The 10,000 Steps Myth Is Destroying Your Health... Here's How Many Steps You Really Need

0:00 Do people need to get 10,000 steps a day?

0:02 I think that is um one of the one of the main reasons we wrote this book.

0:07 Um Isn't that right, Melissa?

0:10 It is.

0:10 It's one of the biggest myths we bust within the book.

0:13 The kind of um You know, it's interesting how even if you were to Google

0:19 how many steps you should take a day,

0:21 it will still come up you should be taking 10,000 steps a day.

0:24 And that was actually based off

0:26 of a um Japanese marketing campaign for a pedometer.

0:30 So, there is no science um that states

0:33 that you should be getting 10,000 steps a day.

0:36 So, it was really interesting as we were starting to research

0:38 this because I think that number can be very daunting for some people.

0:42 So, when we started looking at all of the research, we were like, "Oh,

0:45 there's some really fun things that can happen

0:48 at 5,000 steps to 8,000 steps." And that's when,

0:52 you know, the conversation really got started.

0:54 One of the things I really like to be asked about the 10,000

0:57 steps a day is how do you sort of like avoid that, right?

1:01 How do you find something that's more manageable for you,

1:04 more measurable for you, more meaningful for you?

1:07 And the conventional wisdom is that 10,000 step number.

1:10 You'll see it on places from the CDC's website to, you know,

1:14 other places we all really respect.

1:17 Um but it is a hangover, as Courtney said, from the 1964 Tokyo Olympics.

1:21 So, it's time for that myth to be broken.

1:24 I always thought it was just a good

1:25 gauge for people to hit because people are like,

1:27 "Well, how many steps should I get?" And they're like, "I don't know.

1:29 Like 10,000 was a good number." I mean,

1:31 I had heard through the grapevine that it was

1:33 kind of part of a man a marketing campaign.

1:35 I didn't know the specifics of it.

1:37 Um but with that said, let's get into walking a bit because I know that walking

1:41 has actually become really popular over the last few years.

1:45 Um how do you view walking as it relates to exercise?

1:49 When you I I really one of the things that I got really

1:52 excited about when writing this book

1:54 was viewing walking as a physiological necessity.

1:59 I think when we say exercise, it becomes optional.

2:04 I could exercise today or I could not.

2:07 And that's an optional thing.

2:09 But if we view walking as a physiological necessity,

2:13 like breathing and sleeping,

2:15 then it takes on this different connotation, I think.

2:18 And it becomes this, "Hey,

2:20 this is something that is a core biological input that us

2:26 as bipeds walking on two feet are is required for survival.

2:32 And it's that low-to-moderate intensity, that repetitive motion of walking,

2:39 that literally stimulates every single system in your body.

2:44 From your metabolic system to your lymphatic

2:46 system to your circulation to your musculoskeletal system, your nervous system.

2:51 And it's that um the it's each step that we take

2:56 that really contributes to us functioning uh optimally as human beings.

3:02 And that's where I want the conversation to switch is that it is a necessity.

3:07 It's a physiological necessity um more so than just exercise.

3:13 And it certainly is both, right?

3:15 But taking on the note of the importance of it.

3:19 I think one of the messages that we really want to share

3:22 when you differentiate walking and exercise are the mental health benefits,

3:25 the cognitive clarity benefits,

3:27 the mood-enhancing benefits of even taking a small walk.

3:30 And it doesn't require fancy equipment

3:33 or a specific court or, you know, special training.

3:36 And so, with that, I think it is important, as Courtney said,

3:39 to really relate it to something that your body

3:42 wants and needs that is readily available,

3:44 that we could all stand up and do right now if we were so inclined.

3:47 Uh versus how much more complicated it is to go play

3:50 pickleball or go for a trail run or get out your bike.

3:53 So, that's really a big part of our hope

3:56 with the story is being able to characterize it that way.

3:58 It's like I think it should be like it's the most easily accessible,

4:02 underutilized form of treatment that we should all be doing.

4:09 I mean, on every doctor's prescription pad, it there should be walking on there.

4:13 Yeah, and I think that as a trainer, you know,

4:15 I've been in the fitness space for over 15 years,

4:17 I've seen it I mean, just maybe not talked about in the right way.

4:21 And here's what here's what I mean.

4:23 So, you have the camp that doesn't exercise.

4:26 And they're not walking at all.

4:27 And then they're like, "Well, what is walking going to do?

4:29 Is it really going to do anything for me?

4:30 Is it actually going to burn calories?

4:32 Is it going to help me lose weight?" Then you have the camp of the superfit

4:35 of the people or the people who are regular gym-goers that are like, "Why walk?

4:39 It's not hard enough.

4:40 I should be doing this or that.

4:41 I should be running." And then it was also, you know,

4:44 used in a way to like do after a workout or in the morning and be like,

4:49 "Oh, I'm just burning pure fat." Which,

4:51 you know, that myth was also kind of debunked.

4:53 So, there's been so much, I think,

4:54 confusion around the benefits of walking and why it's actually um important.

5:00 You talked about like cognitively like like like dive into like the cognitive

5:06 benefits of walking and how it can help with things like mental health.

5:10 I know it helps with depression, anxiety, and also stress.

5:14 I think um you bring up so many good points there.

5:18 When you look at the spectrum of walkers, in in the book,

5:22 we have three different programs because that was

5:25 exactly the type of questions we were asking ourselves.

5:28 You know, in my clinic, we have um people that are in pain,

5:32 chronic pain, that are taking under 2,000 steps a day.

5:37 And so, for years.

5:40 And I see it all the time.

5:42 And so, from a when you're not moving and your step count is that low,

5:47 you not only have this musculoskeletal-driven

5:50 problem that pro that initiated things, but it is now escalated into a mental

5:57 challenge and emotional issues because when we're not moving,

6:01 everything just starts to stack.

6:03 So, with those patients, we're telling them,

6:07 "Hey, we need another 500 steps a day.

6:11 We're taking a micro walk.

6:13 And that's 5 minutes." So, I'll tell them I need a 5-minute walk in the morning

6:18 and I need a 5-minute walk in the evening.

6:20 And what that does to their mental health by getting outside,

6:25 building their confidence in movement,

6:28 building their, you know, their bodies are starting to feel things again.

6:34 And that is so important.

6:37 Um and I really think that when patients

6:39 are in pain for that long period of time, that's more of the issue.

6:43 It's no longer is this a foot pain problem.

6:47 It's this a bigger a bigger challenge, a bigger mental challenge.

