Chasing Success vs True Fulfilment - Nat Eliason

0:00 some of the best parts of life I think are

0:04 things that you cannot appreciate or understand until you experience

0:07 them I call these like known costs with unknowable Benefits

0:11 I wish I focused Less on work I wish I spent

0:13 more time with my family you basically never here I

0:18 wish I had had fewer kids I wish I had spent

0:21 more time on work I wish I had spent less

0:23 time with my partner you have to deliberately try to overcome

0:28 your short-term bias if everybody on an executive team agrees

0:33 with a decision you shouldn't do it because it means

0:37 that you haven't fully explored the risks or the possible

0:39 downsides you need to like cancel the meeting everybody go off

0:43 for a day or two think about what you're missing

0:45 there and then come back and try to present what

0:47 the like Devil's Advocate is for it oh by the way

0:50 before we get into this episode I would love to tell

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1:18 description nowon welcome to the podcast how you doing

1:21 I'm doing great thanks for having me on um so

1:23 you have a book coming out soon crypto confidential which is

1:25 very exciting uh but I don't really talk much about

1:28 crypto stuff but I really love your General Life advis stuff

1:31 and I've been following you on the internet since like

1:33 I don't know 2017 or something absurd like that since

1:37 your SEO days um for people who might not be

1:39 familiar with your story can we get a quick like backstory

1:42 and how did you end up writing a book about

1:45 crypto yeah totally so when I you know when I was

1:48 in college I wasn't much of a student I really

1:52 didn't like classes or learning that way and I wasn't particularly

1:55 excited about the job prospects that were common for people

1:59 with like my kind of background it was a lot

2:01 of people going into Consulting banking uh some people going

2:05 into programming but a lot of you know go to New

2:07 York and worked at a a big firm and I

2:09 tried doing an internship that hated it and during the internship

2:14 decided this just wasn't for me and so I started

2:16 literally hiding in the back corner of the office I like

2:19 moved all my desk stuff over there and I would

2:22 come in a little bit early I would bang out

2:24 all of my work for the day in two hours

2:26 and then I would spend the rest of the day reading

2:29 books about Entre R preneurship and like taking notes of them

2:32 and everything and this was back in 2013 so I

2:35 was just sitting back there in the corner I had

2:38 the Kindle app installed on my work computer which they never

2:43 minded thankfully and I was just I mean I was

2:46 mainlining business books right like started with 4our work week

2:51 and ah gosh what were all the other ones you

2:53 know IM mutable laws of marketing kind of like that whole

2:56 that whole era and I I was reading all of them

3:00 and I thought okay I want to start a startup

3:02 I need to get good at something related to startups

3:06 I should figure out how to do internet marketing and like

3:09 content marketing because I was at least a decent writer

3:11 I was doing a Philosophy degree so I had some

3:13 of those chops so I I started my first blog back

3:17 then and then I tried to do a startup and that didn't

3:20 work but I kept blogging along the way I went

3:22 you know I went and I worked for a company

3:24 for a little bit kept blogging along the way I

3:27 went and did The Nomad thing for a bit had some

3:30 like passive from an app i' built kept blogging along

3:32 the way and I just kind of like kept blogging

3:35 and you know eventually that turned into getting really good

3:39 at SEO which you mentioned I kind of like figured out how

3:42 to really work Google during that 2017 2018 to 2021

3:49 period I was really really good at it and so I

3:52 I built a a whole marketing agency around helping other

3:54 businesses do that and I was working on that from 2017

4:00 through 2020 and at the start of 2020 I

4:04 mean everybody knows a lot of stuff went to [ __ ]

4:07 and it was we hit like our Peak Revenue month

4:11 in February lockdowns start the market crashes everything happens in March

4:16 and we lose more than half of our clients

4:19 in the span of a month and we have payrolls we have

4:24 health care we have all these costs and now we're

4:26 losing money and I had to just go into total overdrive

4:30 to save the business right it was like the last

4:33 thing I wanted to do was have to lay off

4:36 everybody when there were people's you know mortgages and Healthcare

4:39 and like all of these things riding on it so managed

4:42 to get it all back on track but then

4:44 by the end of the year I was completely burned out totally

4:49 wrecked I was kind of tired of doing SEO because

4:51 I've been doing it since 2014 at that point and it

4:55 this sounds bad but it was almost like too easy

4:58 like I knew what to do I knew that if I

5:01 started a new site in this Niche and followed all

5:04 the steps and made the content it was going to rank

5:06 it wasn't a fun game anymore and I was just

5:09 I was burned out on the agency side too so

5:11 promoted our coo to CEO she she started running the business

5:16 I stepped out and then I was kind of left to this question of what do I do now

5:22 and part of me really wanted to just focus on writing

5:26 back then I've always loved writing that's the thing that I'd

5:30 always stuck with despite picking up all these other interests

5:33 along the way but I couldn't make the money work

5:36 at that point I didn't have my agency salary anymore I

5:40 had some income from my blog but not enough to pay

5:43 for me you know my lifestyle we had a kid

5:45 coming you know some of these other costs and so

5:47 I said okay I got to figure out something else

5:51 first and the first thing I actually did is I

5:52 tried to get into YouTube which is how I found you

5:56 and then I was watching your uh skillshare video videos

6:00 and in one of your skillshare videos you were reading

6:05 one of my articles which is when I reached out

6:07 to you and that's when we connected I was like dude

6:10 this course is incredible like thank you for making this uh

6:12 but a few months into YouTube I realized that wasn't

6:15 the thing for me got started getting into programming and then

6:18 all this crypto stuff was taking off crypto was just

6:21 going bananas and I started to get more and more

6:23 in my head like hey maybe I can go make

6:25 a bunch of money really quickly doing crypto things and then

6:29 I can come back back to the writing and that led

6:32 to a whole bunch of shenanigans over the next year

6:34 and a half and eventually into getting a book deal

6:39 to talk about that period so I it kind

6:42 of ended up working because now I am just full-time focused

6:44 on writing okay that's there's so many different eras I

6:47 want to go into um I have been a fan

6:49 of your blog since you I said since like 2017

6:51 and you've recently switched it over to substack and I have here

6:55 your uh 40 lessons from 30 years which you wrote

6:59 uh last year um now I've just turned 30 as well

7:01 about a month ago and so I've been thinking about

7:05 these like thank you I've been thinking about these life lessons

7:07 and and all of this sort of stuff and I

7:10 think you're like probably one year older than me and so

7:11 I'd love it if we can riff Riff on some

7:13 of these life lessons yeah let's do it nice so um

7:17 the first one it's never the right time anytime you

7:20 catch yourself saying oh it'll be a better time later you're

7:23 probably just scared or unclear on what to do there

7:25 is never a right time for the big things in life

7:28 having kids changing jobs breaking up up getting engaged married

7:31 moving in together and to know it's never an amount

7:33 of money either how did you how did you land

7:35 on that realization that's a good question it it's definitely something

7:41 that had been floating in my head for a period

7:46 you know so so my wife and I have kind

7:48 of a funny story for how we ended up together

7:50 we started dating in college and but we started dating when

7:52 I was in my senior spring and she was still

7:54 a sophomore so it kind of had this deadline built

7:59 into it it was you know I'm going to graduate

8:01 and then we're going to kind of cut things off and then

8:04 we didn't and then we were on again off again

8:07 on again off again and in my head I felt like you I was you know I was too young

8:12 to like fully commit to a relationship I needed to go

8:15 do this digital Nomad thing I needed to build a business

8:18 I needed to make a bunch of money and then

8:20 I could you know find a partner and I think

8:22 that's a common story a lot of men tell themselves

8:26 especially but I I got to this point where I

8:28 was like you know this doesn't feel like really serving

8:31 me you know constantly running off and trying to explore

8:35 these things and we kept kind of coming back to each

8:38 other and so we said well let's you know let's

8:41 stop being in this yes or no State and let's just

8:47 really make a a big decision here and what we

8:51 did which I really recommend to anybody in an earlier stage

8:55 of our relationship is we said we're going to go

8:59 backpack through a we're going to live in hoses and be

9:02 just you know basically no no alone time nothing we're

9:06 just like stuck together for weeks and we'll either break

9:09 up on that trip or if we make it through

9:13 the trip we'll move in together and we we agreed

9:17 on that before we left we were very clear like we

9:19 don't want to do this Onan aagan nonsense anymore we need

9:21 to create like a clear go or no go situation

9:28 and so we left for the trip neither of us knew

9:30 which way it was going to go I I would

9:32 have we would have kind of believed either but a week

9:35 and a half into it we were both like yeah

9:37 this is it like we're we're fully committing to this and we

9:41 got back from the trip we moved in together in New

9:44 York we got a dog for months later we moved

9:47 to Austin six months after that got married a year

9:50 after that had a kid two years after that we

9:52 did all of these things earlier I think that a lot

9:55 of people like in our demographic just because we kept

9:59 realizing we kept asking this question of like if not

10:02 now when like what actually specifically has to change where we

10:08 would feel ready and we kind of realized that we

10:10 would always be able to invent a reason not to get

10:13 a dog not to move in together not to get married not to have a kid and so we may

10:17 as well just do it now because every previous time

10:22 that we had said okay let's just do it like we're never

10:23 going to feel ready let's just go it had worked

10:25 out great and we'd been super happy with the decision

10:28 and that that kind of has just been such a big

10:32 reoccurring theme in my life that I've noticed over and over

10:34 and over again is I would want to do something

10:38 or be thinking about doing something I would start saying

10:39 oh no I have to like make this other thing

10:43 happen first realize that that's just fear that's just procrastination that's

