17:47 The one guy I think was really good
17:49 at it was a guy called Kurt from Vital Proteins.
17:52 I don't know him.
17:53 Kurt founded Vital Proteins.
17:55 We partnered with him as well and that guy
17:57 was he was actually a rocket scientist like legit.
17:59 So he was a founder and a brilliant operator.
18:02 So that's you know it's a unique rarity.
18:03 But in this case we brought in Chris Hollins and Chris ran the Barkley's Ice.
18:07 So I had to spend a lot of time like coaching
18:11 and begging and then convincing and a combination of all of the above
18:15 to get him over but he was a game changer because you
18:18 need to operate and he helped take it from like 50 to 500.
18:21 Man it's still amazing how good you are
18:23 at this and and I think we should talk about that because there's
18:27 a handful of skill sets that are you just I call
18:29 them ATM skills where you just become like a money maker.
18:32 You know like if you can create an audience you're probably a money maker.
18:36 If you can sell you're probably a money maker.
18:37 If you can do good branding you're probably a money maker.
18:40 And you've done it many times in a row.
18:42 Where did you learn how to do this cuz I know you worked for Mars.
18:45 You worked for Coke.
18:46 Is that where you learned how to do
18:48 this and and can you teach us more about how it's done?
18:52 Actually it's interesting you bring up that point.
18:53 It's actually three things.
18:56 One is spotting stuff early.
18:58 Right?
18:59 One is building the brands and the other is actually how to sell them.
19:03 And it's people forget the last part because there's a there's a big
19:07 graveyard of brands that have got built got to scale but never fully exited.
19:12 And there's a bigger graveyard of those who just didn't go anywhere.
19:14 And I think part of it, so take my learnings.
19:17 My learnings on Mars were less so cuz I was in manufacturing operations.
19:23 So my learning there was almost like
19:25 the importance of supply chain operations, gross margin,
19:28 like the boring stuff that people forget
19:31 that if you don't have good gross margins,
19:33 you cannot make money and if you can't make money, you go bankrupt.
19:36 And by the way, I've still made that mistake.
19:39 I had an incredible product called Chef's Cut.
19:41 It was a jerky before Chomps.
19:43 Like my buddy invested in Chomps and he and I would joke
19:45 cuz we were like neck and neck and Chef's came out first.
19:49 And I just didn't have great gross margins
19:51 and I should have focused more on that.
19:52 Chef's Cut shut down or got sold for nothing and Chomps
19:56 became a juggernaut and so he keeps laughing at me.
19:58 But I think from from from that perspective, I learned from Mars a little bit.
20:03 You know, and you still make mistakes.
20:05 With Coke, I really I learned how to do
20:07 disruptive marketing and branding cuz I was lucky.
20:10 I was in Sprite back in the heyday when we, you know,
20:13 signed Missy Elliott and Kobe Bryant and I did like
20:16 a bunch of hip-hop stuff and it was it was really cool.
20:19 And then I was in Powerade where Coke didn't care about it.
20:22 So they said, "Do whatever you want." So I learned
20:24 creative disruption early even though I was in a corporate environment.
20:29 And then they fired me cuz I was a little too disruptive.
20:32 And so I went to Vitaminwater and that's where I really started to learn how
20:37 to and that's my second mantra is how to make brands part of pop culture.
20:43 There's a lot of guys who report news.
20:45 Very few people make the news.
20:47 And so for me, with Vitaminwater and Smartwater, I started by making the news.
20:52 And that those brands became part of pop culture.
20:55 That that sounds cool, but what what does that mean?
20:57 Make the news.
20:57 I don't know I'm I'm too dumb to understand that.
21:00 So make the news.
21:01 So the first influencer mega influencer ownership deal I did Cuz remember,
21:07 everything before 50 was very much a sponsorship deal, right?
21:12 You sign a celebrity, they get in, that's the deal, right?
21:15 The equity ownership Arguably, Michael did it in a different way with Nike,
21:18 so but that has come out later and it wasn't really well known then.
21:22 But with 50, I didn't have the money to pay 50.
21:24 He was huge at the time, right?
21:26 And so, I met with F and his manager Chris Lighty and actually there's two
21:30 guys I was looking at for Vitamin Water cuz Vitamin Water was a great brand,
21:33 but it was a kind of little bit uppery side,
21:36 you know, New York preppy brand who wasn't like nationwide cool.
21:40 It It wasn't getting shot in the face nine times cool.
21:42 shot in the face cool and rap about it, yeah.
21:45 Exactly.
21:46 Although it was only eight times cuz one bullet went through twice, but anyway.
21:49 Of course, sorry.
21:50 Uh so, I wanted hip-hop and the two biggest names
21:53 in the world at the time were Curtis Jackson and uh the other.
21:58 It was Jay-Z, right?
22:00 So, those are the two guys who were like the biggest names.
22:02 And so, I called my buddy Seth Rodsky and I said,
22:05 "Seth, you're more connected in this world than I am.
22:09 Who can I get to?" Seth could have got to both,
22:11 but he had a much better relationship with Chris Lighty, 50's manager.
22:15 So, he put me on text with 50's manager.
22:17 A lot of this also for artists, it's their managers getting you.
22:20 So, Chris got it straight away.
22:21 He got the product, he got F.
22:23 He said, "We've not done a deal.
22:24 We're about to do a deal with Reebok, but I'll kill that deal.
22:28 I'll do this with you." That's how I got connected.
22:30 And 50, as we see today, is clearly an entrepreneur.
22:34 Uh also don't invest with him cuz he will come after you with a vengeance.
22:36 So, I think that he got it.
22:38 And I said, I go, "I don't have money,
22:40 but I can give you skin in the game." And he immediately said,
22:42 "Okay, I'm in." And I thought I was going to make him X.
22:47 I kind of think he made 10 X cuz I I did the math wrong, basically.
22:52 He He got what?
22:53 Like 1 2%?
22:54 Something like that in the company?
22:55 I can't tell you exactly what he got, but he cuz we have a deal.
22:57 I don't give the exact number and he doesn't kick the[ __] out of me,
23:00 but um but he made a lot because honestly,
23:04 I gave him enough equity for him to make good
23:08 money if we sold the company for 400 to 500 million.
23:11 That was our goal at Vitamin Water.
23:13 Like I remember Michael Ball, who was the co-founder of Vitamin Water,
23:15 was like, "Bro, put it up on this board.
23:17 If we get to this, this, this, we're going to get to 150 million revenue,
23:21 we're going to sell for 450." Without you can't
23:24 reveal it cuz Curtis Jackson will Curtis Jackson you,
23:27 but will he is it like would it be
23:29 crazy to give someone 10% of a company like that?