6:52 So, the fact that this type of activity is so accessible to that population

7:00 and the impact that it can have on their mental health is so profound.

7:05 And on the other end of that spectrum,

7:08 when you look at your ultra-athletes that are grinding it out,

7:13 you know, I need to exercise 3 hours a day.

7:15 And, you know, both Melissa and I have been in that camp.

7:18 And when we started writing this book,

7:20 her and I did a lot more we took a lot of walks together.

7:24 Um It's nice.

7:26 It's nice to take, you know, some load off of your body.

7:31 It's nice to have these recovery You can look at it as a recovery walk.

7:35 Um so, it really was it really is a concept

7:39 that I think no matter where you sit on that spectrum,

7:41 whether you're taking 2,000 steps a day or 8,000 steps a day,

7:45 there is some benefit that lies there um all across the board,

7:49 physical, mental, and emotional.

7:50 I think one of the other elements that is kind

7:52 of fun to think about is the release of hormones with walking.

7:55 So, we get our happy hormones.

7:57 You know, you're looking at dopamine boost.

7:59 You're looking at a reduction of blood pressure.

8:01 We see um blood markers improve.

8:04 C-reactive proteins,

8:05 some of the inflammatory markers get better with chronic walking.

8:09 Um and improved blood flow to those itty-bitty

8:11 little capillaries that feed your brain.

8:13 So, there is a lot of like exciting, very nerdy biochem that happens.

8:18 Um and so, for those of you who are listening who are

8:20 interested in that, there's your there's your extra science for the day.

8:24 So, I've had Stan Efferding on the podcast

8:26 probably a thousand times at this point.

8:27 I don't know if you're familiar with his work.

8:29 Um but he um popularized the 10-minute walks.

8:34 Meaning, instead of having people get 30 minutes

8:36 of cardio in a certain amount of times per week,

8:39 just take three 10-minute walks throughout the day.

8:42 You know, maybe after breakfast, after lunch, after dinner,

8:44 or whatever, however you can fit it in.

8:45 Um do you believe that that that is effective?

8:49 And then the second part of that is one

8:51 of the reasons that people will say that is after a meal, if you go for a walk,

8:54 it helps with insulin resistance, it helps with digesting your food.

8:59 Um what are your thoughts on that?

9:01 I love that concept.

9:03 Every time I like I will do a post or we'll tell we're talking about something,

9:08 we'll always get comments of, "When am I supposed to fit this in?

9:12 When I'm supposed to be strength training and eating

9:15 100,000 g of protein a day and, you know, all of these things.

9:19 I'm a mom.

9:20 I'm you know, and I get all of that.

9:21 We get all of that.

9:23 So, that concept of finding time to squeeze in a 10-minute walk,

9:29 I think is beautiful.

9:30 Um you know, I was at the airport the other

9:33 day waiting for my flight and I was like, "This is perfect time.

9:37 I'm going to get 10 minutes in right now just walking

9:40 up and down the airport." Like there's if you pay attention,

9:43 you will find these little places throughout your day that you're like, "Oh,

9:49 this is a perfect time for that 10-minute

9:51 walk." And as far as the after-dinner walks,

9:54 I I've been doing a lot of research on that because it seems so

10:00 um like it just makes sense that after you would eat and you're like, "Oh,

10:05 do I really want to go for a 10-minute walk?" I will tell you

10:07 that my daughter and I have been doing

10:08 that um consistently lately and you significantly feel better.

10:15 Glucose uptake, insulin sensi- uh sensitivity,

10:19 lipid metabolism, your mitochondrial function,

10:21 all of those things after you're done eating

10:25 and you take that 10-minute walk are affected.

10:28 Um and it's a great thing to do to kind of dial things down also before

10:33 you go to sleep rather than just eating and then sitting and then going to bed.

10:37 I love that incremental commentary of the 3* 10 because

10:40 I think it becomes really approachable for people who are busy.

10:43 Often times it's hard to grab 30 minutes or 45 minutes if

10:47 you haven't quite figured out how to carve that into your day.

10:50 Um we've talked a lot about walk and talk meetings and definitely

10:53 something that if you're an individual who does Zoom calls or phone calls,

10:58 it's really awesome to give yourself permission to be able to be moving

11:03 during that time if you're not talking about something confidential or you know,

11:07 appropriate and all those ways.

11:09 Um and we're also starting to see a little bit

11:10 of a shift in the corporate environment where people are allowing co-workers

11:15 to do a walk and talk um where you can actually book

11:18 that in someone's calendar instead of sitting in front of your computer.

11:21 So I think the 3* 10 is really valuable.

11:24 It's bite-size, it's easy to remember.

11:26 Um it does help us get toward those step counts

11:29 that we're really looking for to see the health benefits.

11:32 So how do you convince someone who hasn't moved in years?

11:35 Like how do you get them off the couch?

11:37 Like where do they start?

11:38 Baby steps, small small habits.

11:41 Um that's why that that power is in the micro walk.

11:46 Because I have so many patients who truly

11:49 are afraid to put their foot on the ground.

11:51 And the other thing that um you'll hear as well,

11:53 if I get so far away from my house and I start to have pain,

11:56 then how do I how am I going to get home?

11:59 Um so those small increments can be extremely beneficial.

12:05 Um 5 minutes is about 500 steps.

12:08 So it's a it's a safe um range for most people.

12:13 Even my patients in the most pain, uh that has been a very safe number for them

12:18 to hit and it's really exciting when you know,

12:22 a couple weeks goes by and it's empowering to them, Doug, you know?

12:27 It's they say 5 minutes and they're like, "Oh,

12:29 I think I could go a little bit further." And then you're

12:31 putting that on them and they get inspired to want to do more.

12:36 And I think that's that's I think where we win

12:39 is where we inspire and empower people rather than saying,

12:42 "You need to go out there and do 20 minutes

12:44 right now." It's that conversation of the intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.

12:48 And I think that, you know, Courtney and I are both clinicians,

12:51 but we really come from an educational background.

12:53 We met both working for an educational company.

12:56 And so being able to have heart-to-heart conversations,

12:59 creating that alliance with the patients,

13:01 with someone we're consulting with, with a friend or family member and just,

13:04 you know, helping them understand they're investing in themselves.

13:07 And that does take time in some cases.

13:09 Absolutely.

13:10 Some people are not quite ready to change.

13:12 They're questioning like, "Can I do this?

13:14 Do I have the gear?

13:15 Am I going to get hurt?" But as we

13:17 sort of progress them through those decision-making

13:20 phases and get them just inching them

13:22 closer to adopting it for their own benefit,

13:25 that intrinsic motivation I think is really where we all can win.