10:47 some personal blocker and if I say no actually we

10:51 should just do it it pretty much always works out great

10:53 and ends up being incredibly rewarding there's another idea embedded

10:58 in that that I want to Riff on too if you

11:02 don't mind which is there are really some of the best

11:05 parts of life I think are things that you

11:09 cannot appreciate or understand until you experience them so I

11:14 I I blank or I I I call these like known

11:18 costs with unknowable benefits so a lot of a lot

11:21 of the best improvements to your life have these known costs

11:23 but you don't know how great the benefits are going

11:26 to be like getting married is a great one right where

11:29 a lot or just you know committing to a partner

11:31 is a great one where it has all of these incredible

11:34 benefits and it's just such a wonderful thing to have

11:36 in your life once you do it but until you

11:40 do it you only you often only think of the costs

11:43 like oh you know I'm not going to have full

11:46 control of my schedule anymore I'm you know not going

11:48 to be able to date other people I'm going to have

11:50 to prioritize somebody else along with myself right and those might

11:54 seem shallow but they they're they're known cost but you

11:58 don't know how great it can be on the the other

12:00 side it's the same thing with kids right you

12:02 you know that there's going to be a period of not

12:06 getting great sleep your schedule is going to be affected

12:07 it's going to be harder to stay in touch with certain

12:10 friends and then you see people complaining about having kids

12:12 on on Twitter and Instagram and everywhere else so you

12:15 know all of these costs but you don't know how amazing

12:18 all these other little things are and so I actually

12:22 feel like it's a useful heuristic that if you if there's

12:26 something that a lot of people seem to get

12:31 a a quiet satisfaction from but then and there are some you

12:36 know relatively meaningful costs associated with it it's probably worth

12:41 paying that price because there are probably all these other benefits

12:45 that you just can't totally understand I mean exercise is

12:49 another great one right carving out time in your calendar

12:52 to go for a run getting sweaty doing the actual running

12:55 or whatever those are all very knowable costs but you don't

12:59 know how great you might feel in 3 months 6

13:02 months a year of working out consistently and you might discover

13:05 that oh my gosh I feel so much better that it's

13:08 so worth investing that time every day love that air

13:11 on the side of too early over too late so

13:15 I mean the the first thing that can be hard

13:18 to remember is that we're going to die right because

13:22 we just we like to not think about that because if

13:25 you think about it too hard your your brain basically

13:28 breaks unless you have very very Dee rooted Faith right

13:31 and then you know you can you can maybe manage

13:33 it better um or just very deep spirituality but even even

13:36 in that situation it can be hard to think about

13:39 the the finiteness of life and so it's very easy

13:42 to just put things off and do them later and some

13:46 things you can put off for quite a while without

13:50 as big of a cost right like writing a book is

13:53 a good one you know people write books in their 60s

13:56 and 70s so if you put it off by two or three years it's not going to be the end

13:59 of the world but the the thing that inspired that idea

14:03 the better too early than too late was actually again

14:06 around having children I don't want to make this like

14:08 everything is about having kids but I I had this tweet

14:11 that went viral that I said where I said

14:14 a lot of people try to focus on their career before

14:17 having kids but that's actually a big mistake because you

14:22 really only have until call it your late 30s to you

14:27 know I mean really until your early 30s to easily

14:31 have children until your late 30s to like have children

14:33 and once you get into your 40s it gets pretty hard

14:36 so once you graduate from college assuming you're 22 23 you

14:41 have about 18 years to you know date enough people

14:44 to figure out what kind of partner you want find someone

14:48 date them get engaged marry them be together for a while

14:51 and then start having kids and so if you want

14:54 three or four kids even if they're a year apart

15:00 that that alone is going to take four or five

15:02 years if they're 18 months or two years apart now

15:04 we're talking like eight to 10 years and so if you

15:06 try to just focus on building your career into your early

15:10 mid-30s and and then think about that you've lost most

15:13 of the time to do that thing and that's I

15:15 mean that's a that's a really rough thing to talk about

15:18 and like I don't want it to come off like

15:20 I'm shaming anyone for making that decision because I'm not I

15:22 you know everybody has different situations but if you don't

15:26 really think about that time cost it's pretty easy to keep

15:30 saying I'll think about this next year I'll do this next

15:31 year I want to focus on my business or my work

15:33 whatever right now but the truth is you can do

15:36 almost any kind of work into your 60s and 70s

15:40 if you're healthy and active and whatever and if you

15:43 delay advancing your career by 10 years it's probably not going

15:47 to be the end of the world you're still going

15:48 to have a lot of time for that career but if

15:51 you delay finding a partner having kids by 10 years

15:53 you might miss most of that opportunity entirely so it's

15:57 often better to do some of these things earlier than

16:00 later and and this kind of applies to entrepreneurship too because

16:04 if you have any inklings of doing something entrepreneurial that could

16:09 be starting a YouTube channel that could be building a lifestyle

16:12 business that could be you know making a space rocket

16:15 company whatever right like if you do that in your early

16:20 20s when you have like basically no cost of living

16:23 and no other obligations it is so much easier

16:27 to actually focus on that to have the energy the time

16:31 and whatnot to give it that go then than if

16:33 you say well I'm going to work for a consulting

16:35 firm for 5 or 10 years and then I'll try to do the startup it's like no no no no

16:39 no it's going to be way harder to do it after

16:42 because one you're going to be used to consulting

16:44 or banking or Tech job whatever money so you're not going

16:48 to want to live on 50K a year anymore and two

16:52 you you don't have that same like energy and lifestyle like

16:55 lowcost living that you had earlier so it's way better

16:59 to do a lot of the big things in life

17:02 too early and risk having to like figure something out

17:05 than it is to put it off to later and then

17:07 discover that oh like there is no later like I

17:10 actually can't do this thing now some people might might listen

17:13 to your first point around the kids think and say

17:15 well you know that your 20s really are the time where

17:19 you've got to grind on your career as well because

17:21 like if you don't grind on your career straight out

17:22 of college or straight out of University you're going to fall

17:25 behind no one wants to hire people in their 30s

17:27 or 40s or 50s so like I kind of need

17:29 to use my 20s to grind on my career and also

17:31 to have kids like what's up with that yeah I

17:36 mean that that's that's a real concern too it it is

17:39 definitely harder to you know get started on a career

17:43 in your 30s especially in some of these industries like

17:46 if you want to go to medical school kind of have

17:48 to do that right out of college right like you'd

17:49 know better than I do people like go back to medical

17:52 school in their 30s probably not very often but it

17:56 you you do have a choice of how hard you

18:00 want to grind on it right so you have a choice

18:03 of I could do the 12-hour days and try

18:06 to be the absolute number one person at this job

18:09 and Advance as quickly as possible or I can do

18:13 the eight to nine hour days for now dedicate the rest

18:16 of that time to finding my partner figuring out that part

18:20 of my life and then once I have those other

18:23 things that I have a shorter fuse for like on track

18:25 and have started to figure them out then I'll actually have

18:29 a lot more freedom to really grind on my career

18:31 and really put more of my energy there it's actually been

18:36 surprisingly easier for me to be fully committed to writing

18:41 and my work now that I you know have a wonderful

18:44 wife where we can share responsibilities I have children who

18:48 give me this incredible sense of purpose for why I'm

18:51 doing these things and it's not an uncommon story if

18:53 you talk to people who have kids they'll often say I

18:56 thought this was going to make me less productive and it

18:59 did give me less time but it made that time

19:03 so much more impactful because I am constantly you know

19:07 I was a I was a productivity guy like not

19:10 not like you right I I wasn't like that in it

19:12 but I was a you know I pretty I considered

19:14 myself a pretty high output guy like I knew how

19:16 to be productive and I am still constantly asking myself like

19:19 what the hell was I doing with all my time

19:21 before the these thing again it's like these known cost unknowable

19:25 benefits you might think that grinding on your career and invest

19:28 in it is going to get harder once you settle

19:31 down but in a lot of ways it actually gets

19:33 easier yeah one of the one of the big things I

19:36 took away from when we met in person um last

19:40 year was there was something you said around you know I

19:43 think I asked you like not you're like 30 and you've

19:46 you're already married with two kids that's kind of soon

19:48 isn't it for like a Austin living Tech bro

19:50 and you said something to the effect of um you know

19:56 more people tend to if if if you ask most

19:59 people they tend to say they they tend not to regret

20:02 the number of kids they have if anything the regret

20:05 is like I wish I'd had more kids yeah wish had

20:08 more time with my kids yeah that kind of thing

20:10 and so like how did that lead you to decide

20:12 to have kids super early this is kind of it

20:14 goes back to the same thing where you can you can

20:19 read these interviews that are done with people who are

20:22 dying and these you know they pop up on Twitter all

20:24 the time there are books that talk about this and across

20:27 the board a lot of them say the exact same

20:30 things I wish I focused Less on work I wish

20:32 I spent more time with my family I wish I had

20:35 more time with my kids I wish I had more

20:37 kids you basically never hear I wish I had had fewer

20:42 kids I wish I had spent more time on work

20:45 I wish I had spent less time with my partner

20:49 and so there you have to deliberately try to overcome

20:53 your short-term bias right because your short-term bias is that those things

