American fashion isn't as liberal as you think | It's Been A Minute

0:00 Someone like the president like Donald Trump himself is

0:03 in some ways very particular about what he wears.

0:06 I mean it really feels like it is reminiscent of circa mid80s early

0:13 90s when he probably felt at his sort of best as a businessman.

0:21 And it's been written about a lot.

0:23 This idea that he not only hires people for his administration,

0:28 but he casts people for his administration.

0:31 He loves people who he thinks sort of look the part.

0:35 It's kind of communicating something about power.

0:40 Hello.

0:40 Hello.

0:41 I'm Britney Loose and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR,

0:45 [music] a show about what's going on in culture

0:47 and why it doesn't happen by accident.

0:50 The relationship between politics and high fashion isn't new,

0:54 but something is definitely changing.

0:56 That's why it's been so curious to see the likes

0:58 of Lauren Sanchez and Jeff Bezos at [music] Paris Fashion Week,

1:02 or Brian Johnson and Clavicular walking the runway.

1:05 To unpack all this, I invited Pulitzer

1:07 Prizewinning critic Robin Gavon to the [music] show.

1:10 Robin has been an instrumental voice in fashion criticism for years.

1:15 Robin joins me to set the record straight about fashion's [music]

1:17 flirtation with politics and how we want our politicians to look.

1:22 Robin, welcome to It's Been a Minute.

1:24 Thank you very much for having me.

1:26 My pleasure.

1:27 My absolute pleasure.

1:28 Um, I'm a longtime reader, longtime fan.

1:32 I've been reading [laughter] you for like decades.

1:35 thinking broadly and kind of pulling out

1:37 to sort of the everyday person such as myself.

1:41 Um it seems like we all have this it seems like

1:45 that we're all sort of chasing this idea um both you

1:49 know myself as really a constituent and politicians and uh political

1:53 figures in terms of like how they want to present themselves.

1:57 like a lot of people are trying to sort of define or chase

2:00 what their idea of what power looks like um in fashion or in style.

2:06 Um it's funny like when on the campaign trail we

2:09 kind of hope that politicians kind of look like us.

2:11 Like I think about um uh you know when you see a figure who's

2:15 typically almost always in a suit like Zoran Miy the New York City mayor

2:19 or former President Barack Obama especially when

2:21 he was on the campaign trail you

2:22 want to see them with their sleeves rolled up and with the jacket off.

2:25 you want to see them pushing their tie over their shoulder so they

2:28 can eat some fried food at the Iowa State Fair or what have you.

2:31 Um, or you want to see them kind of dressed like Tim Walls,

2:34 whether he's in his camo or some, you know, a dad in plaid.

2:39 Like I think there's an expectation that we want

2:42 our politicians to look uh like us to a certain degree.

2:47 Um, I think about like how George W.

2:50 Bush would often be wearing his sort of like western wear.

2:53 uh that that image feels very associated with the idea that a lot of people

2:56 thought about him as like a guy you'd want to have a beer with.

2:59 Like we kind of on some level, at least when they're campaigning,

3:02 we want politicians to seem or look or dress like we do.

3:07 But then when they kind of like ascend to their elected role,

3:10 we also expect them to look like polished and professional.

3:13 And then of course still like even if you elect someone and you're you know

3:17 a reason why you they're in the public

3:19 eye um or have ascended to whatever post they're

3:22 ascending to we do endlessly kind of pick

3:25 them apart for their saratoral style choices in some

3:29 in some ways there are many ways they're fair and some ways they may be unfair.

3:31 I wonder what do we actually want our politicians to look like?

3:35 I mean, I think we want them to look like the best version of ourselves,

3:41 and that obviously means something different probably to to each person,

3:48 but I I think there's this element in which

3:51 you want them to be recognizable to you as someone that you feel that you

4:05 that as someone who sort of makes sense to you,

4:08 but I think at the same time we want them to be a bit better.

4:14 You want them to be more polished.

4:16 You want them to be to look a bit more professional.

4:20 You want them to look a bit more um you know sort of ready

4:25 to step into any environment and wanting

4:31 them to look comfortable in any environment.