13:28 But as far as fat loss,

13:29 cuz I know that's a huge goal of a lot of people that want to exercise.

13:34 Um you've seen that it's pretty clear that, you know,

13:38 walking getting in the right amount of steps

13:40 for your fitness level definitely can help with fat loss.

13:43 Yeah, I mean, this is a a very

13:44 good conversation to have about stacking behaviors.

13:47 I love the conversation of stacking behaviors.

13:50 You cannot think that one thing that you're going

13:52 to do is going to be the you know, this is the this is the thing.

13:57 It's when you're walking more and you're feeling better and then you're

14:01 that there here's that um kind of trilogy of breathing and sleeping.

14:06 Right?

14:07 Your respiration rate might improve.

14:08 Now you're sleeping better.

14:10 Now you're eating better and then you get to start to stack

14:13 these behaviors and that's when I think

14:15 your body composition really starts to change.

14:18 And if fat loss is one of your goals, then those things start to happen.

14:22 And we do know that you can you can do the wrong things, right?

14:26 So there is definitely, as you mentioned, Doug,

14:27 some debate about is zone two really where we're going to burn the most fat?

14:31 And are we still burning carbs?

14:32 And it depends on what's in your bloodstream and your belly.

14:34 And you can really go down that exercise physiology rabbit hole.

14:38 But I think what we do know is if

14:40 you're walking greater than 70% of your heart rate max,

14:43 you're, you know, you're in that cardiovascular training system, right?

14:46 And you're going to be burning whatever's in the bloodstream,

14:48 which is generally carbohydrate.

14:50 So it is again another educational pillar

14:53 to talk to people about what's the sweet spot?

14:56 What's the sweet spot for their heart rate?

14:57 What's their sweet spot for their RPE or how they feel when they're exercising?

15:02 And then what's the ideal steps per minute cadence?

15:05 Because that has all sorts of implications

15:07 as we really start defining what's good, better, best, right?

15:12 Good is participation, better is being a little bit more specific,

15:15 and best is really adopting this as something that's part of your lifestyle.

15:19 You know, I I I refer back to this conversation

15:21 I had with uh Kelly and Starrett and his wife.

15:23 I don't know if you're familiar with with Starrett Work,

15:25 but he he said he made this point that was amazing.

15:28 He said, "We've done a really good job at getting the fit people fitter

15:33 and a really horrible job at getting

15:36 at helping the general population." And it's

15:37 really sat with me um just as somebody who's been in the field

15:40 for a while and I have conversations like

15:42 this like we have really lost the plot, I think, with health and fitness.

15:46 And we've we've we've we've lost the idea

15:48 of simplicity and over-indexing in the wrong

15:51 things and stepping over dollars to pick up pennies and all the things.

15:55 Um and I and I do think that like walking has

15:58 become a trend because people are like let's get back to basics.

16:02 Like we know that this works.

16:03 We know there's a lot of benefit to it.

16:05 I want to talk about like like strengthening your feet.

16:09 Like arch support, ankle mobility, all that stuff.

16:12 Like how does walking improve that?

16:15 You're talking my language now.

16:17 Um our foot has been beautifully designed to handle

16:24 multiple times our body weight when we walk.

16:28 So when we're walking, for example,

16:29 there's parts of the foot that can take on two to three times our body weight.

16:34 We have four layers of intrinsic muscles in the foot.

16:39 Many joints.

16:41 The foot's constantly adapting to the terrain

16:43 to our terrain and how we're moving.

16:46 So when people will say to me,

16:48 "The foot needs arch support." Uh the foot doesn't need arch support.

16:54 What needs arch support is a foot that has been weakened over time,

17:00 placed in footwear that doesn't respect the anatomy of the foot.

17:05 Then you have the conversation that a foot needs arch support.

17:09 But our anatomy is very very well equipped to handle

17:13 the amounts of loads that are carried when we're walking.

17:16 And when you are walking and your foot can feel the ground,

17:21 you're strengthening your foot.

17:24 I mean, I think every exercise is a foot

17:26 exercise when your foot can actually feel the ground.

17:29 And the problem is that most of us don't let our feet feel the ground.

17:33 And my hot take on that is most of us don't let our feet feel the ground

17:37 because we are in modern shoes that are

17:38 engineered in ways that are not necessarily the healthiest.

17:42 A great [snorts] example is shoes that have narrow toe boxes.

17:45 So if your shoe is not shaped like your foot

17:49 with the widest part of the shoe being your toes,

17:52 uh that shoe is not, as Courtney said, respecting your foot's natural anatomy.

17:56 The second beef I have with shoes is they're excessively cushioned these days.

18:00 And that means, Courtney has taught me this over

18:03 the last couple years of diving deep into foot function anatomy,

18:07 there's hundreds of thousands of receptors at the bottom

18:09 of your foot and they are essentially standing on a big pillow,

18:12 a big couch cushion.

18:13 And so those receptors are not getting input from the surfaces that you're

18:17 walking on, from feeling the difference

18:19 between grass and sand or uneven surface.

18:22 And so that lack of connection of bottom

18:25 of the foot back to your brain is another factor

18:28 in this battle that we're having right now

18:30 with weak feet that are being affected by modern footwear.

18:34 So I just had my wife grab my shoes that I currently am working out in.

18:37 How do you rate these Brooks Launches?

18:39 Are they the worst?

18:41 They were I got them on sale at DSW.

18:44 I will wear them until they die.

18:47 I'm going to we're going to send you some shoes.

18:50 Can you send me some shoes?

18:50 I mean, hey, I'm I love free stuff.

18:52 I love I love free stuff.

18:53 So whatever you want to send me.

18:54 This is a one of the things that I think

18:57 is important to go through is having um a shoe spectrum.

19:02 You know, there is a a different tool for each thing that we do.

19:08 You know?

19:08 So for example, if that's your strength training shoe,

19:14 we're going to have a long conversation.

19:16 It's my everything shoe.

19:17 I've just never had an issue I've always I

19:19 guess I've just never had an issue with shoes.

19:21 But I'm I'm open to suggestions.

19:24 Well, and this is this is where I think

19:25 the conversation get go gets even more global, right?

19:29 Is that those are the things that we will always hear.

19:32 I don't have problems with my feet.

19:34 So why would I do this?

19:36 We need to start looking at this from a proactive

19:38 approach rather than a reactive approach.

19:41 So I'm going to kind of go on some little bit of a tangent here.

19:45 As we age, we know that sarcopenia is a factor.