20:57 are scary they're going to be hard I need

21:00 to you know I I want to like enjoy my fun

21:05 party phase whatever in my 20s and like that that stuff

21:07 is fun and I I had plenty of that too

21:09 but I just kept hearing those stories and coet

21:11 and I my wife would talk about it and we would

21:14 say it seems so obvious that when we're in our 70s

21:17 80s the thing that we are going to Value most

21:20 is time with our family and if that if that family

21:24 is bigger and if the kids are older and we

21:29 can be like running around visiting them and everything when

21:31 we had our first kid I was 20 28 and cette

21:37 was 25 so she'll graduate college when coet is 46

21:43 and I'm 4849 like that's pretty cool that's still really

21:48 young we can be just going all over you know

21:50 if she has kids at the same age that we did

21:54 we'll be in uh we'll be in our like early

21:57 50s we'll still be like you know I could them

21:59 you know I could run with them like I could

22:01 do all of these things and we started imagining that future

22:04 more and more and we realized that oh we would

22:07 actually much rather have that future than have a couple extra

22:14 years of partying and being like a young fun married

22:17 couple and we're still a young fun married couple like we

22:19 still we still get to party we still you know

22:21 hang out with friends you know we we had you

22:22 guys over for dinner and like the kids were just

22:24 asleep upstairs and we hung out for like three three

22:27 and a half hours and you know had some wine

22:29 and dinner and it was awesome and like you still get

22:31 to do all of those things so that was the other

22:33 part is we we went into it deliberately choosing to sacrifice

22:36 some of that for this other future and then found

22:39 out that we didn't end up having to sacrifice that much

22:41 of the current life that we enjoyed at all that's

22:45 great I've um I've shared that conversation that we had

22:49 with a bunch of friends and uh a friend of mine

22:52 yesterday was saying that he has been thinking about that conversation

22:55 that I reported to him and now he and his wife

22:57 have decided that they're going to have kids sooner than

23:00 they were orig planning to they're like 26 or something

23:01 and they're like oh we might as well start now

23:03 rather than wait until arbitrarily where I don't know 30

23:06 32 33 before before getting started with that yeah yeah I

23:10 mean it's just it's been so so like wonderful and there

23:14 been so many other benefits we didn't expect and I

23:17 will say this if you're the kind of person who

23:20 is listening to us talk right now you are probably

23:25 an unusually capable parent or potential parent right and you

23:31 probably have the financial resources to make it work better than

23:35 you think you do and you have to remember that the people

23:37 who are just like happily enjoying time with their kids

23:40 are probably not posting about it online it's the people who

23:44 have a bunch of other stuff going on in their life

23:46 where they're kind of fundamentally unhappy people who are

23:49 the ones online complaining and if you're not a fundamentally

23:53 unhappy person who's complaining about stuff all the time you're

23:56 probably not going to be an unhappy complainy parent either

23:59 like you're going to figure it out like if you're

24:01 here listening to us talk right now you're somebody who knows

24:04 how to figure out challenges in your life and so

24:08 yes there are going to be challenges around sleep and negotiating

24:12 responsibilities and all these things but you're going to figure

24:14 it out and then you're going to get all these other

24:18 incredible benefits too and honestly it's it's a hell

24:20 of a lot easier to deal with like the sleep and some

24:23 of the other challenges when you're in your 20s than

24:27 when you're in your late 30s or 40s that there's

24:29 this other this like mini version of it that I've

24:31 heard that I really like which is the reason it's so

24:35 easy to pull all nighters and run on Fumes in college

24:39 and med school is because that's when your body is

24:42 supposed to be dealing with a toddler right you're

24:46 you're you're you're literally like biologically designed to be able

24:49 to run on less sleep during that period and to be

24:51 in a more chaotic environment because like your body knows

24:56 that like maybe you should you should have kids

24:59 at this age and a lot of these things just end up

25:03 being I don't want you know it's parenting's not easy

25:05 but if you are the type of person who is listening

25:08 to us talk it will be easier for you than

25:10 you expect that's nice great um standing social events talk

25:17 to me about standing social events what's up with that dude

25:21 this is this is in my opinion the biggest hack

25:25 for seeing your friends more often because everybody's busy everybody has

25:32 you know they they have their their alone time that they

25:35 want they have their work they have their life maintenance

25:39 and scheduling with people is a big annoyance in general texting

25:44 a friend and saying hey let's get dinner you know

25:46 what's your next week look like oh next week is busy

25:48 like how about the week after like can you do

25:49 Thursday yeah but I have to come at 6 okay well

25:51 uh we could do five you know it's just like

25:54 doing that constantly just to see your friends is a huge

25:58 impediment to spending time together and so what what cette

26:01 and I tried to do really intentionally is create as many

26:06 standing social events in our calendar as possible so one

26:11 that we did for years was a Thursday morning swim

26:15 in Barton Springs so Barton Springs is this wonderful cold natural

26:20 spring pool in Austin it's basically right in downtown and every

26:26 Thursday morning at 7:45 we would meet up with a bunch

26:29 of friends there we would hop in the pool

26:32 tread water talk hang out for a bit and then

26:35 all go get coffee and breakfast together and by 9:00 a.m.

26:38 we'd all spent an hour hour and 15 together we'd

26:40 gotten a little bit of exercise in we'd gotten some coffee

26:44 and on a given week there might be six people

26:46 there there might be 12 people there it it fluctuated based

26:50 on who could come that week but you always knew

26:52 that if you showed up at that time you were going

26:54 to see some friends and that was awesome we kept that going

26:59 basically every Thursday morning for four years and the people who

27:06 came you know fluctuated over time and even when our first

27:08 kid was born we just brought her and she just

27:11 sat in her stroller by the side of the pool

27:12 and we gave her a snack or a toy to play

27:14 with while we we slam and she was right there if

27:17 she cried we could hop out and take care of her it

27:18 was like it wasn't a big deal and we were

27:20 just always getting to see friends on Thursday and now we

27:22 have a bunch other of these like we always go

27:25 to the Farmers Market at the exact same time on Sunday

27:28 and so all of our a lot of our friends know

27:29 that and a lot of them show up at the same

27:31 time too and we either shop together or the ones

27:33 with kids we go play on the playground with our kids

27:35 together and we know we're going to see each other there's

27:37 a coffee shop that we always go to at about 9:00

27:41 am on Saturday morning and we always see friends there

27:45 there are certain like common spots that we hang out

27:47 at and so we can just text the group or text

27:50 a bunch of individual people quickly saying hey we're going here

27:53 at this time today and people will almost always come through

27:56 and that way you're never constantly like trying to plan things

28:00 with people you just know that there are these events

28:02 in the calendar when people can see each other and you can

28:05 just toss invites out into the ether and just see

28:08 who shows up and by very deliberately doing that we get

28:12 to see friends at least four or five days of the week

28:16 if not every day of the week between the things

28:18 that we do plan and things that we don't plan

28:20 and more than half of that requires no effort because they're

28:24 just standing events and being very open to you know people

28:28 bringing their friends as well is great because then you're naturally

28:32 meeting new people you're naturally growing the friend group and it

28:35 becomes this wonderful way for people new to Austin in particular

28:39 to suddenly find a friend group of their own because

28:42 Austin you know especially in 21 and 22 everybody was moving

28:46 here and so these new people would just show up

28:49 at Barton Springs with their friend who they knew when they

28:51 moved here and then we would get to know them

28:52 and now suddenly we have new friends too it's a really really

28:55 cool way to meet people and to continue to connect

28:57 with the people that you already want to spend time

28:59 with this episode of Deep dive is very kindly sponsored

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32:00 premium subscription so thank you brilliant for sponsoring this episode

