How to make $10k/month from a community - Jordan Godbey

0:00 Maybe you feel really misunderstood because everyone around

0:02 you in your day job loves the day job.

0:04 You can't speak badly about it.

0:05 You can't say I want to leave and do my own thing.

0:07 But in this private online community, you can.

0:09 What you're about to hear is a conversation between me and Jordan Gotby.

0:13 Now, Jordan specializes in helping creators start,

0:15 build, and monetize thriving online communities.

0:19 And so in this interview,

0:19 we talk all about what it takes to build a thriving online community and how

0:23 you could potentially be making $10,000 a month

0:26 and even beyond from an online community.

0:28 A lot of us know what we need to do.

0:30 We just need to sit down and do it.

0:32 So, how do we create an environment and opportunity

0:35 for people just to sit down and do the work?

0:37 And that alone provides massive value for people.

0:40 We talk about the pros and cons of online community as a business model.

0:43 And we talk about a bunch of things to consider if you are trying

0:45 to make money and trying to build

0:47 this sort of thriving online community business.

0:49 There will be times in there that it's going to get really hard.

0:52 And you maybe want to give up.

0:54 Maybe you only actually want to give up in the moment,

0:56 you know, because you actually said, "I want to achieve that thing." But there

0:59 will be times where it becomes uncomfortable.

1:01 And so, if your goal as the creator is to truly help people,

1:06 then you're going to have to help them through those hard moments as well.

1:12 Oh, by the way, before we get into this episode,

1:14 I would love to tell you a little bit about Life Notes.

1:16 Now, Life Notes is a weekly-ish email that I send completely

1:19 for free to my subscribers and it contains my notes from life.

1:22 So, notes from books that I've read,

1:23 podcasts I'm listening to, conversations I'm having,

1:25 and experiences I'm having in work and in life.

1:27 And around once a week,

1:28 I write these up and share them in an email with my subscribers.

1:31 So, if you would like to get an email from me that contains

1:33 the stuff that I'm learning almost in real time as I'm learning it,

1:36 you might like to subscribe.

1:37 There is a link down in the show notes or in the video description.

1:41 All right, Jordan, welcome to the podcast.

1:43 Thanks, man.

1:44 It's great to be here.

1:44 This is going to be fun.

1:45 So, we are going to get people apparently a roadmap for how

1:49 a normal person can get to $10,000 a month through online communities.

1:54 Yeah.

1:55 Now, this seems I did an episode with Jay

1:57 Clouse and I was a little bit like that was

1:59 more like a coaching session where he sort of coached

2:00 me on what we do with with Productivity Lab.

2:03 But I kind of want this to be

2:04 imagining we've got someone who's like a normal person.

2:07 Let's say me when I was 26 and I had a day job.

2:10 And I'm like, "Oh, you know, I enjoy the job,

2:13 but I would love to build some sort of business on the side.

2:16 And this goal of $10,000 a month seems to be a thing, at least on YouTube,

2:20 where people feel like, "Okay, if I can get to 10K a month,

2:22 I'll be able to comfortably quit my job." And probably most people listening

2:26 to this, if you can make $10,000 a month with a side business,

2:28 you know, you probably feel like, "Damn, yeah,

2:30 maybe I could quit my job and have freedom and all that fun stuff." So,

2:34 how does someone get to 10K a month using a community?

2:37 Like, where do we start?

2:39 Yeah, so a lot of times I see people just

2:42 coming up with an idea and they're like, "Would this work?

2:44 Could I make $10,000 a month using this idea?"

2:47 And that's not really the best way to do it, right?

2:49 You have an idea in search of a problem or in search of someone's dollars.

2:52 And what you really want is to solve a problem that already exists.

2:56 And when you do that, you can very easily

2:59 put value to that and sell people on that.

3:02 Okay.

3:03 So, you want to solve a problem that already exists.

3:06 Um okay, cuz a lot of people will be listening to this thinking,

3:09 "Okay, well, I mean, I've heard of drop shipping, I've heard of affiliate sites,

3:12 I've heard of uh selling an online course.

3:14 Ali Abdal talks about his YouTuber Academy.

3:16 So, maybe I can make it big by being a YouTuber." But increasingly,

3:19 they might have seen Alex Hormozi sort of convincing everyone that the best way

3:24 to get to 10K a month is to start an online community on School or something.

3:28 Like, what's what's up with that sort of messaging?

3:34 It's a little bit uh obfuscating the the real issue here.

3:39 So, I feel that community is now the new hot topic that everyone

3:43 is talking about and the right platform and how much to charge.

3:46 But community by itself doesn't actually solve any problems.

3:49 It's not just a magic bullet or magic wand.

3:53 And so, you know how there's always been a trend of like affiliate marketing,

3:57 drop shipping, like all of these things.

3:59 And so, people get into it because it

4:00 feels a bit like a get-rich-quick scheme or some

4:03 type of thing that you can run without needing

4:06 to have a whole lot of skills or experience.

4:08 And so, with community, there is a lot of transparency there in terms

4:14 of you working with your members inside your community.

4:17 So, if you don't actually have something valuable to offer them,

4:20 they're going to find that out very, very quickly.

4:22 So, community does not just magically solve a problem.

4:25 It is a vehicle for you to be able to deliver the value that you have,

4:30 the experience that you have.

4:31 So, maybe you're a coach or maybe you are a course creator.

4:34 And you've realized, "Okay, well,

4:36 with my course, there are some inherent issues.

4:39 Things like nobody finishes the course.

4:41 Okay, that's a problem.

4:42 Why?" Well, because all of the people are disconnected and isolated.

4:46 And so, they're trying to do a very hard thing all by themselves.

4:49 And it's hard to do hard things all on all on your own.

4:52 Yeah.

4:52 So, the community then starts to add more value to the thing that you

4:57 are already helping them with, which is solving a problem through your course.

5:00 So, by itself, the community isn't just

5:02 some magic container that's going to create value.

5:05 So, if someone has no experience with any business thing

5:07 and they've just got got just got a day job, Mhm.

5:10 to what extent would you recommend community as being

5:12 the vehicle that gets them to 10K a month?

5:14 Okay, so let's talk about the options that they would have, right?

5:17 So, community to me is a bit overused and under under-under-understood,

5:23 misunderstood, right?

5:25 So, it's actually not one thing.

5:27 I see them as several different options.

5:30 And so, community is almost like saying,

5:31 "I want to start an online business." Okay?

5:34 Okay, yeah, fine.

5:34 It's like, "How do I make 10K a month with an online business?" Like,

5:37 "Well, what kind of online business?" Is this a drop shipping company?

5:41 Is this a YouTube, you know, channel?

5:43 What are we talking about here?

5:44 Are you building a a software product?

5:47 Very, very different routes and very different um requirements, right?

5:52 So, inside of community, there are two main value drivers.

5:58 There's the connection inside,

6:00 which is bringing people together and the value comes from the members.

6:04 And then there's curriculum, where you're taking people through a process

6:09 and you're taking them on a journey.

6:11 Yeah, so for someone listening to this who

6:12 might not have already drunk the community Kool-Aid,

6:15 what is an online community?

6:17 Are we talking like a Facebook group?

6:18 Are we talking like an email list?

6:20 Are we talking like trying to bring people together in real life?

6:22 Like, yeah, what what are we talking about?

6:25 Great question.

6:26 So, community, like I said, is very overused and it's very trendy right now.

6:31 So, humans have been in communities forever, since the beginning of time.

6:35 So, it's nothing new, but what is new here is the online aspect of it, okay?

6:40 So, I think it's important to talk about

6:42 what is the difference between audience and community.

6:44 A lot of people say,

6:45 "I already have a big community on LinkedIn." It's like, "No, you really don't.

6:48 You have some followers, you have an audience, but it's not a community." So,

6:53 for me, community requires you to be a bit more bought in.

6:56 You've actually opted into something or maybe you've purchased

6:59 something or you've signed up and you you've said,

7:01 "I want to be a member or or part of that group." And so, until recently,

7:07 the last few years, there hasn't really

7:09 been any dedicated software platforms dedicated to community.

7:13 And now there are.

7:13 So, that's what we're really talking about

7:15 is creating a private space that is online,

7:19 that is dedicated and designed just to facilitate member-to-member interaction,

7:25 for you to engage with them, for you to deliver resources,

7:30 yeah, curriculum, all that kind of stuff.

7:31 Why would someone pay for a community?

7:34 Seems like a bit of a scam.

7:36 Well, uh I think we pay for communities all the time, right?

7:40 Like, we we join private newsletters or private groups.

7:44 Uh we want to get access to people or we want to get access to information.

7:47 So, maybe you're joining a club.

7:49 And so, we're doing those things on a regular basis, whether it's local,

7:52 you're joining like a religious group or maybe

7:54 a sports league or uh fantasy football, right?

7:56 It's like people want to be brought

7:58 together with other people that have shared interests,

8:01 shared visions, shared challenges, but even shared goals.

8:04 And so, communities could be people who are

8:06 trying to quit their 9-to-5 and become an entrepreneur.

8:10 Right?

8:10 So, it's like maybe you feel really misunderstood because everyone

8:13 around you in your day job loves the day job.

8:15 You can't speak badly about it.

8:16 You can't say I want to leave and do my own thing.

8:19 But in this private online community, you can.

8:21 Because you can be surrounded by people that think exactly the way you do.

8:24 They read the same books.

8:25 They watch the same YouTube videos.

8:26 And so, there's that sense of connection and support.

8:30 But then also, if that community is being led

8:33 by someone who's doing what you want to be doing,

8:35 you're essentially having that mentor

8:37 and mentorship relationship or a coach relationship

8:40 where you can be sharing what you're doing on a regular basis.

8:44 So, you're like, "Hey, I'm trying to implement the things you're

8:46 teaching and it's not working." Then you can

8:48 actually get support versus you just read a book and if you can't figure it out,

8:52 well, you're out of luck.

8:53 Okay, cool.

8:54 So, like I'm I'm thinking, you know,

8:56 this was the thought that we had a few years ago now,

8:59 actually, when we launched our course, the YouTuber Academy.

9:02 Um and my team talked me into having a community with it.

9:05 Cuz I was like, "Ah, who cares about community?" Cuz for to me,

9:08 like an online community is like, I don't really care.

9:11 I feel like I've already got too much of going on in my life

9:14 and I know enough people in real life now who do stuff.

9:17 And real life is broadly better than online.

9:19 But then I was really surprised that people seem to freaking love the community.

9:23 And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." And then uh 6 months ago when

9:26 we when we were thinking of launching Productivity Lab,

9:28 um initially, it was going to be a $300 course.

9:31 And then my team again said, "Hey,

9:32 we should really make this a community." And I was like, "Nah, come on.

9:36 No one No one wants community." Turns out, people really want community.

9:40 Now that we've launched the thing and, you know,

9:41 I kind of got talked into it by my team who did a load of market research.

9:44 Um so, we mentioned that there is a few different types of online community.

9:47 Online community is sort of like online business.

9:49 Like, what are the different types

9:50 and how should someone be thinking about this?

9:53 Yeah.

9:55 And I think the important thing to think about too is we all realized through

10:00 the pandemic and everything how isolated and lonely

10:03 we can all be and how disconnected.

10:05 And so it's a place to go to hang out, right?

10:08 Where you're not just going there to get entertainment,

10:10 but to really be understood,

10:12 to be supported, and to not feel so alone and isolated.