19:49 We lose muscle mass.

19:50 That we know that.

19:51 That also happens in our feet.

19:53 We also lose sensitivity to the receptors in our feet as we age.

19:57 So, we start to lack what we can feel,

20:00 and we start to lose the ability to really hold ourselves up.

20:05 We lose strength in our feet.

20:08 So, when people say to me,

20:10 "I don't really have any foot problems." I always say to them,

20:15 "Well, I don't want you to have any foot problems as you age,

20:18 either." Which means you're going to have to take that shoe off,

20:21 and we're going to have to get your foot strong.

20:23 Because one of the predictors, a very big predictor of falls as we age,

20:29 is a weakness in toe strength.

20:32 So, when I have these conversations with younger people,

20:35 one of the very easy interventions is getting in the gym.

20:38 It's strength training.

20:40 Because when you're lifting heavy loads,

20:43 if I was going to squat heavy or deadlift heavy, this is not a trick question.

20:49 I want my foot to be wide.

20:52 I want it to be stable on the ground so that I

20:55 can press through my foot when I go to lift heavy.

21:00 If my foot is on a cushion, and I lose sensory acuity,

21:05 and I lose sensory perception from the ground,

21:08 do you think that's going to change the information to my knee,

21:11 to my hip, to my low back?

21:13 The answer to that question is yes.

21:16 So, for someone who is kind of new to different footwear,

21:21 or has only worn a Brooks,

21:25 that would be a good kind of opportunity for you to say, "You know what?

21:29 I'm going to try this thing out.

21:30 I'm going to get in the gym,

21:31 and I'm going to, you know, if you're allowed, take your shoes off,

21:35 or wear a shoe that respects the anatomy of the foot,

21:39 has a thin and flexible sole so that you can feel the ground.

21:43 And I will tell you, people are often very,

21:46 very surprised at how much stronger and how much more

21:51 stable they feel because they're basically not standing on sand anymore.

21:58 Let me jump in really quick, cuz I mean, I haven't just worn Brooks.

22:03 I mean, I've worn every shoe from like, you know,

22:05 the five the five toe Vibram shoe craze back

22:09 in the day to uh Chuck Taylors to um Nikes,

22:15 Nike Frees when they were big and popular.

22:17 I think they're still pretty popular, too.

22:19 Um uh On Cloud to ASICS to Hoka, I mean, Reebok, Adidas.

22:27 Like, I've worn probably every brand of of shoe possible.

22:31 I hear one consistent theme from those.

22:34 Cushion, cushion, cushion, cushion, except for the Nike Free.

22:37 Narrow toe box across all of those ones you mentioned for the most part.

22:42 And so, I think we really don't want

22:44 to pick up a screwdriver when you need a hammer.

22:46 And so, if you are in the gym lifting,

22:48 the shoe you go running in is not a lifting shoe.

22:51 Just like the shoe you would play pickleball in is not a trail running shoe.

22:55 And so, if individuals have the means, it's important to have a series of shoes

23:00 that they can apply to the correct modality of exercise.

23:04 What Courtney was talking about is a Brooks shoe

23:07 is something we would call like a traditional style shoe.

23:09 It's got that high stack.

23:11 It's got, you know, elevated heel compared to the toe.

23:14 Narrow toe box, lots of cushion.

23:16 The next progression of shoe category is called a functional shoe.

23:21 And a functional shoe has some qualities such as a wide toe box,

23:25 less of that heel-to-toe differential,

23:28 so it's getting closer to a more even heel-to-toe plane,

23:32 and it's going to have less cushion.

23:34 And then the third category is a minimal shoe.

23:36 And actually, the Vibram FiveFingers that you mentioned is sort of the original,

23:40 and the Nike Free is somewhat somewhat in that category.

23:43 Um except it doesn't have a wide toe box.

23:45 But that's where we get to a shoe that is sort of that barefoot feel, right?

23:49 You're you're able to feel the ground.

23:50 It is not cushioned.

23:51 It's the one where when individuals have

23:53 deconditioned feet or lack of range of motion,

23:55 they're like, "These are I can't wear these.

23:56 My feet get sore." But it's really just a conversation of, you know,

24:01 you wouldn't take someone in the gym and have

24:02 them snatch a barbell overhead the first day.

24:04 You have to earn the right to snatch a barbell.

24:07 And we tend to apply that principle when we talk about footwear.

24:10 You sort of have to earn the right to progress

24:12 from a traditional to a functional to a minimal shoe.

24:15 And that's where people tend to get themselves

24:17 in trouble because not everybody can snatch a barbell overhead,

24:20 but people can certainly buy a pair of minimal shoes and go for it,

24:23 and that's where problems can arise.

24:25 Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I think people will

24:27 hear conversations like this, or they'll

24:30 see an ad from their favorite podcaster,

24:32 or they'll get like targeted on social media,

24:35 and they're like, "Oh my gosh, like,

24:36 I'm going to go buy like X brand shoe." And they have no ankle mobility,

24:40 they have no stability in their feet.

24:42 Um they're super super tight, and they wonder why they get low back pain

24:46 like within like a few weeks of wearing them.

24:47 And it's because everything else is just so jacked up.

24:50 And I want to get into like foot health specifically.

24:52 But first, I want to close the loop on this shoe conversation.

24:56 So, like, if you were to send me a pair of shoes, like,

24:58 what what what types of shoes are your favorites for let's

25:02 go the route of somebody like me who's super active.

25:05 I'm working out for a long time.

25:07 I mean, I don't think I would get hurt from a new pair of shoes.

25:10 What type of shoe should I be wearing?

25:11 And then for the person who maybe isn't as active,

25:15 but they want to slowly improve their foot health with their shoe,

25:18 where do they start?

25:19 Yeah, if there's if we have two different or excuse me,

25:22 three different kind of categories of footwear.

25:24 The traditional footwear is where most people are.

25:28 This is going to be the, you know, the Brooks, that all those categories there.

25:32 The first step is getting them into a functional shoe.

25:37 So, just like Melissa was saying, wide toe box, lower heel-to-toe drop.

25:41 Um and that's going to be brands like Altra Running, Topo Athletic.

25:47 Notice, there's not too many um brands out there currently

25:51 that live in this category because most shoes are either maximal, right?

25:56 So, maximal cushion with a lot going on, or they're minimal.

25:59 So, that kind of middle-of-the-road category, I think, is very important.

26:02 We put a lot of our patients in Altra

26:05 Running shoes because the kind of non-negotiable for me,

26:09 the number one thing we start with is the wide toe box.

26:13 I have to have the toe splay.