23:31 Yeah, 10% would be too high.
23:34 Got it.
23:34 Okay.
23:35 But but what we sold for 4 billion.
23:37 So, you can do the math on, you know, what he would have made.
23:40 It seems like that you know,
23:42 the kind of the influencing influencers or things obviously works,
23:45 obviously makes sense.
23:47 But also obviously goes wrong sometimes, right?
23:50 You know, for example, this podcast, we got bought by HubSpot.
23:54 HubSpot was like, "Yo, we we want to reach entrepreneurs,
23:56 we want them to use our software." So,
23:58 they went to us cuz we influence a lot of entrepreneurs.
24:00 If we influence a million entrepreneurs,
24:02 we're valuable to them and many other brands.
24:04 And so, but there's many people who get that partnership wrong,
24:08 you know, celebrities are busy, they're they're divas,
24:10 they don't really care, maybe you didn't make it incentive enough,
24:13 and it's hard to claw back.
24:14 So, like I guess how confident were you
24:16 and what made it go right versus go wrong?
24:19 I think what makes it go right and happened with 50,
24:22 uh it happened with Jennifer Aniston on Smartwater,
24:25 and I think it happened most recently for me with Alex Ohl on Poppi.
24:30 Uh and the connective tissue that 50, Jennifer,
24:33 and Alex Ohl share is belief in the brand, creative connectivity.
24:39 Like they creatively got the brand and connected with.
24:42 They believed in it, they they creatively connected with it,
24:45 and they went above and beyond.
24:47 Those are the three things when consumers,
24:50 cuz consumers are smart, know, "Okay, that's the real deal." Right?
24:53 Like Alex loves Poppi, I see the cool[ __] she's doing with it.
24:56 And also she's probably the smartest 24-year-old I've ever met.
24:59 Like she knows her brand, knows her DNA, makes me feel old.
25:03 Like she is on it, you know?
25:04 Love of the brand, cultural creative connectivity,
25:08 and then going above and beyond.
25:10 When you're looking at these deals,
25:13 what would you say are the traits that the winners have in common?
25:17 And what would you say the traits are of the losers?
25:20 So, for example, we had this guy named Chad
25:22 who started Gruen on, and he sold it for $2
25:25 Yeah, so he sold it for $2 billion I think
25:28 1.2 1.2 billion dollars in 35 months or something insane.
25:33 And we were like and he was like basically he was like I called my shot.
25:37 I worked at a PE firm and I realized that the TAM needs to be big,
25:40 my CAC to LTV needs to be 1 to 3.
25:43 Like he he's like I kind of had it down to a little bit of a science.
25:46 He didn't say it that way, but that's how I interpreted it.
25:48 What's the science in your head of not for investing,
25:52 but for building a winning product?
25:54 It's similar.
25:55 I mean, one, let's start with big categories, right?
25:58 All right, at Carvoo our game plan is we're basically trying to in a nutshell
26:07 upgrade the products that every everyday
26:10 Americans are using with better quality, right?
26:13 So, I'm not recreating the wheel,
26:17 I'm just giving you a better wheel, that makes sense.
26:20 And so, take the biggest TAMs in food, in beverage, in beauty, and pet.
26:26 And at Carvoo we're like, "Okay, well, you like soda?
26:29 Maybe a Coke or a founders not good for you,
26:31 we're going to upgrade you to a Poppi.
26:33 Do you like pet food?
26:34 Burnt, extruded kibble that has very low nutrient value, ain't good.
26:39 We're going to give you Farmer's Dog, right?
26:41 The goal is how do you give Americans what they used
26:44 to, but elevate it so they can feel better about themselves?
26:48 What are the big TAMs that are left where you're like,
26:51 "We still haven't found the winning kind of brand or product in a certain
26:56 category." Like if I go to that grocery shop or I go to the supermarket,
26:59 where do you see the opportunities right now?
27:01 Which aisle?
27:02 Everywhere.
27:03 Let me explain why.
27:05 Go down every aisle next time you go to the grocery store.
27:07 By the way, my wife gets super pissed at me cuz
27:09 when she sends me out to get stuff in the grocery store,
27:10 I'm like 2 hours later, she's like,
27:12 "Where the hell have you been?" Like, "Honey, this is my business.
27:15 Like, my dumb ass wandering around the grocery
27:17 store figuring out what's broken." But that's the scenario.
27:21 Go down and say, "Okay, would I buy all of these products?" And my guess is if
27:25 you go to a traditional grocery store where most Americans shop today,
27:28 you would probably say, "No, no, no, no, yes." So,
27:32 you have seven nos before you get to a yes.
27:35 Go down the candy aisle.
27:37 Okay, I have an investment in a brand called SkinnyDipped.
27:39 Have you heard about Have you heard of it?
27:40 Yeah, I love those.
27:42 Yeah, they're so addictive.
27:43 Right.
27:44 But almond tab is is okay.
27:46 But it's it's it's chocolate is this almond almond tabs is big.
27:50 Creating sweet treats that don't have guilt, right?
27:55 Is this big.
27:57 So, SkinnyDipped chocolate-covered almonds.
27:59 The brilliance of the founder was after X number of years,
28:02 she's like, "This[ __] ain't working.
28:03 It's doing fine, but my tabs aren't big
28:05 enough." Right to the point you made with Chad.
28:07 She pivoted.
28:08 She created peanut butter cups.
28:10 She created coconut bites and she created wafers.
28:14 You want to name me the three products that do that?
28:16 Reese's, Almond Joy, and Kit Kat.
28:19 By the way, all three of these products sub two grams of sugar.
28:23 So, now I can have, and I do, a coconut bite every day with my coffee or after
28:28 dinner cuz I need a have a sweet fix,
28:31 but zero shits given because it's two grams of sugar.
28:35 You don't care two grams of sugar.
28:36 You give it a kid, you'll have it.
28:38 10 grams, 20 grams, your mind starts clicking a little bit.
28:41 Is it possible to even be more specific when you're walking around the aisle?
28:45 Is there a spot where you're like,
28:47 "This product should be right here on this shelf and it's not?
28:49 Or go go to the confection shelf and say what will I eat?
28:54 And I look down I'm like, almost nothing.
28:56 Cuz everything is fully loaded with sugar and it's really highly processed.
29:00 So now take the process down.
29:03 There's a lot of good stuff that's less processed, better ingredients.
29:07 Can we agree on that?
29:08 There is.
29:08 However, the sugar content is still high.
29:10 So now I evolve from horrible stuff to maybe
29:13 like an Alter Ego chocolate or a huge chocolate.