32:03 and let's get back to the conversation what's your take on like

32:06 the dunar number of like three close friends versus like

32:09 10 close friends like is there not a risk that if

32:11 you're seeing too many of these people you're having like too

32:14 many like superficial relationships with friends like yeah how do you

32:18 how do you think about that maybe I guess I

32:21 don't think about it too much because I I think

32:24 that that number is constantly in flux the people that I'm

32:28 closest with I'm going to be texting all the time anyway

32:32 and it's nice and it's there's nothing wrong with having friends

32:35 who you mostly talk at these events where you see each

32:38 other every three or six months and that's actually really nice

32:41 and I mean I'm somebody who's like not on Instagram very

32:44 much I have an Instagram but it's basically just for posting

32:47 so I sort of don't know what's going on in most

32:49 of my friends life most of the time which makes

32:51 it extra fun we hang out because then I get

32:53 to find out we have like a lot of stuff

32:56 to talk about and so I've never felt overwhelmed by that there

32:59 was a there was one point that cette and I hit

33:02 where we said we're doing too much we're trying to be

33:06 too social and we need to dial it back because

33:08 it was getting in the way of family time but it

33:10 took a while to get to that point and when

33:12 it got to that point it was because we were having

33:15 people over for dinner or going to people's for dinner every

33:18 single night of the week plus doing multiple Hangouts with people

33:21 or groups on Saturday and Sunday so there was just

33:24 no alone time there was no family time and we said

33:26 okay this is a little bit too much let's limit

33:29 it to like three nights a week with friends and two

33:32 nights just us and and that was great too so I

33:34 think it's just something you naturally figure out and you find

33:37 balance for but I think that this is another like

33:40 known cost un knowable benefit I think a lot of people

33:44 who think they prefer to be at home alone more you

33:47 would actually really enjoy it if you had standing social things

33:51 with friends where you get to hang out and have

33:52 dinner or you know just hang out in a park

33:54 for a little bit you just have to kind of get

33:56 over the activation energy to do it and it's scary to invite

34:00 people to things but most people are waiting around hoping

34:03 to get invited to something you just have to be the one

34:08 who initiates it and if you can get over that little

34:11 hump you get this incredible reward of getting to spend

34:15 so much more time with your friends and have these very

34:17 rich in-person relationships yeah yeah I kind of have a rule

34:21 that I often say to myself which is that uh

34:23 everyone is friendly but you have to go first Ah that's

34:26 so great that's such a great way to put it

34:27 yeah yeah I find that whenever I feel that like oh

34:31 that sense of oh no it's it's weird to be

34:33 the one to organize the thing I'm like nope everyone is friendly

34:36 everyone's waiting around to be invited to stuff I can

34:38 be the one to initiate the organization or I can ask

34:40 my assistant to or whatever the thing whatever the situation might

34:43 be and and once you get in that mindset the other

34:47 mindset you really need to develop is that if people

34:50 you invite to things are not reciprocating if they're not inviting

34:53 you to things that's okay it it's not it's not

34:57 a quid pro Crow relationship because a lot of people just don't

35:02 organize things right and they they don't take that initiative

35:04 and that's fine right every friend group needs somebody to organize

35:09 things and so it may as well be you and you

35:12 just can't expect everyone else to do it as well because

35:17 if you do then you're you might get like bitter

35:18 and annoyed and oh why aren't they invited me to things it's

35:21 like no no no no it it's this it doesn't have

35:23 to be balanced like you just keep inviting people to things

35:25 you become the organizer and it it leads to a really

35:30 really RI social life should I learn how to cook

35:34 yes or can I get by by just ordering takeaway

35:38 when I have people around because at the moment I get

35:39 by by ordering takeaway when I have people around and I

35:42 dabbled with I think i' read some blogs of yours

35:44 and I dabbled with cooking like last year and occasionally I'd

35:47 have friends over and we'd all like chop the veg together

35:48 and that was kind of fun but then I sort

35:50 of got out of the habit and then I was like

35:52 H restaurant go for a walk in the park with a little

35:55 sandwich like takeway it's all the same sort of thing

35:57 but I know you're a big advocate for cooking yeah I

36:00 mean I'll I'll I'll give the caveat that if you live

36:03 in London or New York City or downtown Chicago or something

36:05 it might be harder to do this but you know we

36:08 live in Austin and we live a little bit outside

36:10 of downtown so we have a relatively large kitchen living room

36:12 a nice dining area and so for us it's more fun

36:17 to be able to uh cook for our friends when they

36:20 come over and you know we're we're also a little

36:23 bit uh particular about ingredients and sourcing and things and so

36:26 it's nice to be able to control everything that's going

36:30 into the food and cooking so I I think this is less

36:33 of a problem for people who are maybe not like

36:36 white Americans but like a lot of white Americans think

36:39 that when you cook a meal you have to cook like

36:42 a protein and a vegetable and a side and you have

36:45 to make a dessert and it becomes this like huge thing

36:50 in your mind but there are all of these incredible recipes

36:53 where you basically just throw a bunch of [ __ ] in a pan

36:56 and make some rice or have some bread or some

36:59 tortillas and it's delicious it takes like 20 minutes it's

37:04 going to be better than what you order from takeout

37:06 and you're going to have that satisfaction of you know actually

37:10 having made it yourself and it means a lot I think

37:12 to people too when you can actually cook something for them

37:14 and so cette and I just started looking for these recipes

37:17 and we started finding more and more of them and we

37:19 actually have a a physical recipe box which I I also

37:24 highly recommend where whenever we find a recipe that we

37:26 really love we actually write it out so that whenever we're

37:30 making dinner whenever we're buying groceries for the week whenever we're

37:34 hosting people we can just open it up we can pick

37:36 one of these 20 recipes that we use a lot

37:39 and we know it's going to be delicious we know how

37:41 to do it and we know it's going to be pretty

37:42 quick and painless so you just want to find like that way

37:45 to optimize it you don't need to throw a dinner

37:47 party it doesn't need to be this huge Affair having

37:49 an awesome rice bowl with you know a napkin and a drink

37:55 is great and delicious and so I think optimizing around

37:57 that is really really the way to do it and I

38:01 will say that like trying to get the guests to help

38:04 with the cooking often doesn't go as well unless they're

38:06 also really big into cooking usually better to get a lot

38:10 of it prepped before they get there and then throw

38:12 it in the pan once they're there to finish it off

38:14 and then serve everyone um although if you get if you

38:17 have friends who also really love cooking that is super fun

38:19 too we we I had a friend who miles Snider he's

38:25 miles Cooks I think on Twitter he's got this 8020 cooking

38:27 class and he shares all these incredible recipes on his blog

38:30 and when he was in Austin he would come over all

38:31 the time with a couple other friends and we would

38:33 all cook dinner together and that was super super fun too

38:36 but you've got to make sure that it's with other people

38:38 who really like to do that because not everyone does nice

38:43 um this one's interesting trust your negative gut not your positive

38:46 gut yeah so we definitely have this like lizard brain

38:55 Hardware running behind our you know smart rational brain and that part

39:00 of our brain is really really good at detecting bad

39:03 vibes and you'll have this experience where you'll consider working

39:08 with someone you you might start you know talking to someone

39:12 you might be like buying something and this little there'll

39:17 this little feeling in your brain that goes n you shouldn't do

39:19 this you shouldn't work with this person you shouldn't trust

39:22 this person I you should always listen to that and it

39:25 will be wrong some amount of the time but it will

39:30 be right A lot of the time and if you try

39:33 to reason your way out of it you'll often come

39:36 up with reasons to you know work with this person any

39:39 way like oh it's going to be a lot of money

39:40 like oh they connect me to a lot of people

39:43 and it might be great at first but one two three

39:45 months later you'll realize that you were right you should have

39:49 trusted that instinct like that instinct is very very powerful

39:52 and worth listening to but on the flip side there might be

39:56 a situation where some opportunity pops up you're just like

39:59 to the Moon about it this is so exciting oh

40:03 my God such an incredible opportunity whatever and you're just euphoric

40:06 over it and that's a good opportunity to kind of pause

40:10 and reflect and to say you know why am I so

40:13 euphoric about this what what do I think this is going

40:15 to get me what what future am I imagining that might

40:19 be a bit of an illusion because you can also get

40:22 too excited about things and you might not always want

40:25 to trust that instinct because can get you into like short-term

40:29 thinking it can make you ignore certain risks and downsides uh

40:33 a team version of this I've heard that I really like

40:36 is that if everybody on an executive team agrees

40:39 with a decision you shouldn't do it because it means that you

40:43 haven't fully explored the risks or the possible downsides you need

40:46 to like cancel the meeting everybody go off for a day

40:48 or two think about what you're missing there and then

40:51 come back and try to present what the like Devil's Advocate

40:55 is for it because if you can't present compelling argument

40:58 why you shouldn't do something then you might be getting caught

41:02 in some some story that has these hidden risks that you

41:05 haven't fully thought through so you got to be a little

41:08 bit more careful about that side love that um you've got

41:11 a post titled when the money's just too damn good why

41:16 did you write that post and what is it what

41:18 do they talk about so I wrote that as I was

41:22 winding down my focus on crypto and getting back into writing

41:27 and there's you know there's this wonderful book called turning pro

41:31 by stepen pressfield most most people are probably more familiar

41:33 with the war of Art and turning pro is the sequel

41:36 and in turning pro pressfield talks about okay you understand

41:39 that you have this resistance inside of you to do your creative

41:42 work now you want to go pro in your creative

41:44 work how do you turn pro and one of the big

41:48 challenges the big obstacles that he talks about in that book

41:52 is Shadow careers careers that you take on because you're

41:55 a little bit afraid to do the big B thing

41:58 but the shadow career gives you some other wonderful benefit that blinds

42:04 you to the true cost which is that you're not actually

42:08 going after your calling and for me what I really realized

42:10 from being in crypto was that it was making me

42:15 unhappy it was hurting my relationships it was hurting my health

42:18 it was not fulfilling work but I was making a lot

42:22 of money and if I had kept at it I could

42:25 have made a lot more money I could have you

42:28 know retired my kids probably you know if I had really

42:30 just kept on that path the potential riches could have been

42:34 insane and I I got to this decision point where it

42:39 was okay I either go all in on this become

42:42 a full crypto influencer try to join a VC firm really

42:46 really double down so that when crypto comes back in 24

42:49 25 whatever I'm in this incredible position to make the most

