6 Couples Uncovering Triggers | Couples Therapy

0:00 I'm scared.

0:01 I don't want to do this again.

0:02 That was really traumatizing.

0:04 Like, every time we go out to eat, I'm, like, so grateful.

0:08 Just to be able to share a meal with someone.

0:10 I ate alone for so long by myself.

0:13 I learned my lesson.

0:15 Like, I get it.

0:16 I need to be, like, in touch with my body

0:18 and I'm trying to, but I don't know— well, I'm running out of tools.

0:22 [MUSIC PLAYING] DESEAN: I screenshotted a text exchange between us.

0:29 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

0:30 DESEAN: She asked me a question,

0:32 and if you look at the time, let's say it was 3:01.

0:35 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

0:37 DESEAN: And then she'll— she texted right after that, 3:02,

0:41 why aren't you answering me?

0:43 One minute later.

0:44 Mmm hmm.

0:45 I'm just curious.

0:46 Do you have any thoughts that are not,

0:47 like, within it but, like, thoughts about this dynamic.

0:52 I will say that I hold on to a feeling.

1:00 Something he did made me feel a certain way.

1:03 ORNA: What's the feeling that keeps coming?

1:05 Insecure.

1:06 Insecure.

1:07 Insecure.

1:07 Absolutely.

1:08 Because if you don't pay— ORNA:

1:09 I— what— you keep going back to that I think is the feeling is he doesn't care.

1:15 He doesn't.

1:16 Well.

1:17 I'm sorry.

1:18 Let's not equate the feeling with truth.

1:22 The feeling that you keep going back to ultimately is he doesn't care.

1:26 Correct.

1:27 ORNA: Right.

1:28 So that kind of colors everything.

1:30 Yeah.

1:31 ORNA: He's busy equals he doesn't care.

1:33 He doesn't go to the gym equals he doesn't care.

1:37 Right— there— there's— there's a deep seated he doesn't care.

1:41 Now I want to hear more.

1:42 We just touched a little bit on your history.

1:46 But for sure what you've described is a lot of no one cared, right,

1:52 and a lot of loneliness and a lot of doing it on your own.

1:57 Mmm hmm.

1:58 ORNA: Right.

2:00 You're taking a deep breath.

2:01 I'm sorry.

2:02 I'm going right in there.

2:04 [EXHALING] What's the matter?

2:11 What's the matter?

2:14 [EXHALING] Interesting.

2:21 Mmm hmm.

2:22 Very interesting.

2:29 Do I have raccoon eyes?

2:31 No.

2:32 No?

2:32 No.

2:33 OK.

2:36 I think from a very early age that was pretty much the narrative.

2:44 Mmm hmm.

2:46 I left my grandmother's house when I was 15, and I was free.

2:51 I was free.

2:54 ORNA: Free but alone.

2:55 But— free but alone.

2:57 Free but alone.

3:01 And then, you know, as a— as a young kid, you don't know what you're doing,

3:06 right, so you're going to go back to what feels safe.

3:08 And so I kept going back to my grandmother.

3:11 And, you know, you don't think people will do things until you see it.

3:25 Like, I feel like— Are you— are you

3:27 thinking of something in particular when you're saying that?

3:30 My grandmother and my— my father's people didn't like my mother,

3:37 and the cops were looking for my mother.

3:42 I knew where my mother was.

3:44 I had come in, and they were in the back, my grandmother and my aunt.

3:48 And they were plotting because the detectives were coming,

3:52 looking for my mother at my grandmother's house.

3:55 And they— they were going to say that I told

3:58 where my mother was and the cops took my mother.

4:02 My mother went to jail thinking that I told on her.

4:06 And— and I heard them say that.

4:10 Like, why would you do that?

4:11 Why would you do that?

4:14 That was a major double betrayal.

4:17 Yeah.

4:19 Yeah.

4:20 But, you know, shame on me because I gave the benefit of the doubt,

4:26 and I should have known better.

4:28 And I think— Can I— can I just pause for a second.

4:32 How are you feeling listening to this?

4:34 Bad.

4:36 Messed up, man.

4:39 That's— that's a world of hurt.

4:40 That—- A world of hurt.

4:43 Yeah.

4:44 Yeah.

4:44 Yeah.

4:45 A world of hurt.

4:46 Yeah.

4:46 Yeah.