29:17 They're great, but they've still got a high sugar content.
29:19 So you asked me what I'd do.
29:21 I go sit at the entire confection shelf and put my arms up and just look around.
29:24 What would I eat?
29:26 And the only thing that I can eat is Skinny
29:27 and maybe one one other product because I feel good about it.
29:31 So let me ask you a question.
29:32 You had this great line where you go, the shelf space is the original algorithm.
29:37 The same way that content creators are constantly trying to figure
29:39 out how to get on the YouTube shelf or the Instagram shelf.
29:43 How do I get discovered?
29:44 There it's even harder, arguably,
29:47 because there's a very like mafia-like business practices
29:51 that occurs in behind the scenes of these shelf spaces.
29:54 Like I've walked through one of our events that we do,
29:57 guys have like brands at Target or or or Safeway or whatever.
30:00 We walk through and we do store walks and then they explain, you know, Mr.
30:03 Beast will explain how the candy aisle works.
30:06 He'll explain Mars and Hershey's and the tactics they use
30:08 and what how the color your color blocking your section, etc.
30:12 etc.
30:12 So you get this sort of PhD in each aisle.
30:15 I think his market's a little bit different.
30:17 So you know, you sell like let's say
30:19 Skinny Dip just a little higher price point,
30:21 better for you is like the bigger angle,
30:23 whereas you know, he's I think the number like
30:25 the one of the fastest growing brands in Walmart, right?
30:27 And so his price point has to be a big constraint.
30:30 So he has to play a slightly different game,
30:31 but he's doing a lot of stuff with like
30:33 his better for you isn't in the ingredients, it's in the business practices.
30:36 So like we don't use child labor in the cocoa farms and you know,
30:39 things like that, which is a you know,
30:42 he cares and he's trying to get everyone to care.
30:44 Will it will it change people's purchasing
30:46 purchasing decisions I think is a question.
30:48 But the I guess the the thought process is like how do you get the shelf space?
30:52 Well, I think what so reverse engineer.
30:54 One of the advantage I bring to the mix, right?
30:56 We talked a lot about influencer and so on and so forth.
30:59 The second influencer, and probably as important, is retail buyers.
31:04 And I have now established because I brought
31:06 up run of great products and exits and scale.
31:09 I have great connections with the top people at Walmart,
31:12 Target and Albertsons and Kroger etc.
31:15 And just maintaining those relationships are key because when I bring a product
31:19 that I've invested in or Kavoo's invested in they will give us the shelf space.
31:24 And I think that's a lot of entrepreneurs
31:25 come to us because they're like, "Okay, great.
31:28 I can do X, Y, and Z, but if I just get one meeting with the top guy at Walmart,
31:33 that can inflect, you know, inflect my business in a way that's unique.
31:37 So, I have the relationships now.
31:41 However, retailers are smart and they are
31:44 actually closer to the consumer than big corporations.
31:48 So, they are seeking the products of tomorrow
31:53 while maintaining what I call the brands of yesterday.
31:56 Because you can't eliminate the brands of yesterday.
31:59 Too much money, too much revenue.
32:00 At the same time, you then also have to bridge to the brands of tomorrow.
32:04 And Sam, to your point, let me take Poppy.
32:07 I mean, a regular soda is probably a buck for a can, right?
32:12 A Poppy is probably a buck 60, 70, 80, depending where you buy it, 90.
32:18 Why do you pay the extra 50 cents, 60 cents, 90 cents?
32:22 Probably.
32:23 I'm not It's not like I'm buying a, you know,
32:25 a house a BMW versus I'm buying a a Toyota.
32:28 There's like a 20,000, 30,000 difference there.
32:31 Here, it's a 30, 60, 90 cents difference.
32:34 So, a big part of what I do also is when
32:37 I go to retail is whilst the product might be premium,
32:41 I still want to try and appeal to a large amount
32:43 of Americans in their ability to reach those products where they're attainable.
32:49 And so, I think that the the retailers are looking for brands
32:54 that are attainable even though it's
32:56 a slightly premium that are the future brands.
32:58 You said something earlier that was that was kind of important you go,
33:02 "The third thing I do is how to sell
33:03 it." And there's a huge value swing at the end.
33:07 I've done When me and Sam sold our companies, it's kind of amazing.
33:09 You work 6 years, 7 years, 8 years,
33:12 and then 50% of the value is going to be how good you
33:14 are at this M&A thing at the end that you've never done before,
33:16 but it's the biggest deal of your life.
33:18 And so, I've seen that firsthand how important that is and how it
33:21 is a separate skill set for an entrepreneur that you're very low repetitions in.
33:25 So, it's hard to even get good at it.
33:26 Yeah, it's a it's a really unfair advantage because a a reputable buyer has done
33:30 this many times and it doesn't matter it
33:32 doesn't matter to them necessarily if it fails.
33:34 They'll just get fired worst-case scenario.
33:36 Uh but for you, it like changes your life.
33:38 Completely.
33:39 Yeah, so so how How do you go get Coke to buy a company for $2 billion?
33:43 What do you What do you go What do you do?
33:44 How do those conversations happen?
33:46 Uh how do you negotiate those deals?
33:47 And why do they buy them for so much?
33:50 So, so that's again why I mean,
33:52 I have established and I have relationships everywhere,
33:54 but you know, I have relationships with a lot of big CPGs, right?
33:57 Coke, Pepsi, Hershey, Mondelez, you know, um KDP.
34:03 So, I've done that over time.
34:04 A lot of these guys I've either worked for, worked with over time
34:09 cuz I've been doing this now over 25 years in the industry, right?
34:12 Maybe longer.
34:14 And so, relationships with the top guys is critical.
34:16 And so, you know, uh with One Bar, I walked them in back in the day to Hershey
34:22 to the CEO of Hershey at the time, right?
34:24 I didn't negotiate the Vitamin Water deal.
34:27 Uh the founder of Vitamin Water,
34:28 Darius did brilliantly and I learned from him, by the way.
34:31 So, I'm on the sidelines watching this guy go to town.
34:34 I brought Coke to the table.
34:36 So, I called Coke because I used to work for them.
34:38 Sandy Douglas, mentor of mine, he brought the CEO, he was the president,
34:42 and they negotiated with Darius, and I saw what he did, and I learned from that.
34:47 Out of that negotiation, what was one thing you picked up?
34:50 If you have a great brand,
34:52 you it's okay to be slightly unhinged on your expectation.
34:56 Like when he said the number starts with a four, I almost fell off my chair.
35:01 I'm like, "Did he just say four?" I'm like,
35:02 "No, four B." And Coke came right back at 4.1.