26:16 Um most foot injuries occur in the forefoot.

26:20 So, when you think of um bunions,

26:23 neuromas, most people have pain in the forefoot.

26:26 So, we want to make sure that that foot is able to splay,

26:31 and that's typically an easy transition.

26:33 Most people when they put their foot into a shoe where their toes can actually,

26:37 you know, expand, they're like,

26:38 "Wow, I didn't know that's what that was supposed to feel like." So,

26:43 we'll start them there with that lower drop.

26:47 As they're working on their foot health, and that includes toe strength and foot

26:54 strength and toe mobility and ankle mobility,

26:57 then we can trans transition them into more minimal footwear.

27:01 And that what puts you into a minimal category is the thin and flexible sole.

27:07 And that's typically the hardest component

27:11 of the shoe for people to really take to.

27:15 Because when you're walking around on a shoe that has a thin and flexible sole,

27:22 I will be the first to tell you, that comfort conversation, it's harder.

27:27 It It's There's more loads going through your foot

27:30 and through your ankle when you're wearing minimal footwear.

27:32 But here's the good news.

27:33 That's the That's the scenario.

27:36 That's the environment where your foot and ankle get stronger.

27:40 So, because you are active, I would probably, you know,

27:43 I usually tell my patients, "You're going to need a couple pairs of shoes.

27:47 You're probably going to get a functional footwear recommendation from me,

27:51 probably with an Altra.

27:53 We're going to put you in a wide toe box and a lower drop than the Brooks.

27:56 But I'm also going to probably get tell you,

27:59 'Let's go get you in a minimal shoe.

28:02 Start with like 5 to 10 minutes a day.

28:04 This is like a Vivo barefoot, um a zero.

28:08 See how you feel.

28:10 Walk around, see how you feel that night,

28:12 and then that transition happens slowly.

28:15 You know, this conversation is not new.

28:17 I think what happened when this was all, you know,

28:20 I think it was 2007 when this conversation were like,

28:23 "Oh, let's get back to minimal footwear." People

28:27 got very excited about it because it made sense.

28:29 So, they went zero to 100.

28:31 And then people got hurt.

28:33 Well, then you had people like in the gym and with in bare feet, right?

28:37 And then you had them in like the the five toe shoes,

28:41 and I can in my observation, just kind of even as somebody who wore those shoes,

28:45 I wore them for like 2 weeks, and I was like,

28:46 "Okay, like, these are dumb." And that was just my opinion.

28:50 I I couldn't get my cuz I saw I I remember

28:53 like going in the gym and seeing other people wearing them,

28:55 and I was like, "Is that what I look like?

28:56 Holy crap, like, and no no disrespect, I just was like,

29:01 I'm I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that way." And like,

29:04 how can we get better at, you know,

29:06 not being the quote-unquote person that walks in the gym barefoot because

29:09 you want your feet to touch the ground while you're deadlifting, right?

29:11 Cuz you know that that's kind of like, you know,

29:14 people are going to look at you a certain way.

29:15 And then also, you know, how can we wear shoes that are minimal,

29:20 but you're not like afraid to go out with them, either.

29:23 You know what I mean?

29:24 It's a It's our biggest battle.

29:26 I mean, I have a 14-year-old, and, you know, I say this all the time.

29:29 She's like, "Mom, you make me wear these platypus shoes." And I'm like, "Yeah,

29:32 I I Anna." It's our biggest battle is that the industry has really

29:38 trained our minds to think that fashionable

29:41 footwear is what we should be wearing.

29:44 And what's really interesting is a lot of the footwear companies out

29:47 there don't have good knowledge of the actual anatomy of the foot.

29:52 So, their creations are based on fashion, not based on anatomy.

29:56 And that's why I think a really important concept with this book

30:00 because I will tell you if I think that if we, especially with our kids,

30:04 started wearing footwear that respected the anatomy of the foot,

30:09 I can guarantee you I'd be a lot less busy in my practice.

30:12 I like the Vivo barefoot, so I I've tried them on.

30:15 I've seen them.

30:15 They're They don't have the at least the have individual toes, right?

30:19 That's what I think was um weird for me with the Threw you off a little bit?

30:25 [laughter] Well, yeah.

30:26 I mean, cuz I think that's part of it, too.

30:27 I think, you know, when people are going to the gym or they're going for a walk,

30:29 they're not just doing that.

30:30 They're like running errands, they're going to the grocery store,

30:33 they're meeting friends, like they're doing all these this stuff.

30:35 And I just think that's like um you know,

30:37 super important for them to pay attention to that as well.

30:41 I mean, when you think about I always think about this with the hands, too.

30:44 Like if you were to walk around with mittens on your hands all the time,

30:48 your fine motor skills are altered, right?

30:51 There's a time when we would need gloves, right?

30:53 It's a very similar concept at the foot.

30:55 You know, you want to be able to have toe dexterity.

30:58 You want to be able to move your toes.

31:00 That's very, very important.

31:01 And you know, I think the I love the Vivo barefoot, too.

31:06 That Motus strength is a great strength training shoe.

31:10 Um that's one of the shoes I love wearing in the gym.

31:13 So, that's a say more fashionable strength training

31:17 shoe if you're not into the uh five fingers.

31:20 I think it's important to note, too, that being able to train your feet

31:24 is actually going to have outcome measurable outcomes.

31:28 So, Dr.

31:28 Sarah Ridge is a researcher that we really respect,

31:30 and she has studied the intrinsic muscles in the foot,

31:33 which are the little bitty muscles that are in between the long bones.

31:36 And her work is a lot about wearing minimalistic shoes,

31:40 and then seeing how that affects

31:42 the actual muscle cross-sectional area and muscle performance.

31:46 And spoiler alert, the more minimal your shoe, the more your foot is working,

31:50 the bigger the muscles get, the stronger the muscles get.

31:53 And so, it's really important for people to understand

31:56 that an over-engineered shoe is doing the work for you.

32:01 And we really love the phrase, "There's no free lunch." So,

32:05 you're not going to get stronger bench pressing if you don't practice.

32:09 Your feet are not going to get stronger if they are constantly

32:12 in a shoe that is doing the work for you and not

32:15 allowing you to actually have to build the endurance and the strength

32:20 and power for those muscles to perform at their optimal uh capacity.

32:25 And so, I think that's another part that is really important,

32:29 especially with, you know, more of a fitness and endurance conversation.

32:33 Those muscles need trained just like every other muscle in our body.

32:36 And a lot of times our our footwear is not helping that part of the puzzle.