42:51 of it or I say this is actually where I

42:57 have to quit because the desire for money is is just

43:00 completely blinding me to what I started doing all

43:03 of this to do which was to write and that story actually started

43:07 way earlier it started in 2017 where I was living

43:10 in you know this little studio in Manhattan with coet and I

43:15 was going to Starbucks every day and I was really

43:17 trying to make writing work and I wrote some great blog

43:20 posts in that period but I literally did not have

43:24 the money to just focus on that we were you know

43:27 hangman had rent we had other food costs and all

43:28 that stuff I wasn't making much and so I said okay I

43:31 have to put this aside because I have to go

43:34 make money doing something else and that's when the SEO agency

43:36 started but somewhere along the way I forgot that I started

43:40 doing all this other work just to be able to afford

43:43 to get back to writing and so I hit this peak

43:46 in crypto and I didn't have the outcome that I thought

43:49 I was going to have most of the money that I

43:51 thought I made went away but I did make enough where

43:54 I could just focus on writing for four five six years

43:59 and spend some of that down to pay for my lifestyle

44:01 in the meantime and I just kind of had

44:03 this wake up moment where I realized if I don't do

44:06 this now if I don't get off the money train now

44:08 it's just going to totally take over and I don't know

44:11 when I'm going to come back to this and so it's

44:15 there it it sucks to try something and have it fail

44:18 but sometimes it sucks more to try the wrong thing

44:22 and have it succeed because success at the wrong thing is

44:24 its own curse because you're getting this social validation oh

44:27 my God you're so good at this oh you're so smart you're

44:30 succeeding you're you're winning at this game you're making all

44:32 this money and you start thinking like oh this is what

44:35 I should be doing and money is like the most corruptible

44:38 tool for getting you stuck on the shadow career and so

44:42 sometimes yeah you have to say you know what the money

44:45 is distracting me from the thing I actually want to do

44:47 and I got to get back to that and you've

44:49 got to be really aware of how that can happen when

44:53 you yeah when you succeed at the wrong thing yeah

44:55 for me I think one one thing I really took away

44:57 from reading that was that I I realized that there were

45:00 so many instances in my life where the primary reason why

45:03 I did a thing was for the money yes and I'm

45:06 now very suspicious when that's the case like if the primary

45:09 reason is for the money I think twice and then three

45:10 times and then four times like wait a minute and I

45:13 I run the the thought experiment of like let's say

45:15 I had 100 million in the bank would I still choose

45:16 to do the thing and if the answer is no then

45:19 I'm like okay do I really really need the money I

45:22 kind of don't so it's like it's usually not a good

45:24 idea to say yes to the thing and I'm slowly

45:26 getting better at like calibrating that absolutely it's a hard question

45:29 to ask too but I had the same realization I was

45:32 like okay I did the agency because I needed money

45:35 and I legitimately needed it like I needed to pay my bills

45:39 but then when I started doing the crypto stuff we

45:43 could have pulled our spending way back and I could have

45:46 gone all in on writing it was kind of an in between

45:50 an in between point but now is at this point

45:52 where I was literally just doing things for the money

45:55 and the crypto money had just ruined my relationship with money

45:58 it had corrupted my brain so thoroughly that I'd sort

46:02 of become this person I didn't recognize anymore and it really

46:05 really scared me and it was really really hard and so

46:09 I I had to get very serious about like not only

46:13 am I going to quit this and focus on writing

46:16 but I am going to force myself to not do anything

46:20 else besides the writing that could make money in the meantime

46:25 unless I sell all of my crypto though unless I am

46:28 truly out of that like piggy bank and I actually

46:34 have to go get a normal job whatever to you know

46:38 support my family I will not do anything else besides focus

46:44 on the writing for making money and that's a really scary

46:47 thing because making money from writing is a long slow

46:50 process if you pull it off and most people don't it's

46:53 it's kind of a crazy career to go after but I

46:55 felt like I had an opport I felt like I could

46:57 get good enough at it and I just have to like

47:00 you said I have to keep reminding myself these shiny

47:03 objects pop up all along the way when the AI tools

47:05 started coming out I was like oh my God I could

47:07 make a right with AI course and I could probably

47:10 make you know six figures maybe seven figures selling this like

47:13 awesome course on writing with chat and Claude and God it

47:17 was hard to say no to but I had to like I knew that I had to do it if I

47:22 wanted to really focus on this because if I went down

47:24 that path for another two years and then woke up

47:26 in two years not made any progress on the writing I would

47:29 really really be kicking myself what do you mean the experiences

47:32 in crypto corrupted your brain when it came to money

47:35 so you know that this is all in the book

47:37 but at the beginning at the beginning I'm like just trying

47:39 to replace my agency salary I'm just trying to make

47:44 like 150 200k or something enough to focus on the writing

47:46 for a year to give me that piggy bank at the peak

47:51 of the story I have over $10 million in like paper

47:56 crypto gains and at no point when my you know

48:01 that money wasn't like in my bank account I couldn't like

48:03 pull you know there's a lot of problems with seeing

48:05 that number when it was at that number I wasn't thinking awesome

48:10 I'm done I can like take this I can take

48:12 out what I can I can quit I can get back

48:13 to the things I want to do I'm thinking this is

48:15 going to 100 million I'm thinking like I'm done this is

48:19 just going to keep going up and I was I

48:21 was literally rolling over in bed every morning hitting a button

48:26 and getting like 10 20 $30,000 like liquid that I could

48:30 have pulled out to my bank account but I wasn't I

48:34 was reinvesting it in crypto I was putting it back

48:37 into the market I was making more in a week than

48:39 I had hoped to make for a whole year and I

48:44 wasn't taking it out I just kept doubling down with most

48:48 of it and I I had a couple of really

48:51 scary things happened where I literally almost lost all of it

48:56 and it was this cra wake of like oh like what

48:59 happened to me like who is this like why am I

49:02 leaving all this on the table I literally like

49:05 a newborn and I'm not pulling the money out

49:10 for for her and for our family like what is going

49:13 on and that was just such an insane wake up to realize that I'd

49:18 gotten into that space and that I I needed to fix

49:20 something and I mean that's literally why I like don't

49:22 let myself look at almost anything crypto related now because I

49:26 know that I'm an addict I know that I'm a gambler

49:28 like I will get sucked back into it if I

49:30 let myself and part of my self-preservation is I I have

49:34 to keep that distance from it to not let those demons

49:38 back into my head anymore the the big blessing I think

49:44 is that having had that experience relatively young if I

49:48 come into some you know really significant amount of money

49:52 in the future again uh which I hope I do I'm

49:55 going to have a lot more respect for it I'm not not

49:57 going to be deluded into thinking that you know this infinite

50:00 money printer is going to keep going on forever I'm

50:02 not going to keep leaving all of it on the table

50:04 and that's actually kind of a common story too if you

50:06 listen to like entrepreneurs and stuff who have an early

50:09 win and then they they might end up losing all

50:10 of it because they double down they go to the next

50:13 thing they they use their secondary sale to like pay off

50:16 the the taxes on their stock options and then their company

50:19 ends up going to zero and they they don't end up

50:21 getting anything out of it right like it's not an uncommon

50:24 story and everybody thinks it won't happen to them they think

50:26 that oh you know if if if I see this huge

50:28 number in my crypto wallet I'll pull it out I'm

50:32 smarter than that you're not like it'll it'll get you

50:36 too most likely and so I it it was it was

50:40 at least useful in that sense to give me that story

50:42 to keep in my mind of myself that like this this could

50:46 happen to you again so you have to be really

50:50 really careful about it nice um what what are your thoughts

50:54 on living in a lower cost of living place and I

50:59 ask cuz like we're thinking of maybe we're thinking of leaving

51:03 the UK and maybe going to Hong Kong or maybe

51:07 going to Malaysia to qual lumur now one of those has

51:09 like a 5x lower cost of living than the other one

51:13 and I'm trying to think like how how much of a difference

51:18 will cost of living make to my life realistically do

51:21 you have any any any thoughts on that I think it's

51:23 an incredible tool when you need to use it to get

51:27 started so when I started working for myself doing this entrepreneur

51:32 lifestyle business blogger journey I I did the far Work

51:35 Week thing I literally went to Buenos Iris and I lived

51:37 there for five months uh I rented a small bedroom

51:42 in SF for a few months I I got my cost

51:45 of living as low as I possibly could and I I

51:49 kind of needed to do it because that was the only

51:51 way I could focus on some of the work that I

51:52 wanted to focus on at that point and I wasn't making

51:56 very much money but if you can afford to live

51:59 in a major city I do think that moving to a low

52:05 cost of living area is kind of a bad choice

52:09 just because you get so much by living in a big

52:15 city you get access to more interesting people um you can

52:19 you know travel to see other people a little bit easier

52:23 you get a lot of like Safety and Security you

52:26 probably have um you know better like facilities and other accommodations

52:32 and it's kind of like the it's kind of like optimizing

52:36 for taxes right it's like sure you could move to Puerto

52:39 Rico in the US and like not pay income tax

52:43 but paying taxes to live in New York City or Chicago

52:47 or Austin you you still have to pay federal income tax

52:49 is like worth it to be around all of those people

52:53 and I really feel like the energy that you're around

52:58 is really important and being around people who are very driven

53:03 to like do big great things with their life is very

53:09 infectious and very powerful and it's harder to find those people

53:11 in areas where people are going to try to like

53:14 minimize their cost of living as much as possible uh I

53:17 also think you know it makes a big difference if

53:20 you have like kids right like if if if you want

53:22 to do the low cost of living thing like yeah

53:25 do it when you don't have kids because once you

53:27 to think about preschools and elementary schools and stuff like it's

53:30 going to be harder to find one that you really like

53:33 in in Bali or somewhere or like they're not going

53:35 to get exposure to a big diversity of people and like

53:38 the the diversity of people you get access to I think

53:40 is a big deal too because like it whatever this this is

53:44 going to offend some people but I'll say it like

53:46 my my idea of hell is like living in one

53:48 of those regions of Bali only surrounded by other people trying

53:52 to do like Drop Shipping or influencer businesses because then you just

53:56 have no Variety in the people that you're talking to right

53:59 and I think that would be really hard as well

54:02 so wonderful tool when you need it to get your stuff

54:04 off the ground but once you don't I I I kind

54:08 of see it as like a way to bootstrap your entrepreneurial

54:10 career it's like once you don't need it it's really

54:11 nice to be around very motivated people in a big

54:16 metro area one of the things a lot of people seem

54:18 to do in the US is you know they might be in a New York or an SF or an Austin