10:16 And so sometimes when you're trying to do a really hard thing,

10:18 the first step is actually that mental

10:20 step of even believing it's possible, right?

10:23 Cuz if you don't believe something is truly possible, you know,

10:24 we all see superstars and we see famous people and it's like,

10:27 "Yeah, they could do it, but is this really possible for me?" Getting

10:30 into that community puts you in very close proximity

10:32 with people that are either doing what you

10:35 want to be doing or also striving for it.

10:37 And so it makes it feel a lot more

10:38 tangible and a lot more uh realistic and probable.

10:41 So So let's talk about what those four different types are, right?

10:45 So we've got the two drivers we had talked about.

10:47 So we've got connection or curriculum.

10:49 So you want to be thinking about if you're starting a community,

10:51 where is the value coming from?

10:53 Is it coming from simply bringing a lot of disconnected people together?

10:57 And that could be definitely a a value driver.

11:01 Or is it coming from teaching someone

11:03 and helping them achieve a very specific outcome?

11:06 So if you've done something in your life

11:08 that other people want to learn how to do,

11:09 and if you can turn that into a road map and a curriculum and a course,

11:13 doing that inside of a community supercharges that, okay?

11:16 So within each of those two buckets,

11:19 there is a low-ticket option and a high-ticket option.

11:22 Okay.

11:23 And that is going to dictate the way that you're going

11:26 to run and facilitate the community and the experience inside of it.

11:29 is like what numbers are we talking for low-ticket and high-ticket?

11:32 Low-ticket I would say anything under typically a thousand

11:34 dollars or something like a hundred dollars per month.

11:37 Oh, okay, cool.

11:38 So under a hundred dollars a month would be low-ticket

11:40 and over a hundred dollars a month would be high-ticket.

11:42 Mhm.

11:43 I mean, ours is ninety-seven dollars a month,

11:45 so I guess you would call Productivity Lab low-ticket.

11:48 Lowish ticket.

11:48 It's lowish, right?

11:49 But you're charging it up front, aren't you?

11:51 A thousand for the year or like nine hundred

11:53 and seven for the year or whatever it is.

11:54 Yeah.

11:55 So yours is a bit interesting and we can get

11:57 into that because I feel that you're charging low-ticket on the price,

12:00 but you're actually delivering high-ticket on the experience.

12:03 Mhm.

12:04 And so we can kind of talk about what those two Okay,

12:06 we'll clip that out and post it as a testimonial.

12:07 differences look like.

12:08 Low-ticket on the price, high-ticket on the experience.

12:10 Okay, cool.

12:11 Um yeah, so four different types.

12:13 Yeah.

12:13 So on the connection side on the low-ticket, we have peer communities.

12:17 Yep.

12:17 Right?

12:18 So it sounds like what it is.

12:19 Hey, we all have a similar interest, a similar goal, similar dream.

12:23 Let's get all together and we can talk about it.

12:24 We don't know exactly what's going to happen.

12:26 It's unstructured.

12:27 Yep.

12:28 But we know that by bringing all these people together,

12:31 something good is going to happen.

12:32 Okay.

12:32 So that's the way like, I don't know,

12:34 a community for people who really enjoy Brandon Sanderson's

12:37 books and do that for like nine dollars a month.

12:39 Sure.

12:39 Yeah.

12:39 Cool.

12:39 I would join that community.

12:41 I'll be like, "Sick." It's like a bit nicer

12:43 than the forums because it's paid rather than free.

12:45 Um I would join that community.

12:47 Why would you join that community?

12:49 Why would I join that community?

12:50 Because it's cheap enough uh that Huh, why would I join that community?

12:56 Um Okay, so for me, the thing that I get value from is a saving time.

13:03 And so if I can join a community for nine

13:06 dollars a month or a hundred dollars a year,

13:07 and it's people who are Brandon Sanderson fans, I'm a big Brandon Sanderson fan,

13:10 and they are people who are giving me

13:11 book recommendations for like what next to read,

13:15 that means now I'm using the small amount of time I have to read fantasy fiction

13:18 to read the good stuff rather than

13:21 the less good stuff or something to that effect.

13:23 Perfect.

13:23 Okay, so they have just you've essentially bought your time back,

13:26 bought your life back.

13:27 You don't have to read books that are no good.

13:29 They're giving you the shortcut, right?

13:31 So that is one of the themes that you want to be thinking about too,

13:34 whether it's on the connection or on the curriculum side.

13:36 No one wants more stuff, more information, more whatever.

13:39 They just want a shortcut to their goal.

13:40 So it sounds like your goal was, "I want to read really good fantasy fiction,

13:43 the good stuff, and kind of avoid all the others." Yeah.

13:46 And plus I think if I were part

13:47 of this community and people were doing like I don't know,

13:49 in-depth analyses of the scene, the prologue from book five and stuff,

13:54 which has just just been released, I'll be like,

13:56 "Oh yeah, I want to want to get all over that." Cuz it would

13:58 just be kind of cool to to go deeper in my love for Brandon Sanderson,

14:01 but also to save time with recommendations for other resources, i.e.

14:05 books.

14:05 So one of the values that that community would be providing

14:08 for you would also be this outlet to have these really deep,

14:11 nerdy conversations with people that maybe you

14:13 can't have anywhere else in your life, right?

14:15 Because no one else reads that or So it's like,

14:17 now you're completely surrounded by all of these fans and you

14:19 guys can all nerd out together and feel super cool, right?

14:22 Yeah.

14:22 Yeah, 100%.

14:23 Yeah.

14:23 Exactly.

14:24 Super cool is a strong word, but yeah.

14:27 So uh another example Actually,

14:29 that works really well when you have a large audience.

14:31 So if you're an author and you've written lots

14:32 of books and you've got millions of fans and followers,

14:34 you can do that low-ticket ten dollar

14:36 a month community and it can work reasonably well.

14:39 Cool.

14:39 Okay.

14:39 So another example would be um a B2B marketing community, right?

14:43 Let's bring everyone together.

14:44 So Exit Five, Dave Gerhardt, he runs a B2B marketing community.

14:48 He's done a lot in the B2B world and so

14:50 a lot of people have followed him for many, many years and he's like, "Hey,

14:53 let's have a community where we can all talk about

14:55 cutting-edge B2B marketing stuff and AI and whatever." But there's

14:58 no expectation that you're going to take courses or that he's

15:02 going to show up and do all of the teaching.

15:03 It's simply a private place where we can talk about things off of LinkedIn,

15:07 maybe a bit more sensitive, a bit more niche, a bit more cutting-edge.

15:11 And it's going to be higher quality.

15:13 And so that's a very easy one to set

15:15 up because you essentially bring people together and say,

15:17 "Okay, you guys talk, but the expectations are quite unknown or low.

15:21 So how much would that be?

15:23 Presumably higher.

15:24 thirty dollars a month.

15:25 Okay, that's still a little bit higher, but we're talking low-ticket, right?

15:28 So then if we were to take that to the highest end, Yeah.

15:31 that would be a proximity community.

15:33 Okay.

15:33 And so a proximity community is going to be higher-ticket,

15:36 something like a thousand dollars even a month.

15:39 Really?

15:40 Yeah.

15:40 A thousand dollars a month?

15:41 So I do one and it is a mastermind.

15:43 So I would say masterminds are proximity communities.

15:46 Sure.

15:47 And the whole idea is you are getting very close

15:49 with a smaller group of people and you're meeting much more frequently.

15:52 Okay.

15:53 And so you're getting access to other very high-quality,

15:57 vetted people, whether that's business owners or whatever it might be.

16:01 Yep.

16:02 Or you're getting access to the leader there, the coach,

16:05 someone that you want to develop a relationship

16:07 or get direct feedback and coaching from.

16:09 Sure.

16:10 So if I were to start a mastermind type group where I was doing, I don't know,

16:13 weekly or twice weekly Zoom calls,

16:15 I'd be charging a thousand dollars a month if not more for that.

16:17 Yeah.

16:18 Um So what community Yeah,

16:21 what mastermind are you paying a thousand dollars a month for?

16:23 It's called Seven Figure Leap.

16:25 So it's run by a guy named Dustin Reekman.

16:26 Okay.

16:27 And there's twenty people in there.

16:28 So you don't have to have tons and tons of clients or customers.

16:32 He doesn't have a very large audience, but he's able to provide a lot of value.

16:36 So he has a AM group and a PM group that meet every Thursday.

16:40 Yep.

16:41 Ten people in each.

16:42 Yep.

16:42 And we know each other so well and we show up every single week together.

16:46 And the goal is that we are solving the next problem in our business.

16:50 So we don't know what that's going to be

16:51 and that's going to look a little bit different for everyone.

16:54 And so some weeks you may not actually have a problem,

16:55 but you're showing up for the other people and everyone is just jamming

16:59 on that one person's main issue and helping

17:01 them have a breakthrough and get clarity.

17:03 And then next week you're like, "Oh, now I'm really stuck on something.

17:05 Can I get feedback?" And the amount of help that you can get

17:08 is so potent in such a short period of time that it's extremely valuable.

17:13 Interesting.

17:13 So is the guy who runs this, is he like considered a mentor

17:17 or expert here or is he just the guy that brought people together?

17:20 I would say he's also considered the expert and mentor,

17:23 but much of the time the value is from the other members.

17:27 He provides amazing value himself, but it's really a collective experience.

17:31 Okay.

17:31 So that's sort of like a So you you're

17:34 paying a thousand dollars a month purely to be

17:36 in a Zoom call with ten other people

17:38 who are also paying a thousand dollars a month.

17:39 Not in a Zoom call, but in a community.

17:42 Okay.

17:42 And so we do that We do the Zoom call once a week, Yeah.

17:46 but then a lot of times the light bulb

17:48 goes off after the Zoom ends and it's like, "Oh, I had this thought.

17:51 I had this idea." And so in those types of programs that only meet on Zoom,

17:55 as soon as Zoom ends, it's pure disconnection again for seven more days.

17:59 Mhm.

17:59 There's no more interaction.

18:00 All the momentum dies.

18:01 Yep.

18:02 Right?

18:02 And so it's like, "How do we continue the momentum?"

18:05 And the community acts as a connective tissue between all of those events.

18:10 And so now I can go post something and twenty-four hours later

18:13 two other people can respond to it and help me move forward.

18:16 Sure.

18:16 Okay, so we've got peer communities, which is low-ticket,

18:20 only really works if you already have a big audience.

18:22 So that cuts me when I was twenty-six out.

18:25 We've got proximity community, Yep.

18:27 which is the higher-ticket thing,

18:29 which I feel probably cuts me when I was twenty-six

18:32 out out because I had nothing of value to share, at least that's what I thought.

18:36 Would you say that's roughly accurate?

18:38 Yes.

18:38 I would say need to be like for peer communities to work,

18:41 you need to have a big audience.

18:42 For proximity to work, you need to have expertise.

18:44 Yes.

18:45 Proximity communities are one of the hardest to sell

18:48 because you need to have a lot of trust first.

18:50 You need to almost have sampled value from that person previously before

18:55 you're ready to spend that amount of money to be closer to them.

18:59 Okay.

18:59 Because the outcome is quite unknown.

19:01 Nice.

19:02 Right?

19:02 And so with Dustin, I actually first joined his transformational community,

19:07 which we'll talk about.

19:08 It's called Podcast Profit Accelerator.