32:41 I mean, if you look at a lot of the even professional athletes,

32:45 these guys are getting bigger and stronger.

32:48 And you know, as my good friend Jay Dicharry says,

32:51 they're building these jet engines of bodies on paper airplanes of feet.

32:57 If you want to if we switch gears and talk about athletes in the athlete world,

33:02 if you want to run faster and be able to produce power,

33:06 a lot of that power comes from below the knee.

33:10 So, you have to be able to propel forward.

33:12 And if you just talk about the power concept,

33:15 I think we always think power with athletes.

33:18 Let me tell you, getting up and out of a chair,

33:21 being able to walk at a cadence, a fast clipped cadence, is power.

33:26 Those are power moves that we have to maintain as we age.

33:31 And that a lot of that power comes from the foot and ankle.

33:35 So, here's that conversation again about being proactive rather than reactive.

33:39 I think when we're kind of younger, we don't think about, you know,

33:43 I always say the the longest line in the gym

33:45 should be at the seated calf raise machine, and nobody's ever on it, you know?

33:49 Um it's Those are the things we need to be paying

33:53 attention to because the stronger you are from the ground up,

33:56 you are going to be stronger everywhere else.

33:59 Talk about the importance of having strong feet.

34:02 Cuz I know that that can be I've just seen like a telltale

34:05 sign that something else is off if like your feet are somehow warning you.

34:10 So, in our office, one of my favorite things to do is to test toe strength.

34:16 Um we have a dynamometer, and you can actually do this at home.

34:20 You wouldn't get a number, but you should be able to feel it.

34:23 Um you would put this kind of card underneath your big toe.

34:28 And you press your big toe down,

34:30 and then someone would try to pull the card out.

34:32 You try to prevent them from doing so.

34:34 In my office, we can get a number on that.

34:37 Um at a minimum, I like to see about 10% of body weight.

34:44 So, you should be able to produce 10% of your body weight out of your big toe.

34:48 Um out of your lesser toes, those numbers are about 7 to 8%.

34:53 Um if you cannot produce strength and power out of your feet,

35:00 you just start picking a diagnosis.

35:03 So, for example, when I'm doing the lesser toes,

35:07 when I'm testing the the strength of flexor digitorum brevis,

35:10 that's the muscle that runs parallel to the plantar fascia.

35:15 Some people cannot even engage their toes there.

35:20 Tissues are you know, I always say this, the flexor digitorum

35:24 brevis and the plantar fascia are best friends.

35:25 They share loads.

35:27 So, when muscles are weak,

35:28 you're going to have this load be transferred to other places.

35:32 So, you just start picking diagnoses,

35:34 whether that's in the foot or the calf or up the kinetic chain.

35:39 So, toe strength, I think,

35:41 is extremely important um for not only reduction of pain,

35:47 if you will, but also from a longevity perspective.

35:50 Um the other very easy assessment that we'll do is the single leg calf raise.

35:56 Um and there's no cheating.

35:58 No one's allowed to cheat doing a single leg calf raise,

36:01 and everybody wants to do it.

36:02 So, they'll want to curl their toes.

36:05 They'll want to I'll have them put their hands on the wall,

36:07 they'll want to like drive into the wall.

36:09 They'll try to bend their knee.

36:12 I want to see true power out of the lower leg.

36:14 Your plantar flexors are the powerhouse of your lower leg.

36:17 This is gastroc-soleus talk.

36:20 And each decade of life, you should be able to hit a certain number.

36:26 Okay, so if you were in your 30s,

36:29 for example, we want to see that number around 30.

36:33 Late 20s, late 20s, early 30s.

36:37 Okay?

36:38 I can't I can't tell you the majority of my patients are not able to do this.

36:42 This is walking.

36:45 This is propulsion.

36:48 So, you I hear these stories all the time, "Hey, my hip flexor,

36:52 you know, every time I walk, my hip flexor hurts." That shouldn't happen.

36:56 We should be able to walk long distances because we're pushing through our foot.

37:00 So, it has um a sequela when your foot

37:04 and ankle are weak up that kinetic chain as well.

37:07 What is it about the feet that like throw off everything else?

37:11 Is it because there's lack of blood flow?

37:13 Like is it because something to do with muscles like you've talked about,

37:18 like strength in the feet?

37:19 Like like why is it such a a long-term issue?

37:24 Like what is it like that's happening in the foot itself?

37:27 I mean, one out of three people over the age of 45 have foot pain.

37:36 Next to low back pain,

37:37 it is one of those diagnoses that's we need to pay attention to.

37:41 And I think the reason why people don't pay attention

37:43 to it is we don't think about it until it hurts.

37:47 And then once our foot hurts, let me tell you,

37:50 you will think about it with every single step that you take.

37:54 Because there really is, even if I had low back pain,

37:58 and this is a a plug for walking.

38:00 One of the best treatments for low back pain is to walk fast.

38:07 Go outside.

38:08 Go for a walk.

38:09 Get your cadence up.

38:11 That's a wonderful treatment for low back pain.

38:14 Another great treatment for knee pain is to walk backwards.

38:19 So, you're engaging your quadriceps.

38:20 There's a lot of research on patients

38:22 with osteoarthritis and walking backwards for knee pain.

38:25 Now, if your foot hurts, you're not doing either of those things.

38:30 And that's when you start to see the movement start to decrease and decrease.

38:35 And so, the solution to that has been we're going to we're

38:41 going to put you in this footwear that's even more cushy,

38:45 is going to have a toe spring on it

38:48 that's going to rocker you through your foot.

38:51 And a patient's going to put that on, and they're going to say,

38:54 um "This feels awesome.

38:57 I'm going to wear this all the time." And then here's the conversation,

39:00 Doug, of nobody gets a free lunch.

39:02 You can wear that shoe, but you better be aware that the intrinsic

39:07 muscles of your foot will not be getting stronger.

39:09 So, you know, I'm not saying there there is not a time

39:13 and a place for that type of footwear because there certainly is.

39:16 But we have to be having the and conversation.

39:19 You're going to wear this footwear when your foot hurts,

39:21 and you're going to be doing these exercises so

39:24 that we can be build a resilient body so

39:26 that we can start to get you into footwear where

39:29 you can actually be in an environment to get stronger.

39:32 And that is one of the elements that we included in the book.

39:35 So, there's an entire section where people

39:37 are able to self-assess their foot strength,

39:40 their foot mobility, and their awareness, and neurologic capabilities.

39:44 And then we essentially categorize their performance on those tests.

39:47 They can assess themselves, and we have included a remediation plan.