4:47 But to— to bring it specifically into this dynamic that the two of you are

4:52 here with, the shadow of that kind

4:55 of you can find it sketched into your relationship,

4:59 right, because you go towards— with DeSean,

5:03 you go towards what comes up for you repeatedly,

5:06 what pops up like a hologram is this feeling of aloneness, of nobody cares.

5:17 It's interesting.

5:21 It's frustrating for me though.

5:25 ORNA: Because you're dealing with history.

5:27 You're not only dealing with here and now.

5:29 Yeah.

5:29 Yeah.

5:30 I mean, this kind of loneliness that you're describing,

5:32 I mean, you can't make it all better.

5:37 DRU: It was Mother's Day, so I had got her a gift and I wanted to surprise her.

5:45 And I know she's always wanted a boy mom t-shirt.

5:48 So I actually bought the shirt, and she was like— I said do you like it?

5:52 And she was like, no.

5:55 She's like I don't like v-necks, and it's not a good material.

5:58 And that got me so upset.

6:00 So I was just, you know what?

6:02 Throw the shit out and that's it.

6:05 My issue with the shirt is just the way that it was gonna look on me,

6:10 the way that I'm feeling about my body right now.

6:13 It had nothing to do with— So why didn't you say that?

6:17 I'm gonna look on the baby again.

6:18 I— I— yeah, the baby again.

6:19 I had said I didn't like the material because it's embarrassing.

6:22 Like, I don't wanna be like I don't like

6:24 the shirt because it's gonna make me look fat.

6:26 Oh, so rather just hurt my feelings.

6:29 No I wasn't— it wasn't [INAUDIBLE] Well, Tashira,

6:31 but there is— there is a way— I think there's something about,

6:38 that you sometimes don't really go all the way

6:45 to consider the impact of what you say.

6:47 I agree with that.

6:48 You're kind of reckless in the way you speak.

6:52 I know.

6:53 No, I— I total— I totally agree with that.

6:56 And I realized that when he came back into the room and, you know,

6:59 he started off with this is really hard for me know,

7:02 you know, but I'm gonna say it.

7:04 You know, that really hurt my feelings.

7:06 And he was like huffing and puffing through it.

7:09 I don't know.

7:10 Maybe I'm harsh because I try to push people away.

7:13 Like, I just— you know, I really don't have a— I don't have an excuse for it.

7:18 I don't have— You don't need an excuse for it,

7:21 but it's something you might want to take a good look at it.

7:26 Work on.

7:27 Yeah.

7:28 I know.

7:29 [BABY FUSSING] Hello.

7:30 Say good morning.

7:32 Good morning.

7:33 Sorry.

7:34 [LAUGHTER] It's OK, baby.

7:38 [INAUDIBLE] He's like I didn't wake up for therapy.

7:44 I know, right.

7:47 After, like, the heated part about it,

7:50 I said what I'm gonna tell you is super not easy for me.

7:54 It is like— it's making me cringe inside.

7:57 And it kind of took me a little while to actually spit

8:00 the words out because I don't know why it's so hard for me,

8:03 but I just told her, like— and I kind of, like,

8:06 mumbled it because it was so hard for me to say.

8:08 I'm just like it— you— it hurt my feelings

8:11 about what you said or about your response.

8:14 ORNA: Yeah.

8:16 Great.

8:18 It hurt my feelings.

8:19 And— That's all.

8:21 Yeah, that was super hard to say.

8:22 Yes.

8:23 It's hard to say.

8:24 Practice it.

8:27 It's the truth.

8:29 Everything else is nonsense.

8:31 No, I know, but it's— it was I— and I guess at that very

8:35 moment is when I realized how hard it is to get in that vulnerability.

8:43 ORNA: Yeah.

8:45 Exposing the truth.

8:48 Yeah, but exposing myself.

8:50 I guess—- So good.

8:51 Great.

8:52 Dru, great.

8:53 DRU: Yeah.

8:54 I don't want to feel like— like I guess like— like the little bitch who's like,

9:00 oh, you hurt my feelings.

9:01 The little bitch?

9:03 TASHIRA: You gotta stop.

9:04 He's— he's very much like that.

9:07 He's just like— like, that's why I tell him.

9:10 Like, I don't understand why he thinks that I'm tough,

9:12 but he's like tough tough sometimes.

9:16 Like, he just— it's hard for him to express that.

9:20 And then after he said that, the conversation totally mellowed out.

9:24 ORNA: Of course.

9:25 We were able to— I apologized to him, and I put the shirt on.

9:30 And I took a picture, and I actually liked the shirt on me.