19:10 And so it was a very clear outcome of like, "Okay,

19:12 I want to get booked on a bunch of podcasts." Well,

19:14 he has a system and a formula to do that.

19:16 So I paid for that program, which introduced me to Dustin.

19:20 I got to know him.

19:21 I got to like him.

19:22 And I'm like, "Wow, this guy has a lot

19:23 of great advice and and coaching." And so after I graduated,

19:27 it was a ninety-day program,

19:28 he was like, "Hey, you can hang out every single week and get even

19:31 more coaching and advice with all

19:32 these other people who have also graduated Yep.

19:34 in the mastermind." And I was like, "Yes,

19:36 let's do that." A lot of people might be listening to this and thinking, "Wow,

19:40 this Dustin guy is such a scammer because he's getting you in with like

19:43 a cheap thing and then he's upselling you on the expensive thing.

19:46 What's up with that?" Is Dustin a scammer?

19:51 No.

19:51 Leading question.

19:52 Not at all.

19:53 Uh but the first thing was not a cheap thing either.

19:57 Yeah.

19:58 He sold me from the expensive thing to the more expensive thing.

20:01 Uh so, the first program was $10,000 and that was

20:04 the most that I've ever paid for anything.

20:06 Yeah.

20:06 And but the promise here was that he was going to 10x

20:10 the value that I am getting back from the program versus what I paid.

20:14 And so, what he's creating is a for me as an entrepreneur a lead pipeline.

20:20 Mhm.

20:20 Right?

20:20 And so, there's only so many ways to get leads.

20:23 Being on podcasts that have my audience where I

20:26 can speak to them for an hour and explain what I do and build trust and all

20:30 of that stuff sounds like a pretty good strategy.

20:32 Yeah.

20:32 And I did not know the first step in doing that in an efficient way, right?

20:36 In a systematized way.

20:37 And so, he's done that many, many times for himself,

20:40 which is actually one of the first steps.

20:41 So, one of the best ways people might say,

20:43 "What are your credentials or how do you have the authority to do this?" Well,

20:46 go and get results for yourself first.

20:48 Mhm.

20:49 That is the first step is actually achieve something.

20:52 Yeah.

20:52 And then if you can help one other person achieve it,

20:55 then you start to systematize it and do it over and over.

20:57 So, by the time I met Dustin, I think he was on his eighth or ninth

21:01 cohort that has 10 plus people inside of each one.

21:03 So, he's helped more than 100 people do this.

21:06 Yep.

21:06 And the results were there.

21:07 So, one of his episodes, he actually ran a few different businesses.

21:11 One of them was a meat sticks company.

21:13 Meat sticks.

21:14 Yeah, like snacks, you know, protein meat sticks.

21:16 And he did a bunch of podcasts.

21:18 He ended up getting picked up by Walmart and getting

21:20 put into thousands of stores to sell his meat sticks,

21:23 which was more than a seven-figure contract.

21:26 And so, it's very possible and plausible that that would

21:29 work for you because it worked for him.

21:31 And based on your product and what you're selling,

21:34 the results could be enormous.

21:36 Yeah.

21:37 Okay, interesting.

21:38 Um so, that we so, you call that a transformational community.

21:41 Yes.

21:42 Is that number three in our list?

21:44 Technically number four.

21:45 Oh, cool.

21:45 What's number three?

21:46 Number three is the community-powered course.

21:48 Okay.

21:49 over to the curriculum side of things,

21:51 the low ticket is the cricket is the community-powered course.

21:54 Okay.

21:56 What's that?

21:56 So, I think a lot of us have taken online courses by now, right?

22:00 A lot of us have also signed up

22:02 for online courses and we've never completed them.

22:05 Some of us have bought them and never even logged into them.

22:08 Yep.

22:08 And they're sitting on our digital shelves collecting dust.

22:10 Yes.

22:11 Because they're very exciting, right?

22:13 The promise, the sales page, you can learn how to do XYZ,

22:16 depending on what phase you're in in life,

22:18 you're like, "That sounds really cool.

22:19 I would love to learn how to record YouTube videos and edit them myself,

22:22 even though I don't really have any intention

22:24 or need to do that, but sounds really interesting." Yeah.

22:27 So, the problem with online courses is that very,

22:30 very few people actually complete them and even

22:33 fewer people implement them and get the results.

22:36 So, as a course creator,

22:37 if you truly have this expertise and have this passion to teach

22:41 others and help others and you're putting all of your time and effort

22:43 into making the best course ever and you realize like maybe 1%

22:47 of your your customers are getting the results, that kind of sucks.

22:50 Mhm.

22:51 Uh so, there's a better way, right?

22:52 And so, the better way is by delivering a community-powered course.

22:56 So, putting that course inside of a community and making it interactive.

23:00 Okay.

23:00 What you really want to focus on is implementation with your students, okay?

23:06 Nobody needs more information.

23:07 We want a shortcut.

23:08 And so, even like in Productivity Lab,

23:10 I think one of the core hypotheses was a lot of us know what we need to do,

23:15 we just need to sit down and do it.

23:16 Yep.

23:17 So, how do we create an environment,

23:19 an opportunity for people just to sit down and do the work?

23:22 And that alone provides massive value for people because it's accountability.

23:26 It's like showing up to the gym and doing

23:28 your push-ups in front of the trainer at 6:00 a.m.

23:30 when you could do them at home by yourself,

23:32 but for some reason some people choose not to, they choose

23:34 to pay someone else to sit there and watch them count the reps.

23:37 paid a guy to watch the reps this morning at 8:00 and it meant I did leg day,

23:40 otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

23:42 Exactly.

23:43 So, a lot of times, yes, we need to teach people stuff,

23:47 but we don't need to teach them as much as we

23:49 think so as we think we need to teach them.

23:51 We need to just help them implement, right?

23:53 A lot of times people are just afraid to take action or they watch the video,

23:57 it sounds so simple and easy when you're explaining it and you're

24:00 showing how to do it and then when I go to do it,

24:02 I get stuck or it didn't work exactly like I thought it would.

24:06 Now what?

24:07 If you're all by yourself sitting in your room reading the textbook,

24:10 what are you supposed to do?

24:10 How do you get unstuck?

24:11 Got it.

24:12 Okay, so it sounds like it's we've got these four types of communities.

24:15 We've got peer communities, low ticket, proximity communities, high ticket,

24:18 peer-to-peer, course-powered community-powered courses,

24:22 which is low-ish, low ticket, Yeah.

24:24 um courses and then transformational community, which is high ticket.

24:27 Yes.

24:27 Which is sort of the same thing, which is just smaller people and therefore

24:30 more hand-holding to help you get that transformation.

24:33 Yeah, I would say it's like a community-powered course on steroids.

24:36 So, it's my favorite of the four Yep.

24:38 because it produces such good outcomes.

24:41 So, a transformational course has a very clear, specific finish line.

24:46 Mhm.

24:46 So, you know when you have crossed it.

24:48 Yep.

24:48 And you are paying typically a lot of money, maybe 3,000, 5,000, up to $10,000.

24:55 And so, there is a lot of support there for you.

24:58 There could be daily calls,

24:59 there could be coaches, accountability partners, um Yep.

25:03 community managers, people that you can check in with to get unstuck,

25:07 but who also will be checking in with you if you disappear.

25:10 Got it.

25:11 So, let's talk about an example of transformational communities.

25:15 One example would be PGA or Premium

25:18 Ghostwriting Academy from Dickie Bush and Nicolas Cole.

25:21 Yeah, he was on the pod for around two like yesterday.

25:24 Awesome.

25:24 Yeah, coincidentally.

25:25 Yeah.

25:25 So, when you sign up for this program, there is one outcome.

25:29 You will become a premium ghostwriter,

25:31 which is something that they have coined and they have um created, right?

25:34 And so, what that means is you're going to be able to sell a educational

25:37 email course for a price point and find clients and da da da da.

25:40 Okay?

25:41 If you're going through this program and you

25:43 just all of a sudden ghost and disappear, they will follow up with you.

25:47 They will email, they will DM.

25:48 And what I've heard from them listening

25:50 to their pod and how they're talking about their program

25:52 is they are very aggressive at that follow-up

25:55 and there's kind of a concern there of like,

25:57 "Oh, are we going to piss people off?

25:58 We're going to annoy them?" But 90 plus percent of the time, students, members,

26:03 customers are so grateful that somebody cares and that somebody

26:06 is checking in and the reaction is almost always, "Yeah, I've been really busy.

26:09 Sorry.

26:10 Thanks a lot for checking in.

26:11 I'll be on the call on Wednesday." And so,

26:12 if you're someone who really cares about your students'

26:15 success and you want to make sure that you know,

26:17 you're getting great testimonials and case studies, then people need to show up.

26:20 And so, if they feel like they don't have any skin in the game,

26:23 there's no consequences, nobody cares, nobody is looking for them,

26:27 then you're going to have a lot of people who just disengage.

26:29 Mhm.

26:29 So, that's the thing I like about

26:31 transformational communities is because people are paying more,

26:34 they are psychologically more motivated, more bought in.

26:36 Yep.

26:36 So, they want to get the results, but then you have the resources to provide

26:40 a world-class experience to help them get the results.

26:43 Oh, by the way, quick thing.

26:44 In case you are interested in starting

26:46 and or growing and or monetizing a YouTube channel,

26:48 then you might like to check out my Part-Time YouTuber Academy.

26:51 It is, of course, that has dozens and dozens of hours of content

26:54 in it along with templates

26:55 and worksheets and resources that basically open-source

26:57 absolutely everything that me and my team have learned about growing my YouTube

27:00 channel and also this podcast YouTube channel over the last seven plus years.

27:04 So, you can check that out at academy.aliabdaal.com and it'll be linked

27:07 down below in the video description and the show notes as well.

27:09 Feel free to check out the Part-Time YouTuber Academy.

27:12 Sounds to me that community,

27:14 any of these four uh any of these four um flavors of community, Mhm.

27:20 beginner-friendly online business to start.

27:23 Cuz it sounds like peer communities, if they're low ticket,

27:25 require a big audience, which is not beginner-friendly.

27:27 Proximity communities require expertise,

27:29 which is probably not beginner-friendly unless you already have expertise.

27:32 Maybe you've been, I don't know,

27:33 RevOps for three different tech startups and now

27:35 you want to build a community of RevOps people.

27:37 Okay, cool.

27:37 You've you've done something and now you're building

27:39 a community around the thing that you've already done.

27:42 Community-powered course, well,

27:44 it's really hard to build a business selling online courses if

27:45 you don't know if you don't have any any value to add.

27:49 And transformational community, that sounds even harder.

27:52 Would that be fair to say or am I am I not giving the beginners

27:55 enough credit that they could start feasibly

27:57 make 10k a month with these online communities?

27:59 Cuz Hormozi is certainly giving the impression

28:01 that beginners could make 10k a month.

28:03 Or you or you you know,

28:04 like all you have to do is sign up to school and suddenly you're

28:06 making all this money like am am I missing something or like like yeah,

28:09 what's what's going on here?

28:10 No, I don't think you're missing something.

28:13 The reality is that there's there's just no silver bullet, right?

28:16 There's no magical hack that if you just sign up for this software tool,

28:20 you're going to make magic internet money.

28:21 That's that's what we all That's what we all know.

28:23 God damn it.

28:25 Yeah, the retention of this podcast episode is just tanked.