4:35 And a lot of that is certainly the attire but it's also the way

4:40 that they move in the attire because there are people um you know you take you

4:46 know someone in a suit right I mean yes Zora Mandani wears a suit

4:52 but he also can wear that suit

4:55 and walk into a classroom of elementary school children

5:04 and be able to move in that suit

5:06 like get down on the floor and have

5:08 them climb all over him which we saw recently.

5:11 Yeah.

5:11 in in a way that shows you that, you know,

5:15 he is he's more than a suit that he is com

5:20 that he is able to sort of bring his entire self

5:25 um you know into that um into that space and I think that's sort

5:31 of the tricky part that you want someone who carries them in a way

5:36 themselves in a way that is a little bit um that that allows

5:43 him to stand out in the crowd but is also comfortable in the crowd.

5:51 You have long written about the intersection

5:53 of politics and style or politics and fashion.

5:56 I wonder what's a moment in fashion where a political figure wore

6:00 something or was styled in a way

6:03 that completely changed their public perception.

6:07 Honestly, I I would say two two things immediately popped in my mind.

6:13 The first one actually was I believe it

6:17 was Michelle Obama at the very last state dinner

6:21 uh that the uh Obama administration hosted and she

6:26 was wearing a Versace rose gold chain mail gown.

6:32 I remember it.

6:33 It was an incredibly glamorous gown,

6:38 but what was really striking was that it was chain mail,

6:41 which was sort of the Versace um uh the iconic

6:46 sort of material that the Versace brand was known for using.

6:51 And it was this moment when, at least for me,

6:54 it seemed to be that she had sort of fully leapt into the fashion universe

7:01 and no longer had even one foot in the universe of sort of first lady fashion.

7:09 The second one was Melania Trump and her um I don't really care.

7:16 Do you coach?

7:18 Oh, that jacket.

7:20 Yes.

7:20 Yes, that caused a lot of conversation.

7:25 It did.

7:26 And you know, she was on her way to, I believe, visit um children at the border.

7:34 And what was striking about it is

7:36 that she has always maintained that the message

7:39 was meant for the media and her sort of critics in um in the public space.

7:48 And even if I think you accept that at face value,

7:52 I think that someone who is in that position who decides that that is the way

7:57 that they want to respond to their critics

7:59 says a lot about uh their ability to be

8:04 be uh specific in who it is that they want to respond to versus just kind

8:12 of spraying anyone within in like eye distance

8:20 uh with their sort of anger and frustration.

8:26 Those are both two very very memorable moments in very different ways.

8:31 Um and they kind of represent I think some of the u I guess like two poles

8:38 of sort of political thought or even approach

8:42 to political dressing that we're going to get into today.

8:45 I mean, I have to say like more recently,

8:48 it feels like some key figures in American fashion have become more interested

8:52 in those on the right or at least

8:55 those who seem to be leaning more politically conservative.

8:59 Um, but specifically, I I'm thinking about Anna Winur.

9:03 Um, you know, photos from Lauren Sanchez and Jeff Bezos's wedding.

9:07 Um, you know, graced one of Winter's

9:09 last covers as editor-inchief of Vogue magazine.

9:13 And you know I I should still mention that she

9:16 is still um the global editorial director of American Vogue.

9:20 Um but to my memory you know at least in like

9:24 the last 15 to 20 years since I have been

9:26 paying a lot of attention to fashion um and how

9:30 it uh kind of mingles with politics at least in America.

9:34 Um much of the American fashion industry seems to have kind

9:38 of uh flocked toward or aligned themselves with um Democratic politicians.

9:45 Does that I'm wondering if that rings true

9:47 for you as somebody who's followed that really closely?

9:49 And and I wonder traditionally what has that relationship kind of look like?

9:53 You know, I mean it's it's funny.

9:55 I I think there is this perception that they've

9:59 always leaned towards Democratic politicians and but but in some

10:05 ways I would say that they have leaned more

10:08 towards um liberal ideas and [clears throat] progressive ideas.

10:15 But when it came to really sort of dressing and responding

10:19 to um sort of the players on both sides of the aisle,

10:23 I mean I would say that they were

10:26 relatively um sort of balanced in that approach.