9:33 So— You see all this.

9:35 You see this shit.

9:40 We still have not been intimate yet.

9:42 YAYA: Yeah.

9:43 We talked about that, right, and I said you know what.

9:45 There's too many people in our house just because,

9:47 like, her mother lives with us.

9:49 So this is what I'm going to do.

9:50 I'm going to have her brother's family, like,

9:55 take the kids overnight and I was like,

9:57 I'm gonna tell your mom go— To the casino.

9:59 With your sister to the casino, sleep over her house.

10:02 So that's just us.

10:04 Nice.

10:04 YAYA: And if it happens, it happens.

10:05 If it doesn't, then it doesn't.

10:07 But we have that liberty that if we want to be free in the house,

10:10 we're free in the house.

10:11 Nice.

10:12 So— So each of you need certain things in order to even enter— CYN: That space.

10:19 An erotic state of mind?

10:20 YAYA: Yes.

10:21 Yeah.

10:22 It has to be a controlled environment because it's just,

10:25 like, a lot of my control issues, because they're control,

10:31 like I like the control because I didn't have the control growing up.

10:35 Like, I grew up in chaos, so I need to control ABC.

10:41 You know, like, it has to be like this.

10:44 You know, like I had that insecurity, like, oh, any day now, like,

10:47 are we still gonna be living here or we not gonna be living here.

10:49 Are we gonna have.

10:50 For food, are we not gonna have enough for food.

10:53 Like, there was one time, like, we got evicted from the apartment.

10:58 ORNA: What was the eviction about?

11:00 What happened there?

11:01 I think my mom wasn't paying rent.

11:02 I don't even know.

11:03 Like, it just got to a point where we're like, oh, we're getting evicted again.

11:06 But what was going on with her?

11:10 She just didn't pay.

11:12 She didn't pay rent.

11:13 I don't know what she used the money for.

11:15 ORNA: So she just consistently doesn't show up as a mother, as a caretaker.

11:22 YAYA: Yeah.

11:23 I feel like she always has, like, these empty words, right.

11:27 Like, she'll say— when I was pregnant,

11:29 she was like, oh, when you're gonna give birth,

11:31 I'm gonna come— 'cause she was in Dominican Republic—

11:33 I'm gonna come and be here for the birth.

11:35 I said this is my due date.

11:36 If she comes, she comes.

11:38 She didn't come.

11:39 Right.

11:40 Oh, when you're gonna do the— when you guys

11:42 have a date for the baptism, right, let me know.

11:46 And I said, OK, here's the date.

11:49 I'm gonna make it.

11:50 She didn't come.

11:51 So— This is very upsetting stuff that you're describing.

12:02 It is.

12:03 And I know, like— as I talk about it, like, I feel the anger,

12:07 I feel the resentment and I— The anger and the long

12:10 standing kind of impasse and grudge that you've been living with.

12:14 Yeah.

12:15 That's an engine you need to connect to— Yeah.

12:17 Rather than shutting it down.

12:19 Mmm hmm.

12:20 Sounds like you have pretty good reasons to be angry.

12:24 I know.

12:28 It's all that affects us.

12:29 Mmm hmm.

12:30 Yeah.

12:31 We should think about how.

12:33 OK.

12:34 Because, Cyn, when you act like Yaya's mother

12:39 by not treating her well, she shuts down.

12:43 Yeah.

12:44 But it seems to me like you're kind of tired of that dynamic.

12:47 Yeah.

12:49 Yeah.

12:51 ORNA: Good.

12:53 I'm struggling a bit.

12:55 I've had really bad IBS the past couple of weeks.

12:58 I can't even get through my meals without running to the bathroom.

13:02 This month I match for residency,

13:04 so maybe it's, like, underlying anxiety about that.

13:06 And also, I mean, there's a lot of— I'm

13:09 still kind of confused about what's going on here.

13:12 Oh, do you want to elaborate more on that?

13:14 Sure.

13:15 Well, today she was feeling a little down.

13:17 I think she expected that I was going to hang out

13:19 with her, and so I think she needed, like— I don't know.

13:23 Sometimes I feel like I want my partner to want me,

13:25 but I don't want to feel like they need me.

13:27 Mmm hmm.

13:28 And one thing I don't like is what I call sexpectation.

13:32 Like, just because you're my partner, now I have access to your body.

13:36 And our sex life was already, like, struggling.

13:38 And so now I'm having sex with somebody else, and then it felt like, OK,

13:42 well, you're having sex with them so you need to be having sex with me.