39:52 They're called movement snacks.

39:54 They're all these little fun bite-size things that you

39:56 can do at your office, or at the gym, or wherever you are,

39:59 that will help take you in the right direction, as Courtney's saying.

40:02 Because we know that when a foot is lacking mobility,

40:06 and a foot is lacking strength,

40:08 it's, you know, a down downward spiral unless we are proactive about it.

40:13 And so, our goal was really to share the information that we

40:17 share day in and day out in the clinic to a wider audience.

40:20 So, people can help themselves a little bit.

40:23 And then, as far as like what people can do, um I know you've put together like

40:28 some plans and some protocols throughout the book.

40:31 Let's kind of bring this together as best as possible.

40:35 Um let's start with the feet.

40:36 Like, if you were to put together like a routine for the feet,

40:40 like where would you start?

40:43 So, first thing I tell everybody, take your shoes off.

40:47 Put your foot on the ground,

40:49 and feel what it feels like to have your foot on the ground.

40:52 You should feel the big toe, the little toe, and the heel.

40:58 So, that just being able to have that foot on the ground is step one.

41:03 Then we'll have them do things like toe dexterity drills.

41:06 I call them foot awareness.

41:08 So, this is like our phase one.

41:10 Being able to lift just your big toe.

41:12 Can you just lift your right big toe?

41:15 Can you lift your four toes?

41:17 Um the other one that I'm pretty um adamant about

41:21 that people can do is can they lift all of their toes, and can they spread them?

41:26 So, if you were uh at home right now,

41:28 you should be able to lift all of your toes,

41:30 spread your toes, and see daylight between each digit, not just one.

41:35 Okay?

41:35 There's a a reason why we want to have that splay in between each of those toes.

41:41 So, those are things that are just waking up our brain.

41:45 If we were to progress those things,

41:47 it's things like, you know, banded toe strength, right?

41:51 Being able to walk on your toes, being able to do calf raises.

41:56 So, it would progress.

41:57 But, that kind of toe dexterity, foot awareness is a very good place to start.

42:02 I'll have people walk barefoot for 5 minutes at home.

42:06 Um and just to get a just to get their uh I always come

42:10 when I whenever I'm in my office and I see people that have baby feet,

42:13 you know, like there's like not one callus on their feet,

42:16 I'm like, we got some work to do.

42:18 Let's get that foot on the ground, you know?

42:20 But, they're it's I have patients where they'll get out of bed,

42:23 and they'll put their foot into a slipper the second they get up in the morning.

42:27 So, we want to get we want to get a little more resilience from the ground up.

42:32 And I think you hit really well on the awareness side of that, Courtney,

42:35 where it's those exercises are all for that foot to brain connection,

42:39 improving the awareness of the tripod,

42:42 just helping people understand what it should feel

42:44 like of having your foot touch the floor.

42:47 And then, I think the next progression, as she said,

42:49 is that banded exercise and other strength work that can

42:51 be so valuable when people do have those deconditioned feet.

42:55 And if you're at home and you're listening, and you take your shoes off,

42:58 and your feet don't have robust muscle, and you've got, you know, corns,

43:03 and calluses, and bunions, and bumps, and humps,

43:06 and things like that, maybe you've come from an industry

43:08 where you've been required to wear a uniformed shoe.

43:12 We interviewed a flight attendant for a major airline in our book, and wow,

43:15 she had a lot to tell us about the shoe uniform

43:18 and the physical effects on on those who work in the airplanes.

43:22 So, I think it's really important to expand,

43:25 you know, those conversations of the intrinsics and the neurology.

43:30 You know, as Courtney was talking about

43:32 our ability to improve that awareness in the foot,

43:35 and then that next step being working on the strength side of it.

43:39 I want to get into some like common exercises that people do for the feet.

43:44 Um a cross ball, you've seen people roll

43:46 their feet out on the on the cross ball consistently.

43:50 Um obviously calf raises, seated calf raises, calf raises on a leg press.

43:55 Um I mean, I would say majority of the people do

43:58 them to strengthen their calves and to build their calf muscles.

44:01 Um talk about why that these are also important exercises for the feet.

44:07 Uh I love this conversation.

44:10 When you think about what we can do to strength train our bodies,

44:15 I want everybody to think about doing those same exact things to your feet.

44:20 The foot can handle massive amounts of loads.

44:23 So, when you're doing a single seated calf raise,

44:28 um there's research um when you look at what that what that muscle,

44:34 what the soleus, what the the plantar flexors are able to produce,

44:39 um Kem Mallearis' research looked at 1.5 times your body So,

44:43 1.5 times your body weight, six times,

44:47 on a seated single leg calf raise machine.

44:51 Now, I don't know if you've ever done that, Doug,

44:54 but I would challenge you to um see what kind of weight you can put up,

45:00 because that is not easy to do.

45:02 So, you're saying like if I weigh let's just use like 180 as an easy reference.

45:07 If you weigh 180, I should be able to single leg calf raise 270 lb six times?

45:14 Dang.

45:15 If you were standing single leg,

45:19 you would be able to hold half of your body weight.

45:22 So, I would hold a 70-lb kettlebell, and do six single leg calf raises.

45:28 It's hard for a lot of people to do body weight.

45:30 But, that's exciting to me, because I tell my patients, this is opportunity.

45:34 All this means is this is opportunity for us,

45:37 and we have a lot of strength to gain here.

45:39 Um but, when we think about those activities, it's in this forward motion.

45:45 But, I want people to also realize

45:47 that the foot can be strengthened in this motion, in inversion and eversion.

45:53 Right?

45:53 Think of like a skier, if you will.

45:55 So, that would be doing calf raises on a slant board, for example.

46:00 You know, really challenging the foot to be strong in these positions.

46:05 If you were to go outside and step off of a curb,

46:09 and your foot goes into your ankle goes into inversion,

46:14 wouldn't it make sense if I trained that position?

46:17 Let me get strong in all these different

46:19 positions that the foot is capable of doing.

46:21 Um things like sled pushes and farmers carries.

46:24 That's all That's all beautiful foot stuff.

46:26 I think it comes back to the footwear conversation,

46:29 because if you're in an over-engineered shoe,

46:32 and you're on a big stack of cushion, and your heel is really elevated,

46:35 it's very difficult to feel that side-to-side terrain adaptation.

46:41 It's where the term pronation comes into, and everyone's terrified of pronation,

46:44 but pronation is a normal motion that brings

46:47 your big toe down to meet the ground.