10:29 There was little judgment.

10:31 I mean the first thing that comes to mind

10:33 for me is um the late Oscar Dearenta, right?

10:37 I mean he was that is who popped in my mind because he all

10:40 he he dressed Hillary Clinton and Laura Bush to my memory.

10:43 Exactly.

10:43 I mean he was someone who was really kind of known

10:46 for dressing first ladies and he happily dressed first ladies of both parties.

10:53 Um when I think about the some

10:55 of the politicians who have appeared in you know you

10:58 were talking about Anna Winter um in American Vogue

11:02 um you know they have included uh Cindy McCain and Condise Rice

11:09 and obviously you know Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama.

11:12 So it hasn't really been this kind of party divide.

11:18 Um it has I think the ideals and sort

11:22 of the policies that the individuals in the industry

11:26 lean towards tend to be those that are more

11:30 um accepted by and promoted by the Democratic party.

11:34 But when it comes to sort of celebrating the politicians

11:37 or at least being interested in the politicians um that are out there,

11:42 they've been interested in in both of them.

11:44 I think it's only recently that we've seen that kind of tension.

11:51 Yeah.

11:51 I I mean I I mean you're absolutely right.

11:53 Like I I do want to say though, it is notable that like while Melania Trump

12:00 has been on the cover of American Vogue,

12:02 this was before she was a sitting first lady.

12:04 Since she's been a sitting first lady,

12:05 she has not been on the cover of Vogue magazine.

12:07 Before she was on the cover,

12:08 I believe with Donald Trump back in the 2000s when they got married.

12:12 Um this is

12:13 He wasn't on the cover.

12:14 She was on He wasn't on the cover, but she was on the cover.

12:16 Yes.

12:16 Yes.

12:16 Yes.

12:16 But the feature was about like them getting married.

12:18 Um, even though I think pretty much every sitting first lady,

12:23 at least to my memory, since at least Hillary Clinton has been

12:28 on the cover of Vogue magazine during her husband's tenure.

12:32 Um, it does feel notable that Melania Trump has not been

12:35 on the cover at any point in either of the two Trump administrations.

12:39 Um, and I suspect that part of that at least has to do with um,

12:44 and I think this is something important to mention that like

12:46 I don't want to tour is a long time and prominent um,

12:51 like uh, supporter and fundraiser for Democratic politicians at least.

12:56 Um, and she's maintained longtime relationships with, you know,

13:00 the Clintons and the Bidens and the Obamas.

13:04 Um, I think that that also kind of is at play here, too.

13:08 this kind of like absence of millennia during like it does feel like

13:11 to me at least maybe that could be an indicator that something has changed.

13:15 Well, you know, the sort of the the history of Vogue with first

13:19 ladies has always been that they have

13:22 always typically been photographed for the magazine,

13:25 but they've not always been on the cover.

13:26 You're right.

13:27 Hillary Clinton was the first one who was on the cover.

13:31 She was on the cover um I believe sort

13:34 of in the aftermath of the Monica Lewinsky Bill Clinton um kurfuffle.

13:43 Uh and uh and then after that Michelle Obama was

13:49 on the cover as you know this historical first lady.

13:53 I think because of that and because of the the real

13:57 sort of resonance that both of those covers

13:59 had um it sort of seemed like okay now we're we're kind of in this this um

14:05 tradition that first ladies are on the cover

14:08 but I remember Laura Bush being photographed for Vogue

14:12 and she was wearing um Oscar de Loretta and and she wasn't on the cover but she

14:19 she wasn't on the cover but she was in the magazine.

14:22 It was a big spread.

14:23 I remember I think she had like a navy gown or something like that.

14:26 It was a big deal.

14:27 Yes, that yes, that sounds right to me.

14:30 Um, you know, the first Trump administration

14:32 was so divisive going into that inauguration.

14:37 And you'll recall that there was a huge debate among

14:41 designers about whether or not they would quote unquote dress dress.

14:46 Yeah.

14:47 The first lady, I remember.

14:48 And you know, it was a real sticking

14:50 point because what this idea of dress dressing

14:54 the first lady really is about are you

14:57 going to make specific garments for the first lady?