54:22 or something and then at the point where they have kids

54:24 they're like hey I'm going to move to I don't know North

54:28 Carolina or something where there's more like family values and it's

54:32 like you know the the nice house in the suburbs

54:34 with the white picker fans and the whole shebang there more

54:35 of a I don't know if this is just a romanticized

54:38 view of certain areas of the US but more of a hey

54:40 we're all going to get together and have a barbecue

54:42 on the weekend kind of vibe yeah yeah we you

54:46 know we've thought about it and it is very appealing there's

54:50 a lot that you get with that I mean if

54:52 you're willing to go 30 minutes outside of Austin your money

54:56 goes three times further in terms of what house you can

54:58 get right like you can have a bigger yard you can

55:00 have the white Thicket fence you can you know have

55:05 space for everybody and you know that that's very appealing

55:08 and a lot of people do it too to be near

55:10 family because they want help with from their family for raising kids

55:14 and you know or they just want the space and especially

55:16 with remote work like you can live in those areas

55:18 and probably still do a lot of the same job

55:21 and coet and I talked about it a lot and it is

55:24 very appealing and where we eventually settle is that you

55:28 know where we are in Austin we're not downtown but we're

55:31 10 minutes away from it we have a yard it's

55:34 a small yard but it's a yard we have space for everybody

55:38 in the house and we're kind of like in between we're

55:40 definitely not in the suburbs we're not down town and we

55:44 get a bit of The Best of Both Worlds where

55:47 we are right now and we're very very fortunate that we

55:50 can afford to do that you know that's the big

55:53 caveat is that we can afford to live in our house

55:58 with up to four kids and not really have to change

56:01 anything and I mean that's an incredibly privileged position to be

56:04 in the other conversation that we've had though is that if

56:09 something changed so let's say the crypto confidential completely fails I

56:13 can't get another book deal and it's going to be three

56:16 four five years before the writing career can start to pay

56:18 for like you know and coet works too she's a realtor

56:21 but like you know we kind of rely on both

56:23 of our incomes if and you know if for some reason

56:26 know crypto goes to zero and I don't have that piggy

56:28 bank if like all of these really bad things happen where

56:32 we could no longer really afford to live in the part

56:34 of town that we're in and have as many kids

56:37 as we want to have we would much rather move out

56:41 of an area we like to somewhere less expensive and have

56:46 the family we want than stay in the busier area

56:50 and have a smaller family and I think that's an important

56:52 that's like an important conversation to have right like what's more

56:55 important to you is it being near the action or is

56:58 it having the family and being willing to adjust your life

57:03 around that and you know we it's conversation that you

57:06 have to have and that's kind of where we we settled

57:10 and we would love to be able to have like

57:13 you know there's a couple other neighborhoods in Austin that are

57:15 as close to downtown but where you can get the like

57:18 big white picket fence house but it's you know 35 million

57:21 it's crazy expensive and like I would love to have

57:24 one of those houses I definitely can't afford it right now

57:26 um but you know if that happened that would be great

57:30 too but we're not like riding on that happening we'd much

57:33 rather be like Cozier and more Compact and be where we

57:36 are around so many of our friends then have to like

57:38 give some of that up prematurely yeah nice um one

57:43 thing another one of your blog posts that I really liked

57:46 many years ago was I think you were talking about

57:49 how you were living the 4-Hour week work week lifestyle

57:53 and there was this void yeah um there the chapter

57:56 in 4 Hour Work literally called filling the void um yeah what's

58:01 your what what's your take on this cuz I guess

58:03 a lot of people who watch my stuff aspire to the whole

58:07 Financial Freedom thing where they're like oh if only I had

58:10 the business that I that made passive income I'd be able

58:13 to do whatever I want dot dot dot dot dot

58:15 dot and it's like well when you ask like well what

58:18 do you want it's like I don't know just being able

58:20 to not do things I don't want to have to do

58:21 it's like okay but then what do you want to do

58:25 it's like it becomes quite confronting in a way what

58:27 was your experience with that well and it's such a funny

58:31 thing because I feel like everybody misses that chapter the first

58:35 time they read the book they just focus on the how

58:37 do I make a bunch of passive income and then

58:41 if they get it basically everybody realizes that they're just not

58:46 very happy in that life it's fun for like 3 six

58:48 12 months you do the traveling you do the you

58:51 know taking whatever random classes you want playing with your hobbies

58:55 and then you feel kind of empty inside and you realize

59:02 that meaningful work is a core part of human fulfillment and what

59:07 I realized you know first back then was that just

59:12 doing these things to get some passive income so that I

59:15 could quit doing them was really a losing proposition because doing

59:18 a bunch of work that you don't really want to do

59:20 so that you don't have to do work that you

59:23 don't want to do is kind of this like silly tradeoff

59:26 if you have the option to make it and it it

59:31 that was the first time when I was like okay I

59:33 should try to actually work on something long term right

59:35 something that I could actually keep working on year after year

59:38 after year after year after year and enjoy working on it

59:41 because that's where you're actually going to get this long-term happiness

59:45 and the thing that nobody in the passive income World

59:48 wants to tell you is that there's really no such thing

59:51 as passive income because the minute you let it go passive

59:55 it starts dying it starts just slow going down and it

59:58 will trickle away other people will come in and eat

59:59 your lunch your work will get stale your products will get

1:00:02 stale you'll get beaten out on Amazon or for your courses

1:00:05 or for your SEO or whatever and in two years you're

1:00:07 going to be back where you started before you built

1:00:09 a thing so you better use those two years to get

1:00:14 somewhere interesting because if you think that you can just gallivant

1:00:18 around living this funded lifestyle forever you're actually going to be

1:00:22 worse off than where you started at the end of it

1:00:25 because not only will you be to square one without

1:00:27 the passive income you'll have now lost two three four years

1:00:29 of your life so where I think the the passive income

1:00:34 for Hour Work Week lifestyle business stuff is very useful is

1:00:37 a way to bootstrap working on something bigger so if you

1:00:40 know that you want to be a writer or a painter

1:00:44 or a YouTuber or any of these careers with a long

1:00:49 startup time to pay your bills doing the lifestyle business

1:00:52 first to fund you for two years while you get

1:00:56 that going is is actually pretty smart I mean same thing

1:00:58 with a startup right if you can do the lifestyle business

1:01:01 to give you some Runway to actually work on a startup

1:01:04 so that you don't have to take money right away

1:01:06 and don't have to dilute yourself that's an incredibly good use

1:01:11 case but trying to fill the void with experiences and Novelty

1:01:16 does get old really really quickly and you have to be

1:01:19 ready for that and I don't tell people not to do

1:01:22 it I don't tell them not to chase it because

1:01:24 nobody believes you when you say that right they're like like

1:01:26 yeah you got tired of it but I won't like

1:01:28 I love traveling I love going to new restaurants I love

1:01:31 doing these things and it's like yeah you love them because

1:01:35 they're a break from the work that you don't enjoy doing

1:01:38 and because they're occasional things when that's your whole life you're

1:01:41 going to get bored really quickly but you have to go

1:01:44 experience it to realize that that's the case but then

1:01:49 once you have that little inkling don't feel guilty about it

1:01:52 accept it say cool I checked this box and now

1:01:55 I have this run way to go do this big thing

1:01:58 that I was scared of doing before but I now have

1:02:01 the means to do and go do that thing nice yeah

1:02:06 that's great um finite and infinite games you talk about

1:02:10 this book I think in one of your YouTube videos from back

1:02:13 in the day I talk about it everywhere this one

1:02:15 my favorite book about it everywhere yeah I've I've never read

1:02:17 the book but like what what should I understand or what

1:02:19 should listeners understand about the idea of finite versus infinite

1:02:22 games it so it's a wonderful book it's very short it's

1:02:26 weird and philosophical uh but also very tactical in its own

1:02:30 way and the core thesis of the book is that everything

1:02:35 that you do in life is a kind of game

1:02:38 right so this conversation that we're having for your podcast

1:02:41 for your YouTube is a a game of sorts and there are

1:02:45 two ways to think of games a finite game has

1:02:50 a closed boundary it has a winner and loser it has

1:02:55 clear rules uh and you there there's a way to like

1:02:58 succeed or fail there's an end to it all these things

1:03:02 right like a football game is itself a finite game

1:03:04 because there will be a winner or loser at the end