46:50 So, if you're in these over-engineered shoes,

46:52 you lose that ability to go through those ranges of motion,

46:55 to feel that with any level of acuity,

46:58 and that makes it really difficult to adapt when

47:00 your foot is being asked to go through those motions.

47:04 Let's talk about walking.

47:06 Um cuz obviously, you know, you've you've mentioned the benefits

47:10 of that for a variety of things, as we've covered.

47:13 But, how would you program walking?

47:15 I mean, I know it's easy to say, "Okay,

47:16 just get like three 10-minute walks in, or just get up and go

47:18 for 5 minutes." But, I think in order to get like like benefit for people,

47:23 there has to be some level of pro- progressive overload.

47:26 Um how would you put together a program to where people

47:30 can actually actually improve their health with walking over the long term?

47:35 Great question.

47:36 We've actually designed three of them.

47:38 Um and I think you have to figure out where you where your baseline is.

47:44 And one of the things we talk about is

47:46 your baseline is basically feel good about where your baseline is,

47:50 cuz that means you can only go up from there.

47:53 So, there's a base program where your step count is lower than 2,500 steps,

48:00 and it takes you through 8 weeks.

48:02 Right?

48:02 So, it would be you're going to take a 5-minute walk three times a week.

48:06 And then, we have little movement snacks to work on foot mobility, for example.

48:11 And each week starts to build off of the other.

48:13 I just um gave that program to a patient of mine yesterday.

48:17 Um and I told him, cuz he wants to go to Switzerland in September.

48:22 Um and he's about he's under 2,000 steps a day.

48:27 Uh so, we have some work to do.

48:29 But, I told him, this program's 8 weeks,

48:31 but if you wanted to take 3 weeks on week one, that's fine.

48:35 So, it's also building their people's confidence that they

48:39 can be ready to progress to each stage.

48:42 Um if that's not where they live,

48:44 and they're in hitting about 5,000 steps a day, there's a build program.

48:50 And then, if you're one of those, as we call overachievers,

48:52 but not really, that's a a boost program.

48:55 And that's when we add in, you know, power walking,

48:58 um doing lunges when you're walking, adding strength to it.

49:01 So, I think there's a a place for where wherever you may find yourself,

49:07 there's something that you can work on to progressively improve.

49:10 I like to think of the step counts like an all-of-heart menu.

49:12 So, there's benefits in that 3,800 for dementia.

49:17 That ranges all the way up to 8,900.

49:20 There's some really great research at 5,500 for reducing depression symptoms.

49:24 7,500 is reducing lifetime risk of developing depression.

49:29 Um there's some very large meta-studies that have hundreds of thousands

49:32 of participants in them that have told us if you are over 60,

49:36 you're looking for about 7,500 steps a day to reduce your all-cause mortality,

49:40 which is dying of anything.

49:42 And if you're under 60, it's about 8,500.

49:45 So, the markers are like 2,500 is the basement.

49:47 If you add 500, that is 3,000, that reduces your risk of dying by 7%.

49:53 If you add 1,000 to 3,500, it reduces your risk of all-cause death by 15%.

49:58 Then we've got the dementia stats, upper 3,000s,

50:01 depression stats in the 5 5,000s, and then 7,500 8,500.

50:06 So, there it is it's like a menu at a restaurant,

50:08 is how I like to think about it.

50:10 That's super exciting to me.

50:11 That those numbers, like you take a 10-minute walk,

50:15 you grab another thousand steps.

50:16 That can put you into ranges where you're getting all of these health benefits.

50:22 I mean, that's what I think um I think that's

50:24 an important message for people to hear that these this type

50:28 of uh intervention can dramatically change your health

50:32 with not this commitment where you have to, you know,

50:36 spend hours and, you know, hit well beyond 10,000 steps.

50:40 I mean, this is just consistency and potentially adding

50:44 just a little more to what you're already doing.

50:48 As we're clo- closing the loop on our on our combo here,

50:50 um I think one of the other like roadblocks

50:54 people hit with walking is it can be super boring.

50:56 How do you make walking more fun?

51:00 Courtney and I love walking.

51:01 We don't think it's boring at all, but we do have some suggestions.

51:08 [laughter] I'm a big music person, uh Pearl Jam in particular.

51:11 Um one of the things we've created are two different playlists.

51:15 So, if you were to go on to Spotify, for example,

51:18 you can plug in like 120 beats per minute or 135 beats per minute,

51:23 and then you can create a music playlist

51:27 where you can match your steps to the beat.

51:31 I love combining music and being outside and going for a walk.

51:37 Um the other thing, and probably one of my favorite parts of the book,

51:41 was the research that we found on relationship walks.

51:44 Um walking with your I Melissa and I both have daughters.

51:50 Um walking with your spouse,

51:53 walking with your grandmother, walking with your community.

51:57 There's this social um the social aspect of walking that can

52:05 really create so much more than just this physical activity.

52:08 And I I want people to take advantage of that.

52:10 I think it's something that we as humans were designed to do,

52:14 and I think that makes that can make walking less less boring.

52:19 And it's something that, unlike running where it's really hard

52:22 to find someone who runs at your same pace and cadence,

52:24 and if you're taller or shorter,

52:25 it's really hard to match, hard to have a conversation,

52:29 I really think that is my call to action for people when it comes

52:33 to walking is you can do this with folks who are at different fitness levels,

52:37 different ability levels, shorter taller.

52:40 You can walk with someone who has an assisted device,

52:42 you can push someone who's in a wheelchair, you can take a dog with you.

52:45 Um so, I really just feel like it's a great way to build community,

52:47 and and that's what I'm hoping our book is able to do.

52:50 Well, thank you so much to you both for coming on the pod.

52:52 I really enjoyed this combo.

52:54 Um where can people get the book and learn

52:56 learn more about what you guys are doing?

52:58 Our book is currently available everywhere you buy books,

53:00 Amazon, Target, Walmart, Books-A-Million.

53:04 It's on barnesandnoble.com.

53:06 Uh soon you'll be able to buy it in independent booksellers.

53:09 It launches on Cinco de Mayo, which is May 5th this year in 2026.

53:13 We are just absolutely thrilled for it to be out in the wild.

53:16 We can't wait to hear how everyone is using it,

53:19 and we're just so excited that people are going to be able to share

53:23 the knowledge that we've worked so hard

53:25 to collect from all of our amazing colleagues.

53:28 Awesome.

53:28 Well, thank you to you both for coming on the podcast,

53:31 and I think the listeners in my audience is going

53:33 to get a lot of value out of this conversation.

53:35 Thank you so much.

53:37 Thank you, Doug.