28:27 Sorry, everybody.

28:28 Yeah.

28:29 So, I am a I'm a fan of doing real things for real

28:32 people and creating real value and helping

28:34 people achieve transformations in their life.

28:36 Cool.

28:37 When you are all in on that and you're willing to put

28:40 your name out there and be committed

28:42 to that, communities work really, really well.

28:44 Mhm.

28:45 Because it's bringing people together and you can't really hide,

28:48 you can't really fake it.

28:49 Nice.

28:50 Okay, I like that.

28:51 Yeah, so Productivity Lab is a community,

28:52 we're transitioning our YouTuber Academy from just being a course,

28:56 a course with a in brackets this sort of a community on the back end,

29:00 uh into really a proper community thing, most likely.

29:04 Fingers crossed.

29:05 Um I've got a friend, Izzy, who's a YouTuber.

29:07 I've done a couple of collab videos on her channel.

29:10 She does videos helping people learn Mandarin and she's just releasing

29:14 released a self-paced course that teaches you how to self-study Mandarin.

29:18 I was kind of saying to her, "Have you considered doing a community?

29:21 Because I'd be keen to learn Mandarin.

29:23 There's no way in hell I'm actually going to go through the course,

29:26 but if if I was part of a community that was

29:27 having weekly calls and there was a bit of an accountability,

29:30 I would probably I would probably pay quite a lot of money for that if

29:33 I was genuinely motivated to learn Mandarin Chinese."

29:36 And she was she was kind of like,

29:37 "Ah, but it's a lot of work." It's like, "Yeah,

29:39 I like the idea of a course being a one-and-done thing with, you know,

29:43 passive income, hashtag hashtag passive income.

29:45 These these community things sound like quite a lot of work."

29:47 It does sound like quite a lot of work, doesn't it?

29:49 Yeah.

29:49 And is it?

29:50 I mean, I guess you always have to work to make money,

29:52 and even passive income isn't truly passive.

29:54 So, I think there's very few passive income mechanisms that will work,

30:00 especially for beginners, and especially as their first thing.

30:04 Yeah.

30:05 For me, I think active income is the way to start.

30:08 And eventually, once you've built up enough following,

30:11 expertise, notoriety, whatever it might be,

30:13 you can find ways to productize it and turn it into passive.

30:17 Sure.

30:17 But the dream of just putting up some type of website or finding some kind

30:21 of app that's just going to start paying

30:22 you money passively is just not very realistic.

30:25 I've never met anyone that's been able to do that.

30:27 Yeah.

30:28 Yeah.

30:28 That's really the the myth that I think still people believe that there

30:32 is in effect a magic bullet to 10 to get to 10k a month.

30:35 Yeah.

30:35 And every time I do these podcasts,

30:36 we title them how to make 10k a month as a writer.

30:38 It's like, "Oh,[ __] it's work." How to make 10k a month as a service agency?

30:41 Oh, yeah, it's work.

30:42 How to make 10k a month with a community?

30:44 Yeah, it's work.

30:45 Good luck.

30:45 It's like you got to work to make money.

30:47 I've never found anyone who's been able

30:48 to become very successful without working very hard.

30:51 Yeah.

30:51 So, with communities, it's the exact same thing, but there is a good side.

30:54 So, it doesn't have to consume you.

30:56 It doesn't have to consume your entire life.

30:58 Mhm.

30:59 That was actually something that Justin Welsh had reached out to me about.

31:02 So, he had been running a community a couple of years ago,

31:04 and it had been great for the members Yeah.

31:07 because they were able to get access to Justin,

31:09 ask him lots of questions, and get help and support.

31:11 But for Justin's side of things,

31:13 um it was a bit consuming, a bit stressful, a bit chaotic.

31:17 I think partly because of the the the tool,

31:20 the way it was set up was just kind of a chat feed sort of environment,

31:23 so it's very unstructured, and everyone's just piling in.

31:25 And so, it's like you wake up, and there's 100 messages in a row,

31:29 and then everyone tagging you,

31:30 and so you've got all of these DMs, plus the direct messages.

31:33 So, the other side, it's the expectations of when

31:36 you're actually selling and launching this, what are you selling,

31:40 and what is the value?

31:41 So, when people don't think through it enough,

31:43 they just say, "Oh, I'm launching a community for productivity.

31:46 Sign up here.

31:47 Here's how much it costs." And they would think, "Oh, great.

31:49 So, I'm getting access to Ali, and he's going to answer all

31:51 my productivity questions." And you're thinking, "No,

31:54 that's that's not at all what it's going to be like." So,

31:57 if you don't set those expectations, you can have a really hard time.

32:01 So, he did that for a while.

32:02 That ended up ending, and a few years later, fast forward,

32:06 he released a a course earlier this year called Creator MBA.

32:10 And he pulled his audience, and he said, "What would make this course really,

32:13 really awesome?" And the number one thing

32:15 that came back from everyone was community.

32:17 And he said, "Oh, no.

32:19 Yeah.

32:20 Not again.

32:20 Okay.

32:22 Everyone wants another community." And so,

32:24 when he reached out to me, he was like,

32:26 "I want to do this, but I want to do it differently than we did it before.

32:29 I don't want this to be the Justin Welsh show,

32:31 where everyone just gets in line every single day,

32:32 and I wake up, and there's 100 messages that I have to answer.

32:35 How do we make this a calm,

32:37 easy community that is not going to fully consume me,

32:39 but it's going to create a lot of value for people?" Yeah.

32:42 And so, part of it was just in the expectations.

32:43 We said, "Hey, this is a community only for customers of the Creator MBA.

32:48 So, you're going through the course.

32:49 This is a peer community, where you get to talk to one another,

32:52 share what you're working on, ask for feedback, you know, show us your work.

32:56 And then, Justin is going to have a few structured events inside the community.

33:00 So, he'll do a monthly Q&A.

33:01 Mhm.

33:02 And everyone submits their questions ahead of time

33:04 to give him time to prepare a proper answer, research it, show examples.

33:08 And so, for 2 hours, it's a very high quality event that everyone attends.

33:13 But then, outside of that, his participation is really seen as like a bonus.

33:17 Mhm.

33:17 So, he's been able to spend 3 to 5 hours

33:19 a week and still add massive value to the community,

33:22 and it's not taking over his whole life.

33:24 Nice.

33:24 Do you know how much money he made from this?

33:25 I think I think he was open about it on Twitter.

33:28 Um I think it was it like 1 million plus?

33:32 I believe so.

33:33 Yeah, cuz he tweeted something cuz we we used him

33:35 as an example in a video that I released like yesterday.

33:38 Where he was I think he's up to like

33:39 7 and 1/2 million in lifetime earnings from his course.

33:41 Uh courses business over the last like several years.

33:44 Um Which is pretty cool.

33:45 Pretty cool.

33:46 Okay.

33:46 So, community powered uh sorry,

33:48 community as a business model, not for the faint hearted.

33:52 Um But I think in a yeah, in a world where it's it sounds like it's it's a good

33:57 addition to the I I feel like we need a name for this.

34:00 The We tried to make the name creatorpreneur happen,

34:04 like the creatorpreneur stack.

34:06 But I think there's something around like the online teacher,

34:08 the online thought leader, the online educator,

34:11 or something to that effect that sounds a bit less less[ __] than that.

34:14 In that stack, there is currently, well,

34:16 I make videos, and I get them sponsored.

34:18 I make an online course.

34:20 I do one-on-one coaching.

34:22 And it sounds like, well, recurring revenue membership community of some sort.

34:27 Either as a community powered course, a transformational community,

34:29 a proximity community, i.e., mastermind, or a peer community.

34:32 Those are also now options that online

34:35 thought leader-y type people have under their belt.

34:38 Is that a reasonable way of thinking about it?

34:41 Or do you think I'm being too too niche with saying that, well,

34:44 feels like communities are the thing

34:46 for like the online thought leader-y type people?

34:48 I think what communities unlock for those types of people is more leverage.

34:53 Mhm.

34:53 So, it's a monetization vehicle,

34:56 and it's a way to serve more people at the same time.

34:59 Okay.

35:00 So, instead of doing one-on-one consulting, create a group program.

35:05 And that group program would be inside the community.

35:07 So, Because I think a lot of people might have the perception

35:10 that one-on-one is the highest value that you can get from someone.

35:14 But it's actually more valuable to be in a small,

35:17 intimate group with that expert Mhm.

35:20 because you get to hear what the other members

35:22 are thinking or what the other members are asking.

35:24 And many times, other people will ask even better questions than you are,

35:27 and you're thinking, "Oh, damn, that's a really good question." Yeah.

35:30 Yeah, I should be thinking about that, or I'm

35:31 just going to listen to the answer and implement that.

35:34 So, many times, what we've seen like in our program

35:36 is people will show up for the weekly calls,

35:38 and I'll do a quick check-in in the beginning to see who has

35:41 an immediate problem or a question that we need to tackle this week.

35:43 Yeah.

35:44 And some people are like, "No,

35:45 I'm just here to kind of listen to the conversation,

35:47 hang out, hear what you guys are up to.

35:49 I'm working on my business, but I don't have an immediate problem.

35:51 I just want to be in the room." Cuz there aren't very

35:54 many other places that you get to have these types of conversations.

35:57 Yeah.

35:57 Yeah, I would pay a lot to join a community

35:59 of seven-figure entrepreneurs all trying to scale to eight.

36:02 And I'd probably just hang out and chill on most of these calls,

36:04 maybe while going for a walk,

36:06 just to absorb the sorts of things that people are asking.

36:08 Yeah.

36:09 Cuz even if I don't have directly a question for, I don't know,

36:11 Cole Gordon or whatever the thing might be,

36:12 it's like the fact that other people are asking those sorts of questions.

36:15 And we find this when I do Q&A's for our YouTube accelerator program.

36:19 Uh most of the cold doesn't actually ask a question.

36:22 They're just sort of hanging out and and listening in.

36:23 And sometimes, they'll have the video off,

36:24 sometimes they'll have it on, they might be doing something else,

36:26 but it's like yeah, where else do you get to hear from, you know,

36:31 Ali Abdaal giving people specific YouTube advice?

36:33 And often, people are like, "Oh, yeah, actually,

36:34 that thing he said to person X actually really helped me." That kind of idea.

36:37 And people really value live over pre-recorded.

36:41 Mhm.

36:42 Right?

36:42 Even if it's the best information in the world recorded yesterday,

36:45 there's something about getting to be on a live call with you today.

36:48 Yeah.

36:49 Because it's just more real time.

36:51 I can ask a question.

36:52 I can get specific advice and feedback from you directly.

36:55 And so, if we're on a call, if if you're running a call for an hour,

36:58 and I get 3 minutes of your time to ask a question and have you respond back,

37:03 that's massive value.

37:05 And so, I might be paying $1,000 a year or $1,000 a month for that.

37:08 And for that to happen a few times and to give me an unlock in my business,

37:12 it more than pays for the entire membership.

37:14 Mhm.

37:15 Nice.

37:15 So, let's talk about Productivity Lab.

37:17 So, we worked with you to get Productivity Lab off of the ground.

37:19 So, thank you for all the help on that front.

37:21 You're welcome.

37:21 Um What about the process would be interesting for listeners, do you think?

37:27 I guess I'm sort of inside the bubble, so I don't really like Yeah.

37:30 I think we should talk about the design phase.

37:33 Okay.