1:03:06 of it if I came into this conversation with a finite

1:03:11 game mentality of I need to like win this conversation I'd

1:03:14 be very focused on like you know slipping crypto confidential

1:03:18 into everything that I talk about on yeah exactly like buy

1:03:21 the book right like you know if if you buy

1:03:23 by the end of this podcast you're going to get 10 know

1:03:26 whatever right like it would you'd be milking it for all

1:03:28 that it's worth um but if you take a more

1:03:31 infinite game approach to something like this your only goal is

1:03:36 to basically like have fun the the the reason you play

1:03:39 an infinite game is to keep the game going it's

1:03:43 to continue to extend the boundaries and the realm of play

1:03:47 and if you're thinking about it that way where it's not

1:03:50 transactional it's not a winner or loser you behave very differently

1:03:54 because the only thing that I'm focused on right now is

1:03:56 like having a fun conversation with you and if the book

1:03:59 comes up great if it doesn't I also don't care

1:04:01 because like we're friends we've known each other on the internet

1:04:03 for years like we're just having a good time and like

1:04:05 hopefully it's valuable to people too which means that we're

1:04:09 going to have a lot more conversations over the course

1:04:12 of our life like this this game that we are playing together

1:04:14 of being you know internet creators book writers whatever can

1:04:19 continue to expand infinitely as we continue to support each other

1:04:22 over the course of our hopefully very very long careers

1:04:25 and you can think of so many things in your life

1:04:29 this way right like even even the the sports analogy

1:04:32 right if you're constantly focused on winning this tennis match then

1:04:38 your your emotion your identity and everything is tied to the outcome

1:04:43 of each match but if the game that you're playing is

1:04:45 getting better at tennis then whether you win or lose

1:04:48 the individual game you're still winning at the infinite game of getting

1:04:52 better and better or if your infinite game is just

1:04:54 that I love to hit the ball right there's this wonderful

1:04:57 jokovic interview where he's like my advantage is that I

1:05:00 just love hitting the ball and that's why he's like one

1:05:01 of the best tennis players in the world and if you

1:05:04 can think about it that way then you're less attached to shortterm

1:05:09 outcomes and you end up like winning more of these little

1:05:14 finite games along the way because you're not attached

1:05:16 to their individual outcomes and so he he ties this into so

1:05:20 many things he ties it into relationships right like you know

1:05:23 the the best way to uh uh to to find

1:05:26 a partner to have a successful date is to not be

1:05:30 trying to make it a successful date right is to like

1:05:33 just be yourself and be interested in them and like have

1:05:37 a conversation and not be you know checking the watch

1:05:39 and wondering if you're going to get to go home with them

1:05:41 and like trying to you know get something out of it

1:05:45 right uh if you're you know if you're if you're

1:05:47 working on YouTube videos right like playing the infinite game

1:05:50 of trying to make each video a little bit better is

1:05:52 going to pay off a lot more in the long run

1:05:55 than being being obsessed over every single video hurting hitting like

1:05:58 a very specific metric you know me as a writer

1:06:02 like I hope that this book does good I want it

1:06:04 to do good but I'm in this for the rest

1:06:06 of my life at this point and so I know that by focusing

1:06:10 so much more of my energy on making the best

1:06:13 book possible instead of on milking as many sales from it

1:06:17 as possible that's going to set me up for many

1:06:21 many great books in the future and over a long term

1:06:24 that's going to compound it to more and more in interesting

1:06:27 things so that book is just so good at showing

1:06:30 you all of the parts of your life where you could

1:06:34 be thinking on this more infinite Horizon instead of constantly being

1:06:38 attached to winning whatever little thing you're in in that moment

1:06:42 oh that's nice all right that's a good sales pitch I'm

1:06:45 gonna read the book um yeah it's great um yeah I've

1:06:48 been I've been thinking about this a lot in the context

1:06:51 of of my own stuff and I had a great

1:06:53 chat with someone at a wedding a couple of weeks ago

1:06:56 and she was a tenured professor at like UCL teaching

1:07:00 cool computer science or something and you know 10 year professors

1:07:04 don't make very much money maybe I don't know 40

1:07:06 50k or something like that but they get to do whatever

1:07:09 they want and she's like yeah I can basically do whatever

1:07:10 I want the university pays me basically forever for the rest

1:07:13 of my life to just do whatever I want do

1:07:14 interesting things and teach a class every now and then yeah

1:07:17 and it kind of got me thinking oh that's a very

1:07:19 infinite gamey type career where the goal is to just sort

1:07:21 of keep on doing the thing yeah there's all the sort

1:07:23 of incentives to publish and stuff in Academia but once

1:07:25 you're attended Professor it's like you're you're pretty set and it

1:07:27 kind of got me thinking that like me making YouTube videos

1:07:30 you doing your writing it's like in this Creator world

1:07:34 we are all tenur professors just not by an institution

1:07:36 but by the you know thousand true fans that we have

1:07:38 who will pay for our stuff or whatever the thing might be

1:07:41 yeah and if I think of it in that way

1:07:43 it's like if a university were to offered me a full-time

1:07:45 tenure professorship where I can do whatever I want and teach

1:07:47 a class every now and then and pay me 50K I'd

1:07:50 be like wo that's incredible but for some reason I

1:07:52 feel like I need to make way more than 50k

1:07:54 in this 10e professor being a YouTuber or being a podcast

1:07:57 or whatever like what's up with that it it it's really true

1:08:01 and it kind of goes back to the the shadow career

1:08:04 versus the the true calling from the the turning pro discussion

1:08:08 it's like your your true calling is going to be

1:08:12 an infinite game for you because you're not attached to these other

1:08:18 things that you need to satisfy you when you're stuck

1:08:22 in a shadow career or a shadow calling and so that is

1:08:26 actually a really great way to figure it out is

1:08:28 like you know if I could I do this every day

1:08:32 for 30 years and be happy even if I don't

1:08:34 have a big Financial outcome from it right like could it

1:08:37 be something where it's just worth doing for the sake

1:08:40 of it and not purely for some Financial outcome like these questions

1:08:44 are really really helpful for realizing what that kind of work

1:08:48 might be for you yeah that was a great uh

1:08:50 quote I came across from Alan Watts um from one

1:08:53 of his like audio clips which is you know people often

1:08:55 go go up to him and ask him or back

1:08:57 when he was alive like you know what should I do

1:08:59 with my career and his answer is always like well what's

1:09:02 the thing you would do if money were No Object yeah

1:09:04 why' you go and do that and people are always like

1:09:08 whoa I can't possibly do that because I need to qu

1:09:10 I I need to make the money but I think

1:09:13 increasingly yeah obviously you know there is some level of you

1:09:15 know intelligence and like uh strategy that sort of goes

1:09:19 into this but broadly if you find the thing that you

1:09:21 would do if you weren't worried about making money you

1:09:25 could probably in this in this era do yeah and I

1:09:30 think that the the like 4our work week passive income

1:09:37 lifestyle business and even some of the Creator economy stuff has

1:09:42 like sold this lie that you can make a ton

1:09:46 of money really really quickly and like then you can go maybe

1:09:51 do the thing later or that like if you pursue

1:09:53 one of these careers you can you know that money really

1:09:56 really fast right and a few people definitely do right like

1:10:00 we know a bunch of people who have had that kind

1:10:02 of success and they have hit those numbers but the vast

1:10:05 majority of people don't the only people who do are

1:10:08 the ones who in many cases are in it for the like

1:10:11 infinite game aspect of it they they didn't start doing

1:10:14 it because they wanted it to make a lot of money

1:10:16 really quickly and the reality is that in the vast majority

1:10:20 of work and in careers it takes a long time

1:10:25 to get good enough to make good money in it and if

1:10:28 you're always in this mindset of I should be making

1:10:31 like six figures from this thing in a year or two

1:10:33 you're never going to put in the work and the time

1:10:36 that you need to actually get good enough to actually make

1:10:38 the amount of money that you want to make you

1:10:41 have to let that myth go so that you can spend

1:10:46 the time necessary to actually get good at the thing

1:10:48 and then the money is going to follow in almost any domain

1:10:52 you're going to find a way to make the money

1:10:55 from it you just have to be willing to like put

1:10:57 in the time and get good instead of always looking

1:10:59 for like a quick hack to the top nice um talk

1:11:03 to me about your brief stint with being a YouTuber

1:11:06 Tik tocker instagrammer like influencer type person and like what was

1:11:10 the Arc of that yeah this is kind of a funny

1:11:13 one so I you know I started playing with YouTube back

1:11:16 in 2020 I thought maybe I wanted to do it

1:11:17 then ultimately decided not to and then I started working

1:11:21 on the book in 2022 and by the end of 22

1:11:25 I had a first draft but I basically thought it was [ __ ]