15:01 Are you going to do one-offs?

15:03 Are you going to um you know alter things

15:06 that already exist in your collection for the first lady?

15:10 And as a result of a lot of that tension, uh, one,

15:14 Melania Trump sort of bought a lot of things just sort of off the rack.

15:20 And she also turned her attention to a lot of European designers,

15:24 which I think also sort of spoke to her sensibility um, sort of stylistically.

15:30 And that was a huge shift because typically we think of part of the role

15:35 of the first lady as is sort of the role

15:38 of any administration is to celebrate American brands,

15:44 American manufacturing, American artistry.

15:48 Yes.

15:48 I still remember from the first Obama inauguration what a big deal it

15:52 was that Michelle Obama wore this like white uh Jason Woo gown which does

15:59 to your point it feels like a big contrast to like this very slinky

16:03 almost like liquidy rose gold Versace number

16:06 that she wore for the last state dinner.

16:07 They send almost completely different messages to a certain degree.

16:10 But that first gown that she wore um

16:13 in in the two at the 2009 like I think inaugural ball

16:17 um it definitely sent this message that felt like young

16:20 optimistic um and specifically optimistic

16:24 about um America and its possibilities.

16:28 And I think that that to me signaled to the fashion

16:31 industry who had already done I think like I remember fashion designers

16:34 make like designing um sort of exclusive like Obama campaign merchandise

16:39 and selling that on the website um as like a way of fundraising.

16:42 But like it to me it signaled that she wanted to have a relationship

16:44 or that there was going to be relationship between her and American designers.

16:48 And that lasted I mean that lasted for like eight years straight.

16:53 Um and in some ways you know it could be said continues to this day.

16:57 It was also a really interesting moment in choosing someone like Jason

17:01 Woo because he was really in many ways kind of an untested designer.

17:06 I mean he was a very young designer.

17:08 His company was not that old.

17:11 Um he was um you know an immigrant.

17:14 I mean, yeah, a lot of the things at play there really kind of spoke to um

17:20 the kind of administration that um we were that was that that was being set up.

17:27 And the same was true about um the suit that she wore

17:31 at the swearing in which had been designed by um Isabelle Toledo.

17:36 Yeah, most of those designers were really like small independent brands.

17:42 And we talk a lot uh in the in the world of politics,

17:45 I mean, people talk a lot about um small business owners, right?

17:50 Everything is always about like what do small business owners have to say?

17:54 And I think a lot of people forget

17:57 that most American fashion brands are small businesses.

18:02 I mean, there's a few that are sort of these monolith, you know,

18:06 like um you know, like a Ralph Lauren, a billion dollar company,

18:10 but most of them were talking, you know, mediumsiz and sometimes, you know,

18:16 bubble gum and a prayer kinds of kinds [clears throat] of businesses.

18:21 And so that was a real reflection I think

18:23 of not just sort of aesthetics but also sort

18:27 of the way that about entrepreneurship and capitalism and sort

18:33 of the way that businesses are born in the US.

18:36 Oh certainly.

18:36 Did you see the Melania film?

18:38 I did.

18:39 Okay.

18:39 I did as well.

18:40 I did as well.

18:41 Fashion was such a big part.

18:42 It was such a big part of that film.

18:45 It was.

18:45 I mean, you absolutely get a sense of the care and the precision

18:50 that she applies to her wardrobe and to her um her public presentation.

18:58 What I thought was interesting though about the film

19:02 and about her approach to fashion is that, you know,

19:06 I I completely respect um [clears throat] you know,

19:09 someone's approach to fashion that is very much about the aesthetics of it.

19:14 And I think that is, at least for me, where her eye is focused.

19:20 I mean, there is a part of the film where you

19:23 see her really zeroing in on the collar of, you know,

19:28 this shirt that she's wearing underneath a coat.

19:32 And, you know, she's looking at it

19:34 and and she's concerned about sort of centimeters, millimeters really.

19:39 And, you know, and that is one point of view.

19:43 What I found interesting is that she was

19:46 seemed to be less interested in the narrative

19:49 and the stories that fashion can tell about um

19:54 the things that we think are important or the ways

19:58 in which we want to direct someone's attention um

20:02 sort of the the narratives that we want to tell

20:05 and you know I think she is very concerned

20:08 about the the images that will last in history

20:15 versus the the narratives that will last in history.