37:33 And so, that's really what we spent the first couple of months on.

37:37 Was really the offer of what are we building here?

37:39 Mhm.

37:40 And I'm curious to hear what your experience was like on that, cuz I

37:44 know that we had batted around a bunch of different ideas of, you know,

37:47 path we could go down.

37:48 Was it going to be an entrepreneur product or a professional product?

37:50 You remember that back in the early days?

37:52 Mhm.

37:52 And so, it took us quite a while, I think,

37:54 to land on exactly what the thing was and iron out all of the details.

37:58 Yeah, I think a big part of it was that I knew,

38:01 you know, after we did a bunch of internal market research,

38:03 internal market research, like sort of market research from within our team,

38:06 we sort of we landed on, you know,

38:08 this idea of Peloton for productivity, or like CrossFit for productivity.

38:12 Where, you know, no one wants another course,

38:15 but you know, people like every everyone knows, or rather,

38:21 Uh I know that I should do a weekly review,

38:23 where I review my week and set goals for the next week.

38:26 How often do I actually do it?

38:27 Basically, never.

38:28 So, like, if I was part of a community where every

38:31 week there was a facilitator taking me through a weekly review,

38:34 I would hop on that Zoom call in a heartbeat.

38:36 And now, I'm way more effective because I've just reviewed

38:39 my week and made a plan for the next week.

38:41 Similarly, I know I should just sit down and do the[ __] work.

38:44 How often do I do it?

38:45 Well, almost never.

38:46 But if there was a Zoom call where I was on there with a few people over Zoom,

38:49 or even people in real life,

38:50 cuz I like doing little co-working parties in my house,

38:53 Um I do way more work than when I'm just sitting there on my own.

38:57 So, what's the value of that for me?

38:58 For me, cuz I've got a seven-figure business, absolutely, that's astronomical.

39:01 Like, of course of course it's worth it.

39:03 And so, it's almost like I was thinking, well, you know,

39:06 the same reason that I have a personal

39:07 trainer and or would go to exercise classes,

39:09 it's cuz I just don't do the thing on my own.

39:11 And I know I don't need more content.

39:13 I'm not signing up to a personal trainer in the hope that the personal

39:15 trainer is going to give me a magical magic bullet to six-pack abs.

39:19 Honestly, I'm doing it so that I have an appointment that I've

39:21 prepaid for, so I will be there as a sense of accountability.

39:25 And so, the thought was,

39:26 "What would that look like as a" I didn't want to use the word community.

39:29 I was like, "Oh, yeah, community.

39:31 Oh god, now I'm going to be on the hook,

39:32 and people are going to we're going to feel like

39:33 we have to keep on doing new stuff every single month,

39:36 and blah blah blah blah blah." I wanted to feel like exercise classes.

39:39 Mhm.

39:39 Cuz you don't join exercise classes thinking, "Damn,

39:41 I wish I had more community." You think I rock up

39:43 to the exercise class and if I want to chat to people afterwards, great.

39:46 But the chatting to people afterwards,

39:48 it's on me to make friends rather than on CrossFit to provide

39:51 a small group intimate dining experience where we can get to hang out.

39:55 So that was the the idea and then in my mind I was thinking,

39:58 "Okay, well I don't I don't like low-ticket things.

40:01 Um and so I did I don't like the idea of $9 a month because

40:05 that's just going to we're going to get too many people for it to be manageable.

40:09 I also don't really like the idea of $30

40:11 a month cuz it's we're going to get too many people.

40:13 I was like, "I would love for this to be a 5 to 10

40:15 million a year thing and if we price it at a thousand a year,

40:18 we would have 5,000 members to get to that.

40:21 5 to 10,000 members.

40:22 Can I imagine doing a community with 5 to 10,000 members?

40:25 It's like, hmm.

40:27 I think so.

40:29 And that was kind of where we we landed on as a you know,

40:33 5,000 people paying a thousand would would be a 5 million a year asset.

40:36 We can increase the prices over time.

40:38 It means that we can't do the hey,

40:40 you get to make friends with an intimate small group.

40:42 But that's okay cuz that was never really the point.

40:47 Now that we're like 4 weeks in, loads

40:49 of people are asking for like, "Hey, you know,

40:50 I wish there was more smaller group stuff." And we're like,

40:53 "Uh-oh, what do we do?" Yeah.

40:56 Okay, so yeah, creating those and managing that can be a bit tricky, right?

41:01 Trying to match people up and all of that.

41:03 So you have an option where you could simply

41:05 let people opt in and you let them create their own groups and we can do all

41:10 of that inside of Circle and make it kind of easy.

41:12 Yeah.

41:13 Why are they asking for that, do you think?

41:16 Uh the thing people have said is the word accountability.

41:18 Mhm.

41:19 They would like sort of they don't feel that much

41:21 accountability being on a Zoom call with 50 people,

41:23 but they would feel way more if

41:24 they had an accountability group with like three,

41:26 four, five, six, seven people where each week they set goals and blah blah blah,

41:30 you know, or felt more accountable to that group for achieving those goals.

41:34 Are you guys going to do it?

41:35 Should we?

41:38 I'm I'm always a yes man when it comes to sort

41:39 of students asking like paying customers

41:41 asking for something where I'm like, "Well,

41:43 I'm sure we can figure out a way to make it happen." My instinct is that I like

41:49 to So we we tried accountability groups with our YouTuber

41:52 Academy when they were self self-organized and that was

41:55 just basically[ __] show because all it takes is

41:58 one person to be a dick or like to not

42:00 show up and suddenly it's it's sort of the fabric

42:02 of the group sort of breaks down a bit.

42:04 Uh whereas for our YouTube accelerator,

42:06 we found that a accountability group facilitated by one

42:10 of our customer success girls was really effective.

42:13 So she would be leading the accountability group every week and it's the same

42:15 time every week and you can opt into different times times if you want.

42:18 But it's the same group of like eight to 12

42:20 people on a call every week with a coach Mhm.

42:23 having the small group accountability and that worked really well.

42:26 But that's a 5K offer.

42:27 And so I I'm always trying to figure out

42:30 ways that we can add more value to people.

42:32 So I'm as I say, I probably thinking yes.

42:35 Yeah, we do want to have some sort of small group accountability thing going on.

42:39 So this is where I feel like you're in a little bit of an awkward

42:41 spot where I said that you are pricing it at a low ticket,

42:45 but you're delivering at a high ticket experience.

42:47 So doing all of that facilitated groups led by your team,

42:51 that's really a high ticket thing, right?

42:53 Yeah.

42:54 But you're not charging enough for that.

42:55 So then you might say, "Okay, well,

42:56 let's make it self-managed." And there's ways that you might do

42:59 that where people could maybe sign up to be the group leader.

43:02 Yeah.

43:03 They could apply, you interview them, something like that.

43:05 And it's like, "Hey, you are going to commit to maybe it's only 3 months.

43:09 You're going to lead this group.

43:09 You're going to do the 12 calls and then

43:12 at the end you could either choose to go

43:13 and go again or maybe you give it up." So

43:15 there's different ways I think that you could structure that.

43:19 Um I've been in a self-led group that worked really well,

43:21 but it was because there was a group leader and they

43:23 were really committed to it and that kind of thing.

43:25 Yeah, this is kind of a problem

43:26 with this and that a thousand dollars feels like a lot for productivity

43:29 because and then like whenever I'm like loads of people

43:34 have said to me that we're charging too little,

43:36 but I always feel like, "Oh, but like 2,000 a month,

43:39 3,000 a year feels like way too much.

43:41 Oh my god." Yeah.

43:43 Well, okay, so it's funny because right before we launched Productivity Lab,

43:48 your head of product Gareth reached out to me and he was like,

43:51 "I don't know if we can launch this thing at a thousand dollars.

43:53 I think it's way too much, too expensive, right?

43:55 I don't think we have enough stuff in there." Yeah.

43:57 And so he and I had a really good conversation where I took

44:01 him through the journey of what does it mean to uh become productive, right?

44:07 What does that transformation look like?

44:08 What is the value that we are creating for people

44:11 and how much would that be worth in their life?

44:13 And we talked about what would those outcomes be.

44:14 So maybe it's they got promoted at work, they got a raise, they got a new job,

44:18 they were able to switch careers, they were able to sell more clients,

44:21 get more commissions,

44:22 or even just on the personal side of having more time at home,

44:25 having more vacation, be with family, more exercise, right?

44:28 And so we were able to work through all of that and say, "How are we doing this?

44:31 Well, we've got a system, we've got a process, we've got events,

44:35 we've got, you know,

44:35 your your productivity roadmap and all of your um processes.

44:40 And so if someone were to reasonably implement half of that, right?

44:44 Or less and just show up,

44:46 get the work done and move the ball forward and achieve that outcome,

44:48 what would that be worth to them?

44:50 Well, if someone got a raise, you would argue that probably be worth

44:53 at least five or ten thousand dollars, right?

44:56 If they were to sell a bunch more clients, they could make a lot more money.

44:58 So we want to try to deliver at least a 10x return on what we're charging.

45:03 And so by the end of that call, he was like, "Okay,

45:05 this thing is definitely worth a thousand dollars because

45:08 if you were to achieve any of those outcomes, Yeah.

45:11 it's definitely paying for itself.

45:12 But you also have to think about we're training and we're teaching a skill

45:16 that they could likely implement and use for the rest of their life.

45:20 So it's not just how productive will you be in the next 12 months,

45:23 but what result would you achieve if you changed the trajectory

45:26 of your life by a couple of degrees over the next 20, 30, 50 years." Yeah.

45:31 Yeah, it always feels weird thinking about what what would this be worth

45:35 to the students such as the customer cuz in my mind I always go to yeah,

45:41 but how much does it cost us to to deliver or to it's

45:44 sort of cost price based rather than value-based pricing where it's like yeah,

45:48 I mean it's not that hard for us to put together

45:51 four daily Zoom calls doing co-working and having, I don't know,

45:55 six weekly reflection sessions for different time zones and having a quarterly

45:59 webinar and monthly reflection with me and it's not that much work,

46:03 you know, feels like feels like a hundred dollars a month.

46:05 It's like, "Whoa, like you know, if you've if you watch Netflix,

46:08 they're only charging you 12 dollars a month." You know,

46:10 that that sort of thing still still comes comes in into my mind even

46:14 though I've been charging a thousand dollars

46:15 plus for things for a very long time.

46:18 Yeah, do you see that a lot?

46:19 This sort of fear of fear of pricing high?

46:22 Yes, absolutely.

46:23 I think it's the number one challenge that um

46:26 especially newer entrepreneurs face or when someone's moving

46:30 from say a nine to five into being a freelancer or just being out on their own,

46:34 charging is pricing is such an emotional kind of thing

46:38 cuz it ties into like who am I and my value

46:40 and my experience and what are my credentials and how can

46:42 I justify this and how much time is it taking me?

46:45 So I am very much a fan of value-based pricing.

46:49 And what's interesting about it is it means for someone the value

46:53 is incredibly high and this exact same program for someone else is worthless.

46:58 Yeah, that's true.

46:59 Right?

47:00 Yeah, I think often when it comes to price,

47:01 I'm I'm kind towards students because in my mind like the people I'm

47:05 speaking to on my YouTube channel are mostly people younger than me, i.e.

47:09 maybe some of these 25, maybe who's recently graduated from uni,

47:12 maybe they're in their first job or maybe they're still

47:14 a student cuz we have a large student population watching the videos.