35:05 I'm like, "All right, guy." He, you know,
35:08 I I sometimes you get nervous cuz there's a fine line, guys.
35:11 This is Sean, you made such a great point.
35:14 You spend anywhere from 4 to 10, 15 years building your baby,
35:19 and then the finish line is where the where the money is made,
35:24 and so sometimes you get scared because if you overreach,
35:27 which I've also done, and you fail, you might be catching a falling knife.
35:31 But if you under the reach,
35:33 then you keep kicking yourself with how much you left on the table.
35:35 Dial in on that.
35:36 That's interesting because, hey,
35:38 knowing if you have a great brand is actually kind of challenging,
35:40 but overreaching and underreaching, that is also very nuanced.
35:43 Is there like Is there like some more specific details
35:46 that you can give on how you know Like for example,
35:49 do you look at comps and you say,
35:51 "We're just going to be the top quartile." What do you do?
35:54 Yeah, it's a very good question.
35:55 Timing is everything, by the way, right?
35:57 Like Pop Bee sold for half of what Vitamin Water did,
36:00 except Vitamin Pop Bee grew faster than Vitamin Water.
36:03 It's a bigger scale brand than Vitamin Water ever was,
36:06 but timing was different, right?
36:08 At that time, there was a willingness,
36:11 and the money was more in liquidity was freedom and greater to pay more, right?
36:15 So, and risks were different.
36:17 So, I think the same with tech valuations, right?
36:20 People were investing in 20 2021 at bonkers values, then slowed down,
36:25 and now AI is also not So, there's a there's a timing mechanism.
36:28 So, you should have belief and faith in who you are,
36:31 but do not always benchmark against the biggest number you've seen.
36:35 And that's the danger entrepreneurs have.
36:37 They're like, "Oh, this company sold for seven times revenue.
36:40 I'm going for seven, and if I don't get it,
36:42 I'm out." I'm like, "Bro, take it easy.
36:44 Beauty's in the eye of the beholder." And at some point,
36:47 when you're ready, you're going to have X number of beholders.
36:50 And if they say your beauty is 600 million, that's your beauty.
36:55 Now, you can take a risk and pass and wait for a bigger number, and that's okay.
37:00 But, the groups that pass and wait for a bigger number are few and far between,
37:05 and they don't always work out.
37:07 Some do.
37:08 I also think that there's a there's definitely like a a je ne sais quoi,
37:11 there's a there's a showmanship that is involved here.
37:13 It's very I've only I've known you now for 57 minutes.
37:18 You have it.
37:19 You have a likeability, a charisma, whatever it is you want to call it.
37:23 Are you in the room negotiating these deals?
37:26 Uh in some I am.
37:27 So, with Pop Beauty,
37:29 uh we bought a It's It's always a good to You have to have a banker.
37:32 And bankers have done this, right?
37:33 So, get a good banker, you know, get good reps.
37:36 So, we had Goldman Sachs with with Pop Beauty,
37:39 I built a great relationship with them.
37:41 They actually brought Pepsi to the table initially,
37:44 and without getting into it, the number in the offer was inadequate.
37:47 So, I did what I said is a risky move,
37:51 which is I walked cuz I didn't like the construct of the deal.
37:55 Uh and then someone else came to the table.
37:58 I also walked cuz I didn't like the construct of the deal.
38:01 And if you probably speak to Steven Allison,
38:03 they were probably getting nervous at this point because,
38:05 you know, I was blessed to have had exits before.
38:08 They hadn't had any,
38:09 and even Stevie was losing it at one point because they're like,
38:13 "This is life-changing money that Rose saying no to." But, I
38:17 just didn't like the construct cuz it wasn't a full buyout.
38:20 The the earn outs were And so, third time's a charm.
38:23 So, when Pepsi came back I ended up negotiating that directly with them.
38:29 Did it change your life, too?
38:31 Yeah, it's you know you when you have a massive win like
38:34 this you always have to step back and realize how blessed you are,
38:38 not take it for granted, see what you could do for others and those around you.
38:42 And a good thing for me was I let a lot of people into the deal.
38:45 So it wasn't just me.
38:47 I had [snorts]
38:48 family, friends, one of my closest childhood friends was in the deal.
38:52 And so when you affect other people beyond yourself,
38:55 that's that's huge, you know.
38:57 You said a bunch of things earlier that I want
39:00 to ask you like the same question but with a different caveat.
39:05 So sometimes I'll be like, "Hey,
39:06 how do you sell this company?" Like, "Well, I called the guy.
39:08 I know him." "How do you get on the shelf?" "Well,
39:10 they know me and I know them." And like
39:12 that's true and great and an extreme advantage today,
39:16 but it two two problems.
39:18 One, you didn't wake up you weren't born with that.
39:21 You earned that somehow.
39:22 And the second is it's not you
39:24 know most entrepreneurs don't have that advantage.
39:26 If they don't partner with you, you know,
39:27 just in general people have to figure out how do you survive?
39:29 No one's going to come save you.
39:31 Do you have an insane hustle story from the beginning?
39:33 Cuz that's what gets me excited.
39:34 After this I'm going to go work and nothing
39:37 fires me up more than a good hustle story.
39:39 You have to have hustle at every stage, by the way.
39:44 So I'll give you a puppy story which is later.
39:46 I've had a bunch of exits, but I'm still hustling.
39:48 Because guess what?
39:49 People change out of roles in corporation.
39:51 So when I say I know people, historically I've used bankers, I've used brokers,
39:56 I've used people who are in the industry
39:58 which you have to use as an entrepreneur.
40:00 You've got to build a relationship with with everybody
40:03 so that they get you in the room.
40:05 And then when you get your shot you make it work.
40:07 So I'll give a shout out to my buddy Danny Stepper.
40:09 I don't know Danny.
40:10 Danny's kind of a legend of the beverage industry.
40:13 I went to the beverage forum just finished yesterday.
40:16 It's probably the best in conference
40:18 in and any beverage entrepreneur should be there.
40:20 It's the best beverage conference in America.
40:23 And I I went there 2 years ago.
40:26 And Danny said, "Ro, would you speak?" I said, "Yes, I'll speak.
40:30 But, there's a butt in this thing.
40:32 I need a Walmart and a Target meeting while I'm at your conference."
40:37 And he had some of the lead guys from Walmart and Target.
40:41 They don't know me like at me.
40:43 They know of me, but it's not like just cuz I walk in there.
40:46 They're still Walmart.
40:46 They're like, "Ro, screw you.
40:48 We're Walmart." And so, I went in and I danced.