20:21 I want to kind of stick for a second with sort of how like Republican figures

20:26 on the right um kind of are communicating

20:30 or exploring their specific relationship to style right now.

20:33 Um I think about someone like the president like Donald Trump himself.

20:37 Um he is in some ways very particular about what he wears.

20:41 there's a certain type of shoe that he really likes to buy that he

20:44 prefers for from what I've heard um

20:47 through various reports um about his, you know,

20:50 about his cabinet and his and his colleagues that he's working with.

20:53 Um there's a certain type of shoe that he likes

20:54 to wear that he would prefer if his uh staff wore.

20:58 There are, you know,

21:00 he he kind of wears these um these suits that remind me of kind

21:05 of the fit of the suits that like my dad and his co-workers wore in the '9s.

21:09 Not to say that it's like necessarily an outdated fit.

21:11 It just feels very reminiscent of that time.

21:14 Um a time I think when a lot of people associated him Donald Trump with like

21:19 a power and opulence and possibly being kind

21:21 of at his height or approaching his height.

21:24 Um of like wealth, fame [snorts] in a pre-politic sense

21:29 u and relevance in a pre-politics in a pre-politic sense.

21:33 Um, and you know, he styles his hair a very specific way

21:37 and he his complexion looks a very specific way a lot of the time.

21:41 Um there even I think about someone like I don't know like Pete has said

21:45 a specific way Britney it's kind of like a there's volume there's

21:51 height um it has real structure it has [laughter]

21:55 real structure but there is a there's this kind

21:59 of I don't know I don't know if it's a brand of masculinity or a way of styling

22:04 um but even not even thinking not just about the men but about the women I mean

22:08 there was a whole like trend on social media,

22:12 the sort of conservative girl trend where, you know,

22:14 women were styling their hair and makeup

22:16 in a specific way that they felt mimicked how many

22:20 conservative women um whether they are public figures

22:23 or private figures that post online u on social media.

22:26 Like they were there's like a sort of teased kind of blown out hair um

22:32 and that might have a little bit of volume but perhaps not a ton of shine.

22:36 um a kind of chalky makeup appearance regardless of complexion tone.

22:41 Um and and very pronounced eye makeup.

22:45 Um but there does seem to be a kind of sensibility.

22:50 Um I wonder or or at least like there is an approach like a very

22:54 palpable approach to how to use style

22:57 and fashion as a means of communicating one's values.

23:00 Um I wonder what does that look like in the Trump era?

23:03 I I mean I I think there's there's there's a lot to unpack there.

23:08 Um you know I I I think first you know the disclaimer, right?

23:13 I mean there's no sort of Republican

23:17 style of dress versus Democratic style dress.

23:20 I mean, um, but I think that within sort

23:25 of the Republican world of sort of Trump supporters,

23:30 there are certain things that some of them tend to emphasize.

23:36 And I think one of those things um is the idea of the emphasis on gender

23:42 and very traditional classic stereotypical ideas of what

23:50 um femininity looks like and what masculinity looks like.

23:55 And I think you see that in the way as you were describing this, you know,

24:01 some of the the makeup and the hair and the eye the eye makeup in particular.

24:05 and

24:07 you know the big blown out hair and the um the brightly colored dresses that are

24:13 they kind of go against conventionally I

24:15 think what many people think of as beautiful

24:17 or pretty now even though they're kind of doing

24:20 the makeup and the hair to the max.

24:22 Well, I mean, I think it's leaning into a very sort of stereotypical um

24:28 you could say conservative oldfashioned a little

24:32 bit um notion of what femininity looks like.

24:38 And it's and it's very different from um the way

24:41 that sort of fashion has been presenting gender um in recent years,

24:47 which which is this idea that it's a it's much more malleable.

24:52 you're really borrowing and there's this sort of continuum um

24:55 as opposed to these two separate poles and I think you see

24:59 it in the way that masculinity is presented as well um

25:04 you know in with people like Hegath and uh RFK Jr.