13:45 And then I'm like, ugh.

13:47 If I'm not feeling it, I'm not feeling it.

13:49 And sometimes I felt like you would never hear me,

13:51 and so then now we're having, well, what is it.

13:54 OK, well, is it this?

13:55 Is it that?

13:55 And then, well, I don't know.

13:57 Maybe we're incompatible.

13:58 You're saying we're sexually incompatible, and then now it's like this big thing

14:02 that's just grown and grown and grown and grown.

14:05 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

14:06 I want to take a pause on the question that the two of you

14:10 are struggling with and ask a little bit about your not feeling well.

14:14 Sure.

14:16 OK, physically I don't know what's going on.

14:19 I'm getting very frustrated.

14:20 I've had four to five years of, like, almost debilitating GI issues.

14:24 Like, I could only eat eight ingredients for, like, a year and a half.

14:27 ORNA: What were the eight ingredients?

14:29 It was, like, white rice, plain chicken, corn flakes.

14:32 Everything else made me really sick.

14:33 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

14:34 And then— ORNA: By the way,

14:36 how were you as a kid in terms of your gut sensitivity?

14:39 I was fine, but I always had

14:42 a stomachache anytime— retrospectively anytime I was anxious.

14:45 What was happening at home?

14:47 So we were living in the West Bank for five years,

14:49 and the uprising started in 2000.

14:53 So they started bombing our cities, and, like, there were a couple of times,

14:57 like, bombs fell near our house and, like, everything's flying off the walls.

14:59 And a bomb fell on my siblings school, but it didn't detonate.

15:03 And after that, my parents were like we have to leave.

15:06 It's not worth our children's lives.

15:07 And so we left, like very quickly, barely said bye to anybody.

15:11 And then we came back here, and then 9/11 happened.

15:15 And all my classmates were calling me a terrorist,

15:17 making jokes about me bringing bombs to school.

15:19 They would ask me if I was related to Osama bin Laden,

15:22 and already I was struggling to make friends.

15:24 One long trauma.

15:25 Yeah.

15:26 And then my parents, it was just really tense, and we had strict rules.

15:30 Alarmist, yeah.

15:31 Especially me and my sister.

15:33 The women were treated very differently than the men.

15:35 And my dad was like the only time you will ever not

15:39 do what I say is if another man tells you what to do.

15:42 And I was like no thank you.

15:43 I'm gay.

15:44 [LAUGHING] CHRISTINE: No, thanks.

15:47 Anyways, moral of the story is— sorry.

15:50 I just want to note.

15:52 So— so you're obviously talking about, like, extreme trauma,

15:56 and your voice is kind of flying over it.

16:02 CHRISTINE: Mmm hmm.

16:03 I— I don't wanna feel what it would feel

16:07 like to actually slow down, and I— I mean,

16:11 I feel like that's probably why— I mean,

16:13 retrospectively, I think I was, like, very, very depressed.

16:16 Like, I couldn't even get up for school.

16:18 It wasn't doing anything that brought me joy anymore, and I was only nine.

16:22 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

16:26 And then that got worse because I feel like for immigrants,

16:32 the culture is frozen in time.

16:35 We couldn't even say the word gay.

16:37 I didn't even know I was gay,

16:39 but you could— I— if you saw pictures of me when I was little,

16:42 I was like— Adorable.

16:44 CHRISTINE: And when we moved here,

16:45 my parents were like we're going to paint your room pink,

16:48 and I'm, like, wearing a sideways hat— NADINE: Hot pink.

16:51 And, like, boys clothes.

16:51 I was like why?

16:53 I feel like it was like an attempt at conversion therapy, but I'm still gay.

16:56 She's a girl.

16:57 You like boys, you like boys.

16:59 I'm still gay.

17:00 Just, like, pink now.

17:02 Yeah.

17:02 CHRISTINE: My older brother was outed and that was a disaster,

17:06 and I was like I can't say anything.

17:08 So I stopped talking about my feelings,

17:12 and then I didn't cry for, like, maybe eight years.

17:15 I, like, wouldn't show any emotion.

17:17 So I think a lot of the homophobia in the household

17:21 was when a lot of my stomachaches were starting to begin,

17:25 but in my IBS, like, resolved almost completely right when I met Nadine.

17:32 But now it's coming back and I'm scared.

17:35 I don't want to do this again.

17:36 That was really traumatizing.