40:51 Me, Allison, Chris Hall, the the CEO, and I danced.
40:56 And I danced the Modern Soda dance because we were sucking wind at Walmart.
41:01 We were doing everything else.
41:03 And I'm like, "This is my one shot." And I came in and I painted the vision.
41:07 I said, "Guys, this is not prebiotic soda.
41:10 This is Modern Soda for tomorrow's generation." And I made a full story.
41:14 And the light bulb went off at Walmart's head.
41:16 And the head buyer, well, amazing guy,
41:19 right away believed in the vision, got behind it.
41:23 His boss, Melanie, was a rock star at Walmart,
41:25 accelerated it from 2025 into end of '24.
41:29 And Poppi did this.
41:31 That was the moment Poppi went into explosive growth mode.
41:35 And I'm doing the hustle.
41:36 I'm doing the dance.
41:38 And by the way, I've been pretty successful.
41:40 But if you come in with an ego and you don't want to do the dance for retailers,
41:43 regardless who you are, they don't give two shits.
41:46 I know that Cavu is incredibly successful now.
41:49 I know that I I believe it's many billion-dollar funds.
41:52 You've had multi-billion-dollar exits.
41:54 And I know that you started like in the Mars factory,
41:57 like I think you said counting M&M's.
42:00 The show is called my Sorry, Twix.
42:02 Uh the show is called uh My First Million.
42:05 I don't know like the middle ground.
42:07 What did you do to make your first million?
42:09 Because was it investing your own money in brands?
42:11 Was it because you got equity in Vitamin Water?
42:14 My first million So, I got fired from Coke.
42:17 Um too creative disruptive.
42:20 And I went to this no-name company called Vitamin Water.
42:24 In fact, I sent a bunch of product to my friends, they didn't even drink it.
42:27 That's the power of brand, by the way.
42:28 They didn't drink it and 2 years later the same jackasses called me,
42:32 "Ro, Vitamin Water is huge.
42:33 My kids love it." I'm like, "Dude, I sent that to you 2 years ago.
42:35 You never said[ __] to me." Anyway, so I put my own money in.
42:39 I borrowed from my dad.
42:40 So, I'm broke as a joke and I borrowed from my dad and I get equity.
42:45 And so I went from you know,
42:48 fumes in my bank account cuz I was basically spending everything I
42:51 was making to the Vitamin Water exit and that was my first
42:55 million or more than that, but it was putting everything that I
42:58 had and I think that's honestly where you make a big bet,
43:02 you put everything into it and if it works out,
43:04 that's kind of where you get your biggest paydays.
43:07 Did you raise money for a fund right after that?
43:09 Were you like, "No, I'm going
43:09 No, I did my own thing.
43:11 So, I did Vitamin Water, Smartwater.
43:13 I exited.
43:14 I had my own money, so what's the phrase they say?
43:16 You invest off your balance sheet?
43:18 Some[ __] finance phrase.
43:19 So, anyway, yes, I invested off my balance sheet, meaning I went in solo, Rohan,
43:24 into Vita Coco, into Bai,
43:26 into Popchips and Stevie was my right hand wing woman in this case.
43:31 And so she was my She learned marketing from me.
43:34 We did it together and now she's the head of marketing for Kavoo.
43:37 That's really interesting and what I'm asking you is really personal,
43:39 so you can avoid it or you can give as much information as you want,
43:42 but I find that to be cool and there's a lot of people listening who are like,
43:45 "I would like to make a little bit of money and spend
43:47 a little bit of money doing what this guy is doing.
43:48 That's badass.
43:49 I don't want to start a fund yet." Are you able to give any type
43:51 of numbers as to what you had when
43:53 you started investing in Popchips and all these companies?
43:55 Yeah, I got I can give you a range.
43:57 I was investing anywhere from probably half a million to 2 million.
44:02 That's a shitload for an angel investment.
44:04 Yeah, I wasn't that smart, dude.
44:06 I was a little bit unhinged.
44:07 I had Long term, I worked out great.
44:10 I don't advocate you go that heavy.
44:12 Were you really rich?
44:13 No, I was just I was a I think I bet on myself a little too much.
44:18 So, yeah, I had a lot more money than that, but I
44:21 think you have to be willing to lose if you're going to win.
44:25 Did you tell yourself like, okay, I'm I'm willing to lose 10 million bucks,
44:29 but I'm going to bet I'm going to bet
44:31 on myself to go make a few concentrated bets?
44:33 Did you Did you sort of mentally partition like this is loseable money
44:36 or you just You were just going and you didn't even think about it?
44:39 of stress.
44:39 So, basically, I was kind of doing the math.
44:42 I'm like, okay, I'm in for this, I'm in for this, I'm in for this.
44:45 And then like you know, X years later,
44:47 I'm like, well, you know, I mean, you know,
44:50 I'm in for 10, but I've made, you know, 10 times that, so I think I'm good.
44:54 You know what I'm saying?
44:54 So, it's like it's a what It was organic.
44:57 Like you know, what what percent man math?
44:59 I like it.
44:59 What percent What prin- For the principal, not the markups,
45:02 what percent of your liquid net worth was in private deals?
45:05 Yeah, a lot.
45:06 I also I should really should have done a better job with my publics.
45:10 I was very like into my private cuz I'd made my money on private,
45:13 so it far too high a percentage.
45:15 like Was it like all?
45:17 No, no, it's probably probably about a third though.
45:19 I mean, I guess Okay, okay.
45:20 I don't know.
45:21 Like I don't know.
45:21 It was a decent amount.
45:22 I can't remember exactly.
45:23 I was rolling heavy.
45:24 I was like in my 30s.
45:26 And like PopChips was a great brand and I bet
45:29 on that, but I didn't understand the importance of a pref stack.
45:33 They were just going bets and then like going out and hustling on your behalf.
45:36 You're like, hey, I'm going to beverage forum and I'm just
45:38 going to figure out how to wheel and deal a little bit.
45:40 Yeah, I was working with these companies.
45:42 Like I would help the PopChips guys with influencers.
45:44 We You know, all with marketing or team.
45:47 Like I'd bring in the head of sales or the head of marketing
45:49 or You were free You were like a free hire a little bit.
45:52 Yeah, I was like I'm like, let me in.
45:53 I'll help you out.
45:54 Sometimes I got an equity for helping.
45:56 And so, the good news is my hits in in VitaCoco,
46:00 the coconut water, Bai, Vital Proteins, and Poppy far outstripped whatever loss
46:10 the the order of winners was Vitamin Water,
46:12 you did that with you did it with Smartwater,
46:15 and then what was the order the next five deals?