25:09 and their like strange pull-up competitions and things like that.

25:13 All right.

25:14 or how Junior is working out in jeans which is

25:18 like are famously not comfortable to work out in but

25:20 also I have never met an anyone

25:22 on the planet who works out in jeans or [laughter]

25:26 their own um and then you know I think you also have a a president in Trump

25:31 who um it's been written about a lot this idea that he you know not only

25:37 um you know sort of hires people

25:40 for his administration but he casts people for his administration.

25:44 He loves people who he thinks sort of look the part

25:48 of whatever sort of role it is that, you know, he's filling.

25:54 And so he, you know, he wants his he um, you know,

25:58 people related to like the military to look like these sort of beefy,

26:05 muscular, superhero kinds of figures.

26:08 He wants them to look tough.

26:10 He likes guys, you know,

26:12 who have like full heads of silvery hair because, you know,

26:16 like all of these things where he

26:17 talks about like straight out of central casting.

26:21 And so I think that really comes into play when you have when when you

26:27 think about the people who have um

26:30 you know been very prominent in his administration.

26:34 someone like, you know, the dearly departed Christy Gnome um and the way

26:39 that she presented herself um with, you know,

26:44 sort of these like playing a character, you know,

26:47 putting on like the ice vests and putting on like the cowboy hats and

26:53 like all of these things that were very much

26:56 sort of playing uh using fashion as kind of costumeuming.

27:02 And then I would also just add, yeah,

27:05 Nick, you mentioned uh Trump's hair and like the makeup and all that.

27:10 And you know, there is sort of this old adage that people tend to sort of stick

27:16 with a look um as they get older that is

27:22 that reminds them of when they felt at their best, at their most prime.

27:28 And so I think when you look at the way that Trump comports himself,

27:33 dresses himself, it is this it is you you're correct.

27:39 I mean it really feels like it is reminiscent of circa mid80s early 90s

27:48 when he probably felt at his sort of uh best as a businessman

27:56 as a man about town in New York as the king

27:59 of New York and he has continued to use to to to style

28:07 himself in that same way uh regardless of changing times,

28:12 regardless of his own sort of changing like his his body changing,

28:16 his hair changing, all of that.

28:18 I mean, it is still that look.

28:21 That is such a good point.

28:22 I mean, that's kind of it's kind of communicating something about power really.

28:29 um what maybe he thinks power looks like when he felt perhaps at his most

28:34 powerful um and how he recognizes power in other people which I mean

28:39 well I think of sort of recognizing power recognizing um having

28:45 a particular view of what uh importance looks like having a particular view

28:52 of what beauty looks like um having a particular view of um

29:01 you know how he wants the people around him to reflect his sensibility.

29:09 Even though you know the hardest person for anyone

29:15 to really have a clear view of often is themselves.

29:20 And so I think when you kind of look at him and then you look

29:26 at the people that he surrounds himself

29:30 with, sometimes there's this disconnect that you see visually,

29:36 but I don't think that there's necessarily a disconnect in the way

29:40 that he sees himself fitting into that fitting into that lineup of people.

29:48 Hm.

29:49 Really?

29:50 Oh, sure.

29:51 I think he sees himself as, you know, this sort of vigorous ma macho guy.

29:58 I mean, I think that's how he um sees himself presenting.

30:04 You know, as we discussed, it's not necessarily there's it's not monolithic.

30:08 Um there's so many other ways,

30:11 even ways that might seem a little bit more sort of like youth forward.

30:17 um and very online, very digital.

30:22 Um I'm thinking about uh like Braden Peters, also known as Clavicular,

30:29 the controversial to say the least uh looks maxing influencer.

30:33 We've discussed him on this show before

30:35 and at this point I think a lot of people are aware of him um at least because

30:41 of a very interesting interview he did uh with CBS.

30:45 um he was kind of like bubbling.

30:47 He was beginning to crest with the mainstream I think when we discussed him

30:50 on the show a couple months ago and now he's definitely somebody but part

30:54 of like a major step or leap forward kind of like in his rise

30:58 was him walking the runway for a New York based designer named Elena.