17:38 Like, every time we go out to eat, I'm, like,

17:41 so grateful just to be able to share a meal with someone.

17:44 I ate alone for so long by myself.

17:48 I learned my lesson.

17:49 Like, I get it.

17:51 I need to be, like, in touch with my body

17:52 and I'm trying to, but I don't know— well, I'm running out of tools.

17:57 It's OK.

17:59 I mean, it sounds to me that the way

18:02 you've contained all of these traumatic experiences

18:04 and your feelings about all these things you're describing

18:07 is by a mix of disassociating and thinking really hard.

18:14 You're using your intellect.

18:15 I'm trying to understand.

18:16 I don't know how to just feel it.

18:17 ORNA: Right, but understanding the mind as working as a container.

18:19 CHRISTINE: Yeah.

18:20 The intellectual mind is working as a container,

18:24 but it puts a lot of the work of metabolizing on your gut.

18:29 Yeah which can't keep up.

18:32 There's just too much.

18:33 CHRISTINE: And I can feel it.

18:34 I can't even finish my meals.

18:36 Anytime we talk about things that are stressful,

18:39 and I feel like in this relationship,

18:41 I've been given an ultimatum of either doing polyamory or just breaking up.

18:47 And so I'm very confused.

18:50 I don't know how to move forward anymore.

18:56 JOSH: I've processed so much in therapy,

18:59 and I work really hard to work on myself.

19:06 And I wanna share what I feel through these sessions

19:09 with her in the intimacy of just me and her.

19:11 Mmm hmm.

19:13 And she's— she doesn't tend to be— Natasha doesn't

19:15 tend to be too open to that kind of conversation.

19:18 What can you add?

19:20 NATASHA: I think that coming here, it allows me to open up, right.

19:24 And because— Because of some sense of safety.

19:26 Correct.

19:27 Mmm hmm.

19:28 NATASHA: And at home,

19:29 I get really stuck back into that routine where I'm just sort of, like,

19:32 avoiding the conversations or— ORNA: But what are you avoiding?

19:36 Just tension, arguing, like— Arguing?

19:39 Conflict?

19:39 Yeah.

19:40 Yes.

19:41 Conflict is, like, somewhere where I just have, like, a very,

19:43 like, it's not flight or fright or— what is it called?

19:46 Fight or flight.

19:47 Fight— fight or flight.

19:48 There we go.

19:49 I am a freeze.

19:50 ORNA: So where is this from, this fear of things becoming scary and— Life.

19:58 My very tumultuous past.

20:00 Which— tell me.

20:02 At a very young age, I got in a relationship with my daughter's father,

20:06 and that was toxic as fuck.

20:08 There was a lot of— Was it violent?

20:13 A little bit, yes.

20:14 Mmm hmm.

20:16 NATASHA: Then after that relationship dissolved,

20:18 I was sort of in, like, survival mode without a college education,

20:23 just trying to make money,

20:27 trying to forge a future for myself and, like, keep everybody alive and safe.

20:32 And, like, I've had so much conflict in those years

20:35 that now that I'm in sort of like a— a good space,

20:39 any conflict I treat like catastrophic conflict.

20:43 But it sounds like actually you're scared a lot of the time.

20:46 I'm totally scared.

20:49 ORNA: But what are you scared of in a conversation?

20:52 Well, I think— ORNA: Every conversation maybe carries the threat of a breakup.

20:56 Yes.

20:57 In my mind, yes.

20:59 You know, we're— we're engaged, and one day, I really hope we do get married.

21:03 But we really talk about marriage as a big if, not a when.

21:07 I want us to stay together, and I want this to be strong.

21:10 And I know he does, too, and so it's, like, scared of, like,

21:12 what is the other option, like, besides us making this work.

21:17 What is the other option?

21:19 For me, that's— that's terrifying.

21:24 ALEXES: I think one of his highest of his many skills is his writing.

21:30 And so I'm like we should write a book

21:35 together about trauma in our— in a relationship.

21:38 Oh.

21:39 And he got really excited, and, like, he whipped out a notebook and he's like,

21:43 all right, let's do, like, from which perspective, blah, blah, blah.

21:47 And then it turned, and I got really upset.

21:54 His ADHD came up, and I was like I

21:57 don't think that should be a whole, like, section.

21:59 I should— I think that's— and he's like, well this is, like, authentic to me.

22:03 And I was like, and I think you should be authentic to you,

22:06 but it shouldn't have its own section because this should be,

22:10 like, specifically centered around trauma.