46:18 Uh I did Vitamin Smart, then I did Vita Coco, the coconut water, which is great.
46:24 Cavan is an incredible operator.
46:25 Did that exit?
46:26 __] the guy's got with the company worth two
46:28 and a half billion on the public stock exchange.
46:30 Stock market.
46:31 Oh, wow, I didn't know that.
46:32 Okay, wow.
46:32 With a thing like coconut water, right?
46:34 Like my my business partner Ben,
46:36 he's been trying to get me to drink freaking banana water.
46:39 He's like, "Oh, banana water." And I do it's nasty.
46:41 Can't believe he likes it, but he's like,
46:42 "Banana water, that's the next coconut water." I'm like,
46:44 "I don't think it is." How do you spot the real trends versus the false trends?
46:47 Are you just trusting your own taste buds?
46:49 Or is it some research you're doing?
46:51 Are you watching what high schoolers are doing?
46:53 Like what what are you doing to see
46:54 figure out real trend versus fizzle out trend?
46:57 Yeah, taste buds and time.
46:59 Coconut water wasn't a coconut water time.
47:01 It was a hydration time.
47:03 Mhm.
47:03 Right?
47:04 Taste buds, and maybe it's bad cuz I'm of Indian origin,
47:07 I like coconut water, but but let's be honest, I got in early.
47:10 I got out at a $700 million valuation.
47:14 Right?
47:14 So, I got in at I don't know 30, so I made 20 times my money.
47:18 The thing's now worth north of two billion.
47:21 So, I didn't have the vision that Mike has, who's a CEO founder,
47:25 that this could be north of a two billion dollar public company.
47:28 No chance I had that vision.
47:30 I was cuz to me the TAM was limited by the taste of coconut water in America.
47:34 So, I sometimes you knowing when to hold them, you knowing when to fold them.
47:38 So, I got out.
47:39 I made good money.
47:40 I can I will never begrudge the money that I could have made, I but I got it.
47:44 So, the I was out on that one.
47:47 But then, you know, but then I got into Bai, and I rode Bai all the way.
47:52 And the founder Ben is super smart, and he I got him introduced to KDP,
47:57 and he built a brilliant relationship with the CEO of KDP,
48:01 and then sold that for 1.7 billion.
48:03 I think one of the great tests of marketing is can you sell water?
48:09 [laughter] How do you sell water?
48:10 Right?
48:10 What's the There's a marketing genius about figuring out how to sell water,
48:14 and not just once, how to sell it many times in many different ways.
48:18 And so I've only done one water, by the way.
48:20 I've done many beverages, but only one water.
48:22 Okay.
48:22 Well, so Vitaminwater not a water.
48:24 Yeah, Vitaminwater is flavored, right?
48:26 Poppy's flavored.
48:27 Vita Coco buy, they're all flavored.
48:29 Like when you just straight water,
48:31 I still don't know how the hell I did that, but um I'll take a crack.
48:35 The founder Darius created Smartwater with a really good story,
48:39 which is vapor distilled water.
48:41 It's how water is made in in the world, right?
48:45 Water evaporates from the ocean, goes up, hydrogen and oxygen separate,
48:49 all the impurities fall out, it comes back to earth,
48:52 that first drop of rainwater before it enters the atmosphere
48:54 and before it hits the ground, that's pure water.
48:57 So that was the initial vision behind Smartwater.
49:00 The packaging was all great, it was invisible, so I redo the package.
49:03 The current package was me and my team that sits on shelf today.
49:06 Then we did the influencer strategy,
49:08 and I felt that Evian was the only player in America that was in premium water.
49:14 But it's a French company and was in plastic being shipped across the ocean,
49:19 it didn't make sense, and neither did Fiji being shipped from basically Fiji.
49:23 Like why can't we have a premium American water
49:26 that has And the thing is your water is a badge.
49:29 When you walk around with the water more than anything else,
49:31 it's a little bit of a reflection of you, right?
49:34 That's why at home, who cares?
49:36 You buy the case packs at Costco and 24 packs for like $2.
49:41 But when you're walking around, you want a little bit of a a different badge.
49:44 And I think with the team I had
49:47 uh Jennifer Aniston became the face of the brand, the the new packaging we did.
49:51 Smart became this like go-to accessory particularly
49:56 for women and the brand took off.
49:58 And I think when Coke bought Vitamin Water of you awesome today,
50:02 the brand that that has worked out for them is Smartwater not Vitamin Water.
50:05 And is what is there something to this idea of placement?
50:08 So like I remember when Beats by Dre came out and it
50:11 was this headphone brand just like many other Bose and others.
50:15 But instead of going for audio files,
50:16 everywhere you saw it was basically hip-hop
50:18 artists and athletes walking into the stadium.
50:20 And it became like synonymous with like the pre-game
50:23 lock-in associated with the coolest athletes and and and artists.
50:28 And like that was a they created billions of dollars of value
50:32 by a by that association that placement
50:34 of the pre-game or the walk-in at least for me.
50:37 Um and I think that I've read stories
50:39 about Grey Goose and and some of the liquor
50:41 brands where they would put it in the limousines
50:43 of the after-parties of the Oscars and just
50:45 where it was seen was almost just as important as the story of how it was triple
50:50 filtered and distilled cuz nobody actually ends up
50:52 knowing that[ __] They just see where it's seen.
50:54 Um did you ever use that tactic or what is that?
50:57 That was huge for me back in the day.
51:00 So now this strategy is done really through social digital, right?
51:04 So digital influences when when the all top sororities are running
51:09 around posting Poppi and having it at the sorority kickoff parties.
51:13 I have an army of amazing college ambassadors
51:16 and Poppi is the number one drink on college campuses.
51:20 day like Red Bull playbook basically.
51:22 Yeah, but it's kind of a better for you feel-good
51:24 vibe and definitely works better for women than you know,
51:27 like from a from a connection standpoint.
51:29 So but back in the day I did this with the Oscars, with the Golden Globes.
51:34 Smartwater was the first water on the table at the Golden Globes before they
51:39 were pouring it out of just a and so I did a deal with them.
51:41 So suddenly every table you go to you're seeing a Smartwater there.
51:45 And then Vitamin I used to sponsor mainly because I wanted to go to the parties.
51:49 So, Patrick Whitesell, I'm a friend of Patrick's,
51:51 he's too big time now, but Patrick Endeavor, right?
51:54 used to throw the coolest post Oscar parties, um,
52:00 it Oscar and VMA, Golden Globe parties in LA.
52:03 So, just for me to get to access to those things, I would sponsor them.