31:04 And um you know she has a marketkedly

31:07 different aesthetic let's say than I think what

31:09 you might see if you're kind of scrolling

31:11 through the conservative girl makeup trend on social media.

31:14 Um but she has been deliberate embracing

31:18 a variety of controversial white right-wing figures.

31:22 Um you know whether it is you know having clvicular walk the runway

31:27 to having George Santos uh sit front row at that same fashion show.

31:32 Um there she has a very different look.

31:35 She's kind of associated with what people

31:37 refer to as like the dime square crowd.

31:39 She's taking a totally different tack.

31:41 Yeah.

31:41 I mean, I think, you know,

31:42 fashion is very good at um reflecting back at us what's going

31:48 on culturally and magnifying it to some

31:52 degree or magnifying different aspects of it.

31:57 Mhm.

31:56 There definitely are some sort of, you know,

31:59 conservative strands that are moving through um, you know, the fashion universe.

32:06 Um I mean there are the elements of um you know

32:10 as we were talking about sort of the hyper femininity and

32:14 the the machismo and the idea of um I mean I I mean I hate to use

32:21 the term looks maxing because it's oh it just seems like

32:27 you give something sad a term it's not supposed to be sad and I

32:34 don't know um But this idea of trying to um chisel your way and

32:44 or hammer your way hammer your way and um you know vitamin your way into some

32:53 kind of perceived idea of perfection I think is is is very sad.

33:00 And I don't know that that is to me that's not necessarily sort

33:04 of a conservative thing as much as it is a um terminally online kind of thing.

33:14 Um I I don't want to call it conservative

33:17 because there are definitely people who are conservative who

33:20 would look at some of that kind of let's

33:22 hear that kind of language and be appalled by it.

33:24 I mean that's sure beyond conservative that's into like some

33:31 kind of any anyway it's beyond conservative

33:34 and yeah I mean there definitely is this element of um having this idea

33:43 you know to go back to um the visual aspect of it having

33:47 this idea of what perfection is you know the Looks the looks maxers,

33:56 right, are quite specific about what they're aiming for.

34:02 And um what they're aiming for is a particular it is it is white.

34:10 It is chisel jaw.

34:13 It is um you know a very western white western European look.

34:23 That's interesting that you pull on that thread of like

34:25 at the end of the day there is this kind

34:27 of vein of perfectionism or like sort of what perfect beauty

34:32 or perfect masculinity um or perfect expression of femininity or whatever.

34:37 Um what that looks like.

34:40 Um and in some ways that does kind of line

34:42 up with how some people formulate their conservative politics.

34:47 um a narrow sort of a narrow so what someone may describe

34:52 as a narrow or um very specific set of what constitutes acceptable behavior,

34:58 how one should look, what constitutes what's acceptable in society.

35:03 Um, even thinking outside necessarily a Republican,

35:07 Democrat, just thinking about a conservative

35:11 uh conservatism more broadly does feel like it's kind of concerned

35:14 with um specificity and narrowing and kind of meeting a certain standard.

35:20 Yeah.

35:20 Well, I mean, as soon as you decide that there is um a singular ideal,

35:29 then you've automatically suggested that anyone who doesn't

35:35 the farther away from that ideal you are,

35:38 the less val that less perceived value you have.

35:44 When you start talking about sort of, you know,

35:47 the ideal physicality of someone,

35:51 well, then you're you're getting into very disturbing eugenics,

35:57 white supremacist kinds of categories.

36:01 That then of course opens up the all the questions of well, what is this ideal?

36:07 Who says it's it is the ideal?

36:10 Why is it the ideal?

36:12 What are we trying to say by declaring this the ideal?

36:16 And what are we trying to say about all of those people who don't meet it?

36:20 And you know, I think that's that's like the part

36:24 of the conversation that um sets people's teeth on edge

36:29 and says a lot of very distressing things about where we

36:36 are right now because it doesn't because that's not moving forward.

36:41 That's turning the clock backwards.

36:45 H [sighs and gasps] you know thinking about this current moment um in fashion

36:52 and kind of circling back to sort of where the fashion industry is at um

36:58 Anawanour's relationship to um the Bezos Sanchez couple has kind of taken

37:06 an interesting turn um not just from covering their wedding and putting

37:11 it on the cover of Vogue magazine um but you Honour has

37:15 been seen like you know at various fashion week events with the couple.