47:18 And then I think like, you know,

47:20 I did I did a video with Matt Gray a few months ago that came out

47:22 on his channel where he was basically encouraging me

47:25 to do 24K a year and targeted at entrepreneurs.

47:29 And there was actually quite a lot

47:30 of negative reception to that video when we posted

47:32 it in our YouTube community tab cuz there

47:34 were people in the audience who were like,

47:37 "I can't believe you're considering charging us this insane amount of money.

47:41 We we can't even afford 1,000 dollars.

47:44 Like how could you possibly be thinking

47:46 even entertaining the thought of 24,000 dollars?

47:48 Like this is just absurd." And then sort of intellectually I

47:52 know that that person is is just not the target audience.

47:56 If someone can't afford a thousand dollars,

47:58 they're not the target audience for the product.

48:02 But there's still something about someone saying that like you're

48:05 you're being a an evil person by having the audacity

48:08 to charge that much which prices me as a poor student

48:12 from Pakistan out of out of the out of the equation.

48:15 And it's like, I mean yeah, it kind of does.

48:18 Am I a dick for doing that?

48:19 You know, that kind of thing.

48:21 Yeah, like I said, it's such an emotional topic, right?

48:24 Money is so emotional.

48:26 What people make, what you charge,

48:28 how much Imagine when you price your time per hour

48:31 and and someone finds out like you charge a thousand dollars an hour.

48:35 It's like I'm making 15 dollars an hour working minimum wage.

48:38 How is it possible that one of your hours is worth a hundred of my hours?

48:41 It just doesn't feel right, right?

48:43 And so it goes back to value and what are

48:45 you able to help someone achieve in that period of time?

48:47 Like maybe you're distilling down 20 years of experience

48:51 that you can give someone in one hour versus someone

48:54 like you were saying maybe is a total beginner

48:55 and doesn't really have a whole lot of experience in life.

48:58 So they can't really create that much value

49:00 or help someone that much in one of their hours.

49:03 Um I think about it too like we

49:05 were just walking through London going through some

49:07 of the shops and looking at some of the absurd uh designer wear and it's like,

49:12 "How is this white t-shirt 450 pounds?" Yeah.

49:16 What makes it worth that?

49:18 Well, someone feels something when they wear

49:20 that because it has some brand or some logo,

49:23 but it's just a cotton t-shirt, right?

49:25 It it it does feel like robbery or who

49:28 are they to charge that much money, right?

49:30 And so it's just a t-shirt just like the 20 dollar t-shirt,

49:34 but for some reason some people charge 450 pounds for it

49:39 and some people buy it and they feel great about it.

49:41 Mhm.

49:42 Yeah, it's that thing that even though I've been doing

49:44 this now for 4 plus years since we launched our YouTube Academy,

49:47 it's still amazes me that like that we

49:52 can get away with charging so much so much.

49:54 Mhm.

49:55 And then I speak to other people who are like,

49:56 "A thousand dollars, dude, that's chump change.

49:57 Come on.

49:58 Like you should be doing at least 10K if not 15." And I remember so I was

50:02 I was giving a talk at Cambridge a few months ago um when my book was launching.

50:06 And some guy came up to me afterwards and he was like

50:08 a 19-year-old medical student and he was like, "Hey, so you know,

50:10 so I'm doing I'm doing private tutoring on the side." And I was like, "Oh,

50:15 how much are you charging?" And he was like, "Oh,

50:17 I'm charging a lot." And I was like, "Oh, you're Oh, okay.

50:20 How How How much is a lot?

50:22 What are we talking?" And he was like,

50:23 "No, no, no, I couldn't I couldn't possibly say.

50:24 It's you know, it's it's it's it's too much." And I was like, "Come on.

50:28 You You know, we're bros.

50:29 You can trust me.

50:30 How How much are you charging?" And he was like,

50:32 "Charging 45 pounds an hour." Um I was like, "Oh, this is interesting.

50:39 This is like this guy is like 10 years younger than me,

50:43 thinks that charging 45 pounds an hour is so

50:46 much that he couldn't even tell me the number." Yeah.

50:50 And it is because for the audience of kids that he's

50:52 doing private tutoring for, 45 pounds an hour is a lot.

50:56 But then I know someone who was charging 500

50:57 an hour to do private tutoring for the Nigerian royal family.

51:00 They got money.

51:01 It's like it's flying around in their private

51:03 jet in the summer holidays and tutoring their kids.

51:05 That's a completely different equation.

51:08 And then I was thinking about myself.

51:09 I was like, "Well, right now to me charging a thousand

51:12 dollars for a productivity lab community where we're over-delivering so much

51:15 value with a ridiculous money-back guarantee where for any reason we'll

51:18 just give people their money back still feels like a lot.

51:21 And when I speak to entrepreneurs who are doing 10 million plus,

51:23 they sort of laugh at me in the same way

51:24 that I laughed out loud when the guy told me thought

51:27 that 45 pounds an hour was a lot." And it's just

51:31 so interesting how I think how money taps into you know,

51:35 psychology and emotions and self-worth and limiting beliefs

51:38 and imposter syndrome and all of these things.

51:40 There are so many people I know who are YouTubers charging

51:43 like 300 dollars for a course and thinking, "Oh my god,

51:46 how How can I How can I have the audacity

51:48 to charge 300 dollars for a course?" Um it's just yeah,

51:52 at every level it just seems to be a a psychology game.

51:55 Absolutely.

51:56 And price is one of the best filters that you have for customer selection.

52:01 Mhm.

52:01 Right?

52:01 So, you could take this course, whatever you're doing,

52:04 you charge a hundred dollars for it, it's going to attract a certain audience.

52:08 It's going to attract that student audience who

52:09 maybe still would struggle to pay for it, but they would find a way and that's

52:13 going to create a certain type of environment,

52:15 especially if it's inside of a community where everyone can interact.

52:18 If you were to take that exact same program and charge 10,000 for it,

52:21 it can be the exact same promise, double your productivity,

52:24 but for CEOs doubling their productivity that means millions

52:27 of dollars and they would easily pay for it.

52:28 And so now you have a group of fewer, but maybe more experienced people,

52:33 CEOs versus a much larger, much less experienced crowd.

52:37 Questions are going to be different,

52:38 problems are going to be different, environment's going to be different.

52:41 So, it's up to you to really think about who do I best serve, right?

52:44 Where can I create the most value for people?

52:47 Who do I most enjoy serving?

52:49 Ooh, that's a good question.

52:52 Yeah.

52:54 I really enjoy serving the entrepreneurs who are at like

52:57 five or six figures wanting to get to seven.

52:59 That's a really fun audience for me.

53:01 I could jam out with that audience all day long.

53:03 I don't feel any imposter syndrome.

53:04 I feel like I have value to share.

53:06 I feel like they're they're my people cuz

53:08 they've had jobs and they've quit the jobs.

53:10 So, they all have have that life experience of going through that transition.

53:13 None of their friends are in that same boat and so they feel like,

53:16 "Can't really talk to my friends about this[ __] because they

53:18 all they all have jobs." And I love serving that audience.

53:21 Um I gave a talk earlier today at Icon and that's that audience.

53:25 And they were like, "Do you want to go

53:26 to the VIP dinner afterwards?" I was like, "You know what?

53:28 Yeah, honestly like it's probably not worth It's not It's not worth my time.

53:31 But it's just fun hanging out people like that who are building businesses

53:35 and we get to jam on business stuff It's just It's just kind of cool.

53:38 I think that's the audience that currently lights me up.

53:42 Back in the day like 10 years ago,

53:43 I used to love serving medical school applicants cuz it was like, "Oh,

53:46 I can help these guys get into med

53:47 school and change their lives." But now I'm no

53:50 longer enthralled by the thought of hanging out

53:53 with students really unless they're like very entrepreneurial students.

53:56 Um cuz I'm just I'm just playing a different game now and I sort of want

54:00 to hang out with people who are playing a similar game at a similar-ish level.

54:05 Does that make sense?

54:06 Yeah, and that's what I love about entrepreneurship is you

54:09 get to create the game and all of the rules.

54:11 You get to charge what you want to charge.

54:13 It doesn't matter what anyone else says or thinks.

54:15 You're never going to be able to make everyone happy.

54:17 I mean, you have a huge audience so you know that probably

54:19 every video somehow pisses someone off or rubs them the wrong way.

54:23 Someone disagrees with something that you say.

54:25 So, that's just going to continue to happen forever.

54:27 But it's up to you to get to choose who do I best serve,

54:30 who do I want to work with, who do I enjoy creating content for and helping.

54:35 And that's one of the ingredients that you

54:36 would use when coming up with your pricing.

54:38 Have you Have you been a therapist

54:40 for any other creators about this pricing stuff?

54:42 What sort of stuff do you say?

54:43 Or what sort of struggles do people have when it comes to pricing?

54:46 So, one of the other biggest struggles is

54:47 that people are fixated on the monthly price.

54:53 They're like, "Okay, I want to make this really cool thing.

54:55 It's going to be awesome.

54:56 It's going to have this and this and this and it's

54:57 going to be 100 bucks a month." And I go, "Okay, why is it going to be monthly

55:02 pricing?" And they're like, "What do you mean?

55:04 Like everything is monthly pricing.

55:05 It has to be monthly pricing, right?" It's like,

55:07 "No, we have a lot of other options, right?

55:09 It could be one time, could be lifetime, it could be annual.

55:13 But it depends what are we helping someone achieve?

55:16 So, if you're paying for Netflix, it makes sense that it's monthly.

55:19 You get 30 days, watch as many movies as you want, right?

55:21 And then every 30 days you kind of make that decision,

55:24 'Am I getting value from this?

55:25 Do I still want this?

55:26 Is there anything new next month?' Same with the gym.

55:28 You show up and use the machines, right?

55:30 University doesn't charge you by the month, right?

55:33 It's like, 'Ah, I think I'll opt out this month.

55:34 I'm not really feeling it, you know, maybe I'll go on vacation,

55:37 come back next month.' It's like, 'No, you're committed, right?

55:41 You've signed up for the entire year, for the entire semester.

55:44 You pay it all up front.

55:46 And now it's up to you to actually show up and do the work.

55:49 They're going to provide all of all of the services,

55:52 but it's now your responsibility to get the transformation and get the outcome.

55:56 And so if the outcome is going to take many,

55:59 many months or many years, why are you charging monthly?

56:02 Because for a very long time they're going to be asking themselves,

56:04 'Am I really getting an ROI on this?

56:06 Am I getting the value on this?' And the answer is going to be no.

56:09 And you're giving them the opportunity to cancel and churn every 30 days.

56:13 And so if someone does have a hardship of money

56:16 or they get sick or they're going to travel,

56:18 it might start to look pretty enticing to like

56:21 put things on pause and come back to this later.

56:23 And in the online courses, community,

56:25 coaching world, that pretty much means never.

56:28 So, you're going to lose them.

56:29 Someone listening to this might be like, "Man,

56:31 this Jordan guy is evil." Are you really

56:33 saying that we want to lock people into paying

56:35 for a thing when they might be ill or they

56:36 might have lost their job or anything like that?

56:38 Like we've we've got annual only for productivity lab at the moment.

56:42 People A lot of people are asking us for a monthly or a quarterly option.