1:11:30 I didn't think it was good at all and I was

1:11:33 really feeling rough about it especially because one I've been working

1:11:37 in crypto where there there's just constant stimulation you're making

1:11:40 and losing money you're placing bets

1:11:41 you're you're getting winnings you're responding

1:11:44 to messages all the time plus I was like

1:11:46 a blogger and you know I was very active on Twitter

1:11:48 and so anytime I wrote something I got immediate feedback

1:11:52 on it right like my my whole DOP mean system was fried

1:11:55 from all that period where I expected to get quick wins

1:11:57 for anything I worked on and then I switched to working

1:12:01 on this book and there are no quick wins right like

1:12:04 you're you're writing it alone for months and months and months

1:12:07 and like editing it and tweaking it you're not getting

1:12:09 to publish anything along the way the only bit of satisfaction

1:12:12 I had was my little spreadsheet where I tracked every writing

1:12:15 session and I could look at that and I could say

1:12:18 okay I did something today even though nobody else in the world

1:12:21 knows that I did anything this week that was really

1:12:24 hard it was a really really hard adjustment and so

1:12:27 and I didn't cope with it very well so when I finished

1:12:30 the first draft of the book I I what I

1:12:33 told myself was book talk is becoming a big thing I

1:12:36 should go build a book talk so that when the book

1:12:38 comes out I'll have that audience to promote the book

1:12:41 to I think what was really going on was that I

1:12:44 didn't feel good about myself and I needed to make

1:12:45 a number go up to like tell myself that I was

1:12:49 smart and capable and I I wanted to just go like

1:12:53 hack on something and so while the first draft was

1:12:56 sitting I started doing all these book talk videos and I

1:13:00 I me just like went bananas I got to like 50k

1:13:03 on Tik Tok in six weeks and then 100K on Instagram

1:13:06 in two or three months and it just kept going

1:13:08 and these videos kept going viral and I was getting like

1:13:10 millions of views it was like oh my God this is

1:13:12 so cool and then I said okay like I I need

1:13:14 to do something more with this because you can't make

1:13:16 that much money like just talking about books on Instagram and Tik

1:13:19 Tok so like now I can get into YouTube and I'm

1:13:22 going to do long YouTube videos about the books and I'm

1:13:23 going to do the podcast I'm going to do all

1:13:25 all these things I'm going to be like the big book

1:13:27 influencer and like this is going to be great and it

1:13:31 continued through that year while I kept working on the book

1:13:33 and then it got to Thanksgiving and at this point

1:13:38 I had finished crypto confidential I had turned it in I

1:13:42 was working on my sci-fi novel and over Thanksgiving I had

1:13:45 a very constrained schedule because my family was in town preschool

1:13:51 was off I only had a couple hour hours

1:13:53 of Day hours a day to work and I spent all

1:13:55 of that time making YouTube videos and at the end

1:13:58 of the week I realized like wait a second that's not my most

1:14:04 important work the most important work is writing like why

1:14:07 am I not writing to do this other thing and it

1:14:12 was just the shadow career all over again it was like

1:14:14 the crypto stuff all over again I was like wait I

1:14:15 got sucked into a different thing trying to make like

1:14:19 a short-term number go up trying to get like short-term Fame

1:14:21 whatever because I wasn't feeling good about the long-term thing

1:14:24 but actually the longterm thing is pretty good now like the book

1:14:27 is great I'm very proud of it I don't I

1:14:29 shouldn't be putting all my energy here because it's actually getting

1:14:32 in the way of me having success in the thing

1:14:35 that I care about and so I basically just quit I was

1:14:38 like it was like crypto I was like I literally

1:14:40 just can't let myself do this because I will get sucked

1:14:43 in it will distract me from the writing the the getting

1:14:45 to publish every every day is like making me feel good

1:14:49 but I should be feeling good about writing every day

1:14:51 and so I basically abandoned it and what I did in instead

1:14:56 which I think was actually kind of smart I'm glad

1:14:58 I did was when when the first draft of the Sci-Fi

1:15:01 novel was sitting I built an app where I could

1:15:03 track my writing sessions and like have other people follow me

1:15:07 and I could follow them and we could comment on each

1:15:08 other's writing so that we could all like feel good about

1:15:12 working on long-term writing instead of needing to like publish

1:15:15 something for the algorithm every day and that's actually been super

1:15:18 helpful I was surprised by what a difference that made

1:15:22 with like feeling good about working kind of in the dark every

1:15:25 day it's like if I could at least put a little

1:15:28 post up on prolifics saying like hey I wrote today then

1:15:32 that was reward enough and I didn't feel as pulled

1:15:34 to like pick up some other project to get some short-term wins

1:15:39 nice is that now uh public like people use it's

1:15:43 on the App Store now so oh sick yeah yeah and uh

1:15:47 my you know my my rule with that is it's

1:15:50 like only when I have free time side project I I

1:15:54 don't want it to turn into a big business big

1:15:57 company or anything um but you know I really enjoy hacking

1:16:00 on it when I need a break from writing it's something

1:16:04 it's a tool that I use every day and so even

1:16:06 if nobody else ever uses this thing it was kind

1:16:08 of a win to make it and if other people do

1:16:10 great like that's awesome I'd love to have more people

1:16:12 in there where I can like cheer them on for working

1:16:14 on their writing projects nice mate i' I've literally started

1:16:18 a new writing project as of like two days ago so I'm

1:16:20 G to start using prolific like literally right now oh amazing

1:16:23 thank you is this the new book uh this is potentially

1:16:26 the new book yeah I'm sort of like Tinker tinkering

1:16:28 away with with with some ideas thinking maybe self-publish or hybrid

1:16:34 rather than traditional cuz I don't want the pressure again anytime

1:16:39 soon I like the idea of every now then doing like

1:16:41 a big book with a publisher maybe but then like

1:16:43 in between doing like shorter shorter books a bit more Vib

1:16:48 just doing it because I want to do it because I

1:16:49 think it might hopefully be helpful rather than trying to play

1:16:51 The Prestige game which is what I was doing

1:16:53 with with the with the first book if I'm if I'm being honest

1:16:55 I think that's a great way to do it you know

1:16:59 and the doing doing the viby thing that feels more true

1:17:03 to you might end up doing better too like it wouldn't

1:17:05 shock me there's a good line I got I I was

1:17:08 talking to our mutual friend David Pell about this last night

1:17:12 um and he he recount he he heard of this story

1:17:15 where Jerry Seinfeld was at a party and and ran

1:17:20 into David lman yeah and he goes to David Letterman and he's

1:17:22 like hey bro you know I've got this new film

1:17:24 like I don't know what to dude do you have any

1:17:27 advice and David lman says um the biggest advice would be

1:17:31 fail at doing something you really want to do or what's

1:17:35 that effect fail at something you really want to do

1:17:38 I like that or aim to fail at making the movie

1:17:41 you really want to make which is kind of nice

1:17:42 cuz like aim to fail it's like oh okay well I'm

1:17:45 aiming to fail anyway so everything above that is like success

1:17:48 and making the movie I really want to make it's like

1:17:50 for me it's like aim to be not commercially successful

1:17:52 by writing a book that you really want to write and I

1:17:56 think ironically as as you say that's probably going to make

1:17:58 it reasonably commercially successful yeah

1:18:00 almost certainly iect almost certainly

1:18:03 um nice so now you're living the life of a dad

1:18:07 to two kids and a full-time writer how what does

1:18:10 your like workday routine look like amongst the kids stuff how

1:18:13 do you like balance the stuff yeah it's it's actually nice

1:18:17 because it provides so much structure to the day so all

1:18:21 what I like to do so I'm I'm I'm in promotion

1:18:24 mode for the book coming out so this period is

1:18:25 a little different but when I'm in writing mode I'll try

1:18:27 to get up at like 6ish and I'll look at what

1:18:31 I wrote the day before I'll look at my outline I

1:18:34 might read a book on writing or read a fiction book

1:18:37 that I'm trying to emulate the style of and but I

1:18:40 won't do any writing and then I'll just start you

1:18:44 know I'll prep lunch for school and I'll make some breakfast

1:18:46 for myself have some coffee get the kids up get

1:18:48 get our older daughter off to preschool and then at 9:

1:18:52 we have a nanny who comes and she

1:18:54 watches our our younger daughter during the day

1:18:57 so from about 9:30 to 4:30 I'm on in work mode and I'll usually go

1:19:02 to a CA at 9:30 and do my writing or actually I've been coming I've been doing

1:19:07 in the office more because I've got a treadmill

1:19:10 desk now which I I really like writing

1:19:12 on and so I'll I'll come here and I'll I'll write from like 9:30 to 12

1:19:16 but really my rule is that I have

1:19:19 to get 2500 new words down when I'm in drafting

1:19:24 mode so if I get that that done by 11 awesome like I'm free if it

1:19:28 takes until 1 then it takes until 1 but I don't let myself eat or do anything

1:19:35 else open any other windows on my computer

1:19:38 have any meetings literally anything until those words

1:19:43 are done and if I'm in editing phase

1:19:46 I just double it so get through a 5,000-word

1:19:49 chunk of the book for editing and that's like my those are my daily reps it's

1:19:54 like I've got to get that done before I can do anything else but when I'm

1:19:59 in when I'm in actual just like creation mode I then try to leave the afternoon

1:20:04 as open as possible I I take as few

1:20:07 meetings as humanly possible on the phone I'm

1:20:08 always happy to like meet up with somebody for lunch but I might go to the gym

1:20:13 go for a walk uh play with the creative

1:20:16 project do something unrelated to that but always

1:20:20 with a little less stimulation than I want so if I'm if I'm going for a walk

1:20:23 or going to the gym I won't listen to music I won't listen to a podcast

1:20:26 or have anything like that because that's when

1:20:28 like a lot of the real work happens

1:20:29 it's when the ideas pop up and so I'll just have my notebook or I'll take

1:20:33 voice notes on my phone and catch anything that comes up along the way and then

1:20:38 pick our older daughter up from preschool

1:20:41 at 4:35 have dinner uh hang out with them

1:20:43 until they go to bed and then from like 7 until 9:30 uh I go sit

1:20:49 I just hang out maybe watch an episode

1:20:51 or something read and it's a really nice routine

1:20:55 that sounds highly highly idilic yeah it's it's

1:20:57 Mak me excited to have kids it's great

1:21:00 yeah and like you know I'm I'm I'm really never working in the morning I'm never

1:21:04 working late at night like again this period

1:21:06 is weird because I'm going on podcasts and reaching

1:21:08 out to people and all of that um but when I'm in that routine it's great

1:21:11 I mean the the only downside of it is that it is so predictable that the days

1:21:15 kind of blend together a little bit but that's why it's nice to have you know

1:21:19 little social things and stuff during the work

1:21:22 day occasionally to to break it up and you

1:21:24 you also get the great ideas for their work

1:21:26 just chatting with friends about random things

1:21:28 too yeah all right so you've written

1:21:30 this book crypto confidential um what will if someone's

1:21:34 gotten to the end of this video podcast

1:21:36 um what will they get from reading the book

1:21:38 they'll have a lot of fun it it reads like uh it reads like a thriller

1:21:44 and that was very intentional I it's not a crypto 101 what is bitcoin what is

1:21:48 eth book it is a fun fast-paced firstperson

1:21:54 journey of working in the middle of the insanity

1:21:57 during the last crypto cycle both on the degenerate

1:22:01 gambling side and on the actually like

1:22:03 programming and Building Things side because I was

1:22:05 in I was in both worlds and you know that was really intentional I spent a lot

1:22:09 more time studying fiction than studying non-fiction because

1:22:13 this is kind of a dry topic you know crypto and like I don't think most

1:22:17 people want to read a crypto 101 book

1:22:19 but I wanted to write something that could teach

1:22:21 people a little bit about crypto but where

1:22:24 they would wouldn't feel like they were doing

1:22:26 any work to read it I wanted it to be like a beach read like a James

1:22:29 Patterson or a Stephen King or whatever where

1:22:32 people can just fly through it and that was

1:22:34 really really what I optimized it around so it's like sure you could try to run

1:22:39 the same Playbook next cycle and you know try to make a bunch of money

1:22:41 in crypto there's that knowledge in there too

1:22:44 um or you might realize that you really don't

1:22:46 want to be in that world and you're just going to like hold Bitcoin and eth

1:22:49 and like not look at it like you you get an education along the way

1:22:52 but the main thing you get is just

1:22:54 like a really fun story like you're just going to have a good time reading it uh

1:22:58 and so that's really the pitch more than anything

1:23:00 else love that I think that's a great place to have this thank you so much

1:23:02 for taking the time thanks for having me

1:23:04 on all right so that's it for this week's episode of Deep dive thank you so much

1:23:07 for watching or listening all the links and resources

1:23:08 that we mentioned in the podcast are going

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