52:06 But, the good news is all the I like I remember going to one and it
52:10 was back in [clears throat] what I call round one of J.Lo and Affleck dating.
52:14 And I was at the party and like J.Lo and Affleck are there.
52:17 And everyone was really vibing with her back then.
52:20 This is like 2003, you know?
52:22 2004.
52:23 So, I think you're dead right.
52:25 In the early days, especially with products, they've got to appear in people's
52:30 lifestyle areas as both physically and digitally.
52:34 You're a hustler.
52:34 I didn't I didn't realize how big of a hustler you are.
52:37 If you lose your hustle, you lose your edge.
52:38 Like, the guy who Shawn and I know, Gulrez,
52:41 who's the CEO of, Jim Khanna Fine Foods, like he's like, "Bro,
52:45 you are bloody intense." Like, when I get in a sessions with him,
52:47 he's like, "I thought you just chilled out.
52:49 You're a father.
52:50 You're successful." I'm like, "Bro, it's go time.
52:52 Like, we're building your empire.
52:53 Let's, you know, there's no you got to have
52:55 a hustle mode." And I think also founders respect that.
52:58 So, I want to ask you a little bit of a different question.
53:01 I'm obsessed with brands that last a long time.
53:04 I'm also a massive American history buff.
53:06 And some of the best brands in America, you know,
53:08 they've been around for over a century, Coke,
53:11 Snickers, M&M's, like brands that you've worked with.
53:14 I think Mars is like a $50 billion a year business that's family owned.
53:17 Hershey's is run by I think run by a family trust.
53:19 I think they do something like 10 or 20 billion a year in revenue.
53:22 And these brands, you know, everyone talks about getting healthy,
53:25 but like Reese's probably isn't going to go away for the next 50 years.
53:28 Coke is probably not going to go away for 100 years.
53:30 And also, you've worked with startups.
53:32 Is there anything that I or Shawn or the listener can learn
53:36 from these old big companies that have been around for 100 plus years?
53:41 Yeah, look, they do a very good job of two things.
53:45 Uh They're managing their installed base.
53:49 So, they have fantastic retail presence.
53:52 And they do, in my opinion,
53:54 when I great marketing to maintain relevance for their brands.
53:58 It's almost I'm always shocked how well they do it in a world
54:02 where technically you shouldn't be eating or drinking any of those products.
54:06 However, where they are smart,
54:08 and I give Pepsi credit for this, they do go out and buy the future as well.
54:13 Like Pepsi bought Poppi not cuz it's a apple cider vinegar beverage,
54:16 because they're seeing the vision.
54:18 Look, this could [clears throat] be right up there, and they've said it to me,
54:21 this between like Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Poppi,
54:24 that should be this their their soda lineup.
54:26 And choose what you want.
54:27 If you feel like having a Pepsi, great.
54:29 And by the way, the growth is all coming, Sam, from their zero sugar products.
54:32 So, it's not coming from core Coca-Cola, Pepsi.
54:35 It's Pepsi Zero.
54:36 Yeah, correct.
54:37 Pepsi Zero's crushing it, Coke Zero's crushing it.
54:39 And so, Poppi fits into that realm.
54:40 So, they see that.
54:43 You still maintain your legacy,
54:44 but you have to make sure you pick up the future,
54:48 otherwise you will get left behind.
54:50 And so, I think you're seeing it.
54:51 Like Unilever bought Unilever Boy, Grooming's, right?
54:54 Like that they're buying the future.
54:56 There's a lot of M&A.
54:57 Hershey just bought LesserEvil.
54:59 Like that they are buying the future,
55:01 and I think they but they're getting a little
55:03 savvier and a little wiser in how they do it.
55:06 Before they would build get brands that I don't think were built to last.
55:11 And now, to your point, Sam,
55:12 I think they're trying to find brands that are built to last.
55:15 And for me, if we look at all the exits we've been a part
55:18 of, whether those brands continue growing 40% or just maintain a good scale,
55:23 Vitamin Smart, Poppi, Vital Proteins, By Farmer's Dog,
55:28 like all these are still Once Upon a Farm, you know, we IPO'd that brand.
55:31 We They're all still there.
55:33 And that they will be here if managed right for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years.
55:39 Sean had a good question that he was telling me that he had for you,
55:42 but I'm going to ask it and uh He hasn't gotten He hasn't gotten to it yet.
55:46 of guy I am.
55:47 He hasn't gotten to it yet.
55:48 a gifted He's a gifted.
55:50 Yeah, I'm going to steal it from him and uh it was
55:52 basically um if a young guy were to go and shadow you,
55:55 what would they be uh surprised about how you spend your time?
55:58 Shadow you for like a day or a week, yeah.
56:01 It's a quick question, Sean.
56:02 So, a few things.
56:03 I think what allows me that I think they will be
56:06 a little surprised of how I can change lanes so rapidly.
56:11 So, part of my success and part of my failures uh are around my ADD.
56:17 So, I can go from five different
56:19 company conversations with different founders to then figuring
56:23 out the plumbing problem in my house to the new house that I'm trying to buy,
56:28 but getting screwed on with the price.
56:29 Like, I can change lanes and gears very rapidly and be fully engaged.
56:34 And but by the end of it, I'm I'm exhausted, right?
56:37 My brain shut off and then I have to watch
56:40 TV to unlock to to sort of calm it down.
56:43 So, one of the things they'll find is
56:44 how I'm rapidly able to change change lanes.
56:47 The second thing is even though I
56:50 personally don't operate at a detailed level personally,
56:54 they'll be surprised at how detailed I get with the brands
56:58 and the founders I partner with because I have great recall of information.
57:04 And so, they're surprised.
57:07 Sometimes the founders think I've forgotten something from like
57:10 a month ago when I asked him about it.
57:11 You can ask Al Rez, he's a classic.
57:13 We're like, "Three weeks ago we spoke about this.
57:14 Where are you on this?" He's like, "Shit,
57:16 how did you remember that?" He thought because
57:18 I forgot to come back, he could ignore me.
57:20 And so, my ability to recall and retain info because you
57:25 have to go deep with founders cuz if you go shallow,
57:27 you're not helping them out.
57:28 It's got to be meaningful stuff that helps impact the business.
57:31 And the third thing um is I'm blessed to be living a great lifestyle.
57:35 I you know, I'm living the American dream, right?
57:37 I'm an immigrant that came here and and did well,
57:40 but I also am able to do high low, right?
57:42 So, from where I eat, I mean, I'm you know,
57:45 the taco stand or what I where I go, I go and do the grocery shopping.
57:49 I'm not sending someone.