56:45 And so we're like, this this this almost

56:49 like and I'm I'm unsure about the answer

56:53 for this, but it almost like it almost feels like there's a moral question here.

56:57 Is it right to charge someone an annual price?

57:03 And I can come up with reasons.

57:03 We have very firm policies and stuff.

57:04 But yeah, I'm I'm curious what's your take

57:06 on like the morality of annual versus monthly pricing?

57:10 Well, I think the university example is pretty good, right?

57:14 I don't know of any university that would

57:16 allow you to just have a monthly subscription Yeah.

57:19 that you can pause and But when someone is signing up for your program,

57:23 you are committing to deliver the full thing to them, right?

57:26 You're committing to show up every week,

57:27 to hire your team, to do all of the things.

57:30 Um and when they're signing up for it,

57:33 they're not signing up for the daily events or the different components.

57:38 They're really signing up to achieve the outcome, right?

57:40 And so when you signed up for med school, you signed up to become a doctor.

57:44 You didn't sign up for this many science classes, this many math classes, right?

57:47 And so it's like, 'Ah, I think I'll just skip some of these math classes.

57:50 Can I have a few dollars back on that?' It's like you can't really cut it out.

57:54 So, you're signing up for the entire thing and for the outcome.

57:57 And what I've seen so uh there's a famous coach

58:01 Brendon Burchard and I went to one of his coaching

58:04 summits and one of his phrases that really stuck

58:07 with me is that coaches are paid to push.

58:10 When someone hires a coach,

58:12 they want to be pushed because achieving any type of big transformation is hard.

58:18 And it is going to take probably twice as long as you think it will.

58:22 And maybe even cost you twice as much as as you think it will.

58:26 And so you've said on day one, "I want this thing." Maybe it's you want to build

58:31 more muscle or you want to build a seven-figure business.

58:34 There will be times in there that it's going

58:35 to get really hard and you maybe want to give up.

58:38 Maybe you only actually want to give up in the moment,

58:40 you know, because you actually said, "I want to achieve that thing." But there

58:44 will be times where it becomes uncomfortable.

58:46 And so if your goal as the creator is to truly help people,

58:51 then you're going to have to help them through those hard moments as well.

58:55 And so that might be checking in on them,

58:56 accountability, getting on a one-on-one call,

58:58 understanding like why have you not been showing up,

59:00 you know, how can we help you?

59:01 What is it that you need?

59:02 Is it a different time zone thing?

59:03 Is it a new video that we can create for you?

59:06 But to me, it's actually in the heart of service to align everything towards

59:11 that end goal and they are the one that is voluntarily opting in saying,

59:14 "I want that goal and I believe that you can help get me there." Yeah.

59:18 And so maybe you need to take a month or two off.

59:21 That's okay.

59:22 That's life, right?

59:23 Like things get really busy.

59:25 We all go on vacation.

59:25 We all get sick, but it's not like we quit

59:27 our jobs every time we get sick or go on vacation saying,

59:30 "I'll be back in a few weeks when I'm feeling better.

59:32 It's like no, we have these long-term commitments even though life is happening.

59:37 And so that's just the way that I look

59:38 at it is you want to work with people that are

59:40 really invested in your program cuz it's also kind

59:43 of demoralizing if you as the creator you've put your heart

59:46 and soul into building this thing and you get like

59:48 500 people to sign up and then next month half

59:51 of them cancel cuz they all go on holiday cuz

59:52 it's July or it's August and you're like what happened?

59:55 I just churned I just lost half my business.

59:57 It's like oh no, they all said they'll be back in 2 months.

1:00:00 And then they don't come back, right?

1:00:01 And so you also need a bit of stability, right?

1:00:03 You have to look out for you as the business

1:00:06 owner as the creator especially if you're trying

1:00:08 to leave your 9-5 and you're trying to be

1:00:09 on your own that could be a really big scary transition.

1:00:12 And so you want to work with clients and have a business model that supports

1:00:16 that and that is going to give you some

1:00:17 stability to work with people for the long term.

1:00:20 Yeah.

1:00:21 I like that.

1:00:21 Yeah, it's a it's a voluntary contract people are engaging in.

1:00:24 They know the price up front.

1:00:26 And yeah, people email us and say hey

1:00:27 look my dog died I had an unexpected whatever.

1:00:30 Yeah, of course we're going to give them like yeah, we don't.

1:00:32 Exactly.

1:00:33 We're not going to hang on to it as a sort of a ransom but yeah,

1:00:36 there is a difference between having the cancel

1:00:38 monthly subscription option available at a click you know,

1:00:41 for just one click away versus actually encouraging people to sign up for well,

1:00:46 making it clear that the commitment is for a whole year.

1:00:48 And not not even just having the one

1:00:50 click available but reminding them every 30 days.

1:00:53 Do you want to cancel this month?

1:00:54 Do you want to cancel this month?

1:00:55 It's like you're going to probably get a lot of people deciding

1:00:58 to click that button when you're constantly asking them to go away to quit.

1:01:02 So we just like to have one commitment up front

1:01:05 of you're going to join this program and this is

1:01:07 how much it costs and then you get access

1:01:08 for a year and you don't have to worry about it.

1:01:10 And then we get to spend the whole

1:01:11 year working together to help you get that outcome.

1:01:13 Does that sound good?

1:01:14 And they say yeah.

1:01:16 Cool.

1:01:17 Nice.

1:01:17 Yeah, that sounds pretty good when you put it that way.

1:01:19 Um a bit of a niche question but one

1:01:23 of the things I've heard against one of the arguments

1:01:25 I've heard against annual billing is that you don't

1:01:27 get a true sense of what your uh churn is.

1:01:32 In that well, we've got 500 people who signed up in May of 2024 we

1:01:36 won't actually know what the renewal rate

1:01:38 on these people is up until May of 2025.

1:01:40 And in a way it had we done

1:01:43 monthly billing or quarterly billing it would have forced

1:01:45 us internally to be more honest because someone

1:01:49 canceling their subscription is then a vote you know,

1:01:52 they're voting with their money.

1:01:54 Whereas someone might have signed up they got 3 months

1:01:56 of value out of it and then they sort of you know,

1:01:58 ghosted and yeah, we reached out to them but they didn't reply.

1:02:01 And the the only time we find out that they're not going

1:02:04 to renew is the following year and then what if like 70%

1:02:09 of the cohort cancels then and now we've uh-oh 70% of business is

1:02:12 now gone and we didn't know it up front if that makes sense.

1:02:15 How how would you think about that?

1:02:16 Yeah, well I think you always want to be

1:02:18 putting new people in the top of the funnel, right?

1:02:21 So you're not just going to sell this one group of 500 people and then service

1:02:25 them for the next 5 years and hope that they just all renew every single year.

1:02:31 So new people are going to be joining and this is just a super common

1:02:34 aspect of business is that people are going to be churning and and dropping out.

1:02:38 But the other thing to think about too is what is the realistic

1:02:42 expectation of how long someone should be a part of the program?

1:02:46 So for you I feel like what you're actually helping

1:02:49 to do is install this productivity system into their life.

1:02:53 So you're helping them to create these habits and to think of it differently.

1:02:57 Once they've fully ingrained that and are doing that on their own they

1:03:01 may not really need to continue to show up to those collective sessions.

1:03:05 Right?

1:03:06 And so I would actually count that as a successful outcome of the program.

1:03:10 So that graduate could go through the whole year.

1:03:12 They could start to change their behavior, change their life,

1:03:15 start to do this on their own naturally every week reviewing their week,

1:03:18 doing these focus sessions,

1:03:19 counting how productive they are and then at the end go this was amazing cancel.

1:03:24 Right?

1:03:24 And say thanks Ali.

1:03:26 This was awesome.

1:03:27 I'm now way more productive and I have a framework

1:03:29 for the rest of my life to use to do better.

1:03:33 Yeah, that would actually be a good result.

1:03:35 So I think yeah, absolutely.

1:03:37 So you can't just use one metric to try

1:03:40 to measure and figure out is the business working?

1:03:42 Is the product working?

1:03:43 Is it good or bad, right?

1:03:44 So churn is not really the best metric in this in this regard.

1:03:47 I think you want to have a qualitative and a quantitative measure.

1:03:50 So qualitatively we want to be checking

1:03:52 in with people let's say on a quarterly basis, right?

1:03:55 Like you're 3 months into productivity lab.

1:03:56 Have you set your life vision?

1:03:58 Do you have your quarterly plan?

1:03:59 Have you started doing these things, right?

1:04:00 And then by the end they should be saying yes to all of those things.

1:04:04 Or you should be seeing that they have basically disengaged

1:04:07 and kind of dropped out for whatever reason life stuff.

1:04:10 They've decided hey, I'm not really that into the productivity

1:04:12 stuff anymore or whatever and that's okay, too.

1:04:14 And so some percentage of those people will likely renew.

1:04:19 Um but what you could also do is we can continue to iterate

1:04:23 on the program and add new value and new things just like Netflix does,

1:04:27 you know, don't cancel because next month we're going

1:04:29 to release this new series and it's like ah, I really want to see that.

1:04:31 Okay, I'm not going to cancel.

1:04:33 So if you're able to forecast in the future and say next year

1:04:36 we're going to do a live event in London or we're going to bring

1:04:39 in a few other speakers or whatever that could be a good incentive for people

1:04:43 to want to stick around even if

1:04:44 they already implemented some of the other stuff.

1:04:46 Yeah, okay.

1:04:47 That's interesting.

1:04:48 Um what do you think we should do with our YouTuber Academy?

1:04:50 At the moment it's a $1,000 single single time payment self-paced

1:04:54 course with like free access to the community on the side

1:04:58 but the community is a bit like neglected right now

1:05:02 and we want to kind of start taking a lot more seriously.

1:05:05 And seeing what's happened with productivity lab my idea was why don't we

1:05:08 just copy uh copy and paste that same model $997 for the year.

1:05:13 Building a YouTube channel is a long-term commitment so maybe we would allow

1:05:17 quarterly pricing for people who just want to see dip their toes in.

1:05:22 I don't think we would we want to go to monthly at all.

1:05:25 And we just we give them the course if it's given

1:05:29 that it's recurring revenue gives us a reason to update the course,

1:05:31 make sure we add modules about AI for YouTubers and thumbnails and bonus stuff.

1:05:36 And we just take the community aspect much more seriously.

1:05:39 How does that land with you?

1:05:41 Anything you would think about?

1:05:42 So what does it mean to take the community aspect more seriously?

1:05:46 Probably I mean at the moment we have like one community

1:05:48 event each month but we'd probably do a little bit more.

1:05:52 We'd probably like we do in real life meetups and in fairness we do

1:05:55 do quite a lot for this free community that they get lifetime access to.

1:05:59 We have like meetups three times a year often

1:06:01 in London but also we did one in Austin, we did one in where else we get?

1:06:06 Yeah, in Austin.

1:06:08 We do like monthly guest workshops.

1:06:10 I think just it feel to to me it feels weird to be continuing

1:06:14 to give so much value for a thing that they are not paying for.

1:06:17 Cuz they paid one off for the for the course

1:06:19 and they're not paying for the community so I'm always

1:06:20 a bit like whenever we're whenever they want the PTY team

1:06:24 wants me to do a community workshop I'm always like ah.

1:06:28 Like you know, I'm happy to do a meetup and hang out with people

1:06:30 in real life but like the thought of being on Zoom for 2

1:06:32 hours to people that bought a course 4 years ago and are not

1:06:35 paying us anymore like that sort of hurts me inside in a weird way.