22:12 But then all of a sudden, like, he wasn't interested anymore.

22:15 And I'm like because I disagreed with this one part, you know, like, probably,

22:21 like, 30 minutes passed or an hour passes, and then he said you're still mad.

22:26 And I was just like that's it.

22:28 I was just like I wanna burn the whole world to the ground.

22:31 Yeah.

22:33 He wasn't in the most control of his emotions,

22:36 and they were just kind of, you know,

22:39 whatever he was saying, he was just saying it.

22:42 There was no filter.

22:43 Well, disassociating.

22:45 What— During the conversation.

22:47 During that conversation, you dissociated?

22:50 ALEXES: Yeah.

22:51 Where did you go, and what were you saying?

22:54 I don't know, but— There was a part of the night that, like, I was just scared.

22:59 What happened?

23:00 ALEXES: I hear him coming down the stairs, so I run to the bathroom.

23:04 And he's, like, talking at me while I'm sitting— ORNA: Saying?

23:09 CASIMAR: Saying, like, I will never get it.

23:12 Like, I'm selfish.

23:14 This is why your sister doesn't tell you stuff.

23:16 This is why, like, your relationship with your mom is so messed up.

23:19 Like, the meanest things.

23:21 Mmm hmm.

23:23 Because at this point, I'm in the corner.

23:26 I'm sitting in the bathroom cowering, and I'm like, I just wanna be here.

23:33 Just— just walk away please.

23:36 So he must have my glasses somewhere an he broke my glasses and then leaves.

23:41 And I'm like, how much more understanding am I supposed to be?

23:48 When does this cross the line of, like, your being a survivor and this being

23:55 a traumatic episode and this just being abusive?

23:57 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

24:00 Can I ask you, Alexes, what— what do you remember of all of this?

24:12 I remember, like, when we were sitting on the table.

24:19 And I feel like I remember hail or, like, rain or something.

24:24 Yeah.

24:25 Mmm hmm.

24:27 But, for example, the scene in the bathroom?

24:32 Nothing?

24:36 Do you know who you're switching into?

24:40 ALEXES: I just say, like, my dissociative self.

24:43 Like, a part— like, towards the end of my abuse where I

24:51 would kind of stop my mom from the physical abuse— Mmm hmm.

24:59 It was probably just, like, one year, but that year was when I left the house.

25:03 ORNA: Yeah.

25:06 You know, in those moments, it's not just, like, him,

25:10 the adult, who's gone through it and processed some parts.

25:15 At this point now, it's, like, little Alexes who needs to speak.

25:21 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

25:22 So he's very vocal.

25:23 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

25:24 And if you say anything that is— that feels like opposition— ORNA: Mmm hmm.

25:31 He's going to speak.

25:34 So an important self in your development, someone that managed to change things.

25:44 Yeah, I mean— And pull you out of something.

25:47 The only time that I— yeah.

25:48 Yeah.

25:51 And do you have contact with that part of you?

25:56 No.

25:58 I don't mean, I don't— what do you mean by contact?

26:02 Contact like can you speak to that part of you,

26:05 make some agreements with that part?

26:07 ALEXES: I mean, I think that's— Can you— I mean,

26:11 I don't have the ability really, but I think I have successfully on, like,

26:16 one or two occasions kind of, like, tricked that part, you know.

26:22 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

26:23 Do you know if Casimar says anything in particular,

26:26 can that part calm down, or can he bring back other sides of you?

26:31 I mean, there was one time, like, you told me that I kept switching.

26:37 Yeah.

26:38 'Cause he's, like, anger, you know.

26:39 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

26:40 And then there's, like, the sad.

26:43 That's the little one.

26:44 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

26:45 Yeah, it's almost like stages of grief.

26:46 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

26:48 That is, like, it's just anger then it's just sadness then this, like,

26:51 burst of joy then back to sad.

26:53 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

26:56 One of the ways that trauma operates is that there is, like,

26:59 some kind of sense of danger that has to be put somewhere.

27:05 Right, and part of what happens between intimate

27:08 partners is your closest person becomes the dangerous object.

27:13 Sometimes that's why this relationship is also extra scary

27:16 because I don't wanna be that way first and foremost.

27:21 Sometimes my brain just goes to, like, pulling the rug.

27:24 Mmm hmm.

27:25 ALEXES: Like, let me get out.

27:26 ORNA: Mmm hmm.

27:27 Then you'll be safe, and you'll— no one will hurt you.

27:31 You know.

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