57:51 I'm like I'm there, I'm picking stuff up
57:53 cuz I think if you don't live in reality,
57:56 you you you then can't operate in reality.
57:58 You kind of end up in this 1% world, which doesn't help uh when you're dealing
58:04 with products that deal with all Americans.
58:07 I was talking to a a buddy of ours who's a a brilliant marketer.
58:10 They probably sold a billion dollars of products online,
58:13 and he I opened up my laptop,
58:15 and he saw that I had ad blocker on, and he's like,
58:18 "How could you?" He's like, "You're a marketer.
58:20 He's like, you have study your craft.
58:23 Sit through every ad." He He logged in and another guy logged into his Facebook,
58:27 and he's on Facebook, he's a woman.
58:29 Uh like his profile is his, but he told Facebook, "I'm a woman." cuz he's like,
58:32 "I want to see what they're marketing
58:33 to a 40-year-old [clears throat] woman in America.
58:35 That's That's the prime target.
58:37 I need to see who's What's the messaging?" And I was like,
58:41 "There's levels to this game of intensity and detail." What do you stink at?
58:45 Where's your weakness in business?
58:47 I think sometimes I may have too much belief.
58:49 You know, when you love a product and you like you kind
58:52 of have faith that blinds you a little bit to the to the whether
58:57 it's the whether it's the founder you you think is amazing or whether
59:00 you love you're not overly focused on the gross margins because you know,
59:04 I'm a big Field of Dreams guys, build it and they will come.
59:08 But if you don't build it correctly, I feel the dream won't come.
59:14 And sometimes when I love something a lot,
59:16 I end up um ignoring some of the red flags.
59:20 So, I think uh passion is a super important element,
59:25 but you passion at all costs can be dangerous.
59:29 Let's leave it with this.
59:31 Well, we're in the business of stealing questions.
59:33 Patrick O'Shaughnessy has this great question he asked the guest
59:36 at the end of every one of his Invest Like the Best episodes.
59:39 He He asked the guest, he said, "What's the kindest thing anyone's ever done
59:42 for you in your career?" And I'm just curious,
59:44 what what what comes to mind when I say that?
59:46 Like, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you?
59:49 Kindest thing anyone's done for me.
59:52 I should shout Shout out to a guy.
59:53 I was probably two of them.
59:55 I've been adopted a couple of times.
59:57 One time was at Coca-Cola when I was about to leave
1:00:03 cuz they gave me a brand called Box Wood Beer.
1:00:05 You know that?
1:00:06 Like, remember I told you I have a few mantras?
1:00:08 One of my mantras is influence the influencer.
1:00:10 The other is become a part of pop culture.
1:00:12 The third one is live the brand.
1:00:14 Well, I can't live Box Wood Beer.
1:00:16 I don't understand it.
1:00:17 I grew up in Zambia.
1:00:18 I bloody hate root beer.
1:00:20 So, I was on Sprite.
1:00:21 Someone demoted demoted me.
1:00:25 Uh and I ran Box.
1:00:26 And two guys, and I was about to leave,
1:00:29 and my career would have been toast cuz I was
1:00:31 going to some travel.com[ __] site that ended up folding.
1:00:35 And two guys, a guy called Todd Botman and a guy called Daryl Cobbins,
1:00:40 kind of heard that I was leaving, saved me.
1:00:44 Said, "We'll give you something different.
1:00:45 Don't leave." They put me on Powerade.
1:00:48 And that changed the trajectory of of my career once.
1:00:53 And then when I got to Vitamin Water, I was doing great.
1:00:56 I took over all the marketing, but you know,
1:00:58 the founder and I kind of had different visions on how to market.
1:01:02 Um and [clears throat] I don't think he liked my approach,
1:01:05 but I was the one who was bringing the heat to the brand.
1:01:08 And I think he wanted to fire me at one point.
1:01:10 And so, Mike Repole, he was the president of the company,
1:01:13 changed reporting structure and put me under him.
1:01:17 So, that cuz he and I got along great.
1:01:19 He said, "Look, take ego aside.
1:01:21 Either you want to report to the CEO and get fired,
1:01:23 or you report to me and I got you cuz now you're my guy.
1:01:26 And so I said I want money, I don't want ego.
1:01:29 So I reported to Mike and I still run marketing,
1:01:31 but had the founder clarified me, right?
1:01:34 I was an employee at will,
1:01:36 that would have also changed the trajectory of my career.
1:01:39 So So this is only the second podcast that you've done, is that right?
1:01:42 Yeah, correct.
1:01:44 Dude, thanks for coming on.
1:01:45 Where should people go find you if they want to follow more,
1:01:47 you know, get get more of what you're doing?
1:01:50 You know what?
1:01:50 It's It's a really good question and it's a horrible answer.
1:01:54 You actually can't go anywhere yet other than you guys and one of the podcasts.
1:01:58 have social media?
1:01:59 Subscribe to this podcast if you [laughter] if you want to see him again.
1:02:03 The last one that was like that was Bryan Johnson.
1:02:05 He came on and he was just He was just hacking on his own body and his own
1:02:09 privacy of his own home and then he came on this podcast and uh so you know,
1:02:13 maybe you'll have a Netflix documentary soon.
1:02:15 I don't know.
1:02:15 I can I can reverse the age by 20 years.
1:02:18 My wife would love that.
1:02:19 We were his first podcast and you know, Sean,
1:02:22 I don't know if I ever told you this.
1:02:23 He called me last year and he was, "Hey,
1:02:26 I just wanted to thank you because you were
1:02:27 the first podcast that I ever did and you
1:02:30 guys asked me a lot of really hard questions
1:02:31 that I never even I never even thought about.
1:02:34 Uh and so A, I'm thankful for you for doing that and B,
1:02:36 when I saw the response, I was like, 'Oh, I should do media.' Right.
1:02:41 And I should go hard.
1:02:41 This works.
1:02:42 It's crazy and look what he's done.
1:02:44 So you guys are the influence Remember the one in 10?
1:02:47 You are the one in 10 guys.
1:02:48 My my contrarian belief about Bryan Johnson is is
1:02:51 that Bryan Johnson is the greatest marketer alive right now.
1:02:54 Possibly.
1:02:54 I think he understands social media at a level
1:02:57 that I don't know anybody else does.
1:02:59 It's kind of really cool.
1:03:01 but yeah.
1:03:03 [laughter] Yeah, exactly.
1:03:03 All right, thanks for coming on.
1:03:04 You're awesome.
1:03:05 Pleasure.
1:03:05 Thanks for taking the time.
1:03:06 All right, that's it.
1:03:07 That's the pod.
1:03:27 Mhm.