1:06:39 Am I am I a bad person?

1:06:41 Not at all.

1:06:42 I had this exact same problem.

1:06:43 And so what's going on is the incentives are misaligned, right?

1:06:47 Someone paid one time 4 years ago and now

1:06:50 they just get unlimited value from you forever.

1:06:53 Like how does that make sense?

1:06:54 Where where else does that exist anywhere in the world?

1:06:57 It doesn't really.

1:06:58 So if you want ongoing revenue then you have to provide ongoing value.

1:07:03 You're already providing this ongoing value.

1:07:05 You should be charging for it.

1:07:06 So I launched a course a few years ago where I'm talking about

1:07:10 communities and stuff and it was a DIY on demand watch the videos.

1:07:15 So I committed to showing up once a week

1:07:17 to do these live coaching calls and it just

1:07:19 started going on forever but people had only paid

1:07:22 one time a very low ticket for this course.

1:07:25 And then I realized the incentives were

1:07:27 totally misaligned and people weren't even showing up.

1:07:29 So now I'm committing my time to run these calls for free

1:07:32 and then people aren't even showing up because they're not even invested.

1:07:35 They're not even paying ongoing and so they're like well what am I losing?

1:07:39 I didn't really even pay for this.

1:07:40 And that became a very demoralizing event where

1:07:42 it's like I'm trying to give away value because

1:07:44 I said I would cuz I want to support

1:07:46 my customers and then they're not even interested.

1:07:48 So I switched it to a monthly recurring

1:07:52 where after you join the program if you want

1:07:54 to continue to get coaching and these live calls

1:07:57 you're going at least going to pay for it.

1:07:59 And now people are showing up every single

1:08:01 week cuz they're getting the value from it

1:08:02 and now me and my team are super happy with it and it's going great.

1:08:06 Okay, nice.

1:08:07 Yeah, so I think you should definitely do something where there's a recurring

1:08:10 revenue quarterly or yearly because there's so much that you could do.

1:08:14 And so have you thought about this as like

1:08:17 a course coaching program where there could be feedback,

1:08:20 there could be other YouTube coaches, people on your team that are like Yeah,

1:08:24 this is what what what we're trying to figure out.

1:08:25 So we've got our YouTube accelerator which was

1:08:28 previously five grand for a for a year

1:08:31 uh which we want to sort of squeeze down to either five grand

1:08:35 or six or seven for 6 months cuz a year was just a bit

1:08:38 too long where they were getting weekly

1:08:40 office hours with like everyone on my team.

1:08:42 So there was like two things a day happening where they could

1:08:45 just hop on a call and ask any one of my team questions.

1:08:47 They had like feedback on 26 of their videos.

1:08:49 They had uh accountability call group

1:08:52 accountability calls with one of our coaches.

1:08:54 There's a lot going on in this program.

1:08:56 And so we had that and then we've got our YouTuber Academy just a $1,000 course.

1:09:02 And so what we're thinking is we turn the $1,000 course into $1,000

1:09:06 a year community plus course that mishmash

1:09:10 thing similar to what productivity lab is.

1:09:12 And then we keep the 5K 5K for 3 months

1:09:15 or 5K for 6 months offering that gives them more intensive support

1:09:18 and hand-holding from the team for that for that short period

1:09:20 of time and then they just go back into the community or not,

1:09:23 you know, whatever whatever they want.

1:09:24 How does that sound?

1:09:25 Yeah.

1:09:27 Yeah, I think it's good.

1:09:27 So, people can get into the course for a thousand

1:09:31 for a year and have access to the community.

1:09:33 So, everyone else who's going through the course can

1:09:35 be sharing updates and asking questions and all of that.

1:09:37 But, if they actually want active coaching from your team,

1:09:41 feedback, live sessions, then they're paying for the accelerator.

1:09:44 Yes.

1:09:45 I mean, I'd probably do we would probably do live sessions

1:09:48 within the community like monthly whatever workshop from another YouTuber or so,

1:09:52 you know, things things like that.

1:09:53 Would it be less frequent?

1:09:55 It would be less frequent, probably like once a month.

1:09:57 Whereas, they join the accelerator, there's stuff happening every day.

1:09:59 Yeah.

1:10:00 Office hours and things that they can join.

1:10:02 Yeah.

1:10:02 So, it's very clear the separation for me of value.

1:10:05 If they want to kind of go slowish around other people,

1:10:09 they go through the course kind of on their own.

1:10:11 If they want to go a lot faster,

1:10:12 it's a lot more intense and there's a lot more things that they have

1:10:15 access to and they're getting your team's

1:10:17 active involvement on a daily weekly basis.

1:10:21 Yeah.

1:10:21 Kind of as we as we talk about this, I

1:10:22 feel like that should just be a three-month program.

1:10:25 Like 5K for three months feels like, oh yeah, well,

1:10:27 you're we're going to work with you intensively for three months to help

1:10:29 you level up to whatever stage you need to get to and then great.

1:10:33 Feel free to renew or like just, you know, go back into the community.

1:10:36 Is there a specific outcome that you can put to that?

1:10:39 Like, what would the transformation be of the 90-day program?

1:10:41 It would kind of be the same as the transformation for the course,

1:10:43 which is you build your own like YouTube

1:10:45 productivity system that makes content creation as effortless

1:10:48 as it can as it can reasonably be for you and hopefully you enjoy it as well.

1:10:52 So, the 90-day program would be more like basically that's the transformation,

1:10:56 but you actually get support well well you

1:10:59 get more one-on-one and group support along the way.

1:11:01 Mhm.

1:11:02 Does that make sense?

1:11:02 Yeah.

1:11:04 Yeah, so you have one clear goal that they're all trying to achieve,

1:11:07 but then you have two paths.

1:11:08 Yes.

1:11:09 Right?

1:11:09 Yeah.

1:11:10 Two different price points.

1:11:11 And so, I think it makes sense.

1:11:12 It's like, hey, we've got this gym and you can come

1:11:14 and use all the equipment as much as you want and it's great.

1:11:17 Mhm.

1:11:17 Or you can work with this trainer and have all these coaches

1:11:20 and have these rooms and have

1:11:21 these group programs and you'll probably do better.

1:11:25 You will probably lose more weight or build more muscle,

1:11:28 maybe get access to a nutritionist, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

1:11:30 Yes.

1:11:31 But, it's going to cost five times as much.

1:11:33 Yeah.

1:11:33 Makes total sense.

1:11:34 Yeah.

1:11:34 Okay.

1:11:34 That seems reasonable.

1:11:35 Yeah, it feels kind of weird to be switching

1:11:36 our stuff over to this sort of recurring revenue model.

1:11:39 But, it it feels good because it'll be nice.

1:11:42 But, it's also like, well, it's annual billing,

1:11:43 so we don't really know how many people renew and it's

1:11:45 like the all all of all of that sort of stuff.

1:11:47 It feels sort of like a new area for the business.

1:11:50 Cuz I'm very comfortable selling self-paced courses where it's one and done.

1:11:54 There's a lot of work to maintain it because it's like with one and done.

1:11:58 But, also yeah, if I'm honest about it,

1:12:01 I think self-paced courses that are one and done don't

1:12:04 actually serve the student because there's no incentive for me

1:12:06 to update the course that I made a year ago

1:12:09 even though stuff has changed on YouTube cuz it's like, why would I update it?

1:12:12 What's the point?

1:12:13 Um the courses that we made three years ago are still selling.

1:12:18 But, to me it sort of feels like those should

1:12:19 be part of the thousand dollar a year subscription.

1:12:22 And so, as we add more stuff, as more stuff evolves,

1:12:25 as our processes change cuz we're also learning,

1:12:27 we're updating the stuff as we go along,

1:12:29 which then makes sense because students are paying for that recurring value.

1:12:31 I think when you align incentives like

1:12:33 that, it actually works out better for everyone.

1:12:35 Mhm.

1:12:36 So, you know, earlier we were talking about pricing and charging higher ticket

1:12:41 and locking people in and is that evil and the morality behind all of that.

1:12:45 But, I believe that there's this kind of pyramid, right?

1:12:49 And so, if you are healthiest as a business,

1:12:53 you have recurring revenue, you have stability,

1:12:54 then your incentive is to continue to pour

1:12:57 into that program and make it as good as possible

1:12:59 and to help all of those students succeed

1:13:01 so that you have great testimonials and case studies.

1:13:04 Because people will say, you know,

1:13:05 what are your credentials or who are you to be charging this?

1:13:08 It's like, well, we've got hundreds of students who

1:13:11 are very very happy and who have achieved the promise.

1:13:13 So, it's very much in your best interest

1:13:15 that all of them are successful versus, okay,

1:13:18 I've put together this course and it's only a few hundred bucks and you can

1:13:20 go watch it on your own and most of them are not going to be successful.

1:13:23 So, let's say you switch to this recurring revenue.

1:13:25 A lot of them are going to continue to renew,

1:13:27 but now you are going to be making the program better and better.

1:13:30 So, your business going to grow,

1:13:31 it's going to be healthier and now there might be people saying,

1:13:33 well, I can't even afford the thousand dollars.

1:13:35 So, that's not fair.

1:13:36 Mhm.

1:13:37 It's like, well, you then can take bits and pieces,

1:13:40 whatever you choose and put that on your YouTube channel, right?

1:13:42 You can still be giving things away for free and you have the lead magnets,

1:13:45 you got like a one dollar course.

1:13:47 So, you can really serve everyone really well by getting really

1:13:51 clear on what those incentives are and what those different offers are.

1:13:54 But, you can't serve everyone all at the same time with the same offer.

1:13:57 Yeah.

1:13:58 Yeah, I really kind of want to I want to put

1:14:00 a one dollar course just as a free YouTube video.

1:14:02 Like it's going to be four and a half hours long.

1:14:04 But, there's something nice about that being

1:14:05 available for free and if people want, they can sign up to the community

1:14:08 or the course or whatever we call it, the academy.

1:14:10 Um that kind of thing.

1:14:12 Jordan, thank you.

1:14:13 This has been wonderful.

1:14:13 Um where can people learn more about you and the work that you do?

1:14:17 Yeah, thanks for having me, man.

1:14:18 It's been great.

1:14:19 So, we put together a really cool resource for people who

1:14:22 are interested in community where it's a bit of a behind

1:14:24 the scenes look at how we designed and built Productivity

1:14:27 Lab with you following our nine-step community launch road map.

1:14:30 So, if people want to check it out,

1:14:32 they can go to growthcommunity.co/ali and they can follow along.

1:14:36 So, if they're interested in building their own community,

1:14:39 that'll give them some tips.

1:14:40 Nice.

1:14:41 Thank you.

1:14:41 That's great.

1:14:42 We'll put a link in the show in the video notes in the video

1:14:43 description and in the show notes if you want to check that out.

1:14:45 So, that's growthcommunity.co/ali.

1:14:48 Yeah.

1:14:48 And they can download that for free, no strings attached.

1:14:50 Awesome bang.

1:14:51 That's it and then I am at Jordan Godby on Twitter and LinkedIn.

1:14:55 Sick and we'll put links to all of that as well.

1:14:57 Thanks very much.

1:14:57 Thanks, man.

1:14:59 All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive.

1:15:00 Thank you so much for watching or listening.

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1:15:29 Bye-bye.