37:19 Um Law Roach has begun styling um Lauren Sanchez which has been kind

37:24 of an interesting turn of events and kind of different from I think how

37:29 um how do I put it like there the Bezos Sanchez couple's alignment

37:34 with or at least relationship to um

37:38 like the Trumps and the Trump administration.

37:40 I wouldn't I don't know that Jeff Bezos would say that they were best friends,

37:43 but the couple was um you know, they attended a lot of the couple's

37:47 like most important and key inauguration events.

37:51 Um if there isn't a strong relationship there, uh there is at least maybe

37:56 an attempt at a mutually beneficial relationship there.

37:59 And at least it seems like on perhaps

38:01 the Trump administration's end of things a desired relationship there.

38:04 you know, even though Bezos himself has

38:07 donated to both Democratic and Republican causes,

38:10 um Amazon's pack, like their political action committee

38:13 has donated primarily to Republican politicians and causes.

38:18 Um I wonder like, you know, and now too, you know,

38:21 Lawrence Sanchez and Jeff Bezos,

38:24 they are the primary donors for the 2026 Met Gala.

38:29 um which feels a little I don't know like sort of their prominent

38:34 featuring in um at least what's been communicated about the mechala thus far.

38:38 It does feel kind of notable to me um because this is also a year that like

38:42 you know Beyonce is going to be uh

38:45 I think like co-chairing or co-hosting the event.

38:48 It feels like a big step forward in kind of how at least Vogue,

38:53 the Vogue brand or Kanye Nask, if not the fashion industry more generally,

38:57 might be thinking about um their relationship to the kind

39:00 of power um and influence that a couple like that might wield.

39:05 And I guess I'm wondering like what is this kind

39:07 of like um growing alliance between Anow and the Bezos Sanchezes?

39:15 What might it tell us about fashion's

39:17 current or even desired relationship to power from a distance?

39:21 I think um the the biggest aspect of it is money, right?

39:29 I mean, the Met Gala is the

39:33 uh the key fundraiser for the costume institute and um

39:40 the the great moneyed crowd of the next generation of this generation,

39:49 you know, it's the tech people.

39:52 they are the the rising Rockefellers and Fords

39:57 and Carnegies and so forth and so on.

40:01 So I think some of it is just as simple as that like

40:05 that if you need to raise money you go to the people who have money.

40:10 I mean billionaires don't take this the wrong way

40:15 but I do think that there is an element of vulgarity.

40:20 Yeah.

40:20 And I think that some of this is sort of trying to cleanse it

40:26 a little bit to make it a little

40:27 less vulgar by attaching it to cultural institutions.

40:33 Um I think like a Robert Baron's library or something like that.

40:38 Yeah.

40:38 A a little bit.

40:39 I mean and and and I think some of it is also

40:43 just um it's it's a bright shiny high impact event and if you

40:51 have an interest in if fashion delights you then I completely see

40:57 why you would be enamored in wanting to be involved in that event.

41:02 And I think fashion delights at least Mrs.

41:06 Sanchez Bezos.

41:08 I see.

41:08 I don't know that it delights him all that much.

41:11 I cannot tell from the way that he dresses whether

41:13 he cares about [laughter] this sort of thing at all,

41:16 but definitely it does seem like she at least

41:18 is trying to communicate something about her image through fashion,

41:21 especially over the past year or so.

41:23 I tend to think that what she's communicating is just

41:26 I have a lot of money and I really like clothes.

41:30 I I'm getting that message loud and clear.

41:32 [laughter] Well, Robin, um I really appreciate this conversation and helping me

41:40 to unpack this moment that we're in right now,

41:43 uh at the intersection of style and politics, and I I honestly could not think

41:47 of a better person to have this conversation with.

41:49 So, thank you so much.

41:51 Oh, well, thank you.

41:52 I feel like we still have a trunkload of things that are like densely packed.

41:57 Well, that's why you have to come back.

41:58 You have to come back.

42:03 That was Pulitzer Prizewinning critic Robin Gavan.